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John Longford
08-27-2009, 03:12 PM
I have just been reading through the posts on the latest Seagal Seagal thread. This is not the first time that I have been appalled by the extremely nasty personal attacks on fellow members. Are some of you really Aikidoka?
Over the time there have been a lot of replies that I do not agree with and some do annoy me but unless I have something constructive to say or can question the opinion of the writer politely I refrain from answering.
Perhaps I am wrong what do you think?
Incidentally I first learnt the 24 hour rule in business. When I received a letter that really wound me up (and trust me, in the construction industry there are plenty of those) I waited 24 hours before replying.
"It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it"

gdandscompserv
08-27-2009, 03:17 PM
John,
Of course you are right. But who are you to tell me how to behave you %^$87$#@ *(%^^$#.;)
Ricky

Ron Tisdale
08-27-2009, 03:22 PM
Hi John,

Yes, you are right. And some of us forget ourselves in the heat of the moment, and that 24 hour rule goes right out the window.

I think all we can do is each one of us regulate ourselves, and perhaps gently remind each other as you are doing here.

Best,
Ron

Michael Douglas
08-27-2009, 03:57 PM
also ... it'd be a slow thread if every reply takes 24 hours ...

Marc Abrams
08-27-2009, 03:59 PM
John:

1) This forum is a place for people to express their opinions. Opinions are like rectums, and funnily enough, we can all act like them (myself included :) .

2) When you ask if some of us are Aikidoka, it begs the question as to how you define what an Aikidoka is and is not?

I for one, enjoy a vigorous debate, just as much as I like intense training experiences. However, things work themselves out in an intense training environment that simply cannot be "vetted" on an internet forum. This is particularly the case when people claim hidden "magic" that they are "forbidden" to reveal to outsiders. This may be the case if you are a member of a formal koryu, but no such thing exists in Aikido. Another class of cases occur when people make claims about things and/or throw out data as though they have some understanding as to what they are saying AND DO NOT OWN UP TO A LACK OF EXPERIENCE, KNOWLEDGE,.....

I would agree that the name calling can get ridiculous at times and people need to cool down at times. This process sometimes serves to weed out "wheat from the chafe." This can also be beneficial. Ultimately, it seems that those who have been around the forums for significant periods of time end up finding ways to discuss serious topics in meaningful manners, even if that means agreeing to disagree.

Ricky:

I'm with you dude! One of my sayings (egotistically called Marcisms) is "Life is too serious to take seriously!" Rock On Dude :D !

Marc Abrams

mathewjgano
08-27-2009, 05:27 PM
One of my sayings (egotistically called Marcisms) is "Life is too serious to take seriously!" Rock On Dude :D !

Marc Abrams

Marc! I am dismayed. That saying is clearly a plagiarized form of the famous Mattism: "Life is the only thing so serious you cannot take it seriously." Now I must seriously insist you cease and desist usage or I could very well whine and complain a lot!
You have been warned!evileyes :D
Matt

ninjaqutie
08-27-2009, 05:42 PM
You all are a hoot.... HAHA... who says hoot anymore.... LOL

gdandscompserv
08-27-2009, 06:02 PM
You all are a hoot.... HAHA... who says hoot anymore.... LOL
Who gives a hoot who says hoot anymore?
:D

Buck
08-27-2009, 06:23 PM
I have just been reading through the posts on the latest Seagal Seagal thread. This is not the first time that I have been appalled by the extremely nasty personal attacks on fellow members. Are some of you really Aikidoka?
Over the time there have been a lot of replies that I do not agree with and some do annoy me but unless I have something constructive to say or can question the opinion of the writer politely I refrain from answering.
Perhaps I am wrong what do you think?
Incidentally I first learnt the 24 hour rule in business. When I received a letter that really wound me up (and trust me, in the construction industry there are plenty of those) I waited 24 hours before replying.
"It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it"

Yea....that is a problem, I know what you mean. It is sad that things take such an ugly and unsavory turn. And the problem isn't taken serious or treated seriously by some.

Abasan
08-27-2009, 11:09 PM
Well someone's gotta supply the discord if any of you losers are going to practice harmony, you can't exactly practice achieving harmony when everyone's hanky dory rite? :D

aikidoc
08-27-2009, 11:47 PM
It is one thing to vigorously debate an issue or idea and quite another to attack someone personally without even knowing them.

Michael Hackett
08-28-2009, 01:28 AM
That ol' Texas boy is right! The former requires intellect and the latter requires hubric vitreol.

Rabih Shanshiry
08-28-2009, 04:00 AM
You all are a hoot.... HAHA... who says hoot anymore.... LOL

I think the term these days is woot. Don't ask me what it means.

Ron Tisdale
08-28-2009, 07:41 AM
Of course, I'll also always remember a sig line from Chas Clements over at rec.martial-arts newsgroup...

a bunch of martial artists got together and a fight broke out...quelle surprise... :D :eek:

Best,
Ron

John Longford
08-28-2009, 11:25 AM
Hi Michael,
It would indeed be a slow thread if everyone waited 24 hours. I simply suggested that if a post really winds you up that you wait and calm down before replying.
Marc,
I also enjoy a good debate but name calling is not debating. When someone does that they are in essence saying: "Only my opinion counts. If you disagree then you must be an idiot"
When I asked if some on the writers were really Aikidoka it is because I expect an Aikidoka to be polite and respect others. Surely this is a basic tenet of any Dojo.

Mark Uttech
08-29-2009, 06:29 AM
Onegaishimasu. Getting our buttons pushed is the life experience.
In gassho,

Mark

Kevin Leavitt
08-29-2009, 08:09 AM
YOU GOT SOMETHING TO SAY "MARK". HUH? Do Ya?

Marc Abrams
08-29-2009, 10:07 AM
YOU GOT SOMETHING TO SAY "MARK". HUH? Do Ya?

Oh Kevin,

Your village style of "Type-Fun Fu" is weak. I have been studying at six schools of strong Type-Fun Fu and spend all day in severe, austere practice with websurf combat. I know how to defeat your keyboard easily by citing web facts that will both confuse, impress and disable you! :eek:

Marc Abrams

Kevin Leavitt
08-29-2009, 12:07 PM
yeah...Marc..you just wanna get inside my OODA loop with your Type-Fun-Fu with all those facts. Heck you don't even need facts, opinions and red herrings work just as well.

Marc Abrams
08-29-2009, 12:54 PM
yeah...Marc..you just wanna get inside my OODA loop with your Type-Fun-Fu with all those facts. Heck you don't even need facts, opinions and red herrings work just as well.

OH NO!

Not the dreaded red herring evileyes ! I have been defeated at last........

Marc Abrams

DonMagee
08-29-2009, 02:10 PM
What's with all the straw man tactics in this thread?

Kent Enfield
08-30-2009, 10:30 AM
Are some of you really Aikidoka?
As opposed to the boors, degenerates, and general assholes who practice other martial arts?

David Orange
08-30-2009, 10:56 AM
I have just been reading through the posts on the latest Seagal Seagal thread. This is not the first time that I have been appalled by the extremely nasty personal attacks on fellow members. Are some of you really Aikidoka?

John, I have to admit that I, myself, got a bit carried away with some of my remarks on that thread but I made a real effort to limit my critique to Seagal's movies and not his character as a person. I did not always succeed in that. For one thing, I didn't notice that the title was "Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher".

Anyway, my main point was that Seagal had seriously abused aikido and the general public by presenting our art backward and portraying it as just another way to express hateful personal superiority over all. It stinks to me and I wanted to express that, and I did, to some displeasure from some other people.

The truth is, there have been many "greats" in aikido, including some of the head teachers in the main line of aikikai, who were known as brutal jerks who liked to hurt people but even those people would never have dreamed of presenting aikido on a large public scale in the way Seagal has done, for personal profit, so I felt obliged to point out that difference in clear terms.

Over the time there have been a lot of replies that I do not agree with and some do annoy me but unless I have something constructive to say or can question the opinion of the writer politely I refrain from answering.
Perhaps I am wrong what do you think?

You seem like a pretty reasonable fellow, I think. However, some situations call for a bit of unreasonableness and part of my intent was to elicit some of the very kinds of responses I got from people who had trained directly with Seagal so that we could see some of the contents of their minds and ponder what part Steven Seagal's transmission had played in developing such minds and attitudes. I got pretty much what I wanted and expected to see and it's now out there for all to see.

"It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and confirm it"

You're right. Of course, when making movies that will last for decades, if not centuries, I think even more discretion is called for.

Best to you.

David

Ron Tisdale
08-31-2009, 07:15 AM
Hi David,

I think you know that I like and respect you, but I can't say that I can support your tactics in that thread. The fact of the matter is that I have met Shaun, and I don't think the behavior you created in that thread says anything about his relationship with a former instructor. You just showed that everyone has buttons, and that when pushed hard enough, those buttons work.

Frankly, I was very disappointed. I personally think you owe Shaun an appology. Not for your opinions. But for your behavior.

Best,
Ron (not that what I think should matter to you)

John Longford
08-31-2009, 11:27 AM
Hi David,
I only mentioned the Seagal thread because that was the latest one in which I felt the postings were getting out of hand. I have never met him so I do not have any particular views on the man although I must admit I was surprised at the slagging off his movies got. Guys they are just films. I enjoyed his early films, it made a change to see Aikido on the screen. His later films are absolute rubbish.
How many of you rate Enter the Dragon? I know I do and it is probably responsible for more people taking up martial arts at the time than anything else. If you analyse it too much, however, it is just a very violent revenge movie.
Anyway, I digress, let's just keep it civilized

Kevin Leavitt
08-31-2009, 11:38 AM
Many people believe that as a public figure and an aikidoka that Seagal should choose his actions/movies to reflect the character/ethics that are what many of us espouse to as aikidoka.

Me personally, well what I aspire to and what I am actually capable of doing and my professional life are sometimes at odds.

I tend to cut Seagal some slack as I don't know him personally, we are all humans, world needs more compassion than it needs critics, and I don't necessarily judge folks based on the characters they play in movies.

That said, I don't think it gives us a right to judge others, lest we hold ourselves to the same level of scrutiny...and we certainly should not be beating each other up on aikiweb over something so trivial.

I tend to see the irony in the whole conversation actually!

Ron Tisdale
08-31-2009, 12:13 PM
Hi Kevin, not to mention that what someone else does really doesn't affect our own training one bit.

David Valadez used to remind me of that...I still forget it from time to time. There are two threads going on now here and on another board where I used to charge in and decry someone presenting themselves or their training falsely. I've stopped doing that these days. Basically, it's buyer beware, as with anything else. I do feel badly for those who get caught up in the schemes. But it is not worth the safety risk, the online aggravation, or my teacher getting emails as a result of the controversy. There are some strange people out there...and if you tick off the wrong one, they may come knocking. I can do without the extra drama...life provides enough as it is.

Best,
Ron (and it really doesn't affect my training, so...)

akiy
08-31-2009, 12:22 PM
Hi folks,

If you wish to talk about Steven Seagal specifically, please do so in a separate thread. Thank you.

-- Jun

Kevin Leavitt
08-31-2009, 12:52 PM
Good points Ron. I need to remember that myself. It is easy to fall into the trap/mindset for sure.

Sorry Jun!

ninjaqutie
08-31-2009, 09:39 PM
Just to go off of something previously said about films not showing how someone or something truly is. I work in the field of forensic science and let me tell you... CSI is a bullcrap show! Like Seagal, CSI, it has brought a lot of attention to the field and thus more funding. Just goes to show you can't always base something off of a show or movie. Most intellectual people seem to understand this (at least to some extent)