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Arashi Kumomura
10-26-2009, 02:48 AM
We were going over tenchinage in class the other day and just a little while ago, coincidentally, I came upon this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmUJf8JI6fc&feature=channel

I noticed that they're doing the technique slightly differently than we were. While they're focusing on breaking the opponent's balance by displacing at the spine and further using pressure at the opponent's face into their "dead space." The way they perform the technique, the shite is forced close into the opponent.

We were putting much more focus on the rotation of shite's hands, which caused the uke to lose themself. I actually played with this method on several people and found it to work really well.

Are we just practicing different styles or is one form "more correct" than another? Any idea which is more effective? I'm curious as to what the Aikido community has to think. :)

Flintstone
10-26-2009, 04:34 AM
I'm more in the "rotation of the hands" stuff. Works wonders. Aikiage, not just "rotation".

phitruong
10-26-2009, 07:45 AM
try doing tenchinage without moving your feet. once you can do that, then add the feet movement. don't like nage body position, especially he left his rear foot dragged behind, i.e. if he need to move again from that position in a different direction, it will be difficult and time consuming. also, nage just set himself up for a good judo sacrifice throw with uke falls down, turn, kick right leg up and diagonal to take out nage's nuts at the same time.

Abasan
10-26-2009, 09:09 AM
In the Vid, nage looks like he has a broken posture and no chushin. Uke's feet is firmly planted and that helps but if he moves, this will end up in a tussle. Or I could be wrong...

I've seen some guys in Iwama do something similar to affect uke's spine. But they don't project their body and hands like the vid. Instead they still maintain posture as they irimi and their lead hand sort of loops behind uke's back locking the hand so that Uke can't release it. The other hand is placed according to how mean you want to be...

Both methods require a comparable strength to uke to perform the technique well. A physically weaker nage might have trouble with this. A 'better' way would be a tenchi nage that you can perform regardless of which hanmi you're in. IMO.

raul rodrigo
10-26-2009, 09:25 AM
try doing tenchinage without moving your feet. once you can do that, then add the feet movement. don't like nage body position, especially he left his rear foot dragged behind, i.e. if he need to move again from that position in a different direction, it will be difficult and time consuming. also, nage just set himself up for a good judo sacrifice throw with uke falls down, turn, kick right leg up and diagonal to take out nage's nuts at the same time.

I like the way you think, Phi. Yes, the opening for a judo sacrifice throw also occurred to me --- yoko wakare, or yoko tomoe nage. And yes, my first teacher always said, try to do tenchi nage without moving your feet. The hands move in a spiral and the hips drive the movement. 13 years later, I may finally be getting the hang of it.

grondahl
10-26-2009, 09:28 AM
That was not a very good tenchinage. Poor posture, leaving the upper hand behind the body, lots of shoulders and forcing the throw at the end.

Amir Krause
10-26-2009, 10:10 AM
We were going over tenchinage in class the other day and just a little while ago, coincidentally, I came upon this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmUJf8JI6fc&feature=channel

I noticed that they're doing the technique slightly differently than we were. While they're focusing on breaking the opponent's balance by displacing at the spine and further using pressure at the opponent's face into their "dead space." The way they perform the technique, the shite is forced close into the opponent.

We were putting much more focus on the rotation of shite's hands, which caused the uke to lose themself. I actually played with this method on several people and found it to work really well.

Are we just practicing different styles or is one form "more correct" than another? Any idea which is more effective? I'm curious as to what the Aikido community has to think. :)

While I did not understand what you mean for by "rotation of shite's hands".
I disliked the video, as he got Uke into Kuzushi, for starters, he got himself imbalanced just as well - while Tori is imbalanced, he can hardly create more force then another. I prefer not to go into the very long list of additional things I disliked.

A further comment, to my understanding and experience, Doing a good unmoving Tenchi-Nage is much more difficult then doing a moving one. The latter requires more sensitivity to make Uke respond and Kuzushi.

Amir

Adam Huss
10-26-2009, 02:11 PM
We would normally cross step through in that instance...plus if we couldn't break enough balance with the lower hand by downward motion without compromising a straight back we would just move out slightly more to break balance (usually a happy medium with very slight variance depending upon shi'te/uke size difference, ma'ai, etc.). I would call this more of an aikikai-style sumiotoshi (omote) variant of kihon waza than a tenchinage kihon, but I would accept it as a tenshinage variation as well (not that my opinion matters!). Typically for #1 variations (omote) we would cross step b/c movement is going toward uke (so as to keep nage/shi'te close to uke) and a #2 variation (ura/ushiro, type movement) the throw would come off a shuffle/slide step, because after the tenkan/tenkai shi'te will have his "power side" closest to uke due to tenkan(ing) with uke's forward momentum. but that's just basic guidelines for my practice...which is, for the most part, atypical.

odudog
10-26-2009, 04:54 PM
I agree with most of the posts as well. Poor posture. Even when he demonstrated about his right hand moving up towards uke's face, notice that nage's body still leaned over to the left. Poor posture. Nage also doesn't move his feet to help keep him in good posture. If the uke had been say, 6' 5", this technique would not have worked. Nage is using too much power with his left hand. If your going to do this technique using two hands, then both hands should be equally involved.

Russ Q
10-26-2009, 05:09 PM
Nage would never pull this off with someone bigger than him. No kuzushi at the beginning....doesn't seem like he has a connection either but....that's hard to say. When you look at their group (Submissions 101) I think it tells you a lot about the mindframe they are executing techniques with......probably won't work most of the time.....

IMHO,

Russ

ToyodaCenter
10-26-2009, 07:27 PM
Nice question Storm and some really good observations! I've learned something just by reading everybody's posts. Personally, I'm not so clear on the whole "do it while not moving your feet" concept. Of course, I teach static techniques and concepts for beginners to understand movements, balance breaking, leading, etc., but ultimately, based on my understanding, one MUST move his/her feet and body...tai sabaki. I dont think that particular demonstration was "wrong" by any means, but one could certainly see some opportunities for movement.

MM
10-27-2009, 06:57 AM
Nice question Storm and some really good observations! I've learned something just by reading everybody's posts. Personally, I'm not so clear on the whole "do it while not moving your feet" concept. Of course, I teach static techniques and concepts for beginners to understand movements, balance breaking, leading, etc., but ultimately, based on my understanding, one MUST move his/her feet and body...tai sabaki. I dont think that particular demonstration was "wrong" by any means, but one could certainly see some opportunities for movement.

In the videos of Ueshiba, sitting on the mat, with three people pushing on his head, did he have to move his feet to break their balance? Why couldn't they push him over? What was happening with Ueshiba not being moved?

Read Peter Goldsbury's TIE article where he talks about Ueshiba and ushiro techniques.

Why did high ranking Kendo people want to train with Ueshiba to learn his "tai sabaki"? They'd trained their whole life for Kendo movement. What was different about Ueshiba that they wanted to learn?

IMO, if you "MUST" move your feet to gain kuzushi, then that's jujutsu. Not aikido. Aiki captures center on contact and thus not a requirement for movement to gain kuzushi. Yes, movement is good and should be trained, but if you're relying 100% on movement to gain kuzushi, then that's jujutsu to me. (Again, nothing wrong with jujutsu. I'm not passing a good or bad judgment here.)

No aiki = no aikido. No aiki = not capturing center on contact = no kuzushi. Moving to get kuzushi because you can't capture center on contact any other way = jujutsu. All the physical "leading" movements that help get kuzushi, to capture uke's center, are all jujutsu, IMO.

And that is what's meant by the concept of "do it while not moving your feet". It's the concept of aiki.

phitruong
10-27-2009, 07:44 AM
The hands move in a spiral and the hips drive the movement.

personally, i think folks focus too much on the hands. don't pay much attention to my hands or uke's hands for that matter. only interested in uke's shoulders and spine. the up part, i would try to slap uke's head with his/her own shoulder. the down part, i would try to hit uke's with his/her own elbow. essentially, taking half of uke's body up and the other half down. that's just a simplified explanation. there is more to it within your own body, of course.

ChrisHein
10-27-2009, 06:22 PM
Technique seemed ok to me. Not how I do it, but not bad. If it will work or not is totally dependent on who you're facing, and what their motivations are.

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=467

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=675

eyrie
10-27-2009, 07:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmUJf8JI6fc&feature=channel What this fellow is demonstrating is plain ol jujitsu - taking uke's arm to their rear balance point and affecting the spine. It's not aiki, BTW.

eyrie
10-27-2009, 11:22 PM
It has been pointed out to me that my post may have appeared to sound dismissive of the video demonstration. It was not my intention and I apologize if it came across that way.

My comments with regards to the video echo Mark's post here:
IMO, if you "MUST" move your feet to gain kuzushi, then that's jujutsu. Not aikido. Aiki captures center on contact and thus not a requirement for movement to gain kuzushi. Yes, movement is good and should be trained, but if you're relying 100% on movement to gain kuzushi, then that's jujutsu to me. (Again, nothing wrong with jujutsu. I'm not passing a good or bad judgment here.)

To further clarify, simply moving your captured wrist to uke's rear balance point and the other captured wrist to his face, to merely affect the spine is basic jujitsu. Nothing wrong with that. Merely rotating the wrists thru uke's connections to get to his spine is also basic jujitsu. Again, nothing wrong with that.

OTOH, splitting and projecting uke's forces up and down (tenchi) SO that his postural integrity is affected... is quite a different kettle of fish... and therein lies the subtle difference.

George S. Ledyard
10-28-2009, 01:51 AM
Nage would never pull this off with someone bigger than him. No kuzushi at the beginning....doesn't seem like he has a connection either but....that's hard to say. When you look at their group (Submissions 101) I think it tells you a lot about the mindframe they are executing techniques with......probably won't work most of the time.....

IMHO,

Russ
Not on me... This is the problem with attackers who attack with no structure. All the energy is outwards. There is no meeting and joining with the power. If the uke had attacked and grabbed the nage's center rather than just his wrists, that technique would not have worked.

There's also a great sutemi waza off the nage since his positioning is so compromised.

George S. Ledyard
10-28-2009, 02:03 AM
In the videos of Ueshiba, sitting on the mat, with three people pushing on his head, did he have to move his feet to break their balance? Why couldn't they push him over? What was happening with Ueshiba not being moved?

Read Peter Goldsbury's TIE article where he talks about Ueshiba and ushiro techniques.

Why did high ranking Kendo people want to train with Ueshiba to learn his "tai sabaki"? They'd trained their whole life for Kendo movement. What was different about Ueshiba that they wanted to learn?

IMO, if you "MUST" move your feet to gain kuzushi, then that's jujutsu. Not aikido. Aiki captures center on contact and thus not a requirement for movement to gain kuzushi. Yes, movement is good and should be trained, but if you're relying 100% on movement to gain kuzushi, then that's jujutsu to me. (Again, nothing wrong with jujutsu. I'm not passing a good or bad judgment here.)

No aiki = no aikido. No aiki = not capturing center on contact = no kuzushi. Moving to get kuzushi because you can't capture center on contact any other way = jujutsu. All the physical "leading" movements that help get kuzushi, to capture uke's center, are all jujutsu, IMO.

And that is what's meant by the concept of "do it while not moving your feet". It's the concept of aiki.

Mark,
It doesn't matter whether they move the feet or not. If you try this kind of technique without some understanding of aiki, the uke can and should stop you dead. Moving your feet will not produce kuzushi because uke will also move his and adjust.

You are absolutely right that it needs to be over on contact. There has to be an element in which nage receives the energy of the attack. If that doesn't happen you have a conflict and uke is letting you push him over. If that were happening, I'd look for at least a little falling forward towards nage on the part of uke just as he touched. This wouldn't be "because" of the foot movement, it would be at the same time as the foot movement. That's my take on it.

MM
10-28-2009, 06:51 AM
Mark,
It doesn't matter whether they move the feet or not. If you try this kind of technique without some understanding of aiki, the uke can and should stop you dead. Moving your feet will not produce kuzushi because uke will also move his and adjust.

You are absolutely right that it needs to be over on contact. There has to be an element in which nage receives the energy of the attack. If that doesn't happen you have a conflict and uke is letting you push him over. If that were happening, I'd look for at least a little falling forward towards nage on the part of uke just as he touched. This wouldn't be "because" of the foot movement, it would be at the same time as the foot movement. That's my take on it.

Hi George,

Not disagreeing with anything here. :) Just that, for me, the part of capturing center on contact is tough. Movement of hands and feet help to establish the capturing center principle. But, as I've come to find out, moving hands and feet to do that will undermine your building of that skill (capturing center on contact). At least in the beginning stages of training.

It's why we're working on static grabs to train and get that capture center on contact *before* we move. If we're moving without capturing center, we're just glossing over what should be done. And it isn't an easy thing to do. I certainly am no expert on it.

Throw in a technique like tenchinage, where you have two forces going in different directions. This is a much easier technique to accomplish if one could add movement to "help" capture center and gain kuzushi. But, that's detrimental to learning that skill. But learning that skill isn't easy. :) Yeah, it's like a catch-22. You want to move to make tenchi nage work, because you're having trouble getting kuzushi on contact. (Okay, for me anyway.)

Which, I think brings us to the video. If you aren't specifically taught some Internal Methods to rewire your body, then you won't understand how to start training that skill. You start moving to make the technique work. Or you move because that's what you've seen your teacher do -- except that with Internal Skills, you can't see what's going on inside. You only get the outer physical movement.

If all you've ever trained was the movements, how do you start training that Internal Skill of capturing center on contact while still maintaining regular training? Ties in with your other post about changes.

Amir Krause
10-28-2009, 10:58 AM
Technique seemed ok to me. Not how I do it, but not bad. If it will work or not is totally dependent on who you're facing, and what their motivations are.

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=467

http://www.aikidostudent.com/content/?p=675

Chris - that was a much better example then the other video.

Amir

sorokod
10-28-2009, 06:24 PM
Ooooh... videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a--a1fxyHV8#t=5m39s

George S. Ledyard
10-28-2009, 08:04 PM
Hi George,

Not disagreeing with anything here. :) Just that, for me, the part of capturing center on contact is tough. Movement of hands and feet help to establish the capturing center principle. But, as I've come to find out, moving hands and feet to do that will undermine your building of that skill (capturing center on contact). At least in the beginning stages of training.

It's why we're working on static grabs to train and get that capture center on contact *before* we move. If we're moving without capturing center, we're just glossing over what should be done. And it isn't an easy thing to do. I certainly am no expert on it.

Throw in a technique like tenchinage, where you have two forces going in different directions. This is a much easier technique to accomplish if one could add movement to "help" capture center and gain kuzushi. But, that's detrimental to learning that skill. But learning that skill isn't easy. :) Yeah, it's like a catch-22. You want to move to make tenchi nage work, because you're having trouble getting kuzushi on contact. (Okay, for me anyway.)

Which, I think brings us to the video. If you aren't specifically taught some Internal Methods to rewire your body, then you won't understand how to start training that skill. You start moving to make the technique work. Or you move because that's what you've seen your teacher do -- except that with Internal Skills, you can't see what's going on inside. You only get the outer physical movement.

If all you've ever trained was the movements, how do you start training that Internal Skill of capturing center on contact while still maintaining regular training? Ties in with your other post about changes.

Without, in any suggesting that what we do has anything to do with the various skills being discussed as IP, IS, or whatever...

I have a way to explain what I am doing and can get relatively new students to do it. Meaning that they can do the tenchinage without moving their feet or moving themselves off the line, but rather by splitting uke's power vertically and drawing them in. Uke falls at your feet. The arms are relaxed, there is a bit of weight shift from static that isn't necessary when the attack is dynamic.

Once the student knows how to do the technique in this manner, it is then far more efficacious to move forward on the entry than before. In fact, once one can do it without the movement, one can choose to move in, out, turn, whatever...

- George

rob_liberti
11-11-2009, 08:34 PM
Ooooh... videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a--a1fxyHV8#t=5m39s

Does he lose his balance at 6:51 and 6:52? To me it looks like his right leg has a placing reflex.

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
11-11-2009, 09:01 PM
Heck I try to resist on commenting on other folks videos, it is too easy to arm chair quarterback them for sure. Reading through the comments though based on IS/IT skills and what constitutes IT and what is Jiu Jitsu I'd make this base comment.

It ain't even good Jiu Jitsu or Judo for that matter! There is a reason you don't practice this type of move that way in BJJ or Judo...people simply won't let you do it that way.

The way that guy leans in to split uke, I feel the uge to row backwards, yank him forward off his base and have my way with him...way too committed and no kuzushi what-so-ever....or kuzushi at the wrong time..if you ask me.

No, good kuzushi requires you to have uke press forward into you and you have to shift him up and load him by coming underneath him. If you move your feet or not is really immaterial at that point I think as the loading has to occur BEFORE you irimi or he simply is gonna by out of there. He will feel the proprioception of what you are doing and adjust.

So, I agree with George's assessment above. I can't tell you much about the difference between good IT skills and Jiu Jitsu...but I will tell you that it ain't in the irimi at that point in a non-compliant situation where uke is walking a fine line in Kaeshi-waza.

That said, I think there is a good version where you CAN irimi prior to actually making contact to nage, however, kuzushi is established with INTENT through atemi and uke adjust to avoid it so by the time he grabs he is grabbing to stablize a situation gone wrong for himself.

I am sure the video was slowed down in attempt to communicate some fundamentals, but I personally believe they left out some very important things concerning Ma ai and loading which are really the fundamentals of what I consider "good Jiu Jitsu"

Rob Watson
11-11-2009, 09:32 PM
Heck I try to resist on commenting on other folks videos, it is too easy to arm chair quarterback them for sure. Reading through the comments though based on IS/IT skills and what constitutes IT and what is Jiu Jitsu I'd make this base comment.

It ain't even good Jiu Jitsu or Judo for that matter! There is a reason you don't practice this type of move that way in BJJ or Judo...people simply won't let you do it that way.

The way that guy leans in to split uke, I feel the uge to row backwards, yank him forward off his base and have my way with him...way too committed and no kuzushi what-so-ever....or kuzushi at the wrong time..if you ask me.

No, good kuzushi requires you to have uke press forward into you and you have to shift him up and load him by coming underneath him. If you move your feet or not is really immaterial at that point I think as the loading has to occur BEFORE you irimi or he simply is gonna by out of there. He will feel the proprioception of what you are doing and adjust.

So, I agree with George's assessment above. I can't tell you much about the difference between good IT skills and Jiu Jitsu...but I will tell you that it ain't in the irimi at that point in a non-compliant situation where uke is walking a fine line in Kaeshi-waza.

That said, I think there is a good version where you CAN irimi prior to actually making contact to nage, however, kuzushi is established with INTENT through atemi and uke adjust to avoid it so by the time he grabs he is grabbing to stablize a situation gone wrong for himself.

I am sure the video was slowed down in attempt to communicate some fundamentals, but I personally believe they left out some very important things concerning Ma ai and loading which are really the fundamentals of what I consider "good Jiu Jitsu"

If M. Saito fails to impress is there any hope for anyone?

Abasan
11-11-2009, 10:18 PM
Yes it appears as if he had to place the leg there. But that's what happens really when some 6 footer gets thrown whilst still holding on to your hand. Having said that, moving his feet isn't as important as his ability to maintain his centerline and the bit after that showed that he can maintain his feet placement the 2nd time around.

Everyone's human. They eat drink and defecate like you and me.

Kevin - I think Saito Sensei was showing kihon tenchi nage there. No doubt, he would be able to stay in one position and draw uke to him if he wanted to.