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Chris Li
03-24-2002, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by Edward
Some others completely misunderstand it too and try to make it a religion of peace and love ;)

Like M. Ueshiba, when he talked about Aikido being a path to unify the world family, or the path of Aikido being the path of protecting love? :)

Best,

Chris

Edward
03-24-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li


Like M. Ueshiba, when he talked about Aikido being a path to unify the world family, or the path of Aikido being the path of protecting love? :)

Best,

Chris

Honestly, and with all the due respect to the founder of our art, I think his ideas about unifying the world in one family and the like are completely weird. :)

However I try not to forget that no matter how weird and excentric these ideas are, they were behind the philosophy of aikido as we know it today and the actual application of techniques Ueshiba style which made it it different from other Aikijitsu arts.

Nonetheless, I can't keep myself from smiling when reading Osensei's quotes or seeing footages of his training. This guy was really different in all aspects :)

Cheers,
Edward

Edward
03-24-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Chuck Clark


In my experience, strong, powerful, effective technique in any art does not immediately imply violence.

Is a tornado violent? Is a lion killing a gazelle for lunch violent? etc.... I don't think so. Violence seems to me to belong to humans and possibly some apes. Just because something is forceful and even that harm is done at some level doesn't seem to neccesarily mean that its violent.

Violence seems to me to come from fear, anger, greed, jealousy, etc.

Maybe I'm not using the word violent the same way as many others do.

I'm interested to see what some others think about this subject.

Regards,

I really don't understand where the idea of the non-violent martial art came from.

I think it's rather using violence in a controlled way in order to subdue your ennemi instead of damaging him permanently.

You just have to compare footages of Osensei even when he was 78 years old and the intensity and realism with which he throws or controls his Uke, with some of the "relaxed" senseis at the yearly All Japan Aikido demonstration where it looks more like a joke or bad acting than martial arts and I feel really ashamed sometimes to show the embukai tapes to my friends.

On the other hand, I think non-violence means that you do not directly oppose the attack, avoiding thus doing possible injury to yourself while no one cares so much what you do to the ennemi, except probably the police ;)

Cheers,
Edward

Chris Li
03-25-2002, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by Edward
Honestly, and with all the due respect to the founder of our art, I think his ideas about unifying the world in one family and the like are completely weird. :)

However I try not to forget that no matter how weird and excentric these ideas are, they were behind the philosophy of aikido as we know it today and the actual application of techniques Ueshiba style which made it it different from other Aikijitsu arts.

Nonetheless, I can't keep myself from smiling when reading Osensei's quotes or seeing footages of his training. This guy was really different in all aspects :)


Different he was (that's not necessarily bad...). Anyway, I suppose that my point was that I've seen you make a number of posts advocating the importance of preserving Aikido as it was taught by the founder - by the same argument, shouldn't that also include "unifying the world family" and so forth, since he spent so much time, and placed so much importance, on those teachings?

My hunch is, if you asked M. Ueshiba to making a choice between changing technical details and changing philosophical details he would've chosen to preserve the philosophy first.

Best,

Chris

Edward
03-25-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Chris Li


Different he was (that's not necessarily bad...). Anyway, I suppose that my point was that I've seen you make a number of posts advocating the importance of preserving Aikido as it was taught by the founder - by the same argument, shouldn't that also include "unifying the world family" and so forth, since he spent so much time, and placed so much importance, on those teachings?

My hunch is, if you asked M. Ueshiba to making a choice between changing technical details and changing philosophical details he would've chosen to preserve the philosophy first.

Best,

Chris

Well, I guess you're right. However, Osensei himself passed through many periods in his way to developing aikido. I have the impression, and I might be wrong, that he became more religious and philosophical as he grew older. I myself, since I'm still 33 years old, would rather follow Osensei's example and do hard aikido first, changing my style progressively as I get older and physically weaker. Why do we have to copy Osensei's style when he was almost dying while we are still young and energetic? A good example of that is Gozo Shioda sensei. He said there is a natural evolution from hard to soft as we progress in aikido and as we get older. So there is no use to teach a young beginner to be soft but let him use his natural excess of energy, or something in this meaning... :confused:

erikmenzel
03-25-2002, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by Chris Li
My hunch is, if you asked M. Ueshiba to making a choice between changing technical details and changing philosophical details he would've chosen to preserve the philosophy first.


Assuming the two concepts are not intertwined. :ai:

nikonl
03-25-2002, 10:07 AM
Thank you everyone for their replies, i am definitely enlightened. :)

Chocolateuke
03-25-2002, 10:15 AM
This post really got off topic from segal to o-sensei and that is okay. but for the segal note, most of the back of the video jackets say segal using his deadly aikido or somthing along that line to deafeat such villian and all. anyhow, I personaly believe that hard training is more than just training it can transform your veiws in how you train and what aikido really means to you. it questions your intetions for training why do you keep coming back? it really does do that, I know :) it also helps create a strong base and helps you focus.

Chris Li
03-25-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Edward
Well, I guess you're right. However, Osensei himself passed through many periods in his way to developing aikido. I have the impression, and I might be wrong, that he became more religious and philosophical as he grew older. I myself, since I'm still 33 years old, would rather follow Osensei's example and do hard aikido first, changing my style progressively as I get older and physically weaker. Why do we have to copy Osensei's style when he was almost dying while we are still young and energetic? A good example of that is Gozo Shioda sensei. He said there is a natural evolution from hard to soft as we progress in aikido and as we get older. So there is no use to teach a young beginner to be soft but let him use his natural excess of energy, or something in this meaning... :confused:

My impression is that he was already heavily into the religious aspects when Shioda was training with him. He got his first "enlightenment" around 1925, and he was close to Deguchi from well before that (from around 1919 - Shioda didn't begin training until 1932). Shioda just wasn't very interested in that aspect - in Aikido Jinsei he says that M. Ueshiba talked about those concepts all the time, but he mostly didn't listen very closely.

In any case, I don't see any real reason why you can't be religious and philosophical and still do hard training. Training at Iwama after the war (when M. Ueshiba was at his most "philosophical") was pretty vigorous, from what I understand.

Best,

Chris

PeterR
03-25-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li
My impression is that he was already heavily into the religious aspects when Shioda was training with him. He got his first "enlightenment" around 1925, and he was close to Deguchi from well before that (from around 1919 - Shioda didn't begin training until 1932). Shioda just wasn't very interested in that aspect - in Aikido Jinsei he says that M. Ueshiba talked about those concepts all the time, but he mostly didn't listen very closely.

Tomiki apparently spent a lot of time as a young men studing the Omoto-kyo texts in an attempt to understand Ueshiba M.'s Aikido. Point being that I think Chris is completely right about this.

Irony
03-26-2002, 12:27 AM
While it may be true that O-Sensei's aikido evolved from hard to soft over a lifetime I see no reason to start at his beginning. Who am I to throw away wisdom it took O-Sensei a lifetime to achieve? Philosophies gleaned later in life are no less valid because of the age of the philosopher, probably more so. I certainly would not want to endure the things that shaped his beliefs over the course of his life, a World War not the least of them, merely to be able to appreciate "soft" aikido.

At 6'6", 250lbs, I could certainly do some damage were I to adhere to a hard, more agressive style. But I realize that even though I'm big and strong now at 22, I will not always be. I would not want to try to change my aikido fifty years in to accomodate my stiffening body.

So. Personally I am a fan of "intense" training; fast paced, energetic. But I still take the softest ukemi I can and try to ease the pain of those I throw.

But then, aikido is a very personal art. Do what you want; more power to you. Just my view.

Johan Tibell
03-26-2002, 05:17 AM
Chris,

I agree to much of what you said but I also disagree to some extent (or I could have misinterpreted what you said, I'm Swedish so... :))

Sometimes I feel that many of the people who try to start of soft really are trying to jump on the train somewhere in the middle. They have missed some of the understanding of the basic "hard" techniques thus their soft techniques will always miss the "edge" that would make them even better. Just looking at O-Sensei during one of his demonstrations and try to copy that will create nothing more than a pretty dance. (IMHO!)

As usual my not so very good English will probably not get my point trough. *sigh*

- Johan

Bruce Baker
03-26-2002, 12:34 PM
I don't think O'Sensei was in fact refering to the method of 'martial arts Aikido' as he was to the spirit it takes to be at peace with yourself and others about the globe?

The best explanation I have heard is Shirata Sensei saying that Aikido was not to change the religion or social makeup of a person, but was the end result of each person finding peace within his/her own religion, and social values. If you are alligned with your god, and I am alligned with my god, then with that spirit of love, we just have to be able to get along ... (something to that nature.)

A story from a student who teaches here in New Jersey ... I have more but I am saving the video for blackmail at a later date, or lunch, what ever it is worth?

O'Sensei was refering to many things, in concrete, but sometimes abstract thoughts drawn from actual facts. For instance, holding a man down with one finger, was the man on the ground one finger and O'Sensei using presence and fingerlock to hold down the uke? Misinterpretation, bad translation?

O'Sensei is not the only one trying to unite the world with peace ... many of the Native Americans have been on record for two hundred years, looking ahead seven generations trying to do the same thing? Maybe, he was sensitive enough to realize the same attitude was needed to change the destructive tendancys of human beings? Not so far fetched when many of us, in many countries come together to practice Aikido, learn about other people, countries, and customs to make a better world?

Maybe, once we get simulated three-d training rooms for you energetic ones who want to prove your metal, then the tone of tuff guys will be tempered by death in the training room, two or three times?

Until then, we will just have to play nice and try to do the best we can, shalln't we?

Chris Li
03-26-2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Johan Tibell
Chris,

I agree to much of what you said but I also disagree to some extent (or I could have misinterpreted what you said, I'm Swedish so... :))

Sometimes I feel that many of the people who try to start of soft really are trying to jump on the train somewhere in the middle. They have missed some of the understanding of the basic "hard" techniques thus their soft techniques will always miss the "edge" that would make them even better. Just looking at O-Sensei during one of his demonstrations and try to copy that will create nothing more than a pretty dance. (IMHO!)

As usual my not so very good English will probably not get my point trough. *sigh*

- Johan

You'll notice that I never once mentioned "hard" and "soft". My point was that even at his hardest (pre-war Kobukan) M. Ueshiba was extremely philosophical. Philosophical does not equal soft. If you look closely, the main tenets of his philosophy are basically unchanged from 1925 to 1965.

Best,

Chris

Karl
03-26-2002, 10:07 PM
It seems to me that you can be nice to your uke while doing "hard" Aikido.
Hurting your uke is never something you want to do, even if your going a million miles an hour.
I try to be a nice as I can to my ukes while trying to do my best at the technique at the same time.
Fast and "hard" also doesn't make the technique, its the way you do it and how much of your center, ect. that makes the technique.

:ai:
:ki:
:do: