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gtango2000
11-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Are there any techniques that causing pain is important to make it work? Does yonkyu work with out pain. Glenn

gtango2000
11-09-2009, 03:59 PM
Is pain needed to make yonkyo effective. Glenn

jss
11-09-2009, 04:04 PM
Are there any techniques that causing pain is important to make it work? Does yonkyu work with out pain. Glenn
No. Yes.
Don't rely on pain compliance, take their balance.

p.s. If you apply nikkyo and uke totally relaxes their arm, it will hurt. If they tense the arm to protect the wrist joint, you get the leverage to further manipulate their balance.

ninjaqutie
11-09-2009, 04:14 PM
It can work minus the pain. Yes there are techniques that require the use of pain to be effective, but I haven't come across one in aikido yet. :)

Janet Rosen
11-09-2009, 05:14 PM
Is pain needed to make yonkyo effective. Glenn

No, not if the lock is connecting to partner's center and balance is taken.

Janet Rosen
11-09-2009, 05:15 PM
You double posted to old yonkyo thread, see my reply there

chillzATL
11-10-2009, 04:15 PM
yonkyo, nikkyo, sankyo are all designed to hurt. You use them to lighten up your attacker and get them moving where you want them to go.

RED
11-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Are there any techniques that causing pain is important to make it work? Does yonkyu work with out pain. Glenn

I was always told no. My Sensei has a killer yonkyo, and it can be applied without compressing the nerve clusters. I was at least told by my instructors to never rely on pain compliance alone, but the goal should always be ballance taking. Pain compliance won't work on everyone, but gravity will.

kokyu
11-11-2009, 09:38 AM
I was always told no. My Sensei has a killer yonkyo, and it can be applied without compressing the nerve clusters. I was at least told by my instructors to never rely on pain compliance alone, but the goal should always be ballance taking. Pain compliance won't work on everyone, but gravity will.

Completely agree... some people have extremely thick forearms and while you are busy pressing away to find the nerve cluster, he will probably escape... more important would be whether you are connected to uke's center via the yonkyo lock to off balance him

RED
11-11-2009, 02:02 PM
Completely agree... some people have extremely thick forearms and while you are busy pressing away to find the nerve cluster, he will probably escape... more important would be whether you are connected to uke's center via the yonkyo lock to off balance him

Worse than escape, attack you!

I was told also some people just don't feel it.
..a crazy extreme would be the fact that some drug users don't feel pain at a certain point. Not saying I'm fighting off meth heads left and right, lol... just saying I think relying on pain compliance isn't doing your aikido justice.

chillzATL
11-11-2009, 02:48 PM
Worse than escape, attack you!

I was told also some people just don't feel it.
..a crazy extreme would be the fact that some drug users don't feel pain at a certain point. Not saying I'm fighting off meth heads left and right, lol... just saying I think relying on pain compliance isn't doing your aikido justice.

I don't understand the notion that yonkyo, nikkyo and sankyo aren't supposed to be painful. That's what they are for! The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.

Carsten Möllering
11-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Hi
The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.
No, if done right, they all work completely without adding pain just by taking ukes center.

Greetings,
Carsten

SeaGrass
11-11-2009, 04:44 PM
There's nothing wrong with both, pain and taking balance.

RED
11-11-2009, 08:21 PM
I don't understand the notion that yonkyo, nikkyo and sankyo aren't supposed to be painful. That's what they are for! The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.

I don't want tendinitis in 5 years. lol
Don't get me wrong, I do do joint manipulations, and I do apply the crunch.

Other than that, sometimes you can't do a technique.
Example, what if you go for sankyo and notice the guy has made a fist. You are already committed to that sankyo, so you must act in that split second.and complete that sankyo. If you were taught to put emphasis on the ballance and center cutting off the bat, it is not a problem, sankyo still works. If you rely on pain alone I believe you are doing your aikido a disservice. In my little opinion, relying on pain compliance can become a crutch.
I've worked with a person before that relies only on pain compliance. When the pain compliance doesn't work, they try to muscle through, which can hurt some one seriously. Because all they ever learned was to apply pain to protect themselves, they have no back up plan. But they do have full blown tendinitis from a decade or more of taking those techniques.

The ideal is that all techniques can be done without doing any harm to the attacker.

Janet Rosen
11-11-2009, 10:14 PM
Well, there is a difference btwn pain that is associated with acute tendon damage and the momentary flash of pain in, say, nikkyo, that is the result of momentary touching of the nerve rich covering of 2 bones; it hurts and is gone. HOWEVER, it the lock is applied correctly, so that uke is actually locked up all the way up the arm, through the shoulder, to his center, then the pain will only flash on if and when uke turns to regain his balance.

A good sankyo lock has my balance from the start; if the person starts whipping me around using pain compliance to make me follow him or dance around, to me that is gratuitous; he could have just dropped me from the start.

Pain compliance all the way down to me indicates the person doesn't actually have me locked; I'll move and I'll tap but I'll also tell him it was purely pain, please try again.

My two cents

Maarten De Queecker
11-12-2009, 01:45 AM
Well, there is a difference btwn pain that is associated with acute tendon damage and the momentary flash of pain in, say, nikkyo, that is the result of momentary touching of the nerve rich covering of 2 bones; it hurts and is gone. HOWEVER, it the lock is applied correctly, so that uke is actually locked up all the way up the arm, through the shoulder, to his center, then the pain will only flash on if and when uke turns to regain his balance.

A good sankyo lock has my balance from the start; if the person starts whipping me around using pain compliance to make me follow him or dance around, to me that is gratuitous; he could have just dropped me from the start.

Pain compliance all the way down to me indicates the person doesn't actually have me locked; I'll move and I'll tap but I'll also tell him it was purely pain, please try again.

My two cents
Since you move and tap, I'd say the person has got you locked pretty well, since you can't do anything.

Of course, in the ideal situation you have a combination of pain compliance and taking uke's balance, but in certain cases, you only need one of the two.

Carsten Möllering
11-12-2009, 02:22 AM
Since you move and tap, I'd say the person has got you locked pretty well, since you can't do anything.Well yes, that's true. But it's not a good technique - in our understanding. Because you can resist it if you want to or if you are trained to ignore pain or don't feel it or ...
Using the pressure points or moving uke by pain instead of simple mechanics in our eyes isn't yet the pure technique like it is meant to be.

Some years ago we used to play a game using yonkyo. Knowing that it just hurts but doesn't injure uke we try to stand the pain as long as we could.
So nage applied yonkyo and uke didn't move, maybe tears in his eye but didn't move maybe gasping but didn't move.
We were young ... ;-)

In the end we experienced that after some time everyone in the dojo could resist every nage. Pain just didn't work if the fear of injury was taken away.

But: If we did yonkyo right using open hands (like we learned it form Endo Sensei years later) nobody could resist.

Yonkyo is - as the other osae waza are - a question of positioning, angles, mechanics of ukes body.
You can do ikkyo, nikyo and yonkyo using open hands, only your palms. You don't have to grip. Sankyo is a little different because you have to use the side of ukes hand.

If you rely on the pressuer point(s - which one do you use?) in yonkyo what about the pressure points in kote gaeshi, irimi nage, shiho nage ...?
Do you also rely on them or do think irimi nage should work without adding pain to pressure points?

Pain compliance all the way down to me indicates the person doesn't actually have me locked; I'll move and I'll tap but I'll also tell him it was purely pain, please try again.Yes that's the way we think about it too.

It is a big difference if someone has just locked your joint(s) or controls your whole body and is able to move you the way he decides.

On the other side I think it is important to get a feeling for that. On both sides: For uke to deal with pain, with the joint lock ...
And for nage to understand what is happening when doing the technique, understandig it's mechanics and so being able to widen the use of it from just causing pain to the joint to moving the whole body of uke.

Greetings,
Carsten

Charles Hill
11-12-2009, 03:00 AM
I read a fascinating article on the psychology of pain compliance on the 'net somewhere a few years ago. The author concluded that individuals react in one of four ways to pain. Only one of them was "Yes, that hurts and I will do what you want me to do to stop the pain." I don't clearly remember the other three, but the conclusion was that pain compliance is often not effective.

I highly recommend Kevin Secours' DVD "Primal Power 2: Simplifying Restraint and Control Tactics". Kevin lays out the whole use of force continum used by most leo agencies and how to train it for self defense. The set also includes a DVD on how to adapt groundfighting in realistic situations.

Eva Antonia
11-12-2009, 03:32 AM
Hi,

I think it depends very much on the teacher and the philosophy he follows if pain is "foreseen" or not.

First, there is the possibility for uke to anticipate pain; whenever you feel "now it WILL start to hurt" you escape into a fall. I generally don't like that very much because as the previous participants say - where is the balance aspect of the technique if uke just dives out of a beginning pain? However, I do that regularly for shiho nage because my wrists turn too easily and too much, and I'm afraid to damage them if tori regularly finishes shiho nage properly.

On the other hand, if you try to RESIST as uke, there are some techniques that hurt like hell AND damage, even if they don't work in the end. Such as sankyo. A determined tori can tear your hand like a screw but maybe still wouldn't unbalance you if he isn't in the good position. So if you resist the technique won't work but your hand will hurt for a long time.

Then there are people who try to perfection their technique concentrating on the balance, and they manage lots of techniques without inducing the slightest pain. That works on kote gaeshi, ikkyo, yonkyo, shiho nage and certainly on all rapid techniques without locks.

And then I remember still my old teacher here in Brussels, who made yonkyo and nikkyo with only the slightest pressure, just between two fingers, and it BOTH unbalanced AND hurt like hell...I've seen something similar only with Endo.

For me personally, it doesn't matter too much if the technique hurts or not, as far as no permanent damage remains.

Best regards,

Eva

Janet Rosen
11-12-2009, 06:48 AM
Since you move and tap, I'd say the person has got you locked pretty well, since you can't do anything..

I respectfully disagree.
I tap because I'm being crunched in a way that hurts like hell and makes me afraid I'm going to lose a tendon.
But that does NOT mean that the technique was necessarily being correctly applied. All pain causing compliance is not necessarily good aikido.

chillzATL
11-12-2009, 08:19 AM
I don't want tendinitis in 5 years. lol
Don't get me wrong, I do do joint manipulations, and I do apply the crunch.

Other than that, sometimes you can't do a technique.
Example, what if you go for sankyo and notice the guy has made a fist. You are already committed to that sankyo, so you must act in that split second.and complete that sankyo. If you were taught to put emphasis on the ballance and center cutting off the bat, it is not a problem, sankyo still works. If you rely on pain alone I believe you are doing your aikido a disservice. In my little opinion, relying on pain compliance can become a crutch.
I've worked with a person before that relies only on pain compliance. When the pain compliance doesn't work, they try to muscle through, which can hurt some one seriously. Because all they ever learned was to apply pain to protect themselves, they have no back up plan. But they do have full blown tendinitis from a decade or more of taking those techniques.

The ideal is that all techniques can be done without doing any harm to the attacker.

Well I wasn't so much talking about in training. You obviously don't want to spend a night cranking the heck out of everyones wrists on nikkyo's and ikkyo's, but to do the technique properly you always apply a little pain, judging of course uke/attackers reaction to that pain. If just a little is enough to lighten them up so you can move them where you want them to go, great. If not, you apply as much as it takes. In training I've found it best, as another person in this thread mentioned, that you lock them up to the point that there is slight discomfort, but you have a strong lock in place. If they resist or try to turn out of it or hit you, the lock is strong enough that it may apply the pain for you, based on what htey're doing. Or you can easily apply more yourself, but the pain is a primary component of the technique.

Also, while it is a topic for another discussion entirely. I respectfully disagree with your last sentence.

jonreading
11-12-2009, 12:18 PM
I think I would like to address some of the comments I've seen here from my perspective.

First, pain is not required for effective technique. However, nage has a burden to illustrate the risk of non-compliance is not attractive. Nage has the burden of convincing uke there is a 100% percent chance uke will not "win" in continued interaction. Discomfort is a consequence of a poor decision, not the cause of the decision.

Second, pain is a subjective term and therefore volitile as an indicator of success. Pain is a symptom of the technique, not the cause. Applying nikyo to weakend wrist is much easier than applying the same technique to healthy strong wrist. Pain thresholds differ between students. All of these variable responses change uke's risk analysis and therefore the ultimate decision to comply (or not). Is nikyo successful if it causes pain? No, nikyo is successfull if it solicits compliance. I have never seen good aikido technique that could not cause discomfort [pain]; I have seen plenty of bad technique that could not cause discomfort.

Third, good technique creates risk for uke, the risk solicits a response. You need good mechanics in addition to a host of other elements for successful technique, and part of the mechanics is creating jeopardy for uke. As Janet said, she complied with nage because she felt her wrist was in jeopardy of being damanged. Do you think it is really important whether the nikyo was perfect? Nope. Nage has some homework to perform a better nikyo, but the technique was successful.

I don't think the decision to cause pain lies with nage. To debate whether nage should cause pain is incorrect. In other words, nage would not debate the following question, "should I hurt uke when I do nikyo?"

The decision to receive pain lies with uke. If uke chooses to stand there while nage cranks on nikyo, god bless 'em. In other words, the question from uke should be, "why should I resist nikyo if it causes pain?"

Pauliina Lievonen
11-12-2009, 12:48 PM
In other words, the question from uke should be, "why should I resist nikyo if it causes pain?"Because if the only thing the nikkyo does is cause pain, I'm still free to move if I ignore the pain. So I still have a chance to reverse the technique, or hit tori on the nose for example.

If I can't move freely anymore, the nikkyo has done more than just cause pain, it has affected my ability to move. In which case it doesn't depend on pain to be effective anymore, the pain is just a side effect. Which IMO is preferable.

So even in training, I might choose to not move if the only thing that happens is I feel pain. Note: "not move" doesn't equal "resist".

If I tap out early because I want to spare my wrists, my partner should be aware that that doesn't give any guarantees about what might happen the next time they try to crank a nikkyo on Bubba from the Biker Bar. :p :crazy:

Ultimately I think this discussion is a bit pointless - no one is going to belive a painless nikkyo can be effective, until they experience one...

kvaak
Pauliina

Eric Joyce
11-12-2009, 02:17 PM
I was taught never to control by pain alone, that you must have mechanical control of the opponent. Pain is just icing on the cake. There are a lot of people, no matter how hard you crank down on the nerves, they don't feel jack squat. Breaking their posture by gaining mechanical control should be the first thing, which creates that kuzushi to do other fun stuff :)

Basia Halliop
11-12-2009, 02:58 PM
As Janet said, she complied with nage because she felt her wrist was in jeopardy of being damanged. Do you think it is really important whether the nikyo was perfect? Nope. Nage has some homework to perform a better nikyo, but the technique was successful.

Well, it was successful in the context of a dojo practice, with a health-conscious attacker who was attacking simply for the purpose of learning something and helping her partner learn something. I.e., she was not willing to risk taking a few weeks off from training or work to heal from an injury, knew there would be no negative consequence to herself if she submitted, and was calm and collected enough to realize all these things. To me those are all important assumptions.

chillzATL
11-12-2009, 03:10 PM
Because if the only thing the nikkyo does is cause pain, I'm still free to move if I ignore the pain. So I still have a chance to reverse the technique, or hit tori on the nose for example.

If I can't move freely anymore, the nikkyo has done more than just cause pain, it has affected my ability to move. In which case it doesn't depend on pain to be effective anymore, the pain is just a side effect. Which IMO is preferable.

So even in training, I might choose to not move if the only thing that happens is I feel pain. Note: "not move" doesn't equal "resist".

If I tap out early because I want to spare my wrists, my partner should be aware that that doesn't give any guarantees about what might happen the next time they try to crank a nikkyo on Bubba from the Biker Bar. :p :crazy:

Ultimately I think this discussion is a bit pointless - no one is going to belive a painless nikkyo can be effective, until they experience one...

kvaak
Pauliina

I've never experienced a good nikkyo that didn't hurt or at least make me completely aware that pain is readily available if I resist too much. I've also yet to exerience once that did hurt that I could simply ignore. I have a very high pain tolerance and I could certainly fight through it and resist more, but I also know what the result of that would be(damage). I've also never been taught nikkyo where pain wasn't a primary part of the technique. Even if you have energy from the attacker to work with, you still lock it in to a point that pain is only a small amount of pressure away, so that if you lose control of them otherwise, you still have that at your disposal. Likewise, if pain isn't enough, you still have a solid lock which gives you lots of other alternatives. I don't think you can have one without the other and call it an effective nikkyo.

RED
11-12-2009, 03:17 PM
Well I wasn't so much talking about in training. You obviously don't want to spend a night cranking the heck out of everyones wrists on nikkyo's and ikkyo's, but to do the technique properly you always apply a little pain, judging of course uke/attackers reaction to that pain. If just a little is enough to lighten them up so you can move them where you want them to go, great. If not, you apply as much as it takes. In training I've found it best, as another person in this thread mentioned, that you lock them up to the point that there is slight discomfort, but you have a strong lock in place. If they resist or try to turn out of it or hit you, the lock is strong enough that it may apply the pain for you, based on what htey're doing. Or you can easily apply more yourself, but the pain is a primary component of the technique.

Also, while it is a topic for another discussion entirely. I respectfully disagree with your last sentence.

Yeah, the purpose and ideal of Aikido is for another topic. lol

I do agree though. At this point I rarely feel the "pain". A slight pressure maybe. But it's never the pain that gets me anymore, it is the locking of the joints. If a person has total control of my ballance and joints at once I pretty much can't do anything.
9 out of 10 times I'm controlled without pain. It is all the lock ups cutting my center. The lock ups aren't anything I'd describe as pain however, a slight pressure maybe. 9 out of 10 times however the pressure is welcomed, it's a good feeling stretch for those joints. I'd never call anything I enjoyed pain. lol

Janet Rosen
11-12-2009, 05:03 PM
"...as Janet said, she complied with nage because she felt her wrist was in jeopardy of being damanged. Do you think it is really important whether the nikyo was perfect? Nope. Nage has some homework to perform a better nikyo, but the technique was successful"

Not successful by my standards since if I were not being uke, but were an actual attacker, I would have not gotten to the point of "pain - I'll tap out" and, without my balance taken or being locked up, I would be free to turn and attack hard with every other bit of my body.

Rob Watson
11-12-2009, 07:22 PM
Pain is the precursor to damage. If your aikido is aimed at causing damage then pain is a large component of ,particularly locking, techniques. Same goes for throwing techniques - it is one thing to allow uke to roll away safely or break fall, another thing to slam them down so fast and tight that safe ukemi is impossible and injury results.

Pain is your friend as it warns you that damage is near. Find the edge of your pain tolerance but try to avoid taking damage. Years of training this way builds ones pain tolerance (maybe not raise the threshold) so pain is less distracting. Better to adjust ones self to reduce the pain so as to avoid damage.

tlk52
11-12-2009, 07:46 PM
just a caution:

I had a student (very athletic-lot's of martial arts- wrestling/Bjj/boxing etc...) who went to a seminar from a very high ranking shihan. the shihan was walking around the class teaching and came over and demonstrated nikkyo on him, and he decided (deliberately) that he wanted to "really see what it felt like" so he remained still and didn't move away from the pain.

the result... his wrist snapped.

there's a reason why we take ukemi like we do.

Rob Watson
11-12-2009, 08:03 PM
the result... his wrist snapped.

Note that when applied fast enough the damage happens before there is any pain. Things are never so simple ...

David Yap
11-13-2009, 02:23 AM
I've never experienced a good nikkyo that didn't hurt or at least make me completely aware that pain is readily available if I resist too much. I've also yet to exerience once that did hurt that I could simply ignore. I have a very high pain tolerance and I could certainly fight through it and resist more, but I also know what the result of that would be(damage). I've also never been taught nikkyo where pain wasn't a primary part of the technique. Even if you have energy from the attacker to work with, you still lock it in to a point that pain is only a small amount of pressure away, so that if you lose control of them otherwise, you still have that at your disposal. Likewise, if pain isn't enough, you still have a solid lock which gives you lots of other alternatives. I don't think you can have one without the other and call it an effective nikkyo.

At a seminar that I attended some years ago, the pain factor in aikido was raised by a participant. The shihan commented that if one always need to depend on the pain factor to make a technique work, then, that person has not learned anything. He then demostrated various locks on different participants, some who were of twice his built. He informed them of the locks (including nikkyo) that he was going to use and told them to resist strongly. He pin each and everyone and asked whether they felt any pain. None did. Even the immobilizations were painless. My experience with him was that he had taken and grounded my center that I felt that the ceiling had collapsed on me and I just couldn't move.

You probably have NEVER met these high level teachers.

Happy squeezing, I mean training :)

David Y

justin
11-13-2009, 04:08 AM
I don't understand the notion that yonkyo, nikkyo and sankyo aren't supposed to be painful. That's what they are for! The pain isn't the only component in completing the technique successfully, but it's most certainly a large part of what makes it successful.

I disagree if you take any of the techniques and gauge there effectiveness in how much pain is levelled in the dojo you can see your results,
However in a real life situation the average person who starts a fight are often drunk or high on drugs or even worse both, in this situation there pain threshold is increased making wrist pins relying on pain alone ineffective so you need to look at controlling them through taking there balance as well as applying pressure to any of the targeted joints.

I recall my first encounter with wrist pins I thought it was all about the pain until I came across a senior with wrists like steel bars no matter what I done I couldn’t move him with my mindset on making his wrist hurt.

Dazzler
11-13-2009, 05:15 AM
just a caution:

I had a student (very athletic-lot's of martial arts- wrestling/Bjj/boxing etc...) who went to a seminar from a very high ranking shihan. the shihan was walking around the class teaching and came over and demonstrated nikkyo on him, and he decided (deliberately) that he wanted to "really see what it felt like" so he remained still and didn't move away from the pain.

the result... his wrist snapped.

there's a reason why we take ukemi like we do.

I am reading this correctly?

A student remained still...didn't overly jerk the "shihan" around...and the "shihan" broke his wrist.

That "shihan" has issues.

Maarten De Queecker
11-13-2009, 03:11 PM
just a caution:

I had a student (very athletic-lot's of martial arts- wrestling/Bjj/boxing etc...) who went to a seminar from a very high ranking shihan. the shihan was walking around the class teaching and came over and demonstrated nikkyo on him, and he decided (deliberately) that he wanted to "really see what it felt like" so he remained still and didn't move away from the pain.

the result... his wrist snapped.

there's a reason why we take ukemi like we do.

Please don't generalize.. I am one of the people that doesn't budge if the lock doesn't hurt at least a little (as do most people where I train). Why? Because Nikkyo/Yonkyo is pretty technical: you have to apply it exactly on the right spot, or it does nothing. Yes, this means that I have to be able to react very quickly if a lock is applied suddenly, but so far I have not had any serious injuries.

sorokod
11-14-2009, 03:07 PM
I think that pain is at least as important as atemi.

Kevin Leavitt
11-14-2009, 04:01 PM
After a while you can get pretty good at stoppnig techniques such as nikkyo and kotegaeshi. I do it all the time and can ground out just about anyone. I'll even suffer a fair amount of pain in order to do so and your not going to snap my wrist by putting on more pressure.

However, once your get a fairly experienced partner...like someone at the shihan level, the also get it and if they are quicker then you and changing the angle or moving to another technique, then you have something to be concerned about.

So, that led me to the conclusion that it is not so much about the "pain" as, John Reading so eloquently pointed out, I believe...the pain is a secondary factor in the relationship. It is the taking of center and loss of control that is primary to the situation and what matters more than the pain.

Pain in the dojo typically will cause an action, however, in reality when adrenalin is flowing and there is more on the line than the wrist, then the "uke" will suffer alot in order to gain something of a greater magnitude...so you need to have a little more than control of the pain receptors.

I believe once you recognize this and you get over the whole "I have alot of tolerance for pain" issue..then you will start to see a whole new set of things that should be considered.

If I get to the point in nikkyo where I hit resistance, even if it is causing pain, or my technique is grounded out...causing more pain is not going to work, it is time to look elsewhere for balance or kuzushi. Usually it is in the legs and holding the nikkyo while you sweep the feet/foot or changing your angle will give you the kuzushi/balance you need to continue the technique. ...I don't so much care about any pain that I cause the person since if I am causing pain...it tells me that I have hit resistance again and it means that they really have the ability to "push back" or change the angle since pain = pressure...so it is time to move on to the next "hole" in their balance.

Hope this makes sense.

I am not really concerned primarily with causing pain anymore as it is a fairly low skill thing I think....and I believe at a higher level of training, if you are affecting uke internally through their core, that their really is not need to go there since you are trying to command something much greater than that.

Pain is a tool to have in the box...but a mid range one at best I think.

chillzATL
11-15-2009, 01:28 PM
At a seminar that I attended some years ago, the pain factor in aikido was raised by a participant. The shihan commented that if one always need to depend on the pain factor to make a technique work, then, that person has not learned anything. He then demostrated various locks on different participants, some who were of twice his built. He informed them of the locks (including nikkyo) that he was going to use and told them to resist strongly. He pin each and everyone and asked whether they felt any pain. None did. Even the immobilizations were painless. My experience with him was that he had taken and grounded my center that I felt that the ceiling had collapsed on me and I just couldn't move.

You probably have NEVER met these high level teachers.

Happy squeezing, I mean training :)

David Y

Well, every style of aikido does things differently, but that's not how our style does it. Pain is always a prelimary part of all our locking techinques, but as I have stated numerous times in this thread and it seems to go unnoticed, it is NOT the only part. On those locking techniques (nikkyo, sankyo, etc), pain or the feeling that pain is very close by are always used initially, albeit sometimes for only an instant, to get uke/attacker moving so that you have no doubts of being in full control of their energy.

I'm glad that you've had the pleasure of training with quality teachers and I'm sure that seminar would have been a blast. It's always a pleasure to train! I simply do the Aikido that is taught to me and taught within our organization. It is not considered a hard style, only an effective one and the basis of that is the extensive background of our sensei, who I have have had the pleasure of training with and speaking with quite a few times. We do his Aikido, as taught to him directly by O'sensei and Tohei sensei. I have no doubt in the quality, validity or effectiveness of the Aikido he teaches, from both personal experience and his extensive, varied and tested martial arts background.

David Yap
11-16-2009, 01:38 AM
I'm glad that you've had the pleasure of training with quality teachers and I'm sure that seminar would have been a blast. It's always a pleasure to train! I simply do the Aikido that is taught to me and taught within our organization. It is not considered a hard style, only an effective one and the basis of that is the extensive background of our sensei, who I have have had the pleasure of training with and speaking with quite a few times. We do his Aikido, as taught to him directly by O'sensei and Tohei sensei. I have no doubt in the quality, validity or effectiveness of the Aikido he teaches, from both personal experience and his extensive, varied and tested martial arts background.

Reminds of my first teacher who also has extensive background and experience. For me to surpass him I felt that I would also need to have those extensive background for myself. I am still widening the scope. I train Aikikai and the shihan that I mentioned in my post was from Yoshinkan. Given an opportunity, I would also like to have a feel of Ki-Aikido. Unfortunately, there is none in my country.

Regards

David Y

RED
11-16-2009, 12:25 PM
I think that pain is at least as important as atemi.

I always thought atemi was more important than I've seen a lot of people emphasis actually. Every technique has an implied atemi or two.

chillzATL
11-16-2009, 01:35 PM
I always thought atemi was more important than I've seen a lot of people emphasis actually. Every technique has an implied atemi or two.

Many styles rarely teach or discuss atemi anymore and the importance of it. Some think that since this is Aikido, a peaceful art, why should we hit someone? Much in the same way I feel that pain is a key component to some techniques, atemi is equally important to others.

sorokod
11-16-2009, 02:38 PM
I always thought atemi was more important than I've seen a lot of people emphasis actually. Every technique has an implied atemi or two.

Well, then every technique has implied pain in it, unless you are talking about those implied painless atemis.... mmmmm.... painless atemi....

Kevin Leavitt
11-16-2009, 03:33 PM
See your point David. Well intention in some form or another typically has to be there most of the time.

That doesn't explain judo or sport jiu jitsu though were atemi and pain is negated through rules for the most part.

How do you throw someone or gain dominance? does not require atemi, nor does it require pain.

Okay, so now your going to say...well that is not aikido as it does not assume those things away.

Okay, got it, and intent of atemi, knife etc certainly applies and affects the response, timing etc.

However, say, Nikkyo or Kotegaeshi...I think directly, that pain is not a requirement to make it work if you are doing it correctly. The threat of it being there? hmmm maybe in some cases, but how doe that explain how you could do these things on someone that is high on PCP?

I go back to my Sport JJ/Judo model...it doesn't...at a high level, you should be able to access the spine/core of the person you are doing the technique on and gain kuzushi without pain.

Are the avoiding something while you are doing this? Maybe, or maybe not...maybe they don't recognize it at all.

sorokod
11-16-2009, 04:04 PM
I understand your point about pain not being a requirement to make a technique work. A bit like not needing an atemi to make a technique work. In my mind Aikido which is guaranteed to be painless and atemi-less is ... , not sure what to call that, not budo maybe.

The example of Judo is probably illuminating, I have done some Judo in the past and never feared pain or injury. In this sense this is similar to Aikido practice, practice but not reality. Aikido reality, to my thinking, should be shocking, fearsome and painful in the appropriate measure.

The video I linked to today in a different thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWIG8Mk6BM , I had the pleasure of training with some of these people and I am quite sure no one was hurt or "pained" in non trivial way during the demo. However it is clear that shoild the uke stray from a narrow path which is left to him in the interaction, he is in for a world of pain.

chillzATL
11-16-2009, 04:08 PM
See your point David. Well intention in some form or another typically has to be there most of the time.

That doesn't explain judo or sport jiu jitsu though were atemi and pain is negated through rules for the most part.

How do you throw someone or gain dominance? does not require atemi, nor does it require pain.

Okay, so now your going to say...well that is not aikido as it does not assume those things away.

Okay, got it, and intent of atemi, knife etc certainly applies and affects the response, timing etc.

However, say, Nikkyo or Kotegaeshi...I think directly, that pain is not a requirement to make it work if you are doing it correctly. The threat of it being there? hmmm maybe in some cases, but how doe that explain how you could do these things on someone that is high on PCP?

I go back to my Sport JJ/Judo model...it doesn't...at a high level, you should be able to access the spine/core of the person you are doing the technique on and gain kuzushi without pain.

Are the avoiding something while you are doing this? Maybe, or maybe not...maybe they don't recognize it at all.

In Judo or sport JJ you don't have to worry about someone punching you in the face! That's why they're sport and not outright street practical.

The attacks in aikido are meant, if you consider it a practical form of self defense at all, to simulate real attacks and they are very good at that. On the street someone isn't going to just grab your collar (kata) and stand there. They're going to grab you and punch you in the face. That's why we, at least in my style, train to react to that grab, move offline to avoid any oncoming attacks, apply nikkyo quickly and properly, using as much force as it needed and then gain control of the attacker. If this person is high on PCP or something similar do you really think you're going to lock them up (lets use nikkyo for the sake of conversation) and control them with a locked up nikkyo that doesn't hurt and likely will not no matter how hard you crank it down? If it doesn't hurt there is simply no potential for damage there at all. They're going to fight you every step of the way, likely inflicting damage on themselves if your nikkyo is good and maybe you if it's not. If you do manage to catch them off balance and drag them they're still going to fight you and get back up and keep coming. As unfortunate as it is for them, I would much rather snap their wrist while still maintaining control of them and take my chances from there. At least then if they get away from me and try to come again they'll be doing so with one less potential weapon at their disposal.

RED
11-16-2009, 09:27 PM
Well, then every technique has implied pain in it, unless you are talking about those implied painless atemis.... mmmmm.... painless atemi....

The word atemi implies to throw balance.
An atemi in the form of a punch does not have to make contact with an uke, it just has to throw them off balance; cause a reaction. Contact isn't a requirement necessarily, and neither is pain.

Carsten Möllering
11-17-2009, 02:27 AM
Moin
Many styles rarely teach or discuss atemi anymore and the importance of it. That's new to me: I don't know an aikido without atemi.
Yes, there are different ways to understand and to use atemi. That's true.
But Aikido without atemi? Where do you see that? Which styles of Aikido do you have in mind?
Very interesting.

Some think that since this is Aikido, a peaceful art, why should we hit someone? Much in the same way I feel that pain is a key component to some techniques, atemi is equally important to others.Well no:
Not to use pain is merely a technical concept. It is meant to make technique more effective, to gain better control over the attacker and to have more possibilities to act.

Not to use atemi - the way you describe it - however seems to be a philosophical concept.

That's a big difference: I can try to convince you not to use pain by practicing in the dojo. But not to to use atemi I could only convince you by talking and thinking.

Greetings,
Carsten

sorokod
11-17-2009, 03:03 AM
The word atemi implies to throw balance.
An atemi in the form of a punch does not have to make contact with an uke, it just has to throw them off balance; cause a reaction. Contact isn't a requirement necessarily, and neither is pain.

Atemi means a blow to the body. As to implications, you are free to choose your own.

chillzATL
11-17-2009, 07:44 AM
Moin
That's new to me: I don't know an aikido without atemi.
Yes, there are different ways to understand and to use atemi. That's true.
But Aikido without atemi? Where do you see that? Which styles of Aikido do you have in mind?
Very interesting.



One has to only look through a few back pages of posts here to see the wide ranging opinions on atemi and see that many schools simply don't teach atemi as much more than mild distractions and certainly not hard strikes. I personally don't know Aikido without good atemi either and while it's not always hard strikes, especially in practice, we train with that intent.

Kevin Leavitt
11-17-2009, 08:34 AM
Well the thread had to do not with the use of atemi, but the relative value of pain as a motivator.

It is quite possible to deal with a person without the use of pain. It is quite possible to deal with a person without the use of atemi

I have had plenty encounters with folks that don't care about either of those two things...then what? what do you have left in your bag of tricks?

chillzATL
11-17-2009, 09:14 AM
Well the thread had to do not with the use of atemi, but the relative value of pain as a motivator.

It is quite possible to deal with a person without the use of pain. It is quite possible to deal with a person without the use of atemi

I have had plenty encounters with folks that don't care about either of those two things...then what? what do you have left in your bag of tricks?

Well I think you're pushing it to the maximum extreme in the discussion. For the vast majority of people in the world who may attack you in your life, most are going to be upset by a hard atemi and that upsetedness should give you the advantage that you need to execute proper technique. That is the pupose of atemi after all. On the flip side, many encounters would not even need that much. A feint to the face or body would likely be enough to gain you that advantage, but I would rather train with the intent to strike hard and allow my experience and control to take over to measure what level of that is needed rather than train assuming it simply isn't needed.

The same goes for pain. While there are situations where someone may be under the influence of something enough to the point that pain does not motivate them, you still have good technique to fall back on. Joint locks that also create pain aren't bad or improper. Heck, in my opinion they are the most proper, but that is just my opinion. You're not sacrificing anything by having locks that are locked properly to the point that pain is readily available. They're still locked out and you still have all the advantages of controlling their center and energy only with a little pain at the ready to motivate them if they resist. Again, that is the purpose of the pain. It's not a sign of improper technique, or the only part of the technique. It's simply a motivator. If that motivator doesn't motivate them to your benefit, you still have all the other pieces of the technique in place to assist you.

I'm more than comfortable in saying that if they're not under the influence of something, they will most certainly feel the pain of the locks as we apply them.

Kevin Leavitt
11-17-2009, 10:00 AM
Jason wrote:

For the vast majority of people in the world who may attack you in your life, most are going to be upset by a hard atemi and that upsetedness should give you the advantage that you need to execute proper technique

Ok...but personally, I am not presumptious about what someone will or will not do under extreme anger or duress where they are intent on causing me physical harm.

The same goes for pain. While there are situations where someone may be under the influence of something enough to the point that pain does not motivate them, you still have good technique to fall back on.

My good technique has failed me often enough in trainng, let alone dealing with a non-compliant person outside of the normal dojo environment to figure out that there is alot more to a good solution set the a "micro" focused technique to fall back on.

Joint locks that also create pain aren't bad or improper.

Never said they were...bad or improper. Just saying that there is alot more going on in the dynamic of a "fight" than this that must be controlled in order to even get as far as the joint lock or an immobilization....enough to warrant some fairly serious focus on.

Again, that is the purpose of the pain. It's not a sign of improper technique, or the only part of the technique. It's simply a motivator. If that motivator doesn't motivate them to your benefit, you still have all the other pieces of the technique in place to assist you.


sure it is a motivator....if it motivates.

If not, as you state, what do you have to fall back on? What is it that you see in the situation in which you have control through pain that allows you to "fall back on" in order to retain control?

I'm more than comfortable in saying that if they're not under the influence of something, they will most certainly feel the pain of the locks as we apply them.

That word "IF" is always an interesting proposition. One in the Martial Arts i'd rather not have in my vocabulary, or at least do my best to reduce it to a set of sequel and branches.

FWIW, I think situation, risk, and perspective have alot to do with this IF.

IF you were gonig to kill me and my life was on the line...I am not so worried about tapping out or the fact that you break my wrist. In fact, that pain for me is most likely a motivator button to make me fight harder.

IF I were chest bumping in a bar and the percieved stakes were not that high maybe not...it depends on my mental state. My thoughts are to train to the lowest common denominator which essentially factors this IF out of the equation all together...plus it reduces my liability.

because IF it could be demonstrated that I had enough control to actually do a nikkyo in court, lets say someone has an camera filming it...

Then it would become very apparent that I had the ability to control the situation without going the extra mile. However, IF I don't have that control and IF I fail to control his center or establish Kuzushi...then maybe that camera will film him clocking me.

This really comes down to a "What came first, the chicken or the egg kinda argument". Which again, we are looking at Pain as a relative factor in the situation.

Sure it can be a motivator, sure it can shape the fight, but it is not the primary mechanism for control and IF it does not work, then you have to fall back on something else....that something else is kuzushi or control of center...which is fundamental and primary.

Me persnoally, I am not stopping or waiting around in the progression of the situation to see if pain works...I am worried about getting to the "center of that Tootsie Pop" as soon as I can.

If you ask me where nikkyo comes into play...well think it comes into play not as a primary method of control..but as a secondary...mainly when you are grappling over a weapon...you establish dominance then you isolate and fight over the weapon to control it.

I think we take what we do in waza a little too much and try and apply it as literal tactics....try it out some time. Get some good protective gear like Blauer Suits on and try the various scenarios...see how nikkyo works, see what conditions are necessary to make it work...it is an enlightening experience that will quite possibly change how you see and approach your training!

Abasan
11-17-2009, 10:48 AM
It depends on how much you can generate. Whilst perceived pain can generally be ignored by trained fighters and masochists, pain to the nerves would illicit neuro-muscular response, auto reflex if you may.

A case in point, if you can generate the force of a magnum in your atemi, your opponent will drop irrespective of whether he can take the pain or not. That's force.

If you can generate 20,000 volts like a taser, then the guy is going down regardless if he was a hard core masochist.

But if you're going to just rely on a painful nikyo as opposed to a correct nikyo to keep a guy down... well, lets just say I've seen a sensei take one in the nose thinking he had the whole pain thing together.

Lastly, if you have to rely on pain to get your waza to work, then you might as well throw awase and musubi out the window. The idea is to work in harmony. Aiki is not what you have. Is what you make use of once you learn to accept its nature.

Kevin Leavitt
11-17-2009, 11:00 AM
A case in point, if you can generate the force of a magnum in your atemi, your opponent will drop irrespective of whether he can take the pain or not. That's force.

ahhh, but is it the pain that is causing him to drop or something else? either you are using force to take his center off balance, or you knock him out which has nothing to do with the actual pain. I submit...entirely different set of causation.

If you can generate 20,000 volts like a taser, then the guy is going down regardless if he was a hard core masochist.

It is not the pain that takes him out with the taser, but the interruption of his Nervous System/Electrical wiring...it is an involuntary response...the pain is the side effect.

Lastly, if you have to rely on pain to get your waza to work, then you might as well throw awase and musubi out the window. The idea is to work in harmony. Aiki is not what you have. Is what you make use of once you learn to accept its nature.

Well, I submit the whole harmony thing doesn't mean cooperation. It means I listen to what is being presented to me and work that to my advantage...it could be mutual, or not depending on the situation. However, are we talking philosophy or reality? or a combination of the two which is the "middle way" between the two?

mickeygelum
11-17-2009, 11:23 AM
Salutations to All,

If you perform relatively competent taisabaki, achieve kuzushi with mediocre kamae and ma-ai...Pain in an application is the winning lottery ticket.

Unless your skill is excellent, or your foe is a blind paraplegic with one arm..you better realize you are not going to execute perfect technique. What you would like to execute, and what they will let you execute are completely different. Pain is a byproduct of proper execution.

Everyone talks about centering, connecting or whatever..to accomplish that your avoidance, balance break and posture must occur. After you have attained that point your technique , depending on what it is, will give you pain compliance. We are talking about Aikido right? Because, if you want to dicuss Jujustu, Kali, Karate, Silat or any other arts....the equation morphs.

Personally, I find it annoying that folks want train in Aikido, but are constantly trying to inject punch/kick/knife arts into their Aikido. Do not misunderstand, I cross train for that reason. How many tools can I get into my toolbox, hmmm...there is always room for one more.

Throw the blend and flow right out the window, and you can have pain from the get-go. Get rid of the pins, immobilizations and pretty throws..go back to the breaks, chokes and strikes that are the heritage of Aikido. Now you are discussing pain.

What are you going to do when you encounter someone who is immune to site specific pain, either through trauma, chemically induced or trained to withstand....your fundementals should have accomplished the goal long before you realized this.

Just a few thoughts, Train well,

Mickey

Abasan
11-17-2009, 12:38 PM
Yep Kevin, those examples are the differences I'm getting at. Pain as a result of a certain impetus. Pain as a result of extreme force. Pain as a result of neuro muscular attack. Pain as a result of a joint lock say. Needless to say, pain is unnecessary, its only a by product. If you're looking for effectiveness, I would say 1 and 2 would be effective but you're unlikely to achieve mastery of that anytime soon. And number 3, not that particularly effective.

As for Awase and Musubi being a philosophy as opposed to reality, I kindly disagree. But we don't have to argue on that, I know you're searching for the same thing too and I bet you've met some people closer to that realm than I can ever explain here. I too don't believe in harmony as being uke doing the aiki bunny thing. And Awase or Musubi doesn't require cooperation, not that it required such an explanation really.

Kevin Leavitt
11-17-2009, 01:44 PM
Thank Ahmad, I imagine our differences are semantical at this point!

Kevin Leavitt
11-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Michael Gelum wrote:

Pain is a byproduct of proper execution.

I agree.

Everyone talks about centering, connecting or whatever..to accomplish that your avoidance, balance break and posture must occur. After you have attained that point your technique , depending on what it is, will give you pain compliance. We are talking about Aikido right? Because, if you want to dicuss Jujustu, Kali, Karate, Silat or any other arts....the equation morphs.


Why should the equation morph? Aikido is a principle and philosophically centered art, as such whatever we do should be universal in nature. Tactics aside. Maybe this is what you are saying? i.e there are certain tactics with Silat injected because of the type of weapon? true, however, at the base level, unless you are using a gun for the most part, you have edged weapons and you blunt weapons...what differs might be size, weight or timing of how they are employed.

So why would not the same base principles studied in aikido apply? We are talking fundamentals, not specific tactics, techniques, and proceedures.

Personally, I find it annoying that folks want train in Aikido, but are constantly trying to inject punch/kick/knife arts into their Aikido.

Not sure how to addrss this one. All aikido I know deals with these very things, not sure what you'd call it if you eliminate these things?

Throw the blend and flow right out the window, and you can have pain from the get-go. Get rid of the pins, immobilizations and pretty throws..go back to the breaks, chokes and strikes that are the heritage of Aikido. Now you are discussing pain.


And hence when you throw those things out, what are you left with? How "effective" is this void of the other things?

Does it only work in a certain context? Is it universal any longer? Or is it specific in nature? That is specific to a particular set of conditions?

"Heritage of Aikido" I think the heritage of aikido is based on a model of musubi, which is not so much about the technical aspects of breaks, chokes, etc...but on the fundamentals of control.

The irony is, that say in BJJ...an art that prides itself on chokes, locks, and breaks...the big thing you will hear anyone worth his salt is what? What is paramount in BJJ?

What are you going to do when you encounter someone who is immune to site specific pain, either through trauma, chemically induced or trained to withstand....your fundementals should have accomplished the goal long before you realized this.

I think maybe we are saying the same thing?

I think once you have established dominance, then you are free to explore many options as you state above.

Michael, I think we are really saying the same thing, maybe we are simply dividing and categorizing slightly different?

To me, when you distill and break things down into different steps, at the fundamental level, you have some very basic things going on.

jonreading
11-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Let me see if I can strengthen some of my points...

Since we moved into some discussion about pain as a motivator, I'll throw out this comment. Pain is not a motivator for nage to gauge effectiveness in executing technique; pain is indicator for uke to gauge risk behavior in assessing the bodily harm caused by a technique.

Uke is responsible to manage his (or her) pain in compliance with technique. Nage should be compassionate of a decision by uke to withstand technique even to a point of damage, but not sympathetic. The point of technique (joint locks specifically here) is to control your partner. Whether or not she chooses to comply with the technique comfortably or uncomfortably is irrevelent to the successful application of technique.

We sometimes forget the purpose of technique is to damage our partners. The risk of that damage is sufficient to solicit compliance from our partners in exchange for compassion from us. "I will break your wrist, unless you comply by yielding your body." Without the conviction of damage, the threat is an empty one.

For example, I once heard my instructor (who has some experience working with out of control persons) say that its not the drugs that are why you should be wary of crazed drug addicts, its the fact they [already] chose to destroy their bodies by abusing drugs. When dealing with someone who has choosen to destroy his body with drugs, how do you control that person with a threat to destroy their body?

mickeygelum
11-19-2009, 01:04 PM
Mr Leavitt,

Pardon my untimely response, You are correct, we are saying the same thing.

Concepts, biomechanics and principles are universal. If our training is the perfection of those elements, then the acute similaries in all arts appear. The basic elements (concepts/body mechanics) are constant in all the arts.


Michael, I think we are really saying the same thing, maybe we are simply dividing and categorizing slightly different?

I agree, completely.

Train well,

Mickey

dalen7
11-24-2009, 06:18 PM
Are there any techniques that need pain to make it work?
hmmm...

It seems to be that if the technique works that pain is one of the natural side-effects. [Hence why we practice ukemi to avoid pain, etc.]
The question isn't really "is there pain", but how tolerant are you to the pain that exist.

Also note that when I say if the 'technique works', that Im talking about it as a whole.

i.e.
"Does yonkyo work?"
"Nah"
"Sometimes"

Yonkyo does work, and it will cause pain to everyone.
Whether the technique is suitable for a given situation is another question.

About Yonkyo causing everyone pain, again, this is looking at the technique as a whole. Even if your immune to pressure points, your probably not immune to the feeling of having someone's knee in your shoulder/arm as your arm continues to be torqued back like a hungry man tearing a wing off a cooked chicken. :D

When I practice I like to practice where I 'feel' its working.
If you don't take my balance, I will not go with you and will simulate a punch/elbow to the face, etc.

The term "taking balance" can be misunderstood in the beginning as it encompasses a lot more than what one would initially think, yet it is what it says it is. ;)

The very fact that Aikido is about moving Ukes body parts/joints in directions they are not meant to go in, pretty much guarantees some level of discomfort.

Again, I suppose its all semantics at the end - we are all basically saying the same thing... but know this, there is a lot of 'flow' out there that would never work at all... the understanding of body mechanics isn't even there, and just one smidgen of resistance would throw the whole technique off for that person.

To each their own, its a cool journey... enjoy. :D

Peace

dAlen

Kevin Leavitt
11-24-2009, 09:08 PM
One of the most valuable lessons I learned about knife fighitng was one that I had never really thought about for a long time.

It ain't how many times you stab him or how lethal your "stabs" are, it is how many times he stabs you that is what you are concerned about.

After I figured that paradigm out, I changed how I approached knife work to a strategy that was not oriented so much to stabbing the center of mass to one that was designed to drop him and render him unable to fight due to rendering his body mechanically unable to work via large muscle groups of the legs. If he is cannot stand, he cannot move to fight.

Sort of not related, but I think it also gets to the crux of the issue concerning the relative value of pain to a given situation.

I'd rather default to a set of conditions that I know will work vice one in which "might" work. Hence why I am all about blood chokes when possible for empty handed fighting.

However, of course, life is not perfect and there are a multitude of options we must have at our disposal when dealing with many spectrums of violence, weapons etc...so I think everything has it's place...to include pain.

The level of pain/damage/risk I am willing to personally endure in a class is different (less) than what I am willing to deal with in a tournament, which is different than what I would be willing to deal with in a life or death situation.

Guy with a broken arm can still fight, it all depends on what his motivation and cost/benefit ratio might be.

In all cases of a Rear Naked Choke applied effectively, the result it the same....a nap.

Same with effective kuzushi and effective imobilizations/pins.

mickeygelum
11-25-2009, 12:09 AM
I approached knife work to a strategy that was not oriented so much to stabbing the center of mass to one that was designed to drop him and render him unable to fight due to rendering his body mechanically unable to work

Mr. Leavitt,

Thank you for this statement...I am the prodigal son when it comes to tanto. Tournament, randori, free sparring or whatever...knife changes the environment, "dumbass luck" in a knife encounter can be lethal.

Train well,

Mickey

Kevin Leavitt
11-25-2009, 08:50 AM
Well, I understand it (the mechanics of a fight), but I am NOT the guy to learn tanto dori from as I too have alot to learn in this area.

Mickey, also, please call me Kevin or some other choice statement that might seem appropriate...but not Mr Leavitt! lol!