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colinlam
04-02-2002, 07:18 PM
Hello all.

Training last nite had me thinking and I would like everyone to share their opinions.

I had a hell of a day during work yesterday (yeah, facing a computer monitor 8 hours straight isn't fun at all). Was dead tired and went to dojo to train. I don't know it is fatigue or whatever, I just couldn't concentrate enough to perform any kata! I was like a complete beginner all over again (I have less than a year of experience in Aikido), even my sensei could see it.

Should I stay at home and rest last nite? Or should I go to dojo and train? do you have any similar experience?

Cheers,

Colin Lam

Largo
04-02-2002, 08:13 PM
Take this (like all internet info) with a grain of salt.

I'd say go to training anyways. Firstly, you have the martial aspect (i.e. self defense situations seem to take place at night when you're tired, drunk, asleep, etc). Testing yourself at times like this can also show how deeply something has been ingrained in your system.
Secondly, I would also look at it from a lifestyle point of view. Times when I have skipped training because (tired, classes, work, etc) it starts to form a habit. i.e. it gets easier and easier to say, "I'm too (fill in the blank) today, so I won't get anything out of training..." Some of the best training I've done has come during times I really really wanted to skip. We tend to be creatures of habit after all.
Of course, if you're seriously exhausted or ill, take a break. Don't be the idiot training with the flu (it's really not fun...I've been that idiot waaaay too many times). In the end, you know you better than anybody.

Chris Li
04-02-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by colinlam
Should I stay at home and rest last nite? Or should I go to dojo and train? do you have any similar experience?

Whenever I told my first instructor that I was tired he'd say something like "Well, you're supposed to be able to do it when you're tired".

Pretty hard to tell the bad guys you had a hard day at work :).

Best,

Chris

Jorx
04-03-2002, 02:10 AM
Hello

I don't know if it is for you but I always go to the training when I feel crappy (physically or mentally or both... I mean not ILL of course but tired). And then I usually follow the following reciepe:

Step 1: I take the warm up a little easier than usually and do what suits me at the moment.
Step 2: I pair up with someone of whom I know I can work softly.
Step 3: Work softly...
Step 4: Still work softly but ask your partner to throw You around like a rag doll.

After completing these 4 steps I usually feel much better. If (hardly ever actually) not, then I leave after step 3 and am probably ill.

When I do feel better then I follow to:
Step 5: Normal training.
Step 6: Hyperactive training.
And sometimes even:
Step 7: Special uke session for the sensei after the actual lesson. (trying to get the enlightenment/blend with the Earth/Universe by letting myself throw at it at very high speeds) :D

If it goes this then it is the final step/condition: being half dead but feeling helluva good and maybe even really fresh for mental work.

It's not a competition what you shouldn't do if not in shape... it's something that will get you in shape... But do it as it suits you in the current condition... work as slowly and as softly as you feel like. Aikido should never be forced if you don't feel like forcing it:)

Jorgen
Estonian Aikikai

Bronson
04-03-2002, 02:33 AM
A karate sensei I know says you're only as good as your worst day.

From Dave Lowry's "Sword and Brush" pg. 112

SHUGYO: AUSTERITY
Too early in the morning? Get up and train. Cold and wet ouside? Go train. Tired? Weary of the whole journey and longing just for a moment to stop and rest? Train. Continue on in the spirit of perserverance-this is the advice for the bugeisha who reaches an obstacle in the Way, as surely he will...

Bronson

ChrisDuSCAMB
04-03-2002, 04:36 AM
Hi all,

Sometimes after a hard work day, I am very tired and I must push myself for going to the training (it is so much easy to tell that your bed is better than the mats for sleeping :rolleyes: ). But when I am going to the mats and start the preparation, all the tiredness have died out and often I am so well that I can't sleep, the fatigue is not here, I am very well.

But you musn't overestimate your capabilities. There is three weeks ago,ther was a meeting. But the preceding night, I was going to a friend's party, and I come back home about 2 or 3 hours am. And so I slept only 4 hours before the meeting.
The wake up was very difficult but I said: "It is not a problem, I am tired but as usually, I will found all my capabilities on the mat"). Unlucky, I stayed very tired, with no good concentration, I was on other "planet". I served as Uke with a very weight man on Yonkyo. I didn't follow the movement, I fell on the mat very hardly, result of my stupidity, 2 shoulders dislocated and 3 weeks of break. I am very disapointed but it was my fault, i overestimate my capabilities.

Bye,

Lyle Bogin
04-03-2002, 08:53 AM
The idea that training no matter how you feel is very romantic. However it tends to lead to injury and illness. You have to learn when you are simply tired, and when you are exhausted. When you are just a bit under the weather, or when you are approaching real illness, when you can go to the dojo to train, or when you should simply train at home.

This rule of "always train" is dangerous and often self destructive. If you cannot focus, you endanger yourself and your partner.

Somehow the idea of resting has become associated with weaknes or straying from the true path of budo. But in my experience, it is often harder (and more neccessary) to rest than to train.

Brian Vickery
04-03-2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by colinlam

...Was dead tired and went to dojo to train. I don't know it is fatigue or whatever, I just couldn't concentrate enough to perform any kata! ...

Colin Lam

Hello Colin,

Well, IMHO, you have to be the one to judge how tired/fatigued you are in determining whether or not you are able to safely participate in class.

Lyle Bogin brought up some very good points to consider, particularly concerning injuries caused by practicing while tired or fatigued. Here's a really good article posted on the Aikido Journal site focusing on this very topic:

Aikido and Injuries: Special Report
http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/_article.asp?ArticleID=497

The article covers serious & fatal injuries caused during aikido practice. I'd encourage all aikidoka to read it, especially instructors. The theme of tired/fatigued/exhausted ukes comes up in the article and is a driving factor in the occurance of these injuries.

..that's just my 2 cents worth!

Jorx
04-03-2002, 12:39 PM
Isn't that the beauty of Aikido that you can do it almost in whatever shape? I mean if you can find a partner who is willing to accept that you are feeling crappy then everything is okay. And I personally haven't seen one sensei who would FORCE someone two work harder if they explain why they can't. And if u regulate it in this way there's no (or at least very minimized) danger of neither illness nor injury...

Jorgen

colinlam
04-03-2002, 06:45 PM
Thank you guys for all of your input. Maybe I have to reschedule my training a bit ... you see I have Iaido training on Monday and Wednesday and Aikido on Tuesday and Satuarday. Probably my body still cannot hack the intensity of these trainings .. ha ha who knows.

Talking about injury, luckily I have caused / been injuried yet *touching wood* but I've been neck-locked till I nearly fainted *why I know cos I was losing my vision* ... that was scary ...

Chocolateuke
04-03-2002, 10:40 PM
um I forgot the topic sorry ow.... looks back at topic.... yeah basically sumes up yesterday to for me to except I was able to go to sleep after :)

Bruce Baker
04-04-2002, 06:50 AM
You can smack the back of your neck like the boxing trainer does to a boxer? If that awakens you to full concious vigor then go ahead and train, if not .. sit out the class. You will be a danger to yourself and others.

If you are falling asleep driving, go home and sleep. You need a nap. You ain't got enough vitamins to get past eight hours of work. If you ain't stretched and wiggled enough to keep the blood flowing ... your body will go to sleep as well as your mind. An even bigger danger.

There is nothing I hate as much as being seated for long periods of time. Even now, as I write this, I am continually stretching, wiggling, tensing muscles ... trying to keep from atrophing from lack of working out because of my Meniere's disability. The old saying, "That man/woman never sits still ..." is quite appropo to keeping physically / mentally awake ... with proper diet that might change?

If you check out diet, you will find foods that put you to sleep, and foods that give you energy? Maybe getting that energy is as simple as getting your proper nutrients / vitamins from these foods? Check it out.

But if you are fatigued from burnout? Get some rest, or watch the class. Injurys really are the worst enemy of training, not just for the injured, but the poor partner who injures you, too.

How many of you have a notebook?
Did you know the human mind relearns quicker and quicker, the third/fourth time, even when memory fails years later? Notes or notebooks.

Amendes
05-03-2002, 11:10 PM
I went to friday class once when I was so sick that I was having trouble standing. I just made sure I worked with only the one senior who seemd to have the same thing I had.

Aynway I refussed to do partner work with the JO because i wasent all there in my head but I still went, and I have no regrests I went.

After I went home I stayed in bed for 2 days because I wasent able to get out and stay out. Then on monday I got up went to school and then back to Aikido.

Of course it turned out I had bronchatis.
Im sure that if I knew that if I had that I woulda atlest watched class from the bench.

But there is no way Id miss a class.

Then again im one of thosse addicted to aikido people who would live in the Dojo if presented the oppurtonity. And no we don't have a Ushedashi program. I here the one at Nikkon Kan is nice and I will be applying to their soon. Cheers,

Andrew

PeterR
05-03-2002, 11:45 PM
If your sick and contagious there is no way you should be on the mat - if not for your health than the others. That goes for both you and your sempai - germs travel and even if only two were exposed neither he nor you needed a dose of something else.

Not impressed.

Originally posted by Amendes
I went to friday class once when I was so sick that I was having trouble standing. I just made sure I worked with only the one senior who seemd to have the same thing I had.

Aynway I refussed to do partner work with the JO because i wasent all there in my head but I still went, and I have no regrests I went.

After I went home I stayed in bed for 2 days because I wasent able to get out and stay out. Then on monday I got up went to school and then back to Aikido.

Of course it turned out I had bronchatis.
Im sure that if I knew that if I had that I woulda atlest watched class from the bench.

But there is no way Id miss a class.

Then again im one of thosse addicted to aikido people who would live in the Dojo if presented the oppurtonity. And no we don't have a Ushedashi program. I here the one at Nikkon Kan is nice and I will be applying to their soon. Cheers,

Andrew

warriorwoman
05-06-2002, 05:47 PM
In general, unless you are ill and contagious, then I would recommend that you attend class. If you are relaxing like you are supposed to (not tensing up to do ukemi, etc.)and you are doing your taisabaki properly, then you should feel re-energized rather than fatigued after class.
janet dtantirojanarat
www.warriorwoman.org

gadsmf@aol.com
05-13-2002, 07:34 PM
I work nights so i'm tired most of the time.
The problem for me is not the training but motivating myself to get to the dojo when I could be having a few extra hours of sleep.
The training itself usually invigorates me, providided I'm working with people with good ki, (which is the majority of students at my dojo).
One thing I've noticed though; if I'm very tired my ukemi gets worse, more so than any other aspect of my Aikido. You'd think falling over would be easier when you're tired!

Diablo
05-13-2002, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
(snipped out)

If you check out diet, you will find foods that put you to sleep, and foods that give you energy? Maybe getting that energy is as simple as getting your proper nutrients / vitamins from these foods? Check it out.



I agree with Bruce in that sometimes it's your diet that can put you to sleep. I found that eating a chocolate candybar before training can slow me down. I have found that sometimes I have to drink an energy drink before training or I get wore out. Does anybody have any recommendations to enhance endurance? I am pressed for time, so running is out of the question. Someone recommended jumping rope because it uses more of your lungs and muscles than push-ups or sit-ups.
Any suggestions, or is jumping rope a good idea? (low impact aerobics?)

It's all about connection.
Diablo

Chris Li
05-13-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Diablo


I agree with Bruce in that sometimes it's your diet that can put you to sleep. I found that eating a chocolate candybar before training can slow me down. I have found that sometimes I have to drink an energy drink before training or I get wore out. Does anybody have any recommendations to enhance endurance? I am pressed for time, so running is out of the question. Someone recommended jumping rope because it uses more of your lungs and muscles than push-ups or sit-ups.
Any suggestions, or is jumping rope a good idea? (low impact aerobics?)

It's all about connection.
Diablo

Jumping rope is great, but the repetitive impact can be hard on your legs sometimes. If you're short of time try some interval training (HIIT).

Best,

Chris

Abasan
05-13-2002, 10:15 PM
If you're planning on jumping rope, you shouldn't jump straight up and down which is bad for the heart. Instead you should jump a bit forwards/backwards or sideways.

At least that's what I heard the trainer said in Ali. (Awesome show! But I think BBC's video history of all his matches was much better).

Also, maybe you should try complex carbs 2 hours before aikido. Quick fixes like energy drinks and candy bars.... may not be so good in the long run.

batemanb
05-17-2002, 01:19 AM
Colin,

I too sit in front of a computer screen for about 10 hours a day, couple that with fighting through the Tokyo metro system to and from work, I know exactly how you feel at the end of the day. I find that if I can just sit and relax for 10 minutes before leaving for the dojo (not always possible with a 2 year old running around and only 20 minutes between getting home and leaving for practice), it is more than enough to charge up again.

I agree with other posters here too, even if I am not charged up, I will still make the effort to go training, it is too easy to fall into the "I`m not going tonight because????" routine, and very difficult to get out of it again (found that out in my first years training when I realised I hadn`t been for 6 weeks).

For what it`s worth, I usually find that the fatigue disappears after the warm up routine. If it doesn`t, I train at a slower pace, which is often better because I am more relaxed. If only the body would adopt that every time I trained.

Just my 2 yen

SeiserL
05-17-2002, 08:07 AM
Like many here, IMHO, I favor staying in the habit of training. Train sensible, but train. I call them the "spirtual" days because I didn't get whatever it was that I was supposed to get, but I least I showed up and was avaiable. They are the days I don't train as hard physically, but then again, its training in not taking myself too seriously or personally.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD