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Suru
09-14-2009, 07:01 PM
Too many "wanna-be chiefs" and not enough injins.

My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.

I don't know whether your phrase contains hatred, ignorance, or both, but I highly recommend not using derogatory ethnic words unless spoken through a character in a fictional work.

Drew

mjhacker
09-14-2009, 08:10 PM
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.
That's a pretty wide racist brush you paint with. What a condescending, presumptive thing to say. What a way to live.

I'm sure you know that calling them "American," let alone "Indians" is the real insult, right?

Is it safe to assume you know the names by which each Native tribe refers to itself and that you use said nomenclature when speaking of them rather than the names given to them by their enemies?

For instance, all of my "Navajo" students called themselves Dine' ("the people"). A few others are:

Apache ("the enemy") = Ndee ("the people")
Comanche ("they fight with us") = Numinu ("the people")
Mohawk ("man-eaters") = Kanienkehaka ("people of the flint")

Suru
09-14-2009, 09:52 PM
[QUOTE=
I'm sure you know that calling them "American," let alone "Indians" is the real insult, right?
[/QUOTE]

My worst fear is materializing; the ignorance continues.

Drew

Tinyboy344
09-14-2009, 10:02 PM
How did a "sensei" topic turn into one about racism... Hmm... Easy mates, eeeaaasyyyy....!!! Where's the Aikido spirit, "peace and harmony" :ai: ... oh... It's GONE!!! :eek: Someone bust out the pipe, please! :p

mjhacker
09-14-2009, 10:51 PM
My worst fear is materializing; the ignorance continues.
Thank you for the well-reasoned, thoughtful discussion.

C. David Henderson
09-15-2009, 08:15 AM
[It's important to] know the names by which each Native tribe refers to itself and that you use said nomenclature when speaking of them rather than the names given to them by their enemies?

For instance, all of my "Navajo" students called themselves Dine' ("the people"). A few others are:

Apache ("the enemy") = Ndee ("the people")
Comanche ("they fight with us") = Numinu ("the people")
Mohawk ("man-eaters") = Kanienkehaka ("people of the flint")

This is my experience as well. If you go into the governmental offices of one of the Tewa pueblos of the Rio Grande Valley area, you'll see a seal with their name for their people in their language.

Thanks for posting Michael.

cdh

Keith Larman
09-15-2009, 09:16 AM
Interesting... I'd always thought of the word "injins" as a vestige of Hollywood depictions of the "twang" of old west speech (which was probably more Hollywood than reality). Kind of like the way Gabby Hayes would slaughter the language in old westerns ("yer durn tootin' you young whippersnapper!"). So is it the pronunciation of "injins" that is offensive, or "indians"? I just never thought of "injuns" as slang as much as a regional "pronunciation". Kinda like my friends in the deep south who I often can't understand right away over the phone even though we're ostensibly speaking the same language... ;)

I had just assumed "injins" was more a pronunciation in an "old western" way when saying indians rather than slang for the word 'Indians'. Interesting... Gotta read more...

Ironically I can hear the TV in the next room playing a commercial for "the best Indian gaming in town" as I type this. Pechanga Indian Casino (what they call it).

Just FWIW.

Hogan
09-15-2009, 09:49 AM
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.

I don't know whether your phrase contains hatred, ignorance, or both, but I highly recommend not using derogatory ethnic words unless spoken through a character in a fictional work.

Drew

Oh Lord, get over yourself.

Mike Sigman
09-15-2009, 11:13 AM
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.
What your coach said to you last year shouldn't pre-occupy your mind this year. Move on. Widen your horizons.

ninjaqutie
09-15-2009, 11:43 AM
Hhhmm... I have Native American (Blackfoot/ Niitsitapi) heritage and I didn't take it to be offensive at all. When I read it, I took it as he was being lighthearted and talking like they do in the old west movies. I am not saying talking that way is PC, but I don't think that he was trying to offend anyone with it.

allowedcloud
09-15-2009, 12:16 PM
I always thought they (Indians) found it amusing we still use that term for them because of some white guy 500 years ago who didn't understand geography.

Kevin Leavitt
09-15-2009, 12:29 PM
I always thought they (Native Americans) found it amusing we still use that term for them because of some white guy 500 years ago who didn't understand geography.

whadda ya mean by "white"? thought it was those of Hispanic culture that coined the term "Indian".

They don't think of themselves as "white". I also don't think of myself as Caucasian either since my heritage is not from the Caucas region, but on every EEO form that is the option I seem to have. Oh well.

Keith Larman
09-15-2009, 12:49 PM
Whadda ya mean by Hispanic? South america? Spain? What?

And white... Sheesh, I am personally insulted by that. I'm more a pale-ish pink. Unless I get within a few feet of actual sunlight in which case I turn reddish. I have no idea how the Caucasus mountains got into the mix...

Heard a young lady erupt at a fast food place because someone asked if she was hispanic. She said she was a latina and her family was from Mexico. So she was a Mexican Latina. Her friend laughed and said "Girl, you were born in Lancaster..." That's when I decided I'm just going to nod a lot and never, ever ask about any ethnicity.

Except for with my daughter. I'm 1/4 Norwegian combined with a 1/4 from Wales and the rest -- a grab bag best I can tell. My wife is a "purebred" girl of Japanese heritage, but she's something between a 3rd and 4th generation American, so she's about as Japanese as I am Norwegian (read that -- not at all). Heck, her family was vastly more influenced by Hawaiian culture than Japanese.

Our daughter... Well... What the hell... I told her she can check anything she wants on forms including "who the hell knows".

On the rest of the discussion... Yeah, gotta say Hogan up above pretty much said what most are probably thinking...

Kent Enfield
09-15-2009, 01:08 PM
whadda ya mean by "white"? thought it was those of Hispanic culture that coined the term "Indian".
Since when are Italians Hispanic?

jss
09-15-2009, 01:55 PM
Since when are Italians Hispanic?
You mean Genoese and not Italians, I presume? ;)

And one nice anecdote about 'Hispanic':
Some years ago a U.S. company sent a consultant at their Belgian office to give a talk about the policies concerning minorities. During the Q&A one employee asked what he meant with the term 'minority'. The answer was "African-Americans, Hispanics, etc." To which the Belgian employee asked if this implied that all employees of the Spanish office were considered a 'minority'.

jss
09-15-2009, 02:15 PM
I always thought they (Indians) found it amusing we still use that term for them because of some white guy 500 years ago who didn't understand geography.
Now let's be fair here: shouldn't Chris be allowed to share the blame with the guy who named the river Indus? :)

Kevin Leavitt
09-15-2009, 02:28 PM
I thought I was doing good when we adopted our daughter from China. Then when you talk to chinese people, they ask from what province and then that gets into a whole discussion about her ethnicity. You see there are 54 some odd distinct ethnic groups of chinese!

Shadowfax
09-15-2009, 03:16 PM
I am 1/4 native American Pequot/Huron. I really don't find it worth my time or energy to get offended over a slang term that has been around for hundreds of years.

My understanding is the title came about simply because when Columbus found the Americas he had been looking for a shorter trade route to to the West Indies. Thinking he had found it when he arrived in North America he called the people he found there Indians as would have been appropriate had he been where he thought he was.

But really what does it matter about race? We are all humans and therefore in the end we are the same.

Walter Martindale
09-15-2009, 03:20 PM
I wonder what would happen if the original "offensive" phrase was reissued as "too many coaches, not enough players" or "too many generals, not enough privates" or... Am I going to draw the ire of offended referees or colonels?
Sigh..
W

Flintstone
09-15-2009, 03:21 PM
When I filled my documents in Immigration in Dallas, I ticked the mark "Caucasian". The (afro-american) woman at the counter looked at me, checked my nationality and removed the "Caucasian" mark to tick "Hispanic". Now that infuriated me. I'm Spanish, not Hispanic. And I'm Caucasian, not Hispanic.

That was like 11 years ago. Now? I don't care. Only care about the idiocy of that woman and many more like her.

The young girl that Keith mentioned was, more probably, actually a Hispanic, not a Latina. It was mostly Spanish blood that was spreaded over the place, not that much Italian (or Genovese).

Kevin, I don't know you, but isn't it a fact that your "race" origins can be traced back to the Caucas? Maybe I'm very wrong, and I usually am ;) .

What I'm sure about is that my wife is a purebreed Javanese :) .

Marc Abrams
09-15-2009, 03:21 PM
I think that I am suffocating from PC-besity :eek: ! I for one, suggest that we eliminate all of these artificial classes of distinction and simply refer to people as I refer to myself "A- Hole". I learned this in my Adult Children of Adult Parents Therapy Group. I feel so much better now ;) !

ON A MORE SERIOUS NOTE:

Drew:

Maybe you simply have too much time on your hands. You seem to be so overtly sensitive to puns that people make on this forum, while missing the larger picture. Before you start calling somebody a racist, why don't you take the time to meet and get to know the person first. Just a suggestion from a decidedly un-politically correct homo (I am being anti-gay now?) sapien.

Marc Abrams

jss
09-15-2009, 03:31 PM
Just a suggestion from a decidedly un-politically correct homo (I am being anti-gay now?) sapien.
Since I consider pedantry an art: ever heard of speciesism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism)? :D

Marc Abrams
09-15-2009, 03:47 PM
Since I consider pedantry an art: ever heard of speciesism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism)? :D

Joep:

Nah! I do not discriminate between species. I kill them, skin them, apply a nice dry rub (species specific of course!), grill them and eat them all equally! :D :grr: :D :grr:

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Keith Larman
09-15-2009, 04:29 PM
The young girl that Keith mentioned was, more probably, actually a Hispanic, not a Latina. It was mostly Spanish blood that was spreaded over the place, not that much Italian (or Genovese)..

Yeah, I remember thinking at the time that there was probably no way for her to know if shew as latina *or* hispanic *depending* on how you choose to define those things. How far back do we go? How do we define these things?

I like Marc's classification system better... ;)

Keith Larman
09-15-2009, 04:30 PM
Joep:

Nah! I do not discriminate between species. I kill them, skin them, apply a nice dry rub (species specific of course!), grill them and eat them all equally! :D :grr: :D :grr:

Regards,

Marc Abrams

If you ever meet Toby Threadgil, ask him about trying to order a steak at a Vegan Restaurant in Colorado... ;)

Cynrod
09-15-2009, 04:42 PM
I wonder what would happen if the original "offensive" phrase was reissued as "too many coaches, not enough players" or "too many generals, not enough privates" or... Am I going to draw the ire of offended referees or colonels?
Sigh..
W

That's what I am thinking about. "Too Many Leaders But Not Enough Followers" or "Too Many Teachers But Not Enough Students".

Keith Larman
09-15-2009, 04:49 PM
That's what I am thinking about. "Too Many Leaders But Not Enough Followers"

Nah, followers are usually mindless drones following along without an independent thought in their head. Most have more intelligence and pride themselves on some degree of self-determination. That is just another way the man uses to keep the masses down...

or "Too Many Teachers But Not Enough Students".

Yes, but teachers shouldn't adopt that sort of "God-like" attitude of knowing everything. Even teachers can learn from students and the students themselves teach the teachers. So are you suggesting some sort of strict class delineation that further alienates both sides from each other?

Sorry, couldn't resist...

There was an old quote that I wish I could find the source of. Maybe it was just one of those weird hallucinatory memories from my old college days, but I think it was Hume describing John Locke as a "man who was born without skin covering his nerves". I've always loved that expression.

Some people are easily offended. Too easily. Even more interesting are those who get offended for someone else... Kinda like Kanye West I suppose... ;)

Marc Abrams
09-15-2009, 05:08 PM
If you ever meet Toby Threadgil, ask him about trying to order a steak at a Vegan Restaurant in Colorado... ;)

Keith:

I know Toby, and I love that story. I told him my theory: Cows eat grass, therefore they are vegetarians. So when I eat a steak, I am having a vegetarian meal. Logic works for me all of the time :D !

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Keith Larman
09-15-2009, 05:49 PM
Keith:

I know Toby, and I love that story. I told him my theory: Cows eat grass, therefore they are vegetarians. So when I eat a steak, I am having a vegetarian meal. Logic works for me all of the time :D !

Regards,

Marc Abrams

I just love the line "give me something that used to have a face..." Kinda cuts to the chase, neh? ;)

Darryl Cowens
09-15-2009, 06:11 PM
I wonder what would happen if the original "offensive" phrase was reissued as "too many coaches, not enough players" or "too many generals, not enough privates" or... Am I going to draw the ire of offended referees or colonels?
Sigh..
W

Does this remind you of the marshmellow eskimo debarcle too? :rolleyes:

allowedcloud
09-15-2009, 08:39 PM
When I filled my documents in Immigration in Dallas, I ticked the mark "Caucasian". The (afro-american) woman at the counter looked at me, checked my nationality and removed the "Caucasian" mark to tick "Hispanic". Now that infuriated me. I'm Spanish, not Hispanic. And I'm Caucasian, not Hispanic.


"Hispanic" as the term is used here in the US simply means someone that's from a Spanish-speaking country or speaks Spanish as their primary language. It's more of a ethnic designation than a racial one. There are white Hispanics, black Hispanics, mezito Hispanics, etc...but you're still considered Hispanic.

Kevin Leavitt
09-15-2009, 09:18 PM
When I filled my documents in Immigration in Dallas, I ticked the mark "Caucasian". The (afro-american) woman at the counter looked at me, checked my nationality and removed the "Caucasian" mark to tick "Hispanic". Now that infuriated me. I'm Spanish, not Hispanic. And I'm Caucasian, not Hispanic.

That was like 11 years ago. Now? I don't care. Only care about the idiocy of that woman and many more like her.

The young girl that Keith mentioned was, more probably, actually a Hispanic, not a Latina. It was mostly Spanish blood that was spreaded over the place, not that much Italian (or Genovese).

Kevin, I don't know you, but isn't it a fact that your "race" origins can be traced back to the Caucas? Maybe I'm very wrong, and I usually am ;) .

What I'm sure about is that my wife is a purebreed Javanese :) .

Well, I can't find the info right now, but not all people of Northern European descent trace there roots back to the Caucas areas. I think it is as outdated as calling African Americans "Africans", or Mexicans "Spanish" or Native Americans, "Indians".

My native roots come out of Western, Northern Europe, (France and England), so I would prefer the term "European American" since we seem to be standardizing that way along lines of Ethnic Heritage these days.

The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.

Kevin Leavitt
09-15-2009, 09:19 PM
Keith:

I know Toby, and I love that story. I told him my theory: Cows eat grass, therefore they are vegetarians. So when I eat a steak, I am having a vegetarian meal. Logic works for me all of the time :D !

Regards,

Marc Abrams

I will ask him about this for sure. BTW I am a vegetarian/vegan FWIW.

Marc Abrams
09-16-2009, 07:53 AM
I will ask him about this for sure. BTW I am a vegetarian/vegan FWIW.

Kevin:

It has been my experience that the vegan's have more "issues" with us omnivores than the other way around. I consider the whole topic a non-issue. I have a high school reunion the weekend of Toby's seminar, so I will have to miss you on that end. Invitation to the seminar at my place is still good. I am seeing Wade this weekend and will say hi to him for you!

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Kevin Leavitt
09-16-2009, 08:19 AM
Off topic, but oh well. I am not a big PETA fan. I suppose they have their place in the world, but I don't think that you win anyone over to the other side through militant and shock tactics.

I do it because it is right for me. As Ghandi said "be the change you want to see in the world."

To put it back on topic, I think that this is what is important about the whole issue of PC, being offended, offensive etc. At some point we have to realize that in order to transcend stuff, we need to start emulating and living how we think we should and set the example.

There are plenty of people willing to be victims or want to feel special because they are doing something different. I don't have time for that nonsense!

I think it is more important to just do what you do and just maybe folks will become more aware.

that said, Don't patronize Dunken Donuts!

http://dunkincruelty.com/investigation

(Had to get that in there!....doing my best Kayne West imitation!)

Yea say Hi to Wade! and thanks again for the invite. Not sure I can get two weekends out of my wife though!

C. David Henderson
09-16-2009, 08:39 AM
Kevin:

It has been my experience that the vegan's have more "issues" with us omnivores than the other way around. I consider the whole topic a non-issue. I have a high school reunion the weekend of Toby's seminar, so I will have to miss you on that end. Invitation to the seminar at my place is still good. I am seeing Wade this weekend and will say hi to him for you!

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Well, there was that time I took some tempeh to a barbeque in West Texas and asked to add it to the grill... If I recall correctly, I think that caused some "issues." ;)

OTOH, I know some vegetablarians who seem to use food issues for social control.

Mark Freeman
09-16-2009, 03:51 PM
Well, I can't find the info right now, but not all people of Northern European descent trace there roots back to the Caucas areas. I think it is as outdated as calling African Americans "Africans", or Mexicans "Spanish" or Native Americans, "Indians".

My native roots come out of Western, Northern Europe, (France and England), so I would prefer the term "European American" since we seem to be standardizing that way along lines of Ethnic Heritage these days.

The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.

Hi Kevin,

If you go further back, we can all trace our ancestry back to Africa. So you could legitimately call yourself a European American African:)
As we all decended from the same place and share the same roots, all of the (sometimes odd) labeling serve only to separate us as people. Surely we are just people/distant relatives living in different places?

regards

Mark

Mike Sigman
09-16-2009, 04:17 PM
If you go further back, we can all trace our ancestry back to Africa. So you could legitimately call yourself a European American African:)
As we all decended from the same place and share the same roots, all of the (sometimes odd) labeling serve only to separate us as people. Surely we are just people/distant relatives living in different places?
Anthropology has been one of my hobby interests for some time and I've watched the Africa debate go on for a long, long time. There's a number of anthropologists who simply hold to the position that there is a lot of evidence that early Man arose in Africa simply because Africa is where most of the digging has been done. If we dug as assiduously in other places, we might find evidence of even earlier man in some other location (remember that the continents were not even in the same place or shape back in those days, so "Africa" is really a meaningless term). Successful animals spread to far places back in those times and its difficult to say exactly where the point of origin was. Just to show you how things can suddenly change, look at this recent article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/a-skull-that-rewrites-the-history-of-man-1783861.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman

ninjaqutie
09-16-2009, 04:40 PM
Can vegetarians eat animal crackers? Hehe... I know they aren't animals..... but they LOOK like them. :D

Mark Freeman
09-16-2009, 04:57 PM
Anthropology has been one of my hobby interests for some time and I've watched the Africa debate go on for a long, long time. There's a number of anthropologists who simply hold to the position that there is a lot of evidence that early Man arose in Africa simply because Africa is where most of the digging has been done. If we dug as assiduously in other places, we might find evidence of even earlier man in some other location (remember that the continents were not even in the same place or shape back in those days, so "Africa" is really a meaningless term). Successful animals spread to far places back in those times and its difficult to say exactly where the point of origin was. Just to show you how things can suddenly change, look at this recent article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/a-skull-that-rewrites-the-history-of-man-1783861.html

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Hi Mike,

thanks for the link, v. interesting article, however, as is usual in these matters, there are quite a few may's, could lead to's and it's possible that's.
Professor Lordkipanidze raised the prospect that Homo erectus may have evolved in Eurasia from the more primitive-looking Dmanisi population and then migrated back to Africa to eventually give rise to our own species, Homo sapiens modern man..

I believe there is a top scientist in China that is sure he has the fossil evidence to prove that the chinese have evolved as separate and distinct race of sapiens. A view which seems to be popular with many chinese, but so far has no acceptance from non chinese scientists.

As time goes on I'm sure we'll dig up more fossil evidence to question the currently held views. Good, we should always be questioning currently held views/beliefs. They may never be able to pinpoint the exact point of origin geographically, however, the fact that modern man decended from a fairly small number wherever it was, should lead us towards celebrating shared humanity rather than focusing on difference.

All power to the diggers I say!

regards,

Mark

Mike Sigman
09-16-2009, 05:26 PM
thanks for the link, v. interesting article, however, as is usual in these matters, there are quite a few may's, could lead to's and it's possible that's. Well, that was my point... Africa as a point of origin is only a maybe and given the time, spread of the human animal (or any animal) as its survival mechanisms proved successful, there's not really that much we can say with certainty about old bones. ;)

I believe there is a top scientist in China that is sure he has the fossil evidence to prove that the chinese have evolved as separate and distinct race of sapiens. A view which seems to be popular with many chinese, but so far has no acceptance from non chinese scientists. Well, there seems to be one factor in favor of some Asian role because the most primitive form of one type of protein found in man is found in Asians, for some reason. It should have been found widely in Africans, if the African origin was to be a nicely-packaged theory. Bear in mind that there are a number of ethnic subsets of indigenous "Africans" (reflecting various successful survival adaptations of geography, food availability, procreation, culture/war, etc.). But of all those subsets (giving us a lot of choice from which to check proteins, etc.) it's odd that some subsets of Asians have that protein, instead. Another factor to consider is the indication that some 70,000 years ago the human genetic pool was mysteriously bottle-necked; current theory is that there was a cataclysm caused by a super-volcano explosion.

As time goes on I'm sure we'll dig up more fossil evidence to question the currently held views. Good, we should always be questioning currently held views/beliefs. They may never be able to pinpoint the exact point of origin geographically, however, the fact that modern man decended from a fairly small number wherever it was, should lead us towards celebrating shared humanity rather than focusing on difference.
I dunno.... Mother Nature is more of a "may the most successful succeed" than a love-and-peace type. Don't try to toss the old dame out, just yet. Without her, you wouldn't be here today... and incidentally, that's more the attitude of a Taoist (life is what it is, not what you try to make it to be).

Best.

Mike

Mark Freeman
09-16-2009, 05:55 PM
I dunno.... Mother Nature is more of a "may the most successful succeed" than a love-and-peace type. Don't try to toss the old dame out, just yet. Without her, you wouldn't be here today... and incidentally, that's more the attitude of a Taoist (life is what it is, not what you try to make it to be).

Is the flower behind my ear showing from underneath my pseudo scientific fringe;) I agree that Mother Nature is all about suceeding, all life is in a never ending striving to keep itself going. I wasn't particularly espousing love and peace, as much as like the idea :)
The older and I hope marginally wiser I get the more see that life 'is what it is'. Still, I enjoy watching the scientific community uncovering the abundant evidence, that continues to enrich our understanding of human history. My curiosity in all of this, is that a frighteningly large number of homo sapiens have evolved to the point, where there is a subsection that is truely able to completely discount the millions of tons of fossil evidence that shows, that life on earth is millions of years old and arrive at the conclusion that it appeared by magic some 10,000 years ago! :hypno:

regards,

Mark

Mike Sigman
09-16-2009, 06:46 PM
My curiosity in all of this, is that a frighteningly large number of homo sapiens have evolved to the point, where there is a subsection that is truely able to completely discount the millions of tons of fossil evidence that shows, that life on earth is millions of years old and arrive at the conclusion that it appeared by magic some 10,000 years ago! :hypno: I completely agree. I'm also astounded that there is a subsection of humanity that believes in "science" but which thinks that the evolution of various survival strategies never occurred and that all people are "equal" in all ways. That's also a religion. In fact, we're all animals, some with different survival strategies, and until that actuality is accepted and dealt with we're going to create our own problems.

The idea of a "Tao" is to accept reality, get around it, and deal with it for what it is, not pretend that it's something else. What a lot of people fail to realize is that the "Taoist Priest" in the local village was the realist who helped people deal with reality, helped them build a new house or outhouse, and didn't try to baffle them with B.S. based on some false view of reality. ;)

Best.

Mike

Rob Watson
09-16-2009, 08:05 PM
The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.[/QUOTE]

Very outdated thinking sprung from German anthopologist (Johann F. Blumenbach 1752-1840) whose ideas were highjacked by those more concerned with racial purity and superiority than scienctific inquiry.
Caucasus is derived from (according to Pliny) a Sythian word/phrase kroy-khasis which means 'ice shining white snowy mountain' and has nothing to do with 'white folk'. Anyone who thinks white folks are from there needs a bit of some 'learnin'. I really got into it with one of my professors when he insisted I was from those lonely mountains and did not take too kindly to my pointing out his outdated racist based opinions on the matter. Another case of the teacher learning from the student - I didn't learn much in that class.

Ever take a look at the National Geographic Geneographic project? They use DNA to build a 'map' showing the most likely patterns of migration based on genetic information. Still leaves a lot up in that air for interpretation, etc but it is pretty intereseting nonetheless. Note that there is supposedly great resistance to participation in this study from the aboriginal peoples of the americas. I thought it was well worth the $100 to find out my info.

Thanks

Mike Sigman
09-16-2009, 08:19 PM
The word "Caucasian" or Caucasoid, would really mean in these terms the same as Negroid,Mongoloid. Kinda outdated...but hey to each is own.

Very outdated thinking sprung from German anthopologist (Johann F. Blumenbach 1752-1840) whose ideas were highjacked by those more concerned with racial purity and superiority than scienctific inquiry. Oh, I dunno... the idea that "the ancient folks were not as smart as we modern people" is a millenia-old conceit. I sometimes go to old and hard-to-reach gold mines with some old-timers looking for the gold that the "old miners" missed because they didn't know as much as the modern geologists. You'd be surprised at how many times there's nothing there because they weren't as dumb as the smart modern guys think.

Certainly there are obvious differences between various subsets of any animal species. Some people are better able to withstand cold; witness the epicanthal folds ("slanted eyes") and helpful fat-depostions of Asians, indicating that they evolved in very cold climates. Witness the various skin colorations dependent upon sun-exposure. Witness the various fat-storage mechanisms like steopygia. To pretend that there are no recognizable differences between humans that developed different survival adaptations (for whatever reasons) is fatuous. The trick is to understand these things in the larger context without losing sight of reality.
I really got into it with one of my professors when he insisted I was from those lonely mountains and did not take too kindly to my pointing out his outdated racist based opinions on the matter. Another case of the teacher learning from the student - I didn't learn much in that class. Why go further, since so many can learn from you?
Ever take a look at the National Geographic Geneographic project? They use DNA to build a 'map' showing the most likely patterns of migration based on genetic information. Still leaves a lot up in that air for interpretation, etc but it is pretty intereseting nonetheless. Note that there is supposedly great resistance to participation in this study from the aboriginal peoples of the americas. I thought it was well worth the $100 to find out my info.What could they tell you that you didn't already know? ;)

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
09-16-2009, 08:45 PM
Anyone who thinks white folks are from there needs a bit of some 'learnin'. I really got into it with one of my professors when he insisted I was from those lonely mountains and did not take too kindly to my pointing out his outdated racist based opinions on the matter. I have to go back to this one. I wasn't there, but it's possible that you completely misunderstood the idea.

A species has to "diversify" to some extent, just to survive. In other words, various genetically-different sub-species help assure the survivability of a species in case of catastrophy, changing environment, and so forth. Suppose, for instance that the world changes suddenly and catastrophically due to climate, war, meteor-bombardment, or whatever.

At the moment, tool-makers seem to be in the dominant position. Suppose the climate changes and the people best-suited for the change are, let's say, some tribe in the South Pacific... that helps keep the species alive, just as one example of many things that could happen. Could be an influenza virus or a change in the solar output... who knows what the stressor may be that wipes out part of a species while another part survives and dominates. A person who doesn't see the value in having various survival strategies available for the species is simply a narrow-minded bigot. No matter how smart they think they are in comparison to the "common man" or uninformed professors. ;) You and he may have simply been talking on totally different wavelengths.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Rob Watson
09-16-2009, 11:28 PM
I have to go back to this one. I wasn't there, but it's possible that you completely misunderstood the idea.


Oh, we were on the same wavelength and I seriously doubt if he learned anything after he got tenure. Crusty old fart stuck in his ways and too blind to see just how wrong he was (those were his words). I think the best thing to come out of it was everyone in that class was really keen on questioning long held beliefs and did not simply accept as fact the teaching. Before our 'exchange' it was the usual take notes, get by just enough to pass the exams and move on but not so after wards.

I looked him up about 7 years after the fact and we had a cordial time and he was much more relaxed and less pompous- I was much more of an ass and cocky too. Still working on that ...

Rob Watson
09-16-2009, 11:35 PM
A person who doesn't see the value in having various survival strategies available for the species is simply a narrow-minded bigot. No matter how smart they think they are in comparison to the "common man" or uninformed professors. ;)

ad hominem? From you? " Even an idiot can see I'm correct!" - not very convincing.

OT but it is not 'survival of the fittest' by any stretch ... lucky to find a niche is more like it.

Maybe I'm just too smart by half?

Rob Watson
09-16-2009, 11:48 PM
Oh, I dunno... the idea that "the ancient folks were not as smart as we modern people" is a millenia-old conceit. I sometimes go to old and hard-to-reach gold mines with some old-timers looking for the gold that the "old miners" missed because they didn't know as much as the modern geologists. You'd be surprised at how many times there's nothing there because they weren't as dumb as the smart modern guys think.

Non-sequitur. I don't even know where this is coming from ... I was just giving some history of where the terms came from. Sorry to hear you wasted your time fooling around in a musty old mine.

[QUOTE=Mike Sigman; Why go further, since so many can learn from you? What could they tell you that you didn't already know? ;)

Mike Sigman[/QUOTE]

It has nothing to do with me. One is free to do some research on their own. In fact don't pay any attention to me at all! Most seem to prefer their comfortable beliefs despite, or in spite of, the facts.

It is my sincere hope that some do learn from me to go and verify things for themselves. That is what I did and found out what was presented as obvious fact turned out to be exceptionally wrong and it didn't take that much effort to find out.

Rob Watson
09-16-2009, 11:55 PM
What could they tell you that you didn't already know? ;)

Mike Sigman

My family oral and documented history (grandmother is a geneologist) goes back to the 13th century. According to the genetic evidence they traced a history from ~65,000 years ago up to about 10,000 years ago - I didn't know anything about that part. Not much from the 13th century back 10,000 years so there is plenty of wiggle room!

According to the genographic project data and interpretation my genes started in Africa and ended up in the fertile crescent. They don't say anything about the shades of the epidermis ....

eyrie
09-17-2009, 05:04 AM
How did a thread about too many managers and not enough workers, de-evolve to a discussion about genetic diversity, or lack thereof?

But I suppose it's apt.... considering that a new thread should have been started way back when... but apparent lack of thought diversity seems to have stymied thread evolution.

BTW, there's a compelling argument why genetic diversity is essential to the survival of a species.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/10/2681558.htm

I think the moral of the story is... "don't piss in the gene pool"...

Kevin Leavitt
09-17-2009, 06:38 AM
Ignatius, your obviously not evolved enough to follow such a sosphisticated conversation, so I will forgive you for not understanding.

lbb
09-17-2009, 08:17 AM
Hey, folks? I know some of you are just trying to have a little fun and lighten up a topic that can get heavy...and I know that Drew's original post may have taken some aback. But I really don't like the mocking and ridiculing of his concern. I really don't like it when people bray, "Aw you're just being PEE CEE!!!" when anyone says that certain words or phrases are offensive, or even just suggests that we examine that possibility. It's dismissive and it's unfair. It smacks of a desire to shoot the messenger rather than hear an uncomfortable message. Can't we do better than that?

Ron Tisdale
09-17-2009, 08:54 AM
I think we can do better than that if we don't start the conversation off by calling someone racist.

Best,
Ron (no offence meant to anyone of any particular shade, creed, or religeon) ;)

MM
09-17-2009, 09:17 AM
Hey, folks? I know some of you are just trying to have a little fun and lighten up a topic that can get heavy...and I know that Drew's original post may have taken some aback. But I really don't like the mocking and ridiculing of his concern. I really don't like it when people bray, "Aw you're just being PEE CEE!!!" when anyone says that certain words or phrases are offensive, or even just suggests that we examine that possibility. It's dismissive and it's unfair. It smacks of a desire to shoot the messenger rather than hear an uncomfortable message. Can't we do better than that?

Well, as Michael Hacker eloquently responded in post #2 of this thread, Drew's initial post was wrong. Not only was it wrong, but Drew's actions by his post, he did exactly that which he condemned.

So, I have to ask, just where in Drew's insulting (and could be considered racist) post do you find we shouldn't be dismissive? Or, do you think Drew should be given a pass because his "message" is important? In other words, it's okay to be insensitive, racist, or insulting as long as we're trying to get people to quit being insensitive, racist, or insulting?

lbb
09-17-2009, 10:02 AM
Well, as Michael Hacker eloquently responded in post #2 of this thread, Drew's initial post was wrong. Not only was it wrong, but Drew's actions by his post, he did exactly that which he condemned.

I'm not saying this applies to Drew's actions, but your reasoning is fallacious. If someone uses the n-word, and someone else says, "That's racist!", they're not equally blameworthy. Sorry, but they're just not. False arguments for "civility" are now commonly being used to stifle legitimate objections to racist remarks, on the grounds that the objections themselves are "uncivil" and therefore just as offensive as the original remarks. That's disingenuous "logic" employed to stifle legitimate objections.

So, I have to ask, just where in Drew's insulting (and could be considered racist) post do you find we shouldn't be dismissive?

I think you need to read the responses to see what I'm getting at. It has nothing to do with Drew's comment per se. Read them with an open mind and see if you can't see what I'm talking about.

Ron Tisdale
09-17-2009, 10:14 AM
I hear what you are saying Mary, but...

when anyone says that certain words or phrases are offensive, or even just suggests that we examine that possibility.

Drew (and it doesn't matter that it was Drew, *I* might have said it, and what I am saying would still follow) used the word "racist" in how he responded to the original post. Now, the original post might have been an oversight, maybe the poster was unaware that it might be offensive, maybe the poster simply doesn't find that hackneyed phrase offensive, who knows?

If Drew had phrased this the way you did, I think he'd have started a much different discussion. Since he phrased it the way he did, this is what he got. I'm pretty sure I can't fault the way others responded to it. BUT, I'd be more than willing to read a new thread where you talk about the subject you introduced. I don't know if I'd have much to contribute, but I'd like to read it. My thoughts in this area are always in something of a state of flux.

Best,
Ron (kind of like my stomache these days...I know...TMI :eek:)

MM
09-17-2009, 11:03 AM
I'm not saying this applies to Drew's actions, but your reasoning is fallacious. If someone uses the n-word, and someone else says, "That's racist!", they're not equally blameworthy. Sorry, but they're just not. False arguments for "civility" are now commonly being used to stifle legitimate objections to racist remarks, on the grounds that the objections themselves are "uncivil" and therefore just as offensive as the original remarks. That's disingenuous "logic" employed to stifle legitimate objections.


But that isn't what happened. At all. While Drew certainly used the word, racist, itself -- that isn't the critical point. The critical point is that Drew, himself, used an insulting (and could be construed racist) term in his argument.

In your example, it would be like this ... (Please excuse the following as it is an example only. No disrespect intended.)

Example Start.
Someone uses the N word. Someone else posts, "Your slang is disrespectful to Khaffers, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.
Example End.


I think you need to read the responses to see what I'm getting at. It has nothing to do with Drew's comment per se. Read them with an open mind and see if you can't see what I'm talking about.

I agree with Ron. Had someone posted a genuine concern, things would have turned out much differently. If you'd like to start a thread concerning this issue, I'm sure people would post appropriately.

mathewjgano
09-17-2009, 11:31 AM
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.

I don't know whether your phrase contains hatred, ignorance, or both, but I highly recommend not using derogatory ethnic words unless spoken through a character in a fictional work.

Drew

My view is that intent is the real measure of racism. Certainly I would agree there exists institutionalized racism/bigotry, and i dislike its use, but because i have found myself using such terms without even realizing it (like getting "gyped" at the movies for a 10.00 coke), I don't get offended at their use as much these days...and I would like to stress my very intense hatred for bigotry. In my personal cosmology of what's wrong with the world, after ignorance comes bigotry. I can tell by your post you feel very similarly and I applaud you for that. It's very easy for folks to dismiss things that haven't affected their lives negatively, and having some familiarity with Native Americans I can appreciate where you're coming from in this case, but I don't think any hatred was apparent in John's post and while you could make an argument of ignorance based on what you might call a lack of appreciation for certain Native Americans, I don't think it's as offensive as you seem to...but as a guy who grew up in a trailer park, I'm very familiar with the very common "trailer trash" phrase so maybe I'm also somewhat desensitized.

lbb
09-17-2009, 12:17 PM
But that isn't what happened. At all. While Drew certainly used the word, racist, itself -- that isn't the critical point. The critical point is that Drew, himself, used an insulting (and could be construed racist) term in his argument.

One more time. I am not talking about what Drew said. I'm talking about where it went from there.

Do you need specific cites to understand what I'm talking about?

rroeserr
09-17-2009, 12:29 PM
My eighth grade basketball coach said that to us once, only he said, "Indians." Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.

I don't know whether your phrase contains hatred, ignorance, or both, but I highly recommend not using derogatory ethnic words unless spoken through a character in a fictional work.

Drew

Wow...you have access to O'sensei thoughts? You need to stop being so sensitive. In your attempt to be PC you didn't even use the PC term for Indians...Native American. Good Job.

Kevin Leavitt
09-17-2009, 12:32 PM
Yeah, actually I could use some specifics as I thought it was a fairly constructive conversation going on where a bunch of folks were having a intelligent conversation about the issue and it was essentially raising the awareness bar on the subject without calling anyone a racist, bigot, or anything else.

So yeah, I am really failing to understand your point. Maybe if around post #2 or #3 this might have been an appropriate response, but this conversation has been going on for a few days now and your "shot" is the equivilant of a fight being over and then coming in late and getting your lick in for good measure.

I don't think anyone here is making light of the situation at all.

this is a complex subject as are most things in life and can't be boiled down to a "black or white" issue. (no pun intended...okay...maybe a little).

I think in the spirit of expanding horizons, seeking to understand, and compassion, harmony, and peace...there is alot of value being added in this conversation...which is what we are supposed to do in our philosophical practice of aikido.

In ain't about "getting off the line" or "avoidance", but about confronting the issue, exploring it for all it is worth and critically examining.

FWIW, alot of people and myself included go around using words and phrases simply because they always have. "Gyped" is actually a good one. I put no emotional issue to the phrase since I did not grow up in a Gypsy culture, it meant nothing to me, it was simply a phrase that people used, so the etiology of the word was lost on me for a long while.

However, once learning the background of it, learning about Gypsy culture etc, I understand now, and I am not so inclined to use it and will choose other words.

That does not make me a racist however, simply ignorant...which is something we all are in someways and need to expand out of.

so yea...I need to understand where you are coming from cause I don't see it (Ignorance on my part).

Keith Larman
09-17-2009, 01:18 PM
I think there are valid issues to be discussed. I'm still curious whether "injins" is a derogatory term or if it is more about Hollywood's attempt to give westerns a "twang". So leaving that side, is "Indian" a bad word to use for "native Americans"? That strikes me as odd considering the vast number of so-called self-described "Indian Gaming" locations here in my state of California. You can't go 20 miles without running into one. Or seeing commercials for them. Given the widespread use of the word "indian" by local tribes I'm not exactly sure if the word has simply become an innocuous and perfectly acceptable word that has lost the tarnish of its original improper origins through common usage.

But again this is getting away from Mary's point as I understand it. Sure, there is an issue here to discuss (and I thought we had actually discussed that issue somewhat). I'm still puzzled about Injins.

But the other side of that coin is that Drew's post itself leveled a charge of racism in what I think most felt was simply, well, really tortured logic at best. Yes, it is a good idea to look at our usage of words and remember the etiology of some of them. But over time it can go to far and I think Drew's did go way over the line too far. So the discussion is going to be focused and directed by that aspect of the original post.

Hey, I'm all for looking more deeply into these things -- I've always found it fascinating. Look up "Pot calling the kettle black." I did one day after a friend of mine got in a huff over another friend using that expression. There's a great example of finding insult that was most likely never there to begin with. Another has to do with "freezing the balls off a brass monkey". And that one has generating an amazing amount of debate as to what it *really* means. Some versions are really interesting.

But when we take a step back -- the question to me comes down to two things. One is whether the words used are themselves derogatory in meaning. I don't find that aspect of the original expression to be all that clearly determined. The second is whether the person using the phrase was using it as a derogatory expression -- that one was clearly no.

So... We end up back at the beginning. And I still wonder how on earth did one person manage to find such offense to what I personal thought of as a rather innocuous expression? So yes, in light of that, the original post ends up feeling very Politically Correct in an "over the top" way. I am genuinely curious about the word "indians" still being a negative thing as it appears to be in widespread use even by our local tribes here. Next is whether "injins/injuns/whatever" is itself derogatory. I had never seen it that way but I'm willing to admit it wasn't something I'd really thought about before. I have offered up where I had assumed it had come from, and I'd be very happy to not use it myself if it turns out to be a derogatory term. But again... Isn't that why we're having this conversation?

And still... In the end I have to agree with Hogan's post. Given how fascinating I find the topic, i sure wish we could have had this conversation without the original silliness of the first post.

Posted with respect.

C. David Henderson
09-17-2009, 01:35 PM
I thought I was doing good when we adopted our daughter from China. Then when you talk to chinese people, they ask from what province and then that gets into a whole discussion about her ethnicity. You see there are 54 some odd distinct ethnic groups of chinese!

I had an ethnology professor, a Dr. Blake, who did his field work with the Hakka people of the Hong Kong/Canton area. A primarily identifier for them ethnically is their distinct language, in which Dr. Blake, a tall, blue-eyed, "European" looking guy you might expect to have a name like "Blake," became pretty fluent during his time in the Hong Kong area.

He told a story about a time he spoke Hakka at a restaurant in Honolulu, the owners looked at him with amazement. They asked him hesitantly if he were Hakka, and he pointed out, "I'm speaking Hakka." They then asked, "Were your parents Hakka?"

As to the OP, many native people I've met in the 25 years I've lived in NM strongly identify with being "American," as double-edged (yes, that word does apply here) a self-identification as that necessarily seems to be, as well as being members of their own nation. (E.g., the Dine Code Talkers.)

Some people I've met seem strongly rooted in their own nation's culture and society; some alienated from that; some have become doctors or lawyers or business people who navigate wider social settings and are still connected to their pueblo or tribe.

I remember talking to a couple of kids who'd been adopted by Anglos when I was substitute teaching in West Texas around 1982. I was asking the boy how he felt about what I had perceived as insensitivity by other kids, and his sister interrupted bitterly saying, "Don't ask us, we're just dumb Indians."

I realized then the last thing she wanted to be reminded of was being different, perhaps especially by some white kid.

I don't believe you can really make generalizations about how the people I've met would react to the phrase "Native American." Not to "welsh" on taking a position, but it doesn't seem that simple.

YMMV

cdh

ninjaqutie
09-17-2009, 01:38 PM
You all make valid points about the "gypped" word. In fact, for the longest time, I never saw the word spelled.... only heard. I have grown up with people saying it without any ill will. It was just a word to use besides scammed or ripped off. It wasn't until I finally saw the spelling of the word that I finally understood the origins behind it.

I believe most things are more from ignorance then anything else. We have countless words in the language that we use and don't know the origns of (whether they were good or bad). HOWEVER, I am not saying that words aren't said with the sole intention of hurting someone.

If you think about it, it is actually kind of sad that we have been desensitized to things over time. There are things everywhere, like the trailer trash comment (I also grew up in a trailer until 9th grade), blonde jokes/comments, comments about state employees not working, "injians", "chincs", rednecks, etc.

You also have to consider, what was once considered "PC" or okay may not be considered okay today. I mean... back in the day, injians was considered okay, black (for lack of a better word) were considered negros. You don't hear people really saying that anymore. Why? Because it now has a negative connotation with it and african american is used. That is also a catch-all and that will fade away one day. Not everyone with dark skin actually has heritage from africa. Maybe they have dominican in them or are from barbados. White people aren't white and asian people aren't really olive colored......

The fact is our language has it's faults. If something is wrong, it is wrong, but you also have to consider the meaning behind the word and how it is used. I have an asian friend who calls himself a chinc on occasion. I have had black friends use the n word with each other. I have called myself a cracker at one point I am sure..... All of these situations were amongst friends and were used in a friendly and laid back manner. No malice at all. The problems usually arise when someone outside of that ethnicity/culture/whatever else uses the word. Or they use the word with the sole intent of using it in a demeaning way.

I think that ignorance will never be cured, no one will ever understand everyone and that the best we can do sometimes is agree to disagree.

Mike Sigman
09-17-2009, 01:39 PM
So leaving that side, is "Indian" a bad word to use for "native Americans"? Whoa... just to confuse the issue (and kill a little time) let me challenge the term "native American". There is growing evidence that there were established people (probably came via boats on the Pacific) prior to the advent of the migration of proto-Asians across the Bering Strait. It appears those prior colonies were wiped out. But then again, various American Indian tribes also wiped each other out, cannibalized, and so on.

Then too, there is Kennewick Man:

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf109/sf109p02.htm

So "native" as meaning "indigenous" is not really accurate. They were obviously imperialist aggressors. ;)

Mike

Mike Sigman
09-17-2009, 01:43 PM
I don't believe you can really make generalizations about how the people I've met would react to the phrase "Native American." Not to "welsh" on taking a position, but it doesn't seem that simple.That was simply the Aikido of bad comparisons, David. :p

Mike

Kevin Leavitt
09-17-2009, 01:49 PM
Ashley wrote:

If you think about it, it is actually kind of sad that we have been desensitized to things over time. There are things everywhere, like the trailer trash comment (I also grew up in a trailer until 9th grade), blonde jokes/comments, comments about state employees not working, "injians", "chincs", rednecks, etc.

It is sad. My personal philosophy of growth is based on seeking to understand and expanding awareness. So, I am always looking for way to grow and learn. Which is why I like the folks here on Aikiweb as I find most of you guys in the same vein so this makes things interesting and constructive.

I think being PC is just as bad (or almost as bad) as being Ignorant. PC is essentially about avoidance. Lets ignore the problem and pretend that it doesn't exist, therefore we don't have to deal with it and kick the can down the road.

I deal with PC everyday, as most of you do.

I see PC being practiced in Aikido (or have) and when I see things such as "Aikido is about blending and avoiding conflict", I get upset....cause that is all PC language which essentially valdiates the whole PC process and says it is better to all be civilized and avoid the issue than to actually confront it and deal with it.

In any problem solving process, 12 step program, or what not, the first step is always "Identify the problem". 2. step is always some language of ownership or acceptance.

Walter Martindale
09-17-2009, 03:24 PM
Off topic, but oh well. I am not a big PETA fan. I suppose they have their place in the world, but I don't think that you win anyone over to the other side through militant and shock tactics.



PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals
:D
Walter

dalen7
09-17-2009, 03:39 PM
LOL.

Ok this should be fun, what offends Indians. - Nothing, call me what you want!. ;)

My grandmother, on my mothers side is Indian. [Albeit it seems there is a potential tribal mix between her grandfather and mother if I remember correctly. Otherwise its pretty straight Cherokee.]

My grandfather on my dads side is norwegian.
So that grants me about a quarter of each, although my dad also has Indian in him from his grandmother on one side of the family, so that ups my ante on the Indian side... despite my blue eyes. ;)

Point is, all of this is silly. [not researching heritage], but taking words so serious. Call me what you want, I could care less. Either your right or your not, doesnt really matter to me.

Reminds me of school kids on a bus when they used to say, "yo mamma is a ___"
Now while most people would start a fight based on this, when it was told me it didnt phase me. The issue was simple, was it true? Then what would I do about it? Was it a lie? Then nothing to do about it.

So often we get caught as adults in this political correct scenario, and I find it quite unfortunate that its even necessary to do so.
We feed so much power into words and symbols and that then feeds the collective unconscious monster.

Heck, what im saying here, does it make sense? Does it matter? lol.

Im not saying to blatantly go out and try to offend someone, but the world is truly so mixed now this is old. I could have "african american" blood in me for all I know. This whole label thing has never set right with me.

"Native American", "African American", "Norwegian American", "hungarian American?" - nah, the latter is just American?

These labels keep up the division.
And Ill go a step further.
"Im American", "Im Chinese", "Im Russian" - cool, it gives me a reference point as to what your collective pain body is like and how to deal with a less conscious person. ;) [just picking but the point is there]

At the end of the day it makes me wonder how we will ever reach Michio Kakus level 1 civilization if we let such trivialities remain at the heart of what we deem important.

Hungary is an interesting example. Here they hate gypsies... they loathe them... I cant even express the dismay they have towards them. Imagine the typical image you have of a KKK member towards a 'black', and you may get a clue.

A couple, or more, of the guys that train where I do seem to be training because of their fear of the gypsies.

Whats happening, and Im saying this based on what I feel is happening after going to the gypsie village and chatting with them to get to know them a bit, is that its a clash of cultures.

... ultimate culture shock. The way of the gypsies and their thinking is so different that it poses a threat to the established way of how things are done here. [and Ill admit, some of their ways, like throwing junk in nature behind their houses... kitchen sinks, etc., is a bit too much. I think we should try to take care of what has been given to us. And seeing that the trash is thrown on the outside of the metal rubbish bins with no concern of throwing it in doesnt help their case with the locals either.]

Some concerns are indeed legit, but these concerns could be pointed to any given portion of a population.
There really isnt much to do at this point to resolve this as the way of life is that vastly different. [you would have to be here to get it, as the gypsies stateside are different than those here.]

Again, its not about a color, its about two ways of life and when those ways of life clash with each other. One is not necessarily wrong and the other right, but the fact is in such close proximity, unless everyone wakes up with Eckhart Tolle as their conscious, they are gonna have some issues.

You can take this scenario and apply it anywhere in the world.
Even when two cultures are similar you can be taken back at how much difference there really is, how much misunderstanding.

So on one level, getting the peoples names right is of the least concern... getting to the person, to understand where they are, allowing them the freedom to have self-expression, while you keep your own 'identity' intact, is something left for a higher level civilization as a whole. :)

The fact is, there are some people you may not want to be around, or limit your exposure to them. Does not mean that they are bad, etc. But everything has its time and place... this topic can be talked around in circles, so Ill jump out of the loop here. :D

Peace

dAlen

Walter Martindale
09-17-2009, 03:44 PM
On a more serious note - "Indian" and "Native American" and other tribes terms for "the people" (e.g., I believe that those most often called "Eskimo" by people in the south prefer to be called "Innu" or "Inuit".. )
The parts of Canada I've lived in have sometimes been under land claim between the "first nations" people, as they seem to call themselves, and the provincial or federal government. British Columbia was at one time 110% under overlapping claims by the local first nations communities...

I've never understood the "native" term - because I've understood "native" to mean "one born here" - I'm native to Canada even though my grandparents weren't, but I'm not "first nations".

Many people make statements that offend because they don't know the current "what's right" phraseology. for example, when I was very young, the "Negro" was considered a polite replacement for the other "N" word, and then it became "African American."

Where I live now, "Pakeha" refers to us white folks, and the tone with which it is expressed by some of those who were here before the Europeans showed up leaves no doubt that it's not a term of endearment.

Trouble is, if you jump up and down and take great offense, you get great long list of replies like this thread.

A reply in person - e.g., "Sorry mate but I find that offensive." doesn't automatically imply that the entire world is offended, just the speaker. Those who mean no offense don't need to be hauled up in front of the world and shouted at, they need to be reminded that some people take offense, and in case they were unaware of the problem, it's an education moment, rather than a rise up and dump on someone moment...

Perhaps there's a better way to express these thoughts, but I must get off to work..
W

Hogan
09-17-2009, 03:49 PM
Hey, folks? I know some of you are just trying to have a little fun and lighten up a topic that can get heavy...and I know that Drew's original post may have taken some aback. But I really don't like the mocking and ridiculing of his concern. I really don't like it when people bray, "Aw you're just being PEE CEE!!!" when anyone says that certain words or phrases are offensive, or even just suggests that we examine that possibility. It's dismissive and it's unfair. It smacks of a desire to shoot the messenger rather than hear an uncomfortable message. Can't we do better than that?

No - people who are easily offended need to be mocked & ridiculed in order to toughen them up.

dalen7
09-17-2009, 04:18 PM
This really goes with my other post - but out of the time frame to update it. ;)

Im adding this as a bit of cultural info, as most Americans dont have the privilege to live in another culture long enough to experience it. [And I mean immersed in it, away from all Western influences, etc.]

We took our older kids out of the Christian school this year and put them in the school across the street. [various issues, to long to get into here, suffice it to say it wasnt too Christian.] ;)

Before taking them out the Director of the school said, "you do know gypsies go to that school." I could hear Jesus rolling over in his grave. [Wait, I forgot he rose from the dead.] ;)

True, there are some gypsies there, and my daughter who is in the 4th grade has a gyspie kid who cant read and write. - I dont quite understand how a school can pass someone up that far without them learning basic skills, but I guess it happens even stateside.

People put their kids into the Christian school, [which does receive some gov. money, as well as recently the gov. gave them back the secondary school that used to be fully public - a bit of history and politics to much to go into now] but suffice it to say people put their kids in that school to keep them away from other kids.

Dont fool yourself, this happens stateside as well, just may be a little better white-washed. [appropriate term?] ;)

I dont know, when you think about that this is the way people actually think, it begs the question to be asked, "how did I arrive on this planet?" :)

Well, suppose there is hope... but that hope is always with the kids - who learn their parents hatred. [I have a friend who appears to have picked up his fathers hatred, and it seems a bit more amplified than the hate his father showed.]

Kids are the future and they magnify what they see in us.
There is hope, as long as they learn the 'right' thing... and by right, I mean letting go of the hate.

Peace

dAlen

lbb
09-17-2009, 05:21 PM
No - people who are easily offended need to be mocked & ridiculed in order to toughen them up.

So, anyone who ever says that they find something offended is "easily offended" and should be "mocked &[sic] ridiculed". Got it.

Darryl Cowens
09-17-2009, 06:37 PM
Yeah Walter, I don't use the word pakeha on formal documents like the census etc. Not because the word, or any 'hidden meanings' of it offend me.. I just don't see why I should use the word to conform with political correctness. I'm a New Zealander. I'm not British... my great-great grandparents were that.

I don't go around calling myself white, caucasion or NZ European, so I'm not going to call myself a pakeha because I'm not of maori descent. At the end of the day I'm a New Zealander ;)

Mike Sigman
09-17-2009, 10:22 PM
http://feministlawprofessors.com/?p=12978

TAnderson
09-18-2009, 07:57 AM
A government take...

http://www.doi.gov/bia/

Tim Anderson

Eric Winters
09-18-2009, 06:10 PM
All this PC stuff is fine and dandy but what I really want to know is if Aikido works in a fight?

gdandscompserv
09-18-2009, 06:12 PM
All this PC stuff is fine and dandy but what I really want to know is if Aikido works in a fight?
:D

Kevin Leavitt
09-18-2009, 07:09 PM
It doesn't work in a fight.

Eric Winters
09-18-2009, 08:32 PM
Damn! I guess I will have to quit then.:D

Mike Sigman
09-18-2009, 10:25 PM
Your slang is disrespectful to the American Indian, therefore racist, therefore offensive to the Grand Dream of O'Sensei, therefore offensive to me.
Just to clarify about what a "racist" is, here's this:

http://www.neijia.com/obamaflowchart.jpg

Suru
09-23-2009, 01:21 PM
When I saw the derogatory term it brought about bad feelings. Whether this word was intentionally disrespectful, I don't know. Not trying to be the Aikiweb police, I simply didn't want to see ethnic disrespect on our forums.

Wikipedia is a widely respected Internet encyclopedia, granted it isn't perfect or all-encompassing. I didn't know about the Indian thread since it is a break off from another thread. I just read the posts for the first time, then found the following list of ethnically derogatory words, for anyone about to use an ethnic term and wants to know whether it is generally considered disrespectful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

Drew

dps
09-23-2009, 01:33 PM
I am of mixed heritages, Scandinavian, Irish, German, Cherokee Indian, Hillbilly and the only time when someone calls me something and I get offended is when they call me late for supper. :)

David

Janet Rosen
09-23-2009, 01:39 PM
Interesting. Most of the Yiddish words are not specifically derogotory, they are the ONLY words in Yiddish to describe Jews and non Jews. They can be delivered in a tone of voice that, like any word delivered in a particular tone of voice, becomes a sneer or putdown ("Roast beef????", say, or "the Post Office???"), but are much more commonly used as simple descriptors.
Interesting also that the common term for a female non Jew, shiksa, is there but not the equally common term for a male non Jew, shaygetz.
As in, in reading the wikipedia entry, I suspect some shaygetz watched a Woody Allen movie and read too much into it :-)

Ron Tisdale
09-23-2009, 02:28 PM
LOL...good one Janet!
B,
R

Suru
09-23-2009, 05:59 PM
Janet,

You give too much power to movies. They are often entertaining, but if you see them as a true revelation of reality, it is healthier to save your $7.00. People don't pay to watch reality on the big screen; why would they?

Drew

Suru
09-23-2009, 06:03 PM
I am of mixed heritages, Scandinavian, Irish, German, Cherokee Indian, Hillbilly and the only time when someone calls me something and I get offended is when they call me late for supper. :)

David

You should walk in the midst of Miami's Overtown with a KKK outfit on, yelling the n-word repeatedly. If you live five minutes, I will immortalize your Aikido technique.

Hogan
09-24-2009, 07:58 AM
...Wikipedia is a widely respected Internet encyclopedia...

Not really.

Basia Halliop
09-24-2009, 11:43 AM
No, but if it's in Wikipedia it does explain that at least some people do and have used it as an insult. It may be one whose non-insulting vs insulting usage depends on where you are in addition to how you're saying it. In the original post, I did not get the impression it was used in a derogatory way -- i.e., there's nothing inherently insulting about a reference to certain political system that has leaders and followers. I got the impression the spelling was used more as it's a direct quote of an old saying.

One I always found weird was 'Polack'. I have never understood what's supposed to be insulting about that, as (other than the anglicized spelling), it's exactly how you say 'a polish man' in polish - my parents are from Poland and I speak the language reasonably well. I always thought it sounded better than 'pole', which sounds kind of silly, like a telephone pole. I assume it's one of those many words that acquired a certain connotation purely through usage, in this case probably at some point in time when there was an influx of poorly-educated polish immigrants to north america. I.e., if enough people use a word as an insult, it increasingly becomes one.

Like many words for, e.g., physically handicapped or particularly mentally disabled people -- each generation tries to wipe the slate clean with a newer, fresher, nicer word, and within a few years it's the new insult :freaky: "Retarded" was originally invented as a nice word (it just literally means 'late'). Same with 'handicapped', 'special', etc... Unless the actual attitude towards the group changes, new more polite words just become insults.

Mike Sigman
09-27-2009, 06:34 PM
Like many words for, e.g., physically handicapped or particularly mentally disabled people -- each generation tries to wipe the slate clean with a newer, fresher, nicer word, and within a few years it's the new insult :freaky: "Retarded" was originally invented as a nice word (it just literally means 'late'). Same with 'handicapped', 'special', etc... Unless the actual attitude towards the group changes, new more polite words just become insults.Good points, Basia. What you have to understand is that getting involved in the "racial insults" conversation is one of those useless flytraps in life. The people who devote a lot of time to emotionally-indexing words are usually the same people who get their deepest philosophy from the chorus-stanzas of ABBA songs and who could not write a simple homework essay without the cut-and-paste function. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Mark Freeman
09-28-2009, 05:16 AM
The people who devote a lot of time to emotionally-indexing words are usually the same people who get their deepest philosophy from the chorus-stanzas of ABBA songs and who could not write a simple homework essay without the cut-and-paste function. ;)


Now that you've catagorized a whole sub-group of people Mike, why not give that group a name, just try to make sure that it's one that doesn't cause offence!;) :D

regards,

Mark

lbb
09-28-2009, 07:26 AM
Now that you've catagorized a whole sub-group of people Mike, why not give that group a name, just try to make sure that it's one that doesn't cause offence!;) :D

Why bother? When you view your every freedom of expression, no matter how trivial, as being paramount above all other considerations, the harm that you do to others is a matter of complete indifference. Why even bother to try to consider or evaluate what that harm may be, when you're going to do what you feel like regardless?

Suru
09-28-2009, 07:38 PM
Why bother? When you view your every freedom of expression, no matter how trivial, as being paramount above all other considerations, the harm that you do to others is a matter of complete indifference. Why even bother to try to consider or evaluate what that harm may be, when you're going to do what you feel like regardless?

I really agree here, Mary. There are things we're supposed to take with us off the mat. Two of these are respect and discipline.

Drew

Suru
09-28-2009, 07:52 PM
Now let's be fair here: shouldn't Chris be allowed to share the blame with the guy who named the river Indus? :)

Columbus was searching for a faster route to the East Indies, not where the Indus River is in India.

Drew

jss
09-29-2009, 01:37 AM
Columbus was searching for a faster route to the East Indies, not where the Indus River is in India.
That's true, but if the people living near the Indus wouldn't have called it 'Sindhu' (Sanskrit), it wouldn't have been called 'Hindu' in Old Persian and thus would not have been know as the 'Indos' by the Ancient Greek, nor would the people living there been known as 'Indoi' (still Ancient Greek), which became 'Indians' in English. (I don't know which language Columbus used to talk/write about the Native Americans, though, but the word he used would have come from Ancient Greek.)
I mean, it all depends how far you want to go back to find the root cause. (Which is a very Buddhist idea, btw.) ;)

Michael Douglas
10-01-2009, 03:57 AM
John Hogan already put it simply, but ;
...Wikipedia is a widely respected Internet encyclopedia, ...
Simply isn't true, or even close to it.
It's a widely READ internet encyclopedia, also widely despised and distrusted.
In this thread for instance it took mere minutes for people to find words listed by wiki as derogatory which were simply descriptive : and only classed as derogatory by clueless whinging nerds ... who largely create entries in wiki. :)

(There are of course many good and accurate wiki pages ... but no way to discern which they are!)