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Stormcrow34
08-19-2009, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the well wishes.

I hope it's not too much of a thread-drift, but I was curious about your Aunkai training experience and its affect on your Yoseikan Budo. Care to share?

David Orange
08-19-2009, 01:23 PM
Thanks I hope it's not too much of a thread-drift, but I was curious about your Aunkai training experience and its affect on your Yoseikan Budo. Care to share?

First, Edgar Kruyning says that, concerning budo practice, "It's all tanren." Tanren is the general term for what Aunkai does--self-conditioning. So Edgar says that budo practice, itself, is tanren. But I do think it's not all equal. Edgar is a very powerful guy, pretty highly ranked in judo as well as yoseikan and aikido. He came into the yoseikan and was able to move at the highest levels of their judo and aikido. It's likely that he could get some benefit from the aunkai training, himself, but I don't really see much room for correction in what he does.

I was not so skilled and the aunkai training has given me some insights into some of the weak points I had noticed in my own technique. One point, in particular, is common to a couple of the sutemi waza. Aunkai's concentration on the upper body cross quickly gave me insight into what had always failed for me in those two sutemi waza and I intuitively recognized what I had been doing wrong, even without going back and actually doing those techniques to anyone. Also, for a technique like do gaeshi, aunkai training can take that up a good notch or two. I'm sure that long concentration on aunkai methods could really do a lot for an average person's abilities in yoseikan waza.

Hope that's helpful.

David

Stormcrow34
08-19-2009, 02:43 PM
First, Edgar Kruyning says that, concerning budo practice, "It's all tanren." Tanren is the general term for what Aunkai does--self-conditioning. So Edgar says that budo practice, itself, is tanren.
David

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, I am sincere in asking them. I get the impression from reading about Aunkai on various message boards that Aunkai is primarliy focused on building, or forging a martial body, through physical and mental excercises and posture rather than through technique. But if budo is "all tanren", isn't budo training with technique just another exercise to build/forge the body to move as a unit? Like te hodoki, for example?

David Orange
08-19-2009, 09:09 PM
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, I am sincere in asking them. I get the impression from reading about Aunkai on various message boards that Aunkai is primarliy focused on building, or forging a martial body, through physical and mental excercises and posture rather than through technique. But if budo is "all tanren", isn't budo training with technique just another exercise to build/forge the body to move as a unit? Like te hodoki, for example?

Well...yes and no. If your budo is largely calesthentics, that's not really the same as tanren. Tanren can look very similar to calesthentics but the purpose of tanren is different and very specific. Things like the sumo stomp, for instance, tai atari...

as opposed to push ups and sit ups and sheerly repetetive action as in technique. You can practice technique in a way that's closer to calesthentics than to tanren and you won't get the same effect as if you practice technique as tanren, with the attention to the specific forces at work inside your own body...

if that can give some idea. The appearance can be so close that most people will never notice a difference, but Edgar's the kind of guy you can't hide anything from. He understood that stuff a long time ago.

Best to you.

David

Demetrio Cereijo
08-20-2009, 09:30 AM
David,

Can you ellaborate about Hiroo's "undulation"?

David Orange
08-20-2009, 11:27 AM
David,

Can you ellaborate about Hiroo's "undulation"?

I don't know enough about Hiroo Sensei's method to talk about it, really. I have seen clips and I've met him a couple of times, trained with him over one weekend and took ukemi for him, but he displays the wave movement in punches and kicks, cutting with the sword, judo throws, aikido throws and, apparently all his methods. He has made it his central focus and is able to generate all his efforts through a wave that passes through his body from the ground up.

I will let Hiroo Sensei speak for himself (in French...)

But watching this, you can get the general idea of the concept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMfGvjbg6t4

David

Stormcrow34
08-20-2009, 01:53 PM
I don’t know if undulation is similar in nature, or even related to the thing you see a lot of people talking about on this site. I don’t know very much about these things at all. But I know what I’ve felt and there is definitely something to wave movement. After practicing and talking about Tanto Happo and the principles that kata illustrates, I was shown how with a light touch and no visible movement I could be knocked back a couple of feet and have my head snap as if I were punched. It didn’t feel like any undulation I’ve ever known...and I’m not sure which one I prefer! :D

jss
08-20-2009, 02:06 PM
The appearance can be so close that most people will never notice a difference, but Edgar's the kind of guy you can't hide anything from. He understood that stuff a long time ago.
What skills then does Edgar demonstrate that show his understanding of internal skills?
And if he has these skills, why isn't he teaching them? The following page (sorry, in Dutch) 'De lessen' at yoseikan.nl (http://www.yoseikan.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53&Itemid=70) mentions warming-up exercises such as running, sit-ups and push-ups, but no tanren. The page on Aikido doesn't talk about it either...

David Orange
08-20-2009, 02:22 PM
What skills then does Edgar demonstrate that show his understanding of internal skills?

IHTBF. Go get your hands on him and let me know what you think.

David

Flintstone
09-01-2009, 05:30 AM
David, I guess you could help me with this: is there any relationship between Yoseikan's oshikaeshi and tsuppari and the methods in the Aunkai? Aren't the former methods of internal training? Or am I off my tracks in this?

Thanks!!