Who's got Internal Training and can and will teach it? [Archive]

M. McPherson

10-17-2009, 08:36 PM

Mr. Watson,

While I really applaud and encourage the effort to seek out instructors who not only possess some level of IS, but can actually teach it, I'd offer the caveat that you're opening a can worms with your request; as evinced by most of the threads on this forum dealing with IT/IS, a greater number of folks purport to have some understanding of what IT and IS are than can actually cogently describe even the most obvious, fundamental manifestations thereof (and as tough as these skills are to acquire, the various tests/expressions of basic competency -- and I mean basic -- are very easy to describe and engage in), let alone actually demonstrate the slightest IS skills.

I think what you're going to end up with is a never-ending list of shining recommendations from well-meaning folks who have misinterpreted decent external martial skill -- and even more likely, crappy external martial skill - as being the Queen of Our Dreams. All of which, inevitably, will deteriorate into a series of indignant counter-posts claiming that so-and-so has been unfairly left off the list, or ad hominem attacks on anyone challenging the efficacy of such-and-such an organization's martial skill and teaching methodology. I mean, it's great fun if you have a bucket of popcorn and a good comfy seat (and nothing more worthwhile to occupy your time -- which would be just about anything else), but I wouldn't expect to gain anything worthwhile to go on if I were you. As much as can be said for the current trend of collective interpretation (i.e. wiki-knowledge), this topic is most certainly not an example of consensus trumping credentials. Sorry, but the hive mind just won't cut it with regard to IS.

I don't mean to color your curiosity as wasted effort, either. As much as the noise overwhelms the signal in this topic, you've got a great resource here on Aikiweb for finding opportunities, but you're really going to have to do some hard work to find out what's what, and who's who (and I'm not even talking about starting this work once you find someone credible who can actually teach you how to begin). First off, there are three names bandied about here quite regularly who are agreed to have something tangible, powerful, and replicable by those who have laid hands upon them. So do your reading -- notice that everyone who meets these three heavy hitters (er, literally) comes away with their entire world view shattered as far as MAs go. Those who show the most skepticism seem to do so from behind a keyboard…or from an entrenched belief system. Second, doubt that these heavy hitters could possibly live up to all the encomia, and that all the accolades come from a bunch of easily hoodwinked asthmatics whose only martial experiences emanate from a joystick and computer screen. And so resolve to go find out for yourself, because as a martial artist you realize that understanding of any merit is highly somatic, often painful, and hard-earned. You're really in luck here, because two of the three figures you'll read about hold seminars offering you a chance to not only feel what all the hooha's about, but will teach you the skills to set you in the right direction. The third person is welcoming and extremely generous to all sincere inquiries. Third, take everything you feel and experience with a conceptual grain of salt, and then go seek out the other two, just to broaden your scope of understanding. This is not to say that these three teachers are the end-all-be-all, but you'll have an effective baseline for further comparison. Then when you drop by the (insert bitchin' esoteric name here) School of (insert bitchin', really popular martial art-du jour here), you'll know whether Dai-Soke Earle "Phoenix Claw" McGinty has the goods or not the second you lay hands on him (and, hey, he really might). The important part in all of this is that you go out and feel for yourself. Again, this is not to say that you won't get some good recommendations from your query, but you already have a well-recommended pool (tiny though it may be) from which to avoid a lot of wasted time and effort.

One last caveat: don't expect any of this to come to you; do expect to have to go far and spend time and money to get to it. It would be really great if one of the seminar teachers decided to hold a gathering near you, but most of the folks who've felt any of this have either driven or flown quite a ways to do so. Before being consumed by my graduate program, I made a few trips of six to seven hours to experience it; people like Mark Murray have driven or flown even farther. I can't begin to detail how valuable and rewarding the effort will be.

Best of luck,
Murray McPherson

Rob Watson

10-17-2009, 10:16 PM

Rob Watson

10-17-2009, 10:27 PM

One last caveat: don't expect any of this to come to you; do expect to have to go far and spend time and money to get to it.

Perhaps I've misunderstood .. I thought Dan Harden was focusing on instructing instructors so they can go out and instruct (was that not one of the reasons behind the recent seminar?). If only we can find out who those folks are then we can go and get some instruction.

Thanks

brian p

10-17-2009, 10:36 PM

Anyone have experience with YC Wong? This school is in San Francisco.

Thanks

Y.C. Wong's bagua is from Gao Yi-Sheng's line (different branch of Gao than mine though). Good people IME.

M. McPherson

10-17-2009, 11:05 PM

Perhaps I've misunderstood .. I thought Dan Harden was focusing on instructing instructors so they can go out and instruct (was that not one of the reasons behind the recent seminar?).

No, that definitely seems to be his intent, and it's an exciting trend. What I meant was that you've got three guys who are widely held to be lightyears ahead of most. There could be others, but these are three who a fair number of high rankers (in a variety of arts, but for the sake of this site, maybe it's enough just to focus on aikido sensei) say have the goods. So why not just cut to the chase and go to them first (if you have the opportunity), as opposed to having to weed through potentially questionable recommendations. And as much of a tired cliche as it can sound like, it really does have to be felt. Once you have, your radar for this stuff becomes a lot sharper.
You're absolutely right that, in time, this stuff will disseminate (that is, if people are working on it correctly, and consistently), but it won't happen right away. You may get some time with X-Sensei, Aikikai 6dan, who's been learning from one of these gents, and feel amazing things, but I'm willing to bet you it's only nascent ability. Better than people who don't know how to do this? Sure. Anywhere close to having a firm and consistent grasp on this? Maybe in a year or two. Or more - who knows?
That's why I recommend you (really, anyone who's interested in this) to politely contact one of the three who teach this regularly, and join the festivities. If you're able to do so, and practice this stuff consistently and actively, there's no reason to say you'll be much farther behind those 5th and 6th dan. The reason those high rankers are talked about so much isn't because they have any more inherent capacity for this stuff than you do, but because they're the ones who will be able to effect broader systemic change much more directly (or cause wider schismatic unpleasantness - again, who knows? Not a bad thing in either case).

Best,
Murray McPherson

George S. Ledyard

10-18-2009, 12:32 AM

10-18-2009, 08:42 AM

No, that definitely seems to be his intent, and it's an exciting trend. What I meant was that you've got three guys who are widely held to be lightyears ahead of most.

Hello Murray,

I'll add a short bit. When I met Rob John (who trains with Akuzawa), he had been training for 4-5 years. He was light years ahead of me. So, those training actively (not like me, I'm at a distance) with one of the big three are going to be very good in about 5 years. Some have been training for a year already. It really is going to be interesting to see how the US aikido world changes over time. A relatively short time.

What I think some people don't realize is that some of us have started teaching others. No, we can't do all the things the big three can do, yes we're still struggling with a lot of IT stuff. But, I know from personal experience that I can bring people up to my level of ability. I have two students who are nearly my equal and one that's progressing nicely (he only has about 6 months training in).

Instead of people having to wait 5 years for someone to get "good" enough to demo and teach, then have them teach some people who have to wait 5 years to do it all again, we're teaching right now. Dan's plan was brilliant and nothing anyone had ever thought of doing. Teach the teachers, yes. But, an added point that few have brought up. Take the IT back and start teaching now. So, now imagine 5 years from now ...

10-18-2009, 08:45 AM

Folks known to have hands on with members of the above list (not in any particular order)
Mark Murray

I'm in WV currently. While I certainly don't have the skills (yet) to give anyone a demo that would impress them, I can teach what I've learned. As I said in my previous post, I have three students who are progressing nicely. Anyone is more than welcome to stop by and train with us.

Mike Sigman

10-18-2009, 08:46 AM

The first rule of IT club is don't talk about IT club - IHTBF

The short list (not in any particular order):
Mike Sigman
Dan Harden
Ark
Toby Threadgill
Kudora Tetsusan
Ushiro Kenji
Donald J. Angier
Ikeda Hiroshi

The last 5 on the list can also be seen on Aiki Expo DVD's

Folks known to have hands on with members of the above list (not in any particular order)
I gleaned this from postings about Dan Hardens seminar work so I believe these folks have all been hands on with Dan Harden.
William Gleason
Marc Abrams NY
Rob Liberti CT
Tom Holz RI
David Orange AL
Lee Salzman
Mark Murray
Josh Drachman
Greg Steckel PA
Jon Haas NJ
Jeremy Alhouse MA
Andy Prochnow
Jill
Tim Garimaldi
Ray

For out in my neck of the woods William Gleason, Ikeda Hiroshi and Don Angier have or do give seminars at Aikido of Diablo Valley.

Feel free to add and send corrections!
Well, I know some people that do Aikido and who would place pretty high on that list, but who don't make a lot of noise about themselves on this forum or otherwise. I.e., there are more choices than just those listed above. In terms of being able to help others learn the skills, I think it takes a lot longer to get real skills than seems to be indicated frequently on the forum, so while someone who is himself learning can help to some degree, he's still working through his own mistakes and can impart mistakes to would-be learners, too often. I.e., you'll have to be savvy in your choices.

I usually do a quick evaluation of people at the start of a workshop so that I can gauge the overall abilities people already have (and thus adjust what I want to say accordingly). Most of the time I'm a little surprised at how much lower peoples' skills are in relation to their own evaluation of themself; occasionally (and I've been seeing more of this in the last 4-5 years) I'm pleasantly surprised at how well some people have been developing. So it boils down to "you pays your money and you takes your choice". Given that a lot of this material is just barely making itself known, I personally would do a lot of thinking before I made a choice.

Another comment I'd make is that there are some people in other styles who may have skills and they're just not mentioned on this ASU-dominated forum. One rule I stuck to for many years was to look around long and hard before I'd commit myself to a teacher... it paid off for me. Another rule I had was to try to get a feel of the highest placed person in a style that I could so that I'd have an idea of what real x-style felt like and could pattern my goals accordingly. Not all of this is possible; it's just suggestions.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Rob Watson

10-18-2009, 11:43 AM

Well, I know some people that do Aikido and who would place pretty high on that list, but who don't make a lot of noise about themselves on this forum or otherwise. I.e., there are more choices than just those listed above. In terms of being able to help others learn the skills, I think it takes a lot longer to get real skills than seems to be indicated frequently on the forum, so while someone who is himself learning can help to some degree, he's still working through his own mistakes and can impart mistakes to would-be learners, too often. I.e., you'll have to be savvy in your choices.

Absolutely. Not my intent to imply exclusivity of any sort. Certainly there is more than "the big three" and I'd just like to get a bit more meat on the bones so the rest of us schmucks have at least a bit more to go on than "go find someone"

So it boils down to "you pays your money and you takes your choice".

Choice is one thing but chance is more like it unless there is a bit more to go on so one can make an informed choice.

Like George Ledyard pointed out there are different manifestation of IP, IS, aiki, etc depending on the emphasis of the various arts one finds the skills in. If we don't know whos who, much less how IP, IS, aiki, etc is expressed in that art just what kind of chance do we have of making a decent choice?

I'm hard pressed to cull the postings here and isolate the distinctions between IP, IS, aiki, etc much less how the heavy hitters in their respective arts manifest them (certainly there are hints and one can make an educated guess). Either way it is a tough choice but hopefully it will become easier without too much more effort.

Thanks

Rob Watson

10-18-2009, 11:51 AM

So why not just cut to the chase and go to them first (if you have the opportunity)

If one is able then by all means make the opportunity happen. Some of us are on a bit shorter leash. A weekend seminar is one thing but for long term consistent and timely instruction consistent face time is required (my opinion) so that means finding some one a bit closer to home. I'm not looking to be spoon fed it just for now some options are just not open. Not to mention there has got to be more than the "big three".

That's why I recommend you (really, anyone who's interested in this) to politely contact one of the three who teach this regularly, and join the festivities.

Rob Watson

10-18-2009, 11:57 AM

Well, I know some people that do Aikido and who would place pretty high on that list, but who don't make a lot of noise about themselves on this forum or otherwise

Not to be pushy but how about some names? PM if you would rather, I'm selfish that way and can keep my mouth shut if required.

Aikido or not doesn't really matter to me.

Thanks

Ernesto Lemke

10-18-2009, 12:10 PM

Mike Sigman

10-18-2009, 12:29 PM

Choice is one thing but chance is more like it unless there is a bit more to go on so one can make an informed choice.

Like George Ledyard pointed out there are different manifestation of IP, IS, aiki, etc depending on the emphasis of the various arts one finds the skills in. If we don't know whos who, much less how IP, IS, aiki, etc is expressed in that art just what kind of chance do we have of making a decent choice?

I'm hard pressed to cull the postings here and isolate the distinctions between IP, IS, aiki, etc much less how the heavy hitters in their respective arts manifest them (certainly there are hints and one can make an educated guess). Either way it is a tough choice but hopefully it will become easier without too much more effort.
Well, first of all let me go back to something that I don't think has really penetrated very clearly.... these skills aren't unique to Aikido nor were they unique to Daito Ryu, nor are concepts for different styles/factions unique, and so on. Notice that Tohei has a separate ranking for the ki/kokyu skills outside of his Aikido ranking. Note that O-Sensei's cryptic quotes are obliquely sometimes and specific many times in quoting standard Chinese directions/admonitions about these skills.

When people start talking about "ki" and they have Yin-Yang dichotomy and "A-Un" and Five Elements, etc., we're talking about the same basic skills with the same basic rules and principles. Some Koryu or Aikido faction that uses different techniques and applications, that's fine but the basic ki skills by necessity must be the same, depending upon how purely they're done.

Most of the differences you see and hear about in the Aikido discussions are due to some differences in approach to technique or are due to different training approaches for the skills or how complete those approaches are. Let me give an example of what happens (this is true historically in many arts, going back in martial history where the ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills are used).

Say someone learns some rudimentary jin/kokyu skills and develops a fair amount of power and ki-blending, but they still use a lot of arm/shoulder, never fully learn to use the dantien, etc. Their techniques will reflect that incomplete acquisition of skills and someone in a related school may note that there is a difference in the way the techniques, trainings, etc., are done. That doesn't mean that the basic principles of the ki/kokyu skills changed... the differences are simply a result of how well the skills are fully known, etc. So I tend to dismiss this worry about "Aikido-related differences" and so on. The basic principles (the ones Ueshiba quoted from the Chinese classics and that many other style use as a settled codification) are the same.

Using the above example of someone who has incomplete or not-completely-understood skills, let's continue with the scenario in which they still use arm/shoulder, don't really know all the ins-and-outs of the hara/dantien usage, and so on. They practice in their own way for a number of years and they imprint this incorrect way of moving with the kokyu/jin skills. They still have power, etc., but they're limited (and there are other complexities too involved to go into in this post). All the students learn to move in this incomplete way and their techniques all follow suit. Can they change over to a more complete understanding? It's pretty hard to do, historically. There's a saying about this in Taijiquan that says: "Taiji is easy to learn, but difficult to correct". As proof, go look and see how many "senior Tai Chi instructors" don't really have any power, etc., because they learned and practiced some bogus method and could never change over, even after they meet truly qualified teachers.

So yeah... there's a lot of complexities to consider. Still, since all of this is just starting out, some of the results aren't going to be seen for a few years, but it'll be interesting to watch. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Rob Watson

10-18-2009, 01:54 PM

Well, first of all let me go back to something that I don't think has really penetrated very clearly.... these skills aren't unique to Aikido nor were they unique to Daito Ryu, nor are concepts for different styles/factions unique, and so on. Notice that Tohei has a separate ranking for the ki/kokyu skills outside of his Aikido ranking. Note that O-Sensei's cryptic quotes are obliquely sometimes and specific many times in quoting standard Chinese directions/admonitions about these skills.

When people start talking about "ki" and they have Yin-Yang dichotomy and "A-Un" and Five Elements, etc., we're talking about the same basic skills with the same basic rules and principles. Some Koryu or Aikido faction that uses different techniques and applications, that's fine but the basic ki skills by necessity must be the same, depending upon how purely they're done.

Most of the differences you see and hear about in the Aikido discussions are due to some differences in approach to technique or are due to different training approaches for the skills or how complete those approaches are. Let me give an example of what happens (this is true historically in many arts, going back in martial history where the ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills are used).

Say someone learns some rudimentary jin/kokyu skills and develops a fair amount of power and ki-blending, but they still use a lot of arm/shoulder, never fully learn to use the dantien, etc. Their techniques will reflect that incomplete acquisition of skills and someone in a related school may note that there is a difference in the way the techniques, trainings, etc., are done. That doesn't mean that the basic principles of the ki/kokyu skills changed... the differences are simply a result of how well the skills are fully known, etc. So I tend to dismiss this worry about "Aikido-related differences" and so on. The basic principles (the ones Ueshiba quoted from the Chinese classics and that many other style use as a settled codification) are the same.

Using the above example of someone who has incomplete or not-completely-understood skills, let's continue with the scenario in which they still use arm/shoulder, don't really know all the ins-and-outs of the hara/dantien usage, and so on. They practice in their own way for a number of years and they imprint this incorrect way of moving with the kokyu/jin skills. They still have power, etc., but they're limited (and there are other complexities too involved to go into in this post). All the students learn to move in this incomplete way and their techniques all follow suit. Can they change over to a more complete understanding? It's pretty hard to do, historically. There's a saying about this in Taijiquan that says: "Taiji is easy to learn, but difficult to correct". As proof, go look and see how many "senior Tai Chi instructors" don't really have any power, etc., because they learned and practiced some bogus method and could never change over, even after they meet truly qualified teachers.

So yeah... there's a lot of complexities to consider. Still, since all of this is just starting out, some of the results aren't going to be seen for a few years, but it'll be interesting to watch. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Hello Mr. Sigman,
Yes, this has been one of your consistent messages for several years. I got it and appreciate that there such differences, distinctions, subtleties and gradations to be found in a great many arts. I'm just looking for names to add to the list. After that we can work on a grading scale ;)

Anyone who has a significant issue with your post has probably not been paying attention.

Certainly one of the areas of confusion as for application in aikido is the ability to absorb/dissipate/redirect solid blows to the body since we generally just move in such a way as to preclude the requirement to do so. I heartily concede that it would be a nice skill to have in cases one is unable to move in a 'traditional' way. I'm sure there are many more examples like this. As has been said by many others before there are different ways of expressing this stuff that may be peculiar to each art (or artist).

Thanks

Mike Sigman

10-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Certainly one of the areas of confusion as for application in aikido is the ability to absorb/dissipate/redirect solid blows to the body since we generally just move in such a way as to preclude the requirement to do so. I heartily concede that it would be a nice skill to have in cases one is unable to move in a 'traditional' way. Well, what you described as avoiding a hit (moving to the side, etc.) is part of "techniques and strategies", not the I.S. skills. I differentiate between the two. So does Tohei. So do many other arts. As far as I know, the i.s. skills seem to be in just about every imaginable Asian martial-art, BTW. Just as they're part of Tea Ceremony, calligraphy, traditional dances, and so on.

At the same time, many other arts also espouse and practice "moving aside" for exactly the same reasons that Aikido does; it's part of a very ancient concept of no-resistance. I think a lot of westerners have some vague karate-inspired idea that if someone punches you do a wiper-block, etc., but that's actually a caricature. Most arts are more sophisticated than that.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

10-18-2009, 02:12 PM

Hello Mark (Murray),

Out of curiosity, how did you decide to and how do you divide your training time? Aikido and IT: 50-50? When you say you have a student training for 6 months progressing nicely, did you refer to his IP? And if so, how would you evaluate his aikido progress in comparison? Merely wondering. Especially so considering your comment regarding Rob John. When you say he was light years ahead, I take it you where referring to his IS. I recall Mike writing something to the extend of any martial expression ideally being proceeded or supported by IS fundamentals (I'm paraphrasing from memory so I certainly could be wrong in my assumption, if so, my apologies Mike).

For those of us who are trying to integrate or (re)introduce IT to their martial training, the way to do this poses quite a challenge.
The best of luck to all of us,

Ernesto Lemke

PS
As I mentioned on another thread, I find it remarkable the focus on IT/IP/IS is mainly concentrated in/on the US. When I read the list, with the exception of two instructors, the remaining individuals all live in the US and the majority of them rarely visit Europe. In fact, no European resident is noted on that list, or African, Russian, South American etc. for that matter.

Hello Ernesto,

Hope you're doing well.

I tried the 50-50 route. It wasn't working. After about 6 or so months of that, I went 100% Internal Training. And yes, when I said progressing nicely, I meant in IT. We're sort of at the point where we've begun to integrate our IT into dynamic movement. In other words, we're working on "techniques". But, not techniques for techniques sake, but working under a load in movement in a dynamic manner. Slowly. 100% focus in IT methodology and 0% focus on making a specific technique happen. That's after about 2 years of training.

When I met Rob John, I had no IT. He had 4-5 years of training and I've no doubt that had he wanted to try aikido techniques, I couldn't have stopped him. But, we weren't there for aikido, so that theory was never tested. :)

How do you integrate this into aikido training? That's a completely different subject. I think Rob Liberti started a thread on that at one time.

Personally, I look at it this way ... IT has a different training methodology to rework the body so that it functions in a very different manner than normal. It isn't intuitive or "natural". So, if someone is working on regular aikido training, that aikido training is going to oppose Internal Training at various times, sometimes as much as 100%. The question then becomes, what would you rather do?

It is worth noting that Ueshiba didn't have a technique based training methodology. It is worth noting that most of the schools of Ueshiba's students have a technique based training methodology, but have yet to produce anyone as skilled as them or Ueshiba. It is worth noting that Takeda didn't have a technique based training methodology, but had some methodology to create Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc. It is also worth noting that none of the greats in aikido took very long (what, 10 or fewer years) to become very good.

So, train aikido techniques that burn in things in the body that are opposite IT methods, which will slow your progress in training aiki? Or train IT methods for a few years and then return to aikido?

Rob Watson

10-18-2009, 02:16 PM

Well, what you described as avoiding a hit (moving to the side, etc.) is part of "techniques and strategies", not the I.S. skills. I differentiate between the two. So does Tohei. So do many other arts. As far as I know, the i.s. skills seem to be in just about every imaginable Asian martial-art, BTW. Just as they're part of Tea Ceremony, calligraphy, traditional dances, and so on.

At the same time, many other arts also espouse and practice "moving aside" for exactly the same reasons that Aikido does; it's part of a very ancient concept of no-resistance. I think a lot of westerners have some vague karate-inspired idea that if someone punches you do a wiper-block, etc., but that's actually a caricature. Most arts are more sophisticated than that.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Yes, and I mean it in the same way. If one has no IS skills to deal with the hit then one deploys the tactics to deal with it.

Plenty of folks around can teach the tactic (heck, I can do that) but that IS stuff ... still looking for names.

Thanks

Marc Abrams

10-18-2009, 03:10 PM

The first rule of IT club is don't talk about IT club - IHTBF

The short list (not in any particular order):
Mike Sigman
Dan Harden
Ark
Toby Threadgill
Kudora Tetsusan
Ushiro Kenji
Donald J. Angier
Ikeda Hiroshi

The last 5 on the list can also be seen on Aiki Expo DVD's

Folks known to have hands on with members of the above list (not in any particular order)
I gleaned this from postings about Dan Hardens seminar work so I believe these folks have all been hands on with Dan Harden.
William Gleason
Marc Abrams NY
Rob Liberti CT
Tom Holz RI
David Orange AL
Lee Salzman
Mark Murray
Josh Drachman
Greg Steckel PA
Jon Haas NJ
Jeremy Alhouse MA
Andy Prochnow
Jill
Tim Garimaldi
Ray

For out in my neck of the woods William Gleason, Ikeda Hiroshi and Don Angier have or do give seminars at Aikido of Diablo Valley.

Feel free to add and send corrections!

Thanks

Robert:

I am very fortunate that my teacher, Imaizumi Shizuo, has always encouraged me to go anywhere and train with anyone to learn what I can about budo. I typically return from these trainings with my eyes more "open" than before to see what my teacher is doing (that I was not ready to "see" yet). He then feeds my awareness and gives me more stuff to work on. I realized that the only way that I would really be able to pursue this path was to open my own school so that I could ramp up my own training.

I consider myself very fortunate to have experienced some of the names on that list. Mr. Harden has been remarkably gracious in following up my participation in his seminar with a weekend of training at my school. I plan on continuing my work with him. He has an awful lot of stuff to offer in a friendly, funny and brutally honest manner (my type of environment). Ushiro Kenji has been another person who has remarkably gracious towards me. My school is now the only place that you can train directly with him in the United States. He will be at my school next weekend (10/24& 10/25) and there are still some spaces left for people to attend. I now also travel to Japan several times a year to train directly with him. His students, like Dan's students, are wonderful people whom you cannot help but become friendly with. Training with them is like training at Shin-Budo Kai. It is a place of friendship and honest training. These remarkable teachers create training environments that are genuine and unique.

I would be nothing other than a greedy rectum if I were to hold onto what I am learning. I am fortunate to have a school full of open-minded martial artists who are interested in this "grand experiment" that is my teaching. I aspire to be like Imaizumi Shizuo, who always says that he is passing on what he has learned from his teachers. He does not claim "ownership" despite the fifty years of personal touch that he now gives back to his teaching. I always strive to do the same and pass on what others have been gracious enough to share with me. I hope that as I learn more, my teachings can be a better reflection of those wonderful people who so openly and graciously share what they know with me. Until then, my students humor me and suffer through the little that I know to date :) !

Marc Abrams

Ernesto Lemke

10-18-2009, 03:59 PM

Hope you're doing well.

Hello Mark,
Yes all’s well around these parts. Thanks for asking. Still struggling though.

So, if someone is working on regular aikido training, that aikido training is going to oppose Internal Training at various times, sometimes as much as 100%.

I hear what you’re saying having experienced that myself to some extent. I’m not sure though if it’s not more due to me being inexperienced and not being able to train directly with a qualified teacher on a weekly basis. As Mike mentions above, it may simply be the result of not knowing the full range of these skills. I’m trying to remain very mindful of that but it’s a hard thing to accomplish on ones own.

The question then becomes, what would you rather do?

Well that’s a very good question isn’t it? I’m not fully convinced if it’s the methodology itself between which to choose or my comprehension and mastery of the methodologies (if solely based on what feels more rewarding I would choose IT). I’m aware of that of which I have little mastery, but unaware of what I’m unaware of.

It is worth noting that Ueshiba didn't have a technique based training methodology. It is worth noting that most of the schools of Ueshiba's students have a technique based training methodology, but have yet to produce anyone as skilled as them or Ueshiba. It is worth noting that Takeda didn't have a technique based training methodology, but had some methodology to create Ueshiba, Sagawa, Kodo, etc.

Then again, look at Toby Threadgill (whom I’m NOT comparing to Ueshiba lest I’m mistaken). He's noted for his IS also while primarily teaching from a kata based approach. I guess a lot of the pitfalls of this approach is covered in Takamura Sensei’s excellent article on Shu-ha-ri.
So here at least is one example of a training methodology where the outcome of IS does not require solely focusing on IT.
Best,

Ernesto Lemke

10-18-2009, 04:32 PM

Mr. Lemke

1. IT is not dependant on an art but there are pitfalls to just blowing off some methods contained in the arts on how to USE IP.
2. Then again, it's another HUGE pitfall to look at someones fighting ability and equate that or use it as support for his IP -which may very well be less than stellar as a complete set of IP/aiki skills.
3. Then again someone with very good internal power does not necessarily know how to use it in a martial context.

I have seen all of the above-up close and personal.

Have fun winding your way through the maze, as others have for generations before you. The only real difference I would caution against in the modern age is listening to people telling you what to do, and what is best for you in your art.
I am big advocate for getting out and about and deciding on your own.
Cheers
Dan

10-18-2009, 05:32 PM

Hello Mark,
Yes all's well around these parts. Thanks for asking. Still struggling though.

When training internal skills, or aiki, I think we all struggle quite a bit. :)

Then again, look at Toby Threadgill (whom I'm NOT comparing to Ueshiba lest I'm mistaken). He's noted for his IS also while primarily teaching from a kata based approach. I guess a lot of the pitfalls of this approach is covered in Takamura Sensei's excellent article on Shu-ha-ri.
So here at least is one example of a training methodology where the outcome of IS does not require solely focusing on IT.
Best,

Ernesto Lemke

Hmm ... I was thinking of the aikido world.

Outside that ... as Ellis Amdur mentions in his book, quite a few koryu had some sort of Internal Training.

Rob Watson

10-18-2009, 05:36 PM

I aspire to be like Imaizumi Shizuo, who always says that he is passing on what he has learned from his teachers. He does not claim "ownership" despite the fifty years of personal touch that he now gives back to his teaching.

Hello Mr. Abrams,
Please call me Rob (Robert is OK but when I hear that I know my mom has busted me and I'm in trouble).

Watching Imaizumi Shizuo on the friendship/aiki expo DVDs it is clear he is very enthusiastic about his training and no doubt a good time is had by all.

While I'm not certain I read an invitation in your message don't be surprised if I happen to show up sometime uninvited and take liberties of your hospitality! I've done worse ... I would not hold my breath though since I'm on a short leash for now.

If I had a dojo you, and anyone, would be most welcome to come any time.

Thanks

Ernesto Lemke

10-18-2009, 06:09 PM

I am big advocate for getting out and about and deciding on your own.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Ernesto is fine by me. Mr. Lemke would be my father.

As I mentioned on two other threads, around these parts there's little to go by as far as I'm aware. Having said that, I haven't really looked into the CMA apart from training a couple of times with a friend who studies baghua (sp?) and taichi. The experience I took from that was that I was better at grounding his stuff, floating him in turn and maintain my structure during freestyle grappling. But he would be the last person to claim to be an authority of any kind so this says as much about him as it does about me. Again, I'm just starting out on IT, maybe training 'seriously' about a year and a half.

If you don't mind me asking, when you started getting out and about, at what time in your personal learning process where you able to discern what was IS and what wasn't. Or did you happen to already know IS prior to outside exposure? Was there some defining point or pointers you could share that would be helpful for those like myself who have to rely mostly on self study?

Evidently, please don't feel obligated to answer. I'm asking this mainly because I used to do the seminar route but after affiliating with my current teacher, anything else pailed in comparison. That is, anything else within the aikido community.
The pitfall I perceive with the suggestion of doing the rounds is that as a beginner without 'loyalty' (not me) to some tradition/school/style etc. one could end up as a bastardized stylist since there is no foundation with which to compare the input with. So maybe one ought to have some basic level of experience in order to be better able to differentiate the IS/IT/IP from the other stuff.

Merely typing out loud after midnight and wine...
Best regards,

Ernesto Lemke

Marc Abrams

10-18-2009, 09:28 PM

Hello Mr. Abrams,
Please call me Rob (Robert is OK but when I hear that I know my mom has busted me and I'm in trouble).

Watching Imaizumi Shizuo on the friendship/aiki expo DVDs it is clear he is very enthusiastic about his training and no doubt a good time is had by all.

While I'm not certain I read an invitation in your message don't be surprised if I happen to show up sometime uninvited and take liberties of your hospitality! I've done worse ... I would not hold my breath though since I'm on a short leash for now.

If I had a dojo you, and anyone, would be most welcome to come any time.

Thanks

Rob:

His dojo and my dojo always have an open-door policy. You definitely have a direct invitation from me for food and drink after some excellent training! Where in CA do you train? I love to visit schools when I travel as well.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

George S. Ledyard

10-18-2009, 09:51 PM

If we don't know whos who, much less how IP, IS, aiki, etc is expressed in that art just what kind of chance do we have of making a decent choice?

I don't know Mike... it seems simpler to me. I suspect decisions get more difficult as the level one is talking about gets more sophisticated.
I look around and see someone who can do something I cannot do. I find ways to train with that person until I can do it, then I look for more folks. I already have a back log so I don't see running out anytime soon. It would be different if I were worried about making the best possible choice... but so many other factors enter into it... access, compatibility, willingness of the teacher, all those practical factors. If I can be substantially better next year from where I am this year, it has to suffice. I have a nice network of folks who seem willing to help me with that. I'm not driven, like Sagawa was, to be the absolute best. So my field of choices is wider than otherwise.

dps

10-18-2009, 11:33 PM

Here is a similar thread on an CMA forum asking who are the "Best internal guys alive today?"

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5824&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

David

jss

10-19-2009, 07:09 AM

As I mentioned on another thread, I find it remarkable the focus on IT/IP/IS is mainly concentrated in/on the US. When I read the list, with the exception of two instructors, the remaining individuals all live in the US and the majority of them rarely visit Europe. In fact, no European resident is noted on that list, or African, Russian, South American etc. for that matter.
I did a quick search and apparently a bit over one out of three members on this forum are from the US (To be more precise: the 'Members' Quick Link lists 12755 users; search on country 'United States' and you get 4510 matches.)
One of the most important factors in all this is (imho) that the number of native English speakers with a specific hobby, having an internet connection and interested in discussing their hobby on a forum, is large enough to sustain an online communities. If you look at the number of native Dutch speakers (ca. 22 million people vs. the 309-400 million for English(1) [both en.wikipedia.org]), it's just a whole different ball game. :)
Checking out German and French martial arts forums might be good idea.

(1) I mean, the margin of error on that number is more than four times the number of native Dutch speakers. :D

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 07:53 AM

Here is a similar thread on an CMA forum asking who are the "Best internal guys alive today?"

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5824&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
That's a classic example of a old Empty Flower thread. No substance and it sounds like a lot of 13-year old boys sitting on the street corner impressing each other with a lot of ill-informed talk about cars, how to drive, big engines, and so forth. Note the slander of someone (in this case Liang Shouyu and his cancer-survivor daughter) by someone hiding behind a pseudonym. Classically classless and that's the sort of behavior that brands everyone on the forum because they tolerate it.

My 2 cents.

Mike Sigman

Carsten Möllering

10-19-2009, 08:34 AM

Hi
As I mentioned on another thread, I find it remarkable the focus on IT/IP/IS is mainly concentrated in/on the US.
...
In fact, no European resident is noted on that list, or African, Russian, South American etc. for that matter.
... Checking out German and French martial arts forums might be good idea.

IT/IP/IS is no issue in german martial arts forums. At least not in forums concerned with Japanese martial arts.

I learned the vocbulary here on aikiweb. An I don't know whether there are teachers over here in Europe, teaching something, you would call IS or IP.

Carsten

10-19-2009, 09:06 AM

ashe

10-19-2009, 11:29 AM

From RSF, Ashe added Master Sam F.S. Chin. Not sure, but I think he teaches in NY?

Mark

hey there Mark, just thought i'd drop in to add a bit more depth to why my Sifu's name should be mentioned. (sorry if i'm a bit spammy here, but i can't pass up a such a good opportunity to plug my Sifu) ;)

a quick bit of background - he spent most of his life up to about 32 as a fighter. challenge matches etc. but also has a verifiable full contact record (selengore state heavyweight kickboxing champion 1976, won all his fights in under 40 seconds). as Mark pointed out he lives in upstate NY but he travels all over the world teaching.

the family art, I Liq Chuan is an internal Chinese martial art which is based on Zen and tai chi principles. he's been teaching around the world now for the last 10 years or so, and similar to Dan Hardens method, our stuff is based on series of drills (both solo and two person) meant to train physical sensitivities and develop the ligaments tendons and bones. (in other words IT).

although ILC is it's own system it's very lean (basic exercises, spinning and sticky hands, there, you're done), it could be studied easily as an adjunct by those looking specifically to develop IT for their aikido (in fact we have a few aikidoka who train exactly for that purpose).

i'll just post two videos in case you may not have seen any of our stuff yet. the first is just your basic "demo clip" of him in action with some students (after the 1st minute) but that won't really tell you much so i'll include a second clip which will be a bit more like watching paint dry, but it's out method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1v4RXsH8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_eGF_5S_ek

since i don't want to derail your topic, if anyone is interested in asking more questions specific to what i've posted, please PM.
(i have a TON of clips up here if you're interested) (http://www.youtube.com/user/ashehiggs)

dps

10-19-2009, 12:07 PM

10-19-2009, 01:08 PM

Since we are going outside Aikido to find the internal strength that Aikido has lost,what better place to find people online who teach internal strengtht then a CMA forum. I have posted "List of people who can teach IT to Aikidoka" on two CMA forums;

http://www.emptyflower.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=7526

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6700

David
Is there an emoticon for laughing till you pass out?

Good luck with that. I have met lineage holders, champions, and senior students who write really...really well, and they know all the lingo; upon crossing hands; they were either nothing greater than "good jujutsu men", or were laughably inept, and anywhere in between. I swear one guy I met (who was a lineage holder) my wife could probably take.
There are just as many who will argue what internal is in the ICMA as anywhere else. There are plenty of "famous" ICMA teachers who posses nothing more than good fighting skills with some basic internal components.
Of the good ones who -are- powerhouses how much you want to bet you will ever get the goods without a long, protected tenure? All the same cautions apply
Dan

Edit:
It's still worth the effort to get out and feel and check people out, though the process is, well...a process. But most forums are basically the same.

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 01:11 PM

Since we are going outside Aikido to find the internal strength that Aikido has lost,what better place to find people online who teach internal strengtht then a CMA forum.Oh stoppit. What legitimate "martial-arts forum" is full of guys who hide behind pseudonyms and chatter and bicker all day? Ever notice how on, say, AikiWeb, E-Budo, QiJin, and other forums, a "martial-artist" is considered to be someone who can sign his real name to the things that he says? Can you imagine a legit martial artist, like Ueshiba, Chen Xiao Wang, Luo De Xu, Shioda, etc., etc., using BS names to post on some trash-talking fantasy forum that has a history of constant bickering, split-ups, and so on?

If you're going to use fantasy and role-playing guys as a place to find legitimate I.S. skills, then you have no common-sense criteria. And like I said, I've felt the "I.S" of some of the guys who are on that forum... we're talking about different things. Go back through their archives and see if you can ever find a legitimate discussion of "how to" or "what's involved" in i.s. development. :rolleyes:

FWIW

Mike Sigman

akiy

10-19-2009, 01:14 PM

Hi folks,

Let's keep criticisms of other websites off of here, please. I don't think such discussions are necessary here.

Thanks,

-- Jun

10-19-2009, 01:30 PM

hey there Mark, just thought i'd drop in to add a bit more depth to why my Sifu's name should be mentioned. (sorry if i'm a bit spammy here, but i can't pass up a such a good opportunity to plug my Sifu) ;)

If I had known you'd post, I would have saved my short one. :)

Seriously, thanks for the better, more detailed post. I've heard some great things about Sam Chin.

ashe

10-19-2009, 04:29 PM

If I had known you'd post, I would have saved my short one. :)

Seriously, thanks for the better, more detailed post. I've heard some great things about Sam Chin.

most welcome, and thanks for the warm welcome to your forum!

Ernesto Lemke

10-19-2009, 04:37 PM

IT/IP/IS is no issue in german martial arts forums. At least not in forums concerned with Japanese martial arts.
I learned the vocbulary here on aikiweb. An I don't know whether there are teachers over here in Europe, teaching something, you would call IS or IP.

As far as I'm aware, the situation in Holland is much the same way. But maybe Joep will shed a different light on that. Akuzawa Sensei visited Holland a few years back but I don't know which group (or person maybe) made the arrangements for that. I do know (of) several aikidoka who went there but whether they still practice what they where exposed to or kept in touch with Aunkai, I don't know.
Maybe Rob could shed some light on this.

Far as vocabulary goes, the 'worth listening to' posters of Aikiweb and QiJin deserve the/my credit for that. I'm just trying to get a foot in the door...

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 04:53 PM

Let's keep criticisms of other websites off of here, please. I don't think such discussions are necessary here.
Good heavens... it's the way they talk to each other on that forum. My point was more like Dan's.... I'm astounded that anyone would try to find legitimate information in questionable sources; good information is simply too hard to get. Take a quick look into the archives of public forums for in-depth information on "how to" and you'll find that at least publicly, AikiWeb has more useable "how to" information than E-Budo, Aikido Journal, Uechi Ryu, various Taiji forums, and so on. Just going to a "CMA forum" is like picking out some neighborhood Kung Fu School and assuming they have the goods because they play around with "CMA". It simply makes no sense.

In several cases in my training career, I've had teachers mention "they either figure it out or they don't" or after showing something, saying "understand". The idea of "Steal this technique" from Ueshiba actually means "figure out how I did the mechanics; use your noodle". In other words, you have to do a lot of thinking, analysing, and smart evaluating. Going to a well-known chatter forum for serious information is not really good thinking.

I've got more time studying Japanese martial arts (Judo, Karate, Aikido) than I do in actively studying Chinese martial arts, so I can make the credible observation that good Japanese teachers indicate, just as often as Chinese ones do, that you have to think. Chatter doesn't get anything done. "My teacher" and "my style" don't get anything done. The ones who know something you can spot pretty quickly, once you get a foot in the door. But you gotta think.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 04:55 PM

most welcome, and thanks for the warm welcome to your forum!
Hey now!!
Look at you here on aikiweb.

Ashe, I think you should consider advertising one of Sam's seminars in the "Non Aikido martial traditions" section of the site you are on right now. While not directly related, I think many people would find Sam -very- interesting.;)
Looks like I will finally get down to train with him this winter.

Cheers
Dan

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 05:32 PM

Rob Watson

10-19-2009, 05:45 PM

Ack.... I can't stand it and I have to say something: It's KURODA Tetsusan, not Kudora. And he's really good. What he explicitly teaches, I don't know, though. When your name is Heinz, you usually don't give away the recipe to the 57 sauce. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Ack! My bad. I never forget a face but names ... no so good. Really, I know better. Sorry. I'll ask if I can edit the original post ...
Thanks

Rob Watson

10-19-2009, 06:11 PM

Ack! My bad. I never forget a face but names ... no so good. Really, I know better. Sorry. I'll ask if I can edit the original post ...
Thanks

Kuroda Tetsuzan. I messed up both names ... sheesh. 'What a maroon'.

eyrie

10-19-2009, 06:19 PM

most welcome, and thanks for the warm welcome to your forum! Took your time mate... ;)

Rob Watson

10-19-2009, 06:42 PM

hey there Mark, just thought i'd drop in to add a bit more depth to why my Sifu's name should be mentioned. (sorry if i'm a bit spammy here, but i can't pass up a such a good opportunity to plug my Sifu) ;)

a quick bit of background - he spent most of his life up to about 32 as a fighter. challenge matches etc. but also has a verifiable full contact record (selengore state heavyweight kickboxing champion 1976, won all his fights in under 40 seconds). as Mark pointed out he lives in upstate NY but he travels all over the world teaching.

the family art, I Liq Chuan is an internal Chinese martial art which is based on Zen and tai chi principles. he's been teaching around the world now for the last 10 years or so, and similar to Dan Hardens method, our stuff is based on series of drills (both solo and two person) meant to train physical sensitivities and develop the ligaments tendons and bones. (in other words IT).

although ILC is it's own system it's very lean (basic exercises, spinning and sticky hands, there, you're done), it could be studied easily as an adjunct by those looking specifically to develop IT for their aikido (in fact we have a few aikidoka who train exactly for that purpose).

i'll just post two videos in case you may not have seen any of our stuff yet. the first is just your basic "demo clip" of him in action with some students (after the 1st minute) but that won't really tell you much so i'll include a second clip which will be a bit more like watching paint dry, but it's out method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1v4RXsH8U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_eGF_5S_ek

since i don't want to derail your topic, if anyone is interested in asking more questions specific to what i've posted, please PM.
(i have a TON of clips up here if you're interested) (http://www.youtube.com/user/ashehiggs)

Cetainly looks very interseting. Keep those vids coming!

Seminar coming to Oakland California the first week of November! http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/index.php?pg=ILiqChuan

Thanks

JangChoe

10-19-2009, 07:45 PM

There's a couple of Li Tai Liang's students in the Bay Area that has it and tries to teach it. I would also add Chen Zhong Hua in Canada. I'm sure there's more hidden in the pockets of the US.

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 07:48 PM

Cetainly looks very interseting. Keep those vids coming!

Seminar coming to Oakland California the first week of November! http://www.stillnessinmotion.com/index.php?pg=ILiqChuan

ThanksI think the second clip was interesting. What Sam Chin was doing versus what people seemed to think he was saying and doing was intriguing. Sam Chin, in my personal opinion, has some relatively good stuff. Just the sort of stuff that Aikido people, Taiji people, and so on, should learn. Is it unique or astoundingly good in terms of I.S.? I don't think so. Then again, to voice my (and yours) opinion is good.... maybe more will be shown.

I could be wrong, of course, and I invite Ashe Higgs to come and meet up and show me the superior way. After all, I am just a student and I will enjoy learning from him.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

thisisnotreal

10-19-2009, 07:49 PM

Hello Ashe,
re: Master Sam Chin in Russia. May 2005
Thank you for posting the vid. I love the way Sam moves.
That smooth manipulation at 1:36 was wicked. I like the flick-chuck at the end of that. Not sure of the technical name for that.^ ^
Also; later, at 1:42 the reactions he gets are something else. Doesn't look like Sam moved much but was very disconcerting for the other guy. Taking balance at a touch, eh? How long in till you can start learning to do that?
ILC looks very interesting and very powerful. You guys must have a lot of fun.

Cheers,
Josh

p.s. Rob Watson, If you guys are serious about this list; if I understand the consensus it sounds like perhaps you should consider adding Howard Popkin and Bosco Baek (http://aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16712). OK! Good luck.

ashe

10-19-2009, 10:17 PM

Hey now!!
Look at you here on aikiweb.

Ashe, I think you should consider advertising one of Sam's seminars in the "Non Aikido martial traditions" section of the site you are on right now. While not directly related, I think many people would find Sam -very- interesting.;)
Looks like I will finally get down to train with him this winter.

Cheers
Dan

hey Dan!

yeah, i'll look around and see where to post them. trying to walk softly in someone elses house ya' know. didn't wanna come in like a bull in a china shop...

that's good that you're going to get a chance to go meet up with my Sifu. any idea when? our intensive training retreat is in february, so i should be there too about then.

I could be wrong, of course, and I invite Ashe Higgs to come and meet up and show me the superior way. After all, I am just a student and I will enjoy learning from him.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

dude, what's your deal? i've been here for like 12 hours and you drop a challenge on me? for what offense?

Hello Ashe,
Taking balance at a touch, eh? How long in till you can start learning to do that?
ILC looks very interesting and very powerful. You guys must have a lot of fun. .

re: taking balance on touch; depends of course on the relative attention levels of the two parties involved and the intensity level at which you're playing.

i certainly enjoy ILC! ;)

the thing that i think people would find most interesting about ILC is how very clear and concise the curriculum and exercises are. Sifu has spent a HUGE amount of time trying to make sure the vocabulary is very precise. In fact, ILC in the form it's taught today is essentially and English language system, so there's not so much mumbo-jumbo to sort through.

dps

10-19-2009, 10:17 PM

Does anybody know about this guy, Sifu Rudy Curry Jr.?
He teaches in Hollis, NY and East Elmhurst, NY.

http://www.youtube.com/user/sifurudycurryjr#p/u/22/xh4qAkCbp3A

His bio,
http://brothersofkuan.org/instructors.htm

His wewbsite,
http://brothersofkuan.org/

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 10:25 PM

dude, what's your deal? i've been here for like 12 hours and you drop a challenge on me? for what offense?
My mistake. I thought your comment on Rum Soaked Fist about me was meant to garner a response. Obviously you were thinking of someone else. However, I didn't issue a challenge... if you have a better way, I will be glad to learn from you.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman

10-19-2009, 10:27 PM

the thing that i think people would find most interesting about ILC is how very clear and concise the curriculum and exercises are. Sifu has spent a HUGE amount of time trying to make sure the vocabulary is very precise. In fact, ILC in the form it's taught today is essentially and English language system, so there's not so much mumbo-jumbo to sort through.There are a number of posts archived on AikiWeb that are very explicit how-to's and in English. Can you give us an example of the plain-spoken descriptions that Sam Chin gives, as a comparison?

Thanks.

Mike Sigman

dps

10-19-2009, 10:46 PM

Is there an emoticon for laughing till you pass out?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :eek: :eek: :dead:

David

ashe

10-19-2009, 11:02 PM

However, I didn't issue a challenge... if you have a better way, I will be glad to learn from you.

Mike Sigman

my mistake. asking for "a lesson" is a traditional way of issuing challenges in Chinese martial arts.

we're not too far apart, so if we ever get the chance we can meet up and share our thoughts and get some training in. i always enjoy an opportunity to see where i can improve.

T Can you give us an example of the plain-spoken descriptions that Sam Chin gives, as a comparison?

Thanks.

Mike Sigman

as i get time i'll be happy to look through the aikiweb archives, but i think i might find it difficult to draw direct comparisons since we have NO TECHNIQUE whatsoever, only drills, but the drills are designed to build that connection from hand to foot, to build up the connective tissue (ligaments, tendons and bones) and to develop high levels of concentration and awareness on yourself.

10-19-2009, 11:25 PM

hey Dan!

yeah, i'll look around and see where to post them. trying to walk softly in someone elses house ya' know. didn't wanna come in like a bull in a china shop...

that's good that you're going to get a chance to go meet up with my Sifu. any idea when? our intensive training retreat is in february, so i should be there too about then..
Hey bud
I've had about a half dozen people tell me I reminded them of Sam's approach, another one just recently (when I'm not doing MMA style work with it -just crossing hands), that's why I am intrigued. I hear he will let you play as long as people are up front, open and not D______k's. Which I'm not.
I'll shoot you a PM to see if there are any particulars.
Does he incorporate breath training?

Cheers
Dan

ashe

10-19-2009, 11:44 PM

Hey bud
I've had about a half dozen people tell me I reminded them of Sam's approach, another one just recently (when I'm not doing MMA style work with it -just crossing hands), that's why I am intrigued. I hear he will let you play as long as people are up front, open and not D______k's. Which I'm not.
I'll shoot you a PM to see if there are any particulars.
Does he incorporate breath training?

Cheers
Dan

Yeah Sifu always let's people touch, although that window may close soon-ish (within 5 years or so).

we do incorporate breath training. in fact i was recently opened up to a whole new level of it last weekend.

Sifu talks a lot about how "the breath conditions the body". the basic idea is to use the breath to propel force from the ming men.

in all honesty, this is the next level of breakthrough i need to make i think. of our 15 basic exercises, the tu'na breathing is my weakest and i believe is something holding me back from progressing to a much higher level then i am now, so i would rather not try to elaborate any more than that. i'll let you ask him about it directly when you see him. ;)

Andrew Prochnow

10-20-2009, 01:08 AM

I want to play. This is starting to get good. Where and when is playtime?

Andrew Prochnow

ashe

10-20-2009, 01:30 AM

Mike Sigman

10-20-2009, 08:17 AM

my mistake. asking for "a lesson" is a traditional way of issuing challenges in Chinese martial arts. Except I didn't say that. "I will learn from you" is a wry but fair comment you make to someone who is claiming to know something. we're not too far apart, so if we ever get the chance we can meet up and share our thoughts and get some training in. i always enjoy an opportunity to see where i can improve. I'll be happy to see what you can do.
as i get time i'll be happy to look through the aikiweb archives, but i think i might find it difficult to draw direct comparisons since we have NO TECHNIQUE whatsoever, only drills, but the drills are designed to build that connection from hand to foot, to build up the connective tissue (ligaments, tendons and bones) and to develop high levels of concentration and awareness on yourself.It only takes a moment to check out how developed someone is, so it would be interesting to what you've developed after... what? How long?

There are some ILQ guys on QiJin, BTW. They don't go in for trash-talking on QiJin though, I'll have to admit. I've met one or two guys who have studied with Sam Chin and some who have studied with some of the other teachers who were previously mentioned. A couple of valid questions are "who has good I.S. skills", but another important question is "who is teaching them effectively so that a students training time isn't dragged out forever?". Fair question, right? I always take those two things into account when people ask me if I recommend any given teacher.

Naturally, I don't want to trash talk any teacher since it's disrespectful and can also come back to haunt, but I am interested in having and giving honest evaluations to would-be students asking for my opinion. That's why I ask questions, visit people, and so on. I want to be in a position where I can give clinically accurate and honest answers.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

10-20-2009, 10:18 AM

I want to play. This is starting to get good. Where and when is playtime?

Andrew Prochnow
We can always go together Andy. My only interest is in Sam himself though. Maybe we can play with Sam and then go play with Howard and friends on Lon-g-..Island.
Then again if you are in for a road trip to Canada maybe we can hook up with Liu Cheng De next time he is in. He has some power and skill and is willing to play as well, as long as you keep it to just freestyle push hands, You have to leave your board shorts and 5 oz gloves at home!
Cheers
Dan

10-20-2009, 10:33 AM

Lol. Not sure. You're in MA? If you wanna play with some of our guys we have Johnny Kuo in PA or anytime you're in the NYC or poughkeepsie area there's plenty of guys. Otherwise you'll have to head south to NC.
Starting nexty year or so we're going to start doing a lot more workshops domestically. (mostly we've been in eastern Europe).
LOL, He's one of mine Ashe!
You'd love him. Big guy, very soft, he's been doing this stuff since he was a teenager and looooves to roll, loves to go to MMA and BJJ places, though he can play nice as well and just test power and stand up skills in the traditional sense. I'm not talking strength here; I'm talking soft power and the ability to create change. I think he would be happier feeling Sam himself or maybe Dave.
Cheers
Dan

David Orange

10-20-2009, 10:52 AM

I want to play. This is starting to get good. Where and when is playtime?

Andy,

I was going to say if you're in MA, you should just go see Dan.

And then I remembered you from Dan's seminar!

Thanks for all the help. Hope all is well with the family and in Iraq.

Best to you all.

David

David Orange

10-20-2009, 10:53 AM

Big guy, very soft, he's been doing this stuff since he was a teenager and looooves to roll, loves to go to MMA and BJJ places, though he can play nice as well and just test power and stand up skills in the traditional sense. I'm not talking strength here; I'm talking soft power and the ability to create change.

Excellent description of a very big and very unusual guy. Very interesting power. You did a great job with Andy.

Best.

David

10-20-2009, 11:12 AM

Excellent description of a very big and very unusual guy. Very interesting power. You did a great job with Andy.

Best.

David
Ghosty, issuing, and then bam, knockout power (trust me, you don't want to ever get hit by him!). Try throwing him-it's freaking hilarious; he sort of stands there looking at people with that distracted and bemused half smile of his! He's not much for traditonal stuff though, I can't get him to go down that road.

As you saw and heard; he speaks so softly and so well and has an open spirit about him. Then again, he is seeing what I have seen, There is no reason to "talk smack" to anyone from the TMA, when after crossing hands with them "on their turf" he's not the one continually being "surprised," now is he?
In fact, I guess loking at the TMA from his perspective; internal power in MMA, why would he ever want to do a traditonal art?
Imagine though, David, he's all of 28 yrs old. He's only just begun. Argh!!
Cheers
Dan

Rob Watson

10-20-2009, 11:16 AM

PS
As I mentioned on another thread, I find it remarkable the focus on IT/IP/IS is mainly concentrated in/on the US. When I read the list, with the exception of two instructors, the remaining individuals all live in the US and the majority of them rarely visit Europe. In fact, no European resident is noted on that list, or African, Russian, South American etc. for that matter.

By all means send in some names! I know there are a great number of folks willing to travel far and wide to get IT.

For my own self needs I'm trying to find folks a bit closer to home so I can get regular 'hands on' time. A seminar here and there is good if that is all one can manage but regular training with immediate correction will be far superior.

Thanks

10-20-2009, 11:38 AM

By all means send in some names! I know there are a great number of folks willing to travel far and wide to get IT.

For my own self needs I'm trying to find folks a bit closer to home so I can get regular 'hands on' time. A seminar here and there is good if that is all one can manage but regular training with immediate correction will be far superior.

Thanks
Thats the hard part though. As Mike pointed out above- how do you recommend; based on what/ For me, when I look at all of it the things I have felt and or have seen:
1. There are guys with a lot of power but maybe it is quasi-internal simple frame stuff. Make no mistake it can be tons of power but it is incomplete
2. There are guys with soft jujutsu-this includes a few ICMA teachers who like to talk about internal power, but they really don't have a clue. They are confusing people (who don't know any better) with their soft jujutsu They can toss you like no ones business- but it's not IP/aiki
3. There are guys with internal power, but lack the skill in using it in fluid resistance at speed. They are hobbyists.
4. There are guys with IP who really cannot teach it well
5. There are guys with only a fraction of the big picture but who can teach what they know really well
6. And any number of folks in-between in all of the above.

I make it easy. I don't recommend anyone. I tell people to go out and feel and make their own choices. Then they own their choices.
Why? It's the only way I currently know to be fair and open about it
Cheers
Dan

Ron Tisdale

10-20-2009, 11:56 AM

we have Johnny Kuo in PA

Is he near the Philly area? I might be interested in stopping by if he is.

Best,
Ron

John Brockington

10-20-2009, 12:55 PM

Ashe-

Who/where is your colleague in NC?

John

M. McPherson

10-20-2009, 12:55 PM

Is he near the Philly area? I might be interested in stopping by if he is.

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron! Hope all is well. He's actually out in Lancaster:

http://mindbodykungfu.net/content/welcome

Best regards,
Murray

Thomas Campbell

10-20-2009, 01:02 PM

I tell people to go out and feel and make their own choices. Then they own their choices.
Why? It's the only way I currently know to be fair and open about it
Cheers
Dan

Nicely put.

ashe

10-20-2009, 02:18 PM

Ashe-

Who/where is your colleague in NC?

John

http://mindfulkungfu.com/content/classes-events

Ben Fisher. good guy, but an academic, not a fighter. if you want to see some of our training methods like spinning hands he's very good.

gregstec

10-20-2009, 03:10 PM

Hey Ron! Hope all is well. He's actually out in Lancaster:

http://mindbodykungfu.net/content/welcome

Best regards,
Murray

Hey Ron, looks like he is my backyard...

Greg

John Brockington

10-20-2009, 04:26 PM

Ashe-

Thanks for the info- it looks like I may have to drive to Duke next time I am in Chapel Hill (via Highway 15-501, or the "Highway of Sorrow" as it is called by Duke hoops fans) to meet up.

John

Mike Sigman

10-20-2009, 04:31 PM

I make it easy. I don't recommend anyone. I tell people to go out and feel and make their own choices. Then they own their choices.
Why? It's the only way I currently know to be fair and open about it
I'm tell 'em the same thing. And I always suggest that it's very important to find a guy they like and who seems like a nice guy, because that's how so much progress was made over the last 30 or so years. People I like and I think are serious, I give the best advice I can. :D

FWIW

Mike Sigman

brian p

10-20-2009, 04:57 PM

Hi folks,

Let's keep criticisms of other websites off of here, please. I don't think such discussions are necessary here.

Thanks,

-- Jun

Thank you ma'am. EF.net's management feels the same way.

Ernesto Lemke

10-20-2009, 05:04 PM

By all means send in some names! I know there are a great number of folks willing to travel far and wide to get IT.

I didn't mean to suggest I had any names or suggestions in mind myself when I made that remark. Actually, I was sorta hoping to stumble on the European equivalent, caliber wise that is by reputation and both physical and verbal testimony, of those that are considered 'authoritive' in the US. Two of which who are posting on this very thread.

Doing the rounds is costly both financially and time and energy wise. I wouldn't go out of my way to train with a mere 'someone' unless I had it on good grounds it'd be worth the investement. So although I can see the benefit in feeling other people, I'd choose spending time focusing on what I'm currently doing over the mere change to encounter something beneficial any ol' day.
Cheers

Ernesto Lemke

Rob Watson

10-20-2009, 06:52 PM

Thats the hard part though. As Mike pointed out above- how do you recommend; based on what/ For me, when I look at all of it the things I have felt and or have seen:
1. There are guys with a lot of power but maybe it is quasi-internal simple frame stuff. Make no mistake it can be tons of power but it is incomplete
2. There are guys with soft jujutsu-this includes a few ICMA teachers who like to talk about internal power, but they really don't have a clue. They are confusing people (who don't know any better) with their soft jujutsu They can toss you like no ones business- but it's not IP/aiki
3. There are guys with internal power, but lack the skill in using it in fluid resistance at speed. They are hobbyists.
4. There are guys with IP who really cannot teach it well
5. There are guys with only a fraction of the big picture but who can teach what they know really well
6. And any number of folks in-between in all of the above.

I make it easy. I don't recommend anyone. I tell people to go out and feel and make their own choices. Then they own their choices.
Why? It's the only way I currently know to be fair and open about it
Cheers
Dan

Hello Mr. Harden,
Yup, kind of what pushed me over the edge and make this thread was your seminar for instructors (at least that seems to be the message I got from the postings of late). I'm trying to figure out who was there and if any of those folks are nearer to my location.

Now, if you would just be so kind as post a list of names .... I don't worry about fair and open but for now I would prefer someone that has been to your seminar or spent some time at 'the barn'.

Eventually I'll run through the list I've got so far and see if any of those folks will answer "been to the barn or seminar-know anybody who has?" and of they are willing to share. I'm pretty sure there are more folks that have been to the seminar and/or 'barnside' than are on the list so far ...

For now I've got the host of folks that go through seminars at ADV (Ikeda, Gleason, Angier, Ledyard). I'm looking for more than seminars as well (once a year ain't gonna cut it).

Thanks

thisisnotreal

10-20-2009, 10:21 PM

Thank you ma'am. EF.net's management feels the same way.
Hi Brian, fyi; Jun is a `sir` and not a ma'am.

Ron Tisdale

10-21-2009, 11:14 AM

Kool, thanks, maybe if I get up that way we can look him up...and thanks to you too Mark!
B,
R
Hey Ron, looks like he is my backyard...

Greg

Rob Watson

10-30-2009, 03:03 PM

I didn't mean to suggest I had any names or suggestions in mind myself when I made that remark.

Lest there be any confusion: The list I posted is not a recommendation by me (I have less than limited skills in this area) or anyone else. I compiled a list of folks that had been mentioned to be participants in a Dan Harden seminar. Also, folks that had previously been mentioned as possessing some significant aspect of IP/aiki and willing to teach.

I invited others to add to the list.

I only mention Dan Harden by name because he has gone out of his way to take on instructing aikido folks that are going to go on and teach what they learn in the aikido community (at least that is the impression I have of the events/comments). Originally, I wanted to know who these folks are and how can I get my hands on them. That is all.

I admit my choice of phrasing was poor (IT club, don't talk about IT club, etc) as this carries much more baggage than my feeble attempt at humor intended-my sense of frustration is captured pretty well.

Dan Harden holds seminar for aikido instructors! Who are they? That is all. I just wish more of them were closer to me so I could get more direct and regular contact. I'm selfish that way.

Robert Cowham

11-11-2009, 01:43 PM

For a rather different take on IT I would recommend Peter Ralston and Cheng Hsin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ILczURN99k

There are a variety of aikido people who have trained with him for varying lengths of time.

http://chenghsin.com/chenghsin-main.html

Rob Watson

11-12-2009, 02:51 PM

...

Robert Cowham

11-12-2009, 06:20 PM

Re Peter Ralston, I have felt an uproot from one of his senior students, and it was like being hit by an express train.

It's not all about power - a large focus is on yielding/speed. But power is certainly there.

Anyway, I would recommend people check out Cheng Hsin if you have an opportunity.

kironin

11-13-2009, 09:32 AM

Haven't been on aikiweb much lately.

Interesting thread, going through my mind too is that while yes, we have a separate ranking for what you could call our IT, there are those among the high ranked who were trained by Tohei Sensei for many years that I have felt a whole another level from and I have been trained by that are at the top of my priority list to seek out because they also teach well. (some have now passed away, because that is an older generation mostly) I have a reasonable confidence in what I know because my teacher that I started back in the early 90's and his teacher were actively interested and actively cultivating in their own unique ways such internal skills. Unfortunately, not being on the east coast, I can't just hop in a car and visit some of the people mentioned. In person, I'd rather have the attitude that I don't assume I know anything until I experience it. If it connects with anything I may know that will manifest itself soon enough and those discoveries are fun to make. However :D , one of the plans in my business for the next year is soon to start traveling out of Texas, so I would love to know of people doing this that are open to visitors interested in comparing notes and who I could learn from.

Well, first of all let me go back to something that I don't think has really penetrated very clearly.... these skills aren't unique to Aikido nor were they unique to Daito Ryu, nor are concepts for different styles/factions unique, and so on. Notice that Tohei has a separate ranking for the ki/kokyu skills outside of his Aikido ranking. Note that O-Sensei's cryptic quotes are obliquely sometimes and specific many times in quoting standard Chinese directions/admonitions about these skills.

When people start talking about "ki" and they have Yin-Yang dichotomy and "A-Un" and Five Elements, etc., we're talking about the same basic skills with the same basic rules and principles. Some Koryu or Aikido faction that uses different techniques and applications, that's fine but the basic ki skills by necessity must be the same, depending upon how purely they're done.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

11-13-2009, 09:36 AM

However :D , one of the plans in my business for the next year is soon to start traveling out of Texas, so I would love to know of people doing this that are open to visitors interested in comparing notes and who I could learn from.

I'm near the Pittsburgh area, so if you find yourself there, let me know.

kironin

11-13-2009, 09:51 AM

Interesting Marc,

My Iaido teacher lives in north eastern Pennsylvannia, I have planned to spend time up in that region anyway to be able to do some intensive training with him, so would be interesting to drop in. Since my teacher's teacher trained under and received his first several dan rankings under Imaizumi Sensei and when I first started we were basically using Imaizumi's nomenclature on our technique lists, would be like coming home to visit.

Robert:

I am very fortunate that my teacher, Imaizumi Shizuo, has always encouraged me to go anywhere and train with anyone to learn what I can about budo. I typically return from these trainings with my eyes more "open" than before to see what my teacher is doing (that I was not ready to "see" yet). He then feeds my awareness and gives me more stuff to work on. I realized that the only way that I would really be able to pursue this path was to open my own school so that I could ramp up my own training.

I consider myself very fortunate to have experienced some of the names on that list. Mr. Harden has been remarkably gracious in following up my participation in his seminar with a weekend of training at my school. I plan on continuing my work with him. He has an awful lot of stuff to offer in a friendly, funny and brutally honest manner (my type of environment). Ushiro Kenji has been another person who has remarkably gracious towards me. My school is now the only place that you can train directly with him in the United States. He will be at my school next weekend (10/24& 10/25) and there are still some spaces left for people to attend. I now also travel to Japan several times a year to train directly with him. His students, like Dan's students, are wonderful people whom you cannot help but become friendly with. Training with them is like training at Shin-Budo Kai. It is a place of friendship and honest training. These remarkable teachers create training environments that are genuine and unique.

I would be nothing other than a greedy rectum if I were to hold onto what I am learning. I am fortunate to have a school full of open-minded martial artists who are interested in this "grand experiment" that is my teaching. I aspire to be like Imaizumi Shizuo, who always says that he is passing on what he has learned from his teachers. He does not claim "ownership" despite the fifty years of personal touch that he now gives back to his teaching. I always strive to do the same and pass on what others have been gracious enough to share with me. I hope that as I learn more, my teachings can be a better reflection of those wonderful people who so openly and graciously share what they know with me. Until then, my students humor me and suffer through the little that I know to date :) !

Marc Abrams