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03-25-2002, 12:10 PM
Discuss the article, "Did Morihei Ueshiba Invent Aikido?" by Peter Boylan here.

Article URL: http://www.aikiweb.com/general/boylan1.html

Dean H.
03-25-2002, 10:19 PM
Nothing under the sun is new....right?
-Dean
:triangle: :circle: :square:

Edward
03-26-2002, 03:17 AM
If you take it from this point of view, yes, Peter is right! Osensei did not invent Aikido, Kano did not invent Judo, Funakoshi did not invent Karate. If you want to push this concept further, Jesus Christ did not invent Christianity because all the concepts existed befor in other eastern religions. Buddha did not invent Buddhism since in china Taoists had already discovered his principles many hunderd years before.... etc.

Isn't it much simpler to say, Ueshiba is the father of modern aikido as we know it today?

Greg Jennings
03-26-2002, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Dean H.
Nothing under the sun is new....right?
-Dean
:triangle: :circle: :square:

It depends on whether you are a Platonist or a Nominalist....

Best,

Peter Boylan
03-26-2002, 10:57 AM
Actually, I'd say that Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, Kenji Tomiki and Koichi Tohei are responsible for aikdio as we know it today. Ueshiba M. wasn't known for teaching things. He did something, and it was your job to figure it out. His students organized and codified the art, giving us the 4 very distinct branches of Aikido that most people know of: Aikikai, Yoshinkai, Shodokan, and Ki No Kenkyukai. These are really the creations of the first generation, not of the founder.

Peter Boylan

Bruce Baker
03-27-2002, 07:49 AM
If we look at the facts of who gets credit verses taking the ingredients and baking the cake, I guess for marketing K. Ueshiba, the son, should get credit, by the standards of the business world? Right?

This is the first post that actually touches on the subject of Aikido the practice, not the invention of the word Aikido, not entirely being the invention of O'Sensei? But, like a chef who cooks the same meal, cake, or recipe better than anyone else, should that constitute being crowned the inventor, or the creator, or merely the best there was at that particular time with the clearest vision?

Actually, Christ did not invent Christianity, he merely pointed the way to become closer to God, as did many other religious figures ... within the knowledge and understanding of moral and social values of the day? What the followers did with what they were taught or enhanced to learn bring it to the masses, then it became those religions. In that context, Morehei Ueshiba became the icon of Aikido much like the corporate businessmen who found international company's? He did encourage student to go abroad, didn't he?

Yeah, even Ginchin Funakoshi talks about the history of Karate being very old, not his invention, but the clarification of the word 'Kara' being changed from the meaning of China to 'open' when introduced to Japan as Open-hand. That has to do with ethnic friction between China and Japan over centurys of invasion/warfare.

In this, less godly manifestation, our MA Icons/ religious Icons become human beings who show skill and determination to provide for their family, enhance the public welfare, and generally try to make the world a better place. If that means taking the ingredients of what exists today, mixing them into something slightly different from what has come before with a new name, then that could be an invention, but I wouldn't forget to find its history? History explains a lot of the hardships people try to overcome with their efforts .... some of them being the efforts and teachings hundreds, or a thousand years old ... baked into a better tasting cake?

Marketing sells the product, BABY!
That and throwing people across the room ...

Chris Li
03-31-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Peter Boylan
Actually, I'd say that Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, Kenji Tomiki and Koichi Tohei are responsible for aikdio as we know it today. Ueshiba M. wasn't known for teaching things. He did something, and it was your job to figure it out. His students organized and codified the art, giving us the 4 very distinct branches of Aikido that most people know of: Aikikai, Yoshinkai, Shodokan, and Ki No Kenkyukai. These are really the creations of the first generation, not of the founder.

Peter Boylan

Hmm, so if I organize and sytemize a system for presenting and teaching the concepts embodied in the theory of relativity would you say that I was the creator of the theory of relativity and not Einstein? After all, he never created a comprehensive system for instruction in his theories...

Not to discount the contributions of any of the people above, but IMO there's a large difference between what M. Ueshiba did and what they did. Eliminate any one of them and Aikido (while it would be different) would still be around. Eliminate M. Ueshiba and Aikido wouldn't exist at all.

As to the "the elements already existed" argument, I don't agree with that one either. Glass, wire, and electricity were already in existance, but we still say that Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb. By your line of reasoning it would be impossible for anyone ever to create anything, because the elements are always in existance previously. Now, I suppose that you could argue that (some people do), but it seems to me to fly in the face of the normal usage of the word "create" or "invent".

Best,

Chris

Edward
03-31-2002, 11:34 PM
I have had the chance last weekend to review my old Daitoryu and Aikijujitsu videos. I have to admit that sometimes when we read the posts on this forum, our thoughts become sometimes confused and we're not sure anymore if our knowledge is correct or not, and we start doubting.

Fortunately, after having seen the videos, I am very relieved to reach the very obvious conclusion that M. Ueshiba did actually "create" Aikido. Eventhough several throws and armlocks do look somehow similar in their conclusion, but also do many techniques that I see in WWF. Did WWF evolve from Daitoryu too? Now seriously, if you're not able to see the huge gap between Aikido and its predecessors, and the genius of M. Ueshiba, then there is no need to discuss this matter further ;)

Cheers,
Edward

Chris Li
03-31-2002, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Edward
Fortunately, after having seen the videos, I am very relieved to reach the very obvious conclusion that M. Ueshiba did actually "create" Aikido. Eventhough several throws and armlocks do look somehow similar in their conclusion, but also do many techniques that I see in WWF. Did WWF evolve from Daitoryu too? Now seriously, if you're not able to see the huge gap between Aikido and its predecessors, and the genius of M. Ueshiba, then there is no need to discuss this matter further ;)

Cheers,

Edward

I've trained in more than one line of Daito-ryu (including the main line) and seen most of the others (and not on video). I've also trained in most of the major Aikido groups at one time or the other.

I have to disagree. Technically the gap between Daito-ryu and Aikido is not that great. Probably not great enough, IMO, to say that M. Ueshiba "created" the technical side of the art.

OTOH, I think that M. Ueshiba had a conception of a purpose and philosophy of training that very clearly delineates it from Daito-ryu.

Best,

Chris

Edward
04-01-2002, 01:11 AM
Actually, one of the videos I have seen is a demonstration in Japan commemorating some anniversary (sorry my memory about dates really sucks!) of Daitoryu. I think the demonstration possibly took place in 1986 (or 96?), I can verify that later. The thing is many Japanese arts were invited to demonstrate including the Hombu Dojo (both Aikikai and Yoshinkan). Aikikai was represented by Osawa Sensei (Junior), that time he was 6 dan.

His demonstration was simply brilliant! And clearly in a class of its own compared to the stiff and linear styles of the different Daitoryu schools present at the event. This is in no way criticising these arts, but simply saying that Aikido was on a different level.

I do agree that Aikido uses basically the same techniques as its predecessors (obviously much less in number) but the way the attacks are intercepted and dealt with before reaching the final conclusion of the technique with a pin or throw, together with the dynamism of the attacks and the flow and grace of the whole thing, this is what makes Aikido unique.

Or maybe I'm just blinded by my bias for Aikido :)

Cheers,
Edward

Chris Li
04-01-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Edward
His demonstration was simply brilliant! And clearly in a class of its own compared to the stiff and linear styles of the different Daitoryu schools present at the event. This is in no way criticising these arts, but simply saying that Aikido was on a different level.

All I can say is, if you think that Daito-ryu is stiff and linear then you need to feel some more Daito-ryu :) .

Best,

Chris

deepsoup
04-01-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li

As to the "the elements already existed" argument, I don't agree with that one either. Glass, wire, and electricity were already in existance, but we still say that Thomas Edison invented the lightbulb. By your line of reasoning it would be impossible for anyone ever to create anything, because the elements are always in existance previously. Now, I suppose that you could argue that (some people do), but it seems to me to fly in the face of the normal usage of the word "create" or "invent".


This isn't really relevant to the discussion about Aikido, but on the subject of the light bulb, Thomas Edison isn't the best example you could choose to support your point! :)

A year or so before Edison patented his invention it had already been patented and commercially exploited by Sir Joseph Swan.

Swan and Edison hadn't been aware of each others' work. There was a legal battle (though I dont know who was suing whom), and in the end Edison took Swan on as a business partner. Together they founded the enormously successfull Edison-Swan company.

Neither man was the first to actually make a light bulb though, by almost a century. They were both building on work done by lots of earlier engineers. (Humphrey Davy demonstrated a light bulb of sorts in 1902, almost 80 years before Swan and Edison's patents.)

I did a little Google search and found a page (http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1330.htm) about the invention of the light bulb with a final paragraph which might be relevant to a debate about whether Ueshiba M. was really the 'inventor' of Aikido after all though:

"There is no single inventor of any great technology. Ideas rise out of a whole community. But people who can put full-blown systems together are rare. And in that sense, maybe it is fair to say that Edison invented the light bulb, after all."

regards
Sean
x

thomson
04-02-2002, 07:19 AM
(Humphrey Davy demonstrated a light bulb of sorts in 1902, almost 80 years before Swan and Edison's patents.)

We didn't have light bulbs until 1982? No wonder the seventies were so dark.

:D

thomson
04-02-2002, 07:20 AM
Sorry, I tried, but I couldn't help myself. :p It was too obvious and funny. :D

deepsoup
04-02-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by thomson
Sorry, I tried, but I couldn't help myself. :p It was too obvious and funny. :D

No that's just fine, I walked into that one chin first didn't I ?
(I did of course mean 1802, Swan patented his light bulb in 1879 and Edison patented his in 1880)

Sean
x

tedehara
04-02-2002, 03:20 PM
During the last year of Morihei Ueshiba's life, Isao Takahashi Sensei (http://www.aikido-world.com/dedications/takahashi.htm) was invited to join the founder for two weeks at Iwami. When he got back, he spoke about a moment he had with O Sensei.

They were walking down a road, when O Sensei suddenly turned to him and said, "I'm finally beginning to understand what this Aikido thing is.".

For O Sensei, Aikido was something that was already there. Like the sky, earth or ocean, it was there before he was born and would exist long after he was gone.

Aikido was something that happened when O Sensei practiced. He didn't consciously invent or plan it. He would also have to try and understand Aikido, just like the rest of us.

Bronson
04-03-2002, 03:49 AM
For O Sensei, Aikido was something that was already there. Like the sky, earth or ocean, it was there before he was born and would exist long after he was gone

So if we run with that would it be more correct to say that O Sensei "discovered" aikido?

Bronson

tedehara
04-03-2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Bronson Diffin
So if we run with that would it be more correct to say that O Sensei "discovered" aikido?

Discovered seems too strong of a word for me. I would say O Sensei emphasized Aiki in his practice. Other people did Aiki Arts like Daito Ryu Aiki-jitsu, but no one displayed the Aiki Spirit as strongly as Morihea Ueshiba.

Both the founder and his teacher, Sogaku Takeda, realized that what he was doing was sufficiently different from Aiki-jitsu that it needed a different name. Among these other possible names were Aiki Budo and Aiki No Michi, both emphasizing Aiki and a way of life.

Some people portray the founder like he was some highly intelligent Martial Arts Engineer, who came up with a break-through design in the Combat Arts. But that is just a reflection of their own perspective of a westernized, modern view. Actually the founder was a throwback, someone with the psychological make-up of Ancient Japan. This was reflected in his writings and language. Modern Japanese had a difficult/impossble time understanding him, since he wasn't really from their time.

Like Peter Boylan remarked, it would be up to his students to present Aikido to the modern world.

Chris Li
04-03-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by tedehara

Discovered seems too strong of a word for me. I would say O Sensei emphasized Aiki in his practice. Other people did Aiki Arts like Daito Ryu Aiki-jitsu, but no one displayed the Aiki Spirit as strongly as Morihea Ueshiba.

First thing - "aiki" as Daito Ryu talks about it and "aiki" as M. Ueshiba talked about it can be two quite different things. Also, emphasizing aiki in his practice or not is not really the same thing as his conception of Aikido as a seperate art, which is really delineated on a philosophical basis.

As to "no one displayed the Aiki Spirit as strongly as Morihea Ueshiba", well, there are plenty of people that would argue that point. He's certainly the most well known. At this point who was strongest in aiki is sort of a moot point, since there's no real way to tell for sure.


Both the founder and his teacher, Sogaku Takeda, realized that what he was doing was sufficiently different from Aiki-jitsu that it needed a different name. Among these other possible names were Aiki Budo and Aiki No Michi, both emphasizing Aiki and a way of life.


He went through a bunch of names, for various reasons, but I don't think that Takeda was quite as complacent about it as you make him appear.

Best,

Chris

tedehara
04-03-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Chris Li
First thing - "aiki" as Daito Ryu talks about it and "aiki" as M. Ueshiba talked about it can be two quite different things.
Could you explain what you see as the difference?
Originally posted by Chris Li
...Also, emphasizing aiki in his practice or not is not really the same thing as his conception of Aikido as a seperate art, which is really delineated on a philosophical basis...
Are you saying that the only diffence between Aikido and Aiki-jitsu is the philosopy? There is no different direction that can be found in the techniques of the two Arts?
Originally posted by Chris Li
...He went through a bunch of names, for various reasons, but I don't think that Takeda was quite as complacent about it as you make him appear...
I mentioned the name change and Takeda to show that two experts both agreed that what Morihei Ueshiba was doing should no longer be called Aiki-jitsu.

Why do you think Takeda was more actively involved?

Chris Li
04-03-2002, 05:24 PM
First thing - "aiki" as Daito Ryu talks about it and "aiki" as M. Ueshiba talked about it can be two quite different things.

Originally posted by tedehara


Could you explain what you see as the difference?


For the most part, when Daito-ryu folks talk about "aiki" they're making a technical reference. M. Ueshiba talked about "aiki" in a philosophical sense. He said himself many times that the "aiki" that he was talking about was different from the previous uses of the word.



Are you saying that the only diffence between Aikido and Aiki-jitsu is the philosopy? There is no different direction that can be found in the techniques of the two Arts?

Are there technical differences? Sure, but you have to remember that neither Aikido nor Daito-ryu are monolithic. They both cover wide ranges of technical variation. They're close enough that, IMO, if M. Ueshiba had kept the name Daito-ryu nobody would have thought it odd (in the technical sense).




I mentioned the name change and Takeda to show that two experts both agreed that what Morihei Ueshiba was doing should no longer be called Aiki-jitsu.

Why do you think Takeda was more actively involved?

I didn't say involved, I said not "complacent". So far as I know there was never any "agreement" between the two. The had various disagreements for a number of reasons and M. Ueshiba ended up going his own way. Ueshiba changed the name several times, but the name of Daito-ryu itself was also in flux around that time. What I was saying was that the split was probably not as amicable as you made it appear.

Best,

Chris

tedehara
04-06-2002, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by Chris Li
For the most part, when Daito-ryu folks talk about "aiki" they're making a technical reference...
Whe I started to read The Way to Union with Ki by K. Tohei, I realized he was talking about the cosmic or philisophical level, rather than the individual and technical level of aiki, that I'm used to. So its not only Daito-ryu folks who think like that. Perhaps Morihei Ueshiba's use of the term was new at that time, but I personally don't see this as a difference today.

BTW can you buy the Japanese version of Tohei's book? The English version is only sold to KS members so far. If you can, what is the price? I thought you might know since you're in Japan.
Originally posted by Chris Li

...They're close enough that, IMO, if M. Ueshiba had kept the name Daito-ryu nobody would have thought it odd (in the technical sense)...
We're not living in individual villages, developing our own styles of martial arts. People get out and train with each other. I'm sure Aiki-jitsu and Aikido will inspire each other as long as people train in both arts. Perhaps this is the reason they both look so much alike today.
Originally posted by Chris Li
I didn't say involved, I said not "complacent". So far as I know there was never any "agreement" between the two...
I think we're talking pass each other here. The only agreement I was talking about was the fact that both Takeda and M. Ueshiba agreed that the founder's practice should be called something other than Daito-ryu Aiki-jitsu. This has nothing to do with their long-term relationship.

Chris Li
04-06-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by tedehara

BTW can you buy the Japanese version of Tohei's book? The English version is only sold to KS members so far. If you can, what is the price? I thought you might know since you're in Japan.


No idea. I'm still working my way through "Take Musu Aiki" - it'd go faster if M. Ueshiba ever used anything like normal Japanese :) .



We're not living in individual villages, developing our own styles of martial arts. People get out and train with each other. I'm sure Aiki-jitsu and Aikido will inspire each other as long as people train in both arts. Perhaps this is the reason they both look so much alike today.


The reason that they look alike is that Aikido is almost entirely based (on a technical level) on Daito-ryu.



I think we're talking pass each other here. The only agreement I was talking about was the fact that both Takeda and M. Ueshiba agreed that the founder's practice should be called something other than Daito-ryu Aiki-jitsu. This has nothing to do with their long-term relationship.

Well, that's the thing, I don't think that they ever agreed on anything much concerning the split that formed between them. M. Ueshiba did change the name to Aikido later on, but that had nothing to do with Takeda. The names changed around before that, but I don't ever recall an instance in which they reached any kind of agreement on that point - what's your source for this?

Best,

Chris

Suru
05-06-2002, 02:16 AM
It seems to me that Ueshiba invented aikiDO from the preexisting aikiWAZA. He established it as a way instead of just empty technique.

Drew

Chris Li
05-06-2002, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Suru
It seems to me that Ueshiba invented aikiDO from the preexisting aikiWAZA. He established it as a way instead of just empty technique.

Drew

Hmm...

1) What's "empty" about Daito-ryu?

2) Have you studied enough Daito-ryu to have any idea whether it's "empty" or not?

Best,

Chris

Edward
05-06-2002, 03:29 AM
I guess we aikidoists tend to think that aikido is unique in its philosophy. But let's not forget that all Japanese MA are based on the Budo ideal, with all what it represents.

Osensei's aikido is based on an even higher philosophy. That's true. But not all aikido styles accept his vision. Yoshinkai aikido for instance never mention Osensei philosophy but does this mean that their technique is empty? I don't think so. Because it's full of Budo spirit.

On the other hand, Chris, if you take out the philosophical side from aikido and leave only the technical, you would get something like the Yoshinkai. Does this make it similar to Daito-Ryu? I guess not. I myself see a great difference.

Cheers,
Edward

Chris Li
05-06-2002, 03:36 AM
Originally posted by Edward
I guess we aikidoists tend to think that aikido is unique in its philosophy. But let's not forget that all Japanese MA are based on the Budo ideal, with all what it represents.

The Budo ideal? What exactly is that?


IOsensei's aikido is based on an even higher philosophy. That's true. But not all aikido styles accept his vision. Yoshinkai aikido for instance never mention Osensei philosophy but does this mean that their technique is empty? I don't think so. Because it's full of Budo spirit.

Actually, if you read what Gozo Shioda actually wrote he talks quite a bit about the philosophy. He's just not as religious in his terminology (a lot of Aikikai folks aren't either).

A "higher" philosophy? I won't even touch that one :) . Different, sure, "higherW, well I suppose it depends on whose point of view you're looking from...


On the other hand, Chris, if you take out the philosophical side from aikido and leave only the technical, you would get something like the Yoshinkai. Does this make it similar to Daito-Ryu? I guess not. I myself see a great difference.

Cheers,
Edward

See the above.

Best,

Chris

Kenn
05-06-2002, 06:27 AM
Ya know, I always love reading these threads. Aikido history is interesting. However, when the same banter has been going on for over a month, and it starts becoming, well this happened in O sensei's dojo, no it didn't this happened, and Takeda said this , no he didn't,......I can't wanting to scream WHO CARES.......and repeat what many have before me.......shut up and train train train.

My opinion only, you are entitled to yours, however wrong you may be.

Peace, Kenn

Edward
05-06-2002, 09:58 AM
With all due respect, could you please tell us how often do you practice, how come are you reading this thread instead of shutting up and training, and who is forcing you to read the threads?





Originally posted by Kenn
Ya know, I always love reading these threads. Aikido history is interesting. However, when the same banter has been going on for over a month, and it starts becoming, well this happened in O sensei's dojo, no it didn't this happened, and Takeda said this , no he didn't,......I can't wanting to scream WHO CARES.......and repeat what many have before me.......shut up and train train train.

My opinion only, you are entitled to yours, however wrong you may be.

Peace, Kenn

Kenn
05-06-2002, 01:46 PM
Awwwwww, don't get all riled. I was only pokin' fun. In answer to your questions, I try to train at least 3 times a week. Wish I could do more, but.....family, work, etc.

I have no problem with posting or reading on this thread. I just found that discussion a bit petty is all.

Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion, however wrong you may be.

Peace, Kenn

senshincenter
05-06-2002, 05:31 PM
I can't say I have any kind of answer to this point - perhaps someone who has spent more time with the historical sources than I can lend a hand. I am wondering if two particular aspects of Aikido can be attributed to Osensei - as the first person to bring these elements into Budo (which I will list below in the last paragraph). Before I list the elements though, I would like to comment briefly upon the discussion up to this point.

I would have to agree with Peter in the sense that one can certainly point to both technical and philosophical antecedents, prior to Osensei, in regards to what has become known as Aikido. Hence, if the absence of these things is what you need to refer to Osensei as the inventor of Aikido - you really aren't justified then in calling him an inventor. This goes all the way from the superficial, such as kote-gaeshi, or clearing the line of attack, or not resisting force with force, to the more "mysterious," such as a martial art being a means of self-cultivation (e.g. purification, spiritual awakening, being a good citizen, bringing about a social peace, etc.). The presence of these antecedents is a historical fact and is, in my opinion, really beyond dispute. So here, I would whole-heartedly agree with Peter. In this sensei, Osensei did not invent Aikido.

On the same note, Iím not sure how fruitful it may be to point out or to speak of "stylistic" demarcations (so that one can say that there is some sort of structural break between Daito-ryu and Aikido on the basis of style) since one can hardly point out a definitive something that could be called an "Aikido style". (I think we can see this absence of a definitive style in the part of the thread where the two discussants are stating different experiences with both Aikido and Daito-ryu.) What I mean by this is that Aikido as an art has always had many "stylistic" interpretations and will always continue to do so. This is not to say that some "styles" are not more representative than others. I am only saying that because we cannot really count out, on the grounds of stylistic variation, one style as "non-Aikido," it's hard to use "style" as a criteria for determining what IS Aikido. Some people are hard, some are soft, some are circular, some are linear - some are all things at all times, some are all things at different parts in their lives, etc. Still, this is not to say that there is not some sort of "break" between Daito-ryu and Aikido - this is only to say that matters of style may not be our best means of describing this break. It is in this light that I can consider Peter's point of seeing Osensei's students as playing more of a primary role in what we commonly hold as an understanding of the word "inventor". I think many aspects of contemporary Aikido can be traced directly back to various uchideshi and doshu and not further. (This is not to say that they were not influenced by Osensei, but only to say that for historians, or for people interested in historical matters, the claim to have something attributed to someone prior to your presence - something you see a lot of - has to always been seen in a somewhat skeptical light.) Things that can be attributed to Osensei's various uchideshi - loosely off the top of my head - are: a systematized weapons curriculum, the current multi-tiered ranking system, the current testing requirements and/or established "basics", the point that weapons is not a needed part of Aikido training, the inclusion of mainstream Zen practice, the disappearance or downplay of kiai from training, the further development of ki theory/practice, the secularization of Aikido practice/training/space, a silence over the role of God in Aikido practice, the position that Aikido is not martial, etc. Of course not every reader here can or will agree with these things either being part or not part of Aikido training, but that precisely speaks to my point of Aikido styles. We can see, however, with a broad perspective, that such things do in fact exist within what we refer to as "modern" Aikido, and that none of these things can really be 100% directly attributed to Morihei Ueshiba - for whatever reason. Too note another discussant, who I think had a very close analogy, in the way that Jesus the Jew did not invent a new religion, his followers did, Osensei did not invent what we have come to know as Aikido (generally speaking), his followers did and still do. And as another discussant suggested that we can take away Osensei's uchideshi and still have (what is known today as) Aikido, but if we take away Osensei, we would not - Well, I would have to disagree, take away the uchideshi and doshu, and you would not have (what we know as) Aikido. Again, I agree with Peter on this point.

However, and this is what I am wondering about, may there still be a way in which we can attribute some level of invention or at least some level of "being the first one" to introduce one or more defining aspects of Aikido - a an aspect that is quite in fact both revolutionary and delineating - to the man Morihei Ueshiba? Two things that have always stood out in my mind through my own historical pursuits is the following: 1. The concept of Love in Osensei's Budo/Aikido; and 2. The concept of a universal creator-divinity (e.g. God). (I am not suggesting that Osensei did not have all those other aspects of Budo that Peter has so rightly noted as existing prior to Osensei. As with all things religious in Japan - one thing does not necessarily count out another. So, for example, a belief in the 10,000 kami of Japan in no way is affected by the belief in a universal creator-divinity. Osensei clearly had both beliefs.) But in my own research, which I admit only overlaps here and there with Aikido's history, these two concepts (at least in appearance) cannot really be traced to any martial artist prior to Osensei (Heck - one even has a hard time finding them today in current practitioners! Yikes!). It is obvious that such concepts came from, influentially speaking, Omoto-kyo with it's own doctrine being influence by Christianity and the World religious movement, but I am wondering if any other martial artist prior to Morihei Ueshiba so keenly linked them to Budo training? If not, then in this sense, it would seem to me to be quite plausible to speak of Morihei Ueshiba inventing something: the link between Budo, Love, and a universal creator-divinity and that this thing might in fact be called "Aikido".

kindest regards,
dmv

Jabril
05-20-2002, 07:31 AM
Originally posted by Dean H.
Nothing under the sun is new....right?
-Dean
:triangle: :circle: :square:


You are very correct in dating what we call Aiki-jujutsu back to the Egyptions. My research has also shown that this form of martial arts is also practiced by the Masai tribe in Africa. It seems that even the hakamas are even a representation of the African Loin Pants.

Dazzler
10-07-2004, 07:47 AM
Apologies if I repeat stuff from previous posts but reading them all is hard work!

Did Ueshiba invent Aikido? I think yes.

Did he invent the techniques? Everyone knows this to be no. No one claims otherwise.

I believe he recognized the essence of all budo as being governed by the Tao. Yin and yang are brought together to create ki. (positive and negative, heaven and earth whatever).

To me it seems a bit like splitting the atom only in reverse.

Pretty heavy stuff.

While other arts may have evolved a philosophy and some may be just techniques I feel this approach is what differentiates aikido from other arts although possibly some of the tai chi variants come close.

Some posters are saying that Aikido techniques are just Daito Ryu techniques or Sword techniques.

Well they may well be but whereas originally the focus was on creating a perfect form the goal of aikido is to use the technique as a tool to bring yin and yang together to create ki.

The recognition of this is Ueshibas creation.

Respectfully

D

mathewjgano
03-06-2005, 09:12 PM
Actually, I'd say that Kisshomaru Ueshiba, Gozo Shioda, Kenji Tomiki and Koichi Tohei are responsible for aikdio as we know it today. Ueshiba M. wasn't known for teaching things. Peter Boylan

I suppose that depends on your definition of "teaching." If these men learned from OSensei, then it's fair to call him a teacher, in my opinion.
...who's more responsible for getting the pop fly to home base? The center fielder who threw it to the short-stop? The Short-stop who threw it to the catcher? Or the catcher who's standing over the plate? Truth is, Aikido, as we know it today, is just as much the work of those who transmitted the lessons they learned as the one they learned it from. Their impressions were shaped by the man, who's impressions were shaped by other men, and so on down the line into pre-history.

Ibaraki Bryan
03-08-2005, 03:23 AM
Gotta say I'm surprised Mr. Boylan didn't include Morihiro Saito in his list of venerated Sensei. :)

George S. Ledyard
03-08-2005, 04:26 AM
Ya know, I always love reading these threads. Aikido history is interesting. However, when the same banter has been going on for over a month, and it starts becoming, well this happened in O sensei's dojo, no it didn't this happened, and Takeda said this , no he didn't,......I can't wanting to scream WHO CARES.......and repeat what many have before me.......shut up and train train train.

My opinion only, you are entitled to yours, however wrong you may be.

Peace, Kenn

Here in the United Staes we have the Constitution. A bunch of guys two hundred years ago wrote it. We have the thing in front of us, we've spent years and years studying it and interpreting it. One of the most important distinctions people make when they interpret the Constitution is "what was the intention of the framers" how would they intend their ideas to be applied to these modern stiuations we face. We put a huge weight on this because we respect the wisdom that the original founders of the country had in setting up this system of givernment. So two hundred years later we still care what they intended.

O-Sensei dies in 1969. There are still many people alive who trained directly with him. I think that specualtion combined with a lot of research is quite valuable in trying to understand this art which he created. Why? Because he was wise enough to create the art in the first place. Many of us care what he thought about it and what he intended for it. It matters to us what the individual contributions have been by the people who learned from the Founder and taken his art and made it their own. I hope this is still going on in a hundred years.

kironin
03-08-2005, 04:30 AM
Gotta say I'm surprised Mr. Boylan didn't include Morihiro Saito in his list of venerated Sensei. :)

perhaps because the ones he mentions were already leaders and teachers when Saito Sensei started aikido as a teenager.

their Saito's sempai
different generation.

jennifer paige smith
04-18-2007, 10:43 PM
Discuss the article, "Did Morihei Ueshiba Invent Aikido?" by Peter Boylan here.

Article URL: http://www.aikiweb.com/general/boylan1.html
Mr. Boylan, thank you.

Yes. He said, in essence, nothing is new. Nature is older than you, me, us. We need it to survive, we are its' product. The techniques of aikido bring us into accord with life, survival, and eternal essence. What was unique was Senseis' context of application. He left a lot of people behind when he stepped in the truth of his personal, universal realization. We are nature; we are one. So yeah, it isn't new. The tree came first? Or is it the seed? The study of meta-natural principles is the study of all living arts.
Let's all commit to listening and lose our precious opinions in the interest of true happiness.
There's so much to love and enjoy on this road. Let's also be sure to be respectful to all arts, all of us, all the time.
Thank You

Ross Groves
03-06-2008, 07:11 AM
Why are you all so caught up in 'who invented this and that' just worship in the fact that you are fit and healthy to practise Aikido.

Will Prusner
03-06-2008, 09:27 AM
Why are you all so caught up in 'who invented this and that' just worship in the fact that you are fit and healthy to practise Aikido.

Yep, that's pretty much what we've been doing since the thread ended... ALMOST A YEAR AGO!!!!!!! :)