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tyson
10-27-2009, 08:43 AM
Hello and osu,
Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

jss
10-27-2009, 08:51 AM
1. Aikido is a form of Japanese jujutsu. Jujutsu implies grappling.
2. We don't train atemi frequently enough.

Abasan
10-27-2009, 09:33 AM
We don't.

Janet Rosen
10-27-2009, 09:44 AM
I don't.

jss
10-27-2009, 09:52 AM
Then what do you all you non-grapplers do? Besides being terse, that is. ;)

ninjaqutie
10-27-2009, 10:13 AM
Maybe you should define what you mean by grappling, because I haven't been to many aikido dojo's where it is a staple.

ChrisMoses
10-27-2009, 11:21 AM
A static grab is not grappling. Aikido would be SO much better if it started with real grappling (by which I mean basic judo tachiwaza).

Abasan
10-27-2009, 11:23 AM
I cut to the point.

Hmmm, terse is good! :)

Kevin Leavitt
10-27-2009, 11:42 AM
I grapple and it was helpful for me to come to terms with this process in my aikido since static grabs simply don't do much for me personally.

Grappling gave'/gives me a context in which to work through things and to develop real skills and to have experiences in a dynamic environment.

It is an important element for me.

That said, I am using that base to "move away" from grappling and to try find something of a higher skill which kinda negates grappling...I am working on that.

I don't, however, understand how you can reach this understanding without understanding the physical struggle of grappling and be able to deal with it....so, it is still an important part of my training and I think it always will.

As far as Aiki goes though...I don't believe that grappling does much to teach those skills and if you don't keep grappling in the right context of your training then it can actually hurt you in your development.

So, no....it is not necessary to grapple to learn aikido. I believe Aikido is about transcending this process..however, I also believe that training context in the form of grappling, kicks, punches etc are important to understand if you want to have a holistic view of budo.

There are plenty of peope out there that practice aikido without this that I think are great human beings, are learning what they are want to without this aspect...and are better for it...so YMMV on this subject.

Kevin Leavitt
10-27-2009, 11:44 AM
I cut to the point.

Hmmm, terse is good! :)

lol...you and Janet didn't "grapple" with this question at all did you?

hmmm lots of wisdom in there maybe!

Janet Rosen
10-27-2009, 05:05 PM
"Just the facts, ma'am" :-)

sorokod
10-28-2009, 02:50 AM
Then what do you all you non-grapplers do? Besides being terse, that is. ;)

Kumitachi and Kumijo.

Abasan
10-28-2009, 03:08 AM
Kevin,

I think he meant as in Aikido-Grappling as opposed to Extra Curricular Grappling like you're doing with BJJ...

Which funnily enough, I'm trying to persuade my missus to try out since she's flipped the coin on Aikido going from total devotion to total hatred.

Anyway, I'm planning to take BJJ next year hopefully... but there's too many things going on at once right now with my struggles to learn aiki from a sensei living in another country, Kali, Silat and life...
So here's hoping.

Btw, Leo Vieira was here to do a 2 day BJJ seminar recently. My friends all commented that this guy grapples very softly very aiki like even against MMA level competitors. This I like. Unfortunately his seminar fees can bust my piggy bank with my upcoming Indonesian trip this weekend so I gave it a miss.

Phil Van Treese
10-28-2009, 01:02 PM
I never knew there was "so much grappling" in Aikido. I know in my dojo, we do grappling alot like we always do in Tomiki Aikido. The concept is that you have to fight as well on the ground as you do standing. There is no guarantee that you won't wind up on the ground so it's always best to be prepared.

Janet Rosen
10-28-2009, 02:33 PM
I notice the OP hasn't replied to clarify his question...

Kevin Leavitt
10-28-2009, 03:57 PM
Kevin,

I think he meant as in Aikido-Grappling as opposed to Extra Curricular Grappling like you're doing with BJJ...

Which funnily enough, I'm trying to persuade my missus to try out since she's flipped the coin on Aikido going from total devotion to total hatred.

Anyway, I'm planning to take BJJ next year hopefully... but there's too many things going on at once right now with my struggles to learn aiki from a sensei living in another country, Kali, Silat and life...
So here's hoping.

Btw, Leo Vieira was here to do a 2 day BJJ seminar recently. My friends all commented that this guy grapples very softly very aiki like even against MMA level competitors. This I like. Unfortunately his seminar fees can bust my piggy bank with my upcoming Indonesian trip this weekend so I gave it a miss.

Leo is a awesome guy a real gentleman! I used to train with his instructor Jacare some and Jacare introduced me to him at the European BJJ Championships in 2008 in Lisbon.

Is there any other way really? (soft).

What you will find in BJJ is that at first you are overwhelmed with the difference in movements...much like you were in aikido.

The tendency is to use fast and strong movements. You will even have alot of success against white/blue belts, but as you progress, this is not the case at the upper purple/brown/black belt level as every strong proprioceptive movement is picked up well before you move so you have to learn how to relax, control center, breath and move in a very effiicient and precise way.

I am personally working very hard and slowing this way down and being very soft and very gentle..it is hard because you have to invest very heavily in failure and it is very tempting to go back to strength and speed.

Nah, my grappling is not so extra curriclular these days and I really make no distinction in the randori or waza practice as to me, it is all the same...the goal is that there is no difference about your application or movement in Aikido or BJJ...it is all the same.

Lyle Bogin
10-28-2009, 05:38 PM
It's because holding is more gentle, and often more effective, than hitting.

Kevin Leavitt
10-28-2009, 06:20 PM
awwww.....that is sooo nice Lyle! :)

I'll go one further...engaging without touching is even better than that!

Ketsan
10-28-2009, 06:49 PM
Hello and osu,
Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

That's kinda like asking why a Thai boxer uses so much striking. :D

Ketsan
10-28-2009, 06:57 PM
A static grab is not grappling. Aikido would be SO much better if it started with real grappling (by which I mean basic judo tachiwaza).

Then it would be Judo. The basic strategy of Aikido is to flatten your opponent before he can resist, not deliberately get into a resistive situation and try and free yourself from your own mistake. :D

Ketsan
10-28-2009, 07:05 PM
I feel really old reading this thread. Seriously when I started martial arts about 12 years ago everyone knew that some arts were grappling arts and some were striking arts. Boxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Kickboxing and Karate were the striking arts and Judo, Wrestling, Aikido and Jujutsu were the grappling arts. Everyone knew this.

Then the UFC and BJJ came along and now all you kids with your new fangled ideas think that the only grappling art is BJJ. I feel so old.

Ketsan
10-28-2009, 07:28 PM
Then what do you all you non-grapplers do? Besides being terse, that is. ;)

Had to be asked really, didn't it? If you're claiming to be an Aikidoka and you claim you don't grapple then one must conclude that you only practice no touch throws.

Grapple:

–verb (used without object) 1. to hold or make fast to something, as with a grapple.
2. to use a grapple.
3. to seize another, or each other, in a firm grip, as in wrestling; clinch.
4. to engage in a struggle or close encounter (usually fol. by with): He was grappling with a boy twice his size.
5. to try to overcome or deal (usually fol. by with): to grapple with a problem.

–verb (used with object) 6. to seize, hold, or fasten with or as with a grapple.
7. to seize in a grip, take hold of: The thug grappled him around the neck.

–noun 8. a hook or an iron instrument by which one thing, as a ship, fastens onto another; grapnel.
9. a seizing or gripping.
10. a grip or close hold in wrestling or hand-to-hand fighting.
11. a close, hand-to-hand fight.

Kevin Leavitt
10-28-2009, 08:09 PM
I feel really old reading this thread. Seriously when I started martial arts about 12 years ago everyone knew that some arts were grappling arts and some were striking arts. Boxing, Muay Thai, TKD, Kickboxing and Karate were the striking arts and Judo, Wrestling, Aikido and Jujutsu were the grappling arts. Everyone knew this.

Then the UFC and BJJ came along and now all you kids with your new fangled ideas think that the only grappling art is BJJ. I feel so old.

Of course not...however, BJJ offers us the best chance these days of experiencing grappling with the most minimal amount of rules and the use of a Gi/clothing with maybe the exception of sambo.

There is the GAME of BJJ which is played alot on your back and in many respects does not represent reality per se.

BUT, from all my experiences, I have found it to be free enough to be a wonderful fit to work through the same lessons we are dealing with in aikido.

Judo is also a wonderful art and does a great job of working throws, however, it has become such a sport that has become almost too and they simply do not practice ne waza enough in most cases to make it a good match for learning the lessons we are trying to learn in aikido.

That said, Judo is also a decent fit I think out of all the grappling forms since it does have the basic elements and you have a Gi/Clothing.

Sambo, which is not as well known in the US is very good as well...and they wear a Gi.

Then there are all the forms of wrestling which do not wear a Gi. I prefer Greco Roman as an Adjunct practice because of the rules dealing with throws and takedowns which allow someone to learn some very good skills in this area without a gi.

But again, it does not have a Gi so very difficult to work on developing skills and slowing down the fight to a workable level. I find that speed, agility, and athleticism become very important factors since you don't have a GI.

Done right though, it can be a very good practice as well...I just think wrestling with No Gi's are harder to learn and do not approximate "DA STREET" maybe as well as GI based arts.

Submission Grappling (NO GI) is decent, but you will find that most guys that do this sport spend a fair amount of time in a GI as well to round out there training.

I know several coaches in the UFC area that are advocates of there guys training with Gis in order to develop skills.

That, however, is a constant debate in the GI/NO GI community about which is better for MMA type fighting.

Anyway, as usual YMMV. I simply prefer BJJ as I have found it to be technical enough, and slow enough to allow you the opportunity to fully explore the principles we are trying to explore.

David Yap
10-28-2009, 08:21 PM
Had to be asked really, didn't it? If you're claiming to be an Aikidoka and you claim you don't grapple then one must conclude that you only practice no touch throws.


Alex,

Beside no touch throws, I also do no touch ikkyu, nikkyu, sankyu and yonkyu. I can even do a fantastic no touch shihonage.

All in my solo practice, of course :D

Cheers,

David Y

Kevin Leavitt
10-28-2009, 08:23 PM
David....did you just do your breakfall?....I just did ikkyu to you.

David Yap
10-28-2009, 09:00 PM
David....did you just do your breakfall?....I just did ikkyu to you.

Thanks, Kevin, for the ikkyu.

I was sitting on my throne when your ikkyu came. It literally took the shit of me. :eek:

L. Camejo
10-28-2009, 09:39 PM
I never knew there was "so much grappling" in Aikido. I know in my dojo, we do grappling alot like we always do in Tomiki Aikido. The concept is that you have to fight as well on the ground as you do standing.
This is a very curious statement. Tomiki was adamant that the ma ai of Aikido precluded the execution of Ju-waza with his concept of rikaku taisei or waza that can be applied outside of Judo grappling range (iow aiki waza). Basically if one mastered the ma ai of aiki waza then one never gets into the range where close range hip/leg/shoulder throws and takedowns can be executed, which means that it will be very unlikely that one will end up in a ground grappling situation.

Tomiki saw Judo and Aikido as separate Budo sharing common principles. In that light I don't think he ever taught ground grappling as part of his Aikido, since this was strictly part of the Judo syllabus. If one wanted to grapple or do newaza one would study Judo, he did not mix them afaik.

I think if one is looking at Budo holistically one needs to understand ground grappling, but it is not necessary for the understanding of aikido waza if one has an effective training method imho.

Best
LC

Stormcrow34
10-29-2009, 07:24 AM
Hello and osu,
Why do we use so much grappling in Aikido?

I'm no expert and I'm not sure about "Aikido", but in Yoseikan Budo, which has significant elements of Aikido, we recognize events don't always happen as we plan them. Often times, the uke responds in an unexpected, unchoreographed manner, so it is best to prepare for all ranges.

Phil Van Treese
11-17-2009, 01:14 PM
A static grab is not grappling. Aikido would be SO much better if it started with real grappling (by which I mean basic judo tachiwaza).

Grappling in judo is newaza, not tachi waza. Tachi waza is standing techniques.

Phil Van Treese
11-17-2009, 01:21 PM
This is a very curious statement. Tomiki was adamant that the ma ai of Aikido precluded the execution of Ju-waza with his concept of rikaku taisei or waza that can be applied outside of Judo grappling range (iow aiki waza). Basically if one mastered the ma ai of aiki waza then one never gets into the range where close range hip/leg/shoulder throws and takedowns can be executed, which means that it will be very unlikely that one will end up in a ground grappling situation.

Tomiki saw Judo and Aikido as separate Budo sharing common principles. In that light I don't think he ever taught ground grappling as part of his Aikido, since this was strictly part of the Judo syllabus. If one wanted to grapple or do newaza one would study Judo, he did not mix them afaik.

I think if one is looking at Budo holistically one needs to understand ground grappling, but it is not necessary for the understanding of aikido waza if one has an effective training method imho.

Best
LC

As I have trained under Tomiki Shihan for many years (15), we did a lot of tachi waza and as we took them to the ground, we would go into ne waza---shime waza, kansetsu waza etc. Shiho nage would lead into Kata Gatame and then to juji gatame etc, etc. Tomiki Shihan did not mix the arts but you did train paralleling each art and work on the ability to switch from one technique to another.

Kevin Leavitt
11-17-2009, 01:24 PM
agree that newaza is ground technique, and tachi waza is standing...however, grappling occurs in BOTH orientations I think if you want to be more specific and accurate.

ChrisMoses
11-17-2009, 01:24 PM
Grappling in judo is newaza, not tachi waza. Tachi waza is standing techniques.

Grappling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grappling) is an English word, thus my clarification. Grappling is not exclusively newaza.

Phil Van Treese
11-27-2009, 02:37 PM
"Grappling" in tachi waza is called "Kumi Kata"--Gripping or grip fighting. "Grappling" on the mat is Newaza.

Flintstone
11-27-2009, 02:51 PM
"Grappling" in tachi waza is called "Kumi Kata"--Gripping or grip fighting. "Grappling" on the mat is Newaza.
You mean Go no Keiko is Kumi Kata?

Adam Huss
11-27-2009, 08:29 PM
Well as it pertains to so much "grabbing" in aikido (without getting caught up in the semantics of what grappling is or isn't):

Practicality:
Grabbing techniques is a great way to begin learning techniques b/c one doesn't have to worry about intercepting an attack...the person has already grabbed (ok, this isn't for everybody...my style usually practices that they guy or gal has already grabbed you before you start technique). So this body to body connection has already been made, thus making it "easier" to some extent. Well, simpler, not easier.

Historically:
Aikido is derived from Aikijujustsu, which is basically derived from what I call a form of Samurai Line training (what the US Marine Corps used to call hand to hand combat for the battlefield). Since samurai wore armor, kicking and punching were more or less worthless. Thus techniques that focused on manipulating the weak parts of the armor (ie, joints) was focused on (terrible grammar, sorry). The focus most groups do on open-hand to weapon combat is also a derivative of the idea that a warrior could lose/break a weapon and need to defend against armed attack.

At least that's pretty much what I would say if asked that questions on the koto shitsumon portion of a test.

L. Camejo
11-28-2009, 06:35 AM
As I have trained under Tomiki Shihan for many years (15), we did a lot of tachi waza and as we took them to the ground, we would go into ne waza---shime waza, kansetsu waza etc. Really? Care to give the exact times and places where this training happened? I personally know a few people who trained with Tomiki Shihan so it would be good to compare notes.

Shiho nage would lead into Kata Gatame and then to juji gatame etc, etc. Tomiki Shihan did not mix the arts but you did train paralleling each art and work on the ability to switch from one technique to another.The ability to switch between Tachi and Newaza is something that anyone with enough training in Judo and Aikido can develop. This is an element of ones personal development as a martial artist but is not necessarily representative of ones training system. If I cross train in Muay Thai and use it in my personal training and sparring it does not mean that Muay Thai is part of the official Aikido syllabus.

Regardles of what Tomiki may or may not have done during his own personal exploration of Budo, the Shodokan Aikido system that he founded does not allow such transitions as part of its training syllabus. In the execution of Tachi waza if one has become vulnerable to any sort of newaza from a Shodokan perspective it means that ones use of sen, kamae, tai sabaki, ma ai and tegatana were poor. The whole point of the Kihon exercises done at the beginning of every class is to develop these core areas.

It is important to differentiate personal experience from what the system actually teaches. I have no doubt that Tomiki could switch effortlessly between Ju and Aiki waza including newaza, but it does not mean that this is what he wanted to pass on as the fundamentals of his Aikido.

agree that newaza is ground technique, and tachi waza is standing...however, grappling occurs in BOTH orientations I think if you want to be more specific and accurate. Kevin is correct imho.

Just my thoughts.

LC

Flintstone
11-29-2009, 05:15 AM
It is important to differentiate personal experience from what the system actually teaches. I have no doubt that Tomiki could switch effortlessly between Ju and Aiki waza including newaza, but it does not mean that this is what he wanted to pass on as the fundamentals of his Aikido.
Well, this is the fundamental point of the Aikido of Mochizuki Sensei. Judo Aikido Ichi. And this is (I believe) what he wanted to pass on as (one of) the fundamentals of his Aikido.

L. Camejo
11-29-2009, 01:24 PM
Well, this is the fundamental point of the Aikido of Mochizuki Sensei. Judo Aikido Ichi. And this is (I believe) what he wanted to pass on as (one of) the fundamentals of his Aikido.Should that not be Judo, Aikido, Karate Ichi? Or is Karate not part of Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo?

Tomiki saw Aikido as a section of Japanese Budo (Atemi and Kansetsu Waza) that could stand on its own merits without one needing to resort to Judo waza (or anything else) to make it work. This is part of why he formulated the method that he did. As a very skilled Judoka who was rendered helpless by Ueshiba's Aiki early in their relationship I think he realised that there was a skillset within Aikido that was important to preserve and understand. Something that his years of Judo training may not have prepared him for. I think in that light he felt it better to maintain separate training methods for the two arts, even though they relied on the same basic principles.

Imho of course.

LC

Kevin Leavitt
11-29-2009, 02:50 PM
Interesting Larry...thanks for that insight.

Flintstone
11-29-2009, 05:54 PM
Should that not be Judo, Aikido, Karate Ichi? Or is Karate not part of Mochizuki's Yoseikan Budo?
Actually, the first (and I would say most fundamental) kata in the Yoseikan is Happoken, eight striking and blocking movements...

Tomiki saw Aikido as a section of Japanese Budo (Atemi and Kansetsu Waza) that could stand on its own merits without one needing to resort to Judo waza (or anything else) to make it work. This is part of why he formulated the method that he did. As a very skilled Judoka who was rendered helpless by Ueshiba's Aiki early in their relationship I think he realised that there was a skillset within Aikido that was important to preserve and understand. Something that his years of Judo training may not have prepared him for. I think in that light he felt it better to maintain separate training methods for the two arts, even though they relied on the same basic principles.
Yes, you're right. What I meant is that even when Tomiki separated the two in his method, Mochizuki believed in a Sogo Budo, with go, ju and aiki principals as an integrated whole. Not to forget the buki waza of the Yoseikan Shinto Ryu.

At the end of the day, it's what Tomiki also said: "Aikido is judo at a distance". I see a shared point between Tomiki and Mochizuki here.

Kevin Leavitt
11-29-2009, 06:46 PM
Good discussion. I think that is why I like all three AIkido, Judo, and BJJ. Aikido does an in depth study in one range (mid range). One in which weapons work very well. Judo does a good job, I think, working close range, stand up, grappling, and BJJ, of course ne waza.

Of course, there are things that can be added and assumed in each phase with cross over, but I think, they each have merit in and of themselves.

I also believe in studying them separate and distinct as I get a great deal out of the experts that have refined skills in each of these systems that might be lost if they were combined.

Anyway...just some thoughts, good discussion.

Flintstone
11-30-2009, 06:06 AM
I also believe in studying them separate and distinct as I get a great deal out of the experts that have refined skills in each of these systems that might be lost if they were combined.
That's a good way to put it. The only glitch I see with that aproach is the transition between the arts. You also need to study and practice them, but then I suppose that at a certain level you pretty much can figure out how to transition.

Thanks. Me likes the thread too ;)

Stormcrow34
11-30-2009, 07:58 AM
That's a good way to put it. The only glitch I see with that aproach is the transition between the arts. You also need to study and practice them, but then I suppose that at a certain level you pretty much can figure out how to transition.

Thanks. Me likes the thread too ;)

This is a good discussion.

I think that another common bond between Tomiki and Mochizuki is their belief in various types of randori and competition for the benefit of learning. In my experience there is a large gap between paired kata training with varied levels of resistance and even shite randori. And then yet another gap from shite to jiyu randori. In my (limited) opinion, training with increasing levels of resistance combined with increasing levels of uncertainty during randori, steadily bring it all together while maintaining fundamentals.

Thank the heavens and Judo's influence for randori.

Kevin Leavitt
11-30-2009, 09:09 AM
That's a good way to put it. The only glitch I see with that aproach is the transition between the arts. You also need to study and practice them, but then I suppose that at a certain level you pretty much can figure out how to transition.

Thanks. Me likes the thread too ;)

What has been most interesting to me is the figuring it out piece.

Each Method (Aikido, Judo, BJJ) invokes rules, norms, assumptions, restrictions, etc.

So when I started BJJ as an Aikidoka, I thought "no problem, I will pick this up quickly!" I didn't. Then going from Judo from BJJ, thought the same thing...of course I got tossed alot.

"how can I be that much of a beginner?" I thought each time, it is the same stuff!

Yet each practice represents a distillation of a practice and the practicioners of that methodology get quite adept at exploiting the rules/strategies that are "allowed".

So, while you have "skillz" you are all messed up when you....for example, Can't bend over at the waist stall and grab the pant leg in Judo. Or in Jiu Jitsu you find that laying on your back for 25 seconds is not a good thing in Judo....or that in Aikido that awesome gripping game you develop in Judo doesn't quite cut it if the guy can strike you or has a knife.

So, I think it gives you the opportunity to practice and learn some finer details that each system/method has refined by restricting the practice to those areas.

After a while, you get adept at moving between the rules and recognizing them for what they are.

Putting it back together into your system I think has to be done on your own, although, frankly I find Aikido allows for the greatest opportunity for this to occur as ironically I think it is the least restrictive...which I also think is part of the problem with Aikido as well since it is so damn complicated to deal with such a subtle practice!

Kevin Leavitt
11-30-2009, 09:11 AM
This is a good discussion.

I think that another common bond between Tomiki and Mochizuki is their belief in various types of randori and competition for the benefit of learning. In my experience there is a large gap between paired kata training with varied levels of resistance and even shite randori. And then yet another gap from shite to jiyu randori. In my (limited) opinion, training with increasing levels of resistance combined with increasing levels of uncertainty during randori, steadily bring it all together while maintaining fundamentals.

Thank the heavens and Judo's influence for randori.

I have no experience with the Aikido you mention above (Tomiki and Mochizuki), but I agree, and yes, thank the heavens for Judo's influence!

Flintstone
11-30-2009, 09:28 AM
I have no experience with the Aikido you mention above (Tomiki and Mochizuki), but I agree, and yes, thank the heavens for Judo's influence!
You would love it if you tried. You fund yourself "fighting" for shihonage-ing and following up with a ude hisigi juji gatame in a blink. That's what I meant ;).

Of course, if you have the time to take aikido, judo and BJJ that's great!! What I meant with the figuring it out thing, is that once you are experienced in those systems, going from kotegaeshi to kata or kesa gatame just come without thinking how to get there. Something you won't learn in judo or aikido alone.

Kevin Leavitt
11-30-2009, 11:01 AM
Oh, I see what you mean! Yea, I do things sometimes in AIkido that aikidoka are not used to seeing. LIke them doing ikkyo on me only to have me go down the roll around into a dela riva guard then around their back, standing back up to iriminage!

What it teaches you I think is that the fight is not over when you think it is over...and posture matters...always! If you stay "on" and keep pressing close with good posture, these things are not possible in aikido. However, if you get lazy and default to "ikkyo and down"...and break your intent/posture because you have some affects in your practice cause no one ever does this type of set up...then this is possible.

It reinforces the importance of keeping aware, alive, and focus throughout the "lifecycle" of the technique, which is much longer than you might think it is.

Stormcrow34
11-30-2009, 11:23 AM
For the record I have no experience training in Tomiki Aikido, I have only read about them and watched some videos of randori and competition.

The great thing about Yoseikan jiyu randori, is that it provides a venue to experiment and learn how all of these various ranges (from weapons to ne waza) fit together while under various levels of stress. You can start out with weapons and end up on the mat trying to submit your opponent in the same session. It's a ton of fun, too!

L. Camejo
11-30-2009, 02:12 PM
You would love it if you tried. You fund yourself "fighting" for shihonage-ing and following up with a ude hisigi juji gatame in a blink. That's what I meant ;).

Of course, if you have the time to take aikido, judo and BJJ that's great!!Good stuff.

This is why I also practice Akayama Ryu Jujutsu, a tradition-based school that draws much of its aiki waza from Shodokan Aikido. The result is that I have an environment that allows and encourages that instantaneous switch from Aiki waza to Ju waza to Ne Waza during Jujutsu randori. This may or may not include weapons and striking and is done at varying resistance levels.

The result is that Jujutsu students of mine learn how to transition in their tactics as ma ai decreases from long, to medium to short range and then to ground fighting and sacrifice techniques. Since this system pretty much allows for any waza to be used in any situation, students get to apply wrist locks and elbows in ne waza, turn aigamae ate (irimi nage) into osoto gari if timing is off or drop into a sacrifice tai otoshi and move into kesa gatame.

On the flip side my Aikido students are sometimes challenged in kata or randori practice by Jujutsu style takedowns during their execution of waza to test their ability to maintain kamae and stability or to exert power in ways that does not allow them to be compromised by some of the typical Jujutsu or Judo responses to the Aikido waza.

Fun stuff. :D

Best

LC

Stormcrow34
11-30-2009, 02:27 PM
Sounds a little familiar Mr. Camejo! I've always wanted to meet up and train with Barlow Sensei up in Alabama.

I don't have too much experience, so I may be missing something, but I have a hard time understanding the purpose of training exclusively in one particular range. It just leaves sooo many holes.

Kevin Leavitt
11-30-2009, 02:47 PM
it's not just the range...it is also the assumptions and conditions you impose in those ranges as well.

L. Camejo
11-30-2009, 03:45 PM
Both of you are correct imho.

Michael, not sure which part of Florida you're in but the Akayama Ryu Winter Camp is in Orange Beach, Al in mid-January 2010. I'm carded to do a seminar in Shodokan Aikido there as well.

See here - www.akayamaryu.com .

The thing about training in one range however is that if you master it then you can stand up to just about anything as long as you can maintain it. This goes back to Tomiki's method in that many people will just find it easier to grapple and go into newaza if range is closed to the point where Aikido waza is difficult. To me that makes sense on a practical level.

However I have also found that when I refused myself the option of going to the ground I improved my ma ai, posture, grounding, tsukuri, power generation, tegatana skills and found a bunch of subtle, non-physical things within the Aikido-specific paradigm that took my training to another level. The result was that I never had to worry about grappling at close range because the situation of getting into closed ma ai or being taken down was almost always prevented.

At this point in my Aikido development I found that things most often went my way as long as I was standing and facing my opponent. So I decided to remove the assumption of standing and awareness of the attacker and this is what guided me to Jujutsu to address the potentiality of being on my back and unaware of the attacker's approach. Once again I learnt some things that I just could not from the other paradigm.

This is why I am of the belief that to truly understand the method we have to create certain conditions that allow us to explore it deeply before going towards other options that though easier and more intuitive, will not assist us in developing mastery if that is our goal.

Just my thoughts.

Good thread.
LC

ChrisMoses
11-30-2009, 04:22 PM
Oh, I see what you mean! Yea, I do things sometimes in AIkido that aikidoka are not used to seeing. LIke them doing ikkyo on me only to have me go down the roll around into a dela riva guard then around their back, standing back up to iriminage!



If this was Facebook, I would have just clicked the "like" button here...

DonMagee
12-01-2009, 06:36 AM
it's not just the range...it is also the assumptions and conditions you impose in those ranges as well.

Exactly. Anyone ever try to use judo against a guy in a t-shirt who refuses to try to grip you and instead hops around and shoots singles and doubles?

It's damn annoying. Even moving from gi to no gi has unique challenges to it. I never realized how much I use the gi in my day to day game. I had to spend a lot of time relearning very basic concepts to get my game up to the same level. Even simple stuff like breaking posture has to be done differently. Most of my favorite chokes all use the gi. The advantage is just learning how to blend what you know on the fly for any ruleset.

Flintstone
12-01-2009, 08:06 AM
Larry, what you say certainly sound very familiar to me. Absolutely agree!

Stormcrow34
12-01-2009, 09:09 AM
PM your way Alex.

Thanks to everyone for contributing to this interesting thread.