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shao guo
04-09-2002, 08:15 PM
hi, i am new here...i am interesting about aikido...i just want to research martial arts since my two friends took the martial art lesson, tae kwon do and chung do kwan. i decided to pick other martial art than korean martial art.

i would like to question about aikido.

-how long do you have to complete aikido lesson?

-how many levels do aikido teach?

-will aikido affect people with scolicist (unstraight back spine) to get worst?

thanks
-shao

guest1234
04-09-2002, 10:45 PM
Hi Shao,

I'll try to answer your questions, but they vary according to style and instructor:

1. If you mean how long is a class, usually an hour, someitmes 90 minutes up to 3 hours. If you mean how long does one train, a lifetime... a lot of folks posting here measure their training in decades (not me, of course :eek: ) if you mean how long until you make shodan (first degree black belt), that really varies by style/teacher/your effort. I know one guy who took 2 years. I know many others 5-10 years.

2. Varies. Most have 6 or 7 white belt levels, and I think there are up to 10 black belt levels...

3. I don't think it will make scoliosis worse, but ask your own doctor about your particular case. Depending on the degree of scoliosis, some rolls may be a bit more difficult or painful, or your doctor may not want you to do them. If you had surgery/rods, he may not want you to do Aikido at all... best to check with your doctor on that one.

Greg Jennings
04-10-2002, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by ca
Hi Shao,

I'll try to answer your questions, but they vary according to style and instructor:

1. If you mean how long is a class, usually an hour, someitmes 90 minutes up to 3 hours. If you mean how long does one train, a lifetime... a lot of folks posting here measure their training in decades (not me, of course :eek: ) if you mean how long until you make shodan (first degree black belt), that really varies by style/teacher/your effort. I know one guy who took 2 years. I know many others 5-10 years.

2. Varies. Most have 6 or 7 white belt levels, and I think there are up to 10 black belt levels...

3. I don't think it will make scoliosis worse, but ask your own doctor about your particular case. Depending on the degree of scoliosis, some rolls may be a bit more difficult or painful, or your doctor may not want you to do them. If you had surgery/rods, he may not want you to do Aikido at all... best to check with your doctor on that one.

Just wanted to add to Colleen's comments.

1a. The length of time of each aikido class is entirely dependent on a given dojo. The shortest I've seen was 50 minutes, the longest 3 hours. 1 to 2 hours seems the norm.

1b. Aikido can be practiced in different ways as you age. I'm in a slam-happy stage right now, but people often train into their 70's, some into their 80's. My instructor tells students to "just come and do what you feel comfortable doing".

2a. The standard grading system for adults in the Aikikai (the main line of aikido) has 6 mudansha (under black belt) and 8 yudansha (black belt) grades. There were formerly 10 yudansha grades, but no more.

2b. Don't worry about the grading system. If your doctor thinks it's OK for you to train in aikido, just train and enjoy yourself. Everything else is almost irrelevant.

3. Listen to Colleen about talking to your doctor. She doesn't say so in her post, but she's a medical doctor herself.

Best Regards,

Bruce Baker
04-10-2002, 04:47 PM
Some Schools are belt happy, ten Kyu levels, while USAF has only five, with the normal ten levels of Black Belt.

There is a fifteenth dan in Karate, James Mitose, but that was because of inside promotions within Karate, so he says to them, if you guys are sixth and seventh dans, I must be a fifteenth dan. And in the encyclopedia of MA, he is.

Both my Karate Teacher and his daughter had curvatures of the spine, which sometimes translated into sitting out if pains persisted, but on the whole, a good mat with careful practice should strengthen muscles rather than weaken them? He just stopped MA at 47 years old, other health concerns though.
My present teacher is 70, and he is Stan Laurel to my Oliver Hardy, but he has no problem throwing me.

Since you are on the Aikiweb, you can check out the different schools in your area, or find numerous Aikido sites that have information about their particular style, teachers, and how their classes are run.

Most people experience some types of knee, back, or wrist injury, but I assure you they will not be as severe as the injurys I endured from Karate practice. In fact, there might be minor pain but no black and blue if the techniques are done on pressure points rather than muscle strikes ... pressure points don't leave black and blue, muscles do. Plus you get to fall down and get up, without the demon alcohol ...

I have only one word for Aikido, FUN!

Greg Jennings
04-11-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Some Schools are belt happy, ten Kyu levels, while USAF has only five, with the normal ten levels of Black Belt.


Bruce,

The USAF does not have yudansha levels of its own. They come from the Aikikai.

It is true that there are some organizations the offer their own yudansha grades in addition to, or as an alternative to, the Aikikai grades, but the USAF isn't one of them.

Just to be 100% accurate, it is my understanding that Kozuo Chiba Shihan of the USAF-West does have a separate organization that offers such rank, but it's not the USAF.

There were formerly 10 yudansha grades in the Aikikai. Sometime after Moriteru Ueshiba Doshu took the reins, the rank structure was changed to have only 8 yudansha grades.

I have that directly from the director of the International Aikido Federation.

I have no idea of the USAF's kyu policies but I just surfed ten USAF dojo sites with testing policies listed and they all had tests for 5th kyu.

Since they have a test for 5th kyu, there is something below 5th kyu. No kyu, 6th kyu, call it what you will.


Both my Karate Teacher and his daughter had curvatures of the spine, <SNIP> but on the whole, a good mat with careful practice should strengthen muscles rather than weaken them?

I don't mean to be rude; I've kept my peace till this. But that you would counter the advice of a medical doctor about a potentially serious medical condition is very uncool and I have to say something.

Bruce, it seems to me that you are prone to offer opinions on topics which you don't know enough about to have opinions. You and others on this forum would be better served by you emptying your cup.

PS: WTF does James Mitose, Karate, etc. have to do with aikido or the price of eggs in China. I used a period there on purpose. It was not really a question.

Sincerely,

guest1234
04-11-2002, 10:52 PM
Hi Greg:D

So why were the dan levels changed, do you know? And how do the ranks go then, just the current higher ranks eventually disappear through attrition and the ones already at 8 just stay there? Do folks readjust their standards for what then constitutes say a sandan, or is the top level just lopped off?:confused:

ps, I personally like the sound of No-Kyu level, but is there a standard way to refer to the pre-first test category (you'd think, since I've hit this level so many times with my wanderings, I'd know, but I don't)

warriorwoman
04-11-2002, 11:23 PM
Hi Colleen!
Wouldn't it be Mu-kyu?
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

Andy
04-12-2002, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I don't mean to be rude; I've kept my peace till this. But that you would counter the advice of a medical doctor about a potentially serious medical condition is very uncool and I have to say something.
Don't just limit it to medical information. Bruce is really, really good at ignoring people who present much better researched information on aikido and martial arts in general.

I wonder if Bruce just ignores it when people throw atemi during his aikido practice (how many years now in aikido now, Bruce?) to point out his openings?

Oh yes, I forget. He has super pressure point powers.

thomson
04-12-2002, 11:40 AM
Bruce is really, really good at ignoring people who present much better researched information on aikido and martial arts in general.

Amen to that brother!!:D

Mike

Bruce Baker
04-12-2002, 12:11 PM
I can't stop laughing at the posts!

My Karate Teacher, his daughter, and my little brother who is no longer with us all had curved spines with varying degrees of pain and suffering. I can only quote what they have said to me.

I get the same argument from my kids who are nineteen and twenty one, but then they know I will use minor pain submissions if they get out of line, so they know to talk politely and honestly ... without leaving their arms or fingers out.

Last time I had to talk to someone like Andy Russo, I think he almost broke his arm from Ikkyo ... but after that he was polite and stopped the snippy teenage stuff.

Hey, check out the Kyusho thread, I just got a new anatomy and healing book, under $20, and not Dillman. That should make you happy .. if not throw yourself repeatedly until you find some harmony, we could all use another laugh.

Greg Jennings
04-12-2002, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by ca
Hi Greg:D

So why were the dan levels changed, do you know? And how do the ranks go then, just the current higher ranks eventually disappear through attrition and the ones already at 8 just stay there? Do folks readjust their standards for what then constitutes say a sandan, or is the top level just lopped off?:confused:


Hi Colleen,

I don't have any definitive answers. You could ask Peter Goldsbury about that. You might also do an archives search on The Big Three forums (AikiWeb, AikidoJournal and E-Budo) for threads that Mr. Goldsbury has contributed to.

He's a very nice fellow, a professor at Hiroshima University, IIRC.

What follows are my personal guesses, nothing more:

I think that the elimination of the top dan ranks are a response to the connotations (and various brouhaha) associated with the 10th dan.

I think perhaps 9th dan will be awarded posthumously my Doshu to people who've made really phenomenal contributions to aikido.

I assume that people that are currently 9th dan (e.g., Saito Shihan) or 10th dan (Michio Hikitsuchi Shihan...verbally awarded and maybe one of the brouhaha) will just stay there till their passing.

I don't believe that there really are objective "standards" for the extreme upper ranks. So, I don't believe that anyone will "scale" or "pro-rate" their current criteria for the lower dan grades.


ps, I personally like the sound of No-Kyu level, but is there a standard way to refer to the pre-first test category (you'd think, since I've hit this level so many times with my wanderings, I'd know, but I don't)

Like so many other things in aikido, I don't think there is a standard, but my experience has been that it's called "6th kyu". Some people will joke and say "no kyu" or "mu kyu".

Best Regards,

Andy
04-12-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
I can't stop laughing at the posts!
Dismissing the argument due to your lack of ability to respond to it? Sad.
My Karate Teacher, his daughter, and my little brother who is no longer with us all had curved spines with varying degrees of pain and suffering. I can only quote what they have said to me.
Converse accident.
Last time I had to talk to someone like Andy Russo, I think he almost broke his arm from Ikkyo ... but after that he was polite and stopped the snippy teenage stuff.
Argumentum ad baculum.

What's the phrase? "Force is the weapon of the weak"? Can't prove your points without threat of physical violence?
Hey, check out the Kyusho thread, I just got a new anatomy and healing book, under $20, and not Dillman.
Argumentum ad novitatem.

Most importantly, in your case Bruce: Argumentum ad nauseam.

Greg Jennings
04-12-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
My Karate Teacher, his daughter, and my little brother who is no longer with us all had curved spines with varying degrees of pain and suffering. I can only quote what they have said to me.

I get the same argument from my kids who are nineteen and twenty one, but then they know I will use minor pain submissions if they get out of line, so they know to talk politely and honestly ... without leaving their arms or fingers out.

Last time I had to talk to someone like Andy Russo, I think he almost broke his arm from Ikkyo ... but after that he was polite and stopped the snippy teenage stuff.


The point is, Bruce, that a trained physician with experience in aikido offered the fellow good advice. You, with a sample of three and not being a doctor should have not countered her advice.

Before you include me in your ad hominem (although admittedly, the other posters were just slamming you and were not really contributing to the discussion), I'm middle-aged, not a teen or 20-something.

BTW, your ad baculum lacks mojo. How are you going twist my fingers or almost break my arm with ikkyo through that long, long wire....

Sincerely,

Jim ashby
04-12-2002, 04:34 PM
Love the use of latin. My teachers were adamant it wasn't a dead language. Just wish I remembered more.
Have fun,just ignore Bruce.

guest1234
04-12-2002, 05:52 PM
Hi Bruce,

Listen, sorry about the joke I made on the other thread. I really am, but actually I don't tease enemies, so in some ways it's a good sign...

I'd like to expand your background in scoliosis if I can, just for you and any teachers out there wondering about students who show up with it...

WARNING******Boring Medical Stuff to Follow********WARNING

Scoliosis is a description, not a specific disease or even condition---it just means an abnormal curvature or rotation of the spine. More often found in girls than boys, and occasionally runs in families. It has a multitude of causes:
there can be underlying diseases of nerves or muscles (these folks may not be wise to roll due to the muscle/nerve problems. It can be due to certain diseases of bone (these may not be wise to fall). It might just be an abnormal surve without significant underlying disease: these probably can roll and fall, but depends on the degree---curves may exceed 20-40 degrees---picture a normal spine twisted by that much--and here the real danger would probably be in the way we teach falls and rolls. For instance, a regular front roll from migi hanmi travels smoothly from right shoulder diagonally across back to left hip. Now picture a spine twisted, so that when the person bends at the waist at you look at their back from behind, instead of the fairly even curve you see normally, there is a hump at the left shoulder, the spind makes a 's' from right to left to right to left...well now imagine that front roll. a side fall normally protects our spine, but could put maximum impact on a spine with scoliosis.

I think karate does not fall and roll as much as we do.

Oh, and finally, some severe cases of scoliosis require spinal surgery with metals rods placed on each side of the spine to attempt to slow or reverse the curve. Now THAT should give a shudder to at least a few kids' class instructors.