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kokyu
11-08-2009, 09:01 AM
Recently, I witnessed different initial footwork and arm movements in ushiro ryotedori

My first exposure to ushiro ryotedori can be seen in Yamada Sensei's demonstration here (technique starts at 4:40)

Ushiro ryotedori kotegaeshi 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vtv5Th-wh-c&feature=PlayList&p=AADB37C97B6044B9&index=15)

(Note how both hands come up as Yamada Sensei steps out)

If I understand correctly, the double hand lift is mainly to off-balance uke by making him overextend forward

Then, I've also seen the following:

Ushiro tekubi tori kotagaeshi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSzwY7tdtH8&feature=channel)

(Note how one hand comes up while the other stays at tori's hips)

The second method appears to rely more on using body movement to swing uke to the side, and extending the hand on the forward leg to escape on the other side. It seems to extend the idea of tenchi nage, where uke's energy is split before tori steps out of the grip.

This second method also seems quite popular, but I *am curious* who started this style of movement, as it does not appear in the usual texts

Would also be really interested to hear everyone's views and experience on different ways of moving and getting out of ushiro ryotedori or tekubutori :)

Abasan
11-08-2009, 10:55 AM
The 1st method is a beginning method. There a few ways of doing it and this is perhaps the most common for aikikai. Certainly in shinshintoitsu I've seen 2 other beginning method which really involves the direction that nage moves towards.

The 2nd method looks like he was trying for kino nagare. Here the problem for beginners would be that they will try to go for the hand below and also rely too much on the 'atemi' from the raised hand. In this method if awase hasn't been achieved, kuzushi won't be there. And if kuzushi isn't there, nage is liable to get hit from the quite centered uke. As to how it extends from tenchi nage... hmm well, only if nage is doing aiki age on the up hand and aiki sage on the down hand I suppose. I didn't see it here though.

Since you're also interested in other ways. Another way in shinshintoitsu will take place if uke has nage's hands behind his back. There instead of bring the hands forward and up, nage leaves it behind and bring his hands together by moving his hips in hanmi. One of nage's hands grab uke's wrist. From there he moves uke with his center and swings him around and executes kotegaishe.

ChrisHein
11-08-2009, 11:18 AM
Saito Sensei has a whole series from ushiro ryote, with several different variations. I don't have the time to find the video clip at the moment, but I'm sure if this post sticks around it will pop up.

I think Ueshiba did lots of different things, and you'll see slightly different variations of all escapes from different teachers depending on what phase he was in when that teacher studied with him.

Also because of the technical similarities between Aikido and many Koryu Jujutsu you'll see plenty of cross-overs. It'd be pretty hard to pin down exactly where this variation originates from.

sorokod
11-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Popping up... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFNB4EcmfNw#t=0m51s

There are quite a few of ushiro techniques in that video

tim evans
11-08-2009, 09:24 PM
We have been doing a lot of ushiro waza but the dynamic version is the most difficult anyone know of a video on this.

kokyu
11-09-2009, 07:42 AM
As to how it extends from tenchi nage... hmm well, only if nage is doing aiki age on the up hand and aiki sage on the down hand I suppose. I didn't see it here though.

Not quite tenchi nage... but here is an example of splitting uke's energy with the same technique

Ushiro tekubi tori kokyunage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r_GxaLP_lM&feature=channel)

The 2nd method looks like he was trying for kino nagare
I thought you could go for ki no nagare in the first method as well

Yamada Sensei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meJsh-jSjns)

... But I think the 'one-hand' method works well when uke is smaller then you, as explained here

Wedell Sensei (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcrj_nFgNlM&feature=related)

Since you're also interested in other ways. Another way in shinshintoitsu will take place if uke has nage's hands behind his back.

I've seen this one before... and since I started Aikido in Shinshintoitsu, I believe the basic method is to scoop the hands in front (palms up), and then swing the hands around at the top (palms down) while shifting to one side.

There's also this interesting footwork, with the foot shifting immediately to one side

Tamura Sensei - Ki Society (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PUbroHXVWM&feature=PlayList&p=96F6E9C4D72D2F96&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7#t=0m38s)