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Rob Watson
10-18-2009, 01:09 PM
What I love about these arguments is listening to people who think of themselves as rational, logical beings ignore the possibility of gaining empirical experience because there is no "scientific" explanation for something. There is no scientific explanation because no one has taken the time or spent the money to study these things. However, there is descriptive terminology that has existed for hundreds of years. There are people who can teach these skills. They can demonstrate these skills. So what are folks waiting for? A grant from the NIH? These discussions between the folks that know and the folks that have no clue are ridiculous.

You think its BS, get on the mat with one of these folks. If you think you can do what they are talking about, show people you can. But sitting back and questioning everything in a discussion when you have absolutely no direct experience of it is ridiculous.

I have trained in Aikido most of my adult life. I have met people from outside of the art who have skills which very few, if any, Aikido people posses, and I have trained with many of the best. So I don't particularly care if there is "scientific" explanation. I want someone to teach me how to do it , how to train it, and I'll be happy to develop my own descriptive terminology for it all. I don't care if it's scientific, I just care if I can get others to do it once I understand it.

Being one of those folks of a scientific bent I feel compelled to reply (just not in the original thread). Not to mention I'll take some of the blame as I certainly have been calling for a more rational explanation - I've contributed to this issue.

First off I totally agree with everything in the quote above. Thanks Mr. Ledyard for encapsulating the issue. First hand observation (a.k.a. IHTBF) stands as the basis of observable phenomena upon which the scientific method begins to operate on this subject.

Aikiweb is not the place to call for references to published papers on the fascia, etc - those papers are published and can be found without too much trouble (there are even aikiweb posts to help one along that journey).

I'm way past thinking it is BS and don't even think those 'discussions' will lead to anything of value.

The 'proof' is right there in the demonstrated execution of the skills. A scientific description of the observable phenomena is not and will never constitute proof because proof is not the purpose nor product of the scientific method. Certainly the scientific method can and does provide the tools to disprove assertions as explanations of a particular set of observations but it never has and never will prove anything.

Can one become proficient, even a pinnacle of mastery, of IP, IS, aiki, etc in the absence of any knowledge of fascia, etc or even a scientific explanation? Moot question because there are already many examples of exactly this being the case.

If Mr. Ledyard is perfectly happy to carry on and not be bothered with a scientific explanation then carry on brother. I'm right there hoping you will deign to provide me instruction. Me, well I'm greedy and selfish and I want both. I'm pretty certain Mr. Ledyard is perfectly happy with that and would wish me luck in so doing. He (and others) doesn't (don't) care if there is a scientific explanation and I (and others) do. No beef there. Different strokes different folks.

We of the bretheren do believe (and hope) that once there is a scientific explanation (there is no doubt amongst the brethren that there is one, or more) that some will find the study if IP, IS, aiki, etc will be enhanced, improved and become more effectively transmitted by the inclusion of salient points in the scientific explanation. When that happens I have no doubt that Mr. Ledyard (if he and I live to see that day) will happily take from it what he thinks fits with his program and keep on keepin' on.

Easy? No freakin' way. Harder than any of us thinks. Might not be possible for hundreds of years. Being that I'm selfish, egotistical and arrogant enough to take a crack at that nut - stand back and watch out for flying chunks of ignorance.

Thanks

P.S. Ignorance is a perfectly nice word that simply indicates a lack of understanding and/or knowledge. We, one and all, are currently ignorant of the scientific explanation of IS, IP, aiki, etc.

P.S.S. “Bretheren”: Yes, we are true believers that the scientific method will lead to truth. We have faith that the proper application of the scientific method will clear away the clouds of unknowing. We hope and pray that the truths so found will not be used to hasten the destruction of all that is good and great. Can I get an “Amen”?

George S. Ledyard
10-18-2009, 01:30 PM
If Mr. Ledyard is perfectly happy to carry on and not be bothered with a scientific explanation then carry on brother. I'm right there hoping you will deign to provide me instruction. Me, well I'm greedy and selfish and I want both. I'm pretty certain Mr. Ledyard is perfectly happy with that and would wish me luck in so doing. He (and others) doesn't (don't) care if there is a scientific explanation and I (and others) do. No beef there. Different strokes different folks.


Don't get me wrong. I love a good explanation as much as the next guy. I'll drop everything to work through another book I think has some bearing, like the body mapping book I just finished.

My point is simply what is your priority? Doing or understanding? There are folks who can do things for which they have little or no explanation. And there are folks possessed of all sorts of technical scientific knowledge who can't do anything. So I go for the doing as my priority then I follow it up with understanding why's and wherefores later as the opportunity permits.

This works well for me. I can do things right now that I really don't understand exactly why they work. I can teach others to do it it as well. When more information presents itself in some form or other, perhaps I will eventually actually understand the why of it. But I don't require that to do it. Perhaps this is just a learning style issue... There may be folks who require the "why" to be able to "do". But I don't think most folks are like this.

Rob Watson
10-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Don't get me wrong. I love a good explanation as much as the next guy. I'll drop everything to work through another book I think has some bearing, like the body mapping book I just finished.

My point is simply what is your priority? Doing or understanding?

I fall solidly into the camp of doing with understanding - I don't see it as an either/or situation. I'm not silly enough to believe both happen at the same time or in the same measure. Right now I'm working on doing because I need a much better basis to build understanding. I very much look forward to being able to do this stuff and going crazy trying to figure out how to explain it. I am just brash enough to believe it is possible. Of course, I'm prepared to fail miserably and die trying. Seems to be my M.O. (not that last part).

If I do figure it out look for the book and you get the first signed copy, no charge for awesomeness.

Thanks

David Orange
10-18-2009, 10:16 PM
My point is simply what is your priority? Doing or understanding? There are folks who can do things for which they have little or no explanation. And there are folks possessed of all sorts of technical scientific knowledge who can't do anything. So I go for the doing as my priority then I follow it up with understanding why's and wherefores later as the opportunity permits.

Sure, I used to have very general and misguided desires to see all kinds of scientific studies of "normal" aikido techniques without really knowing what I expected the studies to ask, who they would choose to study, etc.

And yet, even with no scientific studies at all, a lot of people learned to do "ordinary" aikido. Maybe we all have weird explanations for how we do it and maybe those explantions are wrong or not...maybe more wrong when they try to be "scientific" than when they just explain how we feel when we do the techniques.

This works well for me. I can do things right now that I really don't understand exactly why they work. I can teach others to do it it as well. When more information presents itself in some form or other, perhaps I will eventually actually understand the why of it. But I don't require that to do it. Perhaps this is just a learning style issue... There may be folks who require the "why" to be able to "do". But I don't think most folks are like this.

And since it's almost dumb to think of having "scientific studies" of mere normal aikido technique, how are we going to "study" the nature and action of something like "intent" and how it produces effects such as aiki. I just don't see anyone funding that.

I do think that you have to get to understand a why, somehow, to progress, maybe better whys as you go along, but as you state above, we shouldn't hold our breath waiting for NIH to commission a scientific study along those lines. I think the best you can do is keep finding people who can do their thing very well and take what they tell you for what you can make of it. If he says purple clouds and golden light, and he can do things we can't do...we should just accept his explanation until we can at least do what he can do. Then we can explain it however we see it. Or find someone who can do what he can do and whose explanation we like better.


"Tiger got to hunt,
bird got to fly,
man got to ask himself
why, why, why?

Tiger got to rest,
bird got to land,
Man got to tell himself
he understand."

Vonnegutt

Buck
10-18-2009, 11:24 PM
I have a different view, modeled primarily on this,

"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates

Where would we be in knowledge of ourselves and the world around us if we stuck to the idea similar to, "if man was to fly he had wings." Or if we cared not to examine, to find answers, knowledge, or find truth? To pursue knowledge and depth of knowledge shouldn't be a crime. Ignorance wasn't the soup de jour for the Chinese, or any advanced ancient culture that we have built upon to day. What if any of the great western or eastern thinkers didn't pursue knowledge of the world around them. What if medicine sought no explanation of illness or health, would there be healers. What if we just looked at a star not knowing what it is accepting it just twinkles, would we ever had a space program and gone to the moon, or build a space lab where people live in outer-space orbiting the globe. What achievements and knowledge would be lost if we didn't pursue scientific knowledge?

But the fact is we have, and did, and it has proven to be a good and successful philosophy. We are still at it, and I am sure we always will be. :)

Kevin Leavitt
10-18-2009, 11:29 PM
Sort of like being able to tell time. I can't really tell you how a watch works, but I can use it just fine to tell time. I usually catch my train on time.

Then there is the guy that refuses to use the watch cause he doesn't trust it to tell time, he is so busy trying to figure out how the thing works, and talk about it with others that he is always late for his train and ends up catching a cab home.

I suppose it just depends on your priorities.

Kevin Leavitt
10-18-2009, 11:35 PM
On the understanding piece....

I am understanding that there are certain things physically that I must do with my body in order to make certain things happen. I am learning to control my body and muscles to fire a certain way. My proprioceptions to "feel" where my posture is in relation to being correct or incorrect. The tension that is in my legs and certain points, when I have to relax.

I am working on understanding intentions, first consciously...then unconsciously...so that it become intuitive and I no longer need to think about it.

So, yea..there is alot that needs to be payed attention to and understood.

back to the watch analogy...in order to use a watch...I need to understand things at a certain level.

How to tell time....how to read the subway schedules...how daylight savings works, how to read a clock both digital and analog. What "seconds, minutes, and hours relatively represent.

I don't need to understand how to balance gears...how silcon chips work, how a gyroscopic watch works, or all that stuff....someone does at some level...but it is not necessary to be a user of this stuff.

I think at some point, common sense must be the focus of our training and there are only so many hours in the day and we have to set our priorities on what is important.

Buck
10-18-2009, 11:54 PM
On the understanding piece....

I am understanding that there are certain things physically that I must do with my body in order to make certain things happen. I am learning to control my body and muscles to fire a certain way. My proprioceptions to "feel" where my posture is in relation to being correct or incorrect. The tension that is in my legs and certain points, when I have to relax.

I am working on understanding intentions, first consciously...then unconsciously...so that it become intuitive and I no longer need to think about it.

So, yea..there is alot that needs to be payed attention to and understood.

back to the watch analogy...in order to use a watch...I need to understand things at a certain level.

How to tell time....how to read the subway schedules...how daylight savings works, how to read a clock both digital and analog. What "seconds, minutes, and hours relatively represent.

I don't need to understand how to balance gears...how silcon chips work, how a gyroscopic watch works, or all that stuff....someone does at some level...but it is not necessary to be a user of this stuff.

I think at some point, common sense must be the focus of our training and there are only so many hours in the day and we have to set our priorities on what is important.

Wow! that is pretty devil may care. :) I respect it. But I got to ask, you know how MMA works, you are very knowledgable, thus are able to teach it. And doesn't the military go into great detail how to a war works and how to win it, and insures each soldier how a gun works, they make them break it down and all that stuff to be experts. They just don't give them a gun and say pull the little thing hang down here Bubba and point it at the enemy. :D

Isn't common sense, the result of the pursuit and aquring of knowledge? Knowledge is power, my priority is power.

It is the guy who didn't want to carry around a contraption that dripped water to tell him when to do things who created the watch, it is the guy who knows how the watch works so he can fix it, when it stops. It is the guy who had the knowledge of magnetic poles who created a compass so he wouldn't get lost in places he was unfamiliar. And then the guy who had a compass and understood how it worked created the GPS so he reall know where he was at and everyone else. And its the guy who pursued and gained the knowledge of how it all works who fixes it, teaches it, or improves it. Yet, the other guy, who doesn't care to know, is SOL.

You kindly mention priorities, hmm, I place them with being the guy who know things, and not the other guy who is at the mercy of not knowing anything, or less than me. There is more advantages to knowing then not, I think. :D

And since we are sharing ideas, isn't common sense, the result of the pursuit of and aquring knowledge? Knowledge is power, therefore, my priority than is power.

All am saying is I am in support of the Scientific aiki.

Glad I had the opportunity to share my thoughts with you. :)

dps
10-19-2009, 12:08 AM
It all depends on the individual.

In my experience as a Customer Service Engineer ( service technician ) the more an end user knows how the equipment or system works the better user they become. They can avoid common mistakes that lead to having to call for service to repair their mistakes.

A person is only able to understand up to what their education, experience and desire are.

Everybody understands differently and the more ways a teacher is able to explain a subject the more people he/she will reach.
David

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 12:19 AM
Buck wrote:

Wow! that is pretty devil may care. I respect it. But I got to ask, you know how MMA works, you are very knowledgable, thus are able to teach it. And doesn't the military go into great detail how to a war works and how to win it, and insures each soldier how a gun works, they make them break it down and all that stuff to be experts. They just don't give them a gun and say pull the little thing hang down here Bubba and point it at the enemy

As an Infantryman I know alot about how to use weapons, especially rifles. WIndage, elevation, point of aim, point of impact, how to zero, trajectory...list goes on.

I couldn't tell you how many grams of powder are in the bullet, what how many spirals are in the barrel, or how to really gunsmith the weapon at all. I can't talk to you much about how night vision works with fiber optics, or how lasers really work...i simply know the things that are necessary to use the tool.

again, someone probably has to know this stuff in the greater scheme of things..that is why we have geeks and scientist...

It ain't necessary for the end user of the thing to know this stuff...there is a reason for this I believe and it is simply a matter of priorities and time.

It is more important for me and my soldiers to concentrate on the endstates and applications than it is to understand physics, science at the level of detail that you guys are talking about.

You will simply implode on the whole intellect of it all.

I hope you guys figure this stuff out. Not saying it ain't important for someone....but, I think you have to choose were in the food chain you want to belong.

I disagree...knowledge is not power.

Wisdom is power.

Wisdom is knowledge that is applied and implemented.

Wisdom is having the foresight and the common sense to understand priorities and how to do stuff.

Caveman had wisdom without knowledge.

They knew that fire kept them warm. They gained the wisdom in order to start and maintain and use fires.

They never had to understand the physics of combustion or any of that stuff in order to use it.

This damn information age has led alot of folks astray about what is important in life and what really matters.

If knowledge where ulitmate, we'd be working less hours since we have the power to produce more with less effort...no...we simply work harder and up the ante.

Wisdom is knowing that this is what is happening...and figuring out what you really need in life and focusing your priorities and time where it really matters.

Good luck.

dps
10-19-2009, 12:33 AM
As an Infantryman I know alot about how to use weapons, especially rifles. WIndage, elevation, point of aim, point of impact, how to zero, trajectory...list goes on.

Which is a lot more scientific information than just point and shoot.

David

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 05:56 AM
Agreed David, never professed that you had to be completely ignorant...there is a "mid point" or moderation that is necessary.

I simply submit that it is not necessary to know to the level that many here are trying to dissect down to in order to understand, implement, or to be successful.

I need to understand a certain amount of kinesthetics, posture, understanding of proprioception, sense of timing etc....

To get into the biochemstry or the molecular level of what is going on? to really care if it is fascia, muscle or bone? To debate this ad naseum over and over at that level of detail?

I am just saying that I don't believe it is necessary and in fact believe that it is probably detrimental actually to the actual learning process as it is taking the place of authentic wisdom, or practical application.

That is all I am really saying.

Yes, I agree, macroscopically, we need an understanding and somewhat unified way of discussing basic prinicples and concepts.

From what I have experienced between the "guys in the know"...actually there is, even though they might take a slightly different approach to things...there is suprisingly a great deal of commonality between them.

I do find it interesting that the guys that have experienced one or several of these guys...really don't have an issue with this....it seems to be the guys who have not gotten out and experienced this.

Our challenge is figuring out which guy's methods we can best relate too or that we are comfortable following the most.

You know it is sort of like marksmanship. Once I can shoot and understand one weapon and develop some base skills...it is pretty easy to pick up any weapon and do "okay" with it. There are some differences between an M4 and an AK-47...however, they are not so different or profound that it prevents me from using the rifle after a few minutes of orientation and adjustment.

A big part of this discussion is "keyboard warriorship" if you ask me.

Sorry, just calling it like I see it.

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 06:46 AM
Another good analogy.

Today if I went into a classroom and asked the students to draw or describe a duckbilled platypus without talking to one another, they would all pretty much come up with the same common picture, albeit they might approach it slightly different or use different words to describe it, or might start with a different part of the anatomy.

Universally they would be giving a macro level description of the features, the bill, tail, fur, eyes etc.

500 years ago, I would not have gotten the same result and we would have argued ad naseum that it didn't exist, couldn't exist, and if it did then we would argue that each other had no clue what they were talking about. Even if 5 guys had actually seen one, and produced almost the same drawing of one!

However, those 5 guys that had actually seen it...well they might say "you didn't draw his bill wide enough, or it is the wrong shade of gray".

That debate, however, is occuring on a much different level than the folks that have not actually seen one.

Does that make sense.

I know it sucks and is frustrating trying to understand this stuff, especially if you cannot get to some of the guys that are good at teaching. I also understand that it can be very frustrating hearing folks saying over and over..."well you just gotta get out there and feel it."

unfortunately, until you do, it is going to be very difficult to discuss. It ain't about drinking the kool-aid, or that some kind of "spray" is used to make you join the cult or something.

Far from it.

To me, it is like the platypus example. However, once you have seen it and felt it....well the argument, debate, discussion, and perspective changes significantly.

Buck
10-19-2009, 07:09 AM
Point of interest:

I read here recently that daitoryu in it's history dissected body's to see how things worked, if this is true, can we consider this scientific exploration/ aiki?

Also doesn't the Chinese characters for chi loosely show a fire, a rice pot and a lid raised about the pot, indicating something not see moving the pota lid. If this is true then that is early scientific observation.

Doesn't scientific results give us something to look at, to be accurate at what is being said or done? Because allot of times we don't understand what is being done, even if we feel it. And there could be hundreds explanations accurate and not. To really know what is happening we have to look at it, examine it. It is in our benefit to gain more or accurate knowledge and understanding of what is being done and happening. That is how I work at least. I want to know. I am not satisfied with anything else.

Just some last thoughts to throw around.

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 10:06 AM
No I don't think this is what "science" does for us.

I am a hacker at heart. I love the concept of reverse engineering. I like to let the rocket scientist and geeks do all the hard work then I like to get the final product and see how it works and then make it work for me.

Little investment, less risk, and typically a decent return on your investment.

I think this is a better model for us to work on in Martial Arts. Lots of guys have gone before us that have figured out what works and what doesn't work.

Doctor Porsche came up with a pretty good design for an horizontally opposed air cooled car engine...the Japanese thought so, bought one, pulled it apart and made a Subaru.

Again agree that at some level their needs to be an understanding of physics...but come on...think about it....

Gravity, balance, and all that affect the ability to walk...babies learn to do this with out explicit knowledge of walking.

If we all sat around and refused to walk before we understood it, we'd be sitting for a long part of our life.

Ron Tisdale
10-19-2009, 10:25 AM
heh, yeah, some of us for longer than others.... :D

Best,
Ron

Alfonso
10-19-2009, 10:46 AM
Did you just say aikido comes from babies????

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 11:21 AM
Yup...I believe we are born with it and then we gradually get smarter and smarter until we develop our perceptions and habits..right wrong or indifferent...then we spend alot of time and effort fixing them.

jonreading
10-19-2009, 12:06 PM
You think its BS, get on the mat with one of these folks. If you think you can do what they are talking about, show people you can. But sitting back and questioning everything in a discussion when you have absolutely no direct experience of it is ridiculous.


I believe that this phenominon is the direct result of aikido being viewed by its students as a commodity, not a skill.

I was walking down a boardwalk several summers back and there was one of those street vendors who paints a pitcure of the night sky using acyrlic spraypaint. The art is completely replicable and [a little] cheesey, but interesting to watch in creation. Anywho, I overhear a couple standing next to me, the man says to the woman, "that's so rehearsed, anyone can do it." Apparenatly the artist overheard the comment as well and announced to the audience the man should help him make a picture. The story ends with the man looking silly and skulking away. Things are not so easy sometimes.

In aikido, I an amazed at the number of questions, comments, backseat driving, and general discussion that takes place. In many cases, those offenders see aikido as a commodity to be used as they see fit - they are entitled to descriptions, diagrams, and elaborate explanations because they are paying for that knowledge.

Scientific knowledge can enlighten a difficult concept, but so can practice. Senior aikido people can better communicate complicated concepts, but they can also better illustrate the proper movement. Muscle memory is a very important tool for training and I don't think you use the right muscles when you talk... :)

David Orange
10-19-2009, 02:58 PM
Alfonso Adriasola wrote:

"Did you just say aikido comes from babies????"

Yup...I believe we are born with it and then we gradually get smarter and smarter until we develop our perceptions and habits..right wrong or indifferent...then we spend alot of time and effort fixing them.

Oh, boy.

I'm especially intrested in the way babies develop the ability to stand and walk through feeling and constant exploration of the feeling of gravity on their bodies. They soon learn the purity of absolute "up" and absolute "down" and develop incredible affinity for that sense. And gradually, they learn to "stack" their bodies higher and higher from the ground. I have watched my three children pass through this stage of learning and it is always incredibly rewarding because you see not only a little machine teaching itself to orient and operate, but you see this little person figuring out incredible mysteries.

As for error being ingrained into that system, probably the simplest yet maybe the most difficult to correct is caused by parents who "rush" the child through the process and make "standing" and "walking" more important than the vital process of exploration and trial and error, which develops the musculature and prepares the various parts of the body to work together. It is possible to walk after skipping some stages of that process, but it will definitely cause both physical and psychological problems as the child grows and matures. Some studies have been done with ADHD children, helping them to overcome the disorder through simple crawling exercises that let them regress to the point of incomplete development and quickly re-progress past it, clearing both physical mis-tensioning and psychological insecurity and sketchiness. They feel more grounded and secure and can thus learn faster and more completely.

In short, a fascinating subject with nearly endless potentials.

Best to all.

David

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 04:17 PM
Nice post Jon!

Also David, interesting stuff. I am watching young kids master BJJ these days and I frankly am fascinated at how fast they learn. I really do believe there is a correalation between the developing brain and transmission of skill.

We see it with young kids in learning languages, why not JJ?

It seems as we get older we become more entrenched in our habits and learned behaviors.

I really do think that the attempts to mentally process this stuff in a "scientific" way is determintal to our ability to learn as it causes the wrong psycology that we can really "think" our way through it.

I think there are alot of right brained/analytical folks for some reason attracted to Aikido in general and they really need to learn to "let go" of the skill/habits that has allowed them to be successful in so many areas of their professional life.

I believe this is tough to do and scary as it is a part of a person that has dominated them for so long and to do this might seem completely absurb!

Rob Watson
10-19-2009, 05:55 PM
I really do think that the attempts to mentally process this stuff in a "scientific" way is determintal to our ability to learn as it causes the wrong psycology that we can really "think" our way through it.

I plead guilty as charged but I don't think I struggled any more with this aspect than I've seen any number of others do as well. Pretty much every beginner I've seen goes through this "thinking too much" phase. For me it comes and goes it fits and starts - depends on what we are working on. No matter what there is always concious effort on some aspect of training unless I'm specifically working on not thinking about things (which I really do work on).

Also, when I talk about the sientific stuff I'm not at all meaning in the sense of thinking ones way through technique or training. Training is hard enough without adding that stuff on top! Think instead of a post event debriefing or something to do while in those down times.

As for all the chatter ... I wonder how much has to do with a great many dojos in which there is precious little talking or even active discourgement like "shut up and train". We are social and we like to gab. Some more than others.

Thanks

eyrie
10-19-2009, 06:14 PM
Also doesn't the Chinese characters for chi loosely show a fire, a rice pot and a lid raised about the pot, indicating something not see moving the pota lid. If this is true then that is early scientific observation. Not even close...

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 06:28 PM
I plead guilty as charged but I don't think I struggled any more with this aspect than I've seen any number of others do as well. Pretty much every beginner I've seen goes through this "thinking too much" phase. For me it comes and goes it fits and starts - depends on what we are working on. No matter what there is always concious effort on some aspect of training unless I'm specifically working on not thinking about things (which I really do work on).

Also, when I talk about the sientific stuff I'm not at all meaning in the sense of thinking ones way through technique or training. Training is hard enough without adding that stuff on top! Think instead of a post event debriefing or something to do while in those down times.

As for all the chatter ... I wonder how much has to do with a great many dojos in which there is precious little talking or even active discourgement like "shut up and train". We are social and we like to gab. Some more than others.

Thanks

Of course we are all are guilty of this in varying ways throughout our training. It took me a long while to accept the fact that no matter how smart I thought/think I am, I simply cannot think my way through this stuff. Visualization is important, so don't want to discount that aspect...I am not talking about that.

Well I think "shut up and train has it's place". However, I think moderation is good too. When you are having problems there is nothing wrong with "hey can you help me!".

That said, I think sometimes there is way too much talk and not enough DO.

I tihnk the time to talk is after practice then of course, it is "he said/she said, dojo gossip, who's doing what, politics, budo war stories etc...and THAT is a big part of the process too I think!

Buck
10-19-2009, 08:11 PM
Wonderful comments by all, and if an esoteric view is your preference and you are comfortable with it, fine. But me personally, I will not reject any scientific study. I have trained in Aikido and I do think a problem in learning is the different language the specialized language, the poetic/coded/mystic language, language barriers, view points and perspectives, all related to communicating ideas. To teach and to learn you must communicate effectively and all of what I outlined forms a language/learning barrier. To communicate effectively everyone has to be on the same page. To resolve this language problem (besides education of course) which isn't unique to Aikido, is to have an universal language of science.

I am not talking about something new here that hasn't ever been tried or tested before, we are talking about something this is well test though out the ages that is now a standard that is a default.

I have had experience learning in many different Aikido dojo's where standard terminology of Aikido is used, and other terminology sprinkled in here and there often saying the same thing. It was when I started to translate the language of Aikido to that of physics and science that I was able to communicate to other martial artists similar principles and stuff. And when I started to see Aikido differently. Not that I ever abandoned the language of Aikido, I just understood in a way that was familiar and less abstract. The language of science is easy to access and science explains so much in our world. It would be sad not to consider the value in that.

I can only see that a study of aiki would be very enlightening in so many ways. What would it hurt? :)

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 08:30 PM
Yet we know so little about you Buck. Where you study, how long, with whom, we know of no one that you have worked with, that you have actually communicated with or any of that stuff. It sure would be nice if we could know a little bit more about who you are and with whom you've studied with.

Yet you won't answer this question...I know that already.

Has anyone here on AIkiweb ever met Buck at all?

Buck
10-19-2009, 09:30 PM
Yet we know so little about you Buck. Where you study, how long, with whom, we know of no one that you have worked with, that you have actually communicated with or any of that stuff. It sure would be nice if we could know a little bit more about who you are and with whom you've studied with.

Yet you won't answer this question...I know that already.

Has anyone here on AIkiweb ever met Buck at all?

Private email me.

Kevin Leavitt
10-19-2009, 10:25 PM
PM Sent. As I stated in the PM though, it would be helpful to everyone involved if we knew a little bit more about your background etc.

Ron Tisdale
10-20-2009, 11:46 AM
The language of science is easy to access and science explains so much in our world. It would be sad not to consider the value in that.

I can only see that a study of aiki would be very enlightening in so many ways. What would it hurt?
I don't think any one has said not to consider it, and I'm sure no one said it would hurt. That makes your statements very misleading.

Best,
Ron