Should we teach pressure points in Aikido?

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[Bruce Baker]

Should we teach pressure points in Aikido before Ryukyu Kyusho Karate has children knocking out shihans? ( A bit extreme, I guess, but not far fetched with what I have seen progress in the last three years?)

There are too many impossible things happening in my lifetime.

Jetplanes will never take off vertically?
Computers will never be the size of a magazine?
You can't look into peoples bodys with sound and magnetic resonance?
You can't knock people out with touch?

We have many advance people who have been taught technique, and seen proven results from years of practice, but they don't see that Aikido uses proven principles of meridians (a concept of medicine relating to the human bodys organs/ functional systems) and having the capabitity to use angle and direction to activate these meridians through nerve endings/pressure points. I have seen more than a couple of ten, eleven, twelve year olds who are getting the hang of knockouts?

Maybe because Americans want to share what they learn these secrets have become more readily available to study and learn in the last ten years? Dim Mak and pressure points is not a magic but a science to be taught, learned, and respected much like the proven sciences of our age?

So if you Pooh-poohed looking into pressure points like the old saying, " If god wanted man to fly he would have wings!" well ... some teachers are giving people wings, and we had better get few for Aikido.

Or would you rather go back to horses and oil lamps ....
FYI: Aikido is still well respected by even these knockout artists, because in its true form it doesn't allow for openings ... but even that, I fear, is just a matter of time.

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Should we teach pressure points in Aikido

Too late. It is already done.

before Ryukyu Kyusho Karate has children knocking out shihans? ( A bit extreme,

And quite fantastic.

You can't knock people out with touch?

Generally speaking, no. With a well-placed, solid thump? Yes. With hypnosis (self-inflicted or otherwise)? Yes. With a fair understanding of the power of suggestion and a willing subject? Yes.

they don't see that Aikido uses proven principles of meridians (a concept of

This sort of thing is taugth in almost all budo at some level and in some form. It's not new, it's not secret, it's not unique.

I have seen more than a couple of ten, eleven, twelve year olds who are getting the hang of knockouts?

As I said, that's pretty fantastic.

Maybe because Americans want to share what they learn these secrets have become more

Or maybe because certain individual want to make money off the relative gullibility of the public at large?

So if you Pooh-poohed looking into pressure points like the old saying, " If god wanted man to fly he would have wings!" well ... some teachers are giving people wings, and we had better get few for Aikido.

Don't need 'em. Aikido has perfectly good wings of its own, as long as you know how to find 'em and use 'em.

Chuck

[erikmenzel]

Should we teach pressure points in Aikido

At our place we train traditional "aikikai" Aikido, enough pressure points in our training.
It just is not the main focus of our training, which does not mean that pressure point use is ommited either!!

Besides there is a big risk that shifting focus (maybe with every little hype that comes along) will lead you astray.


There are too many impossible things happening in my lifetime.

Such as an abundant use of questionmarks ?? :D


well ... some teachers are giving people wings, and we had better get few for Aikido.

But aikido has good wings.
If you cant fly, it may be wiser to learn how to use the wings you already have instead of buying new ones!


Aikido in its true form doesn't allow for openings ... but even that, I fear, is just a matter of time.

No, this is just a symptom of what is commonly refered to as a what if mentality.

[guest1234]

Should we teach pressure points in Aikido? We already do.

Should we teach that 12 year olds can easily knock out anyone with them? Most (not all) who practice Aikido are too smart to fall for that kind of hype.

[Erik]

I was listening recently to a cancer researcher. He was talking about how there are 350 people at his location just working on cancer. Just on cancer and just where he worked. Imagine how many thousands of people are working on this worldwide? Imagine the computing power and other resources which have been thrown at cancer over the last 20 years (since it's become a major research issue in the US).

During the interview he gave a number of responses like:

It seems there may be a causal relation...
I don't work on that aspect so I'm not really sure...
There are many different types of cancer and they are not all the same...

This is a PHD who has dedicated his life to researching cancer giving these answers. They probably have a ton of research and a ton of computing power to work with.

Now, we could go to a ki (insert alternative of choice here) guy and we'd hear, "Meridian B-20 (if there's such a thing) is out of whack and you need to strengthen your spleen." Duh!

So, when scientists can't give quick and easy answers with massive amounts of research how come ki people can? Hell, Dillman supposedly (if I remember the story correctly) found some notes on pressure points and away he went. Notes in a dresser drawer containing stuff that would win some researcher a nobel prize in medicine if they could be proven to work based on the reasons he gives.

It doesn't mean that there may not be validity there in some way, it's just that it probably isn't exactly what we think or say it is. For instance, I find the classic explanation of shooting ki (or the firehose) out of the arm very useful for explaining and teaching the unbendable arm (which I find very useful for rolling). The difference between what I do and what some other's do is that I make sure people understand that it's really a function of how the body works on a mechanical level.

Have you ever seen a hypnotist work a room? He'll knock people out too. It's quite remarkable and it's not terribly disimilar from what Dillman is doing. Is there a tool in there if Dillman is doing the same thing? There probably is, but I think that's about as far as we could take it without a lot of research.

[Jorx]

Should we teach pressure points in Aikido before Ryukyu Kyusho Karate has children knocking out shihans?

I just can't help asking WHY?
And WHEN?

Isn't Aikido already an enough complex system? Maybe yeah when you're already sandan and above... maybe then it's wise to -especially- do some pressure point studies but before that - why?

Don't we already get to know our bodies via moving? (in regular Aikido practice)

Isn't a street warrior today (especially in winter) more armor-clad than one in the samurai ages? You can't knock someone out with a pressure point when he is wearing fullscale winter clothing.

Healing subject? Sure it's useful but maybe that should be individual interest not in the regular Aikido curriculum.

Sure there is different use for knowledge about pressure points. As there is about how to handle a chainsaw:grr:

But why when and how this knowledge should be implemented in the regular Aikido curriculum... I can see no reason:confused:

Convince me otherwise;)

Regards...
Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

[Bruce Baker]

Pressure points are many times pointed to but incorrectly used in many Aikido classes, that is one concern I have for Aikido. We don't specify angle/direction, and whether they are rub, push, or strike points. Just do it this way, why?

We continue to use sounds, physical manipulations, and do some meditation for warmup and bowing out, but as we search for meaning in the lessons we have learned, do we see deeper meaning beyond what our Japanese friends have learned? (Question marks are for questions that explore more possibilities that the statement incurs.)

I think if we have text, manuals, and study groups who are non profit, we would advance the Aikido of O'Sensei's dreams without the malicious state of mind he feared from old style knowledge of secret killing techniques which are not secret at all but out in the open without knowledge to understand them?

Knowing how to prevent someone from activating these silly things is just as important as knowing how to asctivate them? You can find six nerve endings in your forearm and wrist just by poking around with your finger. If you numb one, don't forget to slap it and rub a circle, unless you understand meridian flow ... which is another thing we sometimes do wrong in rubbing our arms and legs in warmup.

For you tough guys, pulling my hair, nor pinching my skin, nor any half hearted technique works on me either, but wouldn't it be great to know where to hit, rub, or push to cause a knockout with three or more attackers? Might actually come in handy? (Hohan Soken Willed his notes to Master George Dillman, they were not in some drawer. Nice try, spin doctors.)

I am not the one making money off of anything? If you measure the amount of Money that we spend for our Martial arts training over a life time, a couple of hundred dollars of books and videos is pretty cheap for someone's williness to help us understand the secrets in MA? If I could, I would put a chart on line, but you would still need a teacher to continue a safe practice/ learning.

Enough of the spitting contest.

Read the books, do the research ... there ain't no Senate sub-committee on this one folks. Once you get comfortable with many of the Aikido pillars, ask what is next ... then maybe you will search futher. It will make your plain old Aikido practice even more enjoyable ... believe it.

It's a good thing I didn't get into Tai Chi's hidden meanings, we wouldn't need all those quiet retired folks beating us up either?

[Andy]

In a nutshell:

"Blah blah blah blah pressure points blah blah blah Master George Dillman blah blah blah blah children blah blah Japanese friends blah blah blah secret killing techniques blah blah go do the research blah blah blah meridians blah blah blah blah?"

Blah.

[guest1234]

My current dojo charges dues only to pay rent, electricity, etc., none of the teachers are salaried. My last one was the same, and since there was an associated college class, the teachers were paid by the university to teach it. They donated that salary to the club. No one is making money on this website. There are plenty of Aikido venues that are non profit. The fact that they do not promote this person who charged you a few hundred dollars for his books and tapes does not mean they are malicious. It means they don't believe.

You do. We get that. I am happy you have something that interests you. You are also enrolled somewhere in an Aikido dojo. Why not take up this line of questioning/seeking with your sensei? You can continue to announce that those who don't agree with you are ignorant, but that is not winning any friends here. Me, I'm a beginner who probably is ignorant about MA (about anatomy and physiology I think I have nothing to fear from you). But a lot of people you've been talking to have a LOT of MA experience, and others who read this know that. So when you call them ignorant, you lose credibility with more than just that one person.

[Bronson]

My sensei is a California board certified acupuncturist (one of the hardest acu. boards to pass in the country), and a doctor of oriental medicine. He has showed us some pretty amazing stuff with pressure points. He has also said they are way too unpredictable to rely on. Do the technique correctly and you won't need 'em. When I've asked him about Dillman he says "He seems to have a good reputation", then he drops it which tells me to drop it.


Bronson

[erikmenzel]

So here is the truth about pressure points,
secret techniques and all the other hypes etc:

http://www.win.tue.nl/~erikjk/images/squirrels.gif

[Bruce Baker]

Thank you all so much for telling me a steel boat can't float and your theorizing from you practical experience .... Blah, blah, blah, too...

For those of you in the east Near NY-NJ, your actual opportunity to go and disprove what you preach by either visiting Mark Kline at State of the Arts in Piscataway outside New Brunswick NJ or Go to Kyusho forum on line. I am tired of being mugged, verbally ...

If you can read emotions into words, then you are better than I, they are just words formed to become meaning to me.

(I try to write what I am thinking while remembering,".. we dislike the things we dislike most in ourselves when we meet others." Reread your comments and see if they are valid with this thought, then consider being more tolerant ... grown up.)

As for Pressure points working or not working, I wouldn't mix prescription medicines either, That knowledge is beyond me... although I still take aspirin and all forms of natural herbal treatments I do understand? It is amazing what a little knowledge will do to make something more understandable.

As for the cute picture, that had to do with a hermit who wants to be alone< "... get out here kid, the world is flat ... here's a coupon for free breakfast at the casino ... HIT THE ROAD!"

Of course, as we all get along in experience, we will either stagnate, or continue to learn, prove, disprove, and finally share or not share what we have learned ... I believe I have laid upon the table a choice for all to enlighten your knowledge and Aikido practice, as it has mine.

Whether you pursue this, clinically, scientifically, or thump your chest like a bible thumper at the "Scopes Monkey Trial" Swearing Darwin's theory of Evolution is blasphemy to the Bible ... that is your own journey? Although, I would hope that the representation of those writing in threads is a bit more open minded.

Consider ... nearly every teacher of Aikido tries or does another MA, why go some where else if everything is in one Art? (It isn't.)

You will never truly appreciate the safe aspect of practicing Aikido until you learn what is out there that can hurt you ... your mommy/daddy, or you sensei ain't always gonna be there to help you. You might actually have to learn on your own. Thanks All, for your input.

[Andy]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Thank you all so much for telling me a steel boat can't float

Steel boats float. Your steel boat doesn't float.

(It's full of holes, if you know what I mean.)

[jimbaker]

You can spend years learning, through painstaking trial and error, all the possible pressure points on the human body and how to effectively attack them.

Or you can buy a hammer. Then every place you touch is a pressure point. A hammer doesn't require a list of spots to hit, isn't dependent on the time of day, and its use tends to be instinctive with most primates. We can have interesting discussions about our style's preferences for ball peen vs. claw or about who has the biggest sledge.

There are an almost infinate variety of ways to hurt people . I say "almost" because most of them have already been used by somebody, somewhere. I don't study Aikido to add to that pile of pain, but to learn how to rise out of it.

Budo isn't about finding the best way to hurt people; thermonuclear war has pretty much covered that. It's about finding ways of living with people.

Jim Baker

[lt-rentaroo]

Hello,

I'm of the scientific mindset. In order for me to fully understand and believe it, it must be demonstrated/proven to me beyond all doubt. I've read and heard stories of pressure point techniques and how devastating they can be. However, I've not seen any solid proof, if you will, that these techniques actually work on everyone, every time.

Aikido's basic foundation lies in body movement and redirection of attack, these principles work on everyone, every time, regardless of physical makeup. I like to stick with what I know works, for me.

Now, for everyone else. Mr. Baker has tried to "educate" us on the idea of pressure point training in Aikido. Many of us are the non-believing kind (like me), but we should try to be more accepting. Some folks (and this is not a sly towards you, Mr. Baker) tend to become fascinated with the "touch of death" techniques they read about and hear stories about. I say let them believe what they want.

[Greg Jennings]

Originally posted by Andy


Steel boats float (snip)

Actually, if you want to be technical about it, it's air that floats (in water). In the normal case, the hull serves to contain the air.

Fill a perfectly airtight hull with a substance greater than or equal to the density of water and see what happens.

A trivial example is to consider what would happen if you filled the hull with lead.

What does that have to do with the current thread? Weeeeelllll, maybe there's a metaphor in there somewhere.

Best,

[Jorx]

Somehow I'm getting the feel that this is going rather Bruce vs. restoftheguys AND what's the funniest seems that it's Bruce's

"Guys! Do what You want!"

vs. the others'

"No! We want to do what we want!"
:D

So it's starting to become pretty POINTless not as was the original Bruce's meaning about adding more POINTS to the whole thing.

Anyone has the freedom to study quite whatever he or she wants. Very :ai: :ki: . Right? End of discussion...? :confused:

There are as many Aikido styles as there are Aikido practioners... if someone wants to implement presssure points more densely into their Aikido and it fits well (it does I think) under the Aikido principles and ideas then fine...

I anyhow and this is only MY personal opinion not any big statement want to get the basics of what my sensei teaches me (pressure points not included specifically) and then one day when I'm definitely over shodan (if that day shall ever come :D ) I will maybe add pressure point studies (and many other things as well).

Regards
Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
I am tired of being mugged, verbally ...

Then quit flogging that dead horse. You keep raising points for which you can provide no real verification or backing. You continue to deride folks for not choosing to opt intto your point of view. You maintain an unfaltering stance of belief in things that are largely matters of faith at best and utter charlatanry at worst.

... are valid with this thought, then consider being more tolerant ... grown up.)

Bruce, folks have been more than tolerant, and apparently you are simply taking advantage of that.

As for Pressure points working or not

Pressure points work. No argument. Pressure points don't work like you want them to.

There is no Dim Mak. Valid, real-world research has shown that pressure points don't affect the human body the way certain groups would have us believe they do.

That dog, as my grandpa used to say, just don't hunt.

I have laid upon the table a choice for all to enlighten your knowledge and Aikido practice, as it has mine.

So, in that vein, tell us how you've applied this once-secret knowledge in your aikido.

And tell us what your teacher thinks of a relative beginner adding things to an art he has barely experienced yet ...

Consider ... nearly every teacher of Aikido tries or does another MA, why go some where else if everything is in one Art? (It isn't.)

Some to enhance what they see as shortcomings, to explore the overlaps, to experience the similarities and the differences, some because they like the variety.

Chuck

[Erik]

Bruce, you were right about the notes. I stand corrected but really, does it matter?

Time for a story. It's an old story and it's been told many times in many different forms.

The story begins in one of two ways with our hero:

1. Discovering the ancient art of Vesuvian Dove Tickling while visiting a Peruvian monestary.

2. Doing cutting-edge scientific research into <insert disease or technology of choice> where he discovers a new method of treating said disease.

Our hero realizes that this knowledge must be taken public and for the good of the world he does so. For only $14.95 ($34.95 in Mr. Dillman's case) at Borders, $99.00 for a Dove Tickling seminar (if it's a product then it's 49.95 in 3 easy payments) you too can share in the goodness.

Naturally, our hero's books and seminars are filled with anecdotal tales and maybe even some studies. Words like controls or double blind are not found anywhere in the research. The scientific community scoffs at the research and the concept but that's because the research is either too cutting edge or it's a conspiracy of your choice. Naturally, no one, other than the scientists, considers just what qualifies as good research.

Our hero continues along earning a relative pittance compared to what he would be earning had he actually been able to cure cancer, the common cold or help your car get an additional 10 mpg. Eventually, our hero fades away, but don't fear, for he'll soon return with a new body, a new voice and a slightly different song.

For what it's worth, I took the above story, more or less, from a very well-known diet author but I could have taken it from a thousand other sources. If I seem skeptical, perhaps this would explain why.

[Bruce Baker]

Chuck Gordon, and Chuck Clark also.


Email me your address, and from my own pocket I will send you a tape, and a book no charge.

My treat.

BrucBaker@aol.com

If that doesn't pique your interest, too bad.. I tried.

1.)By the way, pressure points don't make black and blue marks like a hammer. Hammer guy goes to jail, pressure point guy fills out a report.

2.)It you knew how to activate the third pressure point for Aikido Techniques with multiple attackers coming at you, wouldn't you like the one in your hands to be out?

3.)If I am not mistaken, we are humanely immobilizing people with non life threatening means, and that is within the tenents of Aikido?

Besides, I haven't seen any lessons on this thread that weren't beyond your normal Aikido training.

[Bruce Baker]

Sorry, I meant to say everything I have suggested should be within your normal Aikido training.

I just finished watching Dillman's 'Humane Pressure Points' and caught at least three types of movements we consider to be Aikido, but Master Dillman was adding pressure point nudges to encourage mountains to be handcuffed by policemen. Funny how the arts cross over, more and more?

[George S. Ledyard]

Originally posted by ca
My current dojo charges dues only to pay rent, electricity, etc., none of the teachers are salaried. My last one was the same, and since there was an associated college class, the teachers were paid by the university to teach it. They donated that salary to the club. No one is making money on this website. There are plenty of Aikido venues that are non profit. The fact that they do not promote this person who charged you a few hundred dollars for his books and tapes does not mean they are malicious. It means they don't believe.

You do. We get that. I am happy you have something that interests you. You are also enrolled somewhere in an Aikido dojo. Why not take up this line of questioning/seeking with your sensei? You can continue to announce that those who don't agree with you are ignorant, but that is not winning any friends here. Me, I'm a beginner who probably is ignorant about MA (about anatomy and physiology I think I have nothing to fear from you). But a lot of people you've been talking to have a LOT of MA experience, and others who read this know that. So when you call them ignorant, you lose credibility with more than just that one person.

Just an aside. I get a bit defensive when folks start talking as if by showing how they don't make any money, that they in fact are giving their money away they are somehow more credible. I say this because I am a professional instructor. I work my buns off trying to be the best instructor I can be but I definitely need to survive. Even with the money I make through teaching at my own dojo and the small number of seminars I get invited to do I still need to work at several other part time occupations (mostly doing police DT training and even working part time as a private investigator) just to get by.

My hats off to those folks who have figured out how to make a real living doing something they love like this. People whine about Billy Blanks but I think it's just sour grapes. He was the first guy to realize that there were thousands of people out there who would like to do the martial arts without the martial. Wonderful! George Dillman found a handle that appealed to many martial artists. He put it into package form and sold it. Now he's doing fine! Does that inherently detract from the value of what he has done. No. His stuff is fine. I have been meaning to work on the pressure point stuff myself for some time. I have several of his books but haven't had time to work through them in detail.

At some point I intend to put some of the stuff I have been teaching into video form. I will do this for two reasons. First, I want there to be some record out there in Aikido land of the things we have worked out in our dojo that I think would be of use to Aikido folks in the world at large. I won't be around forever and it would be nice if folks could take up where I have left off rather than having to reinvent the wheel next time around. (Guess I am getting self conscious about turning fifty) Second, I need to find a way to get my website to be a profit cenetr so that I am under less financial pressure. Are these incompatible? I don't think so. If my stuff is good people will buy my videos. I support myself and they benefit from the teaching. Everybody is happy. Dillman is the same. His stuff is fine, very useful to know, very valuable for any Aikidoka who wants to take the time to master the principles. He has done tons of work perfecting his "package" and he deserves to benefit from that. I don't think that detracts from the value it has for us as Aikido students. On the other hand most of us know better than to be the "True Believers" that our original poster seems to be. You almost always get burned in the end.

[guest1234]

Hi Ledyard Sensei,

I appologise if it seemed like I was saying those who don't teach for a salary were better than those that do, because that certainly was not my intent :eek:. I was replying to Bruce's statement that Aikido instructors were just in it for the money and that was why they didn't want to believe as he did.

Obviously (since you know my instructors past and present) it is easier to not take a salary from teaching when there are enough teachers around to share the teaching so each can retain a 'day job'. I have never had a sensei who didn't work at something else besides, and am impressed with those who can make a living by teaching alone. That certainly says a lot for their Aikido. Similarly, the fact that a sensei has a day job doesn't mean he isn't as good as the one who exclusively teaches for a living. To me they are both ways of someone sharing their Aikido with me, and I win either way.

Again, sir, my appologies.

[Erik]

Originally posted by George S. Ledyard
Snipped stuff on making money.

From my own perspective, I'm fine with instructors making money. I wish more could do this stuff full-time and all the more power to Billy Blanks. I hope my posts did not contradict that point of view.

The reason I added money into the equation with Mr. Dillman is that someone who can genuinely do what he claims to be doing, and more importantly for the reasons being claimed here, ought to be making a hell of a lot more money than he is. He needs a better marketing plan.

You don't run around doing seminars, you run around collecting Nobel prizes when you can do this kind of thing. Actually using Chi, as it's taught and explained is REVOLUTIONARY and that word needs to be several sizes larger to drive home how REVOLUTIONARY it is. You provide documented proof of repeatable pressure point KO's due to pressure point interaction, and no other means, on the scale he does, and you will have scientist's beating your door down. We won't need Bruce to extoll the virtues of it, it will be front page news.

[Largo]

you run around collecting Nobel prizes when you can do this kind of thing.

They have nobel prizes for this? Really? I'm guessing it isn't the peace prize :D .

[Erik]

Originally posted by Largo
They have nobel prizes for this? Really? I'm guessing it isn't the peace prize :D

Peace prizes ain't worth much anyway. Check out who won it in 1994:

Yasser Arafat
Shimon Peres
Yitzhak Rabin

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Chuck Gordon, and Chuck Clark also.
Email me your address, and from my own pocket I will send you a tape, and a book no charge.
My treat.

Bruce,

Please accept my thanks for your kind offer. And I do mean that most sincerely.

I must, however, decline the gift. As I've stated before, I've explored this avenue (kyusho-jutsu, etc) and have found it lacking.

We're obviously not going to change each other's opinion.

Chuck

[Bruce Baker]

Thanks for putting into words what I could not.

I merely wish others to find the deeper depth of Aikido that what we think it is.

Aikido will whither and die if not practiced and shared, so why not accept the sharing of others to help us understand Aikido?

[Largo]

I'm actually kinda curious about all this now. I'd look into this if there was an english bookstore anywhere around...
Tell you what, if you're still interested in mailing stuff out, send it my way. I'd like to get my sensei and sempais' opinions on this.

Largo

[Reuben]

I don't know what it is, but I just think I detected lots of 'I know it all' attitude.

I don't think it is wrong to try and improve Aikido and to be static is to be defeated. Bruce does have a good point if only it offended people who think Aikido is perfect as it is. Even if I don't completely agree with his point of view, and although his phrasing may be a bit bad(karate ppl beating up aikidoka) ouch sensitive...his point is relevant and should be considered seriously.

Okie ppl, you say Aikido has pressure points and yes I agree we do but who can name me a few?

Right first one that comes to mind is definitely yonkyo.
And then there's a pressure point on the leg(my sensei pressed that when he caught my kick and i just fell but i don't know any conventional techniques like it)

So is atemi to the face considered striking a pressure point?

Enlighten me and don't tell me something like oh i'm so sorry that your sensei does not include that...my sensei does blah blah blah.

Has Aikiweb degenerated into a my sensei is better than urs and my technique is better than urs debate?

Or has it been always like this. I have seen enough to know that it is like this...a lot of the time. I think some of you are missing the entire point of this forums. There's no need to be patronising and overly sarcastic.

[Brian Crowley]

I found this thread informative:

http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10004

Regards,
Brian

[guest1234]

Reuben,

You missed all the many, extended earlier threads, where people went into more detail in this discussion other than the short versions of why we don't believe in this one. But to summarize for me:

1. If folks want to pay good money for this stuff, that is their decision. But don't say this magical thinking has a 'proven' scientific basis, or that 'it always works' because neither statement is true.
--pressure points work because of the pain they cause, or from stimulation of nerves resulting in a slowing of the heart rate or lowering of blood pressure or both.
--pain compliance only works if you can always get the nerve (you cannot, anatomy is too variable, I know first hand), the person's pain threshold is exceeded (easily overcome by drug use or a willingness to tolerate pain to achieve a goal, or by a natural or trained higher pain threshold)
--some knockouts occur when a person's reaction to pain or the threat of it causes a vasovagal reaction (think fainting at the dentist's office)
--some occur with stimulation of the vagal nerve (the HARD solar plexus strike) affect heart rate/BP, or it could be the reaction to the pain that causes (see above)
--some occur from prolonged (PROLONGED) massage of the receptors in the carotid sinus
--those that require this type of stimulation again vary in success due to anatomy, and the uke needs to stand still for some time while you do it

Lets see, where have I seen pressure points tried on me? For this I am not counting the kyu students, just the sandans through rokyudans who get interested once they realize I don't feel pain with yonkyo... one in front of the ear, my guess is they were trying for the trigeminal, on on top of the head and off the midline (probably trying for a feedback loop into a vagal response), side of my neck (see my longer post elsewhere on carotid massage), of course the radial (yonkyo), ulnar (ikkyo pin), side of the leg (peroneal), top of the foot (no clue)...

I believe a hard blow to the brachial plexus (armpit) as is taught but not done would be effective for at least temporarily interfering with the arm if not fairly incapacitating pain-- I'm not interested in finding this out as it might cause permanent damage to the brachial plexus through the streching of the nerve. But it needs to be an effective hard punch, the effect is from stretching/tearing the nerve bundle, or at least causing swelling around it.

I've also not tried getting punch full force in the solar plexus, for similar could-cause damage reasons, not so much to the nerves (the worse thing would be stimulation of my vagal nerve resulting in a temporary pulse/BP change, and I think it would be unlikely to happen) but because of fear of rupture of stomach, intestines, diaphragm, or with misplaced blow, lacerated liver, spleen, lung... curiosity is not worth the risk.

[guest1234]

OK, and now for my beliefs on how this relates to Aikido:

Pressure points are interesting to learn, but I don't see how they relate to taking center, or blending...perhaps a role in balance taking, but I'd say a poor one: uke might not feel pain, and even if he does, he may move in a way you don't mean him to in order to get away from it.

In my very limited experience, causing pain will make uke fight more (to try to get away from the pain source); I'm aiming myself for more of a gently cradled/enveloped feel,,,I want them calmed, not aggitated.

Not saying they aren't interesting to try, but that they aren't, in my opinion, very related to the central aspects of Aikido.

Further, to me saying Aikido is lacking without incorporating Dillman's methods is incorrect, just like saying Aikido is lacking without teaching how to break boards or do flying kicks or archery is incorrect. Those are just something else other than Aikido, gaining skill in them may or may not help you if you are interested in Aikido as a fighting method.

I do think Aikido needs to continuously grow, but I'd say in areas that are core to Aikido, not just by tacking on something else that is unrelated.

[Erik]

Colleen, thank you for bring some science into the discussion. I lack the specific background although I have a pretty good BS detector (learned the hard way).

Rueben, I agree that I was a bit sarcastic (particularly the Dove Tickling Bit) but you have no idea how many times I've seen what is effectively the same story. Go hang out in the self-help, diet (even in the exercise) or new age sections of a book store to see what I mean. It's rampant and I've certainly bought into my share of it too.

Fortunately, because I freely admit that "I don't know it all" and welcome challenges to my ideas (you'll get a vigorous response though) I've rethought most of that nonsense.

Lastly, the best thing about these forums is that ideas get presented and rebutted. It's a lot like my ukemi. Attack (in the physical sense, although Bruce got me pretty worked up) someone vigorously and see what happens. Sometimes I get up really slowly and sometimes nothing happens at all. Either way I've learned something and it's a more honest approach than a lot of people use. I've had more than a few opinions changed out here. It's why I like this place so much.

[PeterR]

Hi Colleen;

Nice summery. A small comment if I may is that Aikido is not just about taking center, blending or balance breaking. They play a role surely but Aikido as Budo is not limited to these concepts.

Directed atemi and the use of other pressure points do exist in Aikido - I guess like much of the Aikido we do it is learned as we go. Last Saturday as preparation for my next promotion I was practicing a tanto dori which finishes with a brutal judo chop to the base of uke's skull (all in tachi). Kime to the forearm (yonkyo) and ankle, pretty common, that wonderful little nerve bundle behind the ear, not to mention the point at the base of the thumb. I could refer to many more and of course nikkyo and sankyo can deliver serious pain and therefore could be said to work on pressure points.

However, because of the limitations which you so aptly summerized Aikido, and I suspect most martial arts that have progressed beyond the gee-whizz stage, do not rely on these points to get the job done. They may help, they don't hinder but no way are they worth relying on.





Originally posted by ca
Pressure points are interesting to learn, but I don't see how they relate to taking center, or blending...perhaps a role in balance taking, but I'd say a poor one: uke might not feel pain, and even if he does, he may move in a way you don't mean him to in order to get away from it.

[MaylandL]

Pressure points have been taught in aikido but it has never been the focus of aikido at the dojo that I train at. The main theme in the training at the dojos where i frequent has been balance/posture, movement/blending and technique. Both my senseis (and I would agree with them) have said that these need to work effortlessly together for aikido to work powerfully. Aikido does not have to be painful for it to work. I've been at the receiving end of a very powerful yonkyo without so much as a painful wrist. At the same token, I've been on the receiving end of a yonkyo that felt that my wrist was about to snap.

By all means teach pressure points as part of technique but with all technique be aware of its advantages and limitations. There are other aspects of aikido that are as important.

Master Dillman seems to have thoroughly researched and applied his knowledge of pressure points and by all accounts seems to be effective for him. My personal preference and past experience is not to rely on them as I've had varying and inconsistent success with them. Others may have had better results with them and my congratulations to them.

My study of aikido has been to reduce the reliance on pain as a primary or major determinant of aikido techniques. My limited experience with pressure points has been that they can generate considerable pain or result in unexpected reactions from experienced and unexperienced ukes

I guess there's much that can be learned from using pressure points and researching that further and applying it. My training may not be complete without having explored pressure points, but right now, its going to take me a lifetime just to make sense out of understanding and practicing harmonising balance/posture, movement/blending and technique and putting it all together with ki.

Bruce, please dont misunderstand. I do not have anything against pressure points. I have had limited experience and success with them. IMHO, aikido techniques can be done with or without pressure points. Keep training in aikido and I sincerely hope you can find some success in the use of pressure points. All the best.

[Erik]

Decided to do some Google research. The site is kind of a mixed bag of stuff to my mind but I thought the article offered an interesting perspective and explanation. Warning, it's disjointed and you'll have to scroll past blank spaces.

http://www.taichiworld.net/Articles/george.htm

[Jorx]

Hello...

That article sure was interesting. I advise anyone to read it and I would like Mr. Baker's comment on that article. It gave a whole new perspective to the thread.

Anyway... according to my information there are no pressure point masters in my country. So rather far from me this thread is;)

However... the most pressure point thing I've learned during my couple of years (if you don't count nukite striking to the ribs and some other parts of the body) is yonkyo. And I've really seen some practioners on who the standard point (middle backside of forearm) doesn't work (and my sensei says that as well).And these ppl have been muscular. On the other hand muscular ppl tend to be less flexible in general so easier to do joint manipulations... Taking the balance however works on everyone...

And regarding Dillmann's methods... HOW on earth do you knock someones pressure point when he is wearing winter clothing??? You can't hit someone on the carotine sinus when he is wearing a thick scarf. You can't poke someone in the ribs when he is wearing a featherstuffed jacket. And that already IMHO makes those techniques unreliable enough to not to put emphasis on them.

Yonkyo however works even if it doesn't hurt when done properly. (for example on someone wearing thick gloves...)

Jorgen
Riveta Sportsclub

[Abasan]

How the heck do we practice pressure points anyway? Hit them? Really?

- Peter... did you actually hit those nerves while practising for your upcoming promotion? -

I wouldn't want my nerves to be hit, in practice or not... it might damage my body beyond repair. But as I understand it, the accuracy, pressure and angles involved in applying pressure point techniques require constant practice. Its like learning the deathtouch. Who would want to volunteer as uke for that? "opps, there goes another one to the morque... next uke pls"

Next question.
I've been at the receiving end of a very powerful yonkyo without so much as a painful wrist. At the same token, I've been on the receiving end of a yonkyo that felt that my wrist was about to snap.
What does yonkyo have to do with the wrist? I thought we're manipulating the whole forearm and elbow thingey via the pressure point on the erm... radial thingey.

The Clueless one.

[Bruce Baker]

Points we already use for Ikkyo Thru Yonkyo

Heart #6/ Pinky side of hand/ One half inch from crease of wrist inner arm

How it works/ pressed into bone ocross oblique angle(looking at palm of hand) Press inward/down to bone. It bends the wrist

Lung #8/ Thumb side of hand/ palm/inner side/one half inch below wrist.

How it works/ Squeeze or rub towards hand.
It will make a fist open up.

My favorite to disable weapons

Large Intestine #10/ Between the muscles forearm/slightly below crease in elbow

How it works/ hit downward towards the bone to cramp the arm.

My favorite for arms like trees/first arm straightener I learned in Wally Jay jujitsu.

Triple Warmer #11/ on the back of the arm just below the elbow measuring from palm or above the elbow if you do it to yourself.

How it works/ Rub up and down to straighten arm.

There are some extremly common openings for stiff, muscular, or stubborn ukes who resist common techniques. All you need to do is feel these upon your own body, find the appropriate pain angle, and Voila' ... now you can do what your teacher does when them stubborn people say Aikido doesn't work.

Yeah, there are pressure points in Aikido. We should teach them, getting more complex as we progress.

Should we get into healing next?

[Bruce Baker]

Healing / should you numb your arm?

Smack it! Yeah Smack it and RUB-Rub-rub in a circular motion.

It is not recommended to use pressure points for more than one class, give them time to recover for a couple of days to two weeks depending upon the amount of irritation you may feel sick within the meridian you are activating.

At this point in time, that is the only warning I have been given, but if you have illnesses, DO NOT let people do pressure points on you.

Like most new things, we are still trying to understand what longterm damage may occur, but that might only be possible with a longterm clinical study of people doing Martial Arts compared to people who do not?

I have health concerns that keep me aware of certain techniques that make me sick because of these illnesses, so I sit out certain portions of the class because of this ... I wish I had known about this years ago, I would have been able to avoid some of the damage I have today simply by knowing what meridian was creating pain, and being overused in day after day of practice?

No matter. Smack it, Rub it.

There will be no black and blue, and pain will be temporary unlike muscle/tendon damage.

Of course you will have to practice your Aikido to get there, but getting there is half the fun, isn't it?

[thomson]

Thought this would be interesting to add to this thread, I would love to hear CA's response to this article as it is supposedly based on medical evidence.

http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa033102a.htm

Mike :D

[Erik]

Originally posted by thomson
[B]Thought this would be interesting to add to this thread, I would love to hear CA's response to this article as it is supposedly based on medical evidence.

http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa033102a.htm


Mike, thanks for posting that. I'd been looking for something on it but didn't know the name to research it. I first heard about it on the Dean Edell show.

[Erik]

Originally posted by Abasan
What does yonkyo have to do with the wrist? I thought we're manipulating the whole forearm and elbow thingey via the pressure point on the erm... radial thingey.


Certain folks (I've seen it specifically in one of the local Iwama dojos) do yonkyo with both the wrist and the forearm. One hand goes to the back of the hand, which bends the wrist, and the other to the forearm. People are very responsive to the leverage applied to the wrist.

[Erik]

Need to say one more thing, then I'll get out of here, off the soap box and feel much mellower (at least for me). One of the things that radically changed my perception of the world was a better understanding of statistics. This will be old hat for some, but I'm amazed at how many people get fooled by this. It took me a long time to get it which is probably why I get so worked up about it. We hate our own failings.

A friend of mine was called by a sports betting service. They told him that he should go with team X and team Y during the coming weekend. Naturally, they won and he was very impressed and didn't buy into my explanation. First, they could have called hundreds of people, told them the other 3 combinations, and only called back the one's they got right. Or, since there's a 25% chance of getting it right, they could have just let random chance play into it. It's even possible that the service believed in their product and just didn't understand what they were really doing. Statistical runs are normal and so higher than normal success is to be expected for some when random chance is involved. This is incredibily common in the financial world where the bad use of statistic's is rampant. For what it's worth, my degree is in Finance.

Now, a very hypothetical situation. Suppose you are bitten by a snake. You run (forgetting that running is a bad idea) down to the local shaman. The shaman tosses monkey's in the air, shouts in Swahili and miraculously you live. Very impressive. You read up on it and discover that shamanism cures 90% of all snake bites but that Western medicine only cures 75% of poisonous snake bites. Of course, if you were to discover that 90% of snake bites are non-poisonous the shaman would look much less impressive. This means that Western medicine cures 97.5% of all bites when measured in shaman terms and is the only chance you have of surviving a poisonous and fatal bite in this example. It is side-effect free though, which makes sense because it doesn't do anything.

I don't think there's any doubt that Mr. Dillman is an accomplished martial artist (his resume shows that), nor that there are certain nerve points, nor that he knocks people out. He also appears to be a decent guy from what I've heard. What is terribly important is why he knocks people out and that can make all the difference not only in the knock out but in all the rest of the package.

[PeterR]

Originally posted by Abasan
How the heck do we practice pressure points anyway? Hit them? Really?

- Peter... did you actually hit those nerves while practising for your upcoming promotion? -

I wouldn't want my nerves to be hit, in practice or not... it might damage my body beyond repair. But as I understand it, the accuracy, pressure and angles involved in applying pressure point techniques require constant practice.Hi;

Well yes and no. You are supposed to come as close as you can with speed and control even to the point of a light touch but not to cause pain or injury. That said on two different occaisions, once doing and once done, uke was dropped. In neither case was it full force and although we both went down like a rock we did not go unconcious. After the required round of appologies we realized what a full force strike has the potential of doing.

I agree with your statement about not wanting to take the hits as part of regular practice although in some cases, not the above, I would not mind trying the effect on a one time basis. I might even take one of Dillmann's seminars but I've seen a lot and I doubt I would walk away with much.


What does yonkyo have to do with the wrist? I thought we're manipulating the whole forearm and elbow thingey via the pressure point on the erm... radial thingey.

Erik answered this already. We don't use Aikikai terminology but what you would call yonkyo would involve control of wrist and elbow while applying kime to the radial nerves. Kime alone in not yonkyo.

By the way welcome to the forums.

[Bruce Baker]

Thank you, some of you for your arm chair opinions, they really make me laugh ... with the pains of illness I have, I need a good laugh in the morning.

It is also why I don't watch them talk shows and I take what is reported in the news with grain of salt ... reports that contradict each other within months because of ratings?

Some of you asked for proof, I give you simple points that we use in Aikido.

Those little points on your body that cause pain are not magic, but scientific transmitters within your body. You need Aikido to get there, but then what? Learn to slam people into the ground and objects so their bones break, or internal injury?

I love the gentleness of Aikido with the option to go farther even with advanced training.

Our lives are focused on consumer societys ... get a job, make more money, say one thing and do another for business sake ... is that our mentality for Martial Arts, or Aikido also? Are we shopping for marketed products with a better label and the best guarantee without looking at the ingredients within the product and understanding the actual function of the product?

I am a year and so many months from cracking the half century mark in life, and I see a lack of common sense, lazy insensitive opinions based on consumerized techo geeks who get their information from other peoples reports instead of questioning, studying, and actually finding the facts for themselves.

Out of ten posts in a thread, one voice of reason responds, hence patience with others and having seven skins thick to continue to have a dialog becomes worthwhile for the one.

Maybe I have been uke too long for sensei, feeling the things I speak of ... which I have been prompted to explore and find answers for.
Eventually, your perception to the movements in Aikido will become slower and you too will ask,"What was that pain that made me move?"

When you find out, then this thread will be worth the words we write today.

[erikmenzel]

My nephew always goes around asking everybody the same question again and again. He just wont stop.

Finally, when everybody has given an answer he does not like he starts to wine and nag and becomes mad, claiming nobody takes him seriously and everybody is ignoring him and he is not getting the attention and recognision he thinks he deserves.

But then again, my nephew is only 4.

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Thank you, some of you for your arm chair opinions, they really make me laugh ... with the pains of illness I have, I need a good laugh in the morning.

Bruce, that sounds awfully condescending. Are you saying that folks here are not to be taken seriously and are only deserving of your laughter?

It is also why I don't watch them talk shows and I take what is reported in the news with grain of salt ... reports that contradict each other within months because of ratings?

But you've bought wholeheartedly into a line of thought that is considered to be, by many well-respected martial artists and medical folks, at best, limited in scope and unreliable, and at worst, willful deception. Hmm.

Those little points on your body that cause pain are not magic, but scientific transmitters within your body.

Sort of. Not like you want them to be, however. And no, it's not magic. There is not magic three-point knockout touch. You can whack the hell out of someone and make them see starts, you can use techniques of suggestibility and make a willing student THINK he's been KO'd, or you can outright fake it. You can create false histories and market them as truth and people will buy it. Worse yet, you can embellish a little truth and make it seem ever so much more romantic and mysterious ...

And that's exactly what has happened in SO much of the popularized martial arts these days.

You need Aikido to get there, but then what? Learn to slam people into the ground and objects so their bones break, or internal injury?

Among other things, yes. I've been pounded into the mat by high-ranking aikido folks, hard enough to see bright flashes and wonder why the birds are singing, and I've been lofted and set down so gently, I had no clue what was happening till I was looking up at George Simcox' grinning face. I've felt nikkyo so soft and effortlessly applied that the only thing I knew wa that I couldn't move, and I've had it set into place so that my arm tingled for an hour afterward.

It's a spectrum, a continuum. And if more aikido folks would get together and work out the transitions and examine the ends of that spectrum, there'd be no need for anyone to advocate adding anything to the art. It's all there, already. It's just fragmented by politics, personality and prejudice.

And, for the record, I don't 'do' aikido myself. I do, however, have several dear friends who study and teach aikido, and I train with them whenever possible. Those folks range from no-kyu to rokudan, from the very hard to the very soft, from their 20s to their 60s ... and I learn from each of them every time I get on the mat with 'em.

I also train with both classical and neo-jujutsu as well as with judo and karate folks and I spend a lot of time studying the Japanese sword and stick arts. Ken is my first love and is the core and root of all my budo studies.

If I were younger, had more time, and had access to someone like Nishio or the late Shirata Rinjiro or a few of their contemporaries, I'd probably spend lots more time doing aikido, because those folks are going to be gone soon.

For now, I'm already chasing too many rabbits, but have always been and will continue to be fond of aikido and love training with good aikido folks.

That being said, back to the matter at hand:

Our lives are focused on consumer societys ...

Odd that you should say that, since you're main focus seems to be a system that is apparently based primarily on marketing.

get a job, make more money, say one thing and do another for business sake ... is that our mentality for Martial Arts, or Aikido also?

Sigh. Now, are you calling us liars? Are you calling me a liar? Speak your mind plainly, Bruce, please.

I am a year and so many months from cracking the half century mark in life, and I see a lack of common sense, lazy insensitive opinions based on consumerized techo geeks who get their information from other peoples reports instead of questioning, studying, and actually finding the facts for themselves.

Again, who are you talking about? If you have something to say, please say it. Don't use innuendo.

If you're poking those comments at me, for one, I've never been anything but up front and straightforward with you or anyone else I deal with on the mat. I conduct myself in the dojo, online and in business the same way.

I don't like innuendo and veiled slights. If you've got a name to call or a gripe to air with an individual, put it out on the table so we can see it plainly.

Out of ten posts in a thread, one voice of reason responds, hence patience with others and having seven skins thick to continue to have a dialog becomes worthwhile for the one.

So, we're to define (by your standards) the voice of reason as someone who agrees with you point of view? All the rest of us are just blowing smoke? If you think so, say so.

Eventually, your perception to the movements in Aikido will become slower and you too will ask,"What was that pain that made me move?"

So ... you have how many years training in aikido?

Chuck

[Andy]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Thank you, some of you for your arm chair opinions, they really make me laugh ...
So how many hours a week are you on the mat training as opposed to how many hours you're watching videos, reading books, and surfing the Internet?

What was it I wrote before? Oh yes: Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Bruce Baker]

Thanks again Andy and Chuck, I really like your comedy act....

I just picked my daughter from Philadelphia to take her for Wisdom teeth removal, and we stopped at Barnes and Noble Books in Cherry Hill, NJ ... I found a very cheap and affordable book on

ESSENTIAL ANATOMY FOR HEALING AND MARTIAL ARTS by Marc Tedeschi

Let's see, on the back it says Artist, Designer, Educator, hold fifth degree in Hapkido (Korean Aikido descened from Sokatu Takada /excuse me if my spelling is off) a martial art that integrates both healing and combative techniques .... a student of Eastern concepts of human physiology, he has practiced martial arts since 1974, training extensively in Hapkido, Taekwondo, Judo, Jujitsu, and Karate. first edition 2001/second printing 2001.

I will tell you what, for under twenty dollars it has as much information as the $100-$200 books in charts, anatomy charts, meridians and translations of a couple of Chinese charts.

Why is it important to go beyond the physical manipulations and the martial arts we learn today?

Because to reach the understanding of a master, you must consider all factors to find the harmony. And even if you train eight hours a day, if your mind is not open to learn, clear to think, you will have learned nothing.

What I would like to know is why Andy and Chuck feel they have to dominate this Aikiweb forum? Oh, well.

I consider those who must complain, my friends. Only your friends bitch at you, whether you need it or not. Read this book and then you will know where you are pressing, rubbing or striking ... but knowing which type on which meridian, another story?

Check out this book, it is really good!

(and it ain't Dillman, that should put a smile on your faces.)

[Chuck.Gordon]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Thanks again Andy and Chuck, I really like your comedy act....

Talking to you is kind of like pissing up a rope, isn't it? You continually prattle about US not paying attention, about US posting laughable comments, yet you continue to flog the same old dead horse, contine your arrogant, condescending ways.

Hapkido (Korean Aikido descened from Sokatu Takada /excuse me if my spelling is

I know nothing about Marc Tedeschi so I cannot comment, but Hapkido is not Korean aikido (it is a synthesis of Korean kick-punch arts and jujutsu-like techniques) and whether or not the originator of that art actually di more than attend a few Takeda seminars is in question.

off) a martial art that integrates both healing and combative techniques ....

Many do. Over the past year, I've been studying the Danzan Ryu restorative massage of the Kodenkan. Fascinating stuff. Judo also has some failry interesting restorative practices as do many serious budo systems. Off the top of my head, I can add Hakko Ryu Jujutsu and Shinshintoitsu (Ki Society) Aikido.

It's been said that the killer is also a healer; you need a knife in the kitchen as well as one in war.

What I would like to know is why Andy and Chuck feel they have to dominate this Aikiweb forum? Oh, well.

Because you continue to spread misinformation, be rude, cast aspersions, be condescending and trite, and, apparently try to 'dominate this Aikiweb forum' yourself. We're just making sure the field of play is level and that all opinions are heard and considered not just your limited one.

Chuck

[Erik]

I am a year and so many months from cracking the half century mark in life, and I see a lack of common sense, lazy insensitive opinions based on consumerized techo geeks who get their information from other peoples reports instead of questioning, studying, and actually finding the facts for themselves.

I'm not in my 50's or even 40's but I'm well out of the 20's and frankly I've learned that I'm not terribly reliable. I question, challenge and change my beliefs all the time. I think you have to when you are honest with yourself. I fear the day I stop questioning. I submit to you that you should question more.

The field we are talking about though is not something you just pick up a book on and become an expert in. If I were to undertake the education required I'm guessing it would require a commitment of a decade (I'd have to work along the way to pay the many 1,000's of dollars). Then it would probably require more decades to run the studies to prove, assuming it's valid, even 5% of what you seem to take for granted. There is no way I can do research that is valid on that level, nor can any one person as part of science is being able to repeat a study. So, I rely on others who like that sort of thing to do the work and they see things differently than you do. In fact, differently than a lot of what's found in a book store.

As to dominating these boards, I'm probably, by far, the worst offender, certainly compared to Chuck and Andy. Too much free time on my hands. Yes, I'm a web developer in California.

[Bruce Baker]

Well, I have seen the gamut of opinions as to minor comments becoming issues. Which just goes to prove, the most offended are those subconcious of believing, or .... you wouldn't yell so loud if you were comfortable with being you.

That aside. My end thoughts are in wonderment how we forget the teachings of O'Sensei and jump upon our own personal band wagon?

I have spoken off line to a few sensei's I have met who have some experience with pressure points while practicing Aikido and the best comment was to the effect, "... aikido is an everchanging movement that adapts and harmonizes with movement. Adopting to learn another form within this movement is acceptable to the tenents of Aikido."

I won't go into who said that because the words were good enough to stand on their own for me, and this sensei has helped me with some exercises that have extended my practice by activating ... pressure points for health.

Here is the other quote I wanted to get in, not to step on Jun's ability to use quotes, which I think is great.

From: The Secrets of Aikido by John Stevens
Text under picture of O'Sensei doing (what looks like) modified Yonkyo

"Morihei maintained that "Aiki is Love," and that it is possible to handle aggression with a smile. The supreme challenge of a warrior is to turn an enemy's fearful wrath into harmless laughter."

If we can do that while reading these threads, we just might have a chance at spreading peace and Aikido throughout the world ... just an end thought.

[guest1234]

Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Points we already use for Ikkyo Thru Yonkyo

Heart #6/ Pinky side of hand/ One half inch from crease of wrist inner arm

How it works/ pressed into bone ocross oblique angle(looking at palm of hand) Press inward/down to bone. It bends the wrist


This works by appling stretch to the tendons of the wrist flexors, with a reflexive contraction flexing the wrist... you covercome it by RELAXING rather than tensing the arm muscles, which is often the natural reaction of uke. Funny, it seems we are always being told to relax.

Originally posted by Bruce Baker

Lung #8/ Thumb side of hand/ palm/inner side/one half inch below wrist. How it works/ Squeeze or rub towards hand.
It will make a fist open up.


The LU-8 I know is above the wrist one unit, not on the palm, so I'll try to explain that first: pressure on nerve stimulates contraction in finger extensors (and maybe the interosseous muscles...this detail of hand anatomy is out of the day to day for me, perhaps a hand ortho guy would like to help?)...overcome by relaxing the grip but keeping hand closed (I guess you'd say loosen grip) maybe think of extending hand (that seems to move the muscles the way I want as I sit here)

How you describe it, on the palm (the thenar eminence actually) it seems to be overcoming with overstretching the contraction of the thumb flexor but that would just loosen the thumb (an important thing, I admit, in those of us with opposable thumbs)


Large Intestine #10/ Between the muscles forearm/slightly below crease in elbow How it works/ hit downward towards the bone to cramp the arm.
My favorite for arms like trees/first arm straightener I learned in Wally Jay jujitsu.

Triple Warmer #11/ on the back of the arm just below the elbow measuring from palm or above the elbow if you do it to yourself.
[/B]

LI-10 probably either/or/combo of rapid stretch of the biceps tendon with refelx contraction--relax to overcome-- or stimulation of the radial nerve--relax.

TW-11 --definately aiming for stimulation of the radial nerve---relax.

Bruce, these points all relay on unvarying anatomy--difficult, especially with the nerves, but sometimes even muscles and tendons refuse to follow the book. They rely on access to them (not the many references to clothing and jewelry that can interfere in just normal day to day dress). They are more useful to the accupuncturist, who has a calm, unmoving, appropriately undraped patient, or a demo uke in a similar condition.

An Iwama sandan I know -- with large hands that would literally wrap over one and a half times around my wrist, would take great joy in grabbing my wrist so tightly the hand would turn color and the fingers curl into a tight fist (he comes from a particularly gorrilla like dojo). Again, reflexive contraction due to tendon stretch. My first week in my first dojo, a large firefighter did the same thing to me during tai no henko, as my sensei watched. Sensei really stressed doing techniques with you hand in a certain position, and I hesitated since a curled fist was not it. Sensei barked out the command "Colleen, open your fingers" and I did...the only thing preventing it all the time was my belief that that kind of a grip MADE my hand stay in a fist. Instead of focusing on my stimulated finger flexors, I thought about using my finger extensors-- and my hand opened. I think this may be part of what the Ki Society is getting at in some of their things, but I come by that only via an offshoot, so I could be way off base.

Pressure points are interesting, but don't take everything you read or are told about them as gospel, and I don't rely on them at all. You are in essence not relying on some secret Oriental wisdom, but on the liklihood that uke's anatomy is uniform, and often that he is willing to be controlled either by belief or pain.

[guest1234]

Originally posted by thomson
Thought this would be interesting to add to this thread, I would love to hear CA's response to this article as it is supposedly based on medical evidence.

http://martialarts.about.com/library/weekly/aa033102a.htm

Mike :D

I would really appreciate the chance to read ANYTHING written by a medical or scientific source on this, haven't found anything that I could access. Have tried this several times, for some reason it always is down.

Does anyone in any Eastern country know if they have the death penalty? If they did, I would think a sudden death technique would be employed rather than the barbaric methods of electricity/firing range/gas... even injection involves needles... touch would be much better. I guess since it is not used in any country, that must mean all Oriental countries forbid the death penalty.

As has been mentioned, it is impossible to test ones theory of death via touch without actually doing it.

[guest1234]

Interestingly, there has been a controlled scientific study just released that showed no difference between accupuncture results and placebo (I think it was just random sticking with needles, but I don't recall the control for sure), even in the areas traditional medicine feels accupunture may play a useful role, headache and chronic nerve/muscle/bone pain.

I don't completely buy this, however, because many times a study comes out, and results are later not reproducible, so I remain open (on the pain control issue) until further studies are done. Of course, western medicine feels one possible explanation of accupunture in pain control is belief of the patient that it will work, and that may account for placebo accupunture being as successful as actual accupuncture.

[deepsoup]

Originally posted by ca

Does anyone in any Eastern country know if they have the death penalty? If they did, I would think a sudden death technique would be employed rather than the barbaric methods of electricity/firing range/gas... even injection involves needles... touch would be much better. I guess since it is not used in any country, that must mean all Oriental countries forbid the death penalty.


Hi Colleen,

I agree with your conclusion, but on this one I have to say I dont buy into your reasoning.

Whatever their (sick and twisted imho, but thats besides the point) rationale, a quick, clean, sudden death is not what the proponents of execution are looking for at all. Many people seem to like their executions to take an unecessarily cruel, humiliating and macabre form. They dont just want death for the condemned, they also want suffering, horror and humiliation. And an edifyingly macabre spectacle for the witnesses/audience seems to be a desirable by-product.

Dont take my word for it though, look at Texas. :eek:

Regards
Sean
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[guest1234]

Hi Sean,

I agree that (unfortunately) some (many) who support capital punishment LIKE to see suffering in an execution. But there is usually enough opposition pressure to make a more humane version adopted (hence lethal injection). Also, folks like the cheap alternative, and what is more cheap than Dim Mak?

Mike,

I finally got that to open...sounds like the 'precordial thump' some may recall, in and out of favor in CPR over the years... relies on resetting or restarting the electrical impulses in the heart by a VERY precisely timed and placed blow. Only problem, as was mentioned a lot in the article, it requires timing that really only happens by chance. Think about all the times you have been thumped in the chest, or seen someone else. How many times did you or the other guy die? there were only a relative handful of cases to review, as in the big scheme of the world it happens very rarely. Massage of certain barorecptors might (MIGHT, recall my previous words on the use of this in ERs) slow the heart rate, but still won't guarantee the CORRECT timing of the blow. IF some folks died as a result of ventricular fib following a blow to the heart, I guess it would help build up a belief in this 'power' in the guillible. Like those who thought astronomers 'made' the sun disappear in an ecclipse. So if a person tried to deal a death blow millions upon millions of times, by pure chance they might get a result. They'd do better entering a lottery.

The article also stated that western medicine now has scientific support of acupuncture. Go to medpulse.com, search for 'acupuncture' and open any of the articles or abstracts that list a Cochrane analysis. This is a well respected group that uses pure statistics to evaluate large groups of studies. You will find that when cold, hard math is applied to the claims of acupuncture, it does not hold up. It did worse than conventional treatment, and the same or worse than 'sham' acupuncture for addiction treatment, some pain management, asthma, etc. It may very well be the belief of the patient in acupunture that makes it work.

[deepsoup]

Originally posted by ca

Also, folks like the cheap alternative, and what is more cheap than Dim Mak?


Its usually cheaper to get semi-skilled or unskilled labour to do a job with a machine than it is to get a master craftsman to do it by hand, wouldn't you say? :confused: Why pay someone a lot of money to do something elegantly when you could pay someone else much less money to do it crudely.

Even if Dim Mak were real (which, like you I seriously doubt), I dont think it would be routinely used as a mode of execution.

But I do agree that there should be some documented case of its use though, in the course of a crime, an assasination perhaps, or even a training accident or two at a Dim Mak dojo! (And there doesn't seem to be any such documentation.)

Sean
x

[Bruce Baker]

I warned you you would need a teacher, already I see confusion?

That is why I asked you all to find your own text, and seek a proper instruction ...

I open the box, now take the time to find the answers.

The two wrist points ... WRIST

Hold your hand up in front of you widdle face, and one half inch below the wrist. Does that clarify or are you creatively just picking whatever point that you find and become contrary like the fairy tale? Oh, well?

My purpose is not to explore the death touch, stop it, smack your head ... tell it to go away.

We are looking for humane ways to stop people from hurting us or others. To make the world and ourselves better?

Anyway, I am glad to see some interesting dialog for a change. Maybe we can raise the bar for Aikido as an intellectual as well as physical art?

[guest1234]

Bruce,

Again, please stop taking everything so personally. It is not good for you, and I certainly hope you don't act that way on the mat or 'in the street'. If I were interested in picking on you, it would be happening in a different manner, and there would be no doubt in your mind.

Now, an interesting educational point. Usually in western medicine, we avoid the confusion in location on the body by refering to things as proximal (closer to the center of the body) or distal (further away), so the location of LU-8 as proximal to the wrist by 2 cm (on the ventral-lateral or ventral-radial side to be more specific).

I have only read six books on acupressure or acupuncture, and maybe a half dozen articles. I am more interested in and have a more extensive library in herbal medicine. The acupuncture/pressure books I've read however refer to 'above' and 'below' in reference to a standing man. This may not be how it is done in Japanese or Chinese, but a translation issue. But it was uniform throughout everything I've read. However, to be sure we weren't talking from two different reference points, I bothered to climb three flights of stairs to my library and pull down Tedeschi's book, since that is one I know we have in common (and is also luckily one that is at home rather than my office). It uses the 'above' and 'below' convention the others did. Which books do you have that do otherwise?

I asked if you were using a different location as --- not surprisingly --- location of acupuncture points is not uniform from practitioner to practitioner. One study of acupuncture in the treatment of asthma had problems when it showed that 'sham' acupuncture worked better than ture acupuncture, the acupuncturists complained that the 'sham' acupuncturists, just chosing random places to put needles, were hitting 'alternate' true sites that just weren't listed beofre in the study. :rolleyes:

As for smacking our heads over the death touch (perhaps not exactly what most of us are thinking about smacking, but whatever), then are you saying you don't think that part of it is real?

[guest1234]

Oh, and Sean, I certainly agree with the big picture on capital punishment, but I think while it is unskilled to throw a switch (to electricity, to drop a pellet into acid, or to release high-dose potassium into the blood), there is one skilled act involved in only one of them-- starting that IV for the potassium in the first place (here Colleen smiles gratefully for all the nurses who've started IVs at midnight so she didn't have to roll out of bed to do so). Yet I think most states have gone to lethal injection (at I'd bet more $$) over the PR problems associated with gas and electricity.

You may not have the death penalty over there (or do you?) so you probably don't hear so much about it as we do in the states (I know it was an issue while I was in the NL, local authorities would refuse to turn jurisdiction over to the military for fear of capital punishment-- ah, that social conscience thing).

[deepsoup]

Originally posted by ca
Oh, and Sean, I certainly agree with the big picture on capital punishment..<snippage> Yet I think most states have gone to lethal injection (at I'd bet more $$) over the PR problems associated with gas and electricity.

Really I wasn't talking about capital punishment per-se so much as bickering about whether or not Dim-Mak (if indeed it really exists) would surface as a form of capital punishment. Its a moot point, I was only arguing it for fun! :confused:

I think I let my personal feelings about capital punishment colour my post somewhat, I really intended it to be more light-hearted than it probably came across.

As far as the costs of execution in the US goes, from what I've read about it the whole process of keeping someone on death-row for decades while countless legal proceedings grind on is so mind-bogglingly expensive that the cost of the execution itself is pretty much negligible anyway. (Its like trying to save money by serving cheaper nuts on the space-shuttle, if you see what I mean! :))

You may not have the death penalty over there (or do you?) so you probably don't hear so much about it as we do in the states

In practice we don't have the death penalty in the UK. (Theoretically, I think we do, for the crimes of high-treason and arson in a military shipyard. There's zero chance of it being applied though, British law is full of obscure old stuff thats still on the books just because noone has ever repealed it. :))

The British media probably carry more stories about capital punishment in the US than you might expect though, most recently over the case of Tracy Housel, who had dual UK-USA nationality and was executed in Georgia just a few weeks ago.

Sean
x

[guest1234]

And then there was that nanny...

not to mention all the countries we've heard from (not that we shouldn't) over the detainees we're holding at Gitmo...

I wonder (besides countries undler Islamic rule) how many countries have capital punishment besides the US... any of the lawyers out there know?

[Erik]

Originally posted by ca
The article also stated that western medicine now has scientific support of acupuncture. Go to medpulse.com, search for 'acupuncture' and open any of the articles or abstracts that list a Cochrane analysis. This is a well respected group that uses pure statistics to evaluate large groups of studies. You will find that when cold, hard math is applied to the claims of acupuncture, it does not hold up. It did worse than conventional treatment, and the same or worse than 'sham' acupuncture for addiction treatment, some pain management, asthma, etc. It may very well be the belief of the patient in acupunture that makes it work.

Colleen, a couple of thoughts here. One thing I've heard is that acupuncture can actually be more dangerous because the needles are not always carefully sterilized. That cleanliness thing again.

I'm also not sure I would have used the word belief but rather to be more explicit, it's not understanding what working actually means. That little step of understanding statistics, even in my minor way, went a long, long way for me.

Finally, don't some acupuncture manuals have the internal organs all mucked up? So, they can figure out invisible chi energy but couldn't get the tangible parts of the body right?

[guest1234]

:o Opps...

the web site was actually a medline search on medscape:
http://www.medscape.com/px/mscpsearch?QueryText=acupuncture&searchfor=Clinical

sorry if anyone spent time looking in the wrong place...

[deepsoup]

Originally posted by ca

I wonder (besides countries undler Islamic rule) how many countries have capital punishment besides the US... any of the lawyers out there know?

Theres some information about that on Amnesty International's website (http://web.amnesty.org/rmp/dplibrary.nsf/ff6dd728f6268d0480256aab003d14a8/daa2b602299dded0802568810050f6b1!OpenDocument).

74 countries have no death penalty at all.

15 countries have it for exceptional circumstances only. (Crimes under military law etc.)

22 countries have the death penalty in theory, but have not executed anyone in the last ten years.

That leaves 84 countries that retain the death penalty and use it: "AFGHANISTAN, ALGERIA, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, ARMENIA, BAHAMAS, BAHRAIN, BANGLADESH, BARBADOS, BELARUS, BELIZE, BENIN, BOTSWANA, BURUNDI, CAMEROON, CHAD, CHINA, COMOROS, CONGO (Democratic Republic), CUBA, DOMINICA, EGYPT, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, ERITREA, ETHIOPIA, GABON, GHANA, GUATEMALA, GUINEA, GUYANA, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, IRAQ, JAMAICA, JAPAN, JORDAN, KAZAKSTAN, KENYA, KOREA (North), KOREA (South), KUWAIT, KYRGYZSTAN, LAOS, LEBANON, LESOTHO, LIBERIA, LIBYA, MALAWI, MALAYSIA, MAURITANIA, MONGOLIA, MOROCCO, MYANMAR, NIGERIA, OMAN, PAKISTAN, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, PHILIPPINES, QATAR, RWANDA, SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS, SAINT LUCIA, SAINT VINCENT & GRENADINES, SAUDI ARABIA, SIERRA LEONE, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SUDAN, SWAZILAND, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, TANZANIA, THAILAND, TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO, TUNISIA, UGANDA, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN, ZAMBIA, ZIMBABWE

I've well and truly wandered off-topic now, haven't I? :rolleyes:

Sean
x

[guest1234]

Thanks! :)

You didn't wander off topic, I dragged youevileyes ... guess I was getting bored with the current one... bad, Colleen, bad bad:disgust:

thanks again :D

[Bruce Baker]

I will no longer answer any questions or personal responses.

The point of this was to make you aware that when you create pain with a joint lock, wrist twist, remove someones hand by grabbing under a wrist ... you are near two pressure points.

It take three to take away someones physical power, or in some cases, knock them out.

If you study what pressure points are causing pain ... on what meridian they are on ... you then have a choice of learning the third point that will cause a knockout.

Physical anatomy of different people may or may not have access to all pressure points, or some physiology of certain people, asian/black/european/ women/men, do not have certain points in their body or they respond slightly different. Within general proven points we use in Aikido, there is over a 90% proven effectiveness in the pain submissions used.

Use them. They work.

Look for the third point on a meridian.

Does this mean there is more to Aikido than some teachers teach today?

I hope so. O'Sensei took all he could from where ever he could learn, and this is the legacy of ten thousand years of fighting arts in our Aikido.

For those that get it, I will see you down the road.

For those that do not, goodbye.

[Chuck.Gordon]

Anything posted by Bruce Baker
bla, bla, bla, aikido and aikidoka suck, pressure points rule, bla, bla, turtles, bla, bla

Hello. Bruce Baker is a troll. He is the worst sort of troll, in that he is not coherent/intelligent/aware enough to know he is trolling.

Any reply, even and ESPECIALLY negative is reinforcement. I repeat what I said on the list so many times, IF YOU DON'T WANT THE DOG TO BEG AT THE TABLE, DON'T FEED IT THERE.

I'm sorry I had to spell it out for everyone.
Now, please talk about something interesting.

thank you,

mle

[Bruce Baker]

There are no pressure points.

Nah.... Yes there are.

Fighters know the knockout points of the jaw and chin, and the regularly knock each other out.

Magic?

Not really.

You can find the angle direction, meridian on most pressure point charts.

Arterys in the leg or neck being hit causing numbness, blackout or ... was it the pressure points on the meridian next to the artery?

Doesn't matter, does it? You got a result.

Do Nikkyo, then touch a pressure point on the same meridian ... oops? ... knocked out my partner! What do I do now?

DON'T ASK ME!

There ain't no such thing as pressure points in Aikido.

But then, we already have them in Aikido don't we, but then we don't have Bruce's pressure points?

Now that Bruce has pressure points, when is Bruce gonna get the nickels, dimes, and quarters for them? Send them to Jun, I think he deserves them more for the nonsense in these threads.

Never mind, you can get your library to order books within the preassure point system to study them on your own, then you can be the butt of ignorance too.

Thanks guys and girls. It's so nice to be loved.

Please come visit LBI. I am sure you will NOT be taught pressure points, as it is my own study outside of class, but then again, when Sensei cranks you into moving this way or that ... you can say you already knew about them pain points, can't you?

That's enough comedy ... then again ...

I feel like I am watching the Transcendental meditation people who think they are floating in the air when they merely bouncing up and down, it makes me laugh so hard my ribs hurt.

Same thing with the negative posts about pressure points.

They don't work until they knock you out.

Be my guest. Contact some of the guys who do it and tell them to try to knock you out with touch?

Then bring back what you find to Aikido.

I might have stopped laughing by then.

New thread, this ones dead.

[Jim ashby]

How the hell can a boxer hit a pressure pont on the jaw with a boxing glove with a frontal area of (in my case with 16oz gloves)over 18 square inches? The way a boxer knocks someone out is generally by accellerating their skull very quickly. The brain,which is much softer and is only attached at the lower rear end (Colleen would know the medical term) hits the skull and, hey presto, goodnight vienna. No pressure points involved.

[Kenn]

LMFAO,

Bruce, you truly aren't the sharpest tac in the box, are you. You keep threatening to leave this forum, so please......don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out...........I will for one miss your posts, everyday for the last few weeks I have looked forward to your humorous rantings.

of course, that's my opinion, you are entitled to yours no matter how wrong you may be.

Peace, Kenn

[Bruce Baker]

If you ask any of the good old timers who have done knockouts in the boxing ring, they will show you the angle and direction of a strike and within the size of quarter where to hit. (even though PP's are the size of a clicker on a ball point pen.)

Back around 1982, we had a old timer boxer who retired to LBI. Kids would get in his face and push him around, until he clipped them and down to the floor they went while he drank his beer. At least three times each summer this would happen at the Hudson House, hole in the wall bar for locals.

I asked him how he did it, and he showed me two points on the jaw line with angle and direction to cause a knockout.

The angle/direction are very important, and make the difference. Even with boxing gloves or heavy clothes, it only changes slightly in using a deeper penetration, but the results are the same.

If you have a good trainer who has seen numerous knockouts, and understands angle and direction, you can find what they tell you in most pressure point manuals, accupoint charts, and striking charts for karate.

What you have to figure out is ... angle, and direction to use these striking points on the chart?

I could go on and on about the magic knockouts of different boxing matches and find the points hit with angle/direction on pressure point books, but then some people in this forum wouldn't understand it also relates to correctly using angle/ direction for Aikido techniques also? Let alone learning to intercept strikes correctly aimed at specific points when practicing Aikido.

Ask about.

There are many proven boxing strikes that relate to strikes in MA and Aikido.

[Jim ashby]

Once again.READ THE WORDS mine as well as yours. If a pressure point is a small size how do you hit it with a large glove? Yes I agree angle, yes I agree direction, but pressure points are nothing to do with it.

[IrimiTom]

James, don't bother... I think there's a greater chance of hitting that pressure point in the jaw with a catcher's mitt than of getting Bruce to actually read someone else's words seriously...and yes, I agree with Kenn, I do recall reading a (very) large rant that I understood to be a farewell message from you, Bruce, and yet you continue to enlighten us and entertain us too....

[Bruce Baker]

For you fellows in the UK

Search out Leon Jay of Small Circle jujitsu and he should be able to show you the physical application of what you ask?

If you want more links see who is associated with George Dillman on his link.

Aikido is pretty neat, but it is really fascinating when you see pressure points in the basic techniques too!