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Buck
10-24-2009, 12:00 AM
Since the re-do of the BMI scale some years back millions more of American's went from fat to obese. That is to say a beer bellied, 230 lbs 5'9" middle aged male ( I am keeping the lady's out of this. :)) went from love handles and a beer gut to obese. Now airlines are really putting their foot down on fat people, making them buy another seat.

Ever since American stopped smoking we got fat. Since then there has been a push by doctors and insurance companies to target fat people and make them thin for some years know. Pushing for this idea weight we all should be, and it is measured be latest BMI. This has lead to a more public discrimination against fat people.

If discrimination is defined as being against, the color of a person skin, sex, sexuality, and everything else, except fat and white men, why is obese/fat being excluded from discrimination?

We all know Aikido isn't an active that burns fat and calories like other activities. Often this leads to getting fat, and lots of Aikidoka are obese according to the current BMI scale. I have seen a lot of BMI's in the obese range on the mat, especially senseis. Yes, lots of pot bellies and love handles. And a few obese in the old sense of the world. People who are hundreds of pounds over weight. Society founds upon fat people, constantly wanting to turn them thin. Thin has and was the ideal in society. And fat people get stereotyped and all that, and more. They can't even get on the airbus.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

For example, do you charge a fat person more because their weight breaks the mat down faster then thin one. Or because it takes a longer time and more effort to teach them say, ukemi; their body mass inhibits motion making it harder from them to learn. Do you give them a pass because of it. Are you concerned you have a fat dojo; equating to a poor out of shape dojo, lazy dojo, that would rather eat then train. The rational is if they are fat, they mustn't be training, they must sit around and talk about it, then actually train and burn those calories.

Your thoughts.

Abasan
10-24-2009, 01:27 AM
Sumo's train as hard as any olympic wrestlers, and on the BMI they are over obese usually. Is it harder to teach them? I don't think so. Are they lazy. I don't think so.

But are they normal or healthy? That I suppose would be the question to ask yourself. As a human being, we should always strive for balance. Aikido teaches us harmony. Its one thing to say this in the dojo while throwing people around, but its another when we are shoving carbs, fat and sugar in that we really don't need.

Simply said to survive an adult would need approximately 2000 calories give or take a couple of hundred either way. There is really no excuse for us to go at it say 4-6000 calories intake a day is it?

That's the fact. And yes we need to do exercise and yes genetics has something to say about your body weight. But at the base for all of us that fit the bell curve, its about how much we take in a day.

I support overly fat people buying 2 seats for the air ticket or bus or rail. They are afterall taking the space of 2 normal adults. Have you ever gotten squeezed out of your seat by the other passenger who is overflowing all over the place? God forbid if he has to seat in the middle, the guy at the window seat has no chance!

Discrimination what? What about midgets? You don't see the airlines giving them half rates although they take less space and cost less to transport. That's discrimination because there's nothing you can do to not be a midget. <- is that insensitive? I can't tell how Americans view insensitivity this days what with watching all those episodes of House MD and that law series starring captain kirk..thingey.

Anyway I don't really know what this has to do with Aikido... sure there are lots of fat senseis and shihans out there. A lot of Japanese shihans guzzle beer like it was oxygen or something. Yet Osensei rarely imbibes... and he was far from fat. Gozo Shioda was slim, Yamaguichi was slim... We're not talking about model slim here to the point of anorexic but normal slim you know, with a bit of flab here and there. If there's anyone I want to model myself on it would be those guys and not sorry to say, Steven seagal and uh... the other shihans who may be reading this (and hopefully forget my name altogether).

jss
10-24-2009, 03:04 AM
Ever since American stopped smoking we got fat.
Smoking reduces appetite and feeling hungry. Some girls take up smoking to lose weight.

Pushing for this idea weight we all should be, and it is measured be latest BMI. This has lead to a more public discrimination against fat people.
Don't forget the above average muscular people. As BMI is your weight-height ration, BMI cannot discern fat from muscle.

If discrimination is defined as being against, the color of a person skin, sex, sexuality, and everything else, except fat and white men, why is obese/fat being excluded from discrimination?
Because being fat is seen as being (in most cases) a matter of choice. On the other hand how much of a choice is it when you're working two jobs, still earn barely enough money to live from, the nearest supermarket with fresh food is quite far away, you've never learned how to cook cheap healthy meals and you have all these cheap fast food places just around the corner?

Society founds upon fat people, constantly wanting to turn them thin. Thin has and was the ideal in society.
Thin is not the ideal. Perhaps it was for some time, but there's more and more protest against the too skinny models. The ideal (for normal people, fashion models are lagging behind) is becoming more and more 'healthy'.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?
Do you think overweight is healthy?
And I don't think Aikido can afford it as long as Aikido is claiming to be a type of physical exercise. And personally, I do expect some stamina from my training partners. I don't like to stop training because my partner needs to catch his/her breath because he/she is out of shape.

Carsten Möllering
10-24-2009, 06:33 AM
We all know Aikido isn't an active
that burns fat and calories like other activities. Who is "we"?
The way we practice, you burn a lot of calories und you can easily looe weight by doing Aikido.
How do you train?

Often this leads to getting fat, and lots of Aikidoka are obese according to the current BMI scale. I have seen a lot of BMI's in the obese range on the mat, especially senseis.
Well you don't see a lot fat people doin Aikido here.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

Your thoughts.First time I hear obesity and Aikido connected this way because fat people in Aikido (as i know it) are a very small exception.

Carsten

Shadowfax
10-24-2009, 07:20 AM
Ok I'm a big chick. But I have to tell ya my friend most thin people could not keep up with even half of the stuff I do. I have a very active high energy as in in motion on my feet all the time as well as working with horses both riding them and being under them working on their hooves.

There are a lot of factors that play into a person size that don not necessarily mean lazy and over eater. I do think some people are genetically programed to be bigger than others.

Now I'm not making excuses for over weight people. I've been often heard to call my self fat. But I also carry a lot more muscle than the average 5'7" woman does.

but I have to tell ya I seriously do not think it took me longer to learn to roll than your average skinny guy. I rather get the impression I learned it a bit quicker than many. LOL after all I'm round... round things roll quite well thank you very much. :D And we have less corners and more padding. Rolling and falling does not hurt us nearly so much.

As for thin being the ideal... it has not always been so. Look back at paintings and pictures of people in early centuries. The image of beauty has changed some. Women used to have curves and were a bit heavier than today. Marlyn Monro was a size 18.

Since starting Aikido in addition to my other activities Ive lost a bit of weight which I am more than pleased about. I believe it is helping me to get into better condition over all. Aikido burns a huge amount of energy.

Will I ever be thin? No. I am not designed that way. I have learned to appreciate having a strong, solid build. Just come grab my wrist some time and try to move me.

Do my partners often have to wait around for me to catch my breath? LOL not usually. But then I'm not your average fat girl.

Stop looking at the size of peoples bodies and pay attention to how much drive and heart they have. After all Aikido is about love and acceptance right?

Demetrio Cereijo
10-24-2009, 08:23 AM
First time I hear obesity and Aikido connected this way because fat people in Aikido (as i know it) are a very small exception.

I've heard it lots of times, but related to USA.

My BMI is 23.8. What about yours, guys & gals?

AsimHanif
10-24-2009, 08:34 AM
This is something I often discuss since I not only run a dojo but I’m involved in fitness as a whole. I don’t necessarily agree with your premise but I do think there are a lot of martial artists today who are out of shape. There are a lot of reasons for this obviously. The least of which I would say is from quitting smoking.
Normally we don’t do enough conditioning in an aikido class. There is just not enough time. I often stress the need for doing separate conditioning training outside of aikido. I get very irritated when I see a person younger than me gassing out during training. A catch 22 for aikido (and other arts) is that the more efficient you become, the less movement you rely on, hence less activity = less calories being burned. So we have to do more outside of class.
I often hear about such and such a sensei being big (overweight) and still being effective. That may be true on the mat to some extent but I also view this as a quality of life issue. How much more functional could a person be if they were in shape and to me that doesn’t mean just ‘not obese’. There are many people who look fit (no fat) but are not physically fit.
As far as BMI is concerned I say ‘throw that out’. Its not the best indicator of fitness levels. I prefer for people to look objectively at themselves. How do your cloths fit? Do you get out of breath quickly? Can you hear yourself breathe while standing still? Do you have a hard time getting up after a few rolls?
As far as examples in aikido I think we can look at the Shihan who are or have lived well into their 80’s. Look at their body type. Most from my recollection seem to be on the slimmer side. More importantly examine how functional they‘ve been in later years (on and off the mat). How many Shihan today in their 60’s don’t even take ukemi? I’ve observed a lot of 6 dan’s who are really broken up today from training harsh (not hard) which to me relates to improper conditioning, health and wellness.
Don’t’ mean to go on and on but this is a BIG issue for me.

Asim

Buck
10-24-2009, 09:44 AM
Ok I'm a big chick.
As for thin being the ideal... it has not always been so. Women used to have curves and were a bit heavier than today. Marlyn Monro was a size 18.

Will I ever be thin? No. I am not designed that way.

Stop looking at the size of peoples bodies and pay attention to how much drive and heart they have. After all Aikido is about love and acceptance right?

As we both know the US is bent on being thin. Even when Marilyn was around so was twiggy. But if you look at the Lucille Ball Show, only the kids where thin. Before that May West, and Babe Ruth.

There is this effort today in the US by changing the BMI scale to make more people obese who had curves and love-handles, thus targeting their size as a health issue. This causes a more discriminatory society against people who are not the "ideal" weight, of -1 body fat :rolleyes:

The discrimination is growing against fat people. Like I said Airlines are charging double ticket price for a fat person who say weights 270lbs of average height, but the price of a ticket isn't doubled a tall person who is of the same weight or more due to the height. Some restaurants are doing the same. I am not even looking at the stuff that has been around so long that is anti-weight we have gotten so use to it we don't notice anymore. Like the movie industry, the beauty industry, and the fashion industry. Take the resent photoshoping of a picture of a model who was considered too heavy. The doctoring of her photo made an already thin woman look unrealistically and unhealthily thin.

I don't know if Aikido is about the type of "love" about, or "acceptance" Cherie is talking, but what I do know is that the there is a greater effort here America to look down upon people that are not the ideal body weight, and this will and is being translated into the dojo.

With more of an effort of society pushing for "ideal" weight for everyone via now the medical community targeting the weight of kids giving insurance companies reasons not to insure people including a breast-feed baby that was over the set "ideal" weight for infants- as the percentile standard for ideal is set on non-breast feed babies who are much thinner (less healthier) than breast feed babies (more healthy). The medical community is targeting K-12 school kids teaching them that fat is bad. Fat kids for decades have been teased about being fat, but that wasn't always the case. For example, the old show "Our Gang/The Little Rascals " where they had a fat kid who wasn't mocked. But now with the stronger newer effort against...well...fatter people then the ideal, these people will be less accepted into society than before. This will again translate into the dojo with the next generations. As well as insurance companies discriminating against fat Aikidoka.

Now as time goes on we may see it harder for people to get a space for a dojo based on insurance companies discriminatory practices against fatter people. It is a liability to have a fatter person in the dojo for risk of heat attack and other non-sense presented by the insurance company, so the cost of covering a dojo could be more expensive that usual based on having a fatter Aikidoka- one who doesn't meet that ideal BMI for their height.

As there are real health concerns for really over-weight people and the obese in terms of Aikido and health issues. But I think the new anti-fat concern represented by a sliding BMI scale and society's madness for the perfect weight that will become an unspoken discrimination against those who don't measure up to the ideal BMI inside and outside of the dojo.

Cherie, I hear ya. You as a "big chick" are facing even more pressure to be less that you are. You sound like your "weight" isn't an issue in the dojo, but do you think in the future with the stronger effort to make everyone the perfect weight will effect the way new Aikidoka will look at you? Will there be a hidden discriminating feelings toward fatter people despite the common idea Aikido is about acceptance?

Linda Eskin
10-24-2009, 09:51 AM
My BMI is 23.8. What about yours, guys & gals?

24.8, down from 29.8 since I started Aikido in May. (5' 8", 163 pounds, down from 196 pounds) Looking to drop a bit more, too.

I don't like BMI, though. It doesn't take into account general frame size, and with size 11 feet I'm saying I'm built pretty sturdy by nature. Most womens watch bands won't even fit on my wrists, and there is no fat on my wrists. I'm never going to be "willowy" like some slimmer-built women. It also doesn't take into account muscle. I'm sure I am carrying more muscle now than I was when I was heavier.

Either way, Aikido has been directly helpful in losing weight (from doing classes), but even more so by pointing out emphatically how out of shape I was. I was (and am) highly motivated to get in much better shape so I can do better at Aikido. I've been a lot more active (walking, doing strengthening exercises, etc.) along with Aikido classes.

Buck
10-24-2009, 10:18 AM
This is something I often discuss since I not only run a dojo but I'm involved in fitness as a whole. I don't necessarily agree with your premise but I do think there are a lot of martial artists today who are out of shape.
Asim

Good point. It is something I am addressing too, is attitude toward fatter people. Not wanting to create an argument, but rather to express there is validation for the idea that fat people are often not though of as being fit. If you have love handles and lacking six-pack abs many people think you are not fit. This means Aikidoka (what I am getting at) being fatter translates to them not putting enough effort into their training to lose weight. How true or false is that among us?

Aikibu
10-24-2009, 11:16 AM
Hey I may be a bit fat right now but what can I say I am an Ectomesomorph to begin with...

At least I don't have a pony tail and dance on the mat...LOL

On a serious note I think the whole issue is another slander meme foisted upon Aikido by folks who need a reason to dislike it.

That being said being a good shape is essential for practicing any Martial Art if you actually want to enjoy what you're doing.

I know of several Yudansha who have had to get hip replacements ( One very popular Woman had it done and her progress was posted here) and live with some degree of disability...

Believe it or not Aikido is IMHO... An "impact sport"

Now being in good shape may delay the onset on some Aikido related injuries but if you are practicing all aspects of Aikido during class with a certain degree of vigor... You're going get a workout and deal with allot of impact trauma to the body...The effect is CUMULATIVE folks. :)

Personally I let everyone train to the level they're physically comfortable with and just try to help them overcome their own mental and physical limitations with allot of encouragement. That is the essence of any practice right?

I don't know how many times I have visited another Dojo and the Instructor decided that tonight is going to be "BREAKFALL NIGHT" Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

I guess some folks just can't get enough of seeing some big guy fly through the air and hit the mat with the sound of thunder. :D

William Hazen

Shadowfax
10-24-2009, 12:48 PM
Cherie, I hear ya. You as a "big chick" are facing even more pressure to be less that you are. You sound like your "weight" isn't an issue in the dojo, but do you think in the future with the stronger effort to make everyone the perfect weight will effect the way new Aikidoka will look at you? Will there be a hidden discriminating feelings toward fatter people despite the common idea Aikido is about acceptance?

LOL my weight isn't an issue anywhere. ;) I don't allow it to be.
I seriously doubt that the attempt to make every one the "perfect" weight will succeed. And to be honest people will always have their little prejudices and biases. You know what? That's ok by me. Its kind of hard to make people believe what you want them to you have to show them by actions that they are wrong. Maybe even then they will never accept it or change their viewpoint. Who really cares? In fact for all I know maybe people took one look at me at the start and thought this person will never make it or this person can't possibly be serious... I'm pretty sure I proved to them I can and I am.

Numbers are meaningless. Show me what you can do. All we each can do is live the best life we can live for ourselves. What someone else thinks is irrelevant.

At least a fat aikidokka can still do aikido... how many fat old karateka are out there still as effective as they were when they were younger and thinner? No matter the discipline or the chosen activity we are at least trying to be active.

Buck
10-24-2009, 01:32 PM
LOL my weight isn't an issue anywhere. ;) I don't allow it to be.
I seriously doubt that the attempt to make every one the "perfect" weight will succeed. And to be honest people will always have their little prejudices and biases. You know what? That's ok by me. Its kind of hard to make people believe what you want them to you have to show them by actions that they are wrong. Maybe even then they will never accept it or change their viewpoint. Who really cares? In fact for all I know maybe people took one look at me at the start and thought this person will never make it or this person can't possibly be serious... I'm pretty sure I proved to them I can and I am.

Numbers are meaningless. Show me what you can do. All we each can do is live the best life we can live for ourselves. What someone else thinks is irrelevant.

At least a fat aikidokka can still do aikido... how many fat old karateka are out there still as effective as they were when they were younger and thinner? No matter the discipline or the chosen activity we are at least trying to be active.

Kudo! It is great to hear strong positive people confident in who they are, and what they believe in even if it's against the "popular vote." Going against what other's think is best for you isn't easy. Stay strong and positive, I applaud you. :)

George S. Ledyard
10-24-2009, 02:26 PM
Since the re-do of the BMI scale some years back millions more of American's went from fat to obese. That is to say a beer bellied, 230 lbs 5'9" middle aged male ( I am keeping the lady's out of this. :)) went from love handles and a beer gut to obese. Now airlines are really putting their foot down on fat people, making them buy another seat.

Ever since American stopped smoking we got fat. Since then there has been a push by doctors and insurance companies to target fat people and make them thin for some years know. Pushing for this idea weight we all should be, and it is measured be latest BMI. This has lead to a more public discrimination against fat people.

If discrimination is defined as being against, the color of a person skin, sex, sexuality, and everything else, except fat and white men, why is obese/fat being excluded from discrimination?

We all know Aikido isn't an active that burns fat and calories like other activities. Often this leads to getting fat, and lots of Aikidoka are obese according to the current BMI scale. I have seen a lot of BMI's in the obese range on the mat, especially senseis. Yes, lots of pot bellies and love handles. And a few obese in the old sense of the world. People who are hundreds of pounds over weight. Society founds upon fat people, constantly wanting to turn them thin. Thin has and was the ideal in society. And fat people get stereotyped and all that, and more. They can't even get on the airbus.

Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

For example, do you charge a fat person more because their weight breaks the mat down faster then thin one. Or because it takes a longer time and more effort to teach them say, ukemi; their body mass inhibits motion making it harder from them to learn. Do you give them a pass because of it. Are you concerned you have a fat dojo; equating to a poor out of shape dojo, lazy dojo, that would rather eat then train. The rational is if they are fat, they mustn't be training, they must sit around and talk about it, then actually train and burn those calories.

Your thoughts.
What's the point here? I think I'll call up Chuck and Francis and whoop some skinny boy butt.

lbb
10-24-2009, 03:25 PM
Buck, your ability to make assertions that just ain't so never ceases to amaze me.

Buck
10-24-2009, 03:39 PM
Mary explain...pls.

Mary a friendly warning, I have gotten warnings for less in terms of your rudeness (directed at me) and not directing your comments to the topic. I fully agree and support this rule. Pls make your response accordingly. Thxs. :)



George, I am guessing your question to me was rhetoric. :)

lbb
10-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Buck, your "friendly" warning is taken in the spirit in which it was issued. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that you should make whatever statements you want (and particularly if you don't proofread what you write), and then cry "rudeness" if someone says that you're saying things that just aren't so. I'd like to see a citation of an airline policy to charge more for people who weigh 270 pounds. I'd like to see the logical connection between a societal bias against heavy people and the existence of legally protected categories. And, as much as I trust insurance companies considerably less far than I can throw them, I'd like to see some better reasoning than a shaky paper-chain of "if THIS unlikely thing were true, then THAT improbable event might happen, which could pave the way to THOSE other unlikely events". I think there's a good discussion to be had on the subject of whether aikidoka are in good enough shape, on average, for what we're doing (or want to do). I think there's a completely different good discussion about societal biases against heavy people, although that discussion should take place somewhere other than this forum since it has nothing to do with aikido. I think there's another good conversation to have about the license that insurance companies have in creating arbitrary criteria to exclude people from coverage, although that's a discussion that needs to be based on facts and not on statements like "and then they COULD say this and they COULD do that and they COULD deny you coverage", and it's also not a discussion for aikiweb. So, maybe you could identify which of these conversations (or some other conversation altogether) you'd like to have. Jumble them all together, and they work at cross-purposes IMO.

Flintstone
10-24-2009, 06:49 PM
I've heard it lots of times, but related to USA.

My BMI is 23.8. What about yours, guys & gals?
33.3 here. And I'm not fat, just... strong ;)

Chuck Clark
10-24-2009, 08:48 PM
What's the point here? I think I'll call up Chuck and Francis and whoop some skinny boy butt.

Too much trouble, George... besides, I don't like the way their bones sound when they... oh, never mind... :yuck:

Besides, I've misplaced a bit over forty pounds in the past three months and will continue to pay little attention to where I've left them for another sixty. They won't do the hip replacement until I've lost the weight... rest easy folks, it's your tax dollars at work, and thank you very much. :)

Best regards,

Buck
10-24-2009, 10:22 PM
This whole thread came about last month when I had a discussion with another martial artist who said fat/obese people take Aikido. We started off talking about much of what I already posted. I was insulted by his comment. I am not fat or obese. I am not out of shape or in great shape. It just another jab at Aikido, its all other arts only have dangerously thin people. Then it got me thinking, and I start to look around at what I didn't see before in the dojo. The discrimination towards fatter people. How, we as people do discriminate against fatter people. The attitude of people who aren't considered fat is brought into the dojo. Where the ideal is thin. That fatter people aren't in shape. How possibly some could discriminate against a student student like that of the airlines and insurance companies. Or have to reject a fatter student because of insurance, like it was pointed out with having a hip replacement.

I was hoping by making issue real and valid and getting people to talk about it, for all us Aikidoka to discuss, we could be active against such discrimination of fatter people, if we are aware of it. Fat should not be a bad word. We all are fat unless we have 0 body fat. I think Aikidoka's would be extra supportive and positive in the face of this type of ridiculous discrimination that is growing stronger.

Lorien Lowe
10-25-2009, 01:40 AM
The 'epidemic' in obesity isn't just from a redefinition of the BMI. There's something going on in the U.S. that is drastically affecting the average weight; no one seems to know what it is*. For example, just look at newsreel footage of crowds from a couple of decades ago. It's amazing how thin people seem.

It's not just a matter of will power, either; statistically, diets don't work in the long run. The only thing that has been proven to get the weight off of very overweight people, and keep it off, is bariatric surgery. Not that there aren't exceptions (though even the exceptions tend to relapse after a couple of years), but statistically it takes surgery to keep weight off of someone with a tendency towards overweight.

That said, 'fat' does not necessarily equal 'out of shape.' A person's resting heart rate and B/P are much better indicators of their fitness level (and likelihood of dropping dead during training) than their appearance is.

*there are, of course, lots of theories: too much high fructose corn syrup, too much TV, fast food, etc.

mathewjgano
10-25-2009, 03:04 AM
The 'epidemic' in obesity isn't just from a redefinition of the BMI. There's something going on in the U.S. that is drastically affecting the average weight; no one seems to know what it is*. For example, just look at newsreel footage of crowds from a couple of decades ago. It's amazing how thin people seem.

It's not just a matter of will power, either; statistically, diets don't work in the long run. The only thing that has been proven to get the weight off of very overweight people, and keep it off, is bariatric surgery. Not that there aren't exceptions (though even the exceptions tend to relapse after a couple of years), but statistically it takes surgery to keep weight off of someone with a tendency towards overweight.

That said, 'fat' does not necessarily equal 'out of shape.' A person's resting heart rate and B/P are much better indicators of their fitness level (and likelihood of dropping dead during training) than their appearance is.

*there are, of course, lots of theories: too much high fructose corn syrup, too much TV, fast food, etc.

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that it has to do largely with lifestyle and diet is a major factor to that. Do you mean perhaps that "diets" tend to be momentary adjustments in eating habit? ...I had a nutrition prof. who ranted about diets because many people seem to think they can just change their diet for a while when they should be looking at their diet as a life-time endeavor. Everyone I've spoken to, from doctors to nutrition specialists, say the same thing: eat well and be active and your average person will not be obese.
So, all that said, could you point me to a good reference describing what you're talking about?

lbb
10-25-2009, 10:02 AM
This whole thread came about last month when I had a discussion with another martial artist who said fat/obese people take Aikido. We started off talking about much of what I already posted. I was insulted by his comment. I am not fat or obese. I am not out of shape or in great shape.

Well, that's certainly not very nice, but you do have the power to not let it affect you. Like the old story of the monk carrying the woman across the stream -- you can choose to set these things down, or you can choose to keep carrying them with you. Unless this other martial artist is following you around and bending your ear on the subject, it is your choice if you don't put it down and walk away from it.

It just another jab at Aikido, its all other arts only have dangerously thin people.

That sentence makes no sense to me. Are you suffering from the delusion that all other martial arts only have "dangerously thin people" practicing them, or do you think (erroneously, I believe) that others suffer from this delusion?

Then it got me thinking, and I start to look around at what I didn't see before in the dojo. The discrimination towards fatter people. How, we as people do discriminate against fatter people. The attitude of people who aren't considered fat is brought into the dojo. Where the ideal is thin. That fatter people aren't in shape. How possibly some could discriminate against a student student like that of the airlines and insurance companies. Or have to reject a fatter student because of insurance, like it was pointed out with having a hip replacement.

Again with the airlines and insurance companies. If you want to use this in support of the slippery-slope argument that you're clearly trying to make, you need to produce evidence that such discrimination on the part of airlines and insurance companies actually exists.

I was hoping by making issue real and valid and getting people to talk about it, for all us Aikidoka to discuss, we could be active against such discrimination of fatter people, if we are aware of it.

But which issue? As I pointed out to you already, you're talking about at least three different issues, and you simply can't attack them all at once, using the same set of weapons. Choose your battle, then pick your weapons and rally your troops, then have at it.

Buck
10-25-2009, 10:49 AM
The 'epidemic' in obesity isn't just from a redefinition of the BMI. There's something going on in the U.S. that is drastically affecting the average weight; no one seems to know what it is*. For example, just look at newsreel footage of crowds from a couple of decades ago. It's amazing how thin people seem.

Just a chance to explain my smoking theory :)

One theory of mine is people stopped smoking. Here is how it works, it is a known fact people who smoke when they stop gain weight. They replace the oral habitual habit of smoking with another of eating. The metabolism (and endoctrine system among others) is also altered when a person smokes, possibly due to the tobacco and the other stuff in a cig. Smoking also alters your appetite, to be less. Smoking can be a substitute for boredom eating, and snacking. You smoke rather than eat. Smoking was a huge part of the American culture for hundreds of years. In the last, say, 20 years we made a concerted effort to stop smoking, like the 1900's did with stopping chewing tobacco. Smoking is far more dangerous to the health than eating and thus became a substitute (better one in my opinion because smoking is highly toxic). I really don't suggest smoking for weight loss because it is so dangerous and if you stop you will gain all the weight back, if smoking doesn't kill you first.

There are other reasons of course why people gain weight and to point of obesity are things like genetics, disease and psychological reasons.

I think Aikido is a healthy lifestyle, the problem I see in Aikido regularly is the added calories from beer drinking. :D

I think we put too much stress on the "ideal" weight, and by doing so it does great psychological damage.

Voitokas
10-25-2009, 11:38 AM
Aikido is one of the few arenas in which I have never seen people make fun of others' weight. Aikido is a vigorous art, and aikidoka are pretty fit, relative to most people on the street. Yes, people in general are less in shape than they had ought to be; yes, people who are heavy are looked down upon much like people with lung cancer are, because people see obesity and lung cancer as stemming from personal choice. As far as aikido is concerned, though, I don't see the issue? Aikido dojos are generally pretty accepting environments, and aikido can only help get and keep people in shape...

Demetrio Cereijo
10-25-2009, 01:05 PM
I am not fat or obese.

Sure? Can you prove it?

mathewjgano
10-25-2009, 02:20 PM
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2009/10/23/ambulances-for-the-ample.aspx?GT1=38001
here's an interesting bit of news relating to this thread.

Rob Watson
10-25-2009, 02:33 PM
So, I'm fat. Fat and fit are not mutually exclusive states.

No reasonable amount of exercise can compete with simply eating a bit less for dramatic weight loss (fat loss). All it takes is a very modest amount of self control and discipline-MAers supposedly have this in spades, no?

PS Thanks very much I'm down 40 lbs from my max of 270 lbs - at this rate I'll soon be gone completely.

mathewjgano
10-25-2009, 03:04 PM
So, I'm fat. Fat and fit are not mutually exclusive states.

No reasonable amount of exercise can compete with simply eating a bit less for dramatic weight loss (fat loss). All it takes is a very modest amount of self control and discipline-MAers supposedly have this in spades, no?

PS Thanks very much I'm down 40 lbs from my max of 270 lbs - at this rate I'll soon be gone completely.

Congrats! The handful of experts I've spoken to on this topic say basically the same thing you're expressing: intake vs. output. Eat moderately, with plenty of fiber and water (and a relatively low sugar intake) and be active. Genetics plays a big factor in how well this basic formula works, but generally speaking this seems to be the way things work.

Walter Martindale
10-25-2009, 03:23 PM
Well. Hmm. Back in the 70s when in undergrad PE, we were taught that every extra pound (454 g) of fat required about another mile of blood vessels. Don't know if it's true but we didn't question our masters - the professors - in those days.

If it is true, I now carry about 30 extra miles (about 51 km) of extra blood vessels around in my body, relative to my competition weight when I was in judo and then in rowing. (when I was competing, my estimated body fat with two different lab-based methods was about 7%, when it was considered "normal" and "healthy" to be about 12% for a male. now it's higher than 12% - those scales that do the estimates put me in the >20% range)...

The ticker has to service this extra blood flow even though the body is very efficient at shunting blood to active tissues and away from inactive tissues. During exercise, blood flow to the kidneys doesn't change very much but it is a much smaller portion of the total cardiac output. Blood flow to the gut goes way down, and blood flow to the muscles goes way, way up. In a 6'4" 200 lb heavyweight male rower with a ticker developed through thousands of kilometres of aerobic training over several years, the cardiac output can be, in rare cases, as much as 200 litres of blood per minute (FISA Level 1 coach education manuals). With a person that size, the total blood volume is still only as much as 8 litres, so that blood is going around the body (lungs, heart, body, heart, etc) a lot of times in a great big hurry each minute. If you want to confirm any of these numbers, Fritz Hagerman has a LOT of published work on US college and elite rowers' physiological data - remember, I did say that someone with a Q of 200 L would be rare.)

The more excess blubber we (I) carry, the less of my total blood volume I have available for the muscles, the more my work rate goes down because I'm busy supplying blood to inactive tissues instead of active tissues. AND, the harder I have to work to carry the extra weight around.

So - to the end of being better at Aikido (as well as being healthier) I'm working to get rid of some adipose tissue, through eating less but better food and exercising more. I'm down about 4 kg (about 9 lb) over the last couple of months, and the trousers are starting to get loose. The size 5 obi with the dojo name on one end and my name on the other is almost long enough now, to get tied with all of the embroidery visible. Quite a change from competition days when a size 4 obi would go round enough to have more than a foot (30 cm) of extra belt hanging down past the knot... Quite a change, too, from when I was thinking I'd have to get a size 6...

About the obesity epidemic... I was watching a TV documentary about Canada's WW2 in colour film. The biggest thing I noticed was that there were very few cars, people walking everywhere, and very few fat folks - they were all skinny. The obesity epidemic is a complex one, but with suburbia requiring that people drive to the shop, school, work, and with the increased availability of inexpensive "tasty" fatty food, the body's propensity to store what it doesn't need, and the amazing increase in consumption of sugary bottled drinks (That person drinks HOW much cola every day?) it's not really surprising that "western" societies are getting bigger.

The use of the BMI, however, is a vast generalisation, and ignores the composition of the person's weight. While I'm a lot heavier than the average 179 cm male, I'm also carrying a fair amount of muscle under the fat I'm trying to lose, and the BMI only shows a number in the low 30s.

Lighten up folks - both physically and otherwise - It's OK to be self critical but let's not attack others personally - argument over "what" is right is OK, but "what" is right is far more important than "who" is right...

Cheers,
Walter

jss
10-26-2009, 09:13 AM
This whole thread came about last month when I had a discussion with another martial artist who said fat/obese people take Aikido.
So what? If that was an attempt at criticizing Aikido, it wasn't a very intelligent one.

Or have to reject a fatter student because of insurance, like it was pointed out with having a hip replacement.
Have you considered the fact that the chances of a hip replacement surgery being successful become smaller and smaller the fatter the patient is? Fat makes surgery more complicated and hip replacements can only support a limited amount of weight.

Fat should not be a bad word. We all are fat unless we have 0 body fat.
You're not helping your argument by playing silly word games.
Being fat is bad for you, there's enough medical research to support this. And sure, there's also a fashion ideal (unhealthily skinny and thoroughly photoshopped), ignore that nonsense. There's also a celebrity ideal (slender women and six-pack men), but as with most ideals most people will never live up to them. I'm not as smart as Einstein, as fast as Usain Bolt or as handsome as Brad Pitt, either. Big deal.

It's not just a matter of will power, either; statistically, diets don't work in the long run. The only thing that has been proven to get the weight off of very overweight people, and keep it off, is bariatric surgery. Not that there aren't exceptions (though even the exceptions tend to relapse after a couple of years), but statistically it takes surgery to keep weight off of someone with a tendency towards overweight.
Those surgeries aren't that successful in the long run either. They force people to eat less, but besides that, the eating and moving habits of the people who have them, stay the same. More long-term studies are needed to determine the success of the surgery.

mathewjgano
10-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Joep, I got the impression Buck was trying to include more senstivity toward the obese, not to criticize Aikido...maybe I missed something?
The discrimination is growing against fat people.

Hogan
10-26-2009, 11:52 AM
...Again with the airlines and insurance companies. If you want to use this in support of the slippery-slope argument that you're clearly trying to make, you need to produce evidence that such discrimination on the part of airlines and insurance companies actually exists. ....

Mary, I am not Philip, but allow me:

Airline policy/bias:
http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/apr/16/business/chi-biz-united-airlines-obese-two-seats-april15

http://thebsreport.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/southwest-airlines-prevents-obese-man-from-flying/

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Southwest+to+charge+obese+fliers+for+an+extra+seat.-a087549605

Insurance policy/bias:
http://bluewavecanada.blogspot.com/2009/10/insurance-company-discriminates-against.html

http://www.news24.com/Content/World/992/97d390bd3798444e9cc29ea4c01bbb61/22-10-2009-10-44/Obese_patients_charged_more

http://cbs3.com/health/ambulance.obese.charge.2.1264845.html

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/topstories/story/988655.html

http://www2.wspa.com/spa/news/consumer/article/obese_workers_to_pay_higher_insurance_costs_in_nc/27809/

These are just a few examples. Is this what you are asking??

jonreading
10-26-2009, 12:44 PM
Obesity is a serious health risk that affects our ability to train aikido. This is a sensitive subject, but also an elephant in the room (no pun intended). Morbid obesity is a dangerous problem.

The BMI is a reference tool for Americans to gauge and control their weight. Weight control is a problem in the US and we have a number of other references that support the argument that weight control is a health risk for Americans.

If you have every had a conversation with a loved one about their weight, you can appreciate the ache of embarrassment; if you have ever lost a loved one because of weight-related illness, you can see beyond the ache of embarassment and have the compassion of tough-love to encourage weight control.

Specifically, aikido is a martial art in which students can seriously participate and be overweight. I do not think we [collectively] are as shallow as to have an image problem in aikido, but I think the problem in aikido is related to weight comes in the intensity to train, the length of training, and the impact on our bodies. Weight becomes an issue when we sacrifice these elements in our training.

One of the good things about aikido is that we can train through a variety of physical conditions. We can be old, heavy, damaged, disabled, or any number of physical limitations and still train aikido. The question is, do we strive to better condition our bodies to improve our aikido? I believe as part of our training, aikido should improve our body condition. To some extent, that is an advantage of aikido because it attracts students who otherwise do not have access to martial arts training.

DonMagee
10-26-2009, 01:56 PM
I personally think airlines should charge a flat rate for the seat, then X rate per pound on top of that. More weight = more fuel. It makes sense.

With that said http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91045

:D

Aikibu
10-26-2009, 02:38 PM
Well since it's being inferred there is more to being fat than just "willpower"... The Fast Food Industry alone spends Billions getting folks to eat it's garbage...and that is just one of a thousand examples...Our entire culture around food needs to change including how we grow it, harvest it, transport it, market it and finally eat it...We're all just reflections of that on most levels...We are truly a "Fast Food Nation."

Another example I love is Sushi (Which is the reason I do not eat fish anymore) Sushi was basically one of many different and distinct dishes any culture might have...Now it's very popular and it's served all over the world,,,The result? The fish stocks the Sushi market relies on for it's product have basically collapsed due to over demand. Within the last 30 years most major game fish populations have declined to less than 10% of their baseline. This puts huge pressure on "sub-standard" fish species to fill in the gaps and now they're in major decline too..

Anyway back to the subject Like here already the complaint about most Aikidoka are fat and out of shape is just another slander meme

It might not matter soon anyway If things keep going the way they are we might have to learn how to eat like our grandparents did during the Depression Nothing but staples... and the average weight of most Americans will come down because food may once again be about hunger and sustenance; and not emotional satisfaction and culture...

But hey the Fast Food Conglomerates have anticipated this trend which is the reason "dollar menus" are so popular.

Still need the sugar fat buzz to your brain? heh heh heh It will only cost you a buck. :D

William Hazen

Rob Watson
10-26-2009, 03:05 PM
Well. Hmm. Back in the 70s when in undergrad PE, we were taught that every extra pound (454 g) of fat required about another mile of blood vessels. Don't know if it's true but we didn't question our masters - the professors - in those days.

I'm no expert but this smacks of BS in the extreme.

BMI is simple because it just uses a ruler and a scale which most folks have in their house already. Percent body fat is a much better measure of fat but still is not the best nor an easy measurement - it can still be done at home but is only an estimate.

The real killer is fat on and around the organs as opposed to fat below the skin. Beer belly is not so bad but a few pounds of fat around the kidneys liver and heart will do one dirty.

Rob Watson
10-26-2009, 03:51 PM
Genetics plays a big factor in how well this basic formula works, but generally speaking this seems to be the way things work.

Not really. Genetics does play a role in the relative amounts of bone, muscle ,etc (some folks do have bigger bones) and that is why BMI, and % body fat from density measures are estimates usually +/- 10% accuracy. To get real accurate numbers (+/-1%) fancy methods (like DEXA dual energy x-ray absorptiometry) to directly measure the density of the various tissues are needed.

Genetics can also play a role in the efficiency of the metabolism. Big factor? I actually don't know a study that shows the typical variation in metabolic rates for various populations but I doubt it is very much (15% would be a bunch - but I could be wrong). I have seen studies that show 6% variation in oxygen intake (a strong indicator of metabolic rates) due to the season (winter versus summer).

Walter Martindale
10-26-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm no expert but this smacks of BS in the extreme.

BMI is simple because it just uses a ruler and a scale which most folks have in their house already. Percent body fat is a much better measure of fat but still is not the best nor an easy measurement - it can still be done at home but is only an estimate.

The real killer is fat on and around the organs as opposed to fat below the skin. Beer belly is not so bad but a few pounds of fat around the kidneys liver and heart will do one dirty.

Sorry mate. Every single muscle fibre in your body is in direct contact with between 1 and 5 or more capillaries, depending in part on the training status of the muscle in question - it's a local adaptation.. Muscle fibres are something around the diameter of a hair. If you don't believe me look it up in Grant's Atlas of Human Anatomy or some similar reference. A "pound" of fat is about the size of a block of butter of the same weight. Imagine that pound of fat permeated every 1/4 millimetre or so with a capillary (blood vessel small enough for red cells to go through in single file only - invisible to the naked eye) - in all directions, so that each fat cell is in direct contact with at least one blood vessel. Individual cells are REALLY small (despite fat cells being able to grow fairly large, it's still a really small version of fairly large), so we're talking about a lot of blood vessels - no blood flow to the fat cell, no access by oxygen, no waste removal, no hormone transport, no free fatty acid activation when you get into "aerobic" mode in a long training session. Each cell needs to be pretty close to a blood supply or it dies.
It ain't BS - it's biology.

We're all slightly different from each other but in general, we store fat everywhere in proportion. If we're programmed by Mum and Dad to have a lot of core fat, then we'll have a lot of fat inside or "organ fat". If we're programmed to store a lot subcutaneously, we'll have a lot of fat under the skin. Thing is, it's all stored everywhere, so if you're storing it "inside" you'll be storing it "outside" also - outside under the skin, the proportions will be dictated by your choice of parents. There will also be "marbling" - just like those male cattle.

The BMI sometimes can tell an athlete that he or she is obese - a full length mirror can be at least as useful, (hmm, yep, gut's sticking out and I can't see the fibres in my pecs ripple any more, that sure snuck up on me). I can't remember what scaling method was used, but once upon a time when I was competing in the 80 kg class in judo, and sucked down to make weight, I got measured (height, weight, etc., for comparison with an actuarial table) and was told that my 176 lb fighting trim was overweight, and I should only weigh about 150 lb for my height. Didn't phase the idiot that I had almost no skinfold thickness (oh for those bygone days), could bench over 250 lb, do pullups with 80 lb tied to me, climb three flights of stairs with the 90 kg sempai piggybacked - I was obese and had to lose weight.

Anyhoo - Kevin's commentary about the food industry and the benefits of returning to basics is spot on.

Yikes, look at the time...
W

mathewjgano
10-26-2009, 04:16 PM
The Fast Food Industry alone spends Billions getting folks to eat it's garbage...and that is just one of a thousand examples...Our entire culture around food needs to change including how we grow it, harvest it, transport it, market it and finally eat it...We're all just reflections of that on most levels...We are truly a "Fast Food Nation."

Exactly. I wish my memory was better, but I vaguely recall an interesting video which described some of the effects of the agricultural revolution which occured during the 50's (Green Revolution?). Part of it, as I recall, had to do with how economic factors changed our traditional eating habits, for both good and bad. I'll have to look through some of my old notes and see if I can find anything interesting.

mathewjgano
10-26-2009, 04:27 PM
[Big factor? Not really.]

I suppose I should have left it at "a" factor. Thanks for the correction and info!
Take care,
Matt

Keith Larman
10-26-2009, 07:44 PM
There is a very good book out there most of you should consider reading. "In Defense of Food, An Eater's Manifesto (http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Food-Eaters-Manifesto/dp/0143114964/ref=ed_oe_p)". Spectacular book that cuts through most of the food "industry" hype and BS. And it gives a fairly dispassionate look at what food is all about in the larger context of us as beings that do in fact need to eat...

DH
10-26-2009, 08:29 PM
I got measured (height, weight, etc., for comparison with an actuarial table) and was told that my 176 lb fighting trim was overweight, and I should only weigh about 150 lb for my height. Didn't phase the idiot that I had almost no skinfold thickness (oh for those bygone days), could bench over 250 lb, do pullups with 80 lb tied to me, climb three flights of stairs with the 90 kg sempai piggybacked - I was obese and had to lose weight.

Anyhoo - Kevin's commentary about the food industry and the benefits of returning to basics is spot on.

Yikes, look at the time...
W
He's not an idiot for telling you so. Carrying muscle is "safer" then carrying fat for many reasons, but any tissue over a certain mass to frame ratio- none-the-less taxes your heart, lungs and circulatory system. I know of two powerlifters (healthy in every other way) who had heart attackes in their thirties. Opinion is not required.

Personally I think the best way to lose weight is to *conserve* energy.
1. Stop *carrying* food to your face.
2. And then you can cut down on your chewing.

Then if you can find the time get off your butt and exercise.

Most of the reasons the world has better overal "health care" stats than the U.S. is not their level of medical care, it's their lifestyle choices by way of preventative measures. We eat the worst diet, and are the fastest people, on earth due to our lifestyle choices.
Dan

Buck
10-26-2009, 08:55 PM
Joep, I got the impression Buck was trying to include more senstivity toward the obese, not to criticize Aikido...maybe I missed something?

Once again Matt, a big thanks.

Janet Rosen
10-27-2009, 12:15 AM
Then if you can find the time get off your butt and exercise.
Like a tshirt says: "Ask your doctor if getting your butt off the couch is right for you."

jss
10-27-2009, 02:37 AM
Joep, I got the impression Buck was trying to include more senstivity toward the obese, not to criticize Aikido...maybe I missed something?
Well, in this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=243920&postcount=20) he did say:
It just another jab at Aikido, its all other arts only have dangerously thin people.
To which I replied in this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=243983&postcount=31):
So what? If that was an attempt at criticizing Aikido, it wasn't a very intelligent one.
So first of all, I said it was the martial artist Buck spoke with that tried to criticize Aikido, not Buck himself.
And secondly, Buck qualified the other guy's remark as "another jab at Aikido", how is a jab not "an attempt to criticize"?

Buck
10-27-2009, 07:10 AM
There are attitudes against fatter people, it is discriminatory, and its getting worse. Aikidoka are people who because of our philosophy of the art should be sensitive and realistic, and not discriminatory.

A person can be charged twice the amount by an airline for being fatter. The average Joe says, get off the couch and stop stuffing your face with junk food, doctors are saying it is a national health crisis. Insurance company's are prejudice with coverage. There are industries against weight, like fashion, fitness, and movies that says beauty is thin which all effect the way we see each other. Yet, there should be other things that, that energy should go into that would benefit society.

Fat and obese people don't make money, being fat doesn't make a profit, say like Alcoholism does. Airlines support drinking, doctor's say wine and beer are good for you. Insurance companies will still insure you. Other industries glamorize drinking, we as a society accept drinking as a part of living. Yet, drinking, being drunk, kills more people, does more social damage, is worse for your health, a unhealthy lifestyle, and it isn't pretty. Yet the liquor industry is a billion dollar industry, therefore, that makes it socially acceptable.

I will discuss soon my comment about "another jab at Aikido" as there seems to be some confusion by a person about it. Basically, that we are more accepting of others thus we don't follow the perfect ideal.

DonMagee
10-27-2009, 07:51 AM
There are attitudes against fatter people, it is discriminatory, and its getting worse. Aikidoka are people who because of our philosophy of the art should be sensitive and realistic, and not discriminatory.

A person can be charged twice the amount by an airline for being fatter. The average Joe says, get off the couch and stop stuffing your face with junk food, doctors are saying it is a national health crisis. Insurance company's are prejudice with coverage. There are industries against weight, like fashion, fitness, and movies that says beauty is thin which all effect the way we see each other. Yet, there should be other things that, that energy should go into that would benefit society.

Fat and obese people don't make money, being fat doesn't make a profit, say like Alcoholism does. Airlines support drinking, doctor's say wine and beer are good for you. Insurance companies will still insure you. Other industries glamorize drinking, we as a society accept drinking as a part of living. Yet, drinking, being drunk, kills more people, does more social damage, is worse for your health, a unhealthy lifestyle, and it isn't pretty. Yet the liquor industry is a billion dollar industry, therefore, that makes it socially acceptable.

I will discuss soon my comment about "another jab at Aikido" as there seems to be some confusion by a person about it. Basically, that we are more accepting of others thus we don't follow the perfect ideal.

I see nothing wrong with discrimination in itself. Discrimination contrary to popular belief is not a bad thing in every case. For example, I like high quality cuts of beef. I don't eat at a local steak shop because their beef is crappy. This is a good thing because hopefully they will go out of business or get better steaks.

I am discriminatory against people who choose to do things then expect me to accommodate their poor life choice. To me being too fat is no different then wanting to light up a smoke. It's disgusting and annoying. If they don't like the social stigma that comes with it, then they should deal with the problem and not ask for acceptance.

I pay higher car insurance rates. This is solely because I am a man. When I got married, my rates decreased? Why? Because married men tend to be safer drivers then unmarred ones. Well lets look at health. I think people who are not trying to live healthy are should pay higher insurance rates? Why? Because like this care insurance example, it will keep my rates down.

I have to work my ass off to keep halfway in shape. My body craves suger like it was crack. I can't even look at a pepsi without desiring it. I am almost always universally hungry. Yet somehow though pure force of will I'm able to keep myself under 180 pounds. I was 210 at one point in my life and my doctor told me I was on the path to becoming a diabetic. That forced a change in me. Yet I have family members who actually didn't stop, became diabetic, and still have not changed. Why should we not discriminate against them? They chose this.

jss
10-27-2009, 08:36 AM
I will discuss soon my comment about "another jab at Aikido" as there seems to be some confusion by a person about it.
Buck, I'd appreciate it if you would just use my name when referring to me.

Aikibu
10-27-2009, 11:03 AM
Yet I have family members who actually didn't stop, became diabetic, and still have not changed. Why should we not discriminate against them? They chose this.

Good Question...Here's another one... Can most Heroin Crack or Nicotine Addicts quit on their own without getting help?

For some it's the same with sugar...

Like I said before food is not just about nutrition... If it was... Obesity would be far less of an issue...

Here's a hint...The next time you walk in to a Grocery Store look around carefully...Where is the most nutritious food located? What about the junk food?

William Hazen

Keith Larman
10-27-2009, 12:06 PM
The six rules for eating...

http://www.michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=77

ninjaqutie
10-27-2009, 12:11 PM
To the original poster, I don't think aikido could be lumped into an activity that does not burn calories. I know that our workouts can be pretty intense and my husband has lost over 20 pounds since he started classes. If you were to come in and look around our dojo, I don't think you would see too many people who would be considered obese. Then again, a lot of people in our dojo tend to be pretty active. We have mountain bikers, hikers, climbers, actors, people who train 4 or more days a week at 2 or 3 hours a day, etc. Not to mention it seems that a healthy diet seems important to a lot of us at the dojo. Then again, it seems that a lot of people in Oregon that I have met have this same ideology towards being healthy.

Someone else mentioned obese v. fitness. I have to completely agree. A person can be thin and not be in good physical shape. If you were to put some skinny person who didn't exercise up against someone who is average or slightly overweight who exercised on a daily basis, my bet would be that the "bigger" person would win. It is a common misconception that athletes are thin. This isn't always true. Heck, take a look at WTA. There are several bigger girls who play tennis and not all of that weight is muscle. You can bet they are training every day and that they are in shape (by shape I mean fitness). It happens to me all the time. When I complain that I need to get back in shape people always tell me "You don't need to lose weight!" Losing weight and getting in shape are two completely different things (though they can go hand in hand). I guess another thing women could relate to is the whole cellulite thing. People assume that if a girl is thin she doesn't have any and that it is a problem overweight women have. That isn't really true. Any ladies who read the tabloids knows that skinny people (Paris for instance) has it. Heck, most women have it!

When it comes down to it, some people have better metabolisms then others. Some people have medical conditions that prevent their body from metabolizing food properly. Even when they are eating healthy and getting exercis, they just aren't able to get to where they would like/ should be. Also, though BMI can be a great tool, it shouldn't be treated as gospel. Someone could be in their weight range, but still have more fat on their body then is healthy (since fat doesn't weigh as much) and like a previous poster said, someone could be "overweight" because they have a higher muscle mass.

Overweight/obesity also depends on who you talk to. If you sent me to a modeling agency, I would probably be told "You are overweight. You need to lose 15 pounds." (so I could fit into the sample size clothes- which still wouldn't fit my hips). That would then mean less jobs for me… or I could enter the “dreaded” plus size mode industry. Yes, models that don't fit sample size clothing (often size 4 or smaller, though they can be let out to accommodate a size 5 sometimes) are often considered plus size. Somehow, I don’t think most of us would call those models overweight, yet by modeling standards, they are.

Yes, maintaining a proper weight, eating healthy and getting exercise are all important aspects of living a healthy lifestyle, but I don’t think they are things we should all get too hung up about. Each person has to figure out what their healthy body is and do what is needed to keep it that way. Balance and moderation is key; too much of a good thing can also be bad. Aikido is an art that accepts everyone who is willing to leave everything at the door, come in as equals and train. Spend less time worrying about the size of the person’s waist you are working with and more on learning. My guess is that you would get more out of the training session. :O)

DonMagee
10-27-2009, 01:15 PM
Good Question...Here's another one... Can most Heroin Crack or Nicotine Addicts quit on their own without getting help?

For some it's the same with sugar...

Like I said before food is not just about nutrition... If it was... Obesity would be far less of an issue...

Here's a hint...The next time you walk in to a Grocery Store look around carefully...Where is the most nutritious food located? What about the junk food?

William Hazen

I don't feel sorry for crack addicts. I already stated above that I discriminate against smokers. No one is forcing them to start, no one is forcing them to stop. But none of us should be paying for the burden they pose. I'm so sick of catering to people simply because they don't want to fix what is wrong with them. I'm also sick of this "it's a sickness" bullcrap. I know alcoholics, they drink because people allow it to be ok for them to drink. There is a reason people don't tend to seek help until they hit rock
bottom.

I'm all for helping people who want to change. I'll walk next to a friend who is honestly trying to lose weight, I'll encourage him to continue, I'll even hound him to keep his schedule. I would never stop anyone from bettering themselves. This is not about that.

This is about the idea that we should accept this and in fact support it. That they have a right to put this burden on us. That everyone should pay more or be inconvenienced because of the gluttony of a few others. And that is all it is, gluttony and lack of self control. I walk by a hundred candybars a day (I'm a daily shopper). I freaking love chocolate. I want to buy everyone one of them. I have to consciously NOT look just to make it though the line. I get really angry at my wife if she asks if we can buy one because I know it is a thin line for me. If you buy me a case of pepsi I'll drink it dry in a few days. I had to make a choice. Live healthy and not be diabetic, or say screw it, keep gaining weight, keep living on a diet of suger, keep having increasingly more health issues, and be a burden on those who I encounter on my day to day life.

I'm not superman. I have a bit of a belly. I'm 5'10" 175 pounds. I can grab a handful of belly. Depending on my ability to keep working out and to control my eating I can vary from 160 to 175, yet that is a far cry from the 200+ I was before I decided to stop.

It's not a illness, it's being lazy, a lack of willpower. No one can fix these people. They simply have to decide to fix themselves, and then have the desire to go though with it. This means the consequences for not doing it have to be greater then just accepting it. Suffering is the single greatest human motivator.

mathewjgano
10-27-2009, 04:29 PM
I think it's easy to judge folks who take something to excess. I would say that willpower is at the source of all behavior, let alone addictive behavior, but that doesn't mean something can't or shouldn't be done about it. I feel where some pervasive negative exists, it is in the best interest of a society to impliment a positive influence.
I feel sorry for crack-heads. Most didn't have the upbringing that I did.

Aikibu
10-27-2009, 05:04 PM
I think it's easy to judge folks who take something to excess. I would say that willpower is at the source of all behavior, let alone addictive behavior, but that doesn't mean something can't or shouldn't be done about it. I feel where some pervasive negative exists, it is in the best interest of a society to impliment a positive influence.
I feel sorry for crack-heads. Most didn't have the upbringing that I did.

Agreed though among the upper middle class the eating disorders don't always lead to obesity... they can also lead to severe malnutrition disorders like Anorexia or Bulimia

Despite the opinions of some Compulsive Overeating is a recognized Medical Condition just like any other "disorder" and yes it's imperative the person "hit bottom" to get help However...the deck is still massively stacked against them. You have to eat...IMHE 9 out of 10 folks don't eat the way Micheal Pollen suggested and 10% of those develop an eating disorder. I feel the prejudice against overweight people is one of the last straw man memes the Fast Food Corporations have to obfuscate the damage they do to folks... Hence the reason I bristle when I hear this kind of ignorance directed towards Aikido.

Take it from someone who's in recovery for an eating disorder. :)

Is there a direct correlation between the huge number of Fast Food Restaurants near schools and the Billions spent on Marketing these foods to kids and the huge epidemic in Childhood Obesity?

You be the judge...:)

William Hazen

Keith Larman
10-27-2009, 05:43 PM
And for those who haven't read Mr. Pollan's books, another rule is to avoid any food that lists more than 5 ingredients on the label. The corollary to that rule is to avoid foods that list anything you cannot easily pronounce.

One thing we told our daughter was that she could get any breakfast cereal she wanted. The only rule I had was that it had to have less than 10 grams of sugar per serving. There are some that are less than that, but they are few. So apart from Cherrios we really don't have any breakfast cereal in the house. Occasionally I'll have her read the label about sodium too and let her judge for herself. She's gotten quite good about it. And sometimes keeps us in line too. :)

There is also a program out there called "fitday". They have a free web based diet tracking system. Not perfect, but hey, well built and free.

So once we started doing the "read the label" thing and restricted sugar and sodium levels, we were left pretty much with only preparing our food ourselves. Which is really the point. The science experiments that we call "packaged food" and "fast food" are killing us.

Learn to prepare your own food. Avoid anything that won't rot. Eat a balance of things but focus on plant stuff. Basically the more processed the "food" the less it resembles food.

Fruit, veggies, meats, dairy, legumes, etc. are primary. Quinoa is a great grain -- easy to cook, high in protein, and more complex than rices. Sparingly whole grains in breads, pasta. Avoid sugar. Avoid more processed grains (most wheats are now so finely ground with stainless steel rollers that our bodies barely have to work to digest them as compared with grains coarsely ground on stones).

Started doing that a year or two ago. Went from "pre-diabetic" to "not". Lost a few inches around the middle (more to go). Feel better overall.

Made a point to do the farmer's market more. Growing more in the yard too. Right now overloaded with persimmons. I even bake our bread now using sourdough starter (natural, wild leavening) using mostly whole grains (just a bit of white flour or else the kid won't eat it -- we have to compromise on some things).

Yeah, more work to do things that way. More planning. And occasionally I do go in for a good plate of Gai Kua at the local thai place.

We do allow occasional bit of candy. And we don't really demonize anything beyond asking her to read the labels.

And fwiw, thanks all for this thread. I've been getting up a bit early every morning and walking for my own health. I got thinking about it and asked the kid if she'd like to get up 30 minutes earlier and go with me. So this morning we had a lovely short walk together. Even though she is extremely active (soccer fanatic and always moving) I figure teaching her to set a schedule and exercise daily is a good example to set. And hopefully it will help keep me doing it too. Lord knows my knees, back and midsection need the help.

Voitokas
10-27-2009, 07:22 PM
At least half white flour and added wheat germ makes the best sourdough - I'm with the kid on that one! :)

Rob Watson
10-27-2009, 08:12 PM
I think it's easy to judge folks who take something to excess. I would say that willpower is at the source of all behavior, let alone addictive behavior, but that doesn't mean something can't or shouldn't be done about it. I feel where some pervasive negative exists, it is in the best interest of a society to impliment a positive influence.
I feel sorry for crack-heads. Most didn't have the upbringing that I did.

I know plenty of crack heads and meth heads that are better educated and have had a much better upbringing than me (I think I got it pretty good). I don't feel sorry for them. I know plenty of crack/meth heads that had it much worse than me and I don't feel sorry for them either. They have brothers and sisters that are doing fine and are on a good track. It is complicated and it is simple. Some choose to avoid that junk and some choose to jump in with both feet.

I even know twin brothers (both college grads) ones a crack head and ones a tea tottler.One decided he likes crack and the other decided he likes track. What's different about them?

mathewjgano
10-27-2009, 11:23 PM
I know plenty of crack heads and meth heads that are better educated and have had a much better upbringing than me (I think I got it pretty good). I don't feel sorry for them. I know plenty of crack/meth heads that had it much worse than me and I don't feel sorry for them either. They have brothers and sisters that are doing fine and are on a good track. It is complicated and it is simple. Some choose to avoid that junk and some choose to jump in with both feet.

I even know twin brothers (both college grads) ones a crack head and ones a tea tottler.One decided he likes crack and the other decided he likes track. What's different about them?

Of course we're not talking about physically addictive drugs per se, but rather obsessive behavior, which is often quite similar...Sticking with the more nefarious comparison because I actually have first-hand experience with it: I grew up in a place where at age 9 we played a game called suck the sugar through the straw. The only reason, I believe, I didn't graduate to the real stuff is because I had very strong positive influences in place to counter-act those negative influences. You're right, it's hard to say exactly why some people do some things...some cats die simply because of a flickering moment's curiosity, after all. I think my point still stands however, that where we see negative behaviors in place, it is a good idea to work toward creating positive influences. In the civic sense this means social programs of some kind.
I'm not trying to take away from the fact that each person is ultimately responsible for themselves. Life is a series of choices and even under the most dire settings we retain free will, painful though it may be to exercize.
However, once a problem has been rocognized I believe a response is in order...usually in the form of education, which, as an aside, i feel is a grossly underappreciated aspect of our society. But then again my short answer to all of society's qualms is more authentic education.

Aikibu
10-28-2009, 01:31 AM
I know plenty of crack heads and meth heads that are better educated and have had a much better upbringing than me (I think I got it pretty good). I don't feel sorry for them. I know plenty of crack/meth heads that had it much worse than me and I don't feel sorry for them either. They have brothers and sisters that are doing fine and are on a good track. It is complicated and it is simple. Some choose to avoid that junk and some choose to jump in with both feet.

I even know twin brothers (both college grads) ones a crack head and ones a tea tottler.One decided he likes crack and the other decided he likes track. What's different about them?

You completely ignore the physiological aspect of addiction morphology but most normal folks do... which is why "will power" seems like such a rational choice to them...

Right now the Taliban are using a well known weapon to destroy our troops in Afghanistan and cause another huge public health nightmare here at home in the near future...Introducing and creating a hardcore addict population among our troops with heroin...Just like the Communists did with China White from the Golden Triangle during the Vietnam War... In can be argued those troops who came home with a hardcore heroin addiction started and helped fuel our almost 30 year "War on Drugs."

Talk about a Weapon of Mass Destruction...

Want another? It's estimated one average child from the age of 4 to 10 watches over 5 THOUSAND fast food commercials on television...

Choice Indeed...

William Hazen

George S. Ledyard
10-28-2009, 01:42 AM
Too much trouble, George... besides, I don't like the way their bones sound when they... oh, never mind... :yuck:

Besides, I've misplaced a bit over forty pounds in the past three months and will continue to pay little attention to where I've left them for another sixty. They won't do the hip replacement until I've lost the weight... rest easy folks, it's your tax dollars at work, and thank you very much. :)

Best regards,

If more of my tax dollars went to such good causes, I'd be a lot happier. Anyway, you are making me and Francis look bad... keep it up and you are out of the seriously big boys club. I'll have to call Big Tony instead...

DonMagee
10-28-2009, 07:56 AM
I have a simple rule. If i couldn't of killed it, caught it, or picked it, then it is unhealthy.

That means I try to always make my own food. It costs more, it takes longer, and it's a pain in the ass, but when I'm consistent with it I'm lower weight and healthier.

mathewjgano
10-28-2009, 08:54 AM
You completely ignore the physiological aspect of addiction morphology but most normal folks do... which is why "will power" seems like such a rational choice to them...

Right now the Taliban are using a well known weapon to destroy our troops in Afghanistan and cause another huge public health nightmare here at home in the near future...Introducing and creating a hardcore addict population among our troops with heroin...Just like the Communists did with China White from the Golden Triangle during the Vietnam War... In can be argued those troops who came home with a hardcore heroin addiction started and helped fuel our almost 30 year "War on Drugs."

Talk about a Weapon of Mass Destruction...

Want another? It's estimated one average child from the age of 4 to 10 watches over 5 THOUSAND fast food commercials on television...

Choice Indeed...

William Hazen

That's a good point to make I think. Everything we do leaves a mark on the brain (i.e. develops a degree of hard-wiring). This is why habits can be so hard to break. Ask any addict about the power of association: certain smells, songs, etc. lead to profound physical responses associated with the addiction in question. Sure, it's easy to make an excuse out of it, but that shouldn't change the validity behind it either. People who have developed a small life-time of a habit have to put more effort into their will than folks with a less developed habit simply because those neurological pathways are so much more developed. Add the effects of physical dependancy, sometimes denoted as tolerance, and I believe it becomes even more difficult...and people do develop tolerance to things like sodium, a major componant to fast food.
Again, just to reinforce an idea, this shouldn't take away from the fact that willpower is the essential element to overcoming bad habits, but to dismiss this aspect of the reality behind addiction of any kind is to ignore an important truth, in my opinion...and is an excuse in its own right.
And as an aside, this is an example of why I'm so jaded toward the business culture: Money always seems to comes first; healthy behavior is an afterthought.

DonMagee
10-28-2009, 09:58 AM
My wife smoked for years before we met. When we first moved in together we made a rule that there would be no smoking in our small 1 bedroom apartment. She had always talked about quitting but never did it.

We were on the 3rd floor and she would go out on the balcony to smoke. That summer we got a very aggressive wasp nest on the balcony. The apartment complex said they would remove it after the season because there was no way for a worker to get to it without being attacked. Just opening the sliding door got you stung.

Now she was faced with risking pain, or walking down 3 flights of stairs every single time she wanted to smoke. By the time fall came she had quit smoking.

She says she thinks about it now and then, but then she thinks about the stink, the effort, and the cost. That keeps her out of it. She has never smoked again, it's been well over 7 years. It worked out well for her because I had told her I would never marry a smoker. Maybe that was her twisted plan after all. ;-)

mathewjgano
10-28-2009, 10:08 AM
My wife smoked for years before we met. When we first moved in together we made a rule that there would be no smoking in our small 1 bedroom apartment. She had always talked about quitting but never did it.

We were on the 3rd floor and she would go out on the balcony to smoke. That summer we got a very aggressive wasp nest on the balcony. The apartment complex said they would remove it after the season because there was no way for a worker to get to it without being attacked. Just opening the sliding door got you stung.

Now she was faced with risking pain, or walking down 3 flights of stairs every single time she wanted to smoke. By the time fall came she had quit smoking.

She says she thinks about it now and then, but then she thinks about the stink, the effort, and the cost. That keeps her out of it. She has never smoked again, it's been well over 7 years. It worked out well for her because I had told her I would never marry a smoker. Maybe that was her twisted plan after all. ;-)

It's funny how a little positive reinforcement can make a world of difference. For my grampa it took the doc telling him he would die soon if he didn't quit. His wife quit more or less of her own accord, but she said she never quit: she just wasn't smoking "right now." Decades later she's still not smoking. It's interesting what works for different people.

C. David Henderson
10-28-2009, 10:52 AM
Everything we do leaves a mark on the brain (i.e. develops a degree of hard-wiring).

Reminded me of this K.D. Lang song:

My Old Addiction

My old addiction
Changed the wiring in my brain
So that when it turns the switches
Then I am not the same

So like the flowers toward the Sun
I will follow
Stretch myself out thin
Like there's a part of me that's already buried
That sends me out into this window

My old addiction
Is a flood upon the land
This tiny lifeboat
Can keep me dry
But my weight is all
That it can stand

So when I try to lean just a little
For just a splash to cool my face
Ahh that trickle
Turns out fickle
Fills my boat up
Five miles deep

My old addiction
Makes me crave only what is best
Like these just this morning song birds
Craving upward from the nest
These tiny birds outside my window
Take my hand to be their mom
These open mouths
Would trust and swallow
Anything that came along

Like my old addiction
Now the other side of Day
As the springtime
Of my life's time
Turn's the other way

If a swan can have a song
I think I know that tune
But the page is only scrawled
And I am gone this afternoon
But the page is only scrawled
And I am gone this afternoon.

Regards,

cdh

jonreading
10-28-2009, 12:16 PM
I have now read several excuses for obesity:
1. The fast food chains advertising compaigns force us to make poor eating decisions
2. Our parent pass along to us "fat" genes and they make us fat
3. Eating is an addiction similar to heroine and we can't stop without intervention

You know what is absent from those excuses? Our own choices.
Obesity is a problem in the US. Our society should be applying a healthy encouragment to take better care of our bodies. We should want to be in better shape. I think we have negative pressure from the glamour of thin, but I believe we should advocate a healthier lifestyle.

(Excluding those who truly suffer from illnesses which adversely affect their bodies) My keyboard is dripping with sarcasm.

Got fat genes from your parents? That sucks - you will need to tweak your lifestyle choices to make up for that problem. High blood pressure? That sucks too - guess you'll have a slightly different lifestyle too. Metabolism slowing down? Guess you can't eat like you're 18 anymore. Every day we are presented with many lifestyle choices that can affect our health.

Fat and obese people don't make money, being fat doesn't make a profit, say like Alcoholism does. Airlines support drinking, doctor's say wine and beer are good for you. Insurance companies will still insure you. Other industries glamorize drinking, we as a society accept drinking as a part of living. Yet, drinking, being drunk, kills more people, does more social damage, is worse for your health, a unhealthy lifestyle, and it isn't pretty. Yet the liquor industry is a billion dollar industry, therefore, that makes it socially acceptable.

Well since it's being inferred there is more to being fat than just "willpower"... The Fast Food Industry alone spends Billions getting folks to eat it's garbage...and that is just one of a thousand examples...Our entire culture around food needs to change including how we grow it, harvest it, transport it, market it and finally eat it...We're all just reflections of that on most levels...We are truly a "Fast Food Nation."

Fat people don't make money for industry? Yet the fast food industry spends billions of dollars marketing to attract customers. We are not getting straight facts and now unsubstantiated claims are starting to conflict. The food industry makes money because people choose to eat prepared meals, their weight [with respect to the industry] is irrevelant to that choice.

I have a unique approach to stress - I walk at lunchtime and work in my yard on the weekends.

I go to a special retreat for people who have weight control concerns - I call it a gym.

My wife is always there for me when I can't seem to get motivated - she intervenes with the TV power button.

I am on a special diet of foods - it's the home-cooked meal.

These comments seem sarcastic, but I am writing them to show how many small decisions each day contribute to healthier lifestyles. None of these decisions have sinister industry plots behind them, or unstoppable force applied to affect my behavior me (** my wife excluded), or countless money spend to affect me. In fact, no one cares when I do these things.

But that's the rub - I am responsible for my decisions what if no one will care if I make poor ones? No one pats me on the back when I walk at lunchtime. No one says good job when I make dinner at home. But if I'm a victim...The fast food industry made me fatty food... The grocery store made me buy junk food... My parents gave me fat genes... Work doesn't give me time to exercise... Well, maybe that's different.

Keep your victimization. I'll answer to the bag of porkrinds I ate composing this response. This thread is starting to sound like a soapbox...It's only a matter of time till someone quotes one of the anti-food industry books in circulation (wait...I think that already happened.)

mathewjgano
10-28-2009, 12:53 PM
I have now read several excuses for obesity:
1. The fast food chains advertising compaigns force us to make poor eating decisions
2. Our parent pass along to us "fat" genes and they make us fat
3. Eating is an addiction similar to heroine and we can't stop without intervention

I think those mischaracterize the messages I've been reading here, though maybe I've been misunderstanding what folks have intended to express.
1. There are cultural issues at play; they are an influence.
2. Genetics plays a role and we should respond accordingly...as you described.
3. Addictive behavior parallels other addictive behavior and is but one aspect of the larger issue surrounding obesity in America.

Aikibu
10-28-2009, 01:02 PM
I
Keep your victimization. I'll answer to the bag of porkrinds I ate composing this response. This thread is starting to sound like a soapbox...It's only a matter of time till someone quotes one of the anti-food industry books in circulation (wait...I think that already happened.)

With all due respect it's only victimization if ones point of view is based on ignorance...

We call it..."Contempt prior to investigation" where I come from...

Enjoy your pork rinds...

William Hazen

C. David Henderson
10-28-2009, 01:19 PM
I'm not sure all the comments here are really about over-eating, as opposed to more general issues re. addiction or compulsive behavior.

That said, "addiction" can be and often does function as an excuse, particularly on the part of someone who has a problem with which they aren't ready to deal.

It's also, however, an explanation of behavior that points to particular coping mechanisms, and provides tools for taking real personal responsibility by understanding what may happen, for example, if one goes ahead and "lean[s] just a little [f]or just a splash to cool [one's] face."

I think taking responsibility for personal choices, as an idea, has to be connected to self-knowledge.

Like "addiction," "will power" can also be another set-up to continue self-destructive behavior.

YMMV

regards,

cdh

Ron Tisdale
10-28-2009, 03:43 PM
That's what I need...a wasps nest! :D :eek:

Best,
Ron
My wife smoked for years before we met. When we first moved in together we made a rule that there would be no smoking in our small 1 bedroom apartment. She had always talked about quitting but never did it.

We were on the 3rd floor and she would go out on the balcony to smoke. That summer we got a very aggressive wasp nest on the balcony. The apartment complex said they would remove it after the season because there was no way for a worker to get to it without being attacked. Just opening the sliding door got you stung.

Now she was faced with risking pain, or walking down 3 flights of stairs every single time she wanted to smoke. By the time fall came she had quit smoking.

She says she thinks about it now and then, but then she thinks about the stink, the effort, and the cost. That keeps her out of it. She has never smoked again, it's been well over 7 years. It worked out well for her because I had told her I would never marry a smoker. Maybe that was her twisted plan after all. ;-)

Rob Watson
10-28-2009, 07:41 PM
You completely ignore the physiological aspect of addiction morphology but most normal folks do... which is why "will power" seems like such a rational choice to them...


Not me. I only pointed out what I've seen in my goofy circle of friends and acquaintances being from a variety of walks of life all being afflicted with serious drug problems (I guess I should have mentioned all the fat folks, too). No particular rhyme or reason. The only real difference is the well to do background resulted in stealing from ones family while the less well off stole from whomever was nearby to feed their habits.

The well off folks also got more rehab but that didn't seem to do a danged thing.

Rob Watson
10-28-2009, 07:51 PM
Does having a high BMI as an Aikido reflect badly on Aikido, in a society that has constantly preferred thin over fat for about, around, a 200, and think is suppose to be healthier. Can society afford obese people, and thus, can Aikido afford it?

Bad grammer will (should) kill most topics.

Fat aikidoka won't be a problem for aikido. Folks doing bad aikido will be a problem for aikido. Bad folks doing aikido will be (is) a problem for aikido.

Although, fat people do roll better but thin folks bend better .. just stop short of spindle and mutilate...

DonMagee
10-28-2009, 08:17 PM
That's what I need...a wasps nest! :D :eek:

Best,
Ron

Either that or you could try to marry me LOL. :D

Ron Tisdale
10-29-2009, 11:42 AM
:D :eek: Uh, nah...PASS!!

Sides, my fiance would probably take it kind of personal... ;)

Best,
Ron

Kevin Leavitt
10-29-2009, 02:28 PM
I don't feel sorry for crack addicts. I already stated above that I discriminate against smokers. No one is forcing them to start, no one is forcing them to stop. But none of us should be paying for the burden they pose. I'm so sick of catering to people simply because they don't want to fix what is wrong with them. I'm also sick of this "it's a sickness" bullcrap. I know alcoholics, they drink because people allow it to be ok for them to drink. There is a reason people don't tend to seek help until they hit rock
bottom.

I'm all for helping people who want to change. I'll walk next to a friend who is honestly trying to lose weight, I'll encourage him to continue, I'll even hound him to keep his schedule. I would never stop anyone from bettering themselves. This is not about that.

This is about the idea that we should accept this and in fact support it. That they have a right to put this burden on us. That everyone should pay more or be inconvenienced because of the gluttony of a few others. And that is all it is, gluttony and lack of self control. I walk by a hundred candybars a day (I'm a daily shopper). I freaking love chocolate. I want to buy everyone one of them. I have to consciously NOT look just to make it though the line. I get really angry at my wife if she asks if we can buy one because I know it is a thin line for me. If you buy me a case of pepsi I'll drink it dry in a few days. I had to make a choice. Live healthy and not be diabetic, or say screw it, keep gaining weight, keep living on a diet of suger, keep having increasingly more health issues, and be a burden on those who I encounter on my day to day life.

I'm not superman. I have a bit of a belly. I'm 5'10" 175 pounds. I can grab a handful of belly. Depending on my ability to keep working out and to control my eating I can vary from 160 to 175, yet that is a far cry from the 200+ I was before I decided to stop.

It's not a illness, it's being lazy, a lack of willpower. No one can fix these people. They simply have to decide to fix themselves, and then have the desire to go though with it. This means the consequences for not doing it have to be greater then just accepting it. Suffering is the single greatest human motivator.

Damn Don...you and I are very similar in our approach to things! You have described me exactly.

I agree with you of course.

On the illness thing. Well I think that is a thin line as well. How do you define illness?

I think people are bombarded with information and subliminal messages daily. The mind/psycho/social process is an interesting thing.

I would stop short of saying that it is simply will power, it is true for many of us and I put myself in that category and I agree that alot of folks simply won't take responsibility for their own actions and need to learn to do that.

However, media and society are keenly aware of the fraility of the human mind and it is easy to fall prey to the pressures etc...so in a sense there are many people walking around out there that simply do not know how to gain control of their will power, and have real issues with emotional and psycological control and that I believe fits the definition of illness.

So the question we have is how do we fix it?

Some of it is education. Self Help, awareness, physical fitness...legislative changes, taxes, support groups...etc....etc...etc...

it depends on the individual each is different.

I think as budoka the best we can do is be the best we can be and do our job to educate our partners, set the example and help them if they are so inclined to seek it.

My MMA instructor was very candid with me about my weight issues and flat told me that if I didn't lose it I wasn't getting any better. Same with my Doc.

Yeah, I made all the excuses about BMI too as a big guy..but you know what....BMI is correct for me...I need to way about 190 lbs at 6'1". I am down to 205 from a high water mark of 240 at one point...and I carry 240 very well thank you!

However, at 240 and going on 45, I have High Blood Pressure, high triglycerides, Cholestrol...even though I am in better than average aerobic and anaerobic and over all physcial condition as a infantryman.

It still is not healthy for me and even though I can do all the things physically that I pretty much wanted or needed to do...I simply had to cut back on my eating.

It ain't easy, but it is the right thing to do and it is sort of a form of illness and I have had to make some adjustments mentally to get there.

Anyway, I think there is a lot more to this than just telling people to take personal responsibility and suck it up and stop making excuses...although that is a big part of it too!

Lorien Lowe
11-08-2009, 07:23 PM
I know plenty of crack heads and meth heads that are better educated and have had a much better upbringing than me (I think I got it pretty good). I don't feel sorry for them. I know plenty of crack/meth heads that had it much worse than me and I don't feel sorry for them either. They have brothers and sisters that are doing fine and are on a good track. It is complicated and it is simple. Some choose to avoid that junk and some choose to jump in with both feet.

I even know twin brothers (both college grads) ones a crack head and ones a tea tottler.One decided he likes crack and the other decided he likes track. What's different about them?

I went to visit my brother in San Francisco once for the New Year holiday; at one point, we went by a house where he used to live to meet some of his old friends. There was a pile of drugs on the table, and we were offered some; when my brother asked what it was, they said that it was meth, and that it 'makes you feel buzzed and keeps you awake, sort of like coffee.' I declined pretty strongly, and my brother did too (somewhat more politely) - but he later said that if I hadn't been there and so clearly against it, that he probably would have joined in just based on his friend's description of it. He had planned on spending the evening with these friends, and I pretty clearly ruined the bonhomme evening plans. This was 10-15 years ago, before people (or us, at least) had really heard a lot about it.

'like coffee.'

I didn't know what it was, either, and just declined based on the anti-drug propaganda that I'd received in school. He's ~4 years older than me - maybe he didn't get as strong of a dose of propaganda.

Janet Rosen
11-08-2009, 07:49 PM
they said that it was meth, and that it 'makes you feel buzzed and keeps you awake, sort of like coffee.' ...........This was 10-15 years ago, before people (or us, at least) had really heard a lot about it..

OT, sorry.....This makes me feel very very old.
I remember as a child, truck drivers and housewives popping whites in the 1960s, the former to keep driving and the latter to lose weight (then staying up all night washing the walls and floors...)
I remember in 1968 watching a guy on meth make a total jerk of himself one evening in a school playground (first time I ever saw a fistfight).
I remember in 1969 the buzz around the latest Cream album was that Ginger Baker was a speed freak and would be dead within six months.

Lorien Lowe
11-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Matthew Gano:
Everyone I've spoken to, from doctors to nutrition specialists, say the same thing: eat well and be active and your average person will not be obese.
So, all that said, could you point me to a good reference describing what you're talking about?

http://www.medpagetoday.com/PrimaryCare/ExerciseFitness/10290

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19857632?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=19

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809979?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=42

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19786526?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=55

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15997250

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16002825
(note: this abstract says that '20% of patients maintaining 10% weight loss after one year of dieting' means that dieting works - despite the simultaneous fact that 80% of dieters *do not* maintain 10% weight loss after 1 year).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kent-holtorf/long-term-weight-loss---m_b_192933.html

Joep Schuurkes:
Those surgeries aren't that successful in the long run either. They force people to eat less, but besides that, the eating and moving habits of the people who have them, stay the same. More long-term studies are needed to determine the success of the surgery

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050401/tips/19.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19890580?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19866235?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=12

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19763708?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=63

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19733513?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=76

I should have qualified that bariatric surgery is often the only successful route for people who are morbidly obese - who need to lose 30% or more of their body weight. Mere overweight or even mild obesity are more ammenable to diet and exercise programs, but even those are unsuccessful more often than not.

As far as genetics, that doesn't fly all by itself: if it were that simple, past generations of Americans (where our genes came from) would be just as fat as we are. One can just look at historical news footage and see that's just not true.

mathewjgano
11-08-2009, 09:57 PM
So, Lorien, would you say we agree? Reading the abstracts I didn't see anything which contradicted my quote you provided, and the article supported my notion that diets fail because people don't maintain them (nor the adequate exercise needed).
The prospective intervention trial highlighted the difficulty of maintaining weight loss as only 24.6% of participants achieved a 10% or more loss through two years, the researchers said. Because most people don't stick with an exercise regimen, increases in nonexercise activity and other changes are needed to solve the obesity epidemic, Warren G. Thompson, M.D., and James A. Levine, M.D., Ph.D., both of the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., said in an invited commentary.
To be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with the idea that bariatric surgery is successful. If you physically limit the amount of possible food intake, it stands to reason that weight will go down...again, seeming to reinforcing my view that weight is generally a function of intake vs. output.
Granted, it's been a while since I've done much with studies and I am a bit tired right now, so I may very well have misread something or missed a critical point made in the abstracts.

Rob Watson
11-09-2009, 12:56 PM
I didn't know what it was, either, and just declined based on the anti-drug propaganda that I'd received in school. He's ~4 years older than me - maybe he didn't get as strong of a dose of propaganda.

Propaganda? I suppose in a very limited and strict interpretation (that being the message is one sided "drugs are bad, m'kay?"). The message that uncontrolled use of illicit (that includes illegally obtained 'legal' ones) drugs will not improve your life is true. Call it propaganda if you like but if the message is true is it still propaganda?

Learn from others experience or learn on your own. I have learned by watching the lives of friends and loved ones being destroyed. Same with overeating ...

Lorien Lowe
11-09-2009, 06:40 PM
@ Robert:
I used the word 'propaganda' because my rejection of the drug was based on a knee-jerk, 'drugs = bad' feeling instilled in my by a government program, not on any actual knowledge of the substance or its effects. In that particular case, the reaction was ultimately good for me; however, I think that understanding is generally a better tool for people than automatic, blind, stimulus->response.

@ Matthew:
Of course weight loss ultimately = calories out > calories in. The problem is that we're programmed against that. The studies that I posted before demonstrate that diets tend to fail, despite the fact that people genuinely want to lose weight; that means that there's something going on besides the desire to lose weight. Think about it: it is easier to quit smoking than it is to lose 15% of your body mass and keep it off for five years. Doesn't that indicate a problem?
Here are some studies that look at why diets fail:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19723777?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=3
(pre-and post-natal overabundance of nutrients causes epigenetic changes that predispose offspring to obesity for the rest of their lives).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17260010?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=23
(Energy expenditure, specifically metabolic thermoregulation, decreases in dieting individuals to a degree that the calories saved by downregulation may compensate for the calories not consumed).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12403078?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=68
(differences in leptin sensitivity are associated with different weights)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19849800?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=26
(sleep deprivation decreases hormones that signal satiation and increases those that signal hunger).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19844081?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=45
(obese mice eat more, for longer, than lean mice after a fast; they show less hunger-dampening after increases in hormones that usually initiate satiation).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19822168?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=61
(hypothalamic inflammation is associated with both anorexia and leptin resistance; more study is needed).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19820018?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=63
(the intrauterine environment affects the future weight of offspring)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19732287?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=2
(leptin resistance has some adaptive functions; obesity-related leptin resistance (for example, during dieting) may be based on a formerly pro-adaptive function.

Ultimately, though, we still just don't know why this epidemic is occurring. If we did, we could do something more effective about it than telling people to 'eat less and exercise more,' which everyone already knows that they should do anyway. The 1% of the population that has enough will power to keep themselves from eating even when their body tells them that they're starving shouldn't convince you that a bias against those who can't lose weight or who keep on regaining it is justified.

and here's something interesting I found wrt. the BMI:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11319639?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=85

Rob Watson
11-09-2009, 07:04 PM
@ Robert:
I used the word 'propaganda' because my rejection of the drug was based on a knee-jerk, 'drugs = bad' feeling instilled in my by a government program, not on any actual knowledge of the substance or its effects. In that particular case, the reaction was ultimately good for me; however, I think that understanding is generally a better tool for people than automatic, blind, stimulus->response.

I got ya.In a sense all instruction is propaganda until we find another justification/verification besides 'teacher said so'. Some things just make too much sense to be doubted like smashing ones face with a hammer is a bad idea - don't need independant verification for that!

'Just say no' was way too late for me so I had to go on what my parents said and what I could see going on around me. Even then there was some independant verification going on ... some folks just gotta do things the hard way.

My momma always said to eat my veggies. It is very hard to eat 2000 calories a day of veggies and not feel completely full. The problem these days is most folks really don't eat much of the veg. Even when I was a bachelor I had a veggie garden and some fruit trees. Most of my life I can recall there being a garden and fresh veg. I still don't eat enough veg!

I lost over 40 lbs and all I did was stop eating ice cream (harder than it sounds) and stopped eating out so often. The next 20 lbs are going to take quite a bit more effort I dare say. Now, where did I put those veggies?

Kevin Leavitt
11-09-2009, 07:28 PM
Sure there are a multitude of reasons physical and mentally people have a hard time with weight. I am one of those that has to really work hard at it. I have a few friends that don't have to do anything at all.

For me though, I have to work hard at it, and it took some lifestyle changes, and it ain't easy, but I really want to live a while longer so I am trying to stay disciplined about it.

Life ain't fair for sure, and unfortunately, for the masses...it is a pretty simple equation that needs to be followed with a good does of self discipline, education and social support.

Buck
11-09-2009, 08:14 PM
Here is article on obesity and dementia, it is interesting and informative. Here is an excerpt:

"...obesity actually appeared to protect against dementia among people 65 and older in the prospective Cardiovascular Health Study, according to Annette L. Fitzpatrick, Ph.D., of the University of Washington, and colleagues in the March issue of Archives of Neurology.

But, writing in the same journal, researchers at the University of California San Francisco led by Alka M. Kanaya, M.D., reported that excess body fat significantly predicted worsening cognitive function over time in another prospective cohort -- though only in men.

In women, Dr. Kanaya and colleagues found a nonsignificant trend toward less cognitive decline with increasing adiposity."

FULL ARTICLE (http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/Dementia/13187?utm_source=mSpoke&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DailyHeadlines&utm_c article)

Lorien Lowe
11-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Just to be clear, I don't mean to give the impression that weight loss is impossible or that people shouldn't try; I just want to curtail the self-righteous disgust that many people (not necessarily here) display when talking about the overweight and obese.

The simple fact that the best way to lose, and keep off, significant amounts of weight is to cut out most or all of a major organ should give us an idea of how difficult this is for most people.

Kevin Leavitt
11-10-2009, 03:57 PM
Well if we were really serious about it, we would also be livid at what is acceptable for qualifiying for "Food" in this country (US).

I think alot of things have changed for the better..and I agree to some degree caveat emptor applies to everything.

But when people buy a can of Baked Beans, that is what they should get...Beans. Not half a can of beans and half a can of High Fructose Corn Syrup. Which really supports alot of the research you provided I am sure. that is, glucose level in the blood being jacked up all over the place etc.

The food industry has preyed on us to sell us a bunch of stuff..so much that we really believe that Crisco is, one "food" and two, superior to butter as a cooking ingredient!

Look at the history and etiology of how thing got into our pantries, become aware of it and then it really make you wonder.

I firmly believe that there is a alot that needs to be done to educate people, and to force people to become more aware of ALL the issues that affect them.

Sure it ain't easy, and there are people out there with medical and metabolic conditions.

They ain't being helped by society and industry for sure, and they don't have health care, they can't afford quality food, the are stressed out etc, etc...

So, I don't think I am making light of the situation at all, but you also have to be careful not to adopt a "victim mentality" either.

there is so much to over come that at some point the person has to make a choice. For some surgery is the option as they have reached such dangerous levels of morbid obesity that it is the "lesser of two evils", but I also am not a doctor so really I am out of my lane on diagnosis etc.

lbb
11-10-2009, 08:28 PM
Well if we were really serious about it, we would also be livid at what is acceptable for qualifiying for "Food" in this country (US).

...which makes me more and more glad that I live out in farm country, and have been learning how to grow my own. It's been quite an education -- uplifting and humbling all at once. I'm at the point where I'm incapable of not gardening.

I think alot of things have changed for the better..and I agree to some degree caveat emptor applies to everything.

But when people buy a can of Baked Beans, that is what they should get...Beans. Not half a can of beans and half a can of High Fructose Corn Syrup. Which really supports alot of the research you provided I am sure. that is, glucose level in the blood being jacked up all over the place etc.

The problem is, though, that there's almost no food -- and that includes HFCS -- that has no value whatsoever in any circumstances. It's not like toxins that are unambiguously bad for you. You can get widespread support for regulating a toxin out of the food supply, but when you try to remove or reduce HFCS or hydrogenated fat, you run up against resistance, because they're not instantly-drop-dead toxic and because in a few weird corner cases (like starving to death as an alternative), they are the "right" choice. So you'll never regulate them out of the food supply, and I'm afraid awareness and caveat emptor is all you're left with.

thisisnotreal
11-11-2009, 05:00 AM
Fat in Japan? You're breaking the law (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/japan/091109/fat-japan-youre-breaking-the-law)

Buck
11-11-2009, 08:03 PM
Fat in Japan? You're breaking the law (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/japan/091109/fat-japan-youre-breaking-the-law)

Well this leads to, thank God we live in the US! -Saluting Our Vets

The fitness,diet, drug and cigarette industries and companies are going to make big bank in Japan. See obesity in US and Japan costs money, it doesn't make money. Now if it made money, it would be ok.

brunotex
11-12-2009, 06:37 AM
Well this leads to, thank God we live in the US! -



We who?? Many people in this forum do not live in USA, and are really happy about it.
A little respect, please.

Marc Abrams
11-12-2009, 12:35 PM
We who?? Many people in this forum do not live in USA, and are really happy about it.
A little respect, please.

Bruno:

Evaluate the source that you are quoting. Please note that nobody has been directly responding to that person for obvious reasons. This person simply now responds to his own posts and/or starts new posts. Your sentiments are felt by many, which is why silence has been golden for people on this forum. People are intentionally NOT responding to this poster for many, many...... reasons.

Marc Abrams

brunotex
11-12-2009, 01:28 PM
Marc,

I don´t post much. My writing skills in English are not that good, but I come to Aikiweb everyday to read and learn.

I know what you are talking about regarding that person (I´ve read the other posts), and my post was mostly due to lack of coffee. When I read his post, I punched the table with my injured hand, and the pain made me angrier...lol...
But thanks for the advise anyway.

Sorry for the topic drift.

Bruno

Marc Abrams
11-12-2009, 02:29 PM
Marc,

I don´t post much. My writing skills in English are not that good, but I come to Aikiweb everyday to read and learn.

I know what you are talking about regarding that person (I´ve read the other posts), and my post was mostly due to lack of coffee. When I read his post, I punched the table with my injured hand, and the pain made me angrier...lol...
But thanks for the advise anyway.

Sorry for the topic drift.

Bruno

Bruno:

I feel your pain! Punching the wrong target never feels good and is definitely not the same good jolt that a good cup of coffee provides!

Take care of that hand.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Lorien Lowe
11-12-2009, 02:31 PM
Actually, obesity makes bank in the U.S. : the weight loss industry is worth 40 billion a year.

http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2008/03/the_diet_indust.html

Buck
11-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Bruno:

Evaluate the source that you are quoting. Please note that nobody has been directly responding to that person for obvious reasons. This person simply now responds to his own posts and/or starts new posts. Your sentiments are felt by many, which is why silence has been golden for people on this forum. People are intentionally NOT responding to this poster for many, many...... reasons.

Marc Abrams

I believe I started the thread...thanks for responding. :)

Buck
11-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Marc,

I don´t post much. My writing skills in English are not that good, but I come to Aikiweb everyday to read and learn.

I know what you are talking about regarding that person (I´ve read the other posts), and my post was mostly due to lack of coffee. When I read his post, I punched the table with my injured hand, and the pain made me angrier...lol...
But thanks for the advise anyway.

Sorry for the topic drift.

Bruno

Um...yea....

Buck
11-12-2009, 09:12 PM
We who?? Many people in this forum do not live in USA, and are really happy about it.
A little respect, please.

I don't know how to respond to this. I am not sure where you are coming from.

Our country is at war, well two wars. We have have had countless numbers of young men and women fight and die for our (my country's freedom) freedom from the days of the revolution, the War of 1812, Mexican-American war, Spanish-American war, WWI and WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom, and Iraq Freedom. When I posted that what insulted you, it was our Veteran's day and I was refering very clearly to honoring our vets.

I am proud of my country and am not ashamed to be an American. Nor am I ashamed of our vets, and I was saluting them, I was honoring them. Especially, all those who lost their lives at Fort Hood. Now, if my patriotism insults you, I will not apologize. And part of that patriotism is honoring those men and women who have died and continue to put their lives in danger. It is also honoring their families and loved ones.

If you are an American who is proud of our vets and future vets, whose only real reward they get is our recognition, gratitude, and pat on the back, then you recognize what "we" meant in my post.
You would have understood what "we" meant and it would have not angered you the least bit. With my explanation, I hope you will reconsider your feelings, and understand the importance of what "we" means to us. Even more so in the face of the Fort Hood attack that is another tragedy we experienced.

Buck
11-12-2009, 09:16 PM
Fat in Japan? You're breaking the law (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/japan/091109/fat-japan-youre-breaking-the-law)

I am also sure it will be a boost to their economy. I wonder if they target drinking as a health issue, wonder if a law against drinking was ever considered? Naw, they can tax booze. But they can't tax fat. And they sure enough can force people to lose weight, but not stop drinking, or even smoking. Crazy.

Buck
11-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Brono,

You might feel more at ease in the Foreign Language Forum. :)

Kevin Leavitt
11-12-2009, 11:23 PM
Buck wrote:

f you are an American who is proud of our vets and future vets, whose only real reward they get is our recognition, gratitude, and pat on the back, then you recognize what "we" meant in my post.
You would have understood what "we" meant and it would have not angered you the least bit. With my explanation, I hope you will reconsider your feelings, and understand the importance of what "we" means to us. Even more so in the face of the Fort Hood attack that is another tragedy we experienced

Well speaking as a service member and as a Veteran...even this is kinda patronizing and slightly offensive. "only reward we get is a pat on the back and your gratitude?"

Wow, gee thanks!

No, my reward is serving along side my fellow service members and seeing the faces of the kids and people that I have gotten to help along the way.

I do appreciate a wave, smile, or a thank you as much as the next person...but don't think for a minute that I/we that is what we live for and the only thing we get.

Janet Rosen
11-13-2009, 12:19 AM
Criminy, talk about topic drift. To all non-Americans reading this thread, please rest assured Mr Burgess does not speak for all of us. NOW CAN WE STAY ON TOPIC?

Kevin Leavitt
11-13-2009, 04:46 AM
Sorry Janet!

Buck
11-13-2009, 07:15 AM
Buck wrote:

Well speaking as a service member and as a Veteran...even this is kinda patronizing and slightly offensive. "only reward we get is a pat on the back and your gratitude?"

Wow, gee thanks!

No, my reward is serving along side my fellow service members and seeing the faces of the kids and people that I have gotten to help along the way.

I do appreciate a wave, smile, or a thank you as much as the next person...but don't think for a minute that I/we that is what we live for and the only thing we get.

Your right, a salute and a show of gratitude (as I said before) isn't appreciated by you specifically- I understand. And that is my point. It should be more of a show of appreciation for our military. It's great to have that feeling from people but it doesn't make a living, or get the proper medical and health care. But sadly, that is what it has come to. :(

Am sorry, Kevin, I forgot to put in a wave and warm smile, specifically for you. Sorry I offend you for not including that.

The bigger picture is we don't take care of our vets like we should. We say thanks, but that is all we do. And that is a sad state of affairs. So when I salute them, I do with that in my heart.

Buck
11-13-2009, 07:18 AM
Criminy, talk about topic drift. To all non-Americans reading this thread, please rest assured Mr Burgess does not speak for all of us. NOW CAN WE STAY ON TOPIC?
Thank you for stopping the thread drift.
Janet, your right and that should be taken in consideration for all of us, no matter where we come from. So that is why I firmly speak for myself. :)

Kevin Leavitt
11-13-2009, 07:49 AM
No problem Buck...thanks for the thoughts!

thisisnotreal
11-02-2010, 11:11 PM
Fat in Japan? You're breaking the law (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/japan/091109/fat-japan-youre-breaking-the-law)

cnn piece on this; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1hqHo6lyUU&feature=player_embedded#!

33" waist is the max permissible. I may have to have my torso removed to achieve weight restrictions..

Mary Eastland
11-18-2010, 09:46 AM
Aikido feels better to me when I weigh what I am supposed to. I do believe that addiction is a disease and that changed attitudes can aid recovery. Such rigid thinking about addictive problems can be harmful. For me the bottom line is taking care of myself and helping if asked. I really like the K.D. Lang poem.

lbb
11-18-2010, 04:20 PM
This thread tasted so good the first time around, let's be having the leftovers? Is that the idea?