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thisisnotreal
09-05-2009, 07:11 PM
:cool:
how is it that anderson the spyder silva is so much better than everyone else? Is he like michael jordan better.."just" a gifted genius?
...or does he show any specific internal skillsets? (given that it is a relatively 'rare' potential advantage)

-he seems to have laser pinpoint precision
-ability to stay in the moment
-ability to commit full throttle in a split second.
-the man's got soul in his movements.
-extremely relaxed

i would not say he has 'internals' going on (mostly because I can't say either way from what i see). would you say either way?

How is he so much better than every other professional that practices, practices, practices?

Does he show evidence of anomalous power generation?
he seems to maintain posture (and composure) to a high degree...not sure that I would call it connected...but i think it may qualify.

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0qRQFJg9tA&feature=related
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-rWsFsuMlw&feature=related (illegal ko from ground)
3) well; i was gonna find some other clips but..why:? every fight he was in he made the other guy look bad...almost without exception. Wtf about the last fight with Forrest? That was too weird.

He's going up another weight class? I thought i heard that. (Yeah;yeah i could google it Demetrio..but i thought I'd let you tell me ;) )

(did you ever see this clip of his loss; flying scissor lock. unbelievable http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267i7rKeECA)


Grandpa always said: Be polite to everyone you meet, but have a plan to kill them just in case. (http://www.reddit.com/r/DoesAnybodyElse/comments/9ho3a/does_anybody_else_plan_out_how_they_would_fight/)

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Didn't watch every clip, watched the first one.

I am no expert on so-called internals for sure, and maybe some of the guys that are more knowledgeable than I will chime in....

Internals, IMO, are not an all or none thing. I'd say everybody has some degree of understanding at least minimally. Using it consistently and effectively is a different matter. Guys like Silva certainly understand some degree of internals, but probably would not even know what you are talking about or may not be able to replicate in a teaching environment. It is on a scale or spectrum..not all or none.

So yes, you could probably see some things in his fighitng style that would correspond to what some would call internal training.

Okay that said.....

If you are talking about specifics in the things he does...well I would say that he is not fighting from an internal paradigm though or making consistent use of internals in the first clip I watched.

That back fist that he KO'd with for example, IMO, was very powerful, but it also consisted of a huge windup and came from the rotation of his spine and external winding of his arm...not from his core. Sure some "internals" were present...but I think they are so minimal in the application that you could draw a conclusion that they did not play a significant role as much as his speed, size, momentum and timing. Awesome strike though.

Silva is very relaxed, very grounded, and a very powerful fighter that does not bounce around much and his power is very good and drives from his core very well.

The thing with this type of fighting though is timing and attrition count for so much and silva really takes good advantage of that as most good fighters do!

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2009, 07:43 PM
One other thing. Again timing and attrition are used in these fights more than anything else.

A good example of internals would be some of the muay thai kicks silva throws. Nice kicks and I am sure they hurt like hell.

However they really do not have much connective power. If the were internal, then you'd see him connect and on alot of those kicks you'd see the guys legs get blown out from under him, not silva bounces back off of him on his base.

I'll see if there are any good vids that illustrate this.

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2009, 07:55 PM
Rob John Actually has a decent video I think to illustrate the difference. At about 1:09 he shows some kicks where they essentially get buried into the core of the guy vice bouncing back off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-HLVl9LNo

I have been hit alot, but I tell you the day MIke Sigman drove into my core on my chest I saw the difference between external strikes..which still hurt like hell and internal ones which hurt in a much different way.

Again, though, UFC fighters don't need to be the best striker or an internal striker...they only need to be good enough to win the fight or slightly better than the guy they are fighting..which counts for alot.

thisisnotreal
09-05-2009, 09:29 PM
thanks Kevin...I still wonder..maybe the core of my question - what is it that makes silva such a stand out? why so far above the rest?

You made a bunch of interesting observations. thanks...and always interesting.

"I have been hit alot, but I tell you the day MIke Sigman drove into my core on my chest I saw the difference between external strikes..which still hurt like hell and internal ones which hurt in a much different way."
>Please, could you say a bit more about this...?

also
"
However they really do not have much connective power. If the were internal, then you'd see him connect and on alot of those kicks you'd see the guys legs get blown out from under him, not silva bounces back off of him on his base."
>I wonder how much (i.e. connected) training kicks will look under the duress of a real fight. there is always that factor.

on a side-note:
oh yeah; I noticed this a long time before..but since you posted it; that clip with RJ; before he does shiko and at one other point in the vid he 'landmarks' the sacrum and top-of-head (i think)...is that for a 'neural connection' or what? just to prompt the brain to help get things going/activated? That's the only plausible things i could guess at.. (hope RJ sees this)

Cheers.

thisisnotreal
09-05-2009, 10:41 PM
kevin, did you see this (pt.1) interview with mayhem miller; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrLbZoSJIfE

for the thread: Silva...he's a ninja. that's why he's so good.

Kevin Leavitt
09-05-2009, 10:44 PM
Rob will have to answer that directly to be sure. I believe it is mainly to align the spine as the axis. you have to connect to the ground and have good alignment in order to move correctly.

Most of us, myself included have bad habits and posture. Pelvis is typically tilted the wrong way. Most of us in a western society have a great deal of atrophy and over tight Psoas muscles that cause your pelvis to tilt out of line. Great deal of power is lost because of this.

The chin thing, well that is to communicate that we need to be erect and have good extension.

You are extending in both direction, down into the ground and up away from the ground.

Anyway, that is what I get out of what Rob is doing most likely.

Once you have stabilzed this axis, you can swing like a gate on a hinge.

There is more to this than that to do a kick, but this is one important element in that process.

thisisnotreal
09-05-2009, 10:55 PM
This clip of silva is the one i should have posted; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s6rF0gId4E
i'ts 13 seconds long. i liked his reverse knee roll move at the end as his celebratory "end-zone" dance move.

those clips were too long that i posted in the original; there are many highlight clips of him fighting. he disassembles his opponents. he does it in different ways in different fights with different fighters. he always feels his guys out for the first bit.
i think you'd say he's 'ahead in the ooda loop'. i raeally have no idea what that is about. he is ahead in thinking things through; and motivating them to make it happen the way he wants. constantly feedbacking into what he's doing. what else; i don't know. it is definitely information dense\

thisisnotreal
09-05-2009, 10:59 PM
Rob will have to answer that directly to be sure. I believe it is mainly to align the spine as the axis. you have to connect to the ground and have good alignment in order to move correctly.

Most of us, myself included have bad habits and posture. Pelvis is typically tilted the wrong way. Most of us in a western society have a great deal of atrophy and over tight Psoas muscles that cause your pelvis to tilt out of line. Great deal of power is lost because of this.

The chin thing, well that is to communicate that we need to be erect and have good extension.

You are extending in both direction, down into the ground and up away from the ground.

Anyway, that is what I get out of what Rob is doing most likely.

Once you have stabilzed this axis, you can swing like a gate on a hinge.

There is more to this than that to do a kick, but this is one important element in that process.
+ 1

thisisnotreal
09-05-2009, 11:10 PM
Most of us, myself included have bad habits and posture. Pelvis is typically tilted the wrong way. Most of us in a western society have a great deal of atrophy and over tight Psoas muscles that cause your pelvis to tilt out of line. Great deal of power is lost because of this.

+ 10

This part alone is great.
This is really profound and i actually had to fix that, personally. Sacrum became biased in a torqued tilted way... had to get it 're-floating'...I can hear it shift on posture shifts.

thisisnotreal
09-07-2009, 12:41 AM
anyway; this guy Silva, is utterly beyond amazing i find.
i feel like he is a good 200 milliseconds ahead of the other fighter most nights. He is my favorite fighter to watch. for so many reasons.

He is amazing.
Do you think...and agree with me, like any sane person would, namely that- He is the best pound-per-pound fighter on the planet? Or would you argue it's emelianenko? He is a beast.

Kevin Leavitt
09-07-2009, 08:22 AM
Fedor has a better record, but of recent history, I'd say Silva is not at is peak yet, and may Fedor is tipping over the other side.

There is so much to judge a fighter on and alot of it comes down to simply who has the better night that night.

Personally, I think Lesnar might actually be the best fighter in the UFC, but only time will tell as he is new to the scene and needs to show consistency.

There are so many aspects to fighitng to say which one is better.

Randy Coture is also a favorite of mine, not because he is necessary the best fighter, but because he is in his mid 40's he is out there, a warrior, a hell of a technician, which is why he is still doing it today. So I think you could also argue that he is a decent one too, even though he is way past his prime.

Depends on how you want to look at this stuff.

Walter Martindale
09-07-2009, 04:52 PM
Rob John Actually has a decent video I think to illustrate the difference. At about 1:09 he shows some kicks where they essentially get buried into the core of the guy vice bouncing back off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-HLVl9LNo

I have been hit alot, but I tell you the day MIke Sigman drove into my core on my chest I saw the difference between external strikes..which still hurt like hell and internal ones which hurt in a much different way.

Again, though, UFC fighters don't need to be the best striker or an internal striker...they only need to be good enough to win the fight or slightly better than the guy they are fighting..which counts for alot.

Ow!

thisisnotreal
09-07-2009, 10:12 PM
Personally, I think Lesnar might actually be the best fighter in the UFC, but only time will tell...

gtfo
no seriously; gtfo.

Couture
He is great. Unbelievable, in fact. He has that thing, or quality described as 'old man strength', I heard it said. He must have 'a connected body' by anybody's definition of the words, to/@ some point). I always love watching him fight; he never disappoints and is so skilled. What was one of your favorite Couture fights?

Andrew Prochnow
09-10-2009, 10:59 PM
Look at the difference in the make up of the fighters Anderson is fighting. Anderson is a K-1 type fighter. His long study of Muy Thai shows. He makes the fighters play his game and the deck is stacked in his favor. Forrest Griffin has spent his last few years training in Randy Coutors camp. I'm sure there he has spent a lot of time becoming physically fit, wrestling, and boxing. My guess is that there was some time spent on a few juijitsu moves and defenses. Forrest has also learned a few kicks. Forrest is a prettygood fighter who has been thrust forward as a Champ (former light heavyweight). How long has he been doing this? 9 years maybe ? Anderson has been a martial artist I'm willing to bet most of his life. He had been fighting professionally overseas long before we had ever heard of the likes of Forrest Griffin.

As for internals, to an extent maybe. He may have developed some body connection studying how to punch and kick, but its not the type of internal connections that have been talked about on the boards. Well there are my two cents. Your thoughts?

Best
-Andrew Prochnow

Kevin Leavitt
09-10-2009, 11:01 PM
Agree Andrew!

thisisnotreal
09-11-2009, 12:18 AM
Hi Andy,
Very insightful. I agree with you.
some thoughts:

-he was kind of 'thrust forward as champ' wasn't he? I don't recall his fight history too well, but did he not 'qualify' according to reasonable expectations of what a contender's track record to a shot would be?
-I never thought about the massive experience imbalance. it is funny it worked out like that. not fair, is it?

-Well since you called me on it; i thought I'd go back and watch the fight again. I only saw it once; and remembered it was exciting but brief (just over 4 minutes total)
-the fight itself; http://www.mmatko.com/anderson-silva-vs-forrest-griffin-fight-video-ufc-101/ .>> that site is great for all the fights, btw

-Didn't seem like Forrest ever engaged..not really. Not like he can. Definitely not the way he would want to. He threw a lot of 'feeler' kicks...the first real kick got caught right away. he didn't want to attack Silva, i think.(not that i would!)
-it was weird how Silva actually called him on at the 3 minute mark (as it is uncharacteristic, I thought). and then the Neo (like from the Matrix) faster-than-light punch dodges with his hands down. like super over confident..odd, in that it's not usually done that way.
-the way Silva went to give Forrest a hand up, when he was in the crab position, even that was a little odd. Dysfunctional.
-as the 4 minute mark approaches; Forrest looks really tired. his punches were really loopy, which lead to..
-the actual punch that knocked him out ...was like he was getting swatted away. i think it's clear his 'bell was rung', but the punch was odd (wasn't it?) Thinking about heavy hands, used very relaxedly. It is a distinguishing characteristic of the internals discussed on these boards, i think.
-on that site mmatko there were some pretty hilarious discussions. there was talk of Forrest taking a dive (I do not believe that, for the record). People got pretty .. into it.
-was very weird how Forrest *ran* out of the ring after the loss but i don't think i've seen that. Well, I remember once; but that was with a BJ Penn victory...he was in the ring for a total of 2 minutes, including the introductions.. that was weird too..come to think of it. :p
but its not the type of internal connections that have been talked about on the boards.
-I believe you. I am not sure what you mean. Something I was curious about; *if* i could ask a (series of direct:) question (sorry, if not!) Is it so possible that you (guys?) are reasonably imperturbable that you would more-or-less have your way in the ring? That, specifically, the fight would go according to expectations and 'look' like what it is you practice, in terms of aiki, and internal connection? That it would 'look' internal in conflict/practice. That is what I was wondering...i remember reading somewhere, in some fellow's .sig that "...jujutsu happens". And that was explained as a 'consequence of the changed body'
-I think you spelled muay taiah wrong

Well there are my two cents. Your thoughts?
Well spent! Take care.
Best,
Josh

thisisnotreal
09-11-2009, 07:35 AM
Hi,
One last thing; about Anderson dominating Forrest because he was relatively inexperienced....i was thinking; what about the Dan Henderson fight? I found that victory surprisingly overwhelming. I did not expect that. Did you see it? Hendo certainly has a good pedigree with a wealth of experience. I thought he would have won that fight. Seems to me that Silva not only has a way to win; but often able to make the other guy try to play his game (as you say) and finds a way to make the other guy look..not so good. his ability to throw the other guy off his game is pretty strong..
m 2 c more

DonMagee
09-11-2009, 09:21 AM
Hi,
One last thing; about Anderson dominating Forrest because he was relatively inexperienced....i was thinking; what about the Dan Henderson fight? I found that victory surprisingly overwhelming. I did not expect that. Did you see it? Hendo certainly has a good pedigree with a wealth of experience. I thought he would have won that fight. Seems to me that Silva not only has a way to win; but often able to make the other guy try to play his game (as you say) and finds a way to make the other guy look..not so good. his ability to throw the other guy off his game is pretty strong..
m 2 c more

Neither win surprised me in the least. Just looking at the stats you have a expert striker and bjj blackbelt against a guy who's real strength is GNP (Henderson) and a guy who's really know as a brawler (Griffen)

I personally find Machida more interesting the Silva as a fighter. Silva is just an example of what a really talented MT/bjj (notice the small bjj) fighter can become. Machida is more of an oddity in the UFC with a style that is very different from everyone else.

Ron Tisdale
09-11-2009, 09:32 AM
Machida is deffinately more interesting...but that don't take away much from the way Silva gets it done. :D

I like to watch em both.

Best,
Ron (I was so glad Hendo pounded Bisping)

DonMagee
09-11-2009, 09:57 PM
Machida is deffinately more interesting...but that don't take away much from the way Silva gets it done. :D

I like to watch em both.

Best,
Ron (I was so glad Hendo pounded Bisping)

Don't get me wrong, watching Silva fight is like watching a master artist paint.

thisisnotreal
09-11-2009, 10:36 PM
`evening Gents,
Machida is deffinately more interesting...but that don't take away much from the way Silva gets it done. :D

I like to watch em both.

Best,
Ron (evileyes I was so glad Hendo pounded Bispingevileyes )
Hey Ron-
heh. you are so bad. That was freaking nasty that last punch as his entire bodyweight was falling forwards...into it
i agree completely, though! hah!
It was weird.. on TUF..I started off liking Bisping..but his good will got completely used up. I think it was around the time he was fighting Mark Hamil..(that fight was a bad call by the judges..not sure what they were watching) and talking sh*t.

Hi Don,
I really like Machida as well. For me he is mostly still an unknown quantity - I don't understand his style too well (Karate foundation, eh?). That is to say i am usually surprised while watching him fight. Which fight do you like him in - i'll go check it. That fight with Tito Ortiz, if i remember right, was interesting. Machida totally stymied him. Tito got so frustrated chasing, then getting handcufffed. Any idea what you think could be a good tactic against Machida? no idea here. He is so different from what the fighters have to face nowadays, as you say...i'm thinking it could be a while before they figure him out (if ever). Standard answer seems to try to overwhelm and smother...but he is very elusive. aaah-sooo...
-what's up with the small bjj? i'm not sure i get that.
-btw; i liked your other post very much - that is interesting what you say about expectations & dueling. Why done before 10 yrs?
-Favourite fighter...? i'd somehow have to stick with Silva.
-you mention about Henderson's GNP...but if I recall correctly- Silva ultimately disassembled him on the ground with bjj. he stopped a very good man from doing something he is very good at. And I haven't watched the vid lately (too late now!)..but I remember thinking that somehow the heart went out of Henderson. I do not think that is literally true but somehow during that fight something in the guy... evaporated. Similar to in the Griffin-Silva fight.
all just my 2 cents from the bleachers (yelling my head off)
Josh

thisisnotreal
09-11-2009, 11:43 PM
about Machida.. was watching some clips, had some thoughts.(Thiago (http://www.mmatko.com/lyoto-machida-vs-thiago-silva-fight-video-ufc-94/))
-thinking about him fighting vs. how Silva is fighting. ... Silva does what he does (bjj and Muy Thai), and he's an artist at it, right? But Machida fights head to head at every encounter....life, death, ai-uchi...maybe he is more the `ninja`. (or samurai, as it were)
-I can't see, but it looks like he has his 'big-toe' taped up? )is he using that 'groundpath? why is it taped? grip,eh? for pouncing I think. He uses a spring in the body. It is not usual to see that kind of tape job, i believe.
-at 4 minute mark he does a sweet knee sweep
-do you think Machida maintains aikido ma'ai? I know he's definitely in karate ma'ai at points, cause he rips wicked kicks. Seems like they don't stay in that distance too much..so it's at a little further or a little nearer. If nearer, that's the Aikido ma'ai(?). And that usually leads to another 'encounter' for Machida (his preferred attack/instigating position)
-at 4;40; wicked assault by Machida. Last punch didn't look like much but got big reaction.
-around 5:30 Thiago is on the ground, in the crab. He does a few direct hit on the knee,like right on the kneecap from the front. I don't know the rule there, you don't see it often (direct attack on the knee); and I figure it is restricted. is it right?
-quote: 'statistically he (Machida) has absorbed the fewest strikes in ufc history'
-the end of the round was unbelievable. The judges clap the 10 second mark, Machida trips and pushes Thiago down, follows up with a full intent committed leap punch to Thiaga's face and KO`s the guy at zero seconds remaining, and they call the fight. wow
-i note that at Machida's second punch (when Thiago is already down) he actually pushes himself upwards to get his body weight behind the punch before attacking downwards again.
And this one.. just for fun:
-i always wondered, in general, about at the end of rounds. In fights they always mark the 10 second mark like in that fight, and the round just usually ends quietly (always with exceptions) with the men holding and caressing each other. That seems a perfect time for a cheap shot. Likesomeone said; If you ain't cheating, you aint' trying hard enough. Hah! It'd at least give him something to think about between rounds. (although... i guess I probably do think it is unsportsmanlike.. but that's only until everyone catches on!)

DonMagee
09-13-2009, 04:54 PM
`evening Gents,

-what's up with the small bjj? i'm not sure i get that.


Silva has a black belt in bjj, but he doesn't use bjj as his primary strategy in winning fights. He uses his striking. His bjj is more of a defensive thing and very minor in almost all of his fights.


-btw; i liked your other post very much - that is interesting what you say about expectations & dueling. Why done before 10 yrs?

Because it's just a hobby to me, I have decided I don't want to be a teacher or own a school. I have a feeling that I'll find new pursuits to interest me eventually.

-Favourite fighter...? i'd somehow have to stick with Silva.

My favorite fighter, Miguel Torres. I like the way he fights. After that, Machida for his uniquness, then Fedor for being a god king of fighting.


-you mention about Henderson's GNP...but if I recall correctly- Silva ultimately disassembled him on the ground with bjj. he stopped a very good man from doing something he is very good at. And I haven't watched the vid lately (too late now!)..but I remember thinking that somehow the heart went out of Henderson. I do not think that is literally true but somehow during that fight something in the guy... evaporated. Similar to in the Griffin-Silva fight.
all just my 2 cents from the bleachers (yelling my head off)
Josh

Well Silva is a black belt in bjj, and has a solid chin, so it's not really surprising that he was able to handle himself on the ground. Most strong bjj fighters don't have the ability to take hits and stay calm like he does, and that usually leads to their G&P downfall. I think Forrest was outclassed totally and a little scared/unsure. And who wouldn't be, he was fighting the best Muay Thai striker in the UFC.

Michael Varin
09-14-2009, 04:31 AM
Anderson Silva is definitely a cut above most UFC fighters.

He is getting to be Roy Jones Jr.-esque.

In my opinion what he is doing, though I don't fully understand it and think that it may be largely due to inherent ability, is much more impressive than "internal" stuff.

The truth is accurate strikes (between the chin and temples) that you don't see coming will be KOs every time.

He has mastered timing and distance and his mind is always utterly calm regardless of the body language he is displaying.

I used to be a huge Roy Jones Jr. fan back when he was in his prime. Frankly, he had this quality in a higher degree than Silva, but they both appear to be one move ahead of their opponents.

Personally, I believe Silva would defeat Machita, but it would be an interesting fight.

And no offense to anybody, but Anderson Silva would destroy Rob John. . . and no comparison can be made between kicks thrown in a fight and those on a pad being held by someone who is outweighed by ~30 pounds.