Disarmament against non-traditional weapons? [Archive]

Robert Calton

08-23-2009, 06:52 AM

I can't really speak much from experience in either Aikido weapon's training, or having really ever be attacked by a bat/machete/chainsaw/etc., but I would imagine the techniques would be handled the same way as any other disarming or weapons-based techniques. Or, if the "non-traditional" weapon resembled something else (in the case of the bat<->jo comparison), similar principles would apply. Obviously, things like "plasma television" would be way out of the realm of fair weapon comparison, but I think that point's made.

The way someone would attack you with a bat or machete would be similar to other strikes that you've presumably learned already. So it seems that you just need to compensate for the extra distance and range of attack that the weapon brings to the equation.

There's something about every "non-traditional" weapon that shares a common element with a "traditional" one. I think the same could be said with unarmed, untrained v. trained attacks. I think maybe try to approach it as a...mmm....not-so-"untraditional" weapon, and that would naturally let your Aikido do its thing (for lack of a better phrase :p).

phitruong

08-23-2009, 06:59 AM

what if you got attack by folks who armed with fruits? :D

Kevin Leavitt

08-23-2009, 07:33 AM

The only way to really answer that question is to try it out. Make sure though that when you set up the scenarios that you use different assumptions about when/how the attacs occur. How much distance between the two, the amount of awareness of the person being attacked, position of the person attacked.

What if you are tieing your shoe and you are attacked?

What if you have enough distance to run? well do you? try it out!

How about clutter and furniture how much do they come into play.

What are the things that you are successful with and what things don't work...evaluate each scenario, retest and try again until you can replicate your "success" with different attackers etc.

Use shinai and/or foam weapons to start, maybe plastic bats...bokken...helmets and pro gear as well if you can get it.

No one IMO can really answer this question for you If you really care, this in the only way to really get a handle on how you will deal with these things in reality.

mickeygelum

08-23-2009, 11:05 AM

Could these be treated the same way as a Bokken/Jo/Knife disarmament?

Sir,

Your answer is in your question. Basic fundamentals of ma-ai, taisabaki, and kuzushi are applied. Concepts and body mechanics are basics, techniques emanate from proper implementation of the same.

Experiment, I once taught a class with a broom and it's application in realtime use. We use ActionFlex and improvised weapons in our training, as Mr. Leavitt already stated, and I wholeheartedly agree, get some and give it a go.

Train well,

Mickey

Voitokas

08-23-2009, 03:01 PM

We tried attacks with metal folding chairs a few times, and the techniques that worked against bokken generally worked against the chair attacks. We found that the more basic the technique, the more effective it was on non-traditional weapons. I seem to remember ikkyo and iriminage working best for us with the chairs.. It was fun, anyway, too.

ChrisHein

08-23-2009, 05:27 PM

You should look into:

Ikkyo, Nikyo, Sankyo, Yonkyo, Gokyo, and Rokyo Waza. Also Kotegaeshi, Shihonage, Jujinage, Kaiten nage, Kokyu Nage, Irimi nage, and in the appropriate situation Koshi nage.

Those waza all pertain to weapon disarms, as long as they are holding that weapon in their hand.

rob_liberti

08-23-2009, 08:31 PM

I have been very interested in the knife work taught by this guy:
http://fcskali.tripod.com/id9.html

My goal is to learn a lot more aiki and then practice Ray's knife stuff from that aiki-body perspective. I'm not sure I even ever considered dealing with disarming someone with a metal chair. Awesome idea. I'll be thinking about it. Thanks for the inspiring idea.

Rob

Suru

08-23-2009, 09:18 PM

Kawaguchi Sensei, Evans Sensei, and Page Sensei, my three primary instructors over my first three years of keiko, taught tanto and bokken takeaways. They did not teach these waza every class, but I feel they covered them sufficiently. That is, I have some confidence against a weapon now as opposed to none. As Kevin addressed briefly, I feel the absolute first thought should be, *Can I get out of here?* This mind's initial thought of evasion and its instantaneous assessment of this option, may contradict one of our most fundamental Aikido learned instincts of irimi.

Therefore I would like for Aikidoka to give some feedback on this idea of quick assessment of flight options versus immediate and full entering. I am super-curious to know how you all feel about this. I have more thoughts on it, but I will first see if some of you comment on this post.

Drew

Kevin Leavitt

08-23-2009, 10:19 PM

Drew, my feelings on evasion in knife is you probably are not going to get away by running or backing up. Unfortunately, if distance has been closed on you with a knife and the guy is intent on using it to kill you, well, it sucks and in most cases you have no choice but to turn and fight for your life, entering is the only option you have.

That said, the only way to really understand this or to find out what you "should do" is to put yourself in the scenarios and see what happens. I would not purport to tell anyone what they should do, as it is their life and they need to make up their own mind what they should do based on the situation.

My experiences tell me to enter and fight hard and try and overcome.

SeiserL

08-24-2009, 07:21 AM

CNYMike

08-24-2009, 08:34 AM

.... Attackers with baseball bats?machetes?Nightsticks?
Could these be treated the same way as a Bokken/Jo/Knife disarmament?or they could be taught seperatly somewhere in aikido?

Theoretically, yes, if you've completely mastered the art. In practice, I'd consider running, especially where the machete is concerned. If you can't run, pick up a chair or something and heave. I've been doing Kali for 12 years, but when I heard of a machete-weilding nut job on the Ithaca commons, I realized at the time I may have crapped in my pants! Don't be a hero.

Remember also that "no sword" techniques, which encompases disarms, were consiered the highest level of skill. If you're not there, you risk getting yourself killed. Just food for thought.

Demetrio Cereijo

08-24-2009, 09:11 AM

A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA 5-angles of a knife attack. We used a real knife. Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido had no problem.

Nov 2004 issue (http://books.google.es/books?id=hdsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA102&dq=black+belt+nov+2004&as_pt=MAGAZINES&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=black%20belt%20nov%202004&f=false), pgs 102-108

Lan Powers

08-24-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote.."Therefore I would like for Aikidoka to give some feedback on this idea of quick assessment of flight options versus immediate and full entering."

Measure the ma-ai in the first glance......(How close -leads to which response)

Run if you have room. Fight if you must, but entering is the heart of taking control of his attack.
Just as has been said earlier....
"Remember also that "no sword" techniques, which encompases disarms, were consiered the highest level of skill. If you're not there, you risk getting yourself killed. "
Truer words were never spoken

Lan

Suru

08-24-2009, 02:38 PM

the only way to really understand this or to find out what you "should do" is to put yourself in the scenarios and see what happens.

My experiences tell me to enter and fight hard and try and overcome.

I like your warrior attitude, Kevin, and that may quite well be the right decision. As far as the scenarios, many years ago I used to do that too much. Now, I think you mean putting yourself through conflict scenarios time and again. This may be perfectly healthy. At times, I found myself going through scenarios too much. Not only should I trust my training more than constant rehearsal as if I'm the choreographer in Seagal's movies, but if I'm *constantly* going through scenarios, I'm not enjoying life. That is like being attacked through imagination at all times. It was no way to live and I got over it. I still find myself thinking of initial moves in scenarios from time to time, but they don't encumber my life anymore. Thank you for the feedback.

Drew

08-24-2009, 02:54 PM

By non-traditional I am assuming you mean non-traditional for a Japanese (ken, jo, tanto).
A while back we did an article for Black Belt on Aikido against the FMA 5-angles of a knife attack. We used a real knife. Phong Sensei
of Tenshinkai Aikido had no problem.
I don't know if my Aikido would work as well, but his worked just fine.
As always, IMHO it the person that is effective, not the art.
Hello Lynn
It really means nothing to me that someone used a real knife and a teacher could deal with it. Give the knife to me, or half dozen men I personally know -and theoretically- the teacher wouldn't be here anymore. Weapons are not to be taken lightly. And they are almost 100% lethal in the hands of men who know how to use them.
Pardon me for using your post to illustrate what I believe to be a fundamental flaw that continues to re-occur here in these debates regarding weapons-to include the other recent thread as well. From here on out the “you” is only a general ‘you” –not you personally Lynn.
These conversations continue to progress based on the notion of using one's fellow dojo mates as the attackers in forming a base-line for their research. Using a dojo mate because they are faster or they can scare you or "cause they're big and strong" is not a qualification. So handing them a knife, sword, sticks, chair or what ever you may decide to experiment with “that day” in your dojo does not make them capable, or your research results meaningful in any way. It is rather unfortunate that aikido folks continue to feel compelled to put their research on display, whether it be video or magazine article, in a public arena that usually proves to be part of a more educated and prepared MA audience. The research that is proving to be typical of public weapons take-a-ways -does more damage than any possible good for the community. No one with any real chops will ever take you seriously.

At some point we need to stop repeating the mistakes that led to the dawning of the MMA phenomenon from within traditional arts. That is-limiting yourselves to testing things out in your own protected environment with buddies of questionable skill. Instead take ownership of more pressured testing. It’s the only way to arrive at a substantive work worthy of serious consideration. If you really want to see the veracity of your ideas- go find someone who really knows how to use various weapons and try it on them -on their turf. Then find someone who completely disagrees with –their- approach and try it on them too.

As martial artists at least we could have the self-awareness to stop posting videos and advertizing the blatantly obvious flaws in our approach and begging for critiques for weaknesses we should have been aware of before we even began. Check around first privately so as not to “represent.” It’s due diligence. If we want to be taken more seriously...we need to act accordingly, or be treated accordingly due to our often, rather cavalier approach to weapon work.

Kevin Writes:
I would not purport to tell anyone what they should do, as it is their life and they need to make up their own mind what they should do based on the situation.
Might I kindly suggest you would look at it differently if you were sending these people into action next week and they were trained under your watch? What if even one of them mistakenly thinks they were capable? Seeing this stuff and not saying anything when you know better is being part of the problem. It is far less painful to be made aware of these things in this venue than filling people with a false sense of confidence who -God forbid- may one day be in a bad place and think they have what it takes to make it home that night.
Cheers
Dan

P.S. Not that I care much about stools and chairs but with any large object; lead him so he swings and misses. When he is trying to stop its momentum and redirect...enter.

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 02:59 PM

I like your warrior attitude, Kevin, and that may quite well be the right decision. As far as the scenarios, many years ago I used to do that too much. Now, I think you mean putting yourself through conflict scenarios time and again. This may be perfectly healthy. At times, I found myself going through scenarios too much. Not only should I trust my training more than constant rehearsal as if I'm the choreographer in Seagal's movies, but if I'm *constantly* going through scenarios, I'm not enjoying life. That is like being attacked through imagination at all times. It was no way to live and I got over it. I still find myself thinking of initial moves in scenarios from time to time, but they don't encumber my life anymore. Thank you for the feedback.

Drew

yea, you can't train like this all the time. Also, done right, there is a heck of a chance for injury as well so you really want to make sure they are done right, realistically, and safely. Still emotions run high and if you train like this all the time I think it is not good.

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 03:11 PM

Dan Harden wrote:

Might I kindly suggest you would look at it differently if you were sending these people into action next week and they were trained under your watch? What if even one of them mistakenly thinks they were capable? Seeing this stuff and not saying anything when you know better is being part of the problem. It is far less painful to be made aware of these things in this venue than filling people with a false sense of confidence who -God forbid- may one day be in a bad place and think they have what it takes to make it home that night.

Dan, my comments were for civilians, but even at that, I don't tell military folks what to do. They need to experience it for themselves and determine what they should do. I believe in setting the appropriate conditions for training, teaching them how to handle weapons, show them how to employ them, then work through drills.

Spent last two weeks working with SOF guys and trainers on knife work on some TTPs and lessons learned from downrange.

Not to disparage anyone here as it is not my intent. Personally I don't care to play "filipino patty cake" with knives. There I said it...are you happy?

In fact I can't really find any footage on youtube that I consider to be the proper execution of use of a knife. Most folks seem to be really concerned with knife dueling and complicated trapping etc..which is fine and all that, but not what I like to do.

Do I know everything about knife fighitng? Absolutely not...I know what I have been trained to do, what I have used in scenario training and have listened to alot of soldiers that have employed them.

In civilian life I don't really like to deal with knives because of the whole force continum issues. Personally, if I pull a knife it is like pulling a gun, it becomes a lethal weapon that I intend to use at it's maximum capability. I'll deal with the consequences in court later.

My personal issues in dealing with knifes (as I discovered last week) is that I have developed some grappler affects that I need to correct such as duck under to the rear which really is not a good thing to do with a knife.

I am constantly getting reminded lately how much our training habits carry over into reality.

Thanks Dan

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 03:16 PM

Dan, another thing I do at the end of my week long combatives class is to suit up guys in their kit and then put them through various scenarios and let them work out their weapon employment strategies. i.e how their M4 sling affects things, using their backup side arm and employing their knives.

As I never have enough time to train soldiers for what they need to learn, I hope to at least leave them with the mindset that they need to work through this stuff and develop habits and instincts on where to carry their weapons and when you abandon them and pick up the next one.

Learned along time ago you can't tell anyone anything, you have to lead them down the path to show them what is f-d up about it and let them work through fixing it and discovery themselves. This is the only way they can learn and internalize. I can only serve as a guide and set the conditions for them to learn.

Hope this better explains the words I chose above.

08-24-2009, 03:39 PM

Dan Harden wrote:
Dan, my comments were for civilians, but even at that, I don't tell military folks what to do. They need to experience it for themselves and determine what they should do. I believe in setting the appropriate conditions for training, teaching them how to handle weapons, show them how to employ them, then work through drills.

Not to disparage anyone here as it is not my intent. Personally I don't care to play "filipino patty cake" with knives. There I said it...are you happy?
Actually yes;) I deleted a whole section in my post in response to Rob about his guy's vids. I am no fan.
With other people though it is exactlt that-setting parameters that are more realistic and viable that can at least open their eyes to bettter, higher percentage techniques and movement.

In fact I can't really find any footage on youtube that I consider to be the proper execution of use of a knife. Most folks seem to be really concerned with knife dueling and complicated trapping etc..which is fine and all that, but not what I like to do.
Ditto. In fact in direct response to Rob's vid posting I was going to post this:
_________________________
If this is the guy you were telling me about then please invite me to your next gathering. This is not the way to fly in my opinion-not even within flow drills. But, you know me- I'd rather "do" and then "talk" about it after…it tends to unblock peoples ears. In the mean time, lets do some weapons-work this week, you can start with Mat, Andy, DJ. , anyone.
Even assuming he is just showing attack forms with a knife against an unarmed assailant he is risking too much and in fact "doing too much" for little additional gain when he could get the job done with less risk. You need to know that approach is well known and has been learned, dealt with and modified as early as the 70's and 80's with some professionals who looked at it with other Indonesian/ Philippino teachers- way back then. Remember the Colonel -me and Tom were discussing that I had told you about - this is just the sort of thing we were....uhm...discussing that night.
Reverse grip in a short weapon makes more sense in some older indigenous fields of combatives where last minute disarmament or weapon damage could occur at speed and you were already engaged and needed to close the distance against a longer weapon. It is NOT a first choice in weapon work where timing and distance is your friend - particularly if you have the only weapon. Why waste the tme and effort. Tactically, there was a whole lot of unnecessary flash as well which reminded me more of Hollywood than combatives. FWIW, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of guys who already looked at this stuff, some in context with a broader field of knowledge for a professional approach. What I am addressing here-is not even remotely “newsworthy!”
In short this IS the "old news" you have heard me talk about for a few years now.
Last, in going to his web page and seeing “The World Sokeship council Award”- I was surprised. If you know him and like him, you might want to tip him off as to what that says to a more educated audience-if that is who he is pursuing.

_________________________________

Do I know everything about knife fighitng? Absolutely not...I know what I have been trained to do, what I have used in scenario training and have listened to alot of soldiers that have employed them.
Same here. Other than being stabbed and sliced twice and playing with some serious guys from your world - I have yet to meet the guy who gave a shite enough about them to ever call himself "an expert." But I haven't met too many martial artists who are worth shite with one in their hands either.
Personally, I think they are way "overplayed" and yet also poorly trained.

My personal issues in dealing with knives (as I discovered last week) is that I have developed some grappler affects that I need to correct such as duck under to the rear which really is not a good thing to do with a knife. I am constantly getting reminded lately how much our training habits carry over into reality.
Thanks Dan

I'm all about distance, timing, positioning and placement. You can usually get the job done with less exposure and risk. As I am sure you know- its not an all or nothing proposition. There's work that is debilitating before you need to move in.
Cheers
Dan

08-24-2009, 03:42 PM

Marc Abrams

08-24-2009, 03:51 PM

I do not have the martial arts ability of Dan, or the military experience of Kevin. I do know that an edged weapon commonly ends up being the lethal weapon. Dan is correct is asking people to step outside of the their "comfort zones."

Simply take a practice knife and chalk up the blade area with a colored chalk and go to town practicing what you think might work. People would be amazed to find out how badly they have been wounded in their "testing play." Simply looking at the type of wound does not in itself, do it justice. Many times, the person does not feel the cut of a sharp blade, but the shock to their system quickly (blood loss, nerve trauma, etc.) deprives them of the resources needed to continue on in a fight. Of course, this does not even touch the subject of adrenalin dumping, which can take a trained person and render then helpless in no time flat, unless they have some good training and experience under their belt in controlling high stress situations.

A good knife fighter does not keep the blade out in front of them, but the knife-holding hand is frequently behind the lead hand and the knife holding hand is typically used for both striking and cutting. With that type of fighter, you quickly realize the severity of situation when you are confronted by an edged weapon.

Victorious fighting almost always has to do with the effective use of inequity of force. In that case, if the person has a knife, you should have a gun, machete,....... Facing somebody with a knife without any comparable or superior weapon is like being a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. Kevin's point is well taken in that he has a preferred way of addressing that situation and hopefully surviving. If you cannot effectively escape, then may the God of War be on your side and give it all that you got, because your life is truly on the line.

Unless you are a soldier going into a combat theater or some other leo who has to face lesser, yet still lethal situations, then the training that you do is typically the training that you do (as opposed to expecting what you train in to be used in the near future). Most people never get into a real fight. There has been an increasing trend in the use of lethal weapons in fights and assaults, but stat.'s still show that most occur without their being an edged weapon or firearm.

It is good to play with scenarios while maintaining a realistic perspective on what you are doing. Almost without fail, it instills a greater sense of mortality, rather than immortality. This notion that hand-to-hand training can effectively deal with weapon situations is stretching a scenario to a point where we can engage in a mutual delusion of a superior skill set that can quickly get a person into a world of hurt.

Marc Abrams

SeiserL

08-24-2009, 05:11 PM

From here on out the "you" is only a general ‘you" --not you personally Lynn.
No problem. You don't know me or my background. I learned a long time ago not to take people, including myself, too seriously or too personally. I have many of the same criticism of the traditional way of working a blade. I look forward to the day we can share space and time.

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 06:05 PM

Marc wrote:

Many times, the person does not feel the cut of a sharp blade, but the shock to their system quickly (blood loss, nerve trauma, etc.) deprives them of the resources needed to continue on in a fight. Of course, this does not even touch the subject of adrenalin dumping, which can take a trained person and render then helpless in no time flat, unless they have some good training and experience under their belt in controlling high stress situations.

Yes, yes, yes! That is what we were talking about last week. In fact, I was watching an MSNBC report of a lady that was robbed and stabbed repeatedly. You see her continuing to fend off the attacker in the vid. She states "I didn't even know I was stabbed, I thought he was hitting me!".

If you are using a knife you have to account for this issue, this is why I believe you have to take out major muscle groups in the arms and legs. Eyes and face do cause a flinch response which is good to buy you some time for the next cut, but kidney stabs, slashes to the forearms and torso do not generate the response that you really want in a knife situation.

Man I don't like talking about this stuff, it is gruesome!

Anyway, you bring up the very issue I have with alot of the stuff you see out there for "knife dueling" Marc.

You also have to account for jackets, armor etc when dealing with the torso and any wounds there will not drop them immediately which is what you want.

Gettting to the outside and back is best I think, which is what I watch for in the you tube videos. Some of the "Spetnaz" vids out there do get to the back, but the vids I saw were too indirect and still did not deal with things the way I think are appropriate to render a guy "down".

Cutting the quads in the front, then cutting the hamstrings in the rear and up through the crotch into the femoral area tend to get the response you want regardless of their ability to recognize the attack in response to adrenal dump etc. They physically cannot fight back once their legs have been taken out.

It is also good, as most of us know from irimi nage to get to the back when dealing with multiple opponents.

Not fun stuff to talk about, but since you guys seem to want to discuss it....

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 06:27 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY2T5DIxLYg

Here is some footage. Couple of things I think that are important.

1. Security Guard does what most untrained folks do, he splays hands and trys to keep distance. As you can see, he gets stabbed over and over.

2. That said, look at the amount of force that is used on the attacker that doesn't really phase him a whole lot.

3. Note that both the Security guard and the attacker walked away with the capacity to fight.

Just observations to make concerning knifes in fights.

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 06:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MRh580exNo

situationally dependent, but what is interesting is that the store clerk closes distance and continues to press the fight to the robber.

Again, it is situational, but I do find it interesting that the store keeper pressed the fight and it made a difference.

What is important I think is establishing dominance and keeping it. Think OODA.

I was kinda busting on Filipino knife fighting earlier. Sorry, bout that, but one thing they do well is teach the principles of OODA and they are wonderful at staying ahead of the loop. Fricking incredible if you ask me. This is important.

What I don't like is from a purely practical standpoint which how they fight, I simply don't subscribe to for my environment/situations.

Marc Abrams

08-24-2009, 08:13 PM

Kevin:

I think that it is important to point out that both of those video clips show perp.'s who are not trained knife fighters. A trained knife fighter would have done things differently. Part of that reality is good for the "good guys" but need to be pointed out. The best part of good training should be trying to learn how to work against a really well-trained attack, rather than fending off those who in the long run, typically fail the "Darwin Test."

Regards,

Marc

ps.- if you find yourself in the area in Oct., my offer still stands!

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 08:21 PM

agree Marc. Thanks for the offer. I have on last "school" that is tentativeI have to go to down in Norfolk in October, so not sure if I can make it yet.

rob_liberti

08-24-2009, 08:55 PM

Kevin Leavitt

08-24-2009, 08:57 PM

Rob, I think if you apply what you know about internal skills and aikido with a knife you will be on the right track with a little tactics.

Marc Abrams

08-25-2009, 07:15 AM

Don't worry about disparaging me. If I'm on the wrong track, then please continue to speak up.

I suppose I was just looking for someone who could handle a knife attack in a way that was not the "big over the head" shomen, big looping yokomen, or step in straight thrust.

I cannot yet move that fast with intent - heck I can barely move slowly with intent! My goal is to be able to move with intent that fast or faster.

If my strategy is flawed, I'm all for learning. I suppose I just was commenting about how far my mental process had gone regarding non-symbolic attacks and that I never consider non-traditional weapons.

Thanks,
Rob

Rob:

I re-read this thread and could not find anyone seeking to disparage you. Arts from Indonesia, the Philippines and other related island arts, along with Systema have some pretty awesome knife fighting stuff. Kevin has an obvious preference for the more definitive knife stuff than the more refined (I call it "carving the turkey") knife work such as in Kali, based upon his experiences.

In My Opinion: The handling a good knife person without a weapon is akin to the Holy Grail. Sounds Great, Would Love To Have It, But Come On Folks.... Who in their right mind would like to face a knife fighter without a weapon of equal or greater level of lethality? Practicing for that is fun, reality is a situation I would never like to face in my lifetime (which would likely be shortened, or marred by serious injury).

Regards,

Marc Abrams

ps.- thanks for all of the help at Dan's seminar

jss

08-25-2009, 07:57 AM

Who in their right mind would like to face a knife fighter without a weapon of equal or greater level of lethality?
But we're martial artists, so our hands are deadly weapons! And since there's only one kind of lethalality, the one that kills ya... ;)

Kevin Leavitt

08-25-2009, 07:59 AM

Marc wrote:

I re-read this thread and could not find anyone seeking to disparage you. Arts from Indonesia, the Philippines and other related island arts, along with Systema have some pretty awesome knife fighting stuff. Kevin has an obvious preference for the more definitive knife stuff than the more refined (I call it "carving the turkey") knife work such as in Kali, based upon his experiences.

Training Methodology is interesting to observe. What I mean is that if you focus on "effective endstates to various scenarios", and stay true to that focus, what you end up with is a pretty basic conclusion about parity, fighting, and the utilization of weapons, and the variables that come into play.

The fighting, while skill is involved, is pretty basic, and you focus on basically getting ahead of the OODA loop. Being agressive, decisvie, in shape, lucky, having some basic skills...all make up the package of a successful fighter.

When this gets reversed engineered into something that we want to turn into an art or practice to study over and over, day after day...well that is where all the other stuff starts getting added into the practice.

It goes something like this. "Well what do we need to isolate knife skills?" well this slash, this cut, this parry". then a kata gets developed so we have something to practice every day.

How about body skills? Well "This" is important...Oh, yeah so is "THAT". so then we start developing a kata based on that.

Before you know it, you've developed a whole "system" for training each skill in isolation of the other....all good stuff, but what do you have now?

Nothing that resembles what actually needs to happen in a fight. The reverse engineering unfortunately does not always equate back into synthesis, and because of the nature of edged weapons being dangerous...it is hard to grasp the reality of the application!

Besides if you tried to package and sell yourself as a guru or sensei of a particular "Style" etc...it gets old and hard to do this any other way if you don't have a robust and comprehensive system that allows you to progress and measure folks.

Then you also get into the whole warrior culture and heritage issues that surround this stuff. Tribal warrior cultures are important and need to be considered.

Again, nothing wrong with any of this, cept when you are no shit looking at what you really need to know on the street or in tactical use.

Unfortunately, all of us are subject to dissonance, concepts, ideas, notions etc of what fighting "should" be, or what we WANT it to be, and we all want to imagine ourselves successful or if not successful, that in someway we can train to mitigate those risk through superior training of technical skills.

Couple that all together and I think you end up with what we see out there in the martial arts community being practiced.

In reality, most of us would be better at learning how to project ourselves as a wolf and not a sheep.

Or if we are really concerned about knife attacks, then why don't we do something like wear some modern day chain mail armor or kevlar shirt? Wouldn't that be money better spent and probably do a better job at preventing slash wounds in an attack? I think so, but no, we will put that tactical folder in our pocket and "hope" that we never have to use it, but if we do, "hope" that our training is "good enough". I find the whole thing kinda interesting how we would probably think it silly to walk around in a chain mail jersey, but still spend $1000 of dollars on "knife" training for self defense, yet that does not seem silly when you look at it from a basic logic argument?

Not sure if my point is clear, but when you strip away the emotional issues from the reality, to me, it seems we as humans do alot of stuff to placate our irrational fears with irrational means, when there are many more common sense ways to approach and mitgate the problem.

In My Opinion: The handling a good knife person without a weapon is akin to the Holy Grail. Sounds Great, Would Love To Have It, But Come On Folks.... Who in their right mind would like to face a knife fighter without a weapon of equal or greater level of lethality?

Yea Marc, I agree, with the above. We as humans are not as rational or possess the common sense that we like to think we have...myself included!

Hope this makes sense...just rattling it off at work partly distracted.

Marc Abrams

08-25-2009, 08:51 AM

Marc wrote:

Training Methodology is interesting to observe. What I mean is that if you focus on "effective endstates to various scenarios", and stay true to that focus, what you end up with is a pretty basic conclusion about parity, fighting, and the utilization of weapons, and the variables that come into play.

The fighting, while skill is involved, is pretty basic, and you focus on basically getting ahead of the OODA loop. Being agressive, decisvie, in shape, lucky, having some basic skills...all make up the package of a successful fighter.

When this gets reversed engineered into something that we want to turn into an art or practice to study over and over, day after day...well that is where all the other stuff starts getting added into the practice.

It goes something like this. "Well what do we need to isolate knife skills?" well this slash, this cut, this parry". then a kata gets developed so we have something to practice every day.

How about body skills? Well "This" is important...Oh, yeah so is "THAT". so then we start developing a kata based on that.

Before you know it, you've developed a whole "system" for training each skill in isolation of the other....all good stuff, but what do you have now?

Nothing that resembles what actually needs to happen in a fight. The reverse engineering unfortunately does not always equate back into synthesis, and because of the nature of edged weapons being dangerous...it is hard to grasp the reality of the application!

Besides if you tried to package and sell yourself as a guru or sensei of a particular "Style" etc...it gets old and hard to do this any other way if you don't have a robust and comprehensive system that allows you to progress and measure folks.

Then you also get into the whole warrior culture and heritage issues that surround this stuff. Tribal warrior cultures are important and need to be considered.

Again, nothing wrong with any of this, cept when you are no shit looking at what you really need to know on the street or in tactical use.

Unfortunately, all of us are subject to dissonance, concepts, ideas, notions etc of what fighting "should" be, or what we WANT it to be, and we all want to imagine ourselves successful or if not successful, that in someway we can train to mitigate those risk through superior training of technical skills.

Couple that all together and I think you end up with what we see out there in the martial arts community being practiced.

In reality, most of us would be better at learning how to project ourselves as a wolf and not a sheep.

Or if we are really concerned about knife attacks, then why don't we do something like wear some modern day chain mail armor or kevlar shirt? Wouldn't that be money better spent and probably do a better job at preventing slash wounds in an attack? I think so, but no, we will put that tactical folder in our pocket and "hope" that we never have to use it, but if we do, "hope" that our training is "good enough". I find the whole thing kinda interesting how we would probably think it silly to walk around in a chain mail jersey, but still spend $1000 of dollars on "knife" training for self defense, yet that does not seem silly when you look at it from a basic logic argument?

Not sure if my point is clear, but when you strip away the emotional issues from the reality, to me, it seems we as humans do alot of stuff to placate our irrational fears with irrational means, when there are many more common sense ways to approach and mitgate the problem.

Yea Marc, I agree, with the above. We as humans are not as rational or possess the common sense that we like to think we have...myself included!

Hope this makes sense...just rattling it off at work partly distracted.

Kevin:

You and I are totally in sync. That is why people call that whole arena "Marital ARTS." In absence of the Darwinian aspects of fighting schools existing (or ceasing to exist) in times of active conflicts, people have a lot of time on their hands and the reverse engineering in the pursuit of a higher "art form" typically takes place. It never ceases to amaze me how stunned "martial artists" are when they believe that they are "warriors" and end-up finding out what utter fools they really are at the end of instigating something with a good street fighter and getting their asses whooped something fierce.

I think that one of the great philosophical lessons of Aikido is that the fortress wall that you build to keep people out, also lock you in. We are far better off connecting with people in a positive and accepting manner, rather than defend against our irrational and ignorant thoughts. I look at it as being secure enough with who I am so as to reach out and try and build bridges of understanding with those around me.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

Kevin Leavitt

08-25-2009, 08:59 AM

Well said Marc. I wish I were that succinct with words!

08-25-2009, 09:41 AM

Kevin:
... people have a lot of time on their hands and the reverse engineering in the pursuit of a higher "art form" typically takes place. It never ceases to amaze me how stunned "martial artists" are when they believe that they are "warriors" and end-up finding out what utter fools they really are at the end of instigating something with a good street fighter and getting their asses whooped something fierce.

I think that one of the great philosophical lessons of Aikido is that the fortress wall that you build to keep people out, also lock you in. We are far better off connecting with people in a positive and accepting manner, rather than defend against our irrational and ignorant thoughts. I look at it as being secure enough with who I am so as to reach out and try and build bridges of understanding with those around me.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Good points all around.
It's a self-made and reinforced behavior though, mostly based on fear not just lack of information. The tacit underlying agreement remains:
a) that the information offered is of a physical contact and dominance method
b) in the end it was not tested-by choice.
And while it plagues the martial arts it doesn't plague all martial "artists."
The opposite condition exists as well; men who started out fighting and grappling and later went into the "arts" and learned some interesting things about movement.

As a state of mind-there is a fix for the artist who wants to be a fighter (not all do) -go fight. In lue of that, as least get out and meet people who know how to fight and how to do arts well. They're certainly out there to find and train with. They can at least steer you away from M.A.B.S. (martial art bull__t) contained within many arts and also keep you focused on the many viable things to be found within every art.
It's not reverse engineering, it's a reduction of negatives toward a more viable conclusion-were you so inclined.

Rob
Those were my comments, but not about you but about some of the approaches in the Indonesian fighting arts and the people I have met who practice that stuff, V the more direct methods to getting the job done.
Too many people "sword fight" and "knife fight" in their minds-eye and it is displayed in all that they do instead of just putting a man down with the least risk possible. There are also other methods-not from arts-but from the wrong side of the tracks, that were oddly echoed and consistent with my later dealings with certain military folks.
The more things change, the more....
Cheers
Dan

Abasan

08-25-2009, 10:07 AM

My only take on this is if you're fighting a good knife fighter unarmed, then try to get a weapon ASAP. magazine, book, belt, keys... will even the odds. Assuming you know knife fighting.

The next bet is try to minimise the injury so that no arteries and ligaments are cut. But you will get cut.

Silat, Escrima and the ilk don't use weapons like the japanese think people do. So... I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree, but I'm going to say it anyway. Aikido techniques will get you killed. Aikido principles though... that's a different matter.

Closing the distance is not something I would do. With the sword yes but not against a knife.

However, since we're talking about weapons here... I wonder if anyone's done anything against chains, whips and the like. I like to see someone do it unarmed. :P

Kevin Leavitt

08-25-2009, 11:21 AM

Hey Ahmad!

My opinion is that it is not quite this simple. I don't think you can reverse engineer the process into technical phases of a fight per se.

I hate to keep preaching the OODA mantra, but...

What you do depends on many variables obviously. Who has what weapon, availability of weapons, strength, size, conditioning etc.

However, if we are going to model the fight, I think it is best to use OODA.

i.e if he has the jump on you and you are behind in the loop, does it really matter if you have access to a weapon or not? You could have a gun in hand and it would be completely useless. or lets say you do shoot him, if he had the jump on you and he cut you up, do you really care if you killed him if you are mortally wounded?

So, what is more important? getting to the weapon or getting ahead of the loop and owning the iniative? What is the more valuable skill/tool to have?

Doesn't really matter what the weapon is, it is an extension of his body. Of course, some weapons do more damage than others and have different ranges, but the fact remains, if he is ahead of your OODA loop doesn't really matter what weapon he has, he is going to beat you with it and kill you if you can't get ahead of his loop.

So, I think in deciding what to do we need to develop our scenarios/problem sets to work on solving this vital issue of the fight first.

The next bet is try to minimise the injury so that no arteries and ligaments are cut. But you will get cut.

How about if you started off with this first? It goes back to what I was saying earlier. There are some very good aramid/kevlar clothing out there (anti-slash) that are actually very stylish. So, if I mitigated slashes and damage from them and now I only have to worry about stabs, how does this improve my odds to kick the loop over in my favor?

I would submit that $200.00 worth of anti-slash underwear would improve your chances to beat the odds of the fight over you owning a knife and deploying it. Remember, it ain't necessarily the damage you do to him, it is the damage that is NOT done to you that may matter in the long run.

Running from a knife, but not from a sword? Well again, I wouldn't make an axiom for either. I think it depends. Again, if you are behind in the OODA process..your goal is to get ahead. Running may solve it for you, it may not. Lots of factors to consider. I have found that if I am truely behind, that running has already been taken away from me and at some point I have to turn and deal with the situation. Again, to me weapon is immaterial when looking at it from this perspective.

A different way of thinking for sure than most folks are used to doing, but I think gets more to the core of what is the real issue of fighting.

As far as other weapons, I like to do Pugil Stick training. Cept I do it differently than most in the military. The Pugil paradigm is to have two fighters suit up with the helmets and sticks. Most fighters will immediately stalk each other out and jab from the outside and attempt to overpower and thus get ahead of the loop. That certainly is a paradigm and 99.9%, no 100% of the time everyone fights from what they consider to be the rules.

I get up and they say GO. I chuck my stick at the guy, walk up grab his stick, clinch him, drop him to the ground, take it away from him and beat him with his own stick. i.e. I close the loop very quickly before he has time to process it. Works everytime.

Every time I get accused of cheating! yea.....cheating. LOL!

After that, I never seem to have a problem with my students fighting with pugil sticks, but they do get in trouble with the other instructors cause it is not playing by the rules! Oh well!

Marc Abrams

08-25-2009, 11:58 AM

Good points all around.
It's a self-made and reinforced behavior though, mostly based on fear not just lack of information. The tacit underlying agreement remains:
a) that the information offered is of a physical contact and dominance method
b) in the end it was not tested-by choice.
And while it plagues the martial arts it doesn't plague all martial "artists."
The opposite condition exists as well; men who started out fighting and grappling and later went into the "arts" and learned some interesting things about movement.

As a state of mind-there is a fix for the artist who wants to be a fighter (not all do) -go fight. In lue of that, as least get out and meet people who know how to fight and how to do arts well. They're certainly out there to find and train with. They can at least steer you away from M.A.B.S. (martial art bull__t) contained within many arts and also keep you focused on the many viable things to be found within every art.
It's not reverse engineering, it's a reduction of negatives toward a more viable conclusion-were you so inclined.

The more things change, the more....
Cheers
Dan

Dan:

Points well taken. I would submit to you that the worst of the people do not do so out of fear, but out of blissful ignorance of a reality that is truly life and death.

As to your overall point, I typically refer back to statistics ( Courses that I HATED!!!!), specifically, the bell-shaped curve. The vast majority of the people out there fit into the mediocrity and poor categories. The excellence that you speak of has been and will always remain a rarity. Statistics do not lie, only the people using them do ;) ! The wise person is lucky enough to successfully hunt down and get to train with the superior teachers. At one of the Boulder Summer Camps, Ushiro Sensei stated that it was better to spend three years looking for an excellent teacher, rather than spend three years training with a mediocre teacher.

Look forward to learning again from you soon!

Marc Abrams

ChrisHein

08-25-2009, 05:37 PM

Abasan

08-25-2009, 08:41 PM

Kevin,

thanks for the feedback. Actually what I posted there in my less than vivid moment (it was way past my bedtime :P) was just a mini version of what could play out.

Obviously I'm not disparaging a swordsman here over a knife fighter. I only know aikiken and have never taken up iai or kenjutsu. I do know knife fighting better from Silat.

In either case I won't want to mix with them bare handed. Our disarming kata may show you what is required of you, but when I'm of a mind to cut you most of all uke's will get cut. Even senseis... for that matter. That's from my paltry experience anyway.

Thing is the kata shows fighters coming in with single strikes and only with the armed hand. Fighters don't fight that way. Um I don't anyway. We don't lunge either. Its not 1 strike 1 kill. We're not dueling. In my mindset, I'm carving your defences. This means I start with your limbs and potentially the arteries that come with it. I work my way to critical areas as they open up. All this time I will hit, kick and trap your hands with my other limbs. And I don't attack first if I can help it.

In any case, lets agree to say there's no way around it and I have to face the attacker regardless. OODA is valid but like you said it can be invalidated if he has the loop on you. I prefer to think of encounters like this in terms of 'Blink'. Seriously, go read the book.

What I meant by equalising the terrain is by arming yourself against a knife fighter is when you have to ability to do so. Obviously him getting the jump at you, leaves you in a position of having to respond based on your current state of being. Say a superficial cut on the arm or a gut stab. In each state you're likely to survive the onslaught provided you get treatment later.

At this point the fighter has the advantage with the weapon and your injury. You're at this point in time still deliberating fight or flight. The attacker knows this and has a response for each. He also has tactical advantage because he chose the terrain.

The one thing we have to do now is to Accept death. Accept injuries are forthcoming. Accept the knife. Once we are willing to do that, we are in a better situation. We are no longer stalling and trying to avoid being cut. We are no longer trying to perform a demo or a movie scene when the hero leaves unscathed. We have now accepted that we are willing to die to survive this fight. (as opposed to oh crap I'm going to die, I'm going to beat this guy and if I do so be it). Actually I love Systema's knife training and Silat. Because in each they progress to actual use of and edged blade. Nothing beats acceptance by using the thing itself.

Then the rules have changed and the loop is broken. You may now engaged the fighter. You still should even the odds though but at least now, you've taken some of the advantage away from the other guy. And best of all, he might not even know he has lost the advantage.

Funnily enough I wanted to mention the kevlar gloves last night too. And i know some parents are equipping their children with underwear due to the school slashings. I guess it would be cool to wear those things all the time.

I love the pugil sticks exercise you guys do. It beats being battered with the real ones and you can really belt it out. Only sometimes I see strikes hit which are potentially a fightstopper and the receiver just continues fighting. That's...um weird.

I don't know. This is just my take on things anyway. At this point in time. I just hope that its useful to someone at least. I wouldn't say its true for everyone.

TEARO

08-26-2009, 12:14 PM

Theoretically, yes, if you've completely mastered the art. In practice, I'd consider running, especially where the machete is concerned. If you can't run, pick up a chair or something and heave. I've been doing Kali for 12 years, but when I heard of a machete-weilding nut job on the Ithaca commons, I realized at the time I may have crapped in my pants! Don't be a hero.

Remember also that "no sword" techniques, which encompases disarms, were consiered the highest level of skill. If you're not there, you risk getting yourself killed. Just food for thought.

Don't worry,I haven't been practicing aikido long enough to even think of using it in a real fight.

I actually don't even get in fights,I'm a peacefull person. Really :P.

But I'm just asking this question because sometimes I practice with other aikidokas outside the dojo and we always try to mix up our training as much as possible.

By the way.Great idea for the folding chairs :P I'm gonna try that.

Kevin Leavitt

08-26-2009, 01:23 PM

No real issues Ahmad...just presenting a different way of assessing fighting paradigms and evaluating training scenarios.

Weapons of course do affect the fight. Obviously if you have a sword and I don't and we have 10 Meters between us, the advantage is in your favor and it will be very difficult for me to "get ahead" of your loop. VERY DIIFFICULT!

However, if I have a gun, then who is the loop in favor of?

If we both have swords? or we both have tanto?

So yes, weapons affect the situation dramatically and it may be that I cannot get ahead of your loop in which case I lose!

I like some of the vids that Dave Valedez (sic) did about a year ago showing closing distance for police emphazing the "rule of 20" Dave used a spiral movement to reduce the OODA loop allowing the police officer the ability to thwart the bad guys attack.

My point is, even though the police officer had a handgun, the bad buy can close the distance faster than he can draw it, therefore, the weapon is immaterial until the OODA loop is reduced.

By ignoring this process and focusing on drawing the weapon faster or trying to predict/time when the opponent does not solve the problem for the officers, however, when you focus on solving it from a OODA perspective and not a technique or weapons based perspective, it opens up your ability to see the problem in a different set of terms, which expands our options for other solutions sets.

I think this is what is most important about understanding OODA.

The problem set does not change. That is, you have 10 meters of distance, a bad guy with a knife and a policeman with a holstered (or non-holstered gun)....but your perspective of the situation changes when you break the problem down in a different way.

Again, no issues with what you are presenting at all!

Russell Davis

08-26-2009, 06:05 PM

some really interesting stuff, as for cuts to the arms they may not shock but they do effect an opponents ability to strike or grab
back of hand, fleshy part of thumb, outer forearm, bicep, tricep
bonus points for the radial or brachial artery. breakdown the defence to open up his vital areas.
there is also the psychological value

Kevin Leavitt

08-26-2009, 07:14 PM

No issues there Russell, as of course you are correct.

From a "Knife Fighting" aspect though, hands and arms move around alot and don't really offer much in the way of good concrete targets. You are also talking about 10ths of seconds of gaining positive effects, so it all comes down to the law of averages.

From my perspective, rule one is to gain the upper hand in the fight. Kuzushi is paramount. You knife can be a good thing to acheive kuzushi. Now in achieving Kuzushi, my target is typically the eyes as it generates the response that I want which is for the opponent to bend backwards. His hands will come up to protect, and of course they are in the slash area so arms and hands will get slashed but that is not my intent. Going low to the front of the legs attacks the major muscles that he stands on.

Now I think this is where good internal training comes into play as if you use the knife correctly you actually "enter" his core, not slash at the surface. (Also requires a decent knife).

Moving to the rear ala, Iriminage allows you to achieve back dominance, which is golden. so you know have Kuzsushi AND you are in a better position to deal with multiple opponents.

From this position you can finish by slashing the lower legs across the back, again, using internal skillz, which will drop him whether he wants to or not as it is simple physics that he has no muscles to stand on or keep a base.

This can all happen within a few seconds done correctly.

The reason I wouldn't target the radial or brachial arteries is that the arms move and it simply is not a good target and they can also be protected well with jackets etc. IMO, there are more effective targets to concentrate on.

To be honest, this is really no different IMO than a norma iriminage, which is good as it keeps things very simple...we only have to learn on set of patterns for movement that are adaptable both for empty hands and edged weapons. The knife doesn't dictate or change the tactics, it simply enhances the situation.

That is why I am always intrigued when all of a sudden you put a knife in some folks hands and they forget what they learn in aikido and want to stand in front, carve, trap, and stab away. I think it is better to irimi and move...especially when you are concerned about multiple opponents.

Kevin Leavitt

08-26-2009, 07:17 PM

Oh, yea..also another good thing about moving this way is that I think it also better allows you to use minimium force.

For example, if you have to employ the knife on the front, once you get to the back, it could be that you could choose to limit the damage on the backend if you feel comfortable with your control of the situation.

So, at least, there is some "Positive" in all this gory talk of using knives!

phitruong

08-26-2009, 07:56 PM

i thought this discussion is about non-traditional weapons. wouldn't knife list under traditional? i was thinking along the line of shovel, garden hose, hand axe, high heel shoes, bayonet, belt with big buckle, leather jacket, bag of coins, knuckle laced with keys, watermelon, wet noodles, ... :D

Kevin Leavitt

08-26-2009, 08:48 PM

Phi, good point! LOL! well, I would submit based on my methdology that you approach those the same way, no difference in dynamic pattern/principle. Although I guess if you use the right amount of internal skillz with the watermelon you could strike them in the head with it and it would get stuck on their head so as they could not see and they would be disoriented and fall down trying to pull it off.

08-27-2009, 09:17 AM

Great video.
Funny that when the security guard was stabbed he didn't instantly die. I hope you can pick up on my sarcasm here. Often times when I show the drills we do at my school people want to know why the guy getting cut doesn't stop attacking, because "if that were a real knife"...

Situations like the one seen here in the video seem like the dangerous ones to me (from the perspective of the guy with the weapon). You use your weapon and the guy does not fall down dead, but in fact attacks harder.

These are the types of situations where classical Japanese techniques come in handy. And the more I read about real life knife encounters the more it sounds like it will go down something like show in the video, then someone gets cut and they fall down dead, or stop their attack.

That guard did the right thing by controlling the weapon hand ( when he managed to knock the knife out of the attackers hand). And did the wrong thing when he tried to push and kick the aggressive attacker away.
Chris
I think you continue to misunderstand some of the comments aimed you way. You hear the critiques as criticisms and you don't "hear" the compliments in the responses.
What I have said to you time and time again is that I admire what your goals and aims are. Didn't I say that to you over and over? My biggest "critique" to your research is the crash test dummy, incompetent weapon wielders. Their attacks are awful and their follow ups are worse. Further their positioning or should I say their lack thereof makes the whole exercise and the results-moot.

Your comments about being criticized about the one being cut continuing to be able to "fight-on" after first contact:
You missed the thrust of the critiques; a sword and the distances it is used at by competent men- is an almost completely different scenario then a knife; the damage is more grievous and the chances of repeated attacks while maintaining distance are not on par with knife work.

The knife work displayed on your videos has the wielder all but giving up when you enter in and not distancing himself or staying engaged during your defense. In short he does "ukemi" while wielding the knife.

I hope you continue. I only encourage you to seek out more competent opponents to wield the weapons so you end up with more realistic and "alive" scenarios that people will take more seriously.
Here's hoping that you do.
Dan