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ninjaqutie
12-11-2009, 02:35 PM
I have no idea where to post this, so I just thought I'd toss it in here. We have a new guy in our dojo who isn't able to relax. When he grabs you, he squeezes the life out of your wrist. Last night there were 2 complete beginners, me and my husband (9 months) and another guy who's been there a year. So class was pretty laid back. I worked this previously mentioned stiff guy for tai no henko. Now, I actually enjoy working with this guy because there is no way I can do the technique unless my form is correct. Well, my form was correct, but he doesn't really move or get under your wrist. Well, due to his extremely strong grip, I could literally feel my radial and ulna bones bending.... and it HURT! My poor 5 inch circumference wrists just aren't meant to handle that amount of stress I guess.

Anyway, I just sort of put up with it because I didn't want him to think I didn't like working with him, that I couldn't work with him because he is stronger and lets face it "Can you loosen your grip? You are hurting me." just sounds like I am wimping out. I tried a few things to lessen the pain, but they didn't really help. I expanded my fingers apart to make my wrists/forearm a bit bigger, but that didn't really help. I ended up going from the low to the middle variation and that helped alleviate the pain a tinsy bit...

I asked sensei after class (he wasn't there during class, a sempai was teaching) if there was something I was doing wrong and he told me that it sounds like I was doing everything right. I'm hoping he can take a look next time I work this this guy. Anyway, I have bruising on both of my forearms today and both are a bit swollen. So.... I guess I am asking you guys, have you ever experienced this and how did you deal with the problem? I mean, you have to do the technique you are asked to work on, so it isn't like I am worried if it came to this grab and I had the choice to do other things.

Feedback please! :D

Michael Hackett
12-11-2009, 02:51 PM
There isn't anything wimpy about acknowledging your own pain and letting your partner know. You need to draw the line between exaggerating your pain and speaking up when it is too intense for the situation. I used to periodically speak with an elderly woman, in her eighties at the time, in various community meetings. She was the sweetest person and would hold your hand for minutes on end when shaking hands. She also had a grip stronger than anyone I ever met! I finally told her one evening that she was killing me and to loosen up - me in my full Sheriff's uniform with gunbelt, baton, light saber and all. She loosened her grip and explained that she had spent the first sixty years of her life on a dairy farm and milked cows by hand all of her life. Wimpy? Perhaps, but I could move my fingers the next day. Don't take unnecessary pain - be a carrier!

chillzATL
12-11-2009, 03:09 PM
Michael said it right. Tell the guy to loosen up.

Kevin Leavitt
12-11-2009, 03:15 PM
What he fails to understand is that if you are holding hard there, it means that you are open somewhere else. that "anchor" is his failure point. He believes that by applying as much force as he can there he is controlling you, more force, more control. However, it is not correct and he has an weakspot somewhere else.

Tell him to losen up if it hurts, first of all.

Secondly, realize that you are not a failure by having him do this. See if you can find the weakspot.

I've been doing this long enough now that I can find it pretty quickly...also, I never grab to hard like this as I know that if the other person is good, I just comitted a tactical error!

When someone grabs like that, it usually is telling about there level of experience and skill. so keep that in mind when looking for your own validation of training!

Maarten De Queecker
12-11-2009, 03:24 PM
What he fails to understand is that if you are holding hard there, it means that you are open somewhere else. that "anchor" is his failure point. He believes that by applying as much force as he can there he is controlling you, more force, more control. However, it is not correct and he has an weakspot somewhere else.

Tell him to losen up if it hurts, first of all.

Secondly, realize that you are not a failure by having him do this. See if you can find the weakspot.

I've been doing this long enough now that I can find it pretty quickly...also, I never grab to hard like this as I know that if the other person is good, I just comitted a tactical error!

When someone grabs like that, it usually is telling about there level of experience and skill. so keep that in mind when looking for your own validation of training!

What he said. People who are trying to control you by using a lot of force on one place, focus on that one spot and often forget that they are wide open for jabs, kicks, punches,... A quick atemi might startle him and cause loosen him to loosen the grip a bit.

Oh and your ego is not worth bent or broken bones. Just tell him if he's squeezing to hard.

Mark Gibbons
12-11-2009, 03:44 PM
... He believes that by applying as much force as he can there he is controlling you, more force, more control. ...


Or maybe he is trying to be a good uke but doesn't know how. Motivations are tricky things to figure out. I get lots of bruises from the beginners. Payback for my ukemi when I started I guess. I'm really big and folks think they have to squeeze harder. :)

I've had many scary people ask me to lighten up and try to connect with them. More interesting for them, much better training for me. I usually ask the folks that are leaving meaningless bruises to do something else. Meaningful bruises, well that's another thread.

... and lets face it "Can you loosen your grip? You are hurting me." just sounds like I am wimping out.


Doesn't sound like wimping out to me. Sounds like a reasonable alternative when dealing with a beginner. Much better than a broken or damaged arm.

Good luck,
Mark

Flintstone
12-11-2009, 04:10 PM
I thought that's the correct way to practice tai no henko. That's the way I expect uke to grab me.

ninjaqutie
12-11-2009, 04:15 PM
Sensei has told him on several occassions to abandon his strength, but he just replies that strength is all that he has. I can tell that he has a weak point and am able to do the techniques if my form is correct. I know it is something he will "grow out" of because he simply doesn't know any better yet. I do not believe he has any ill intensions. The sempai teaching last night kept showing how to stay connected to nage and showed what uke should do, but it just isn't clicking for him yet. No one else has mentioned him hurting them like he is me. They just say that he grabs hard. I guess it is because my wrists are so tiny. Who knows. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

Janet Rosen
12-11-2009, 04:34 PM
There is no reason for anybody at any level to create pain and bruising on a regular basis to a training partner. His motives, strengths, weaknesses are all irrelevent to this single key fact.

Alejandro, there is a difference between giving a strong, connected attack in order to immobilize someone (I'll note that to my mind, sometimes that is and sometimes that is not what tai no henko is "about") and actually hurting and bruising with regularity.

Maarten De Queecker
12-11-2009, 04:39 PM
Sensei has told him on several occassions to abandon his strength, but he just replies that strength is all that he has. I can tell that he has a weak point and am able to do the techniques if my form is correct. I know it is something he will "grow out" of because he simply doesn't know any better yet. I do not believe he has any ill intensions. The sempai teaching last night kept showing how to stay connected to nage and showed what uke should do, but it just isn't clicking for him yet. No one else has mentioned him hurting them like he is me. They just say that he grabs hard. I guess it is because my wrists are so tiny. Who knows. Thanks for the feedback everyone!

I do believe that there are people who can't work in certain ways. Where I train, there is a person who is unable to work slowly, even though he has been training for years. It took me two years to force myself to calm down a bit. On the other hand, there are people who just can't attack strongly, because it doesn't lie in that person's nature.

Still, if that guy said that the only thing he's got is strength, there might be some underlying issues, like lack of confidence, or not wanting to appear weak.

Everybody is different, and learning to cope with that is one of the funner, if not harder, sides of aikido.

Basia Halliop
12-11-2009, 04:47 PM
I don't think asking someone to do something a bit differently because it's hurting you needs to be such a big deal or embarrassing -- and although in this case it's just bruises so not that big a deal, personally I think it's good to get in the habit of feeling confident and relaxed about speaking up, and someday in the future it might save you a preventable injury or accident.

Of course sometimes we choose to go through pain because we feel like there's something useful we're learning or for some such a reason, but other times it's just pain and nothing useful enough to justify it, or sometimes it gets in the way of learning, or presages an injury about to happen. And in any case, it's purely up to you to choose when you want to go through it, it's not something you need to just get sucked along into by default.

I..e, I would try not to think of it as wimping out... try to think of it as standing up for yourself.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-11-2009, 05:17 PM
So when O Sensei did his famous grip of doom he was doing aikido wrong....

Anyway, imho, when training both partners have to consider the relative skill of each other. Gripping harder (or softer) than your partner can deal with is unproductive.

BWells
12-11-2009, 06:28 PM
I'm a big guy, 250 lbs +, a former power lifter and a nidan but I have fragile elbows. Lots of times I've asked much smaller men, women and kids to take it easy on a technique because they were tweaking my elbow. The is no shame in protecting yourself!!! Beyond not hurting your partner, your other primary responsibility is to not let yourself get hurt. So tell the guy to loosen up!

Also, as someone who I am sure did that to peoples arms when I started, I bet he just thinks he's giving a committed attack. He probably doesn't understand that when he holds that strongly he is giveing up relaxation and can't really feel what is happen in either his or your body. Ask him to try using an open palm and try to feel how you are moving. Do that with him too. It may cause something to click for him.:hypno:

Garth Jones
12-11-2009, 07:51 PM
I would bet that when O'Sensei grabbed with his 'grip of doom' he was establishing such a deep connection between his center and his partner's center that his partner was really stuck. That is a very different feeling from trying to squeeze the stuffing out of somebody's wrist. In the second case the result is much localized pain but no control over center.

When I am teaching a brand new person who grabs like that I tell them that the pain they are causing is counterproductive, because, as Kevin said earlier in this thread, they leave themselves open to all sorts of mischief. Also, beginners who grab like that tend to bend forward and watch my wrist - they are so focused on the grab that they forget about the rest of me. Unwise.

Anyway, tell the guy to lighten up if he's doing you harm. I'm not shy about that - I need my body to keep working right so that I can keep training, and keep working (I build custom furniture and I really need my hands and arms undamaged!). Also, if you can change your timing so that you are moving just before he clamps down, then he won't be able to as well. That should also serve to show him that there is more to aikido than a very static practice.

Cheers,
Garth

Janet Rosen
12-11-2009, 08:50 PM
Ask him to try using an open palm and try to feel how you are moving. Do that with him too. It may cause something to click for him.:hypno:

GREAT suggestion.

Shadowfax
12-11-2009, 09:21 PM
Honestly... just tell him he is hurting you and explain the potential injury you are concerned about. He probably has no idea and will be mortified to think he might have caused you real harm.

I have a very strong grip. Sensei often will use me to demonstrate how techniques work when someone strong is trying to prevent you from moving. lol he can't move me unless he gets the technique right when I get fully grounded.

Now I know that I have to adjust for different people and my tendency is more toward not grabbing hard enough out of concern I might hurt someone. That said one day I was working with someone new. (to me. She is Shodan I think) She being much smaller than me and older I was being very careful and not really grabbing her like I should. So she says to me, you need to grab harder and make a connection. At which point I tightened down on her to about half to three quarters strength...lol she kinda glared at me and said you don't have to leave bruises. Good thing I didn't go full strength...

Other people I practice with like me to be stronger and some need me to be lighter. I try to provide what each individual wants to work with. But I can't do that unless they give me some feedback.

Sometimes a strong person just needs a bit of help learning how to judge the power of his or her grip and adjust it according to the needs of their partner. This is something you can help him to learn.

And perhaps your sensei might show your fellow student why being strong can be a total disadvantage when attacking a well trained Aikidoka. I always apreciate getting those lessons myself.

I also fairly often work with guys who seem to think they have to try to lock me down and prevent me from moving. Fortunately I don't break too easy so while sometimes it does irritate me, more often I look at it as an opportunity to really explore and look for those holes. For me the big problem is always jut loosing tension and forgetting about that hand holding onto me. On the rare occasion someone actually does hurt me in a way that could be a problem I make sure to let them know to be more careful.

Carl Thompson
12-11-2009, 11:24 PM
So when O Sensei did his famous grip of doom he was doing aikido wrong....

I think he was doing aikido very rightly, using kokyu rather than muscular strength (although he also had this too for much of his life).

Anyway, imho, when training both partners have to consider the relative skill of each other. Gripping harder (or softer) than your partner can deal with is unproductive.

Definitely. I doubt Osensei gripped a child the same way he would grip an adult. I think he probably gave everyone what they needed to learn.

Abasan
12-12-2009, 12:10 AM
Its good he's earnest, but its not good if he hurts you. Everyone's physical make up is different. Since you're doing kihon where waza is done from static, some allowances must be made. Therefore I suggest you tell him to start from 50% power or less and work your way upwards.

Relaxing your arm and breathing out through it would help. Also if you move him, you must not use your hand like a lever. The pain is an indication that you're fighting him or tensing up. Correct movement is relaxed but extended.

Linda Eskin
12-12-2009, 01:07 AM
Look at the position of his hands, too. Is he grabbing straight across his palm, like you'd do when lifting a weight, or diagonally, with the main part of the grab in the last 3 fingers, like you'd hold a bokken? I was told to do the latter. It gives you a very secure grip, with less force/pain. I've notice when new people grab straight across my wrist, there's more sort of bone-to-bone contact. The connection is wobbly, and way more painful than the bokken-like grip. (I hope that made sense... It's bedtime. Long day.)

Flintstone
12-12-2009, 05:55 AM
The way I see it is: if you don't use the "grip of doom", your partner will never ever learn tai no henko. Or any te hodoki for that matter...

Every other day I come home with bruises in my wrists, forarms, etc. That's what we do. We do Budo.

Of course is not about grabbing 100% full strength to a complete beginner, but hard enough for him not to be able to move if technique is not right.

I've been training long years with "grip of tin" and never learnt tai no henko until I received the "grip of iron" from the Iwama guys, then the Yoseikan people. Shortly after, I left the tin-guys.

My point is that unless you traing the right attacks, you'll never learn the right defenses. Maybe not from day one but from day two. Definitely 9 months is too draged.

Carl Thompson
12-12-2009, 07:41 AM
Of course is not about grabbing 100% full strength to a complete beginner, but hard enough for him not to be able to move if technique is not right.

I really like this way of training, especially when you see the resultant effect of a small woman moving freely in the iron grip of a large male uke. But it doesn't sound like they're doing the kotai waza Osensei left in Iwama or the tehodoki of Yoseikan/Seifukai. Tin or iron, they still need awase.

Carrie Campbell
12-12-2009, 07:51 AM
I have no idea where to post this, so I just thought I'd toss it in here. We have a new guy in our dojo who isn't able to relax. When he grabs you, he squeezes the life out of your wrist. Last night there were 2 complete beginners, me and my husband (9 months) and another guy who's been there a year. So class was pretty laid back. I worked this previously mentioned stiff guy for tai no henko. Now, I actually enjoy working with this guy because there is no way I can do the technique unless my form is correct. Well, my form was correct, but he doesn't really move or get under your wrist. Well, due to his extremely strong grip, I could literally feel my radial and ulna bones bending.... and it HURT! My poor 5 inch circumference wrists just aren't meant to handle that amount of stress I guess.

Anyway, I just sort of put up with it because I didn't want him to think I didn't like working with him, that I couldn't work with him because he is stronger and lets face it "Can you loosen your grip? You are hurting me." just sounds like I am wimping out. I tried a few things to lessen the pain, but they didn't really help. I expanded my fingers apart to make my wrists/forearm a bit bigger, but that didn't really help. I ended up going from the low to the middle variation and that helped alleviate the pain a tinsy bit...

I asked sensei after class (he wasn't there during class, a sempai was teaching) if there was something I was doing wrong and he told me that it sounds like I was doing everything right. I'm hoping he can take a look next time I work this this guy. Anyway, I have bruising on both of my forearms today and both are a bit swollen. So.... I guess I am asking you guys, have you ever experienced this and how did you deal with the problem? I mean, you have to do the technique you are asked to work on, so it isn't like I am worried if it came to this grab and I had the choice to do other things.

Feedback please! :D

Ashley, is it painful as this partner grabs? or when you try to move? or both? I ask because it seems like there might be motion if the bones are moving. If your partner is just plain squeezing, that serves no purpose.

But, if it's just painful when you try to move, then keep in mind, I'm not an instructor... But if I may, I would suggest trying to ignore your wrist completely as if it didn't exist. Try to move from your hips; extend from your center. Just like the bokken is an extension of your arm, your wrist and hands and fingers are an extension of your arm and of your center. The bokken is pretty straight and now so is your arm... And this type of practice could be helpful for improving technique.

My instructor has a way of locking my wrist with his "iron clamp" that isn't necessarily painful, but completely immobilizes my wrist (and hand). It is definitely uncomfortable and awkward. It's only painful if I try to pull on my wrist or move through it. Think of a much larger circle, and move/extend along it with your hips, perhaps pushing under/through your elbow, and beyond along the circle. Do not focus on the wrist or moving the wrist. The wrist is just part of your arm.


~my two cents. Perhaps this is not the case in this situation. In any case, best wishes for a happy solution.

dalen7
12-12-2009, 08:08 AM
I would recommend telling him to loosen up... not worth getting hurt over and no shame in it.

Obviously he lacks the bigger picture of what's going on with the practicing of techniques... and it sounds like he would benefit if the instructor would clarify a few points for him.

Maybe he would change his mind if a bigger guy came up and put their knuckles into his wrist to 'escape', and while doing kotegaeshi they rammed their elbow into his inner-bicep. [All techniques we learn, though I rarely do those forms.]

Anyway, the best to you in your training...

Peace

dAlen

Michael Douglas
12-12-2009, 09:25 AM
It's great that there is a student who CAN grip like buggery, just don't be shy to ask him not to grip YOU too hard.

Kevin Leavitt
12-12-2009, 07:39 PM
I can grip a wrist, hold it tight, tight enough where you can't get out, yet it won't cause any pain...you simply can't get away from it unless you figure out how to uproot my ground path.

That grip though, does not involve squeezing with maximum pressure at the palm/hand...focusing all your Ki/energy in that one point I believe means you have opennings/weaknesses elsewhere.

Shadowfax
12-12-2009, 08:33 PM
That grip though, does not involve squeezing with maximum pressure at the palm/hand...focusing all your Ki/energy in that one point I believe means you have opennings/weaknesses elsewhere.

lol it sure does.

Flintstone
12-13-2009, 06:39 AM
lol it sure does.
Indeed. But that's not the point of tai no henko. And it's of no use in the learning process. Carry a gun and not matter how hard uke's grabbing... Don't forget it's an exercise and a basic fundamental for many techniques. No matter if it leaves a suki somewhere else (as it does).

Shadowfax
12-13-2009, 07:49 AM
let me just expand on my statement. lol Sensei has had me purposely grab him and lock down in this manner specifically so he can show me and other students that this does indeed create weakness elsewhere. I never bring that grip out unless the person I am working with, usually the black belts, specifically asks for it. For us lower ranks that grip is simply not going to really help their, or my training, when we are still trying to learn the basic excercise.

Having had the experienced of being sent flying in spite of this kind of grip several times, I can honestly say that, yes it sure does create weakness elsewhere. :D

ninjaqutie
12-14-2009, 11:40 AM
Let me answer a few questions for all of you.

1.) I am used to bruises and they are so frequent they may as well be tattoos. Most people in the dojo grab firmly, yet they also remain relaxed and move with you.
2.) The grip itself doesn't hurt. Uncomfortable? A bit. Painful? Not really.
3.) I am able to do the technique with him if my form is correct.
4.) So far I have only had this "bending bone" pain in my ulnar and radial bones for tai no henko with him (never happened with anyone else) and I have worked with him on several occassions with various techniques (which this has never happened before). Sensei pairs me up with a lot of the beginners (I think because he knows I can get tossed/slammed around without getting hurt)
5.) People frequently clamp down on my wrist/forarm and I have never had an issue.... up until now that is.
6.) In the case of tai no henko that night, once we turned, we were to stay there with our arms stretched out and settle for a bit so the sempai could walk around and check our form.
7.) I'm fairly certain that if I didn't have to stay in that settling spot for a bit it wouldn't have been too much of an issue.
8.) Not keeping my arm in the proper location and letting him pull it away would not benefit me or him in training, so I kept my form.

Anyway, after four days of rest, my arms are finally feeling better and they aren't swollen anymore. I think I am going to make it a point to work with this guy again Tuesday for tai no henko and see if I can't figure something out. Maybe it is me.

Thanks for the tips, ideas and thoughts. I will be taking some of them into consideration.

Demetrio Cereijo
12-14-2009, 03:33 PM
This thread reminded me about Takemikazuchi vs Takeminakata tale in the Kojiki.

Worth reading. ;)

RED
12-16-2009, 09:50 PM
Anyway, I just sort of put up with it because I didn't want him to think I didn't like working with him, that I couldn't work with him because he is stronger and lets face it "Can you loosen your grip? You are hurting me." just sounds like I am wimping out..



Either tell him to cut it out, or don't work out with him. If he doesn't know you are hurt you can't expect him to change. If he knows and keeps doing it, decline to train with him. There is no shame and rejecting the training of some one who is belligerently disregarding your safety. :mad:

Flintstone
12-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Either tell him to cut it out, or don't work out with him. If he doesn't know you are hurt you can't expect him to change. If he knows and keeps doing it, decline to train with him. There is no shame and rejecting the training of some one who is belligerently disregarding your safety. :mad:
We can connect this to the thread about a muslim or an orthodox jew choosing not to traing with women?

Stormcrow34
12-17-2009, 11:59 AM
I've often been reminded that you learn alot from the new people in terms of self defense because they attack in a way that is natural to them, and sometimes/oftentimes completely unexpected to tori. This is a great learning tool not only in the way you respond to their attack, but also the way they respond to your counter attack.

Also I think it's a good idea for people to recognize the difference between pain and injury.

Just my two cents.

ninjaqutie
12-17-2009, 05:48 PM
Also I think it's a good idea for people to recognize the difference between pain and injury.

Just my two cents.

I agree with you, but when you feel like your bones are literally bending and you wonder how much more stress it can put up with, I think that is a bit more then not wanting to deal with pain. I'm all for feeling some amount of pain during training (I want to know what it feels like). Sure, there is a difference between pain and injury, but it can be a very fine line and both can occur at the same time.

RED
12-18-2009, 06:53 PM
We can connect this to the thread about a muslim or an orthodox jew choosing not to traing with women?

Maybe... :confused:

RED
12-18-2009, 06:59 PM
I agree with you, but when you feel like your bones are literally bending and you wonder how much more stress it can put up with, I think that is a bit more then not wanting to deal with pain. I'm all for feeling some amount of pain during training (I want to know what it feels like). Sure, there is a difference between pain and injury, but it can be a very fine line and both can occur at the same time.

I think flat out, that's bad ukemi. A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.

Flintstone
12-19-2009, 06:46 PM
I think flat out, that's bad ukemi. A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.
And what's the purpose of that?

mickeygelum
12-19-2009, 11:00 PM
I think flat out, that's bad ukemi. A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.


Mr. Villanueva,

There is no useful purpose. It provides nothing of value, except a false sense of accomplishment. It is a prime example of why others think that Aikido is worthless.

Just my opinion, based on many observations.

Mickey

BWells
12-19-2009, 11:39 PM
Interesting, I do Xing Yi as well as Aikido so work a lot on hitting and power, yet I find using an open palm sometimes in my training for connection really helps on my feeling what is happening with my training partner and my own relaxation. I would not want to do that all the time, but just working on feeling connection and how my partner reacts is valuable too in my opinion.

Linda Eskin
12-20-2009, 01:58 AM
... A good uke should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. Practicing connection like that really did help my connection from uke's side at least.

My experience has been the same as Maggie's. Exercises like these have been very valuable for me.

It's fine if Mickey doesn't get anything worthwhile from them, but it's unfortunate that he dismisses them as useless for everyone.

Flintstone
12-20-2009, 05:38 AM
I agree with Michael here. That's training uke to fall, not to be safe. And that's training tori to get a feel of super-power that will put him into trouble later on th3 str33t!!

Don't get me wrong. Sensitivity exercises are great, Shinogi Undo and the like, but we're talking Tai no Henko here, isn't it?

mickeygelum
12-20-2009, 06:59 AM
To All,

First, had the statement been ..

" a good shite or tori should be able to keep connection without their fingers around your wrist, just the palm touching. "

Then I would readily concurred with the statement. Otherwise, I have already made my observation.

Train well,

Mickey

mickeygelum
12-20-2009, 07:37 AM
I started classes on May 5th, 2009, and am looking forward to a very long and interesting journey.

My experience has been the same as Maggie's. Exercises like these have been very valuable for me.

It's fine if Mickey doesn't get anything worthwhile from them, but it's unfortunate that he dismisses them as useless for everyone.

Ms Eskin,

I do not dismiss the training exercise described, for beginners, such as yourself. I use something similar with my students.

I hope you use it as learning tool as it is meant to be, not an enabler of live Aikido.

Also, your paraphrasing of the original statement changes the dynamic.

Train well,

Mickey

Linda Eskin
12-20-2009, 09:50 AM
Mickey - Thank you for the clarification.

I understood you to say "practicing connection like that" serves "... no useful purpose. It provides nothing of value, except a false sense of accomplishment. It is a prime example of why others think that Aikido is worthless."

I'm not sure how I changed the dynamic of what you said. It wasn't my intent.

Cheers,
Linda

Stormcrow34
12-20-2009, 01:28 PM
I agree with you, but when you feel like your bones are literally bending and you wonder how much more stress it can put up with, I think that is a bit more then not wanting to deal with pain. I'm all for feeling some amount of pain during training (I want to know what it feels like). Sure, there is a difference between pain and injury, but it can be a very fine line and both can occur at the same time.

Sounds like the man has a very strong grip. First I would ask him how he is able to grab so hard! The last descripion I heard of someone with a grip that bends the radius and ulna together...I believe that was a story about O' Sensei!

The bottom line in regards to your long term training, if you feel like you are going to be injured (whatever the situation) then just ask them (over and over if you have to ) to please lighten up. Sometimes people don't realize how hard they are being on their partner.

RED
12-20-2009, 09:14 PM
And what's the purpose of that?

To practice connection.

Aikido is an art filled with assumptions. One great assumption, that I think some people over look, is that Nage is to assume that Uke is not a hunk of meat meant for throwing. Uke is assumed to be an intelligent, practiced and committed martial artist themselves. Uke's job is not to get thrown. His job is to move in a way in which that does not break blending, not only for the sake of Nage, but for the sake of looking for an opening. He is to move in a way that will protects his center, while also continuously attacking Nage's center.
Uke's job is assure that Nage earns their right to be Nage. With proper connection and blending, Uke is in a prime martial spot to take control, counter and be Nage himself.

RED
12-20-2009, 09:19 PM
Ms Eskin,

I do not dismiss the training exercise described, for beginners, such as yourself. I use something similar with my students.

I hope you use it as learning tool as it is meant to be, not an enabler of live Aikido.

Also, your paraphrasing of the original statement changes the dynamic.

Train well,

Mickey

To tell Uke that they aren't expected to constantly be practicing Aikido themselves and just be a hunk of meat to be thrown, is neglecting a major assumption of Aikido: Uke is a trained attacker.
Keeping connection is about not falling behind in the technique. An Uke that falls behind will fail at attacking the Nage's center,and be dominated quickly. An Uke that can not attack Nage's center is not an Uke... just a hunk of meat.

mickeygelum
12-20-2009, 11:48 PM
To tell Uke that they aren't expected to constantly be practicing Aikido themselves and just be a hunk of meat to be thrown, is neglecting a major assumption of Aikido: Uke is a trained attacker.
Keeping connection is about not falling behind in the technique. An Uke that falls behind will fail at attacking the Nage's center,and be dominated quickly. An Uke that can not attack Nage's center is not an Uke... just a hunk of meat.


Ms Schill,

If taisabaki and kuzushi are realized, uke is "just a hunk of meat", whether they are a trained martial artist or not.

Train well,

Mickey

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 04:15 AM
To practice connection.

Aikido is an art filled with assumptions. One great assumption, that I think some people over look, is that Nage is to assume that Uke is not a hunk of meat meant for throwing. Uke is assumed to be an intelligent, practiced and committed martial artist themselves.
So, if uke is not "an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist", our Aikido won't work? That's a no buy for me. Also, your BIG assumption is that uke will blend, keep connection and look for a suki. What about an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist that breaks, create space, look for a suki and hits? Your assumption is, most probably, that uke is an aikidoka too, not an IPCMA.

dps
12-21-2009, 06:50 AM
Uke attacks.
Nage (tori) responds by blending and taking complete control of uke ( kuzushi).
At this point uke should not have any ability to do anything.
It is all under nage's control.

Unless you are not training for martial effectiveness.

David

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 07:10 AM
Uke attacks.
Nage (tori) responds by blending and taking complete control of uke ( kuzushi).
At this point uke should not have any ability to do anything.
It is all under nage's control.

Unless you are not training for martial effectiveness.

David
+1 and amen to that.

RED
12-21-2009, 09:50 AM
Ms Schill,

If taisabaki and kuzushi are realized, uke is "just a hunk of meat", whether they are a trained martial artist or not.

Train well,

Mickey

That is an incorrect assumption.

RED
12-21-2009, 09:51 AM
So, if uke is not "an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist", our Aikido won't work? That's a no buy for me. Also, your BIG assumption is that uke will blend, keep connection and look for a suki. What about an intelligent, practiced and commited martial artist that breaks, create space, look for a suki and hits? Your assumption is, most probably, that uke is an aikidoka too, not an IPCMA.

I don't think we are speaking of the same training aspect at all.

RED
12-21-2009, 10:16 AM
I do take issue with a dojo that doesn't train Uke to also be a martial artist. Uke shouldn't be easy to throw after all, not a hunk of meat waiting to receive the technique. They should be attacking Nage's center to the ground. Uke is assumed to be a Budo trained martial artist. The assumptions any standing jujitsu, Aikido included views the attacker in this sense. Aikijujitsu is our father art. The assumption there is that you are a Budoka that lost his sword, defending against an army of armed men. Thus Uke is trained to react and attack like a Budo trained attacker.
I have issue with a dojo that doesn't view Uke as a martial artist, counter part to the Nage.

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 10:36 AM
Just DO NOT assume! What you are describing is uke as an Aikidoka, not as a trained martial artist! Would you describe a Kali fighter, BJJer, karateka, fencer as a "non trained martial artist"? None of them will "keep the connection with the palm of their hands"...

I do train in Aikijujutsu Yoseikan Ha and we DO NOT assume that uke will keep the connection. Never. It is TORI who will keep the connection, no matter what uke does or tries to do. Irimi, atemi, kuzushi... and then tsukiri and kake are just the icing on the cake. Should you assume uke will "keep the connection", what will you do if he doesn't?

No assumptions, please.

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 10:40 AM
I don't think we are speaking of the same training aspect at all.
Most probably. I'm talking Budo.

RED
12-21-2009, 12:00 PM
Most probably. I'm talking Budo.

We are not talking about the same aspect of training, there must be a 'communication' issue here. You don't seem to be familiar with what I mean when I say the word "assumption" in relation to a martial art.

Either way, I can tell what a wonderful Aikidoka by your ability to communicate peacefully.

I'm not fighting with you, I'll let you be right, if you just piss off.

mickeygelum
12-21-2009, 12:06 PM
Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote:
Ms Schill,

If taisabaki and kuzushi are realized, uke is "just a hunk of meat", whether they are a trained martial artist or not.

Train well,

Mickey

Maggie Schill wrote:

That is an incorrect assumption.

Ms Schill,

No wonder no one wants to train with you. You have'nt a clue.

Mickey

RED
12-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Ms Schill,

No wonder no one wants to train with you. You have'nt a clue.

Mickey

:cool: it's cool dude.

Stormcrow34
12-21-2009, 12:27 PM
Let's all just calm down and before someone gets hurt.....please...put...down...the....keyboards.

Hi Maggie :)

I hope you don't mind if I call you Maggie? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I am curious about what you mean by "assumptions". Perhaps there is some confusion in terminology, or perhaps there is some confusion between the purpose of sensitivity excercises and practical applications? What do you think? Could you elaborate? Thanks.

RED
12-21-2009, 12:36 PM
Hey let's just all calm down and before someone gets hurt.....please...put...down...the....keyboards.

Hi Maggie :)

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but I am curious about what you mean by "assumptions". Could you elaborate? Thanks.

Hi,

I was taught that every martial art was designed with a set of assumptions. Meaning every martial art reacts and does what it does, based upon what it was designed to fight against. Example, some karate arts take low stances because they assume the fighting is done on mountainous areas. In Aikido we don't wrestle on the ground like BJJ because there is an assumption that the uke is armed, and we are not. That assumption comes from the roots of aikijujitsu. The word assumption is referring to the reason in which a martial art was designed the way it was, for the purposes it was designed for. Aikido is no different. We have an assumption that Uke is not an idiot, or a thing you throw. In the traditional sense, Uke was trained in Budo. Therefore, I believe dojo should train Uke as martial artists, not just train them as bean bags for Nage.

The connection training I was talking about is what we do for children and 7th kyu, to teach them how to keep up with movement, for the purpose of never falling behind(which can cause you to be dominated) and for the purpose of creating openings for the Uke to get ahead of a technique so they can counter.

Stormcrow34
12-21-2009, 01:19 PM
I think I understand what you're saying. But I have to agree with some of the others here that assumptions in terms of practical application are bad. Period.

I know when I practice Jiyu Randori (free randori) if I try to anticipate what an attack will be from uke and decide in advance my technique for said anticipated attack...well things don't usually work out so well. BUT, if I stay in the moment and act as things are unfolding, I usually do ok because I have not made an assumption and I am responding to what is actually happening, not what I think will happen.

Here is a video of a highly skilled brazilian fighter. What would you assume about this guy before watching the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9ug4IWJn4

dps
12-21-2009, 01:24 PM
Whether uke is "an intelligent, practiced and committed martial artist"or he is not, once uke attacks, if his balance is broken and nage takes control. Uke should not have any choice or ability to maintain a connection. Only nage has that.

If there is no or incomplete kuzushi then there is an opportunity for uke to become nage by being physically sensitive to nage's failure to have complete kuzushi. In this sense there is value of the sensitivity training you are talking about.

David
( you don't have to call me Mr. Mitty, just call me Walter :))

RED
12-21-2009, 01:44 PM
I think I understand what you're saying. But I have to agree with some of the others here that assumptions in terms of practical application are bad. Period.

I know when I practice Jiyu Randori (free randori) if I try to anticipate what an attack will be from uke and decide in advance my technique for said anticipated attack...well things don't usually work out so well. BUT, if I stay in the moment and act as things are unfolding, I usually do ok because I have not made an assumption and I am responding to what is actually happening, not what I think will happen.

Here is a video of a highly skilled brazilian fighter. What would you assume about this guy before watching the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9ug4IWJn4

I agree with this principle as far as an experienced Aikidoka. Experience Aikidoka need to be trained in intuitive response, and that is the beauty in giwaza training. I never said the word "assumption" as in we assume how the uke is gonna attack. I meant it in reference to how the art was established, and why it was established. All arts are based on elemental assumptions.
However when I brought this training connection practice up, it was in reference to the 7th kyu that was bending the poor girl's bones. Again, I introduced it as something we do for children and beginners to train in proper connection.

RED
12-21-2009, 01:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9ug4IWJn4

Well, if a guy attacked me and brought an octagon ring with him, that would be a dead give away of his intentions lol :D

Stormcrow34
12-21-2009, 01:51 PM
If there is no or incomplete kuzushi then there is an opportunity for uke to become nage by being physically sensitive to nage's failure to have complete kuzushi. In this sense there is value of the sensitivity training you are talking about.



I think the source of the confusion is that Maggie is thinking in terms sensitivity training and some of the others here and myself are thinking in terms of martial effectiveness.

I'm not sure if confusing these two aspects of training and their purpose is ever a good idea. :)

RED
12-21-2009, 01:56 PM
I think the source of the confusion is that Maggie is thinking in terms sensitivity training and some of the others here and myself are thinking in terms of martial effectiveness.

I'm not sure if confusing these two aspects of training and their purpose is ever a good idea. :)

Exactly. LOL Again, this was an exercise we do with children and 7th kyus... not experienced black belts.(Then again, you are never too experienced to work on basics from time to time.)

Stormcrow34
12-21-2009, 01:57 PM
Well, if a guy attacked me and brought an octagon ring with him, that would be a dead give away of his intentions lol :D

Hello again Maggie. My point is that Lyoto Machida is Brazillian, but his dad is a Japanese Shotokan karate sensei and he uses mostly stand up tactics to win his fights with great results...:eek:

RED
12-21-2009, 01:59 PM
Hello again Maggie. My point is that Lyoto Machida is Brazillian, but his dad is a Japanese Shotokan karate sensei and he uses mostly stand up tactics to win his fights with great results...:eek:

:eek:

mathewjgano
12-21-2009, 02:29 PM
:DUke attacks.
Nage (tori) responds by blending and taking complete control of uke ( kuzushi).
At this point uke should not have any ability to do anything.
It is all under nage's control.

Unless you are not training for martial effectiveness.

David

I think this makes a nice ideal, but isnt there a gradient at play here? Or can we perhaps think of some form of "quasi-kuzushi" which allows someone in a superior position/structure, to maintain initiative?

At any rate, I've felt similar sensations as expressed by the OP. I've tended to just give my arm away as nage and with certain folks this has led to feelings like my bone bending or of muscle wanting to pull away from the bone. My best response was to blend internally...not that I have any real sense of what that means, just that I took a moment to "recenter" myself which involved both relaxing and activation. I wasn't able to completely make the pain go away, but it did seem to diminish slightly.
Personally I see no harm in saying, "my arm really hurts, can we try this with less intensity?" Different schools have different attitudes on this though. In my inexpert view, there is a fine line between the pain that is useful and the pain that is harmful, but it's important to walk that line a bit in a serious study of budo; to become familiar with the difference. It's hard to develop an injured part of the body because whatever is injured cannot be used fully. It may help you to connect with and improve other parts (the value of working through the pain in my mind), but I'd personally rather be viewed as a sissy than to have an injury. When I played soccer in highschool it was on astroturf and I'm about as flat-footed as a human can be. I took it easy whenever I was hurt and it bugged a couple of my teem-mates, but when you're 17 and can barely walk up a flight of stairs after a game, you have to make the judgement call. I'm sure it's been suggested but I'd recommend seeing a doc to make sure your bones don't have any issues and go from there. You could also perhaps work on conditioning the bones through impact training, which as I recall is the best way to improve bone density...and which, assuming damage wasn't being done, you might have been getting without even trying!:D
Good luck and gambatte!

Flintstone
12-21-2009, 06:37 PM
We are not talking about the same aspect of training, there must be a 'communication' issue here. You don't seem to be familiar with what I mean when I say the word "assumption" in relation to a martial art.

Either way, I can tell what a wonderful Aikidoka by your ability to communicate peacefully.

I'm not fighting with you, I'll let you be right, if you just piss off.
Bullshit, I say.

dps
12-21-2009, 06:49 PM
I feel a thread about to be closed. :sorry:

David

RED
12-21-2009, 08:06 PM
Bullshit, I say.

*bows-- left hand, right hand, eyes tuned down*:D

LMAO

mickeygelum
12-21-2009, 10:40 PM
This thread is so far off topic...

Flintstone
12-22-2009, 03:46 AM
That girl is out of topic both by practicing a Budo as a hobby and by her wording in my quotation.

akiy
12-22-2009, 10:33 AM
Thread closed due to proliferation of disrespectful conduct.

-- Jun