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Rabih Shanshiry
09-24-2009, 10:49 PM
Came across an interesting quote by Stanley Pranin:

"In the annals of aikido, there are perhaps ten or so teachers who have commanded universal respect for their high level of skill...."

Anyone care to opine whom those ten may be?

Rabih Shanshiry
09-24-2009, 10:51 PM
I'll start with the five heavies that probably everyone can agree on:

Shioda
Mochizuki
Nishio
Saito
Tohei

Who else belongs there?

sorokod
09-25-2009, 03:02 AM
I believe that you can ask Stanley Pranin directly at http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/

Flintstone
09-25-2009, 03:49 AM
I'll start with the five heavies that probably everyone can agree on:

Shioda
Mochizuki
Nishio
Saito
Tohei

Who else belongs there?
I would add Tomiki here. No doubt.

Carsten Möllering
09-25-2009, 04:22 AM
Yamaguchi Seigo

Flintstone
09-25-2009, 04:26 AM
Shirata and Chiba. Respect is the word.

Aikilove
09-25-2009, 06:01 AM
Of all great past and present instructors of aikido my list of 10 true canons (i.e. those which have had most influence in the shape of aikido and by which all others are judged) is this... in no particular order...

Inoue Noriaki
Osawa Sr.
Saito Sr.
Tohei K.
Shioda
Yamaguchi
Shirata
Tada
Tomiki
Mochizuki

Not including the founder himself or his son and present doshu.

Flintstone
09-25-2009, 06:14 AM
My own personal list would go like this:

Mochizuki
Shioda
Tomiki
Saito
Chiba
Nishio
Shirata
Isoyama
Abe
Tohei

In no particular order.

gdandscompserv
09-25-2009, 07:16 AM
WHAaat?
:eek:
No Seagal?
:D

Rabih Shanshiry
09-25-2009, 07:48 AM
I would add Tomiki here. No doubt.

Tomiki is a giant of a man within Aikido - no doubt. And one of the majors as far influence and innovation.

But this list is for the Big Ten in recognized technical ability. I haven't heard/read much regarding his actual skill level.

By way of parallel, if this were a list of top ten most influential aikidoka, then no doubt Doshu Kisshomaru would be on the list for his contributions to the dissemination of aikido and to the development of its underlying philosophy. However, I'm not sure he belongs there if we are talking about the top ten most skilled practicioners.

Can anyone shed some light on Tomiki as a martial artist?

Rabih Shanshiry
09-25-2009, 08:52 AM
Of all great past and present instructors of aikido my list of 10 true canons (i.e. those which have had most influence in the shape of aikido and by which all others are judged) is this... in no particular order...

Inoue Noriaki
Osawa Sr.
Saito Sr.
Tohei K.
Shioda
Yamaguchi
Shirata
Tada
Tomiki
Mochizuki

Not including the founder himself or his son and present doshu.

Thanks for the list - some names I wouldn't have even thought of.

Interesting inclusion of Inoue - does he count as Aikido? I also noted that you dropped Nishio from the list.

If you remove the consideration of influence and just focus on skill set, would your list change?

Howard Popkin
09-25-2009, 12:35 PM
What about a big ten list for this generation ? :)

David Orange
09-25-2009, 01:23 PM
WHAaat?
:eek:
No Seagal?
:D

He WOULD have been mentioned in the second post if my internet had been working. I TRIED to get him on there!

:p

David

David Orange
09-25-2009, 01:31 PM
Tomiki is a giant of a man within Aikido - no doubt. And one of the majors as far influence and innovation.

But this list is for the Big Ten in recognized technical ability. I haven't heard/read much regarding his actual skill level.
Can anyone shed some light on Tomiki as a martial artist?

Hella great. And his methods are one of the most important lines of aikido in the modern world. So I think he definitely belongs among the Big Ten.

Best to you.

David

Rabih Shanshiry
09-25-2009, 07:52 PM
Even when most aikidoka plainly laugh at Shodokan big time in Spain. The best thing you would hear here is "that" that is NOT Aikido.

Sad but true. How is it anywhere else in the world?

There is only 1 shodokan dojo in all of New England and none in my state. Outside of Ohio, for whatever reason, shodokan dojos are hard to find.

...rab

JO
09-25-2009, 09:02 PM
What about a big ten list for this generation ? :)

OK, I'll bite. Trouble is I've only experienced a small fraction of the aikido instructors around. So here I go based on my limited exposure (and therefore showing the bias of my geography and organisational affiliation). I'm defining "this generation" as anybody still actively teaching. Here is a list of instructors I would recommend seeing whenever the chance arises.

Tamura: Best aikido I've seen in person. Could watch him for hours without getting bored. Not sure any of the top tens on the other lists earlier in this thread have anything on him.
Chiba: Powerful technique, just pray you get him on a good day.
Konigsberg: Probably the aikido that has impressed me the most from actually getting a good opportunity to take ukemi. Strong, martial but without the brute force. I grab him and he takes my center right on contact.
Berthiaume: My first instructor and a worthy heir to Kanai sensei. Explosive aikido, get some good horizontal air time.
Waite: Another teacher to keep you moving. Impressed me a few years ago by bouncing me back in kokyu nage no matter how much "weight" I through at him.
Dianne: Chiba's style with a smile. Being thrown by her is like hitting a brick wall.(The last four are to me great examples of how it is possible to reach the level of one's teachers)
Doran: Only seen him once, but I got to feel his technique and I hope to do so again.
Takeguchi: Also only seen him once, but it was a very interesting look at aspects I hadn't worked on much and in a way that I actually think I learned something.
Yamada: A true travelling missionary of aikido. Just be ready to work on your basics and not much else.

Well I didn't make it to ten. I need to get out more I guess.

Nafis Zahir
09-26-2009, 01:26 AM
Not in any serious order, but:

Chiba
Saito
Yamada
Kanai
Tamura
Toyoda
Nishio
Tohei
Shioda
Yamaguchi

batemanb
09-26-2009, 02:19 AM
Quite hard to pick out Ten or so specifically. I don't see any reason why any of the Ueshiba family should be missing from the list. Can't limit to 10 so am going for the "or so", in no particular order other than when they pop into my head.....

Kaiso
Ueshiba Kisshomaru
Ueshiba Moriteru
Yamaguchi
Arikawa
Osawa Sr.
Saito Sr.
Endo
Tohei K.
Shioda
Shirata
Tada
Nishio
Mochizuki
Yamada
Chiba
Tamura
Tissier
Toyoda
Abbe
Saotome

I'm sure there are more.

aikilouis
09-26-2009, 06:02 AM
Why not simply ask Stanley Pranin ?

Because as far as most of us are concerned, trying to answer this question can only lead to useless speculation. Who belongs in the club ? Does membership reward skill or the publicity made around them ?

wideawakedreamer
09-27-2009, 11:40 PM
O Sensei doesn't count?

mickeygelum
09-28-2009, 09:52 AM
Greetings,

I am curious as to the reason my post inre to Tomiki Shihan was removed ?

Mickey

BC
09-28-2009, 03:16 PM
Quite hard to pick out Ten or so specifically. I don't see any reason why any of the Ueshiba family should be missing from the list. Can't limit to 10 so am going for the "or so", in no particular order other than when they pop into my head.....

Kaiso
Ueshiba Kisshomaru
Ueshiba Moriteru
Yamaguchi
Arikawa
Osawa Sr.
Saito Sr.
Endo
Tohei K.
Shioda
Shirata
Tada
Nishio
Mochizuki
Yamada
Chiba
Tamura
Tissier
Toyoda
Abbe
Saotome

I'm sure there are more.

I would add Tohei A.

Rabih Shanshiry
09-29-2009, 01:54 AM
O Sensei doesn't count?

O Sensei does indeed count. Talk about "hidden in plain sight." With Tomiki, I'm now up to a core of seven:

O Sensei
Shioda
Mochizuki
Tohei
Tomiki
Saito
Nishio

Still in the hunt (personally) for the last three slots. Lots of strong candidates mentioned here already to consider.

As for the couple suggestions to consult with Pranin - I will absolutely seek out his opinion and also Dr. Goldsbury's. I first wanted to see if we what we came up with on our own. It's a fun question to ponder and truly about the journey more than the destination.

Rabih Shanshiry
09-29-2009, 01:56 AM
:blush: Greetings,

I am curious as to the reason my post inre to Tomiki Shihan was removed ?

Mickey

Mickey,

I think it got moved over to a new thread Jun created around Shodokan Aikido when he saw the thread start to wander from the OT.

FWIW: I've added him to my Big Ten list based, in part, on your and Ellis' feedback.

dps
09-29-2009, 07:16 AM
Mr.Gelum,

Did you miss the thread by Jun stating, "PLEASE START NEW THREADS FOR NEW TOPICS"
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14738

David

mickeygelum
09-29-2009, 07:45 AM
No, Mr. Skaggs...the response was an answer to the question posed by Mr.Shanshiry,
Can anyone shed some light on Tomiki as a martial artist?

Therefore, your ill-fated attempt to achieve internet fame as a keyboard warrior in the virtual world of Walter Mitty, has backfired again.

''Cut and Paste" well, Mr. Skaggs,

Mickey

dps
09-29-2009, 07:54 AM
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16889 Post #4

As Walter Mitty sits at his keyboard ready for another day's battle on the internet, he hears the sound of his computer ta-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa-pocketa.

David

rroeserr
09-29-2009, 02:34 PM
Shirata
O'sensei
Remo Williams
Frank Dux - from Bloodsport
Steven Seagal
The Guy from American Ninja
John Matrix
Jules Winnfield
General Zod
Sam Ting

What was this a list of again???

Flintstone
09-29-2009, 03:32 PM
Shirata
O'sensei
Remo Williams
Frank Dux - from Bloodsport
Steven Seagal
The Guy from American Ninja
John Matrix
Jules Winnfield
General Zod
Sam Ting

What was this a list of again???
Ok, ok.

Aikilove
09-29-2009, 04:41 PM
Thanks for the list - some names I wouldn't have even thought of.

Interesting inclusion of Inoue - does he count as Aikido? I also noted that you dropped Nishio from the list.

If you remove the consideration of influence and just focus on skill set, would your list change?

You're welcome!
As you have figured out it is quite hard to limit oneself to only few (ten in this case). It is much easier to extend it to 15 or 20 so one doesn't have to exclude some favourites. Especially if they are close to you.
However, one has to try to be objective.
Regarding Inoue: Back in the days he taught wherever and whenever the founder couldn't (read Stanley Pranins article: Aikido's forgotten pioneer (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=53) over at AJ). More importantly for this list of greats is that most of the great ones on the list thus far that actually saw him stated that Inoue was second only to the founder and was a spitting image of him on the mat. So I would say he definitely belongs.

/J

L. Camejo
09-30-2009, 11:32 PM
"In the annals of aikido, there are perhaps ten or so teachers who have commanded universal respect for their high level of skill...."Interesting quote - "commanded universal respect" for "high level of skill". The big question here is how Stan Pranin defines skill in this context.

If we assume that this skill is actual Aiki skill i.e. - the person is able to execute Aiki waza or principle regardless of Uke's level of collusion or not, then the number can't be very high imho.

Of the names listed how many exhibit skill in Aiki from an objective perspective? Based on the typical Aikido training paradigm, is it possible to obtain a really objective perspective in this case?

Interesting questions imho. Many things can be mistaken for skill imho.

Best
LC