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kenshi07
10-23-2009, 11:17 AM
Ok so when I began Aikido about 2 1/2 years ago I think I hurt my shoulder, rolling wrong or something. I had a orthopedic guy tell me it was bursitis, and wanted to give me a cortisone shot. I opted out and just took a break. After that, due too school, I had to take about 9 months off and now I'm back at it. Two practices ago I screwed up a forward roll and drove my shoulder straight into the mat, had to go home and ice it. So I had practice last night and was able to do front and back rolls ok, but I woke up with a dull ache in the same shoulder. Has anyone else experienced this kind of injury or know of something that could help? BTW, I'm just a 6th kyu, and just doing rolls from kneeling. Thank you.

lbb
10-23-2009, 11:46 AM
Nobody's going to be able to diagnose that over the internet. You need to see an orthopedist who specializes in sportsmedicine. He/she will want to know your history, but I wouldn't assume that it has anything to do with your current injury.

ninjaqutie
10-23-2009, 12:22 PM
Sorry to hear about that. My advice is to see a specialist to get it checked out. In the mean time, take it easy. You may want to put something on it (heat, icy hot, tiger balm, etc) Hot showers seem to do my shoulder good (I have a shoulder issue, but not from aikido) and try sleeping with that arm and shoulder under the covers. Sometimes I wake up feeling sore in that shoulder if it is chilly at night. If I keep it under the covers, it can be chilly, but my body heat keeps it warm enough that it doesn't ache when I wake up the next morning.

Good luck.

Keith Larman
10-23-2009, 12:22 PM
Should injuries can be really difficult to diagnose in person. So let me just second Mary's post. If I were in your shoes I'd take something like ibuprofen/alleve for inflammation, ice it, and rest it for a few days. Being a complex joint it is easy to get minor injuries. But, if the pain doesn't get better after a few days of rest, go see a doctor.

Pauliina Lievonen
10-23-2009, 12:30 PM
Skip the ibuprofen unless you're in unbearable pain, it takes away the pain but also slows down healing.

kvaak
Pauliina

Erick Mead
10-23-2009, 12:50 PM
Skip the ibuprofen unless you're in unbearable pain, it takes away the pain but also slows down healing.

kvaak
PauliinaAmen to that -- and see the orthopod.. I had an incipient rotator tear some years ago. It was not healing at all with periodic ibuprofen but with four or five months or so of glucosamine resolved beautifully. I discovered that glucosamine production in the body drops off as your epiphyseal bone stops growing, and therefore you have less of it to repair worn or damaged cartilage in the body. So -- a good nutritional supplement to help with most of the "creaks and groans" after the mid- thirties or so -- but make sure there is no overt injury that needs fixing first.

Voitokas
10-23-2009, 01:30 PM
I agree with Mary too, about going to the doctor. And I'd add some further caution: if there's something about your body or the way that you're rolling that may stress something in your shoulder, then you should maybe not do any rolling until you get your shoulder looked at. I'm sure your sensei would understand. Also, if you have a stiff lower back or something that you think might be hindering your rolls, you might ask the orthopedist to take a look at that too.. Good luck!

ninjaqutie
10-23-2009, 03:14 PM
Not that I am trying to sell anything, but there is a product out there called regenicare by univera that helps aid in upping repair and lowering damage in the joints. Both my husband and sensei are using it because they have knee problems (as well as other joint issues). My sensei has very bad knees and wasn't able to do much suwariwaza. He even got special injections (not corizone) that are supposed to help him regenerate something or other. After a few weeks of taking it, he was able to do suwariwaza more frequently. :)

Something like this could also help your shoulder as well (provided you aren't allergic to shellfish and your religion allows it), but I still have to stick to what I said earlier and to what the others have said. Rest and a trip to the specialist (or doctor first if that is how your insurance works) is in order!

aikidoc
10-23-2009, 06:51 PM
See someone. Could be a ligamentous tear (separation), muscle tear (cuff tear), shoulder impingement, bursitis, tendonitis. Sounds like someone needs to work with you on your form before you break a collar bone or tear something seriously.

Janet Rosen
10-23-2009, 10:06 PM
In general, the most common newbie forward rolling shoulder injury is a separation, which is really a tear of the connection between the collarbone and the front of the scapula. This can and should be properly diagnosed. I've never seen or known a newbie who did a bad enough one to need surgery BUT lots of newbies don't allow them enough time to heal properly.
And yes, diving into or falling onto the shoulder is something that needs to be remediated as soon as the doc clears you for return to training. If your instructor cannot teach you to slowly progress in your rolls in a way that avoids this, you might want to find another instructor.

kenshi07
10-24-2009, 02:18 AM
Thanks alot to everyone for their input. I've actually started taking glucosamine and it seems to be helping a bit, but I'm also going to look into seeing a doc about it. I'll try to keep everything you guys have said in my head. Thanks again!

Janet Rosen
10-24-2009, 08:49 AM
Not that I am trying to sell anything, but there is a product out there called regenicare by univera that helps aid in upping repair and lowering damage in the joints.
(health professional mode on and trying really hard not to sigh but not succeeding)
1. There is a huge difference between acute injuries that need to rest and heal, such as the OP, and osteoarthritis with a loss of cartilage which is what seems to be described in Ashley's post since that's what the injections are used for.
2. There is NO EVIDENCE that glucosamine will help an acute injury. It's one demonstrated use is in chronic knee pain due to osteoarthritis.

ninjaqutie
10-24-2009, 05:32 PM
Janet, first let me say that I know the difference between an acute injury and a chronic injury and obviously, I realize that Tannan and my sensei have two completely different injuries.

The beginning post was a bit vague, but it sounded to me like this may have been going on a while since they mentioned a previous injury (they didn't really say if it healed or not though). As far as the product goes, it isn't geared towards one thing (acute, chronic, mild, sever, etc). It just happens to work on some people with severe and/or chronic cases and it happens to work on some people with mild and/or acute injuries.

The main side effects people seem to notice is joint comfort and mobility because inflammation goes down, the other products can get in there and do their job.

I did not say "skip the rest and the visit to the doctor". In fact, I said that those are the first things that should be done.

Janet Rosen
10-24-2009, 06:17 PM
The main side effects people seem to notice is joint comfort and mobility because inflammation goes down, the other products can get in there and do their job.

to pick one source sort of at random, http://www.icnr.com/GlucosamineSulfate/GlucosamineSulfate.html

"The main physiological function of glucosamine on joints is to stimulate the manufacture of cartilage components as well as promote the incorporation of sulfur into cartilage. In other words, glucosamine is not only responsible for stimulating the manufacture of substances necessary for proper joint function, it also is responsible for stimulating joint repair.
...Numerous double-blind studies have shown glucosamine sulfate to produce much better results compared to NSAIDs and placebos in relieving the pain and inflammation associated with osteoarthritis. This is despite the fact that glucosamine sulfate exhibits very little direct anti-inflammatory effect and no direct analgesic or pain relieving effects.7-13"

I stand by my statement, it has proved efffective in studies - much more so than placebo - where cartilage loss is the cause of pain. It fares no better than placebo elsewhere. This is not to say it won't help elsewhere - the placebo affect is REAL - but glucosamine can be a pretty expensive placebo.

ninjaqutie
10-24-2009, 10:01 PM
I have not said that loss of cartilage is the reason for this persons pain. I also never stated that glucosamine should be taken to help this injury. The OP is the one that said they have been taking the glucosamine and stated they are feeling better from it (whether it is a placebo or not).

And even if this is an acute injury, it doesn't mean that there won't be long term side effects whether it be pain or discomfort that couldn't be addressed by taking supplements (of whatever type is determined to be appropriate). Even if someone isn't in discomfort or pain, taking supplements (such as glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, etc. isn't neccessarily a bad thing for everyone depending on their health, needs and lifestyle.

lbb
10-25-2009, 10:05 AM
And even if this is an acute injury, it doesn't mean that there won't be long term side effects whether it be pain or discomfort that couldn't be addressed by taking supplements (of whatever type is determined to be appropriate). Even if someone isn't in discomfort or pain, taking supplements (such as glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, etc. isn't neccessarily a bad thing for everyone depending on their health, needs and lifestyle.

I don't think that's really the kind of help OP is looking for, though. He's got an issue, he needs a diagnosis and a plan of action that consists of specific remedies for his specific problem. "Hey, it can't hurt" supplements don't seem like the best line of attack in this case.

Rob Watson
10-25-2009, 02:23 PM
For those who (like me) don't particularly like going to the Dr. for a proper diagnosis I have found the book "listen to your pain" (ISBN-13: 978-0143111955) helpful in self-diagnosis (nothing is better than a competent physician but this is better than rumor and innuendo).

Not to mention a reduction in inflammation is a long way from repaired cartilage (which can take a year or more to heal - barring recurrent injury). Being better than NSAID and placebo does not mean it is really much good at all. Also osteoarthritis is a long way from typical joint pain or injury from impact sports.

FYI from the referenced study "Obesity is associated with a significant shift from good to fair. This finding may indicate that higher dosages may be required for obese individuals or that oral glucosamine is not enough to counteract the stress of obesity on the joints." It also may indicate higher doses have no effect in this case.

The purity of off the shelf glucosamine sulfate preparations are complelely uncontrolled in the US. The only real suppliment in the US suppliments market are the coffers of the industry. Be informed or be impoverished.

Thanks

ninjaqutie
10-25-2009, 06:48 PM
He's got an issue, he needs a diagnosis and a plan of action that consists of specific remedies for his specific problem.

I can agree with you on this. :D

Adam Huss
10-26-2009, 02:16 PM
Well I'll just say good luck with your injury and I hope everything works out with you! Not much else I can say other than that. Having a Marine background, I would normally take Vitamin M (aka motrin) and hope it goes away...but I'm 27 and have a bad lower back and shoulders...so probably not the best idea to heed that advice.
cheers!

Janet Rosen
10-26-2009, 02:39 PM
I would normally take Vitamin M (aka motrin) and hope it goes away...
:-)
Adam, there is a growing body of evidence that motrin and similar meds actually do more harm than good in injury...

aikidoc
10-26-2009, 06:56 PM
With chronic inflammation, I have found a combination of glucosamine (for cartilage health) plus boswellic acids (5-Loxin) found in Osteo-biflex and fish oils. The latter 2 are anti-inflammatory in their properties (plus stay off the red meat and heavy carbs-pro inflammatory). Not an immediate solution but I have seen it work as well as celebrex for chronic arthritis even with a little rheumatoid. It's an ongoing treatment. I agree with Janet, ibuprofen can be counter productive if used very long.

Lyle Laizure
10-26-2009, 08:48 PM
Tannan, I don't know that you need to see a specialist, but perhaps your general pratictioner doctor. Here's what I know. I have had trouble with both shoulders, one of which I landed squarely on during a forward roll. For this injury I went tot he emergency room because I could not move my arm at all. With my other shoulder when I saw my doc, he rotated it around and asked the following questions...is there pain when you move it and does it "catch" anywhere. While there is some pain there was no "catching" in the joine and his adivce was to ice it, ibuprofen and take your time warming up so the joint is warmed up. I injured my knee a short time ago and again I saw my general practioner doc and again it was ice it, ibuprofin. My knee was really sore. I think it really depends on the pain.

The ibuprofin will keep the swelling down so it heals faster. If you are unsure see the doctor.

aikidoc
10-26-2009, 10:34 PM
As Janet pointed out, ibuprofen and other NSAIDs may actually interfere with healing when used too long (see medical literature such as Medscape). It does nothing for swelling other than control inflammation which leads to swelling. Ice will help with swelling, as does elevation, and compression. General practitioners are generally not good bone and joint docs. They simply have different training. Orthopedists are the bone and joint docs from a drugs and surgical perspective. Chiropractors and physical therapists have considerable training in conservative management.

Rest, ice, compression and elevation are recommended for acute injuries with swelling. If it does not improve in 2 weeks you need to see someone to rule out a more serious injury.

Janet Rosen
10-27-2009, 12:21 AM
Rest, ice, compression and elevation are recommended for acute injuries with swelling. If it does not improve in 2 weeks you need to see someone to rule out a more serious injury.
As usual, you and I are tag teaming here :-)
I'd add....it should definitely be improving that fast....but it will not actually HEAL that fast. Doc Wendy once did a long posting about the cellular process involved with soft tissue damage and repair and the key point I took away was you can't cut it much below 6 - 8 weeks. NOT to say you shouldn't train at all for that long, but that prudence dictates a slow return to full tilt training to allow for rest and healing so the acute doesn't become chronic.

aikidoc
10-27-2009, 08:43 AM
Thanks for clarifying that-a torn muscle takes 6-8 weeks to fully heal. Torn ligaments and tendons longer due to less blood supply. My 2 week comment was meant to indicate improvement only, not healing. If home treatment is not working, something more serious may be indicated and will need professional intervention.

Keith Larman
10-27-2009, 09:58 AM
Interesting discussion...

Just to go back to what I said originally...

I recently had a long lunch with a number of people who were discussing it. 2 physicians, 1 physical therapist, and one orthopod (the wife is in the medical field so I often find myself being virtually dissected by friends as I'm often a walking injury-fest). So yet again I was the topic of conversation. They got much into the same discussion about NSAIDs but they were pretty clear there isn't a "absolutely don't" vs. "absolutely do" issue here. So I asked the question "well, say I take a slightly odd fall on my shoulder (something I've done before) and get up the next day sore and stiff. They had no problem there with a day or two of NSAID's in that sort of situation. The idea here is to help assist the ice, rest, etc. in getting the swelling down to help out with the initial healing process and for the more relevant (it seemed to me) reason that they reduce discomfort. If in a few days it wasn't getting better, well, stop the NSAID's anyway as they are of diminishing value (to the point of possibly hindering eventually). Then it's off to see the doctor to see if there was a more significant injury. Their concern appeared to be that they didn't want me taking them all the time as a matter of course even if I have chronic problems (which I do). But they also felt that they can serve a useful purpose when taken appropriately.

Not trying to influence anyone one direction or the other -- I'm just a dumb sword polisher with an expensive Liberal Arts education (sorry, mom and dad). Just passing along a recent conversation. And being anecdotal and second hand knowledge and all that it won't hold up in a formal debate, so there you go... :)

kenshi07
11-02-2009, 09:30 PM
Once again, thanks alot to everyone for their input. I had to take a week or so off because I got pretty sick, and I think it's given my shoulder a great opportunity for rest. I plan to get back at it on either Thursday or Saturday, still trying to get some crap out of my chest. Thanks so much!

heathererandolph
11-03-2009, 12:56 PM
I suggest some stretches before class, maybe since you have not done Aikido in awhile your muscles are tense & not used to this activity. Make sure your rolls are correct, get together with someone senior to watch you. Last time I had problems with my shoulders, I'm pretty sure it had something to do with lifting weights. My shoulder hurt a lot and I couldn't do anythhing, but the pain did go away in a couple days. I did take ibupropen at the time. You may be able to do some exercises to strengthen your shoulder muscles which the doctor can direct you to do. Remember, when you go back to class, take it easy!

Janet Rosen
11-03-2009, 01:57 PM
Once again, a reminder that stretching before a workout has no proven benefit. It is warming range of motion that is of benefit prior to a workout.

Lyle Laizure
11-04-2009, 08:35 PM
A few shots of sake will help warm the body for training. :)

mathewjgano
11-04-2009, 11:54 PM
And being anecdotal and second hand knowledge and all that it won't hold up in a formal debate, so there you go... :)

Sometimes it's nice just to be a bit more conversational. I enjoyed it, for what it's worth.