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rob_liberti
08-14-2009, 11:19 AM
So I was wondering if people had any interest in discussing how they approach focusing on working on aiki in aikido class. I was thinking that the ki society type folks might have some valuable contributions about how they tend to break class up into ki development and then application of those skills into waza.

With aiki development, the application/utility of that kind of that kind of skill set basically just results in waza. But how would/could it work against people who attack with aiki (structure and intent)?

How could class best approach helping people with the "do" aspects? Misogi exercises that work well with the aiki development solo exercises maybe???

Any ideas?
Rob

Kevin Leavitt
08-14-2009, 01:05 PM
Good topic Rob. I don't have time right now on my lunch break to discuss, but I have thought about this as well. We do work Aiki in our waza practice depending on who is teaching and their level of skill.

However, I think there is a balance given the fact that you have a large group of foks that are coming from various levels of skill and understanding.

So it is always a challenge, I think, on what you spend time on doing and with whom.

tarik
08-15-2009, 01:41 PM
My (unoriginal) thoughts.

1. Slow down. Comprehend how people move at full speed and with strong intent and how to re-create that when moving slowly (so that you don't cheat).

2. Work on correct movement (SLOWLY), first solo, then with a partner. Rinse and repeat. Not correct technique.. correct movement.

3. Explain what each persons real intent should be, what their real target is, which muscles should be and should not be firing. (hint: it's usually not on the effect, but on all the things that will ultimately lead up to the effect).Important, but also useless without knowing how to move correctly first.

4. Comprehend when you or your partner are cheating to simulate the desired results (effect) and learn to stop doing that.

5. Test one another constantly and unexpectedly.

Some overlap and repetition there.

Reagards,

MM
08-15-2009, 07:12 PM
Tarik,
I don't think your version of intent or aiki are the same as Rob's.

ChrisHein
08-15-2009, 07:38 PM
This brings up a good point. What is the definition of Aiki we are using.

I think my definition of Aiki is closer to what Tarik Ghbeish is describing, but I don't think it's what Rob is talking about.

rob_liberti
08-15-2009, 09:39 PM
Sorry for any confusion. I meant the aiki of DR. The stuff O-sensei learned and was using. I do not mean "aiki" to be the external attempt at faking DR aiki, or to mean what most people consider the "do" aspect. I tried to clarify that by discussing aiki in terms of having built "structure and intent" and further discussing how it would be used with/against another person.

Regardless, call it whatever you want. Anyone up for discussing the best way to approach optimum training to incorporate that kind of training with aikido class? For instance, if the ki society have a typical break up of ki drills followed by some exercises to work on them - is it reasonable to steal/borrow/leverage that good work towards incorporating body-mind skills/awareness into some paired practice? Imaizumi has a very structured approach IIRC that I wouldn't mind leveraging. Maybe the Moriyama folks would be willing to chime in also?

Taking it further, is there a good way to steal/borrow/leverage some of the good work that people like Chris Hein, Roy Dean, and William Hazen do with pressure testing aikido against more realistic attacks?

Is there a good way to steal/borrow/leverage some of the good work that people like Sean Ravens have done to incorporate misogi exercises into the class? (I strongly suspect that practice would work well with the solo work we do to develop structure and intent.)

Can some of the principles of movement that the Saotome sensei folks have be leveraged and modified to work in an aiki powered defender versus anti-aiki attacker?

Anything about the Chiba sensei approach that can be leveraged? He built a decently sized organization with a lot of dedicated people. What was the secret there?

About Dazzler's dojo? Wasn't that a Tamura sensei lineage dojo in England? A while back, I got the impression that it was achieving some amazing growth, IIRC. Are there things about that we can learn from?

I really don't want to throw out any of the good ideas and innovations; I just want to shorten the learning curve and be training at a much deeper level much more rapidly. As I see it, there is always much more to learn regardless of level at which you are learning.

Mike Sigman seems to be alluding to other important and worthy aspects of aiki development. I haven't quite gotten a handle on what those aspects would be or why I would be interested in them, but I remain hopeful he might elaborate, and share some insights as to approach such things.

Rob

ChrisHein
08-15-2009, 09:57 PM
I think what you're looking for Rob is the holy grail of Aikido/Aiki arts. How do we take all the good stuff all of these people are doing and put it together.

That is a pretty good question if you ask me!

rob_liberti
08-15-2009, 10:09 PM
Yeah - I'm an integrator... And I'm planning on sharing all I can integrate. Isn't that the entire point of aikiweb? :)

I forgot to mention David Velasquez in that list of aikido pressure testers. There is also the aikido approach that Mark Murray came from in that list. Has someone already compared the Tomiki approach to the rest of the pressure testers and came away with a list of pros and cons and lessons learned?

But there are more awesome things. I love the way the folks in Aikido Kenkyukai get their new folks moving. Its fun and exhausting.

Maybe it would make sense to approach from a list of goals - but I wouldn't mind a shopping list of what is available and how it could work together to inspire a list of goals..

Rob

rob_liberti
08-15-2009, 10:26 PM
Meant David Valadez - sorry David.

Kevin Leavitt
08-15-2009, 11:03 PM
Rob, I need to find some time to get up to Mass and train with you guys. I think alot of this conversation is hard to have never having worked with you guys on the feel and non-verbal communication skills that comes with training together.

mathewjgano
08-16-2009, 01:47 AM
Yeah - I'm an integrator... And I'm planning on sharing all I can integrate. Isn't that the entire point of aikiweb? :)

Has someone already compared the Tomiki approach to the rest of the pressure testers and came away with a list of pros and cons and lessons learned?

Rob

I couldn't pretend to offer anything very insightful, but I was going to mention that some of the Tomiki Ryu exercises seem to work on what I perceive to be at least part of the "DR aiki" skills you're talking about. I really liked their warm-up katas. I forget the name of it, but in particular I was going to mention an exercise in which two people square off ai hanmi, palm to palm. One person "pushes" the other back, then the other does it. The lesson I recall taking from it was to establish that all-important ground connection and vertical posture...er...orientation. Whatever the case, I got the sense developing muscles wasn't supposed to be the point of it so maybe that's along the lines of what you're thinking.
Other than that I agree with Tarik that training slowly is an important part of the learning process. Going slow you have more time to perceive what's going on, potentially learning more about proper movement than simply going full speed.
The last couple times I trained I was reminded how often (and useful) sempai would correct kohai movements. I think having instant feedback is probably the quickest route to learning these things. To some extent you have to let a person make one mistake so he or she can focus on fixing another, but all in all, I'm finding that feedback to be the most useful.

Erick Mead
08-16-2009, 08:16 AM
Yeah - I'm an integrator... And I'm planning on sharing all I can integrate. Isn't that the entire point of aikiweb? :)
... Maybe it would make sense to approach from a list of goals - but I wouldn't mind a shopping list of what is available and how it could work together to inspire a list of goals.. I think that is all useful. But to come back to the old forest/tree thing. Every tree is an individual, not the sum of elements that make up treeness, and not the finished integration of the supreme Franken-tree of cabbaged together bits of all the "good stuff." And it is all "good stuff."

It is the forest that sums the trees, not some ideal Platonic tree.

Point being, trees are not assembled, they grow. Everyone of them is unique. As such, it is error to judge in hierarchical terms the scrawny, salt-scarred scrub oak against the hundred foot canopy crowner. If one admires strength -- which is the "best?"

As a tropical storm forms off-shore, and two more behind it already formed, I'll tell you -- I've had to chainsaw and cart off several high-reaching and "mighty" oaks toppled over, but the hurricane does not kill the scrub oak rooted in nothing but loose sand. Its strength does not lie where it can be seen.

All those ideas are all well and good, but the key question is always, it seems to me: "What is YOUR idea?" Gathering all the rich bits of other, earlier growth is all great, but only if we realize it is just a compost heap, destined to rot, slightly later than those who brought it into being, of course. and ultimately to lose its distinctiveness -- providing the bed for germinating something new. So how does your acorn grow? What is growing out of you that is unique to you in this forest of martial art ?

rob_liberti
08-16-2009, 08:34 AM
Good drummers tend to listen to every rhythm they can for a reason. -Rob

Erick Mead
08-16-2009, 09:30 AM
Good drummers tend to listen to every rhythm they can for a reason. -Rob ... But some of them are more cautionary than others -- if you know why ...

"DAH-da-da-TUM... DAH-da-da-TUM... DAH-da-da-TUM"

"Here come the drums; here come the drums!"

:D

ChrisHein
08-16-2009, 12:11 PM
I think that is all useful. But to come back to the old forest/tree thing. Every tree is an individual, not the sum of elements that make up treeness, and not the finished integration of the supreme Franken-tree of cabbaged together bits of all the "good stuff." And it is all "good stuff."

It is the forest that sums the trees, not some ideal Platonic tree.

Point being, trees are not assembled, they grow. Everyone of them is unique. As such, it is error to judge in hierarchical terms the scrawny, salt-scarred scrub oak against the hundred foot canopy crowner. If one admires strength -- which is the "best?"

As a tropical storm forms off-shore, and two more behind it already formed, I'll tell you -- I've had to chainsaw and cart off several high-reaching and "mighty" oaks toppled over, but the hurricane does not kill the scrub oak rooted in nothing but loose sand. Its strength does not lie where it can be seen.

All those ideas are all well and good, but the key question is always, it seems to me: "What is YOUR idea?" Gathering all the rich bits of other, earlier growth is all great, but only if we realize it is just a compost heap, destined to rot, slightly later than those who brought it into being, of course. and ultimately to lose its distinctiveness -- providing the bed for germinating something new. So how does your acorn grow? What is growing out of you that is unique to you in this forest of martial art ?

Nice post!

Mike Sigman
08-16-2009, 02:38 PM
Mike Sigman seems to be alluding to other important and worthy aspects of aiki development. I haven't quite gotten a handle on what those aspects would be or why I would be interested in them, but I remain hopeful he might elaborate, and share some insights as to approach such things.
Why not just continue to let Dan guide you? Ikeda, Akuzawa, Ushiro, I, and others will put information out there for other groups of people and that way, as a whole, there will be a nice assemblage of information to draw from.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Suru
08-16-2009, 03:06 PM
O'Sensei gave DR a Renaissance of sorts. He developed and taught Aikido. That is what Aikidoka should practice. He left out or morphed the ancient ways, and so should everyone who practices his martial art. Instead of looking backward with fuzzy vision, allow him to be a great man who changed the martial arts world for the betterment of us. Let his ancient foundations disappear, and learn what he created. Or, take Daito-ryu Aikijutsu class instead, remembering Ueshiba Morihei while forgetting O'Sensei.

Drew

tarik
08-16-2009, 04:11 PM
Tarik,
I don't think your version of intent or aiki are the same as Rob's.

Possibly. Probably even likely since we've never had hands on one another. However, I do read well and an awful lot of what he and others have written over time sounds an awful lot like what I'm trying to work out.. albeit sometimes from a different direction.

Sorry for any confusion. I meant the aiki of DR. The stuff O-sensei learned and was using. I do not mean "aiki" to be the external attempt at faking DR aiki, or to mean what most people consider the "do" aspect. I tried to clarify that by discussing aiki in terms of having built "structure and intent" and further discussing how it would be used with/against another person.

That sounds like my interest.. although I simply consider "do" the path we are taking rather than the application of technique ("jitsu").


Regardless, call it whatever you want. Anyone up for discussing the best way to approach optimum training to incorporate that kind of training with aikido class?

My primary thought is that any exercises, solo or paired, should be directly reflected in any techniques or pressure testing methods you apply. If they aren't, you aren't building application upon the same principles. There are lots of ways to do that.

do with pressure testing aikido against more realistic attacks?

Why shouldn't all attacks be realistic to begin with.. whether with mild pressure or increasing amounts of it?

I really don't want to throw out any of the good ideas and innovations; I just want to shorten the learning curve and be training at a much deeper level much more rapidly. As I see it, there is always much more to learn regardless of level at which you are learning.

As I see it, slowing down is the first step. Most people are all in a hurry to get up and "do technique" without beginning to really understand some principles of proper movement that make all techniques work.

You have to started any paired practice slowly and step it up in increments so as not to overwhelm the somatic nervous system re-programming you are attempting and cause more fundamental (in incorrect) responses to occur.

You cannot rely on how techniques are 'supposed' to look because they may not be based on those same principles unless you're training in a system that hasn't lost sight of those principles as the primary goal.

If you means in terms of class structure, I think that depends on the level of the students. The traditional aikido class structure is pretty well useless for real educational purposes, IMO. I think training should be pretty well customized to where each student currently is.. much like professional athletic coaching is geared.

Regards,

rob_liberti
08-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Why not just continue to let Dan guide you? Ikeda, Akuzawa, Ushiro, I, and others will put information out there for other groups of people and that way, as a whole, there will be a nice assemblage of information to draw from.

Why JUST learn from one source? Did you? Hey look, whatever, it's all good.

To me, it seems like the only reasonable way to put aiki back in aikido is to start fairly fresh. There are some fresh ideas out there and it would be nice to draw from them if people are willing to share. Otherwise, I'm really not sure why we are on these forums in the first place.

Tarik,

I have no issues with the whole start slow idea. And I wasn't seaking directly about you in terms of how some people talk about "aiki" as what most consider "do". As far as realistic attacks, well there is a time and place for drills and exercises for sure - and I think there is nothing terribly wrong with graduating from symbolic attacks to more realistic ones. What have you learned from your insights to professional athletic training?

Rob

Kevin Leavitt
08-16-2009, 08:42 PM
Tarik wrote:

If you means in terms of class structure, I think that depends on the level of the students. The traditional aikido class structure is pretty well useless for real educational purposes, IMO. I think training should be pretty well customized to where each student currently is.. much like professional athletic coaching is geared.

I agree with this whole heartedly. Which is why I personally feel we spend way too much time on waza and not enough time on developing and conditioning.

I like the model of some of the non-aikido schools I go to that I consider good. They spend an hour doing conditioning and drills until you are smoked and dripping wet, then they spend 30 minutes or so practicing techique, then 30 minutes of free, non-compliant type training.

I do agree Tarik, that training should be prescriptive in nature and each student should be counseled individual by a qualified instructor/sensei and told what to work on in order to build up weaknesses and progress. Each student is different.

rob_liberti
08-16-2009, 10:53 PM
Well when I'm dealing with intent, I don't want people smoked right away because I want their minds sharp. Not sure how to keep the mind sharp while smoking them (or myself for that matter). But that's my plan.

Rob

tarik
08-17-2009, 01:09 AM
To me, it seems like the only reasonable way to put aiki back in aikido is to start fairly fresh.

Without getting into the details, when I dramatically changed my approach to aikido, I literally resigned from my old dojo (after trying to rebuild there) and started completely fresh and not only haven't looked back, but have not, for the most part, even tried to do ANYTHING I'd practiced and taught there for fear that the habits would interfere with my learning process.

The bits from that old practice that I have reintroduced into my practice have pretty much only come because of guidance from my seniors and have all been changed from the inside out and are literally different.

I imagine at some point when the principles and understanding are cemented enough in my psyche I'll be able to add more and more of what was good back into my practice on my own, but I'm not in a rush to do that yet.

I have no issues with the whole start slow idea.

I don't mean start slow so much as I mean execute your practice while moving extremely slowly, but with an understanding of how people naturally move at real speeds.

There are LOTS of examples, but here's a quick and interesting one to start: http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/keyboard/ppf/1.2/1.2.PPFp.html

Work while moving slow enough that you have time to detect and correct your mistakes. As you improve, your speed will increase, but it will still feel to you like slow movement.

As far as realistic attacks, well there is a time and place for drills and exercises for sure - and I think there is nothing terribly wrong with graduating from symbolic attacks to more realistic ones. What have you learned from your insights to professional athletic training?

I am not a professional athlete, but professional athletes get very good very quickly and the best ones continue to improve for most of their career, even as they pass their prime. It's not just because of some inborn talent.

In my training, I am working with two regular students right now who's progress pushes me just slightly ahead of them all the time. I've noticed that when I insist that most of their practice is with me as uke, they progress much faster and more correctly for the paradigm we're working on then if I allow them much time working together. They simply don't have the tools to give one another the same feedback I can offer them (and that I need quite frankly).

They have to wade through a lot more experimentation to even get close which is what happens when you don't have seniors close to you anyway. That makes for very haphazard learning and how I perceive most of the training I've witnessed in Aikikai/CAA/ASU/USAF over the years, even with a senior teachers and shihan on the mat 'instructing' class.

Regards,

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-17-2009, 02:20 AM
Good drummers tend to listen to every rhythm they can for a reason. -Rob

and master drummers know that there is only one rhythm - the one playing in their head at any given moment as everything else is relegated to the void.

.

Lyle Bogin
08-17-2009, 08:42 AM
I noticed Imaizumi's name came up here. He does use the "ki training" methods that Tohei sensei developed, but actually speaks very little of it these days (as in for the last 7 years or so I think).

I remember someone asking him something like "Sensei, how can I use my ki to do ude-oroshi irimi on a resisting opponent, or should I use some strength". Imaizumi said "I don't understand what you mean. Just go down."

Mostly the ki training methods are an exercise in visualization and minimizing your reaction to certain stimuli. As in "chill out, don't freak out", and "be confident that you are in control".

phitruong
08-17-2009, 08:43 AM
So I was wondering if people had any interest in discussing how they approach focusing on working on aiki in aikido class. I was thinking that the ki society type folks might have some valuable contributions about how they tend to break class up into ki development and then application of those skills into waza.

Rob

question: are you asking about working on aiki skills where folks' bodies already conditioned for aiki or are you asking about conditioning body for aiki works in an aikido class?

just want to clarify. either way, it's an interesting topic.

lbb
08-17-2009, 08:44 AM
Why JUST learn from one source? Did you? Hey look, whatever, it's all good.

I don't think it's necessary or desirable to go through your whole life learning from a single source -- but I think that you do need to give it some time before you really understand what that source is teaching.

rob_liberti
08-18-2009, 05:19 AM
I don't think it's necessary or desirable to go through your whole life learning from a single source -- but I think that you do need to give it some time before you really understand what that source is teaching.

I think the whole point is silly and out of context.
I had some prior experience before I met Gleason sensei. I jumped around a bit and I can what you are saying from that perspective. But, I met Gleason sensei in 1990 or 1991. I learned primarily from 1 source for about 18 years. During that time I traveled and learned from everyone else I could and that help me learn from that 1 main source.

What I found was that the 1 main source I was learning from was ME. I am my teacher. Gleason sensei was/is my guide. He set a direction that I continue to follow in my own way. Now I have Dan as another guide. I'm still learning and teaching myself. But I can handle more/additional related advice and integrate it - because I am extremely well trained to do so.

And since I have the opportunity to go share and trade with others who feel the same way, I'm going to do that so that the people I am guiding can reap the benefit. If I am not making sense here, why does anyone ever go to seminars?

Rob

lbb
08-18-2009, 07:43 AM
I think the whole point is silly and out of context.

Then why go there? You're the one who went there. You're the one who took the discussion there. Why get salty when someone responds?

Honestly, Ron, I think if I said the earth revolves around the sun, you'd have some beef with that.

Ron Tisdale
08-18-2009, 10:25 AM
Just for Truth in Advertising...I think you meant Rob, Mary, not Ron... :eek:

Best,
Ron

thisisnotreal
08-18-2009, 10:36 AM
ron, i knew you'd have some beef with that.
sheesh.

lbb
08-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Just for Truth in Advertising...I think you meant Rob, Mary, not Ron... :eek:

Sure did...sorry.

David Orange
08-18-2009, 12:42 PM
O'Sensei gave DR a Renaissance of sorts. He developed and taught Aikido. That is what Aikidoka should practice. He left out or morphed the ancient ways, and so should everyone who practices his martial art.

What did he leave out or morph, Drew?

I don't think it's nearly as much as you think it was. It was the people who followed him in aikikai, including Tohei and Kisshomaru, who dropped a lot of the content from the curriculum. Rob is referring to the kinds of things O Sensei did--not the brand name product that is done now.

David

rob_liberti
08-21-2009, 08:52 PM
Then why go there? You're the one who went there. You're the one who took the discussion there. Why get salty when someone responds?

Honestly, Ron, I think if I said the earth revolves around the sun, you'd have some beef with that.

Silly me :) it's just that since the entire point of aikiweb is for us to share and to learn from multiple sources - I thought a discussion based on that premise would be reasonably sweet. I know a lot of the aikido world is not yet ready for aiki. Yet it's happening anyway, even if we cover our eyes, plug our ears, and yell "LA LA LA LA LA". I was just hoing to try to figure out how to best reintegrate aiki into aikido as a group regardless of the signal to noise ratio.

Rob

thisisnotreal
08-21-2009, 09:49 PM
...t's just that since the entire point of aikiweb is for us to share and to learn from multiple sources
that won't really happen for a variety of reasons
-people don't feel comfortable or feel any inclination to share what they have learned, and what new thing they integrated into the body
-we have no common parlance for high level terms. for instance even to talk about the leg; and the two simple 'western' view of them having the pronation and supination strength groundpaths. And the 'bubbling point' in the foot. is that like the balance of the 2 ground paths and the intent-effort-system?
-people cannot share information due to explicit or implicit proprietary information. what is a thought? it is funny how the body-ideas have been made secret or obfuscated. in some real way you really do have everything you need right here; right now to practice. but it's like trying to crack a lock..
-paraphrasing 'what good is yakking on the internet about it if yo can't do shit'. '..have guys sweating 2 feet in fronta me and they can't do it with me fixing them..' or something like that. (sorry)
-people don't want to look stupid
-it's aikiweb's fault. you people are too damn smart that you f* it up for everyone else. the general level of reader is astounding i have found...have read some really amazing things here. Thank you everybody. anyhoo.. people are too smart here and somma this stuff is ibvious so we can get snippy being told things we already know. so it can be a tough room, if you know what i mean. hard to share sometimes.
-mostly about a lack of common basis for vocab. like in some cma they talk alot about the kua and how to roll on the ball-and socket; ,etc. it seems to outline a view of the body. does aikido have one, preferably without incurring or getting ooga booga chi snuggets involved?
-i think people would share but people don't really know anything. So there's nothing to share (contentwise)? I know it's not really all true so don't get mad. The one-eyed-men who would be king (for it is so written); Dan and Mike, and other old weathered asians(for it is admitted that nobody can know everythying) choose not to discuss explicitly. did you really think you could type about gongfu? Now there is a good word..may I... Dan, Mike, what is gongfu?
-by the way in certain areas above i was trying to be ironic. don't you think?


- I thought a discussion based on that premise would be reasonably sweet.

you fool.


I know a lot of the aikido world is not yet ready for aiki. Yet it's happening anyway, even if we cover our eyes, plug our ears, and yell "LA LA LA LA LA". I was just hoing to try to figure out how to best reintegrate aiki into aikido as a group

do you think average persons can be tought to do and build aiki? (is that an okay thing to say?) What about fatasses? Can you sell a 'pill'... could you, say, just like sit out at work during lunch and do chinkonkishin kicking all the bandas and stuff and come out with such a strenuous internal workout that you're literally sweating out the babaganoush you had for breakfast. oh yeah.


l "LA LA LA LA LA". I

something tells me you'd be doing that anyway.

Ok, Rob; i've got a question if anyone who is scientifically inclined, other than eric mead) could offer me _any_ kind of real intuitive understanding of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_work ; and how it could potentially be helpful in a way of moving your body.
honestly; have no idea how this could ever fit into martial arts. but i think that it does frankly. chasing doun a hunch. aiight.

a group regardless of the signal to noise ratio.
just as a point of common nomenclature you could have chosen to have written '..regardless of the SNR.' (or snr, if you prefer to be casual about your nomencature).

see; just wait...noone's gonna talk about it anwya.
goodnight and goodluck
Josh (I really like how Ron signs his posts) Philipson

Erick Mead
08-21-2009, 11:34 PM
Ok, Rob; i've got a question if anyone who is scientifically inclined, other than eric mead) could offer me _any_ kind of real intuitive understanding of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_work ; and how it could potentially be helpful in a way of moving your body.
honestly; have no idea how this could ever fit into martial arts. but i think that it does frankly. chasing doun a hunch. aiight. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=159792&highlight=virtual#post159792

Ooops. ;)

Virtual work still uses pseudo-vectors and virtual forces and therefore, being more analytic and less concrete, is not as useful or immediately applicable (in my opinion) as the method of moments (hinted at in my digression on the manner of sensing precessions in static mode= sensing the instantaneous moments in the structural chain) Moment seems more intuitive -- though both can be applied. Furitama, as a slight cyclic movement, is an analog to the principle of virtual work for purposes of generating an "echo" to feel structure with.

rob_liberti
08-22-2009, 07:15 AM
Josh,

I know I wasn't going to get a lot of sharing on the "aiki" front. I was talking about the other methods of approach for learning skills (not aiki skills per se) with aikido and about approaches of pressure testing aikido (not necessarily aiki powered aikido).

Basically, I don't want to throw away the baby with the bathwater. But in this case, I'm not as interested in most people's "baby" - but they put a heck of a lot of good work into thinking about their particular bathwater(s) and I'd like to leverage that good work with "aiki" (as my baby in this example).

Rob

thisisnotreal
08-22-2009, 07:50 AM
D'OH!

nevermind then.

mathewjgano
08-22-2009, 02:56 PM
I was just hoing to try to figure out how to best reintegrate aiki into aikido as a group regardless of the signal to noise ratio.

Rob

Since it has more to do with how well an individual understands the way his or her body can operate, I think the best way is to experience the people who are "best" at it and then do our best to share what we pick up. My view is that while we can describe the "problem" in terms of Aikido the real problem is an individualistic one. Simply applying competitive componants, for example, does nothing to teach the thing itself. You can structure class in the best possible way and still not teach it best to everyone.

phitruong
08-23-2009, 07:27 AM
setup separate class to work on aiki. over time, folks will integrate aiki into their aikido by themselves or not. trying to do aiki in the traditional aikido class is a losing proposition. :)

lets face it. aiki works are not sexy. folks like to do big throws, big beautiful ukemi, umpteen ways to do shihonage, etc and etc. aiki works are just work, work, work; tedious work, boring work, and time consuming work that take years to realize the potential if any. it's not one of those fast food aikido thing. ;)

Adman
08-23-2009, 11:40 AM
setup separate class to work on aiki. over time, folks will integrate aiki into their aikido by themselves or not. trying to do aiki in the traditional aikido class is a losing proposition. :)

The Ki Society, as other people have noted, does define two areas that need to be developed. The "ki" aspect and the waza aspect. Although there can be a division of, first hour "ki" class, second hour "aikido" class (with variations), both are still taught concurrently. The only problem with this model, is that a student on day one is taught in this manner. I suppose the ideal situation would be to have a new student (or an established student just beginning "ki" training), attend only the "ki" class for a minimum of three months (or longer). After which, the student must pass the first "ki" rank test, before being brought into waza training. This test contains the bare minimum requirements to show that the student has a good basic grasp on the concepts and early development of the skills.

I think this could be made to work as long as all of the students have gone through this process and are able to demonstrate the basic skill-set. To Phi's point, this would be putting the responsibility on the student to train every day on the body skills. If they don't put in the work, they won't pass the test(s). The work is tedious, sometimes boring and usually frustrating. This is not thought of as the way to attract new students. However, if the dojo as a whole is able to show a solid grasp of the "ki" skills while showing a good infusion of these skills in their waza, then I think a viable dojo membership takes care of itself. There's just that BIG hump to initially get over.

Of course, all of this hinges on a capable instructor who has gone through a similar process and continues to relentlessly train the basic skills.

Thanks,
Adam

Adman
08-23-2009, 11:45 AM
The Ki Society, as other people have noted, does define two areas that need to be developed.
I just wanted to add that my previous post had to do with a structured curriculum, as opposed to how the ki skills are actually taught. Hence, the need for a "capable instructor".

Best,
Adam

gdandscompserv
08-23-2009, 03:19 PM
setup separate class to work on aiki. over time, folks will integrate aiki into their aikido by themselves or not. trying to do aiki in the traditional aikido class is a losing proposition. :)

lets face it. aiki works are not sexy. folks like to do big throws, big beautiful ukemi, umpteen ways to do shihonage, etc and etc. aiki works are just work, work, work; tedious work, boring work, and time consuming work that take years to realize the potential if any. it's not one of those fast food aikido thing. ;)
perhaps morning classes?

tarik
08-24-2009, 01:06 AM
Actually, to go strictly back to the subject of the thread, I don't think one CAN work on aiki in a traditional aikido class except perhaps for oneself.

Traditional aikido classes are not really structured for real learning, IMO, they are places to play and experiment with knowledge and skills gained from direct hand-on coaching and practice.

I'm personally not a fan of the traditional aikido class and I was breaking out of it before I changed directions. IMO, they are too fast paced, with not enough CLEAR explanation or real transmission of 'how stuff works', not enough repetition (4 times, right left, then switch roles, really!?!), and most people are not really doing what the leader was demonstrating in the first place even if/when it was good stuff (I can no longer bring myself to call them an instructor or teacher without seeing something more).

I know lots of people who are trying or have tried to break out of that mold, but I know lots more who get their panties in a bundle if you do. I don't think they'd care for the way I train today because I can't/dont' count how many repetitions we do before changing roles, and we are constantly working on learning on how to simulate fast movement while moving a slowly as we are currently capable.

So.. if it isn't clear, my thought is that you shouldn't even try to incorporate aiki into a traditional aikido class.. if aiki is what is important to you, change how you train and forget about a tradition that is hardly old enough to be truly 'time honored'.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
08-24-2009, 11:29 AM
Actually, to go strictly back to the subject of the thread, I don't think one CAN work on aiki in a traditional aikido class except perhaps for oneself.The main problem is going to be what the teacher knows and leads the class in doing, IMO. At the moment, the only 'traditional' ASU teacher with very good Aikido skills and who also has a reasonable complement of internal skills is Hiroshi Ikeda, IMO. So in addition to his ability to teach wide-ranging Aikido techniques, Ikeda also has the ability to teach how I.S. skills are used within Aikido.

There are some Ki-Society native-Japanese teachers, too, but I have only had superficial contact with some of them, so I can't comment too intelligently on what they do. The telling factor is going to be what the students can do and that's going to be the real horse-race. At the moment, I'm interested in watching the development of Ikeda's students over the next few years; I feel that Ikeda will develop (potentially) some students with I.S. and technique skills with one of the better chances of success. But who knows?

FWIW

Mike Sigman

jss
08-25-2009, 06:47 AM
..., and we are constantly working on learning on how to simulate fast movement while moving a slowly as we are currently capable.
Why do you do that? You move as slow as possible to make it easier evaluating your movements and technique, but it needs to simulate fast movement to be martially viable?

lbb
08-25-2009, 07:34 AM
First we had "true internal strength", now it's "real learning". This will end well.

phitruong
08-25-2009, 08:01 AM
First we had "true internal strength", now it's "real learning". This will end well.

you assumed that it would end. :)

it's quite irritating when folks tell you about learning as though you don't already know about it. what have we been doing, not learning? come on, many of us here have college degree, we know how to learn, damn it! :straightf

say, you know anything about this "real learning" that you can teach moi? along with some "internal strength" as well? :)

jss
08-25-2009, 09:01 AM
say, you know anything about this "real learning" that you can teach moi?
Depends, what's your definition of "real teaching"? :rolleyes:

tarik
08-25-2009, 02:08 PM
Why do you do that? You move as slow as possible to make it easier evaluating your movements and technique, but it needs to simulate fast movement to be martially viable?

When you move too quickly, you cannot monitor and override habitual movements that are detrimental to your training goal. Also the window of opportunity is longer, which allows you more opportunity for success. Success is a vital component to learning.

When you are not accurately simulating fast movement, what you learn will not apply when you speed back up (so why learn it).

Tarik