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osaya
11-01-2009, 08:49 PM
I've been watching some videos of Daito Ryu demonstrations and whilst sometimes I can see (or think that I see) the control they have on their ukes via kuzushi, atari, musubi, joint locks, etc., which I have seen some aikido teachers do some of, there are certain things that they do in demonstrations that make no physical sense to me...

To start with, why do the ukes seem to show so much intense pain even under very light touch from the DR tori? And I'm not referring to some of the obvious joint locks... In certain techniques the ukes are on their tip-toes grimacing with pain, but the tori are [seemingly] simply lightly connected to their ukes via their finger tips. Hmm?? :confused:

In some techniques, the ukes look like they've either been electrocuted or stunned for a few seconds during and after the techniques. What gives? :dead:

At first I thought these students were hynotised or somewhat participating in an act, but after watching more DR videos from different practitioners, I'm wondering if it's more than that. The ukes reactions (especially of pain) seems fairly genuine. Any insight anyone?

ninjaqutie
11-02-2009, 01:38 PM
I used to take aikijitsu. I can't really say for sure (since I don't know what you are watching), but my dojo used a lot of pressure points (a couple of my teachers fav's was one by the elbow and one near the kidney). It takes very little effort, but it hurts a lot when it is done to you. If you are doing a elbow lock and a pressure point (in preperation to throw for instance) it wasn't uncommon for uke to make a face and raise up on their tippy toes. My sensei used to do this over and over to demonstrate how effective it could be (I say could because some people aren't as sensitive to pressure points- whether muscle hides it or they have a tolerance to it)

Hope that helps...

odudog
11-02-2009, 05:14 PM
Ashley hit it already. Pressure points. Also, just the positioning of the bones or ligiments in the right way/angle creates the pain. You want to get on your tippy toes to try and avoid the realigning of the bones or ligiments to take away the pain.

MM
11-02-2009, 05:32 PM
Ashley hit it already. Pressure points. Also, just the positioning of the bones or ligiments in the right way/angle creates the pain. You want to get on your tippy toes to try and avoid the realigning of the bones or ligiments to take away the pain.

Here's a vid of Okamoto of Roppokai Daito ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyNODVDlOc

Starting at 0:17 and specifically at 0:27-0:30, could you tell me where the pressure points are that Okamoto is using?

While I've never trained with Okamoto, I highly doubt that he is simply using pressure points to affect his students. I'd believe more along the lines that Okamoto was using Daito ryu aiki.

As for demos ... well, Japan is famous for them ... in more ways than one. :)

osaya
11-02-2009, 06:08 PM
I used to take aikijitsu... my dojo used a lot of pressure points (a couple of my teachers fav's was one by the elbow and one near the kidney)... If you are doing a elbow lock and a pressure point (in preperation to throw for instance) it wasn't uncommon for uke to make a face and raise up on their tippy toes.

Ashley hit it already. Pressure points. Also, just the positioning of the bones or ligiments in the right way/angle creates the pain. You want to get on your tippy toes to try and avoid the realigning of the bones or ligiments to take away the pain.

Here's a vid of Okamoto of Roppokai Daito ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyNODVDlOc

Starting at 0:17 and specifically at 0:27-0:30, could you tell me where the pressure points are that Okamoto is using?

Thanks for the feedback guys, I guess in some instances, I can imagine tori using pressure points, but there are some techniques, such as the one that Mark pointed out, that there's no [seemingly] visible way to activate a pressure point.

see Nishikedo Takeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQF2BEw4Rc) 0:44-0:50 as well for instance. any thoughts there?


While I've never trained with Okamoto, I highly doubt that he is simply using pressure points to affect his students. I'd believe more along the lines that Okamoto was using Daito ryu aiki.


Mark, could you elaborate on what you mean by "Daito ryu aiki"?

----

Even if we get past the pressure points, joint locks etc., what about the 'stunned' look that ukes tend to give after some techniques? What's happening there? Are they just resting after so much pain or is still an intentional martial after-effect of whatever is happening?

For instance:

1) Ogawa Tadao: Aiki no Waza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hSsy6KoCU) - you can see some of this throughout the video, but it is especially prominent in the group attacks from more or less 8 minutes onwards, where the ukes all looked stunned for a few seconds with no apparent locks in some of them.

2) Nishikedo Takeo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSQF2BEw4Rc) especially 5:10-5:30 amongst the other bits.

ChrisMoses
11-02-2009, 06:23 PM
I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."

:)

There is a long tradition of trying to make your sensei look awesome, it's not just a DR thing.

osaya
11-02-2009, 07:40 PM
I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."

:)

There is a long tradition of trying to make your sensei look awesome, it's not just a DR thing.

hmm... assuming what you say is true, then it would make sense, because some of the similar techniques i've seen done in aikido do not seem to elicit similar reactions of pain. uke merely has their balance taken, thrown et cetera without the intense grimace on their faces.

it'd be good to have DR practitioners who have tried it first hand to share their own experiences as well aside from our hypothesising. ;)

ninjaqutie
11-02-2009, 11:41 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is some people just don't have a very high pain tolerance and some people just make funny faces for no reason what so ever. HAHA. In the first video posted, I didn't really take those expressions to be ones of pain, but that is just me.

As far as the second video, they look sluggish. There is one guy who I think makes a painful face and that may be for dramatic effect to benefit for the video, but for all we know someone could have stepped on his pinky toe when they were getting up....

In my class, we actually did the thing where people would pick you up and you would make yourself heavy or you would make yourself heavy and then they would try to lift you. Pretty neat if you can mentally focus. Some people would groan with trying to hold up or lft the person and some would make faces due to the effort.

As far as the third video goes, it could be a mix of all of the above. Perhaps they are experiencing things I have never felt. I am certainly not all knowing when it comes to aikijitsu, but hopefully, my thoughts help you a little... HAHA.

One more thing that may be attributing towards their shock or laying there is that sometimes my teacher would intend on doing one thing and then change technique halfway through. You had to just go with it and sometimes you found yourself going "What just happened?" Also, in my dojo, once we were down, we didn't just jump back up, we made sure it was safe and were prepared to fight from the ground if needed before making sure it was safe to stand up.

Interesting videos though.

Buck
11-03-2009, 06:15 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is some people just don't have a very high pain tolerance and some people just make funny faces for no reason what so ever. HAHA. In the first video posted, I didn't really take those expressions to be ones of pain, but that is just me.

As far as the second video, they look sluggish. There is one guy who I think makes a painful face and that may be for dramatic effect to benefit for the video, but for all we know someone could have stepped on his pinky toe when they were getting up....



It is true, in these situation, you have to ask how much ham does the camera put on. People know they are on camera and will naturally or purposely play to the camera. Talk about ki, the camera has it.

Also, in these situations, the camera eye is a narrow one. It doesn't catch everything, but than again it can catch something the eye can miss. Then there is the obvious thing, the camera can be manipulated to show and hide. :hypno:

I am not saying these videos are doing this. I am pointing out these things need to be considered when looking at a video.

:)

Aikibu
11-03-2009, 06:22 PM
I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."

:)

There is a long tradition of trying to make your sensei look awesome, it's not just a DR thing.

Amen I love no touch throw Aiki Bunnies!!! :D

On serious note I wonder if Stan or Ellis knows the History behind such Demos...Do you think that ukes were this "dramatic" in Demo's for the Emperor back in the day...Everyone totes the power of some of the old Masters...

Just Curious...

William Hazen

osaya
11-03-2009, 06:28 PM
On serious note I wonder if Stan or Ellis knows the History behind such Demos...Do you think that ukes were this "dramatic" in Demo's for the Emperor back in the day...Everyone totes the power of some of the old Masters...


true - it'll be nice to hear from people who have significant, direct experience with DR and/or other koryu jujutsu.

Aikibu
11-03-2009, 06:37 PM
Here's a great example of the Power of Aiki?

All this guy has to do is touch uke's and they freeze up in great pain...:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4q4zJ92fNo&feature=related...

Where are these guys on the West Coast I wonder?

William Hazen

ninjaqutie
11-04-2009, 12:12 PM
My sensei told me he went to a demonstration once where the sensei claimed to be able to send his ki across the room and his students would fly backwards and get knocked down while standing feet away from the sensei. Some guy called him on it saying it looked fake and the sensei asked if the mean wanted to feel it. They guy stood up and said "Yes." The sensei then took his stance and sent his ki over to the guy. The guy just stood there. The sensei then asked "Do you feel it?" The guy said no. The sensei made a face, looked like he was straining and said "YOU FEEL IT!" This was more a statement then a question. The guy still replied no. The sensei then put his hands down and walked away. Sensei didn't say what happened after that. He told us this story in a tai chi class one night.

Eric Joyce
11-04-2009, 12:20 PM
To reference a term from Ellis's book HIPS, what the ukes may be suffering from is DRAS (Daito Ryu Accommendation Syndrome). Very similar to AAS (Aikido Accommendation Syndrome) :)

osaya
11-04-2009, 04:05 PM
To reference a term from Ellis's book HIPS, what the ukes may be suffering from is DRAS (Daito Ryu Accommendation Syndrome). Very similar to AAS (Aikido Accommendation Syndrome) :)

aww, i'm really disappointed now. i was wondering/hoping that there was really something 'extra' that i was just unaware about. oh well, back to just training then eh?

odudog
11-04-2009, 05:16 PM
Here's a vid of Okamoto of Roppokai Daito ryu:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQyNODVDlOc

Starting at 0:17 and specifically at 0:27-0:30, could you tell me where the pressure points are that Okamoto is using?

While I've never trained with Okamoto, I highly doubt that he is simply using pressure points to affect his students. I'd believe more along the lines that Okamoto was using Daito ryu aiki.

As for demos ... well, Japan is famous for them ... in more ways than one. :)

I have no idea what is going on in the video. However, I was listening to one koryu jujitsu person who is very legit from a different style. He stated that he had attended some DR seminars and when the DR sensei stopped the technique he would just stand up ready for more yet the DR sensei's students were still wiggling around. He asked the DR sensei what's going on and the DR sensei said that he had no idea why the his students were acting the way they were.

osaya
11-04-2009, 05:43 PM
I have heard a first hand account of Okamoto saying (in the middle of a seminar demonstration), "I'm not hurting them, I have no idea why they're doing this..."


To reference a term from Ellis's book HIPS, what the ukes may be suffering from is DRAS (Daito Ryu Accommendation Syndrome).

I was listening to one koryu jujitsu person who is very legit from a different style. He stated that he had attended some DR seminars and when the DR sensei stopped the technique he would just stand up ready for more yet the DR sensei's students were still wiggling around. He asked the DR sensei what's going on and the DR sensei said that he had no idea why the his students were acting the way they were.

Hmm, barring any offers of direct experience, the 2nd/3rd hand anecdotal accounts seem to be strongly suggesting that the reactions are mostly a case of BS and over-acting. this is quite sad really. i'm still waiting to hear someone credible argue otherwise but i'm restarting to be disillusioned...

Ellis Amdur
11-04-2009, 09:05 PM
So here's the problem I have.
The teacher says he has no idea why the students are doing what they are doing. So why is he letting it happen? Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"
Me, I'd be running, or at least saying, "What the hell are you doing?"
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation. Your dead grandmother is ashamed she gave birth to your mother who gave birth to you!"

Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!
Ellis Amdur

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Damn Ellis, that visualization is gonna stick with me for a while now...thanks!

DH
11-04-2009, 11:17 PM
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation.
E-G-O, and lack of concern for their students in allowing "themselves" to just enjoy the fun. People can try and qualify it any way they like. It is what it is, and most experienced men- see it for what it is.

There are ways to train Aiki to assure honesty that leads to a path that will deepen skills that most men will never attain in their life time, but in order to go down that road; you have to be willing to fail over and over, and fail against your own students-when you train them to grow increasingly in aiki, then train with strangers who will attack all out with a vested interested in tuning you.
In fact it is that very training that will deepen the real power in the art. At a certain point the men with power need to walk away from having people take any kind of ukemi for them. Anything other than all out resistance will continue to weaken you and make you a lesser man.
I found some of the comments by Sagawa particularly poignant. Over and over I felt a kinship with his mentality; he simply would just…not…stop, till he solved every riddle, every failure and dilemma he encountered. I'm not going to bother with quotes or keys to ways to train that he hinted at, or to discuss things I bet he missed and probably never saw because he didn't go down certain roads that would have deepened his skills even more. People aren't ready to hear it.

IME, Daito ryu will forever remain a shadow of what it is truly capable of in the modern age. It cannot be attained with their current training models. Were they to consider altering their training models, the study would proceed to an ever increasing burning in of the essential body skills contained within the art to effect change in very substantial ways. In the process the art would once again prove to be a powerhouse in any venue; Koryu weapons, modern weapons, and in MMA.

There is a way to take the Aiki in the art of Daito ryu beyond the best the Japanese have to offer, but the Japanese are not capable of doing it that I've ever felt, heard or seen. And I don't feel bad about it. When I hear the umbrage from certain people in the art when the videos are critiqued and judged on-line, I am always surprised:
They train they way they do
And they film it.
What sort of reaction do they expect from an increasingly educated world wide community? And how on earth can they be so suprised? They've done it to themselves.
Cheers
Dan

Rob Watson
11-04-2009, 11:26 PM
Here's a great example of the Power of Aiki?

All this guy has to do is touch uke's and they freeze up in great pain...:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4q4zJ92fNo&feature=related...

Where are these guys on the West Coast I wonder?

William Hazen

Not west coasters but from Mass. Maybe they visited once and was infected with something ....Tony Annesi been working his schtick since the 80's. I think he really believes in his abilities. If you want to feel ki balls of fire look into the eyes and ask a certain soke of some willow something arother school what he thinks of this guy.... Of course, maybe I got the wrong impression.

Aikibu
11-04-2009, 11:35 PM
Not west coasters but from Mass. Maybe they visited once and was infected with something ....Tony Annesi been working his schtick since the 80's. I think he really believes in his abilities. If you want to feel ki balls of fire look into the eyes and ask a certain soke of some willow something arother school what he thinks of this guy.... Of course, maybe I got the wrong impression.

LOL No dude I meant why don't we have some of these dudes on the West Coast I would love to have a bit of fun being overwhelmed by Soke Fireballs and stuff...But alas... All the 10 Dans are located elsewhere...Must be something to do with So Cal being a Mecca of Real No BS Martial Arts .:D

William Hazen

Kevin Leavitt
11-04-2009, 11:45 PM
William, I guarantee they are out there in So Cal...you just don't know where to find them! They are everywhere my friend!

The problem is if you go to their seminar you really are agreeing to play by their rules implicitly, so IMO, it becomes difficult and a little wrong to go in with an agenda to screw with them.

I think the best thing to do is either go, be polite and train with an open mind...or don't go at all.

I haven't been to a seminar yet that I either don't agree with everything they are doing, or I don't understand completely. However I am pretty good about the seminars I do go to, so I usually get alot out of going!

That said, based on the Youtube vids shown here...not to bad mouth anyone, but I have not felt compelled to seek any of these guys out based on the vids.

thisisnotreal
11-05-2009, 08:01 AM
... they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' On Rigel IV that *is* sex. I'm not sure I see your point.

DH
11-05-2009, 09:53 AM
The problem is if you go to their seminar you really are agreeing to play by their rules implicitly, so IMO, it becomes difficult and a little wrong to go in with an agenda to screw with them.

Interesting. Is there a point where you can receive the technique and let it stand for its own worth without countering it or "doing" something to the teacher but his efforts are worthless?

Where is it legitimate to stand in front of Geroge Dillman or other "Ki blast" people and see their efforts completely fail, and come on-line and everyone enjoys a good laugh; then see the same community get "offended" when the subject is a beloved Shihan of their's who's lack is obvious to some, while being completely unseen to their student base?

When "the community" is not able to see what is obvious to others, who leads the way? When are some of the budo "giants" nothing more than another version of the same "Ki blasts" guys to others. I guess it all depends on who is doing the testing and judging.

I think the best thing to do is either go, be polite and train with an open mind...or don't go at all.
Thats one way to look at it. Another might be to call it for what it is to the teachers face. Another is to just do your own thing and let it stand, ignore the nut jobs and ner-do-wells and let the masses just flounder like they always have. Budo is a living legacy of giants who stood out from the budo wallpaper. IOW, the vast majoirty of practioners were always nothing more than a measurement of the mean average.

What about abuse in Seminars? What about the host of the seminar and the attendees putting up with it to "gain something?" What does it say about those who accept the behavior? I know an aikido teacher who had both his shoulders torn by a well known teacher.
Who is worse:
The one doing the damage?
The one accepting it?
The one hosting a known abuser?
When is it "damaging" to challenge those teachers on the spot and tell them to leave their own seminar-or just deck them or knock them on their ass? When is assualt of a student a criminal act?
For that matter, when is it "damaging" to the community to accept abuse, or even just plain ineptetude or even poor teaching skills?

That said, based on the Youtube vids shown here...not to bad mouth anyone, but I have not felt compelled to seek any of these guys out based on the vids.

To return to the subject
This man doesn't know aikijujutsu. He has "hosted" (ahh that lovely role) two legitimate teachers of aikijujutsu, and that is where his involvement ends. I have stood in his dojo on several occasions. I could discuss his history and approach to the arts, his skill level and his lineage, but I find it disingenuous for a community to "welcome" discussions of people like him, without discussing the antics of other legitimate teachers who are equally inept, or are abusers, or who simply can't teach.

Any given community defines what they all can agree is a laughing stock and what is martial arts. At the end of the day, is it best to not say anything and let the community waste a lot of valuable time, or be sent to the hospital for making a "perceived" insult to a teacher they didn't see? Or do you stand up and call it for what it is or call a teacher out for abusing people? I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?
Cheers
Dan

thisisnotreal
11-05-2009, 11:13 AM
I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?

Respectfully, I strenuously disagree.
This is a pattern and comment on human nature in general, isn't it?
I see what you mean, and it is, in fact, this way. The establishment of standards is a process, is it not? And it is most easily guided or at least strongly influenced by the *LOUDEST* people, or by means of a lack of, or a corrupt leadership. Nature abhors a vacuum. In whatever scenario, there *will* be someone to emerge as leader, and someone to define the standards for the sheeple.
IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY. But it will be….for the population-at-large who 'choose' to let 'the program' unfold.....BUT each single person alone has a choice. It has a small voice….almost a whisper. But it is there and every person can ‘hear' it. If you want to. I'm just passing through, but seems to me, the best in the world is built from the contributions of people unafraid to stand alone. Those unafraid to believe in themselves, to search out, to point a better way. To point to the truth, or essence of the thing, IOW. The truth is divisive and people will, in general, seek to hear that which ‘tickles their ears.' That's so much more pleasant! And easy.
There is a reason mob-mentality is to be feared. There is a reason there are phrases like "On average, people are average', and "The masses are asses". There is also a phenomenon of population-inversion that can take place in things like this, where subjectivity and judgment are involved; it is involved with both groupthink and the fear of being mocked (i.e. the shame of man). When population inversion has been achieved, nonsense becomes the standard. Black is white, up is down, and evil is good. And all is lost. When this happens, the fall is near. At that point sanity and clear thinking is the exception and not the rule. And there are many MANY examples of this pattern playing out throughout humankind. This is a reason humans have doomed themselves to cyclical patterns throughout history…. It is a big complex mess tied in with leadership, judgment, politics, fear, E-G-O, investment, materialism, laziness, and on and on and on.

I don't know about all those reasons I mention, and I am certainly no leader, but I find myself thinking about these things a lot. And in fact, more and more each day.


I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?

IT SHOULD NOT! Every man stands alone.

For the thread, and to the OP, Sy,
I would suggest, you, as politely as possible PM, Dan, Ellis and Howard Popkin to see if they can and will point you a dojo in your country/state/province/etc and go see for yourself. It is the only answer that will satisfy you, in the end.

And in the meantime; I would suggest to you that there are many different ways of attacking the body…and maybe…just maybe…the ‘magic' you ask about is real; and learnable. If you can find the right teacher. There are, of course, coarse joint-twisting, muscle ripping, etc…and on the other end of the spectrum… there are ways of more subtly manipulating imbalances in the body. Like that Atari vid you threw up. That was an extreme demo to illustrate a principle. Attacking ‘inside' the body of uke via a manipulation of imbalances and a lack of development (i.e. or willful opening)
Randomly yours,
Josh

thisisnotreal
11-05-2009, 11:34 AM
sorry.
<gets down off pedestal>

What I actually *disagree* with is the idea of addressing of the 'crowds'. The 'crowds' are what you see. The individuals are who hear. I assure you they are there. I, for one, am grateful for the people who speak up, with their best, like you Dan, and you Ellis, and you Kevin, just here, in this thread alone.

Thank you.
Josh

Aikibu
11-05-2009, 11:36 AM
William, I guarantee they are out there in So Cal...you just don't know where to find them! They are everywhere my friend!

The problem is if you go to their seminar you really are agreeing to play by their rules implicitly, so IMO, it becomes difficult and a little wrong to go in with an agenda to screw with them.

I think the best thing to do is either go, be polite and train with an open mind...or don't go at all.

I haven't been to a seminar yet that I either don't agree with everything they are doing, or I don't understand completely. However I am pretty good about the seminars I do go to, so I usually get alot out of going!

That said, based on the Youtube vids shown here...not to bad mouth anyone, but I have not felt compelled to seek any of these guys out based on the vids.

Not my experience Kevin. I have been to allot of Seminars and I always show respect However...If the Sensei is a fraud or full of him/herself Both of us will know the second we step on the mat...

We invite everyone to come to Kenji Yoshida's Seminars and get a good mix of other Arts....

I remember the year before last there was a nice older Chinese Lady who came with her daughter to watch the Seminar...She watched her grandchild while her daughter practiced...On Sunday as we were wrapping it up she mentioned she was a long time practitioner of both Bau Gua (Spelling?) and Chi Quong. Yoshida Sensei politely asked her to share a little bit of what she knew...
In a phrase... she blew our minds with her little Demo... Her power and execution were awe inspiring

Just goes to show you that you never know who is truly watching.

Frauds do not last long out here in SoCali. :D Not with guys like Gene Lebell The Gracies Bas Ruttan and hundreds of other legit serious Martial Artists and their students...

With the advent of You Tube hopefully they won't last long anywhere else either. :)

William Hazen

ChrisMoses
11-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Frauds do not last long out here in SoCali. :D Not with guys like Gene Lebell The Gracies Bas Ruttan and hundreds of other legit serious Martial Artists and their students...

With the advent of You Tube hopefully they won't last long anywhere else either. :)

William Hazen

Well it's not SoCal, (http://www.yachigusaryu.com/about.html)but they're definitely on the left coast... It's everywhere. ;)

ninjaqutie
11-05-2009, 12:24 PM
On Sunday as we were wrapping it up she mentioned she was a long time practitioner of both Bau Gua (Spelling?) and Chi Quong.

You are right. There are lots of other ways people spell it too: PaKua, Pa Qua, PaQua, Ba Gua, BaGua, Ba Gwa, or BaGwa, Bāguàzhǎng, etc

That would be a demo I would enjoy watching. I have only done a tiny, tiny bit once during a day seminar my teacher did for our dojo.

Rob Watson
11-05-2009, 12:27 PM
LOL No dude I meant why don't we have some of these dudes on the West Coast I would love to have a bit of fun being overwhelmed by Soke Fireballs and stuff...But alas... All the 10 Dans are located elsewhere...Must be something to do with So Cal being a Mecca of Real No BS Martial Arts .:D

William Hazen

Oh! You are just looking under the wrong rocks my friend. Just follow the smoke and you will find the fireballs on the west coast.

Rob Watson
11-05-2009, 12:55 PM
To return to the subject
This man doesn't know aikijujutsu. He has "hosted" (ahh that lovely role) two legitimate teachers of aikijujutsu, and that is where his involvement ends. I have stood in his dojo on several occasions. I could discuss his history and approach to the arts, his skill level and his lineage, but I find it disingenuous for a community to "welcome" discussions of people like him, without discussing the antics of other legitimate teachers who are equally inept, or are abusers, or who simply can't teach.

Any given community defines what they all can agree is a laughing stock and what is martial arts. At the end of the day, is it best to not say anything and let the community waste a lot of valuable time, or be sent to the hospital for making a "perceived" insult to a teacher they didn't see? Or do you stand up and call it for what it is or call a teacher out for abusing people? I guess it all depends on what the "majority" in any given community can "see" and thus "approve" in a discussion doesn't it?
Cheers
Dan

For some reason I sense this directed at my comments. If not then I beg your pardon.

I have not been in this game long enough to be exposed to enough frauds to be able to call out the ones that others seem to be aware of .. maybe if there was a list somewhere of frauds. I have not been in TA's dojo but I did buy some tapes from him and I then found out some of the history behind them. Viewing the tapes it is clear that he has not changed much in the last 30 years and that 'aiki' youtube is simply goofy to my eyes - I suppose five generations of shame is good enough. I've got no problem calling BS and I expect others to call it on me - I regularly ask those I train with to please not fall down like they have been but at least keep their balance until they have to fall. If I was abused at a seminar I would file charges (I'm pretty squirrley so I hope it would not result in injury - to me at least). I would and have definately told folks to stop doing what they were doing because it is too dangerous - I never got the impression that it ws intentional (I'm sure that happens).

Well it's not SoCal, (http://www.yachigusaryu.com/about.html)but they're definitely on the left coast... It's everywhere. ;)

Now this fellow I have trained with at a seminar (some one elses seminar - no need to drag them into it) on at least two different years and I certainly never felt anything that I would consider aiki (even if one is not supposed to be able to feel it) or special in any other way. As he seems to claim to teach aiki either he was not using it at the time or he has got nothing to show that is of any interest to me. No fire balls either ...

Aikibu
11-05-2009, 02:35 PM
Well it's not SoCal, (http://www.yachigusaryu.com/about.html)but they're definitely on the left coast... It's everywhere. ;)

Come on Chris... That's FRISCO! HA HA HA!

never heard of this guy so I'll have to take your word for it. :)

Now I would imagine the Chinese and Filipino based Arts in NorCal rock the house...

William Hazen

DH
11-05-2009, 03:01 PM
Hello Rob (hope you don't mind the first name use)
No, I meant it in a general sense only.
Everyone critiques the obvious bozos and ner-do-wells of budo by the building of a consensus among an established community. There are quite a few "communities" out there, aren't there? And there is also one in every forum on the web.

If we can't critique and examine the movement of established teachers in the martial arts without "offending" people, then I am no longer willing to critique some lesser guy just to fit in to the "club" and have a laugh. I don't see an *honest* means to resolve that other than to not respond at all. Otherwise I would have to lie.
Case in point Rob, What would you say to me stating that:
"Tony A is as good as Saotome."
Do you have a problem with that?
Do you disagree?
Prove it?
How will you make the case______________?
By concensus!
Every teacher; TMA or bozos, have fans and loyal students all their own, who all see something magical in their sensei, so there ya go. Unfortunately none of that helps anyone at all.....on the web.
So you have to continue to dig around behind the scenes and look for a different more candid consensus, just like it always was.
Cheers
Dan

Aikibu
11-05-2009, 03:06 PM
Oh! You are just looking under the wrong rocks my friend. Just follow the smoke and you will find the fireballs on the west coast.

Actually I think you made my point... For a fraud to survive long in SoCali he/she would have to hide under a rock... :D

Heck So Cal Aikido is still dealing with the Gene LeBell choking out Steven Seagal in about 30 Seconds meme almost 20 years after it happened LOL :D I still get all these wry looks anytime I am in a mixed group of Martial Arts Folks and Aikido comes up in our discussion. :)

I have felt a few Aiki-Jujutsu folks over the years and the only ones that impressed me were East Coasters (and of course Colorado's own Sensei Threadgill :) Awesome human being he is :) )... I can't think of the teachers name ( Sensei Professor Moses???) but I guess he tweaked some things in Aikijujutsu and has(had?) a school in Harlem or Brooklyn. Maybe Howard Popkin knows him?

To make a long story short One of his Senior Students lives here in Malibu is in his mid 60's and is as lean and muscular as a cobra. He tours the country teaching arrest and pain control techniques to LEA's and runs a certified organic farm. When this guy gets a hold of you you feel it. You're not getting out of it until he lets you go and man his Atemi OUCH! :) I have bugged him over the years to teach us but he never spends enough time at home. He's always traveling. Just last weekend I bumped into him again at the Malibu Garden Center and at 63 years old he can do full extension pushups with ease and his Aiki is as solid as a rock.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Thanks you guys for jogging my memory. Maybe it's time to REALLY start bugging him. :)

William Hazen

Howard Popkin
11-05-2009, 04:11 PM
Moses Powell was his name. Crazy speed for a man his size (or any man for that matter).

http://www.schoolsofmosespowell.com/MosesPowell.html

Fred Little
11-05-2009, 04:15 PM
.. I can't think of the teachers name ( Sensei Professor Moses???) but I guess he tweaked some things in Aikijujutsu and has(had?) a school in Harlem or Brooklyn.

Sounds like Moses Powell, one of the best-known students of Professor Florendo Visitacion, aka Professor Vee.

Hope this helps.

FL

osaya
11-05-2009, 04:26 PM
For the thread, and to the OP, Sy,I would suggest, you, as politely as possible PM, Dan, Ellis and Howard Popkin to see if they can and will point you a dojo in your country/state/province/etc and go see for yourself. It is the only answer that will satisfy you, in the end.

I might do just that. =) That said, I'm still quite happy to have opened up this discussion though. I had no intentions of making this a DR/TMA/ki fireball bash fest. Starting as a skeptic myself, after experiencing hints of aiki in the last year of training, I thought that there must've been something else I've been missing, perhaps out of stubbornness or ignorance. This thread appeared to be a bit of reality check, which wasn't what I hoped to find, but useful to realise nonetheless.

And in the meantime; I would suggest to you that there are many different ways of attacking the body…and maybe…just maybe…the ‘magic' you ask about is real; and learnable. If you can find the right teacher.

I'm lucky to have teachers and a group that are very good to train with. Although I'm a little ambitious and hasty, there's still plenty to learn at my dojo. But I'm sure I can use what I've gleaned here in the discussion to build a better/more realistic base for my further explorations down the track.

In the meantime, I'll go PM the people you suggested in a bit just to pick their brains anyway. ;) cheers mate.

Buck
11-05-2009, 05:18 PM
Hello Rob (hope you don't mind the first name use)
No, I meant it in a general sense only.
Everyone critiques the obvious bozos and ner-do-wells of budo by the building of a consensus among an established community. There are quite a few "communities" out there, aren't there? And there is also one in every forum on the web.

If we can't critique and examine the movement of established teachers in the martial arts without "offending" people, then I am no longer willing to critique some lesser guy just to fit in to the "club" and have a laugh. I don't see an *honest* means to resolve that other than to not respond at all. Otherwise I would have to lie.
Case in point Rob, What would you say to me stating that:
"Tony A is as good as Saotome."
Do you have a problem with that?
Do you disagree?
Prove it?
How will you make the case______________?
By concensus!
Every teacher; TMA or bozos, have fans and loyal students all their own, who all see something magical in their sensei, so there ya go. Unfortunately none of that helps anyone at all.....on the web.
So you have to continue to dig around behind the scenes and look for a different more candid consensus, just like it always was.
Cheers
Dan

Good points. Agreed. :)

Erick Mead
11-05-2009, 05:31 PM
Science means "knowledge." Consensus means "feeling together."


"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. ... Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. ... If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period. " It does no one any good to claim consensus unless the issue is merely political. I assume the issue is NOT merely political so a different standard might be advisable.
:)

Aikibu
11-05-2009, 05:42 PM
Thanks Howard and Fred. That's my friends Teacher...

Hopefully he'll return my call and spend some time with me. :)

William Hazen

gregstec
11-05-2009, 06:36 PM
To the original poster (and anyone else that may be interested)

IMO, trying to find definitive answers to the validity of someone's expertise based on videos from armchair experts in the cyper space community, who are full of internal disillusions of their own capabilities, will get you no where - although there are people out there that know what they are talking about, you will need to filter out who they are from those that do not.

As mentioned many, many times; by many, many people in these threads, the only way to find the answer is to get out and feel these experts yourself, or get with someone else with a direct connection to them - period!

To find out who these people may be, try doing a little research on this site as well as other MA sites that have forums with threads related to what you want to know. After reading the threads, you should be able to determine who may have more info that may help you. As someone else mentioned, send a polite PM to these people - you may be surprised at the level of helpfulness you get from them based on the level of your sincerity.

Good luck in your to search,

Greg Steckel

Rob Watson
11-05-2009, 07:33 PM
Hello Rob (hope you don't mind the first name use).

By all means, feel free.

No, I meant it in a general sense only.
Everyone critiques the obvious bozos and ner-do-wells of budo by the building of a consensus among an established community. There are quite a few "communities" out there, aren't there? And there is also one in every forum on the web.

If we can't critique and examine the movement of established teachers in the martial arts without "offending" people, then I am no longer willing to critique some lesser guy just to fit in to the "club" and have a laugh. I don't see an *honest* means to resolve that other than to not respond at all. Otherwise I would have to lie.

I got ya. Take the high road. Some of us do tend to find ourselves dragging parts in the gutter while well meaning but lacking a bit of aplumb and decorum. I do tend towards the bull in the china shop on ocassion ... I do have to say that fitting into the 'club' has never been of any interest to me so that part of it does not ring true to me and I'm certainly no alone on that point either.

I don't mind offending folks (some can't help but be offended) if the criticism is well intentioned. Simply asking a question should not evoke rancor. If it does then one tends to have the answer they need without actually getting a direct answer to ones question.

Case in point Rob, What would you say to me stating that:
"Tony A is as good as Saotome."
Do you have a problem with that?
Do you disagree?
Prove it?
How will you make the case______________?
By concensus!
Every teacher; TMA or bozos, have fans and loyal students all their own, who all see something magical in their sensei, so there ya go. Unfortunately none of that helps anyone at all.....on the web.
So you have to continue to dig around behind the scenes and look for a different more candid consensus, just like it always was.
Cheers
Dan

I originally had a great verbose reply but instead I'd opt not to make direct comparisons. Instead: Does 'A' have what I'm looking for? Does 'B' have what I'm looking for? Not so much is 'A' better than 'B'?

Do I have a problem with that? Nope.

Do I disagree? Yup.

Of course Tony A has got nothing on Saotome ( I know , I just made a direct comparison). Prove it? I don't feel a compelling need to ... Besides, it would depend more on what you would accept as proof than anything I'd have to offer. I don't think '4 out of 5 dentists' would cut the mustard.

Make the case? I'm only going on the vids I've seen of both and have no first hand experience of Tony A or Saotome. If you are going to claim that my assessments are colored by consensus (I don't think they are) then I got nothing. Bald faced (despite the goatee) assertion will be my MO!

Trying to bring this back around to the OT ... I certainly have seen and experienced dive bunnies but never saw anybody flop around like the DR guys referenced. Any diving I saw was mostly from folks that really didn't know any better - they kind of thought they were supposed to (resistance=conflict=bad, etc) until I tried to explain to them a better way. Some have come around but some have not. Never have I experienced anybody gyrating themselves into positions like those on the Tony A youtube either.

If somebody starts flopping around like that for me I'd call an ambulance because that is sure signs of brain damage 'round these parts.

Rob Watson
11-05-2009, 07:54 PM
[...but I find it disingenuous for a community to "welcome" discussions of people like him, without discussing the antics of other legitimate teachers who are equally inept, or are abusers, or who simply can't teach.

I would very much like to see the latter as the former needs no such exposure-it is already plain to see. But I also enjoy kicking hornets nests ... However, I can't explain the Dillman or Jukokai stuff - must be something in the water.

The damage done to the arts by the former is limited (still may be substantial) but the latter is a greater sin.

The ground rules would need to be clearly stated and rigouously upheld or there is no point. Even then it will get ugly quickly.

Buck
11-05-2009, 10:31 PM
Good points. Agreed. :)

I disagree with myself, but that is me. I mean I agree...in a different context with myself, but disagree in another context. But I don't know what that really has to do with the original post. :eek:

Kevin Leavitt
11-05-2009, 11:09 PM
All good points worth considering Dan. Went to a seminar with one Dilman's protege's years ago.

The problem I ran into was as much as I really wanted to screw with they guy, there was a room full of folks that really wanted to believe it. Some of them were friends of mine.

Training was contextual and controlled. I was not really in a position to screw around with them too much as I would have really looked like a dick and I believe it would have caused more trouble than good.

So I politely screwed around a little, enough to figure it out and invalidate it for my own use, then never bothered to go back.

If the masses want to believe in it...I say let them, I found out I wasn't gonna convinced them otherwise.

wideawakedreamer
11-06-2009, 12:19 AM
So here's the problem I have.
The teacher says he has no idea why the students are doing what they are doing. So why is he letting it happen? Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"
Me, I'd be running, or at least saying, "What the hell are you doing?"
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation. Your dead grandmother is ashamed she gave birth to your mother who gave birth to you!"

Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!
Ellis Amdur

THis has got to be the funniest post on Aikiweb I've ever read. Now how do I get rid of the image in my head?:D

Marc Abrams
11-06-2009, 08:26 AM
So here's the problem I have.
The teacher says he has no idea why the students are doing what they are doing. So why is he letting it happen? Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"
Me, I'd be running, or at least saying, "What the hell are you doing?"
So why does a martial arts teacher not say, "What are you doing? Get up off the floor, you are embarassing yourself and your entire family down to the fifth generation. Your dead grandmother is ashamed she gave birth to your mother who gave birth to you!"

Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!
Ellis Amdur

Ellis:

Have you not learned the art of "No Touch Orgasm"? How else do you think that immaculate conception occurs? :D

Marc Abrams

gregstec
11-06-2009, 06:34 PM
Ellis:

Have you not learned the art of "No Touch Orgasm"? How else do you think that immaculate conception occurs? :D

Marc Abrams

"No touch orgasm" - that is some good mental intent - must add that to the IT curriculum, might help drum up some more interest from the decadent crowd :)

Greg

wideawakedreamer
11-06-2009, 09:20 PM
Ellis:

Have you not learned the art of "No Touch Orgasm"? How else do you think that immaculate conception occurs? :D

Marc Abrams

Oooooh, please show me. On second thought, please don't. :eek: :D

Buck
11-07-2009, 03:08 PM
Imagine hooking up with some attractive person who dovetails with whatever your sexual orientation is, and you run your finger down your hook up's arm and they start going, "Aooooogah, Aoooogah, Aoooogah" And you stop touching them but they start rolling on the floor, going , "Oh, baby, don't stop, don't stop, Aoooogah, Aooogah!" Are you going to be, like, "Yeah, baby! You want some more?' waving your hands around in the air and they are going, "Aaaoooooooooooooooogha" (whooops, sorry, mispelled that) Aaaoooooooogah!"


That definitely would be no fun at all, if you where the one doing the one finger orgasm technique. Just for that reason is why it isn't in the Karma Sutra, or the Joy of Sex. This one finger technique described sounds more applicable to the solo act, if you know what I mean.

But then again, a one finger technique might be very profitable to those in the pleasure for sale industry.

Hey, if you could do that one finger orgasm technique you could go out and touch someone in that special way. If your at a meeting and your proposal isn't going well, all you would have to do is go around touching people. You would be the most popular person in the office. Or, if your boss is screaming at you, all you have to do is touch the boss and all the boss remembers is that wonderful feeling you give them. It would give new meaning to butt kissing. But of course, you would have make sure they had change of underwear.

Demetrio Cereijo
11-07-2009, 03:43 PM
That definitely would be no fun at all, if you where the one doing the one finger orgasm technique. Just for that reason is why it isn't in the Karma Sutra, or the Joy of Sex.

But it is in Sinanju.

Mark Mueller
11-07-2009, 04:00 PM
"Man, I've been doing this stuff for forty years and sometimes, martial arts are so stupid!"
Ellis Amdur

I would change "arts" to artists".......just saying

Buck
11-07-2009, 04:49 PM
My bad, the Taoists went beyond one finger to the "no touch O" technique as explained by
Saida Désilets, Ph.D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1nn-PHA0pg&feature=fvw)

Rob Watson
11-07-2009, 05:59 PM
But it is in Sinanju.

Lies! The venerable art of Sinanju has three specific methods for the desired effect but none are one or no touch.

http://www.sinanju.com/SHOREMO.HTM

Besides, the writhing is genuine and not fake as seen in the referenced youtube by the OP.