PDA

View Full Version : Yoseikan katas


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Flintstone
09-14-2009, 11:13 AM
Hi all. There are a couple of katas in the Yoseikan that we've never been taught. I'm talking about the Kansetsu Waza no Kata and the Shime Waza no Kata.

Because the legacy of Mochizuki Sensei is so much spread over his different students, who in turn created their own systems, it's difficult to know who learned what from Sensei. Fact is that I've never been exposed to these two katas.

If I could ask for a wish... could some of you enlighten me on these two katas? Like what waza are included?

Sorry if this is too much asking, but my curiosity's growing over the years...

Thanks and best regards!

Luca Idolazzi
09-14-2009, 05:45 PM
Dear Alejandro,
when do you get in touch with these katas?

Flintstone
09-14-2009, 06:29 PM
Dear Alejandro,
when do you get in touch with these katas?
That's the point: I've never got in touch with them at all!! I see from the Seifukai website that they still practice them, and you being from the Seifukai... perhaps... ;)

Phil Van Treese
09-15-2009, 03:28 PM
Kansetsu waza are armbar techniques---against the elbow. There are many ways to get an armbar.

Shime waza are chokes from in front, behind or from the side. I love shime waza the best.

Tomiki Aikido uses these techniques very often. I am not aware of any other style that uses these techniques.

Have a good day.

Flintstone
09-15-2009, 03:41 PM
Kansetsu waza are armbar techniques---against the elbow. There are many ways to get an armbar.

Shime waza are chokes from in front, behind or from the side.
But of course!

Tomiki Aikido uses these techniques very often. I am not aware of any other style that uses these techniques.
Yes, only a few of the schools teach them in a daily basis. Luckily Yoseikan is one of them ;)

Best.

Luca Idolazzi
09-15-2009, 05:15 PM
dear Alejandro, I can't answer now (and I don't know if the answer is right at all) but I'll provide some hypotesis as soon as possible

David Orange
09-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Hi all. There are a couple of katas in the Yoseikan that we've never been taught. I'm talking about the Kansetsu Waza no Kata and the Shime Waza no Kata.

If I could ask for a wish... could some of you enlighten me on these two katas? Like what waza are included?

Alejandro,

I can tell you that these were two serious kata for Mochizuki Sensei and we would do them from time to time. I never thought of them as being on the level of such kata as Hyori no Kata and Tai Sabaki no Kata, but they were important to Sensei. They are included in Nihon Den Jujutsu. Do you know anyone with a copy?

The katas are performed as kata, with uke resisting only at specified times and in specific ways. Otherwise, he is compliant.

Each form is a chain of techniques with tori applying one, then moving or moving uke and applying another, then moving and applying another so there's not as much sense of action/reaction. These katas are more like a physical list of techniques. Kansetsu Waza no Kata may have more of the action/reaction and it presents techniques to some degree in order of ease of moving from one to the next and also as evolutions of the previous technique, such as bend the hand inward, then bend the hand outward, do shita ude garame the switch to ue ude garame, juji-gatame with one leg over, then with both legs over and things like that.

Shime Waza no Kata is just a chain, ordered by convenience of moving from one to the next but there's not much sense of switching from one to the next because uke tries to counter: each of these techniques is a finishing technique and you get very effectively choked time after time after time when doing uke for this. But it doesn't seem to do any harm. If you don't overdo it, I guess.

Hope that's of some help.

Best to you.

David

Flintstone
09-16-2009, 04:05 AM
I can tell you that these were two serious kata for Mochizuki Sensei and we would do them from time to time. I never thought of them as being on the level of such kata as Hyori no Kata and Tai Sabaki no Kata, but they were important to Sensei. They are included in Nihon Den Jujutsu. Do you know anyone with a copy?
That's why I find it strange, being that important, that they cannot be found nowhere but in Nihonden Jujutsu. I'm not fortunate enough to have a copy. You know how impossible to find they are. If you hear of one available, please, please, let me know!

The katas are performed as kata, with uke resisting only at specified times and in specific ways. Otherwise, he is compliant.

Each form is a chain of techniques with tori applying one, then moving or moving uke and applying another, then moving and applying another so there's not as much sense of action/reaction. These katas are more like a physical list of techniques. Kansetsu Waza no Kata may have more of the action/reaction and it presents techniques to some degree in order of ease of moving from one to the next and also as evolutions of the previous technique, such as bend the hand inward, then bend the hand outward, do shita ude garame the switch to ue ude garame, juji-gatame with one leg over, then with both legs over and things like that.

Shime Waza no Kata is just a chain, ordered by convenience of moving from one to the next but there's not much sense of switching from one to the next because uke tries to counter: each of these techniques is a finishing technique and you get very effectively choked time after time after time when doing uke for this. But it doesn't seem to do any harm. If you don't overdo it, I guess.

Hope that's of some help.
This is of great help. At least it gives me an idea about them! Thanks a lot, David!!

Luca Idolazzi
09-18-2009, 04:44 PM
Dear fellows,
I haven't much more information in addition to David's ones. Now I speculate about the origins of these kata. Probably they were created in recent times. The fact could be corroborated by their presence in Nihon den Jujutsu but in no other Mochizuki sensei's text. In addition these katas were ideated more to remember techniques arranged in series than to transmit some priciples (like in Hyori no kata or Tai Sabaki no kata).

I think they are important, but in a lesser way than the main katas and this can be justified by the fact that all the techniques were also taught as separate in the more conservative approach of the old Yoseikan Aiki

Flintstone
09-20-2009, 03:26 PM
Thank you both! If any of you ever hear of a copy of Nihonden Jujutsu I can lay my hands on, please let me know!

Massao/Seifukai
09-21-2009, 11:47 AM
I also am interested in a copy.

David Orange
09-21-2009, 03:34 PM
I also am interested in a copy.

It's an incredibly rare book, very nicely made. But I won't make you feel worse about it.

I guess you must be training with Sugiyama Sensei down there in Hamamatsu.

Best to all.

David

Flintstone
09-21-2009, 04:30 PM
It's an incredibly rare book, very nicely made. But I won't make you feel worse about it.

I guess you must be training with Sugiyama Sensei down there in Hamamatsu.

Best to all.

David
And then... you know... we can kill for a scaned or xerocopied version... right? :o

Stormcrow34
09-21-2009, 08:13 PM
Hello again Alex. I'll ask my teacher if I can scan a copy of his version. I don't know if he'll let it out of his site, but I will ask. I also may have some video you would be interested in. I'll get back to you about it. Happy landings.

Flintstone
09-22-2009, 03:01 AM
Hello again Alex. I'll ask my teacher if I can scan a copy of his version. I don't know if he'll let it out of his site, but I will ask. I also may have some video you would be interested in. I'll get back to you about it. Happy landings.
Oh, please, this is a fellow Yoseikan practitioner begging here ;)

Thanks a lot for the help!

Stormcrow34
09-22-2009, 07:44 AM
No worries, my friend. I want a copy for myself anyway. Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you. Later.

darin
09-22-2009, 07:49 AM
My teacher had hours of Yoseikan aikido, karate, kobodu and demos on old video reels. Some really priceless footage. We had it all converted to VHS in the 90s but I think those tapes and his copy of Nihonden jujitsu were all thrown away when he died.

Flintstone
09-22-2009, 08:29 AM
My teacher had hours of Yoseikan aikido, karate, kobodu and demos on old video reels. Some really priceless footage. We had it all converted to VHS in the 90s but I think those tapes and his copy of Nihonden jujitsu were all thrown away when he died.
OMG, that's a big loss from all points of view!

No worries, my friend. I want a copy for myself anyway. Give me a couple of days and I'll get back to you. Later.Again, thank you!!

darin
09-22-2009, 09:08 AM
Yes a big loss. Once he became ill his family took over his house and possessions so there was nothing we could do.

Massao/Seifukai
09-22-2009, 10:04 AM
Hello David! Yes, Sugiyama sensei is my teacher along with Namiki Sensei

David Orange
09-22-2009, 10:51 AM
Hello David! Yes, Sugiyama sensei is my teacher along with Namiki Sensei

Wonderful men. I remember Sugiyama Sensei especially well. And his brother. Do you ever see Murai Sensei? He's up in his 90s now, I think. I hope his health is good. He is another wonderful person and a real treasure of aikido. It's a shame he has never been better publicized and I'm not aware of any interview or history that's ever been written of him, though I encouraged Stan Pranin to interview him.

Best to you.

David

Massao/Seifukai
09-22-2009, 11:52 AM
A year ago I do not see Murai sensei.Ele is very old and not very good health.
It really is a pity that he does not have its recognition.
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm2000864
Video with Murai sensei and Sugiyama sensei

David Orange
09-22-2009, 01:50 PM
A year ago I do not see Murai sensei.Ele is very old and not very good health.
It really is a pity that he does not have its recognition.
http://dic.nicovideo.jp/v/sm2000864
Video with Murai sensei and Sugiyama sensei

I really hope Stan or someone can get to him and do some interviews. He started training with Minoru Mochizuki in about 1951 or so, I believe, and he had incredible power, speed, accuracy and skill. He was 71 in 1986, he said, so now he would be about 94 years old. And in that clip you posted, he is about 90. Even when I last saw him, he was close to 80 and would take ukemi for those same sacrifice throws he was doing in that clip. And he would train with anyone, quite unlike most teachers who are getting up in age a few years (early to mid-50s). He would take ukemi for anyone and I never saw anyone who could resist his smooth technique. He would be out there with the black belts through hour-long sutemi-only randori sessions, time after time, taking the falls as well as doing the throws. And with a sword, he was really awesome.

I sure would love to see him again.

Thanks for posting that.

David

Stormcrow34
09-22-2009, 01:53 PM
Cool video. I've heard really good things about Murai Sensei. Anyone care to translate?

Luca Idolazzi
09-22-2009, 05:44 PM
Dear fellows,
here in Europe we're waiting for the 40th anniversary of the ANAMJ (http://www.anamj.ch). There will be three days with Kenmotsu sensei and I hope collecting information about other senior members of Seifukai, expecially Murai sensei. I'll let you know any news. Carniel sensei often speaks about Murai sensei and the reports are the same of Mr Orange's.

Thanks for the video. Murai sensei is amazing

Stormcrow34
09-23-2009, 11:20 AM
BTW, I think it's great that many Yoseikan enthusiasts accross a variety of continents and organizations can come together in the spirit of budo.

I'm only a student so please don't take this for gospel, but I believe the Shime Waza No Kata goes something like this:

1. Ashi Hagai
2. Kata Nori Katate Jime
3. Ushiro Kata Nori Katate Jime
4. Ushiro Murki Katate Jime
5. Hadaka Te Kubi Jime
6. Hadaka Hiji Jime
7. Yoko Eri Jime
8. Tsuri Komi Jime
9. Kata Ha Jime
10. Okuri Eri Jime
11. Juji Ka Jime
12. Okuri Eri Jime
13. Juji Jime
14. Sode Kuchi
15. Suso Jime
16. Sankaku Jime
17. Hachi Juji Jime

Flintstone
09-23-2009, 11:36 AM
Thank you, Michael, for the input. Can't wait to get my hands on a fresh scanned xerocopy of the book! ;)

Stormcrow34
09-23-2009, 02:12 PM
I don't have the book yet Alex, and I can't promise anything, but I will do my best.

Flintstone
09-23-2009, 05:20 PM
I don't have the book yet Alex, and I can't promise anything, but I will do my best.
Sorry, didn't mean to push! Just my growing anxiety ;)

Best!

Massao/Seifukai
09-24-2009, 06:32 AM
On this page dojo Seifukai tokyo (Yoshida sensei) has a list of techniques for all katas
http://budofsys.hp.infoseek.co.jp/sf/waza/kata/index.html

Massao/Seifukai
09-24-2009, 06:34 AM
The site Dojo Tokyo has many interesting information

Stormcrow34
09-24-2009, 09:10 PM
The site Dojo Tokyo has many interesting information

Unfortunately, I don't read Japanese...but on the other hand, I do recognize Jutsuri No Kata and the pictures from Kansetsu and Shime Waza No Kata.


Thank you very much for that link. I saved it to my favorites!

Flintstone
09-25-2009, 03:44 AM
Great link, thanks!!

David Orange
09-25-2009, 12:14 PM
...we're waiting for the 40th anniversary of the ANAMJ (http://www.anamj.ch). There will be three days with Kenmotsu sensei and I hope collecting information about other senior members of Seifukai, expecially Murai sensei. I'll let you know any news. Carniel sensei often speaks about Murai sensei and the reports are the same of Mr Orange's.

Please give Kenmotsu Sensei and Carniel Sensei my best wishes.

Thanks.

David

Luca Idolazzi
11-09-2009, 02:00 PM
Dear Mr Orange,
the 40th anniversary activities were great. Kenmotsu sensei, Carniel sensei and also Jörg Schiffner sensei were pleased by your wishes and ask me to thank you.
It was a beautiful moment for old Yoseikan mates.

Massao/Seifukai
12-12-2009, 12:08 AM
more videos
http://www.nicozon.net/player.html?video_id=sm7904845
http://www.nicozon.net/player.html?video_id=sm7414376

Stormcrow34
12-22-2009, 10:37 AM
Nice videos. Thank you for sharing. :)

lezard39
06-17-2010, 11:36 AM
Hi folks,

Is there somebody who knows the name of the sutemis included in the Sutemi no kata?

Thanks

Junansei
12-09-2011, 08:27 AM
Hi folks,

Is there somebody who knows the name of the sutemis included in the Sutemi no kata?

Thanks

1. Ude maki
2. not sure ... looks like a form of motari komi han sutemi
3. Motari komi
4. Kata ha
5. Sumi gaeshi
6. Hazuoshi
7. Kata shime
8. Soto waki
9. Uki waza
10. not sure about that name (Ushiro kata otoshi maybe)

hope it helped a bit :)

lezard39
04-11-2013, 04:23 PM
1. Ude maki
2. not sure ... looks like a form of motari komi han sutemi
3. Motari komi
4. Kata ha
5. Sumi gaeshi
6. Hazuoshi
7. Kata shime
8. Soto waki
9. Uki waza
10. not sure about that name (Ushiro kata otoshi maybe)

hope it helped a bit :)

Sure it's helping a lot! Thanks Sam Sosef,

lezard39
04-24-2013, 11:40 AM
2. not sure ... looks like a form of motari komi han sutemi
)

I just took a look to the Minoru Mochizuki Sensei tapes and I thing it's a han sutemi call Hiji Kake Daoshi

Robert Cheshire
09-03-2013, 03:32 PM
BTW, I think it's great that many Yoseikan enthusiasts accross a variety of continents and organizations can come together in the spirit of budo.

I'm only a student so please don't take this for gospel, but I believe the Shime Waza No Kata goes something like this:

1. Ashi Hagai
2. Kata Nori Katate Jime
3. Ushiro Kata Nori Katate Jime
4. Ushiro Murki Katate Jime
5. Hadaka Te Kubi Jime
6. Hadaka Hiji Jime
7. Yoko Eri Jime
8. Tsuri Komi Jime
9. Kata Ha Jime
10. Okuri Eri Jime
11. Juji Ka Jime
12. Okuri Eri Jime
13. Juji Jime
14. Sode Kuchi
15. Suso Jime
16. Sankaku Jime
17. Hachi Juji Jime

I've seen this kata change in order a couple of times. You can always say - this was an older version if called on it.

David had some good points about these kata as well. These two were really designed to be a repository of information on the shimi waza and kensetsu waza in Yoseikan.

Sure would love to get my hands on a copy of the book if anyone has ever scanned it or came across it in electronic format. I have been able to see it before and remember that the pictures were great (since I can't read Japanese).