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MM
11-19-2009, 06:58 PM
I uploaded a new video to YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_geiIvVYBE

Here is the description of the video:

An exercise to show why we work on push tests. We typically work on push tests to outstretched arms, to shoulders, and to chest. In this video, I wanted to show a progression from a push test to a technique to show or illustrate the applied internal skill.

In this example, I'm working with a medium level push. My partner isn't trying to bowl me over, but he's giving me a decent amount of energy in the push.

First I move away quickly to show that my partner is pushing and not just standing there. Then I let him disengage quickly to show that I'm not pushing back into him.

Finally, while he is pushing, I turn 90 degrees towards him and then apply a simple nikkyo lock. This shows that I am working on internal structure to receive the energy of the push and not give up my center, structure, or balance. If I can use internal skills to, in essence, be unhindered by whatever energy or attack my partner provides, then I am free to move as I wish.

If I can accomplish that, I'm not forced to "physically move" my body to gain kuzushi or to capture my partner's center or to destabilize his structure.

Again, this is a simple example and isn't meant to show any kind of dynamic engagement. However, at a certain level, one can use internal skills in a dynamic manner under freestyle environments.

Michael Varin
11-20-2009, 01:15 AM
Mark,

What is the objective of this type of exercise?

Why do you believe it to be valuable?

I'm not forced to "physically move" my body to gain kuzushi or to capture my partner's center or to destabilize his structure.
I would argue that you do physically move your body.

How are you using that term?

How do you see it as being different than a "traditional" nikyo?

Thank you for posting videos, by the way. It really helps with the discussion. I don't know why there has been resistance towards doing so.

jss
11-20-2009, 05:17 AM
If I can use internal skills to, in essence, be unhindered by whatever energy or attack my partner provides, then I am free to move as I wish.

If I can accomplish that, I'm not forced to "physically move" my body to gain kuzushi or to capture my partner's center or to destabilize his structure.
Could you expand on this? I don't get how your freedom of movement implies you can affect your partner without 'physically moving' your body. (And what do you mean by 'physically moving' your body? Stepping? Any overt physical movement?)

dps
11-20-2009, 07:35 AM
Finally, while he is pushing, I turn 90 degrees towards him and then apply a simple nikkyo lock.

If he is pushing you would shift your center downward, backward,( at this point uke has lost his balance) turn while going upward and then forward into nikyo. You would not push into him to force a nikyo.

David

dps
11-20-2009, 07:55 AM
Or do an Irimi-nage.

David

MM
11-20-2009, 08:51 AM
Mark,

What is the objective of this type of exercise?

Why do you believe it to be valuable?


Hi Michael,

We don't do this typically. It was just an example I filmed to see if I could start a discussion around internal skills and external jujutsu methods.

I think it's valuable to note the differences in approaches. Most jujutsu requires movement for kuzushi while aiki does not require it.
One downside is that very high level jujutsu can look like aiki to someone watching. But, for uke, he/she will *always* be able to "feel" the differences. Which is where IHTBF comes into play.


I would argue that you do physically move your body.

How are you using that term?


Well, yeah. I am moving. :) But, notice that under uke's pressure, when I turn towards uke, the point of contact between us doesn't really move much. And notice that my shoulder level doesn't change. Even though uke is exerting energy to try to disrupt me, I am free in my movements. It would look silly, but I could "hula hoop" my hips and nothing would change. I'm not resisting uke's attack. As Ueshiba noted, there is no resistance in aikido.


How do you see it as being different than a "traditional" nikyo?


In a lot of "traditional" nikkyo, you find tori/nage moving to "lead" or unbalance uke to start the technique. Just a quick search comes up with these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ma8oHm2qfE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp8LvwfhQkM

Notice how tori moves as uke attacks. Getting off the line, extending uke in some manner, and then apply the lock. Kuzushi, tsukuri, and kake. But, in getting kuzushi, a lot of the times tori must move to try to "lead" uke outside of himself in some manner. Typically that's head out of alignment from shoulders, shoulders out from over hips, etc.

(Okay, before we get too off topic, I am not stating this is bad. I'm trying to compare and contrast aiki, which is internal, to jujutsu, which is external. Both aiki and jujutsu have prominent roles in the martial arts. Both can have high levels of skill.)

So, for me in the vid, I don't *have* to move physically to "lead" uke in order to gain kuzushi. I'm working on internal structure and internal skills to accomplish that.

As a test, if someone is pushing on you, do you *have* to move to gain kuzushi or an off balance? Do you *have* to move because if you don't, you'll get pushed over? If so, then IMO, that's relying on jujutsu methods.

MM
11-20-2009, 08:54 AM
Could you expand on this? I don't get how your freedom of movement implies you can affect your partner without 'physically moving' your body. (And what do you mean by 'physically moving' your body? Stepping? Any overt physical movement?)

Some of this I covered in my previous post. :) But, yeah, there's a jump there between "freedom of movement", affecting my partner, and not having to move physically that I didn't go into. That's covered in many, many threads here by Mike, Rob, Dan, etc. Not really part of this thread's topic.

Erick Mead
11-20-2009, 09:20 AM
We would call this a "centering exercise" or standing kokyu tanden ho.

I use nikkyo ideally to show how the legs may be buckled (aiki-sage) by the flexor reflex before uke is quite conscious of the fact -- the joint lock is wholly secondary and resulting from the action, not the means of accomplishing it. Nikkyo, for me, is a lesson in how one form of that action works -- how it is triggered and how to judge its correct application. Sankyo is the converse -- triggering extensors (aiki-age), FWIW.

What is shown is a rather different manner of nikkyo -- very linear. That is not necessarily problematic, as it can create more instantaneous local buckling behavior at the connection, but that does not appear to be used -- again not necessarily problematic either -- depending on the situationally appopriate use of that connection. Instead, the connection is used to carry uke off his base of support, the "toppling" result in the uke -- rather than buckling the support as in aiki-age, or "springing" it aiki-sage. In fact the more linear nature of the connection shown, and the direction of the longitudinal rotations used is closer, structurally, to a sankyo and which thus sees just a bit of the "springing" reflex behavior in the calves and ankles, mixed in.

Correct rhythm of action is a key aspect of the most effective nikkyo, IMO. The registering of any pain from the applied lock is an afterthought to the triggering of the undercarriage flexor reflex -- which should precede it. As I see it, if uke does not find himself compromised involuntarily before pain is really perceived, it is not ideal. Purest ideal is provoking the reflex with little or no pain sensation at all.

But the order of perception is a good objective gauge of success in developing correct action -- because the spinal reflexes are faster than the cortical pain relays. If you are not getting true reflex action from the connection, then pain is felt ahead of or simultaneous with the body's reaction, and the reflex, if present, is thus mixed with voluntary neuro-muscular stuff, which can override reflex in whole or in part. Lagging pain sensation is a very good test of more "pure" reflex action, from my perspective -- which cannot be easily overridden if triggered in isolation.

Anyway, thems my thoughts and thanks for the video.

Eric Joyce
11-20-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm trying to compare and contrast aiki, which is internal, to jujutsu, which is external.

Mark,

I appreciate you posting the video and explaining what you are trying to accomplish in the exercise with your uke. However, don't you think the comment above that you made is a generalization?

MM
11-24-2009, 08:10 AM
I'm trying to compare and contrast aiki, which is internal, to jujutsu, which is external.


Mark,

I appreciate you posting the video and explaining what you are trying to accomplish in the exercise with your uke. However, don't you think the comment above that you made is a generalization?

Thanks Eric.

IMO:

Looking at Daito ryu, we have jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aiki no jujutsu. The base of all is jujutsu. The higher level skill is aiki. aiki is the internal body skill, jujutsu is the external body skill.

When you are required to move to gain kuzushi, you're using jujutsu. Again, I'm not stating this is a bad skill. Really good jujutsu can be formidable, just as the Gracies proved many times over. But it's really good jujutsu and not aiki.

Aiki is an internal body skill that is made up of quite a bit of various things to enhance the way the body works, so that an external delivery mechanism (for example, jujutsu) is made more powerful.

Or perhaps people think that all of those thousands of martial artists who had backgrounds in all manner of jujutsu who met Takeda found that he was just doing very, very good jujutsu? Or that Tomiki, as he was tossed 60 different ways when meeting Ueshiba, just thought, wow, he's got really good jujutsu? Or that those highly ranked kendoka (who had trained for a long time) came to study with Ueshiba because he had really great "tai sabaki" from his jujutsu skills?

The answer is that all those people already *had* extensive backgrounds in jujutsu and they had the experience with high level jujutsu people. Meeting Takeda, Ueshiba, Kodo, Sagawa, etc, they all came away knowing that these people had something very, very different. That difference was aiki. An internal body skill.

All those jujutsu people knew and practiced the manner in which to take advantage of physical positional or postural weaknesses. Aiki trains a body not to have those weaknesses. It's why Ueshiba could not be pushed over, whether to the chest or while sitting. Aiki training changed Ueshiba's body to handle force differently. He didn't *need* to move to affect a person, but chose to move because he expressed his aiki in an outward physical manner via modified Daito ryu techniques combined with a spiritual belief system.

Is it a generalization? No, I don't believe it to be.

dalen7
11-25-2009, 01:25 PM
Interesting, I find that when ukes arm is locked straight in Nikkyo that the technique can be resisted. - Its when there is a bend in the arm at the elbow that severe pain can be rendered to uke with little effort.

- dAlen

MM
11-26-2009, 08:41 AM
Interesting, I find that when ukes arm is locked straight in Nikkyo that the technique can be resisted. - Its when there is a bend in the arm at the elbow that severe pain can be rendered to uke with little effort.

- dAlen

If you have good aiki as uke, it doesn't matter whether your arm is bent or locked out. Joint locks stop working with good aiki. Aiki as in the body skill. Course, if tori/nage has better aiki ... :)

Demetrio Cereijo
11-26-2009, 09:19 AM
Interesting, I find that when ukes arm is locked straight in Nikkyo that the technique can be resisted.

Go with the flow and switch to waki gatame - rokkyo.

grondahl
11-26-2009, 09:39 AM
I thought that the kosher iwama version was to just drop the hip a little more backwards and still do nikkyo.

But switching to rokkyo is also a favorite.

Go with the flow and switch to waki gatame - rokkyo.

Maarten De Queecker
11-26-2009, 10:35 AM
Just a thought: why would you resist if anyone pushes? I'd rather let all that energy get past me instead of trying to resist it with inner strength (or leg strength as I prefer to call it). Then again I'm a lightweight..

jss
11-26-2009, 11:01 AM
Just a thought: why would you resist if anyone pushes?
Learning to resist it is the first step to learning how to aiki it. ;)

Allen Beebe
11-26-2009, 12:27 PM
IMO:

Looking at Daito ryu, we have jujutsu, aikijujutsu, and aiki no jujutsu. The base of all is jujutsu. The higher level skill is aiki. aiki is the internal body skill, jujutsu is the external body skill.

When you are required to move to gain kuzushi, you're using jujutsu. Again, I'm not stating this is a bad skill. Really good jujutsu can be formidable, just as the Gracies proved many times over. But it's really good jujutsu and not aiki.

Aiki is an internal body skill that is made up of quite a bit of various things to enhance the way the body works, so that an external delivery mechanism (for example, jujutsu) is made more powerful.

Or perhaps people think that all of those thousands of martial artists who had backgrounds in all manner of jujutsu who met Takeda found that he was just doing very, very good jujutsu? Or that Tomiki, as he was tossed 60 different ways when meeting Ueshiba, just thought, wow, he's got really good jujutsu? Or that those highly ranked kendoka (who had trained for a long time) came to study with Ueshiba because he had really great "tai sabaki" from his jujutsu skills?

The answer is that all those people already *had* extensive backgrounds in jujutsu and they had the experience with high level jujutsu people. Meeting Takeda, Ueshiba, Kodo, Sagawa, etc, they all came away knowing that these people had something very, very different. That difference was aiki. An internal body skill.

All those jujutsu people knew and practiced the manner in which to take advantage of physical positional or postural weaknesses. Aiki trains a body not to have those weaknesses. It's why Ueshiba could not be pushed over, whether to the chest or while sitting. Aiki training changed Ueshiba's body to handle force differently. He didn't *need* to move to affect a person, but chose to move because he expressed his aiki in an outward physical manner via modified Daito ryu techniques combined with a spiritual belief system.

Is it a generalization? No, I don't believe it to be.

One day my grandfather (who has since passed) walked into his daughter's house and found her lying dead in a pool of her own blood. She had been beaten, strangled, and stabbed. He walked back to his shop next door where he worked and told a close personal friend and employee that he had better go next door and look for his daughter. That person (another dear friend now passed) went next door saw the same thing my grandfather did and immediately called the police.

Now, my grandfather swore that his daughter WASN'T there when he first went over. It was obvious to everyone that her body HAD been there and had been there for a while . . . his mind/emotions just couldn't SEE it even when his eyes could, prompting him at some level of consciousness, to send someone else to go SEE and take appropriate action.

I think there is a parallel here. I have virtually used the same words that you just have to explain the same thing . . . for years . . . to the same ends . . . crickets chirping. I have what I call the 150% rule. That is, one must be able to do something 150% quantitatively and qualitatively beyond the capacity of one's witness before that witness will begin to consider that what one is doing is operationally different than what the witness already "knows" and can explain. (As you know O-sensei demoed the 150%+ rule quite frequently.) Anything less than 150% and, in all likelihood, the witness will place, and explain, what is happening in the context of what they "know." Trouble is, I'm not developed to the extent that I can readily demonstrate a capacity of 150% beyond most folks.

Even still, as with my grandfather's example, I suspect that if a person isn't mentally/emotionally prepared to accept that something completely and fundamentally different from their normal frame of reference is at play, if they are so (understandably) mentally/emotionally invested in having something be a certain way because they devoted their life to THAT WAY they may not be able to SEE "reality" even when it is lying right before them.

And if they can't, thankfully in the case of a recreational "martial" pursuit, it probably won't matter that much anyway.

*Please take a moment to literally count your blessings. It is incredibly uplifting to feel gratitude for all that one has, especially if one has been missing what one has not.*

All the best,
Allen

Allen Beebe
11-26-2009, 12:43 PM
One more thing about the 150% rule . . . if the demonstrator doesn't effectively explain/train the observer to do the same thing, the observer will be left to try replicating the demo via known avenues thereby possibly replicating a demo but not the actual substance of the demo, or worse still (from the viewpoint of replication/transference), attributing the demonstrator's ability to something "mystical" since what is outside one's realm of knowledge often appears to be accomplished via magical power of one sort or another.

Of course there is the whole fallacious demo thing but that is a subject unto itself.

Jonathan
11-26-2009, 02:51 PM
deleted post

I looked again at the vid clip and thought better of my questions. :)

Basia Halliop
11-26-2009, 03:53 PM
Interesting.

Of course I can't feel what is happening, only what I see, but from the video it looks like instead of aiming for the normal 'blend' and get off the line thing and slightly redirect uke using minimum force (at least to me it's normal, I mean no particular judgment by saying that) and letting uke's own momentum make things happen, this is more of a direct resistance approach, using good posture, etc, to let nage's legs press against the ground, etc, to more easily create an equal force opposing uke's force?

Or perhaps not quite, but that is what I'm seeing.

dalen7
11-26-2009, 05:52 PM
If you have good aiki as uke, it doesn't matter whether your arm is bent or locked out. Joint locks stop working with good aiki. Aiki as in the body skill. Course, if tori/nage has better aiki ... :)

heh, I was at Aikido tonight discussing this clip. [Not that Im that fluid in Hungarian, more like babbling with pantomime] :D

Anyway I brought up the point I made above, which I thought was valid - till our 1st kyu came over smiling, grabbed my wrist and put me on the ground. lol!

Yeah, that was after I had successfully demonstrated my point - or so I thought. So at the end of the day, arm straight or bent, you can nail the person... I just hadnt been shown how to do so up until now with the arm straight... emphasis has always been on the arm being bent, or I suppose going into another move as mentioned in a previous post.

... much to learn still. :D

Peace

dAlen

[and happy thanksgiving...]

p.s.
As for Aiki - I have tried something like the unbendable arm with Gokkyo [i.e., when your on the ground and Tori goes to pin your arm/wrist up by your head.] When I had my arm relaxed, yet extending it, my arm could not be bent. I did this with a couple of people and it was fun to see the results as it worked with higher lvl kyu as well. [something I tried on my own, they werent even expecting it, that is what was so cool about it. :D

MM
11-27-2009, 08:59 AM
Go with the flow and switch to waki gatame - rokkyo.

I thought that the kosher iwama version was to just drop the hip a little more backwards and still do nikkyo.

But switching to rokkyo is also a favorite.

As an exercise, this was just designed to show how the correlation between a push test and a base technique. With structure, tori isn't forced to "move off the line and blend". As tori, I'm not under any load or force and am free to turn into uke's force. My upper body isn't receiving the push at all. Instead of being forced to step off the line, try to extend uke out over his center, blend, and then apply the technique, I'm using Internal Methodology, the beginnings of aiki.

Just a thought: why would you resist if anyone pushes? I'd rather let all that energy get past me instead of trying to resist it with inner strength (or leg strength as I prefer to call it). Then again I'm a lightweight..

Why did Ueshiba always have people push on him? Wouldn't it have been easier if he had just let that energy go past him rather than trying to "resist" it? Do you think Ueshiba was "resisting" all the people pushing on him? Or perhaps, there was something internal going on that allowed Ueshiba to negate, nullify, or harmonize all that incoming energy from the people pushing on him?


I think there is a parallel here. I have virtually used the same words that you just have to explain the same thing . . . for years . . . to the same ends . . . crickets chirping. I have what I call the 150% rule. That is, one must be able to do something 150% quantitatively and qualitatively beyond the capacity of one's witness before that witness will begin to consider that what one is doing is operationally different than what the witness already "knows" and can explain. (As you know O-sensei demoed the 150%+ rule quite frequently.) Anything less than 150% and, in all likelihood, the witness will place, and explain, what is happening in the context of what they "know." Trouble is, I'm not developed to the extent that I can readily demonstrate a capacity of 150% beyond most folks.

All the best,
Allen

Hi Allen,

Can't disagree with you. I'm certainly not developed enough to do the 150%. But, there is interest out there, so I figured I'd toss some video up.

MM
11-27-2009, 09:09 AM
Interesting.

Of course I can't feel what is happening, only what I see, but from the video it looks like instead of aiming for the normal 'blend' and get off the line thing and slightly redirect uke using minimum force (at least to me it's normal, I mean no particular judgment by saying that) and letting uke's own momentum make things happen, this is more of a direct resistance approach, using good posture, etc, to let nage's legs press against the ground, etc, to more easily create an equal force opposing uke's force?

Or perhaps not quite, but that is what I'm seeing.

Hello,

I consider the normal blend and get off the line as jujutsu. It is a physical attempt (moving your body and purposefully attempting to somehow move uke's body in a specific manner) to somehow get uke off balanced. Jujutsu like that can be very flowing, soft, and use minimal movement, but it's still an outward physical attempt at displacing uke in some manner.

In my vid, I'm actually doing a bit more than just letting uke's force go through my legs into the ground. That's sort of like the ki test of unbendable arm. That's only a one way, single direction aspect. I'm working on having intent go outwards and inwards at the same time. So, yes, while there is intent going from my hand to my opposite leg, which let's uke's force travel to the ground, I also have intent going outwards. Just as my spine is also going in two directions at once.

But, I'm not resisting uke's force. If I'm doing things right, I don't even feel uke's push at all. And I don't push or force any energy back into uke. Everything is done relative to me. Is my intent going out and in, is my spine intent going up and down, is my spine in the center of my body, etc. Even when I apply nikkyo, I'm not thinking of applying a technique against uke, but rather using intent up my spine, out over uke, and then down. Not easy, nor am I very good at it. :)

Basia Halliop
11-27-2009, 09:10 AM
"As an exercise, this was just designed to show how the correlation between a push test and a base technique. With structure, tori isn't forced to "move off the line and blend". As tori, I'm not under any load or force and am free to turn into uke's force. My upper body isn't receiving the push at all."

I think you're using a different definition of 'force' than I'm used to? I have an engineering background so I'm used to a pretty precise, narrow definition. I.e., he is pushing, so his mass is exerting a force F1. The system is not in motion, so there is an equal opposing force F2 where F2 = -F1, so the net force is 0, since F = ma and you have a mass and are clearly not accelerating... I imagine you're trying to express something more subtle than that with your choice of words (something about what the opposing force actually is? I get that you're saying the muscles are relaxed), but the language you're using isn't matching with my knowledge of the words.

MM
11-27-2009, 09:14 AM
Yeah, that was after I had successfully demonstrated my point - or so I thought. So at the end of the day, arm straight or bent, you can nail the person... I just hadnt been shown how to do so up until now with the arm straight... emphasis has always been on the arm being bent, or I suppose going into another move as mentioned in a previous post.

... much to learn still. :D



If you look at it strictly from a jujutsu aspect, if the arm is straight, then it can be used as a lever to affect someone's hips. Get the hips to be out of alignment with the rest of the body and nikkyo is easy to apply.

Looking at it from an aiki perspective, the lever isn't going to work. The hips won't be affected because of how the internal body structure is built.


p.s.
As for Aiki - I have tried something like the unbendable arm with Gokkyo [i.e., when your on the ground and Tori goes to pin your arm/wrist up by your head.] When I had my arm relaxed, yet extending it, my arm could not be bent. I did this with a couple of people and it was fun to see the results as it worked with higher lvl kyu as well. [something I tried on my own, they werent even expecting it, that is what was so cool about it. :D

The unbendable arm trick is only one half of what really should be going on. While it gives some strength when you mentally extend through your arm, it isn't the complete exercise. Intent going outwards should be combined with intent coming inwards at the same time. Not an easy thing to do or keep going in a dynamic situation.

phitruong
11-27-2009, 09:18 AM
very interesting. mark, you switched position too fast for my eyes to follow (getting old) and have not figured out how to slow down the video yet. maybe doing it more slowly with you being able to pick up one leg at a time and wiggle your hips a bit.

as a side note, the monk Takuan mentioned about the mind has the tendency to get stuck on thing. you mentioned nikkyo and most folks will get stuck on the technique and didn't realize that it wasn't about nikkyo at all, but about aiki. it could be anything you want it to be isn't it, once you have aiki?

MM
11-27-2009, 09:23 AM
I think you're using a different definition of 'force' than I'm used to? I have an engineering background so I'm used to a pretty precise, narrow definition. I.e., he is pushing, so his mass is exerting a force F1. The system is not in motion, so there is an equal opposing force F2 where F2 = -F1, so the net force is 0, since F = ma and you have a mass and are clearly not accelerating... I imagine you're trying to express something more subtle than that with your choice of words (something about what the opposing force actually is? I get that you're saying the muscles are relaxed), but the language you're using isn't matching with my knowledge of the words.

I think so, too. The language not matching between us. This is much easier to talk about in person, but that's not always an option. If you'll note in the vid, when my partner suddenly takes his arm away, I don't move into him. So, I'm not exerting a force back into uke. So, if I'm not equalizing the force that uke is projecting, then something else must be going on, right?

The body is a very complex machine. It's never as easy as basic physics. Think about radar being altered by stealth technology. Rather than sending waves back to be picked up by radar, those waves are trapped and/or redirected and/or lose energy. The body is complex enough that it can be trained to achieve similar results with incoming energy.

MM
11-27-2009, 09:28 AM
very interesting. mark, you switched position too fast for my eyes to follow (getting old) and have not figured out how to slow down the video yet. maybe doing it more slowly with you being able to pick up one leg at a time and wiggle your hips a bit.

as a side note, the monk Takuan mentioned about the mind has the tendency to get stuck on thing. you mentioned nikkyo and most folks will get stuck on the technique and didn't realize that it wasn't about nikkyo at all, but about aiki. it could be anything you want it to be isn't it, once you have aiki?

Hi Phi,

I'll try to redo the vid and slow my movements down. You're right in pointing that out. Speed masks too much. I should have thought of that.

I'll look silly wiggling my hips, but I'll give it a go. :D

Picking up the legs is a very tough thing to do correctly. Instead of using the quad muscles to pick the leg up, I should be using other internal methods. Example, lower back through to legs. I might not be able to capture that because I'm still working on it.

And yes, you're right. It isn't about nikkyo at all. It could be any technique. But, if you show just any technique, you have to have movement of some sort. Aiki is a body skill. You have to have an external vehicle to showcase it. In this case, it would be jujutsu. So, picking any technique showcases jujutsu, too. And I wanted to cut down on the movement so that jujutsu isn't as prominent as aiki principles. Hard to do.

phitruong
11-27-2009, 09:51 AM
I'll look silly wiggling my hips, but I'll give it a go. :D

Picking up the legs is a very tough thing to do correctly. Instead of using the quad muscles to pick the leg up, I should be using other internal methods. Example, lower back through to legs. I might not be able to capture that because I'm still working on it.
.

aikido folks should be very comfortable in looking silly :D

wiggling hips to show that you are not bracing with your legs. also, if you are connected to uke's center, your hips wiggling would also making uke's body to wiggle as well. picking up the leg to show that you are still maintain a ground path as you switching position. just a couple of thoughts. look good though. you are a braver man than i for making the video.

Basia Halliop
11-27-2009, 10:04 AM
"If you'll note in the vid, when my partner suddenly takes his arm away, I don't move into him. So, I'm not exerting a force back into uke. So, if I'm not equalizing the force that uke is projecting, then something else must be going on, right?"

No, not really. If I put a book on a table, gravity exerts a force downwards on the table equal to F = -mg where m is the mass of the book. The table exerts an equal and opposite force called the normal force, this is why the book doesn't go through the table. Likewise, the force the table exerts on the floor is now increased by m, and the normal force exerted by the floor on the table is also increased by m. Yet, the table does not move upwards when the book is removed, since the normal force exists only when something is pressing the table. It doesn't continue afterwards.

Actually, stealth radar works precisely _because of_ basic physics :). Some of it is cancellation of one electric field with another equal and opposite one, much of it is altering the angles of reflection to minimize how much goes back to the sender, some is using materials with different dielectric constants. All very fundamental and measurable (and believe me, they measure it to death) physical stuff... It's the same basic problem as antireflective coatings on eyeglasses, just a more complex system so more factors to the solution.

But that's way besides the point, I suppose. I take your point about vocabulary... it's not really the point of your discussion, I presume. I imagine it's easier to show what you're doing than to explain how it actually works, without shared language.

Michael McCaslin
11-27-2009, 10:55 AM
No, not really. If I put a book on a table, gravity exerts a force downwards on the table equal to F = -mg where m is the mass of the book. The table exerts an equal and opposite force called the normal force, this is why the book doesn't go through the table. Likewise, the force the table exerts on the floor is now increased by m, and the normal force exerted by the floor on the table is also increased by m. Yet, the table does not move upwards when the book is removed, since the normal force exists only when something is pressing the table. It doesn't continue afterwards.


You know, I almost never post here any more. The signal to noise ratio, agenda trolling, and general personality conflicts conspire to derail conversations. Every now and then I pop in just to make sure I'm not missing anything, LOL.

I feel compelled to chime in because your quote above exactly encapsulates the fundamental idea to me. Make your body transparent to the incoming force, such that the pusher feels like he is pushing on a table. The trick is to arrange your body such that the force flows to the ground, and not add any resistance of your own. That's not what most people naturally do when you try to move them, though. They instinctively dig in and push back.

It sounds so simple, but it's tough to do and there are gradations. I met with Mike S. recently and was surprised to see how much what I was doing differed from what I *thought* I was doing.

I think people discount how much importance there is to this fundamental idea, and your book/table metaphor encapsulates it well. Now, if the book is moving sideways, how do you arrange your "internal table"?

FWIW,

Michael

George S. Ledyard
11-27-2009, 02:07 PM
If you look at it strictly from a jujutsu aspect, if the arm is straight, then it can be used as a lever to affect someone's hips. Get the hips to be out of alignment with the rest of the body and nikkyo is easy to apply.

Looking at it from an aiki perspective, the lever isn't going to work. The hips won't be affected because of how the internal body structure is built.

The unbendable arm trick is only one half of what really should be going on. While it gives some strength when you mentally extend through your arm, it isn't the complete exercise. Intent going outwards should be combined with intent coming inwards at the same time. Not an easy thing to do or keep going in a dynamic situation.
Mark,
the problem with this stuff is that you really need to feel it. The folks who can look at the video and see what is happening are already working on it and the folks who aren't, largely can't see it. Allen's point is spot on.
- George

Rennis Buchner
11-27-2009, 09:22 PM
Just a thought: why would you resist if anyone pushes? I'd rather let all that energy get past me instead of trying to resist it with inner strength (or leg strength as I prefer to call it). Then again I'm a lightweight..

I think that depending on your point of view, he is letting all that strength get past him, but via a channel through his body rather than just off into nothing in the air. Done properly there shouldn't be any particular "resisting" in the terms we normally think of when using the term, not that I can do it properly mind you, but that is why we keep working on such things.