Steven Seagal seems like a jerk teacher. A bit at least...

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[sammywhip]

I've done what any normal person would do, and looked up videos of Steven Seagal when I was really bored... Not really normal. But, he seems like kind of a jerk when it comes to teaching. He seems really uninterested in what's happening, and just has an aura of arrogance on the mat. I mean, the dude is good, (not at acting, he's horrendous) but he just seems a bit too pretentious.

Anybody else share this opinion?

[Darryl Cowens]

Well, this is Steven Seagal you are talking about.... :p

I'm a fan of his earlier movies (I ordered one with some gaming merchandise from a local online gaming site yesterday in fact) but as actors go, he's no Al Pacino, and as martial-arts-"actors" go he's no Bruce Lee or Tony Jaa.

I don't know if you can use his approach to movie making as a reflection of the man himself or not... but consider this.. in all the Seagal movies I have watched, and I have watched all his pre-direct-to-video era (when he actually did his own stunts and choreographed more than just himself slapping people and shooting them) many, many times... I can only think of one movie where even the lead antagonist got one or two shots in...

There is definately an ego there... in one aspect of his life at least..

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

Well, this is Steven Seagal you are talking about.... :p There is definately an ego there... in one aspect of his life at least..

Good point, Darryl... unlike everyone else.

Best in training to you and all...

.

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

Well, this is Steven Seagal you are talking about.... :p There is definately an ego there... in one aspect of his life at least..

Good point, Darryl... unlike you and everyone else.

Best in training to you and all...

.

[Sy Labthavikul]

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

The only thing worse than someone driven by ego is someone who says (or worse, actually believes) that they are not...

To which I will add

PS - The secret of training is to know yourself. The hardest part, though is to be yourself. Go figure...

...otherwise, very clever and funny, too!

best in training to all...

.

[Darryl Cowens]

LOL.. thanks for that read Sy..

Well, some reading around reveals this to be a touchy, controversial maybe even taboo subject at best...

Curses!! Why isn't there a sticky, or bullet point in the FAQs that says no Seagal threads allowed? :eek:

Darryl, - tongue firmly in cheek and pondering who was better in the AM movies... Micheal Dudikoff or David Bradley?... (ok, that's a no-contest really) :sorry:

[Shadowfax]

Aww shoot I did something else wrong....

I thought normal people looked up u-tube videos of O-Sensei.....

It matters little whether Segal Sensei is or is not a jerk unless you happen to be the one training with him I should think.

Sy you are too funny. Great post! You don't happen to practice Ikea-do do you?

[sammywhip]

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

That was hilarious.

And yes, a Seagal thread was probably a bad idea on my part. My apologies...

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

That was hilarious.

And yes, a Seagal thread was probably a bad idea on my part. My apologies...

Sammy,

Given the host of current threads that discuss variations on the "what's missing in Aikido?" "Why is it hidden in plain sight?" and "How can I get it?" I don't think you starting a thread about Seagal Sensei was a bad idea. See, he pushed people to ask themselves those same questions more than 25 years ago. He managed to rattle many feathers back in the day with those questions. People who are now asking those same questions are rattling feathers, too. There was and still is a certain mandatory level of negative response that should be expected I guess. Of course, Seagal Sensei did it from within the art. Forces that have recently mobilized are from outside of the art. However, things have moved far forward from 25 years ago. As such, the results being achieved today have been more pervasive in terms of their effect. Of course, those same effects have been about as negative as what was attributed to Seagal Sensei, himself. So go figure...

Had you had the opportunity to have studied Aikido with Seagal Sensei back in the late 80's and early 90's you might have said something very different in this thread. However, had that been true, like the rest of us who actually did take advantage of that opportunity, you would have a different perspective, one you more than likely would keep between yourself and your own students.

FWIW

Best in training to you and all...

.

[Ron Tisdale]

And just a quick note (which means this is just my opinion and it shouldn't be used to beat me about the head and face ;))...

The same thing (being kind of a jerk) could be said about almost anyone at some time or another. For instance, one could pull up, say, *my* posting history on aikiweb, and say "ya know, that guy Ron Tisdale sure has a lot of posts, but he's kind of a jerk..."

You'd even get some to agree with you! :D

Best,
Ron

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

And just a quick note (which means this is just my opinion and it shouldn't be used to beat me about the head and face ;))...

The same thing (being kind of a jerk) could be said about almost anyone at some time or another. For instance, one could pull up, say, *my* posting history on aikiweb, and say "ya know, that guy Ron Tisdale sure has a lot of posts, but he's kind of a jerk..."

You'd even get some to agree with you! :D

Best,
Ron

Here on AikiWeb? Me, Mike, Dan, Mary, Eric and some others that fortunately slip my mind at the moment, Ron, but you? With your tactful, ever-changing signatures... NEVER!

Best in training to you and all...

.

[Ron Tisdale]

me? Tactful??? You must be kidding! :D

As far as being pretentious, most people who actually have something to say about an endeavor they've spent 20 years at can seem pretentious, I guess.
B,
R

[Lulu]

Sy, thanks for the laughs.
I had never heard of Steven Segal when I started training so I never looked up to him, but now having seen some films and having gone to one of his concerts - only went out of curiosity and got in free- I think that he is kind of a Jerk - but aren't we all at times?

[David Orange]

Given the host of current threads that discuss variations on the "what's missing in Aikido?" "Why is it hidden in plain sight?" and "How can I get it?" I don't think you starting a thread about Seagal Sensei was a bad idea. See, he pushed people to ask themselves those same questions more than 25 years ago.

Shaun, sorry, but I don't see that at all. He put the "big jerk" back in aikido....(was it missing? did we really need it?) but I have never heard of anything he did related to "internal mechanics" whatsoever. I think he has badly misused aikido for his own glorification and has thereby sent very bad messages into the world, using the very great power of a great martial art to imbed them deeply in the common consciousness--the sick actions of a sick mind.

He managed to rattle many feathers back in the day with those questions. People who are now asking those same questions are rattling feathers, too.

Sorry again: what questions? He did emphasize "combat effectiveness" of aikido, but the questions of today are more along the lines of "what internal mechanics powered O Sensei's ability to be immoveable and also unstoppable?" Seagal's only answer seems to be "Be waaaayyy bigger than anyone else, have generally sound aikido technique and execute it without spiritual, moral or ethical concern."

There was and still is a certain mandatory level of negative response that should be expected I guess. Of course, Seagal Sensei did it from within the art. Forces that have recently mobilized are from outside of the art. However, things have moved far forward from 25 years ago. As such, the results being achieved today have been more pervasive in terms of their effect. Of course, those same effects have been about as negative as what was attributed to Seagal Sensei, himself. So go figure...

No way, Shaun. The current discussions centered around Mike Sigman, Dan Harden and Minouru Akuzawa/Rob John all concern internal mechanics far more than theoretical "combat effectiveness" (and Segal's "combat effectiveness" seems to include a lot of magical Schwarzenegger-like ability to be unhit by machine gun fire while taking out one-bad-guy-per-bullet-fired from his own pistol).

Aiki is, in large part, a method of communicating from one's own subconscious mind to a would-be attacker's unconscious mind and shutting down the would-be attacker's subconscious confidence and will to attack ("The art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance, and win without fighting." --Sokaku Takeda).

Segal has used that subconscious communication to deeply imbed justifications for extreme violence into the subconscious mentality of everyone who has watched his movies. His "heroes" are always jerks and the violence is always lovingly glorified. His best work was in two movies: "The Challenge," starring Toshiro Mifune and Scott Glenn, which Segal choreographed; and "Above the Law". Everything after has been a downward spiral (which has been getting faster every year for about the past twenty years. I recently borrowed a few of his latest movies from the library and found them to have sullied my library card. These latest movies show his real character. His early stuff showed tremendous potential, but his latest stuff proves that his misuse of the power of aikido has really rotted his brain, his personality and his acting ability. What schlock.

David

[David Orange]

And just a quick note (which means this is just my opinion and it shouldn't be used to beat me about the head and face ;))...

The same thing (being kind of a jerk) could be said about almost anyone at some time or another. For instance, one could pull up, say, *my* posting history on aikiweb, and say "ya know, that guy Ron Tisdale sure has a lot of posts, but he's kind of a jerk..."

You'd even get some to agree with you!

Ron, you could take all your worst posts, all my worsts posts and all Mike Sigman's worst and put them together in a loaf of bread and they still wouldn't add up to one of Seagal's sneering arm-breaks, where the bones pop out of the guy's arm--or one of the scenes where he busts someone's face repeatedly into a mirror while sneering his jerk remarks at the guy. There just is no comparison.

Best to you.

David

[Ron Tisdale]

Yause! Hi David. I'm just a pussy cat compared to everyone else on that list! ;) Including Seagal...
B,
R

[David Orange]

Yause! Hi David. I'm just a pussy cat compared to everyone else on that list! ;) Including Seagal...

And for nasty remarks, I've never heard anything out of you like I've posted...

You're okay in my book. Dan had a lot of good to say about you, too.

Best to you.

David

[Phil Van Treese]

Steven Seagal has an ego, as we all do, and he may be a jerk. If anyone out there can stand up to him, I'd like to see it.

[David Orange]

Steven Seagal has an ego, as we all do, and he may be a jerk. If anyone out there can stand up to him, I'd like to see it.

Why stand up to someone who's rotting before your eyes???

I do recall his getting into a little challenge match with "Judo" Gene LeBell.

It came up this way on a web search:

"Seagal was allegedly trashing (physically) his stuntmen, hitting them hard, throwing them hard, and hurting them. LeBell, who was a past president of the guild, went to Seagal and called him on it. Words were exchanged, and Seagal opened the festivities by kicking Gene in the groin.

LeBell ignored the kick, shot in and took Seagal's back. He then choked him out. Seagal lost control of his bladder, wetting his pants. He woke up, squared off, and asked LeBell if he'd like to try it again--which he did, successfully."

Like Seagal says, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall."

[Kevin Leavitt]

David Orange wrote:

Shaun, sorry, but I don't see that at all. He put the "big jerk" back in aikido....(was it missing? did we really need it?) but I have never heard of anything he did related to "internal mechanics" whatsoever. I think he has badly misused aikido for his own glorification and has thereby sent very bad messages into the world, using the very great power of a great martial art to imbed them deeply in the common consciousness--the sick actions of a sick mind

Damn, so that is what is wrong with my aikido! Now I have someone to blame! Frickin Seagal!

[David Orange]

Damn, so that is what is wrong with my aikido! Now I have someone to blame! Frickin Seagal!

Welll....don't know about that...but if you do really snappy technique and bash your ukes about unnecessarily....and you've watched a lot of Seagal....could be. On the other hand, from the clip I saw of you doing aikido, you didn't look like that.

Actually, I really liked (and still like) "The Challenge" and I consider "Above the Law" to have some great choreography, but it's all been downhill from there.

Actually, I put Chuck Norris and Seagal on a very similar level: both teach by example that you can "build a case" for extreme violence and that the resulting violence is "better" the more extreme it is. You can totally dehumanize the other guy until anything is ok to do to him. Then they feed us and the impressionable youth of the world images of unleashed hyper-violence.

In Seagal's case, I think it's worse because aikido is a more powerful vehicle for subconscious communication and its techniques are more capable of extreme injury than the stuff Chuck does. Also, Chuck doesn't project that sneering, taunting...."JERK"...image that Seagal has made his trademark. And Chuck doesn't have the reputation in real life of roughing up people who work with him in the movies.

Over the years, Seagal's techniques have gotten so wooden and predictable, a continual deterioration of the choreography in his older movies and the camera shows less and less of the "technique" while keeping that jerk personality shining through.

He has badly misused the great gift of aikido and he's paying the price in his personal life as his movies continue to get worse and worse. IMHO.

David

[sammywhip]

It's his desire to hurt people, that's what gives off that impression to me...

[David Orange]

It's his desire to hurt people, that's what gives off that impression to me...

Well said. You can just see it oozing out of him; the desire to hurt people, for one, and the desire to be seen as being "able" to hurt people. For a really good look at that, check out "Exit Wounds," based on a book by a police officer who probably was kicked off the force. He goes to anger management and sneers at everyone because he knows he doesn't need to manage his anger. He just needs to hurt more people...which he justifies to the nth degree. A sick mind.

[gnlj]

Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?

[Aikilove]

Gimme' a break David! I've respected your opinions at this forum going far back, but using some movie-character-intended-to-sell-alot-at-the-box office as a representative for someones RL-personality, character and otherwise moral build, leaves me little room than to think you are a very naive or narrow minded person yourself.
But I might be wrong about you, because I haven't met you or trained with you, so damaging words on a forum like this could have been a slip or something NOT representing you as a person. Or have you actually spend some time with the man you speak so highly of? Or are you really just using Hollywood flicks, and third hand stories, as a frame of reference when judging a man?
*shudders* 'guess it says more about you than Seagal. Maybe he is a "jerk". Maybe not. I don't know, so I prefer to not say anything negative in public about a man I don't know.

/J

[David Orange]

Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?

His films are a form of teaching. He's certainly "taught" more people about aikido in the films than he has in real life.

What would you think of aikido if Ueshiba did those kinds of things in the video clips you see of him?

Not good lessons.

[David Orange]

Gimme' a break David! I've respected your opinions at this forum going far back, but using some movie-character-intended-to-sell-alot-at-the-box office as a representative for someones RL-personality, character and otherwise moral build, leaves me little room than to think you are a very naive or narrow minded person yourself.

You wouldn't be the only person to think so.

However, aikido is a tremendously powerful mode of subconscious communication. Seagal's films are a despicable use of that powerful tool and gift. It's just like Jim and Tammy Bakker or any other person who misuses The Bible to make money for themselves. It's evil. It's the equivalent of prostituting aikido, and his positition would equate to the pimp in that simile. I hate to see a great art used that way. And that is real life.

David

[AsimHanif]

Seems strange to me that people would hold Seagal Sensei under such tough scrutiny though most of us here have not studied with him directly or indirectly but at the same time will not hold our own 'heads of organizations' to the same scrutiny.

[Mark Mueller]

me? Tactful??? You must be kidding! :D

As far as being pretentious, most people who actually have something to say about an endeavor they've spent 20 years at can seem pretentious, I guess.
B,
R

and that is one of the main problems with the folks who have been practicing 20 years (myself included). Can we get past the messenger to the message?

[David Orange]

Seems strange to me that people would hold Seagal Sensei under such tough scrutiny though most of us here have not studied with him directly or indirectly but at the same time will not hold our own 'heads of organizations' to the same scrutiny.

If you've seen his movies, you've studied with him indirectly and his prostitution of aikido has influenced your deeper mind.

If you don't hold your "head of organization" to a high standard, it's a very big mistake.

David

[ninjaqutie]

In several of his movies, someone he loves (daughter, lover, etc) has been abducted or something similar. If you were going out to try to save someone, would you not have a little aggression and perhaps be a bit more violent then neccessary? Judging someone from movies just doesn't seem fair to me. As far as judging from videos, how do you know he is being mean to his uke? If the uke has stuck around that long obviously it doesn't bother them and chances are they can take the fall just fine. I wouldn't mind sensei throwing me about if I knew how to take the fall. Opinions from other people are often twisted as they go down the line of 50 people till it gets to you. Should you take others experiences into consideration? Certainly. However, I wouldn't suggest making a final judgement until you have personally met and or trained with a person.

That is just my opinion though.....

[Michael Hackett]

On the other hand, his earlier movies created a wider interest in Aikido with the general public. Some of those folks found dojo and began training and learned that Aikido was far different than what they saw on the screen and stuck with it to become excellent martial artists and better people perhaps. We've had generations of martial artists/actors who have engendered interest in the MAs and may or may not have been terrific human beings. Spencer Tracy, Jimmy Cagney, David Carradine and the list goes on.

Oh yeah, I'm not one of Seagal Sensei's students, nor a fan. I have had the pleasure of training once with one of his direct students and one student who was a "generation removed". Both were wonderful folks to train with. They were tough, focused, and generous people on the mat. I can only wonder where they learned that......

[Lan Powers]

From "Path Beyond Thought" the film has a very long list of students, (and former students) who had only praise for him on a personal level.
The film personna is a construct who (it is hoped) doesn't reflect his true personal qualities.
It IS just acting, however poorly done.

For what it is worth, the very first time I actually SAW Aikido was in his movie Above The Law. Heard of it, wanted to try it, butnever actually found it in the rural area I lived in.
Big ripples in the movie pond when it came out.... as posted earlier lots of potential *then*.
Lan

[David Orange]

In several of his movies, someone he loves (daughter, lover, etc) has been abducted or something similar. If you were going out to try to save someone, would you not have a little aggression and perhaps be a bit more violent then neccessary?

Sure. And what if they dismembered someone you loved and kept their torso alive on a hot griddle, slowly roasting?

Sick idea, isn't it?

Isn't it sick to dream up garbage like that and post it for others? And isn't it sicker to film something like that and make it more and more gruesome until people desire to see the person who "did" it be likewise tortured (Steven Seagal style) until bones pop out of their bodies and he actually gouges their eyes out of their heads (Marked for Death, was it?)?

The point of the whole thing is that Seagal and Chuck Norris both go to great lengths to build up these inhuman monsters and to stir people's desire to see violence done to them. That is the sick and evil part of what they do (along with the hyper violence, of course).

Judging someone from movies just doesn't seem fair to me.

A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Luke 6:44-46

His movies speak of the abundance of his heart, as someone said above, he just seems to desire to hurt people. You let his evil into your mind, you let him hurt you, too. His sick movies have hurt a lot of people and they have hurt aikido.

As far as judging from videos, how do you know he is being mean to his uke? If the uke has stuck around that long obviously it doesn't bother them and chances are they can take the fall just fine. I wouldn't mind sensei throwing me about if I knew how to take the fall.

I didn't mention Seagal's video training clips. I said if you saw O Sensei acting like that in his videos, you'd think he was a super jerk, too.

David

[Phil Van Treese]

Well, I guess I found out a lot of stuff I didn't know before about Seagal. If you feel that you must hurt your ukes to prove a point then you are a loser, regardless. I heard about the Gene LeBelle encounter before but I didn't know if that were true. I guess it was because they way I heard it was the same way exactly that I read it here in the forum. Wow.

[Jonathan]

I remember watching "Marked for Death" and being appalled at the over-the-top violence Seagal's character applied to the main bad guy. If I remember correctly, Seagal cuts the guy in the crotch with a sword, thumbs out his eyes, breaks his back and then throws him down an elevator shaft onto some massive bolt sticking out of the floor. What's the message in so utterly and savagely destroying another person? Nothing good, I think.

Jon.

[sammywhip]

Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?

Hmm. With regards to ego, maybe. Lol.

[Kevin Karr]

I guess you could say I began my Aikido journey by training "indirectly" with Steven Seagal (with Larry Reynosa Sensei). I loved every minute of it! Reynosa Sensei was great and the training was great. The standard was set very high. It wasn't until I got mixed up with the Aiki-Bunnies that I started to have doubts about Aikido.

[David Orange]

I remember watching "Marked for Death" and being appalled at the over-the-top violence Seagal's character applied to the main bad guy. If I remember correctly, Seagal cuts the guy in the crotch with a sword, thumbs out his eyes, breaks his back and then throws him down an elevator shaft onto some massive bolt sticking out of the floor. What's the message in so utterly and savagely destroying another person? Nothing good, I think.

That's what I'm talking about. And I don't want to seem like that's the kind of thing I'm trying to do to Seagal, myself, or to his reputation, but that's what he puts out. I notice that when my little boy gets angry, he does it like me, and that is not good. But I know he's my mirror and that he's putting back what I've put out. I'm not in much of a place to judge other people at all, and I'm generally not qualified to judge even what they do, but sometimes...

In this case, I have to speak against the use of aikido to make money by exploiting the potential for hyper violence. And again, I can't stress enough that aiki involves deep influence of other people's subconscious minds. And to implant these kinds of seriously depraved images into that level of the public consciousness, through such a refined medium as the motion picture is seriously bad karma.

David

[ninjaqutie]

His movies speak of the abundance of his heart, as someone said above, he just seems to desire to hurt people. You let his evil into your mind, you let him hurt you, too. His sick movies have hurt a lot of people and they have hurt aikido.

While you are at it, why not mention every other person who has been in a violent movie or a movie that involves bad morals. You can't single out an actor or two when countless do it. Acting is called acting for a reason. There are even people playing "good roles" who certainly don't live that kind of life. You can't judge a person by a role that they act, nor can you judge a book by its cover.

I didn't mention Seagal's video training clips. I said if you saw O Sensei acting like that in his videos, you'd think he was a super jerk, too.

I never said you mentioned his training clips. Someone else did. As far as seing O' Sensei tossing around an uke, again it wouldn't bother me provided the uke is/appears to be capable of taking those falls.

[Marc Abrams]

That's what I'm talking about. And I don't want to seem like that's the kind of thing I'm trying to do to Seagal, myself, or to his reputation, but that's what he puts out. I notice that when my little boy gets angry, he does it like me, and that is not good. But I know he's my mirror and that he's putting back what I've put out. I'm not in much of a place to judge other people at all, and I'm generally not qualified to judge even what they do, but sometimes...

In this case, I have to speak against the use of aikido to make money by exploiting the potential for hyper violence. And again, I can't stress enough that aiki involves deep influence of other people's subconscious minds. And to implant these kinds of seriously depraved images into that level of the public consciousness, through such a refined medium as the motion picture is seriously bad karma.

David

David:

I frankly miss the people who use to call the NYC school looking for a place to learn Steven Seagal's Aikido. I was doing a good sideline business in selling Aikido's Super Secret Credit Card -> "It slices, it dices your opponents necks into fine julienne strips....:eek: !"

On the serious side, I am in sync with you on this one. As a parent and now grandparent, I am concerned about what we expose our children to. Watching our children repeat our own stupidity is bad enough, that we do not need other "role models" like that helping us out.

Look forward to training with you again in the near future (I hope).

Regards,

Marc Abrams

[Maarten De Queecker]

There is a documentary on S. Seagal as an aikidoist on youtube. Yes, his aikido is a lot harder than most of us are used to, but he wants it to be effective on the street. The reason he might come across as a jerk might be because he "knows and expects excelence", to quote one of his students. He is probably not the kind of instructor you would go to if you only want to train twice a week, but rather the kind of instructor for people who want to devote their life to aikido. He has really high standards.

An example from my life: I have had some jerky teachers in high school. When I graduated and reminisced about those years, I realized that I learned most from that one teacher who would push me to do better time and time again. She forced me to study hard, even though I did not want to and the subject did not interest me one bit. She did not go soft on me (or on anyone else, for that matter): she gave biting remarks if I once again forgot to do some task -I'm rather forgetful, if I made a mistake I should not have made anymore in that year. She even had the guts to laugh in your face and call you stupid. I really hated to go to those lessons, but at the end of the day, I learned a LOT. She only acted that way because she wanted us to reach a certain level, which most of us eventually did. I have actually ended up studying that particular subject, now.

So I wonder: is it a teacher's task to be friendly, or to teach people new things and move them further beyond their limits than they thought possible? Being looked down upon or reprimanded has a certain effect on people: they desperately want to prove their teacher and fellow students that they can do it, that they are this good, so they will train harder, and with more resolve.

It depends on which teaching method you prefer.

[sammywhip]

In "The Path Beyond Thought" his students drove me insane. They were just like, little mental slaves that would die for Seagal. It was really annoying, they all had their heads up his ass.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Just a quick reminder that there are people here on AikiWeb who have trained and/or studied with the person in question in this thread.

Please take the time and effort to moderate the tone of your postings. The first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect."

Thank you,

-- Jun

[Darryl Cowens]

Umm, just a little point here.... the only movie I can recall that ever included any 'real' aikido and reference to it was "Nico:Above the Law"

Most of them just recycled the theme of him being a (not so) lean, mean, fighting machine that was a trained Navy Seal or CIA spook etc, etc....

Casual ction movie fans don't get too caught up in authenticity (some of us picky fans do though :P ) .... Just look at JCVD in Kickboxer taking on a Muay Thai fighter, using his traditional choreographed moves.. :rolleyes:

[David Orange]

While you are at it, why not mention every other person who has been in a violent movie or a movie that involves bad morals.

Because their acting doesn't employ as deep a subconscious-to-subconscious communication capacity as Seagal's aikido. It's not that he makes atrocious movies, but that he so misuses the power of aikido to do it, and broadcasts such a counter-aikido spirit in his movies that, as a long time student of aikido, I can't let it go without comment.

You can't single out an actor or two when countless do it.

This isn't so much about his acting but about what he chooses to portray and how he misuses aikido to do it.

Acting is called acting for a reason. There are even people playing "good roles" who certainly don't live that kind of life. You can't judge a person by a role that they act, nor can you judge a book by its cover.

"We are what we pretend to be. Therefore, we must be careful what we pretend to be."
Kurt Vonnegutt

As far as seing O' Sensei tossing around an uke, again it wouldn't bother me provided the uke is/appears to be capable of taking those falls.

So you would think just as well of O Sensei if you saw him smashing people's faces into mirrors or bathroom sinks? Not many ukes can take that.

David

[Darryl Cowens]

Well, I was going to edit my post, but can't now... but it seems appropiate all the same to try and lighten the mood with a "Woohoo" because a courier van just dropped off 'The Glimmer Man' for me on DVD, along with a limited edition Halo figurine I had ordered for my step-son's 17th birthday this weekend :D

[G Sinclair]

Do you think his film roles can be equated to how he taught/teaches?

When Seagal Sensei teaches he is direct and succinct. He answers all questions honestly and with tremendous insight. There was one time I had so many questions about Irimi-nage that I had them listed out on a sheet of paper. By the time he answered the first question there was no need to continue. He had explained it in such a way that I knew exactly what he was doing. However, he expects once he does teach something, that you understand it and perform it correctly. He seems to be turned off by having to repeat himself. But is that not the way many traditional teachers teach? His Aikido is on a different level, thus, he teaches on a different level.

As for his desire to hurt people, I will say this: His desire for functional Aikido is greater than his desire to hurt people. I have been in a compromised position more than once (shihonage) and he paused to allow me to catch up or adjust before throwing. Having the opportunity to hurt me, he chose not to.

[Max Hoskins]

i think you're not being sensitive to Casey Ryback's feelings. lmao

[sammywhip]

When Seagal Sensei teaches he is direct and succinct. He answers all questions honestly and with tremendous insight. There was one time I had so many questions about Irimi-nage that I had them listed out on a sheet of paper. By the time he answered the first question there was no need to continue. He had explained it in such a way that I knew exactly what he was doing. However, he expects once he does teach something, that you understand it and perform it correctly. He seems to be turned off by having to repeat himself. But is that not the way many traditional teachers teach? His Aikido is on a different level, thus, he teaches on a different level.

As for his desire to hurt people, I will say this: His desire for functional Aikido is greater than his desire to hurt people. I have been in a compromised position more than once (shihonage) and he paused to allow me to catch up or adjust before throwing. Having the opportunity to hurt me, he chose not to.

Well, I mean, that sounds cool. I can understand not wanting to repeat yourself when you give highly detailed answers.

And my apologies for the bad word above.

[David Orange]

...As a parent and now grandparent, I am concerned about what we expose our children to. Watching our children repeat our own stupidity is bad enough, that we do not need other "role models" like that helping us out.

Stan Pranin wrote a nice article on that subject, calling on Steven Seagal and Chuck Norris both to come off the hyper violence for those same reasons.


---
An Open Letter to Norris, Seagal, and Van Damme
by Stanley Pranin
Aiki News #97 (Fall/Winter 1993)
A little boy made me write this letter. A little boy whose name is John. He's my son. I've watched him grow for the last two years and eight months, and each day he has gained more knowledge, strength and dexterity. I have noted that he acquires most of his skills through observation, imitation, and repetition. Therefore, as a parent I feel a great responsibility for creating a positive, supportive environment in order to enhance his ability to learn.

The other night I settled down with my family for a relaxed evening watching an "action-comedy" movie, but it still contained the typical repertoire of killings, explosives, car chases, and the like. At a certain point in the film, little John instinctively recoiled from the television set in reaction to a violent scene and I found myself reaching over, also instinctively, to cover his eyes with my hands.

This set me to thinking, gentleman. Here we have the marvelous media of film, television, and video with their enormous potential to entertain and educate. Yet with the type of programming offered, we are obliged to pay careful attention in order to protect our children from being exposed to a steady stream of violence, vulgarity, and pornography. I don't think it takes a Ph.D. to understand that children, and adults too for that matter, are strongly influenced by what they see on movie and TV screens. The nonchalant attitude of the entertainment industry concerning this situation reminds me very much of the stance of the tobacco companies who still cling to the claim that there is no conclusive scientific proof linking cigarette smoking to numerous diseases.

Mr. Norris, Mr. Seagal, and Mr. Van Damme, I wouldn't even bother to address these comments to you gentlemen were it not for the fact that you are "martial artists," or to put it a bit more poetically, "seeker on the martial path." I would therefore suspect, given your lethal skills, that you have heightened understanding and appreciation for the consequences of your actions. All three of you have attained outstanding abilities in the martial arts through years of effort, sweat, and pain. You have subsequently made use of these talents to captivate screen audiences the world over and have touched hundreds of millions of youngsters who comprise the majority of your fans. The influence you wield is mind-boggling and carries with it a remarkable potential for inspiring and shaping young minds.

Although there is much to admire in the heroes you portray on the bigger-than-life movie screen -- courage in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles, technical expertise, physical conditioning and development -- I believe that the message you are conveying through your film roles is profoundly negative and destructive.

Given the genre of films in which you appear no one expects you to turn in Academy Award-winning performances or portray complex characters who undergo subtle psychological transformations. However, even though your screen alter-egos are usually heroes, they are heroes whose notions of right and wrong are frequently blurred and who resort to violence at the drop of a hat. Your fictional counterparts are like trigger-happy gunfighters who would rather fight than flee even though their actions lead to injuries or death. Your decision in the face of fictional danger and violence provide a menu of choices for many impressionable youngsters who will imitate you in an an attempt to solve their own real-life problems. Doesn't this scare the hell out of you and fill you with a deep humbleness for the importance of your roles as character models?

Surely the mark of a master of martial arts lies not in reflexively resorting to a physical solution for disputes, but rather in displaying an expanded awareness and determination not to exercise force except in the most extreme circumstances. Your screen characters are often arrogant show-offs who flaunt a false sense of righteousness and are in great part responsible for the low image of martial arts in many quarters.

You might claim in "self-defense" that there is really nothing you can do about the quality or content of the movies in which you are contractually bound to appear and that it is the industry moguls who call all the shots. This would be somewhat convincing if you were just breaking into films. However, you have long since achieved your fame, fortunes, and the power that accompanies them, and are certainly able to influence the story-lines and final content of your film vehicles. You are mega-stars and with this comes mega-responsibility!
----
I'm not sure that's the whole bit. But it's a good summary.

Look forward to training with you again in the near future (I hope).

I hope so, too. Best to you and yours.

David

[Nafis Zahir]

There is a documentary on S. Seagal as an aikidoist on youtube. Yes, his aikido is a lot harder than most of us are used to, but he wants it to be effective on the street. The reason he might come across as a jerk might be because he "knows and expects excelence", to quote one of his students. He is probably not the kind of instructor you would go to if you only want to train twice a week, but rather the kind of instructor for people who want to devote their life to aikido. He has really high standards.


Excellent point! If you don't like his style of training, then just ignore it. It's not for everybody. I recently met a former student of his that has invited me to come and train with him one day. He did mention that the training was rather hard. He said that because he doesn't know what I am use to. I currently train in Chiba Sensei's style, which is another style that is thought to be "hard." If you have ever been to a seminar with him, some might say that he is a jerk, he's too rough, too brutal, and doesn't care about his uke. Many on the other hand don't see it that way. They see it as hard training that could lead to good self defense on the street. One thing Seagal wants from his students, is for them to really be able to handle themselves on the street, which is very different from handling uke in the dojo. It's a shame he is no longer teaching. I would like to attend a class and see for myself how he really is as a teacher.

[Nafis Zahir]

Seems strange to me that people would hold Seagal Sensei under such tough scrutiny though most of us here have not studied with him directly or indirectly but at the same time will not hold our own 'heads of organizations' to the same scrutiny.

You did notice that no one responded to this, didn't you? It's a very good point. Until you've trained with Seagal, you really don't know anything except was is presented to you. To some he may be a jerk, but to others he may be great. To each his own. If I ever get a chance to train with him, I would do it. Just because he's hard, doesn't make him a jerk.

[Ron Tisdale]

Hi David,

And to implant these kinds of seriously depraved images into that level of the public consciousness, through such a refined medium as the motion picture is seriously bad karma.

But with karma, it isn't up to *us* to visit it upon him is it? Personally, I think all the points you make are reasonable, without even referring to Seagal. Or at least being reasonably polite when doing so. I don't say this as a fan...just a casual observer.

Best,
Ron

[Maarten De Queecker]

You wouldn't be the only person to think so.

However, aikido is a tremendously powerful mode of subconscious communication. Seagal's films are a despicable use of that powerful tool and gift. It's just like Jim and Tammy Bakker or any other person who misuses The Bible to make money for themselves. It's evil. It's the equivalent of prostituting aikido, and his positition would equate to the pimp in that simile. I hate to see a great art used that way. And that is real life.

David
I think that this is really dependant on personal views. I have not yet seen any forms of "subconcious communication" in aikido, whatever that might be.

Why should one not be allowed to use something one is very proficient at-in this case: aikido- to earn some money, while at the same time recruit new members for the aikido family? If I'm not mistaken, a whole lot of Japanese masters do exactly the same: they travel around the world giving seminars, and people often have to pay a lot in order to attend. I'm even happy for them, because very few people actually manage to make their passion their main source of income.

"A great art" is, again, subjective. What we find in aikido, others may find in Judo, Tae Kwon Do, personal religion or even their daily job. Aikido is not some kind of be-all end-all religion/thingy. It's a martial art. The main focus should always be on the martial. I know dojos who don't spend a second on the spiritual side of aikido and choose to focus only on the techniques. I have also read about dojos incorporating christian elements and teachings in their aikido (mainly in the US). It's really up to the instructor, what his beliefs are, and what he finds useful for his students. However, I believe that as a student, the biggest part is up to you. You have to discover for yourself what is of use to you, and what isn't, and you won't necessarily discover that in aikido. It's all very subjective.

[David Orange]

You did notice that no one responded to this, didn't you?

I responded to your comment about holding heads of organizations responsible. I said it's a mistake. A very big mistake.

Until you've trained with Seagal, you really don't know anything except was is presented to you. To some he may be a jerk, but to others he may be great. To each his own. If I ever get a chance to train with him, I would do it. Just because he's hard, doesn't make him a jerk.

It's nothing about his training. I haven't commented on that. I've commented on the images he chooses to broadcast to the world, and his prostitution of aikido for personal gain. And the jerky image he presents of the aikidoka in his movies, which makes him seem like a jerk.

David

[David Orange]

But with karma, it isn't up to *us* to visit it upon him is it?

No...except maybe by not paying to see his flicks. Or billing him for the ones we do watch!!! :p

But I do feel a responsibility to denounce the misuse he makes of aikido. And I think the same of Chuck Norris' misuse of karate.

David

[David Orange]

I have not yet seen any forms of "subconcious communication" in aikido, whatever that might be.

What do you think it means when Sokaku Takeda says "The art of aiki is to overcome the opponent mentally, at a glance and win without fighting"?

When it's down to real life-and-death matters, aiki communicates deep to the would-be attacker's unconscious mind and weakens him from within. There is tremendous subconscious communication in many of the martial arts, but aikido contains a highly refined form of that if one can tap it through serious training.

Why should one not be allowed to use something one is very proficient at-in this case: aikido- to earn some money, while at the same time recruit new members for the aikido family? If I'm not mistaken, a whole lot of Japanese masters do exactly the same: they travel around the world giving seminars, and people often have to pay a lot in order to attend. I'm even happy for them, because very few people actually manage to make their passion their main source of income.

The way masters present the art respects the art. Seagal has prostituted the art for personal gain. If you don't see the difference in presenting aikido demonstrations and presenting gory images of violence and hate, for profit, I don't know how better to explain it to you. Read Stan Pranin's letter.

"A great art" is, again, subjective. What we find in aikido, others may find in Judo, Tae Kwon Do, personal religion or even their daily job. Aikido is not some kind of be-all end-all religion/thingy. It's a martial art. The main focus should always be on the martial. I know dojos who don't spend a second on the spiritual side of aikido and choose to focus only on the techniques.

But what dojo goes to such bloody lengths to pimp their art?

Someone earlier mentions Spencer Tracy and Jimmy Cagney as movie actors who had "misused" martial arts, but Jimmy Cagney was a judo black belt who I never saw misuse his art or misrepresent it or present it in such a sick light. Likewise with Spencer Tracy, of whom I'm aware of only one martial arts scene, in Bad Day at Black Rock and he just takes down a bully with some one-arm ju-jutsu. The Japanese, too, have quite a history of martial arts movies. But it's still considered low, low class to really prostitute the martial arts like Seagal does.

See, as I pointed out, The Challenge was a great movie (which Seagal, supposedly choreographed, but in which he did not appear). See the difference in that and in Seagal's much later Exit Wounds and you see the devolution into pure trash.

I have also read about dojos incorporating christian elements and teachings in their aikido (mainly in the US). It's really up to the instructor, what his beliefs are, and what he finds useful for his students. However, I believe that as a student, the biggest part is up to you.

It's not about his aikido training. It's how he sells aikido out for a dirty buck. It's low and unworthy.

David

[ninjaqutie]

Because their acting doesn't employ as deep a subconscious-to-subconscious communication capacity.... It's not that he makes atrocious movies, but that he so misuses the power.... This isn't so much about his acting but about what he chooses to portray and how he misuses aikido to do it.

Hhmm... again, I ask you; what about all the movies where they are doing drugs or using guns to murder people? Do they not influence others? They must also "misuse the power" by your definition. Murders in movies also portray just that.... murderers. Doesn't mean that once they are off the set they are scheming away on how to kill everyone.

So you would think just as well of O Sensei if you saw him smashing people's faces into mirrors or bathroom sinks? Not many ukes can take that.

As far as I know, classes are not held in a bathroom and there aren't sinks in the middle of a dojo.... Things in movies are meant to be as realistic as possible. When people get shot in a movie, are they truly shot? I don't think so. Otherwise, actors wouldn't be so quick to hop on board for an action movie.

The point is, if you despise him and his movies so much, then why do you watch them? If you haven't seen them, then you wouldn't be speaking of examples such as: this movie has this, this movie has that.

I'm not saying that what you say doesn't have any validity, as it does. Children should not watch certain things and that is the parent's responsibility. You however, are taking this to another level completley.

[Michael Hackett]

Mr. Orange,

Please don't misquote me...in my earlier post I referred to Cagney, Tracy and Carradine as actors who engendered interest in the martial arts through movies and did not characterize their portrayals as "misuse". The point I made was that Seagal Sensei created an interest in an uncommon martial art at the time and brought people into dojo to experience Aikido personally. In my personal opinion, creating the interest was a positive contribution and many would not have discovered Aikido (Seagal), Karate (Norris), Kung Fu (Carradine), Lee (Wing Chun/Jeet Kune Do), Judo (Cagney), or Jujutsu (Tracy) had it not been for the films they made. What I do say or write can create it's own controversy without being misquoted.

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

It's not about his aikido training. It's how he sells aikido out for a dirty buck. It's low and unworthy.

David

Gee, David... tell us how you really feel. I had written up a long, dispassionate reply which detailed the many factual errors in your comments, but unfortunately it got mistakenly deleted. After following the thread, I realized you didn't really deserve my time and effort, even though your comments go a long way to providing a negative view of a person that you know nothing about. I am not sure what you have accomplished in your life other than being able to look up and criticize those above you in the grander scheme of things, but, as it goes, you surely have managed to curdle my milk.

<rant>
You make it seem like your opinion has any real value, which it clearly does not. It is based completely on your inability to understand even the most basic elements of how Hollywood works, how Seagal Sensei views his role in both these films and in Hollywood. More importantly your opinion is devoid of balance as though you are not able to process any information that doesn't fit into your emotionally charged, child-like, temper-tantrum filled view of the world. You show that you do not have any real understanding of what Seagal Sensei is also well-know for, that being his promoting Buddhist precepts of love and compassion, a love for animals, to educate people on the damage being done to the environment and many, many other philanthropic endeavors in which he is highly involved. You paint a simplistic, nine year old's black and white view of a person with whom you have no personal knowledge of - one that clearly represents your black heart, and worse comes from your own, self-deluded ideals about how white the world should look. In short, GROW THE F UP!

Personally speaking, you seem like a jerk, :yuck: and more than just a bit. You should never be allowed to teach (anything) nor be allowed near anyone's children for fear that you will corrupt their hearts, minds and future ability to discern reality from fantasy. Most importantly, you truly need to go see a mental health professional before you implode and attempt to injure yourself.

</rant>

If you keep continue to vomit up your idiotic vitriol, I may just have to tell you how I really feel in my next post.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Once again:

Just a quick reminder that there are people here on AikiWeb who have trained and/or studied with the person in question in this thread.

Please take the time and effort to moderate the tone of your postings. The first rule of the AikiWeb Forums is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forum members with respect."

Thank you,

-- Jun

[David Orange]

If you keep continue to vomit up your idiotic vitriol, I may just have to tell you how I really feel in my next post.

If I continue to seem more and more of a jerk? Will it justify something more....what?

Ashley asked what about that all the people Seagal breaks up are all drug users or murderers? To put up these fantasy people with virtual fangs, then rip them to pieces also justifies that kind of mind in the real world: paint them evil; repeat. Paint them more evil; repeat. Until it is justified to do whatever one will to them.

It's the "whatever one will" that's way too over the top in Seagal's movies. You can't make money by poisoning people's minds and pay it back with Buddhist chants. And you can't abuse aikido without some comment from other people who have devoted large parts of their lives to the art.

But do tell me how you really feel.

David

[Eric Joyce]

Gee, David... tell us how you really feel. I had written up a long, dispassionate reply which detailed the many factual errors in your comments, but unfortunately it got mistakenly deleted. After following the thread, I realized you didn't really deserve my time and effort, even though your comments go a long way to providing a negative view of a person that you know nothing about. I am not sure what you have accomplished in your life other than being able to look up and criticize those above you in the grander scheme of things, but, as it goes, you surely have managed to curdle my milk.

<rant>
You make it seem like your opinion has any real value, which it clearly does not. It is based completely on your inability to understand even the most basic elements of how Hollywood works, how Seagal Sensei views his role in both these films and in Hollywood. More importantly your opinion is devoid of balance as though you are not able to process any information that doesn't fit into your emotionally charged, child-like, temper-tantrum filled view of the world. You show that you do not have any real understanding of what Seagal Sensei is also well-know for, that being his promoting Buddhist precepts of love and compassion, a love for animals, to educate people on the damage being done to the environment and many, many other philanthropic endeavors in which he is highly involved. You paint a simplistic, nine year old's black and white view of a person with whom you have no personal knowledge of - one that clearly represents your black heart, and worse comes from your own, self-deluded ideals about how white the world should look. In short, GROW THE F UP!

Personally speaking, you seem like a jerk, :yuck: and more than just a bit. You should never be allowed to teach (anything) nor be allowed near anyone's children for fear that you will corrupt their hearts, minds and future ability to discern reality from fantasy. Most importantly, you truly need to go see a mental health professional before you implode and attempt to injure yourself.

</rant>

If you keep continue to vomit up your idiotic vitriol, I may just have to tell you how I really feel in my next post.

Touché Shaun. :)

David,

I have never met Sensei Seagal, but from what I can see of his Aikido (not in his movies) but from various clips of his training and the documentary Beyond Thought, he seems like a teacher who really cares about the welfare of his students. He may or may not have an ego or attitude, I don't know...never met him. Like someone said before, his Aikido may not be for you. We shouldn't judge him based solely off movies or unverified internet rumors.

Now, back to training fellas.

[Marc Abrams]

If I continue to seem more and more of a jerk? Will it justify something more....what?

Ashley asked what about that all the people Seagal breaks up are all drug users or murderers? To put up these fantasy people with virtual fangs, then rip them to pieces also justifies that kind of mind in the real world: paint them evil; repeat. Paint them more evil; repeat. Until it is justified to do whatever one will to them.

It's the "whatever one will" that's way too over the top in Seagal's movies. You can't make money by poisoning people's minds and pay it back with Buddhist chants. And you can't abuse aikido without some comment from other people who have devoted large parts of their lives to the art.

But do tell me how you really feel.

David

David:

Do you remember how much it costs for Buddhist enlightenment these days ;) !

Marc Abrams

[Maarten De Queecker]

If I continue to seem more and more of a jerk? Will it justify something more....what?

Ashley asked what about that all the people Seagal breaks up are all drug users or murderers? To put up these fantasy people with virtual fangs, then rip them to pieces also justifies that kind of mind in the real world: paint them evil; repeat. Paint them more evil; repeat. Until it is justified to do whatever one will to them.

It's the "whatever one will" that's way too over the top in Seagal's movies. You can't make money by poisoning people's minds and pay it back with Buddhist chants. And you can't abuse aikido without some comment from other people who have devoted large parts of their lives to the art.

But do tell me how you really feel.

David

Just a question, I mean no offense, but are you a christian? Because you throw the word "evil" around a whole lot here.. That's what I meant by subjective: what is evil for you isn't necessarily evil to someone else.
As someone mentioned before, alas in a not so friendly tone, you seem to have a rather black vs. white kind of look on things; it seems that something is either good or evil for you. Don't forget that there is also a huge grey zone between those two opposites.

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

David:

Do you remember how much it costs for Buddhist enlightenment these days ;) !

Marc Abrams

As the saying goes, "To achieve enlightenment one only need to be rich enough to pay attention." Given that, I do believe that he may be $hit Out Of Luck...

[Michael Hackett]

You have to buy a ticket to see a movie and I imagine your TV set has a channel selector of some sort. If you don't buy the tickets or don't watch TV that you find offensive, perhaps the selection will change to something more your taste. That was my choice and I haven't seen any of Seagal Sensei's movies for several years. I think "Under Siege" was the last. So far I don't think I've endangered his rice bowl, but I don't think he or his portrayals are evil either. I don't know him at all, so I'm not entitled to an opinion concerning his character. His characters however are just silly and over-the-top for my tastes. His worst offense to me is that he just doesn't know how to wear a military beret properly - makes me grind my teeth each and every time, but that's just me.

[sammywhip]

I can't lie, I like his movies. They are hilarious, even though they aren't meant to be.

[David Orange]

Touché Shaun. :)

True ouch!:p

I have never met Sensei Seagal, but from what I can see of his Aikido (not in his movies) but from various clips of his training and the documentary Beyond Thought, he seems like a teacher who really cares about the welfare of his students.

Well, that's good, isn't it? Who would criticize that? I've only critiqued his movies, in agreement with Stan Pranin, though I'm sure Stan would never have gone so far as I have. But as far as "criticizing his aikido," that is necessary as far as he "uses" aikido in his movies. Or abuses. And one of the big abuses is the practice of dehumanizing the person he's going to rip to shreds. Much of the time, he represents a law officer and always "with attitude" that is also a bad role model to all those in LE and on its fringes. Even soldiers at war are required to treat their subjects with certain human dignities but Seagal justifies, then portrays a level of treatment reminiscent of the photos from Abu Ghraib. Shaun tells me I don't know how Hollywood works but I do know that Jackie Chan still does his own stunts and he doesn't have to abuse the great blessing he has recieved in his martial arts skills.

He may or may not have an ego or attitude, I don't know...never met him. Like someone said before, his Aikido may not be for you. We shouldn't judge him based solely off movies or unverified internet rumors.

Know, Eric. His aikido looks okay in a lot of ways. It's how he employs it that's a shame.

And I was around when all that bad blood developed between him and the Urqidez brothers and Gene LeBell and a bunch of old time bone crunchers. Those stories are not rumors.

Be safe out there.

David

[Marc Abrams]

True ouch!:p

Shaun tells me I don't know how Hollywood works but I do know that Jackie Chan still does his own stunts and he doesn't have to abuse the great blessing he has recieved in his martial arts skills.

And I was around when all that bad blood developed between him and the Urqidez brothers and Gene LeBell and a bunch of old time bone crunchers. Those stories are not rumors.

David

David:

I know how Hollywood works! Gene LeBell is actually a Lama and was kind enough to provide Steven Seagal with some true enlightenment :D !

Then of course, the disconnect between the fantasy images that are played upon in his movies met reality when Steven Seagal had a "nice" conversation with some Italian Mafia strongmen.

Marc Abrams

[David Orange]

David:

Do you remember how much it costs for Buddhist enlightenment these days ;) !

I was told it was "nothing." That's what I paid and that's what I have left. Go figure.

When I came back from Japan, a friend asked me, "Did you get everythign you went for?"

I thought about it and told him, "Everything and less."

David

[David Orange]

Just a question, I mean no offense, but are you a christian?

I will leave that for others to say.

Because you throw the word "evil" around a whole lot here.. That's what I meant by subjective: what is evil for you isn't necessarily evil to someone else.

And I'm saying O Sensei woud not smile on some of Steven's flicks.

As someone mentioned before, alas in a not so friendly tone, you seem to have a rather black vs. white kind of look on things; it seems that something is either good or evil for you. Don't forget that there is also a huge grey zone between those two opposites.

Not everything. But it's evil to misuse a great blessing. It's evil to profit from misuse of a great blessing.

IMO

David

[David Orange]

You have to buy a ticket to see a movie and I imagine your TV set has a channel selector of some sort.

Actually, only one channel works, now: the DVD channel. We get DVDs from the library and see stuff. No more Conan, since the digital switch. No Jimmy Fallon. No Letterman. My Sarah Palin quotient is way, way, down, but the library has this special section for movies way down below B grade, and it overfloweth with stuff like Dyin' ta Kill, and Killin' ta Live, and Hard to Whack and such and I sometimes peruse that. But that's neither here nor there.

If you don't buy the tickets or don't watch TV that you find offensive, perhaps the selection will change to something more your taste.

I don't watch purely for taste. That's why I sometimes listen to Rush Limbaugh--just to hear the grunting and say, "Tut-tut."

You gotta know what's floating out there amidst the sharks. It's called "Bottom-Feeders."

That was my choice and I haven't seen any of Seagal Sensei's movies for several years. I think "Under Siege" was the last. So far I don't think I've endangered his rice bowl, but I don't think he or his portrayals are evil either. I don't know him at all, so I'm not entitled to an opinion concerning his character. His characters however are just silly and over-the-top for my tastes. His worst offense to me is that he just doesn't know how to wear a military beret properly - makes me grind my teeth each and every time, but that's just me.

That and it seems to be a quite widespread opinion that he seems like ...well...a kind of an ABRUPT...sudden;;; u;h....what's that word for that kind of guy? Oh, yeah. Kind of a jerk. Some people say. But he does seem to carefully cultivate that image, so who am I to deny him?

As Faulkner said, "Don't deny me. Don't deny me."

David

[David Orange]

I can't lie, I like his movies. They are hilarious, even though they aren't meant to be.

Well, you know, when you get down to movies, that's a really great world and there is a great tradition of martial arts movies in both the east and the west. They have a great depth and you can see them on many levels. Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."

And the Chinese made Kid With The Golden Arm, Ninja Challenge, and all the Jackie Chan and Jet Li movies which may be less "realistic" but are deeper than Seagal's anti-superman ego-trip.

I was watching Fire Down Below with my wife and she said, "You look like that guy in that movie."

I was shocked. I said, "I look like Steven Seagal?"

She said, "No. That guy." pointing at Harry Dean Stanton.

"Oh," I said. "Okay."

It's better than looking like Seagal!!!:p

David

[AsimHanif]

Yes Nafis…I heard the crickets :-)
Regarding the thread all I’ll say is….if you don’t like the movies, don’t watch. If you don’t like the aikido, personality or character, don’t train with him. And if you’re willing to single out someone by name who you don’t have any direct (reality not tv), intimate contact with please have the courage to name those who you do have contact with and you know are of questionable character. Of course if you do that you may not get rank or title but oh well….
This Seagal bashing is just….old.

[dps]

Well, you know, when you get down to movies, that's a really great world and there is a great tradition of martial arts movies in both the east and the west. They have a great depth and you can see them on many levels. Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."


How about movies like "The Godfather", "Schindler's List", "Saving Private Ryan"?

David

[mrjam2jab]

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

If i recall correctly...he was killed off in the first 5 minutes of the ED...does that really count as a Seagal movie?...:p

[gdandscompserv]

Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."
David,
Are you suggesting that feudalism in Japan was not violent?:eek:

[rdavid445]

Movies like Shogun's Executioner and Lone Wolf and Cub, Yojimbo and those kinds of things created a world that reflected ancient Japan and always carried strong moral content. And they didn't have to over-gorify the violence in a vain attempt for "realism" that is far, far, crazily far from "realistic."

David

I'm sorry, my man, but have you ever seen Lone Wolf and Cub before? They are, quite possibly, the most needlessly gory samurai (chanbara) films in existence. Literally every person who dies does so in one of the most horrific ways possible, and it's not for realism's sake. Though I'm no expert, I'm sure that there has never been a samurai in the history of Japan who has the bodycount that Ogami Itto does. Also, does it matter to you that Itto himself claims in all of those movies to be "on the road to hell", living a "life of pure evil"? Not to mention the fact that the films are predicated on the subject of revenge, which, from a moral and ethical standpoint, is repugnant.

Also, Yojimbo is the story of a man that uses his wits and killing talents to pit two groups of people together for his own personal monetary gain. What a paragon of martial righteousness.

That being said, I'm able take these films for what they are: entertainment. I love 'em. But if there was ever a person who was, by your meter, bastardizing martial arts (koryu bujutsu) for money, then you need look no further than Wakayama Tomisabro, Shintaro Katsu, and the Japanese film culture.

[David Orange]

I'm sorry, my man, but have you ever seen Lone Wolf and Cub before? They are, quite possibly, the most needlessly gory samurai (chanbara) films in existence. Literally every person who dies does so in one of the most horrific ways possible, and it's not for realism's sake.

And this is what Seagal based his whole approach on. He prostituted that and took out what meaning there was in it. Now it's just the gore. No moral basis at all....or a very flimsy moral basis that's unironically twisted.

That being said, I'm able take these films for what they are: entertainment. I love 'em. But if there was ever a person who was, by your meter, bastardizing martial arts (koryu bujutsu) for money, then you need look no further than Wakayama Tomisabro, Shintaro Katsu, and the Japanese film culture.

I wish we could look no lower than that, too. But when that stuff goes into the sewer....it meets movies like Marked for Death...etc.

David

[David Orange]

David,
Are you suggesting that feudalism in Japan was not violent?:eek:

No. Just that it was nice violence.

No, of course not.

Those movies I mentioned were post-Meiji representations of Edo periods and further back and they were really about the heritage of the sword. They were made to show Japanese their roots, more or less: these are the times you came from. The figures in these movies are like Jefferson and Davie Crocket and Benjamin Franklin and such for the Japanese. All carrying swords. The action in them is exagerated like The Alamo with Fess Parker. The gore of the old chanbara films was always a lesson about the sword. You shouldn't think that sword fights are banging swords together: a sword fight is cutting people up. You can't make a movie about sushi without showing some slicing...you can't make a movie about a butcher without showing some cows being cut up. And to make a movie about swords, there will be blood.

But O Sensei's aikido was intended to powerfully thrust into the world as a statement for and an expression of peace. And Love.

I don't believe that "aiki is love" but I do believe that aikido is a pure and powerful thing created by Morihei Ueshiba to make that statement of peace. The scroll he gave my teacher was daito ryu. The aikido he created was intended to be something different: a handmade sword for peace in the world.

So the nature of aikido and how it is used is certainly as important as the nature and depiction of the katana, both as an instrument of death and protection and as a shaper of a society.

To show the nature of the katana, you must show the cutting. But to show the nature of aikido, you must show a sword of a much finer nature and it must not be covered with gore and wielded with taunts and a sneer.

Seagal has shown us Morihei Ueshiba's sword of love used for the vilest purpose of making Seagal wealthy and famous. In the process, he defames Morihei's sword and perpetuates the mentality that Morihei intended to cut through. That's how he misuses aikido using it to create what it was intended to heal.

That's what I really mean and that is why I protest Seagal's flicks.

Thanks.

David

[Suru]

Well, everyone has an ego; I don't think anyone is above the law in that regard. Personally, though, looking at Steven Seagal's life and career, its hard to kill this suspicion that ego was his main motivating drive. This is just my opinion; I hope I'm not marked for death by any of Seagal's students or fans, who are out for justice for their great hero. I know as an aikido instructor Seagal has taught a great number of aikidoka, and if I were to be under siege by any number of them, man, I'd be on deadly ground. ... uh... Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Damnit, I knew I shouldn't have made the executive decision to try to do them in chronological order! I don't even know how I was going to deal with "The Glimmer Man," constructing a clever double entendre with that would really require some creative fire, uh.... down below...

This is a really entertaining post, Sy. I think I've seen all those, if Dark Territory involves a 10 year old girl utilizing nikkyo on a bad guy. Some say the greatest actors can play roles that are totally different. I don't know whether Seagal can, but he doesn't. However, there is something really different and intriguing to me about his role(s). He's got this extreme masculinity going on, all the while with some sort of effeminate grace. I have just begun my second viewing of The Glimmer Man, which I got in the mail from Netflix today. Although often solo in his movies, he and Keenan Ivory Wayans as homicide partners surprisingly mesh pretty well. Actually, in Under Siege he partners up with Erika Eleniak, but that's all downhill after the cake scene ;-)

Anyway, I think it would be exciting to train with Seagal Sensei someday, and if the narcissism is so thick in the air that I can't breathe, that will be it. Some things I knock before I try, but this one I would go into with as little prejudgment as possible.

Drew

[Misogi-no-Gyo]

But O Sensei's aikido was intended to powerfully thrust into the world as a statement for and an expression of peace. And Love.And sometimes, demonstrating the depths that humans can sink to can go a long way towards creating a consciousness of need which will move people to action, action which will bring about the revolution of peace about which you speak. Without action there really is no peace at all.

I don't believe that "aiki is love" but I do believe that aikido is a pure and powerful thing created by Morihei Ueshiba to make that statement of peace. The scroll he gave my teacher was daito ryu. The aikido he created was intended to be something different: a handmade sword for peace in the world.

So the nature of aikido and how it is used is certainly as important as the nature and depiction of the katana, both as an instrument of death and protection and as a shaper of a society.

To show the nature of the katana, you must show the cutting. But to show the nature of aikido, you must show a sword of a much finer nature and it must not be covered with gore and wielded with taunts and a sneer.Where is any evidence that O-Sensei would support this ridiculously simple perversion of Aiki is love. You have already stated you don't believe something that we have all heard him say via interviews and films. So as you reject what the founder, himself says Aikido is, you want people to believe that you have any idea about his art. Truthfully speaking, you don't even have your own reasons for your statements. You are using your own twisted views of Aikido as your defense for your statements. That is simply a pathetic excuse, like what the religious sycophants use to defend blowing up abortion doctors - something I have a feeling you probably support, too.

Seagal has shown us Morihei Ueshiba's sword of love used for the vilest purpose of making Seagal wealthy and famous. In the process, he defames Morihei's sword and perpetuates the mentality that Morihei intended to cut through. That's how he misuses aikido using it to create what it was intended to heal.This is probably the single most unsupported point posted here on AikiWeb. You stand there on your rickety soapbox preaching away your religious rant about what the founder wanted for the world without offering anything to back up your twisted, perverted, negatively charged, witless diatribe.

That's what I really mean and that is why I protest Seagal's flicks.Protest? You mean rant! You sit behind a keyboard and have done absolutely nothing to bring about the change you claim to defend.

Have you written his production company and communicated your feelings?
Have you contacted anyone in Hollywood to communicate you opinions and request a change?
Have you written a movie and submitted it with Seagal Sensei (someone that you already agree has a great power to effect the world's subconsciousness) in mind?
Have you contacted Seagal Sensei directly?

No... No... No... and No...

Why? because you are a coward and you are so declared by using your own standards exemplified here on AikiWeb. You have failed to stand up and defend your own principles. Instead you wave O-Sensei's flag while at the same time changing its colors to suit your own misaligned inaction. You are the coward you ineffectively slashes about with your plastic toy sword trying to do damage to anyone standing within striking distance of the soapbox castle which you claim to defend in the name of some Holy War of Justice Is that the name you have chosen for your soon to be filmed autobiography?

You claim some high moral ground upon which you preach down your rants of hate. The truth is you are a coward who stand in a hole, actually a latrine that you have dug for yourself, and worse for the aikido community at large - and this all in the name of the founder, Morihei Ueshiba.

Get a life and stand up for yourself before you come out and claim to stand up for the higher principles of O-Sensei's Aikido, a thing about which you obviously know nothing.

Oh, and was that you who ran out screaming after getting rebuffed for reaching your hand under the wall into my bathroom stall when at the airport down in AL? Why don't you come out of the closet already, or is that where you keep your soapbox when not standing on it?

lastly, is seems totally lost upon you that via your own twisted logic used here in this thread that you would be considered EVIL. You have chosen to continue to unnecessarily malign people to serve your own good, when you could just as easily choose to do something positive to bring about the betterment of others. As such you would be relegated to hell, an imaginary place made up by and for the self-righteous and self deluted, which you have proven yourself to be... "a bit at least"

Oh, and in the name of Stan Baker.... "Who your teacher?"

.

[David Orange]

And sometimes, demonstrating the depths that humans can sink to can go a long way towards creating a consciousness of need which will move people to action, action which will bring about the revolution of peace about which you speak. Without action there really is no peace at all.

And if you can pocket a million bucks in the process of hyping violence to promote peace...why not, huh?

You can rationalize prostitution but it's hard to claim it's not still prostitution when you're haggling so hard about the price!

...the nature of aikido and how it is used is certainly as important as the nature and depiction of the katana, both as an instrument of death and protection and as a shaper of a society.

Where is any evidence that O-Sensei would support this ridiculously simple perversion of Aiki is love.

I'm sure he'd rather see Seagal gouging people's eyes out as the final expression of his "art of peace," huh?

You have already stated you don't believe something that we have all heard him say via interviews and films. So as you reject what the founder, himself says Aikido is, you want people to believe that you have any idea about his art.

I don't believe that "love" is the technical definition of "aiki" because people like Sagawa and Horikawa make it clear that they are talking about a technical skill. I do believe that "aikido"--the creation of Morihei Ueshiba--is fundamentally an expression of his love for humanity and the universe. He didn't pass that gift to you so that you could use it to unclog your toilet.

Truthfully speaking, you don't even have your own reasons for your statements. You are using your own twisted views of Aikido as your defense for your statements.

Twisted how, Shaun? I use aikido to serve the people--not to serve myself. I don't make money off it,even by teaching--much less by pimping it out in graphic pornoviolence.

That is simply a pathetic excuse, like what the religious sycophants use to defend blowing up abortion doctors - something I have a feeling you probably support, too.

Shows how poor your perception is shaun. I'm don't beieve Jesus would support blowing up abortion doctors or that he would condemn them or the women who need them. Obviously, what's in that hage atama of yours doesn't have much connection to reality, huh?

This is probably the single most unsupported point posted here on AikiWeb. You stand there on your rickety soapbox preaching away your religious rant about what the founder wanted for the world without offering anything to back up your twisted, perverted, negatively charged, witless diatribe.

So you do think that O Sensei wanted us to portray aikido as Seagal shows it in Hard to Kill and Marked for Death? He eschewed such violent fantasizing because the peace of aikido is not generated by working up that kind of sick, violent fantasy in the mind. That just generates more sickness. And someone who profits by that is on a par with a crack dealer, in my book.

Protest? You mean rant! You sit behind a keyboard and have done absolutely nothing to bring about the change you claim to defend.

I just do right aikido and never pimp it out.

Have you written his production company and communicated your feelings?
Have you contacted anyone in Hollywood to communicate you opinions and request a change?
Have you written a movie and submitted it with Seagal Sensei (someone that you already agree has a great power to effect the world's subconsciousness) in mind?
Have you contacted Seagal Sensei directly?

No... No... No... and No...

Why?

I did once approach a pimp who was manhandling a woman and got the pimp and his brother both after me. I have learned that it's no use to come between a pimp and his girls. Ergo...no, I haven't made any overtures as you suggested. It's enough just say that Seagal has misused aikido. And that he seems to cultivate an image as a jerk. IMHO.

...you are a coward and you are so declared by using your own standards exemplified here on AikiWeb. You have failed to stand up and defend your own principles.

You funny, boy. I have continually defended my principles. You want to call me "a coward" via keyboard...seems to me that's the very definition of cowardice.

Instead you wave O-Sensei's flag while at the same time changing its colors to suit your own misaligned inaction.

What???

That doesn't even make Bizarro sense, Shaun. You want to try that again?

You are the coward you ineffectively slashes about with your plastic toy sword trying to do damage to anyone standing within striking distance of the soapbox castle which you claim to defend in the name of some Holy War of Justice Is that the name you have chosen for your soon to be filmed autobiography?

You really are funny, dude. I have no war to prosecute. I'm just saying and will continue to say that Steven Seagal's movies are a prostitution of aikido and that using that tool of peace to make money off violence, without concern for the effect that those images have on the world is, yes, indeed, as evil as selling crack or meth to kids. I'll stand on that one all day and night.

You claim some high moral ground upon which you preach down your rants of hate.

I don't hate Seagal. I really pity him. I was a big fan of some of the super cool Chinese movies out in the early 80s, stuff like "Kid With the Golden Arm" and "Ninja Challenge". When Above the Law came out, my friends and I thought that this might be the beginning of an age of good American movies to match those Chinese movies. But alas: earwax.

The truth is you are a coward who stand in a hole, actually a latrine that you have dug for yourself, and worse for the aikido community at large - and this all in the name of the founder, Morihei Ueshiba.

Let's see, now...that's three times you've called me a coward from behind a keyboard but I don't see any action from you. Just talk.

But Lao Tzu does say "Accept disgrace willingly," so I don't mind a guy like you nipping at my heels. "The greatest good is like water. It flows in places men reject, and so is like the tao."

I'll be happy to remain in places you reject.

Get a life and stand up for yourself before you come out and claim to stand up for the higher principles of O-Sensei's Aikido, a thing about which you obviously know nothing.

I've stood for myself. I've felt no force to move me, so what's your beef? You're the one making impotent cries. You stand up for yourself.

Oh, and was that you who ran out screaming after getting rebuffed for reaching your hand under the wall into my bathroom stall when at the airport down in AL? Why don't you come out of the closet already, or is that where you keep your soapbox when not standing on it?

Bring your feelings on out, Shaun. We see what's in your closet here, don't we? Not at all what one would expect from seeing your fierce profile pic. You're really a pretty funny guy!

lastly, is seems totally lost upon you that via your own twisted logic used here in this thread that you would be considered EVIL. You have chosen to continue to unnecessarily malign people to serve your own good, when you could just as easily choose to do something positive to bring about the betterment of others.

I've tried to be clear that I'm not maligning Steven Seagal (except to agree that he does 'seem' like a jerk, or seems to cultivate the image of a jerk). I'm maligning his movies and his choice to abuse aikido for profit. I'm not saying he's going to hell for it. Many people do evil things and still, presumably, enter paradise. But I don't think his misuse of aikido and violent imagery will make that easier for him.

As such you would be relegated to hell, an imaginary place made up by and for the self-righteous and self deluted, which you have proven yourself to be... "a bit at least"

Nice qualification, there.

[QUOTE=Shaun Ravens;238364]Oh, and in the name of Stan Baker.... "Who your teacher?"

As you told someone...it's on my profile. Look it up.

Cheers, Henny!

David

[akiy]

Thread closed due to personal attacks and discussions.

-- Jun

[dps]

I understand that Seagal Sensei is more of a public figure due to his movies. However, I do have to wonder were it another 7th Dan Aikido instructor being unnecessarily torn apart based completely on the absence of any factual material or even personal interaction, would the thread been allowed to proceed this far.

The difference between Seagal and "another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" is that Seagal made a choice and actively sought to be a star in movies, to become a public figure. How many other "7th Dan Aikido instructors" have sought out or done this.

The people criticizing him paid to see some of his movies and thus Seagal benefited monetarily from them and because of this and his status as a public figure he is a fair target of criticism by these people. Whereas" another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" not being a movie star and public figure would not be.

David

[Rob Watson]

The difference between Seagal and "another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" is that Seagal made a choice and actively sought to be a star in movies, to become a public figure. How many other "7th Dan Aikido instructors" have sought out or done this.

The people criticizing him paid to see some of his movies and thus Seagal benefited monetarily from them and because of this and his status as a public figure he is a fair target of criticism by these people. Whereas" another 7th Dan Aikido instructor" not being a movie star and public figure would not be.

David

Let's not confuse the man and the movie. When under contract with a studio ones soul tends to get sucked out a bit.