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TEARO
08-15-2009, 12:33 AM
Why is it called Shihonage?Can you use it to throw a person in Four directions?

I know Shihonage means four direction throws but I don't see the four directions!

Shadowfax
08-15-2009, 06:55 AM
Heiney Sensei just explained this one to us last week... lets see if I get it right.

You have forward and back as you enter and pivot to pass under Uke's arm.
You have up and down as you raise Ukes arm and throw him.:D

Forward,backward, up, Down... four directions.

dps
08-15-2009, 07:19 AM
Why is it called Shihonage?Can you use it to throw a person in Four directions?

I know Shihonage means four direction throws but I don't see the four directions!
Shiho nage comes from shiho giri or four direction cut.
When doing shiho giri with a bokken you are practicing turning to receive attacks from four different attackers from four different directions.

In this video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs157f6dlXs)
you will see zengo giri ( two direction cut), shiho giri (four direction cut) and happo giri ( eight direction cut) with the bokken.

In shiho nage you should do the same but instead of a bokken you are use the four different attacking ukes.

David

eyrie
08-15-2009, 07:36 AM
Forward,backward, up, Down... four directions. It's the same 4 directions as shiho giri as David explained, but NOT as he explained in terms of 4 different attackers.

Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing... ;)

Erick Mead
08-15-2009, 07:50 AM
Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing... ;)I agree with this description. The mechanics of what is happening tracks the cross-wise motions of happo undo to produce smooth elliptical curves of entry and throw, as with the Trammel of Archimedes:
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/e/d/edwin222/Gifs/ellipsedevice.gif

dps
08-15-2009, 08:18 AM
It's the same 4 directions as shiho giri as David explained, but NOT as he explained in terms of 4 different attackers.

Essentially, you can throw (the same) uke in the opposite direction of the attack, i.e. behind him, in the same direction as the attack, or to either side of the attack (from the same side that you are on).

In actuality, it can be in *any* direction... probably easier to show than explain in writing... ;)

It is also used to practice turning to receive another attack from another direction after the throw of the first attack because your attention should not be on the person you have just thrown but possible attacks from other directions.

None of the techniques of Aikido are practice to do just one thing. When practicing a technique you are practicing multple skills.

David

Shadowfax
08-15-2009, 12:49 PM
ah yeah that is what she did tell us. Thanks for the reminder. :D

Suru
08-15-2009, 02:14 PM
Since I analyzed the words, "four-direction throw," I have seen it as facing the four right-angle directions (N, E, S, W) during the technique, along with every other circular direction in-between. As far as what I hear Mary Heiny Sensei said, that is a new way to look at it for me because I think back to the three-dimensional cross. This is a symbol the Founder speaks about. In "The Secrets of Aikido," John Stevens Sensei parallels shihonage and gratitude; perhaps he means we should offer thanks in every direction instead of taking life for granted.

Drew

eyrie
08-15-2009, 06:31 PM
your attention should not be on the person you have just thrown but possible attacks from other directions. I'd partially agree with this, but not with the argument and logic of how you arrived at this conclusion. It would be accurate to say that your primary focus should always be on the immediate threat, while your peripheral awareness should be on potential secondary and tertiary threats.

It is also used to practice turning to receive another attack from another direction after the throw of the first attack... Sure, it *could* be used for that purpose, but the argument is akin to the old debate of the functional purpose of Naihanchi (a Karate kata). You appear to be drawing the same conclusion as many have done - that the function of the kata (or in this case waza) is based on the lines of embusen; i.e. used for fighting with your back against a wall, or whilst standing on a dyke in the middle of a paddy field, or defending the King on the steps of the castle. It simply isn't... *could* be used, is not the same as why a technique is named as such.

TEARO
08-15-2009, 08:27 PM
Thank you guys for the help!

rob_liberti
08-15-2009, 09:56 PM
I agree.

4 directions is as good as 8 directions which really means ANY direction. I've also seen jujitsu folks start shihonage the same way and have it result in 4 different (devastating) endings.

When I thought driving power from thrusting from the hips was critical, I thought that the most helpful way to get beginners to think about it is to have nage be as SW corner, and uke be at the NW corner. Then as nage thrusts and then follows in a NE direction, uke lifts themselves up and starts pivoting (which nage continues to follow) such that they (the uke) start to fall in a SE direction to the SE corner, landing the pivoted nage in the NE corner. So the 4 directions are nage orientation from facing NE to SW (and floor), and uke orientation from facing SE to NW (and ceiling).

Now, I would say I do something entirely different, which does not depend on driving from hips or following (but I still think following people into themselves is a valuable skill to learn).

Rob

thisisnotreal
08-21-2009, 12:20 AM
Ellis wrote: (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16657)
And in post #14, someone wants to write: "Shihonage is a manifestation of using the ground to effect aikiage and aikisage in one circle. You transfer power in spirals up the legs through the hara, using windings of ground force, etc." (I just made that up -- and I don't know what it means). What I suggest is that the writer starts a NEW thread in the Internal Strength section, with a preface,

Well I found this here thread...and I was wondering if what you say is legit. it has a strange kind of ring to it. is it a hint?
cheers,
Josh

Aikilove
08-21-2009, 05:06 AM
The late Saito Morihiro Sensei used to explain shihonage and kotegaeshi with the sword.

In the clip (0.00 - 0.40) you find his usual display of shihonage's principle of being able to throw someone in 4 directions (and therefore 8, 16, 32... ad infinitum).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-Hf6brsuE&feature=related

Coincidentally Daito Ryu has the same throw but call it gohonage (5 directional throw) where the directions are north, south, east, west, and the added direction of "on the spot - i.e. where they (or you) are standing)".

For me it is also about training how to move freely in any direction as the situation demands it.

/J

mjhacker
08-24-2009, 01:35 AM
四方 (shiho) is a typically poetic way of saying "every direction" rather than merely 4 directions.

phitruong
08-24-2009, 06:59 AM
every time i heard folks mention that shihonage is the 4-direction throw, i cringed. i believed in Asian language, the literal translation is four-corners of the world. its meaning really is "around the world", i.e. you are moving in a full circle. personally, i believed it's not about uke, but it's about nage. then again, i am low on the totem pole, so what do i know? ;)

eyrie
08-24-2009, 07:00 PM
Phi... NOW you're getting into ancient Chinese cosmology! ;)

Adam Huss
08-30-2009, 08:47 PM
As was mentioned before, Shihonage translates as 4-direction throw but insinuates all directions. I believe there is a video by two married instructors with the surname of Krane (spelling?) who spend a bit of time displaying through some technique how shi'te can throw uke in a bunch of different directions from a single (the same) angle of attack. I thought it was a pretty neat way of physically displaying the "all direction" attribute of shihonage. If I can find the video I will post the proper names of the instructors, their affiliation, and the name of the video.
cheers,
-A

sswam
07-18-2015, 08:54 PM
every time i heard folks mention that shihonage is the 4-direction throw, i cringed. i believed in Asian language, the literal translation is four-corners of the world. its meaning really is "around the world", i.e. you are moving in a full circle. personally, i believed it's not about uke, but it's about nage. then again, i am low on the totem pole, so what do i know? ;)

This has the ring of truth to it.

rugwithlegs
07-19-2015, 07:46 AM
Same as in English, the world "News" is from North East West South, the four corners of the globe but really means information and stories gathered from everywhere instead of exactly North Pole, exactly South Pole.

I do have a drill I like to play with. Put either four or eight sticky notes in a big circle, and stand in the middle of the circle. Throw your Uke, all attacking with the same arm, with you keeping the same foot forward, to different points on your circle. Return to the center each time, the goal is to train being able to throw Uke where you want them to land. Shihonage Ura throws Uke the direction they attacked from, Omote throws them in the same direction they were traveling (Kihon basics - the bigger the opening movement, the more of an angle). 90 degrees is a breakfall. There are several basic forms of Shihonage that some teachers identified, and they all have their trajectories. As Shihonage can be damaging, I tend to start someone new to this drill with Iriminage or Tenchinage instead.

JP3
07-19-2015, 11:30 AM
Yet another way to explain shihonage is to change the initial initial translation from 4-direction throw to throwing in 4 directions. Explained more, taking uke's balance sequentially in 4 different directions with the last being terminal (not dead, but the gake, execution) of the throw.

Neat thing is to watch beginners learn this throw and they almost always try to turn it into "Sanhonage," meaning they leave out one of the off-balancing directions, usually the "Up" one.

Really nasty variation is the 3-quarter backstep away to uke's side instead of the forward step to uke's back and then the downward cut of the hands for the typical shihonage throw. We call that tenkai kotegaeshi or kotekujiki. Nasty bit of business that ends up with a (if you are practicing and not trying to maim someone) a nifty 3 way submission lock at wrist, elbow and shoulder.

JW
07-21-2015, 12:44 AM
Same as in English, the world "News" is from North East West South

Where did you hear that? It's not true according to my dictionary (which says the word comes from the Middle English plural word for new things, "newis").

Anyway I like the drill. The uke all come from the same direction initially? As in, there is a line of uke that all take turns attacking from the direction of a certain point on the circle?

You could have it so that if an uke lands at a sticky note, he removes it as he leaves, so that the nage has to continue until he hits all the targets.

rugwithlegs
07-21-2015, 10:43 PM
I stand corrected, I heard this years ago and was told it for true. I remember a book from pre-Internet days saying the same thing. Dozens of sites calling this an old wives' stale.

If I had referred to the Four Corners of the Globe, the idea would still apply as really this is another way of saying everywhere. News is an achronym for the four compass points, but the four compass points are not the source for News according to a dozen websites.

Many variations on the drill - can do just kuzushi to the compass points, or I have had someone walking around the circle randomly and I set up a technique to use Uke as a human shield. The marks are just to stop me from cheating. I like your idea.

Most basic, a line of uke coming from zero thrown to 45, 90, 135, 180, all the way to 360. I've done it with just one Uke, but it takes more time. For fun, have the Uke stand where they land - can you miss the other people? For a variation, instead of hitting all the marks, penalize yourself for every time you or your partner hit one. Then, have a regular class, bodies everywhere, and keep the same penalties. It's just mat awareness, and awareness of the direction a basic technique moves Uke in. Have fun, thanks for catching me.

Walter Martindale
07-22-2015, 07:18 AM
A bit OT, but then there's the World Series (baseball), which is not a World Championship of people from all over the world, but a professional baseball championship that (AIUI) takes its name from the New York World newspaper, the original sponsor of the trophy.

GMaroda
07-22-2015, 09:34 AM
A bit OT, but then there's the World Series (baseball), which is not a World Championship of people from all over the world, but a professional baseball championship that (AIUI) takes its name from the New York World newspaper, the original sponsor of the trophy.

Which also isn't true. One journalist made that claim, without proof, and it got spread.

Man! Folk etymologies suck! :)

All this (shihonage, news, world series) does lead me to remember not to think of names too rigidly. I could see how keeping to one definition, particular of a translation from a foreign language, could lead one to discount other possibilities. I'm not thinking of anything in particular, just a general admonishment to myself.

Shadowfax
07-22-2015, 04:51 PM
Not much point in reading a lot into the name of one technique, when the names of several others translate as one, two ,three and four and there are dozens of varieties simply lumped under the single name kokyunage.

rugwithlegs
07-22-2015, 08:37 PM
Well, we're off topic now but I like this topic better anyway. In terms of falling in and out of myth, I think martial arts in general subscribe heavily to this.

An old post: http://john-hillson.blogspot.com/2013/12/turtle-kung-fu-lost-in-martial-metaphor.html

The names in Aikido have a history that changes with every organization if not every teacher. Ikkyo is not actually used by every association. Ikkajo from Daito Ryu is actually a collection of two dozen individually named techniques. Omote and Ura are old terms but seem to change all the time in their use. I am told this is an issue that native Japanese speakers don't have, just monolinguists like me trying to apply set rules to a foreign language.

My Sensei made a definite distinction between Morote Dori Kokyu Ho and Sokumen Iriminage; now they both get called Kokyunage in my new dojo. The Saito Sensei book on Kokyunage is largely what I've come to call Sokumen Iriminage, Shomen Ate, Udekimenage, Tenchinage and a few others. Kokyunage is a bit of a pet peeve as it is so widely applied sometimes that it is nearly meaningless. Why is Kote Hineri now Sankyo, Kote Mawashi is Nikyo, but Kote Gaeshi was never given a number? Why do we have technique number 1-5 or 6, but the technique explicitly called "10" is not part of the series? My own little theory is that our language communicates more about lineage and allegiance than technical information.

In looking into the history of a name or the use of a name, some very fascinating bits of information come out. I understand O Sensei used many metaphors and his language was quite dense. Difficult to understand, and any understanding I ever had deserves to be taken with some salt, but this is our art and our history. I like to explore the names.

More value to training, but working on understanding has some value too.

robin_jet_alt
07-22-2015, 10:02 PM
Why do we have technique number 1-5 or 6, but the technique explicitly called "10" is not part of the series?

Um, what? If you are talking about jujinage I will facepalm, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that I'm missing something.

rugwithlegs
07-22-2015, 11:22 PM
Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I am merely giving myself permission to ask if I missed something.

The Daito Ryu name is Karaminage, O Sensei didn't use it. Karaminage is part of the Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo - some schools do call Juji a variation on Ikkyo (which the other "Kyo" techniques are, and some keep them separate. There are only five kata named by numbers in Daito Ryu (Ikkajo to Gokajo) but some Aikido people do have a Rokkyo and some claim numbers all the way to ten, though not involving Jujigarami. Most of the core techniques can be pins, throws, koshinage, atemi Waza and kansetsu Waza, and Jujigarami fits this bill.

My own teacher used Jujigarami, which implied he did not exclusively consider it a throw. The one translation of O Sensei's lectures showed a horizontal line representing earth, and a vertical line meaning heaven, and that raised the possibility for me that the Ju cross could be one of his symbols for the unity of Heaven and Earth, so did he think Tenchinage and Jujinage had any connection? Also, if you do a Morote Dori or a two handed ushiro attack, the top hand as you circle will be Ikkyo to Yonkyo, the bottom hand will be Kotegaeshi/Shihonage, and as you transition between the horizontal and vertical kuzushi techniques, there is Jujigarami - it is related to both groups of techniques. Every time you circle, the hands change and Jujigarami appears again. And yes, it is still a number and we use numbers in our technical designations, and does that mean anything?

Yes, I have been told that Juji just means cross, same as it is used in Shotokan karate. It implies a very pedantic and simple translation of a man who was known for religious imagery in his teaching and for difficult to comprehend lectures. The name might not even be from O Sensei, maybe from his students so it could be just the obvious answer now. Were the names set, No, if they were we'd all be using the same language and we're not.

I give myself permission to wonder if the obvious one-note answer is all there is to the name. O Sensei died before I was born, so I never had the chance to ask him. It's most important to just practice, but I like to stretch my understanding off the mat.

robin_jet_alt
07-23-2015, 02:08 AM
Well, as a J > E translator, I never think of the word Juji as having anything to do with the number 10. It is simply a word for cross, which is derived from the shape of the kanji for the number 10. You will find it in such terms as jujika - crucifix and jujiro - 4-way intersection, neither of which have anything to do with the number 10. Given that, it is pretty clear that the name is just a description of the crossed position of the arms. Whether it is garami - entanglement, or nage - throw is not particularly important, in my view.

I honestly wouldn't read much into the names of techniques. They seem to be descriptions more than names, and of course, different people describe them differently.

rugwithlegs
07-23-2015, 01:36 PM
Thanks for the examples. I do not claim any expertise in Japanese.

Chiba Sensei used the cross shape to call what I learned as Udekimenage and Tenbinage as Jujinage. Some names are overused, some are like you said used differently from one association to the next. The larger issue then becomes how do we communicate effectively outside of our own dojo.

The names are descriptive sometimes, and sometimes not - what does Ikkyo describe?

As an aside, the Chinese Art of Baguazhang - the character for 8 resembles the distinctive footwork for fast changes of direction, and is also thought to refer to the 8 trigrams of the Yi Jing. In asking a teacher which it is, I can be told the correct answer is one or the other, both, or neither.

I don't stress about the names much, but I like coming across new ideas.

Any insights on the rest of the questions?

JW
07-23-2015, 02:53 PM
Well people like to whimsically use names to say one thing while referring loosely to another. It's a poetry that is part of what makes culture be alive I think. Bagua explicitly means "eight trigrams" (referring to the diagrams). Thinking about the shape of the character for eight to add a layer of meaning I think is just whimsy. (Doesn't make it untrue, just whimsical, and not the fundamental meaning.)

Omote and ura actually have a meaning in the Japanese language. That meaning can directly apply to how martial techniques are understood by a person. But using those terms to refer to 2 variations of technique is just whimsical. It really means that there is a deeper, more important, and kind of hidden meaning in martial arts technique, but it's just kind of cute to have one of the variations (especially if it goes around the back) be referred to as ura. If I understand correctly.

I also wonder how the specific techniques from ikkajo, nikkajo etc got picked to take on those names. For instance the old name robuse is a better name for ikkyo I think. But in the end, I hope by design, it actually works out because the series of numbered techniques starting with ikkyo actually do form a series that progress in a specific, logical way.

And lastly-- I know "kokyunage" is not that useful as a term in that it is too nonspecific. But, I think it is a good term in that it basically means an applied throw where you use kokyu (rather than a training form to develop skills like kokyu). So from that point of view it is a term for "real" aiki throws-- so in that case we should consider them the crowning achievement of our training...

observer
08-24-2015, 03:04 AM
With full respect, all the explanations do not make much sense. In my opinion, the number 4 in the name of the technique represents 4 sides of the world. It means full turn under an opponent hand.