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Nick
08-05-2000, 09:47 PM
In response to the poll:

I don't think the question is _would_ you kill an attacker, but rather- COULD you kill an attacker? I'm not talking fighting or anything, I'm talking if it came down to it, do you think you could muster up what it takes to end another human being's life?

Something to ponder,

-Nick

Tony Peters
08-05-2000, 10:43 PM
Interesting question, How much do you value your own life? Personaly I would like to think that I could indeed take another life if necsessary...but then I'm in the military and have been indoctrinated into that way of thinking. It comes down to taking responsiblity for your own self. Not expecting someone else (police etc) to look out for you. Most people don't think this way...most don't feel responsible for what they do themselves. Sad state of affairs we're in. I value my own life above all else...anyone thinking to seperate me from that had best beware. I do hope that this will never become a reality. I know that I can trust my judgement though not because I've every been threatened my another human dirrectly but I've had it threatened by circumstance (Aircraftcarrier flightdeck) and I lived through that and thrived in the environment(even and especially at night). BTW many people consider this to be the most dangerous work environment in the world. So yes I think that I could form the raional thought necsessary to end another humans life. However, rarely would a being bent on putting me (or anyone else) in this position considered human, usually this type of being is closer to an animal (though most of those are more polite) and as I will gladly kill what I eat I have no problem killing (not that I would eat a corpse but you get my point)

chillzATL
08-07-2000, 08:05 AM
That's a tough one to answer, for anyone. I think anyone who is trained in martial arts could do it if the situation called for it. The question we have to ask ourselves, and it's different for everyone, is in what situation would we have to kill someone. That mental level is going to be different for everyone. Before writing this I sat back and thought about various situations that might require that and all of them are very extreme. If someone attacked me with a knife and I disarmed them, would I kill them? no. If I felt my life was really, truely threatened, yes, I certainly think I would do it. If there was no other way or I had been pushed to a point that survival instinct had taken over, yes, I would. Those are very extreme situations though. Ones that I hope none of us ever have to experience.

Nick
08-07-2000, 12:27 PM
Indeed, we should try to avoid such situations. It just reminds of people, who when it comes down to it, can't kill someone (especially in movies). that's what made me think of it- our training rises us above society to choose to kill or give or give life in one split second, we must decide whether we must become the Katsujinken or Satsujinto. Hopefully, none of us ever need to become the latter.

-Nick

Tony Peters
08-07-2000, 04:08 PM
This is not meant to disparage any one or any art. One of the major problems with martial arts in general today is that there is no thought given to what is necsessarilly a life or death situation. No I'm not taking about specific situations rather more of a zanshin type thing. I've had that kind of threat applied to me and I felt a whole hell of a lot better when I got out of that location (an airplane crashed there within 2 minutes of my leaving). The other problem comes as people don't ever think about how far to carry an action. Me personally I personly tend to beleive in the no further threat concept. OK he/she/it is disarmed of a weapon but is he still a threat? If so how do I eliminate that threat? Purely pragmatic. No, death is not the only answer hopefully it will never be "THE" answer but if it is you have to make that choice...or you die yourself. Most people will die...it just not part of their mindset

[Edited by Tony Peters on August 7, 2000 at 09:54pm]

chrisinbrasil
08-14-2000, 05:25 PM
Yes.

At your service,
Christopher

TomCat
08-28-2000, 12:22 PM
My "first" martial art was/is the pistol. As such, I already made the decision, and would be willing to, kill an attacker. I sought out and started Aikido in order to have other (preferable) options but would still be willing to use leathal force if the situation called for it.

TomCat

HanshaSuro
08-28-2000, 12:35 PM
I cannot understand how topics like this appear on an aikido message board. Irrespective of whether or not you would/could make the decision to end another person's life in defense of your own, the purpose of training in aikido is to obtain the skills to protect the well-being of those who would try to harm you as you ensure your own safety. Anything less than this goal is a perversion of the ideals of the art.

-------------
-Mike

Bruce E
08-28-2000, 01:00 PM
Perhaps the classic book on this subject is Grossman's "On Killing : The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society", http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316330116/qid%3D967484199/103-6385116-8973468).

This is a subject that should probably be contemplated on by practicioners of any serious martial art.

Magma
08-28-2000, 01:24 PM
<<plays devil's advocate for HanshaSuro

Aikido teaches us to use discretion and compassion in life. Would you agree that there might possibly be a situation where one might have to take a life out of compassion? I'm not talking about the philosophical argument of "putting someone out of their misery." Rather, if compassion for a fellow member of your community - who you, as an enlightened, aware individual (read "martial artist"), are duty bound to protect - means taking the life of a third person about to do grave harm to them, could you do that?

The question is not "Do you train to be able to kill someone more efficiently?" or even "Do you train to be able to kill someone?" I think what is at the heart of the question is does the training you take in the dojo prepare you for all that life may throw at you, including specifically a situation where you may called on to take another person's life?

M

HanshaSuro
08-28-2000, 04:58 PM
I think what is at the heart of the question is does the training you take in the dojo prepare you for all that life may throw at you, including specifically a situation where you may called on to take another person's life?The entire reason I decided to begin aikido was because it trains with the highest value placed on human life, both in practice and execution. I would never train in a martial art where the emphasis was becoming the best killing machine I could. So, the training that *I* take prepares me to resolve all situations in the safest manner possible for all those involved. If someone ever died at my hands I'd consider it a failure, not a success.

------------
-Mike

Nick
08-28-2000, 05:15 PM
then, what about a sword duel, in which either you kill or die... of course it would be considered a failure, and all but the most skilled of us couldn't take a live sword from a swordsman... so then, what would you do?

-Nick

HanshaSuro
08-28-2000, 06:31 PM
then, what about a sword duel, in which either you kill or die... of course it would be considered a failure, and all but the most skilled of us couldn't take a live sword from a swordsman... so then, what would you do?Nick, well, in your example, let's just say you do have this skilled swordsman who you cannot take a sword from. Now, tell me your chances of surviving that fight anyway? Even O-Sensei has spoken of challenges he knew better than to try and defend himself against. It has been said that he has been able to avoid the muskets of men lined up to kill him. However, when an old hunter challenged him to avoid his bullet, O-Sensei sat down with him and looked him in the eye and realized that the man was too determined to kill him, and that if he accepted, he would die. Your contrived example is somewhat off the point. The best defense is to see a fight about to start and remove yourself from that situation. My statement was simply that in unavoidable situations, if I was not skilled enough to prevent the death of someone else, I would consider it a failure. Our training goals are obviously different. In my mind, to kill someone should not be glorified and given respect when other options are available. So, in direct response to your question, if I was in the situation of a sword duel to the death, and was forced to kill the other person, I would consider it a failure.

Nick
08-28-2000, 07:21 PM
Hanshasuro-san:

A very good response. I suppose this is what we would call Katsujinken.

-Nick

HanshaSuro
08-28-2000, 08:34 PM
Nick,

Domo. O genki de yo.

------------
-Mike

stratcat
08-28-2000, 08:43 PM
That's a question I NEVER want to find the answer to, basically. Furthermore, anyone that says that they are capable of killing another human being clearly has never done so. NO ONE who has ever killed another person stands up and proudly proclaims "Hey I've killed someone!" unless they are seriously mentally ill or under extreme psychological duress. Even soldiers in war, trained to kill, do not revel in killing and are loathe to speak of it (the ones I've met, anyway). When they do kill, it's because it's unavoidable, and it happens so quickly that instinct and training take over.
It's all well and good to say, "Hey, in a life or death situation, it's either me or them, so yeah, I'd grease 'em", but when it comes down to brass tacks, the fact is NO ONE KNOWS what they'll do. In a life or death situation, so many factors are at work (psychological state of the attacker and of the intended victim, physical condition of the subjects, type of weapon, mode of attack, lighting, footing, location, etc.), that even if you are specifically trained to kill people (or loonier than a snake's armpit), the outcome is never predetermined. In my line of work (assistant prosecutor)I've known people who claim to be the hardest, meanest cops around, and when they are actually in a situation a life or death situation, they can't deal with it. Conversely, I've met sweet, wonderful ladies who would seem incapable of the least act of violence, stab their abusive husbands 18 times with a meat cleaver and swear they'd do it again and again and again if they could.
The point is, the question is unanswerable. Anyone who says they would do it have never had the experience of grabbing a person's head and jaw and twisting them around until their cervical vertebrae crunch and break, snapping the spinal cord, and turning that being into clay; or have never pulled the trigger of a gun and heard the wet smack of a bullet penetrating the target's thoraxic area and smelling the coppery tang of their blood as spills on the ground.
Our position, not only as Aikidoka, but as martial artists is completely incompatible with the taking of a human life, under any circumstances. Granted, when under attack we must safeguard our lives and that of those in our care and protection. However, we are above petty conflict, and must remember that our Art, whatever it may be is intended to "stop the blade". We must do what is necessary to remove a threat to our person, to defend ourselves, no more, no less. To do any more than that is blatant hooliganism, a petty, spiteful use of our abilities, and a travesty of everything O- Sensei teaches. We train to better ourselves and, through that training, better mankind as a whole. A martial artist is taught to recognize conflict and is taught to resolve it through peaceful means. Corollary to this is the conclusion that ANY conflict must be resolved with the MINIMUM amount of force required. O- Sensei taught that Aikido is to be used to unite the Family of Man in a peaceful way. If you train to become a killing machine, bad mother****** or whatever, Buddy, not only are you learning the wrong Art, you might someday be VERY unpleasantly surprised.
Andy G.

HanshaSuro
08-28-2000, 10:11 PM
. If you train to become a killing machine, bad mother****** or whatever, Buddy, not only are you learning the wrong Art, you might someday be VERY unpleasantly surprised.Stratcat, 100% my sentiments exactly.

------------
-Mike

Magma
08-29-2000, 12:14 AM
The award for "Best Turn of Phrase" in a modern post goes to stratcat, for the entry "loonier than a snake's armpit."

ahem.

I, too, agree with the cat.

M

Tony Peters
08-29-2000, 05:40 PM
One of the limiting factors is each person's relative skill. It is by far much easier to terminate a conflict by maiming or ending a persons life while protecting your own than it is to end by protecting them and yourself. Everyone has spoken of a perceived failure if the other guy is hurt or killed; well I'm not sorry to say that I look to myself first (probably why aikido doesn't work for me, Mentally at least). Win-Win conflict resoulution is great in theory but it's practice will get most of us killed. Especially if you spend any time whatso ever thinking about not hurting the guy who is trying to kill you.

Chocolateuke
08-29-2000, 11:06 PM
would I kill some one only in teh most exstream conditions ( war, Duel) but only if I really could bring myself to it and if there in all the ways to use a throw was no choice. but then I would think why kill someone who wanted to kill me? sure he wants to take my life but still samuries where allways ready to die by the sword. so I guess most likely not and besides what is wrong getting a suntan in heaven?

rch
08-30-2000, 12:58 AM
I think the real question is, would you ever *need* to kill someone? I can only think of a couple of reasons why I would ever *need* to kill someone. So far, I haven't had to worry about any of them yet.

On another note...

I'd just like to know why you would be in the mix with a skilled swordsman with a live blade? Not sure about your neck of the woods, but here in Indianapolis, you just can't run around with a katana strapped to your belt. :)

HanshaSuro
08-30-2000, 04:12 PM
Everyone has spoken of a perceived failure if the other guy is hurt or killed; well I'm not sorry to say that I look to myself first (probably why aikido doesn't work for me, Mentally at least).Tony, that's not a wrong or immoral state of mind by any means. I don't think anyone could fault you for feeling that way. However, to train in aikido is to perceive and accept responsibility for your actions in defense. I agree that to be a beginner (as I am) in aikido, the prospects of dealing with a serious attack in such a way that I do not hurt my attacker is not particularly likely. In fact, to try could cost me my life. However, I do dedicate my training in the safe environment of the dojo to increasing my skills to this end. I would still consider it a failure of someone died at my hands, deserving or no - experienced in the art, or no.

-----------------
-Mike

Nick
08-30-2000, 05:14 PM
rch wrote:

I'd just like to know why you would be in the mix with a skilled swordsman with a live blade? Not sure about your neck of the woods, but here in Indianapolis, you just can't run around with a katana strapped to your belt. :)


Merely hypothetical...

-Nick

Tony Peters
08-30-2000, 06:51 PM
HanshaSuro wrote:
that's not a wrong or immoral state of mind by any means. I don't think anyone could fault you for feeling that way. However, to train in aikido is to perceive and accept responsibility for your actions in defense. I agree that to be a beginner (as I am) in aikido, the prospects of dealing with a serious attack in such a way that I do not hurt my attacker is not particularly likely. In fact, to try could cost me my life. However, I do dedicate my training in the safe environment of the dojo to increasing my skills to this end. I would still consider it a failure of someone died at my hands, deserving or no - experienced in the art, or no.

-----------------
-Mike


This is where I see a problem with Aikido; It intsills an atittude of protecting your attacker that is fine and good for the Dojo and, after you have been studying for a decade or two, the street but makes no variation for beginers who haven't the experience or skill to act this way. Of course there are sensei out there who will tell you up front that Aikido isn't a self defence art until you put in a lot of years (the truth). Without putting down Aikido (as I truely enjoyed my study) what I learn provided a great foundation for my ongoing study of Koryu arts. I still relate techniques to aikido (and to a lesser extent jodo) but aikido's approach is not combat/realworld related and using it in such a situation too early can/will get you hurt (of course I, in my only "fight" since I started M.A. 6 years ago, used Nikyo to respond to a semi haymaker, it worked, scared the hell out of me, damn near broke the guys wrist, gave me a newfound desire to avoid conflict where every possible and convunced me to insure that my training was both realistic and traditional not stylized). The thing that is nice about Aikido is that within the system there is a lot of room for practice and variation. If you have an uke who can stay with you playing with things until you get them right is very easy. The converse is also true. Ukemi has gotten me out of more problems that any other aikido related skill.

[Edited by Tony Peters on August 30, 2000 at 05:55pm]

HanshaSuro
08-30-2000, 07:04 PM
Tony,

A well spoken response.

---------
-Mike

Nick
08-30-2000, 08:00 PM
To think that you could use any true budo after a few months of training is naive. This is not to say you could not defend yourself, but to protect your opponent is the true aim of Aikido as expressed by O'sensei.

This is not meant to belittle your response, which was both well thought and well written. I just believe that protecting your attacker is important, and only if in no way you can do that should you try to hurt him.

Gomen nasai on my strong opinions here- but it was curiosity that brought me to this art, and the nonviolent philosophy that brought me to continue studying this art.

-Nick

Tony Peters
08-31-2000, 11:44 AM
Nick wrote:
To think that you could use any true budo after a few months of training is naive. This is not to say you could not defend yourself, but to protect your opponent is the true aim of Aikido as expressed by O'sensei.

This is not meant to belittle your response, which was both well thought and well written. I just believe that protecting your attacker is important, and only if in no way you can do that should you try to hurt him.

Gomen nasai on my strong opinions here- but it was curiosity that brought me to this art, and the nonviolent philosophy that brought me to continue studying this art.

-Nick


My opinion is that even after years (less than 10) aikido can be hazardous to the practicianer because of its stylized nature of protecting the attacker. I don't beleive that any M.A. (with the exception of Shotgundo) makes a good self defence after a few months practice not to belittle your response (since you were so polite to me). You and I just differ on how we see it; though I doubt you would place an atackers welfare above your own you do spend more time/effort to insure his possible wellbeing; that is admirable...I certainly can respect it but I can't emulate it. For me it entails too much risk...I enjoy my life too much and prefer my risks to be of a differant nature. Not sure what changed my mindset on this because I used to whole heartedly agree with O'sensei's priciples but they just don't work for me now. I still enjoy Aikido though I can't play as hard as I used to because my reactions are differant now and thats not fair to my partner.

Russ
08-31-2000, 02:24 PM
You know, Stratcat pretty much sums up the futility of this thread and still we continue to succumb to the tempation of fantasy. It's like he never posted a reply at all and we choose to pursue the useless endeavour of hypothisizing about "would I, could I, should I......?"

I think anyone would be hard pressed to show that this kind of questioning has any value, (I mean specifically, "would I, could I, should I....,"), beyond making ourselves feel better via our own rationalizations about said hypothetical situation.

Why are we not comfortable with not knowing? (And hoping never to find out!)

I apologize for the harsh tone, perhaps I've missed the point that we're engaging in a sort of "mental jerk off". And if that's the case, this is just a bit of fun, a distraction, then fine. But if we're actually trying to engage ourselves with serious thought on training and living then I gotta ask why questions like this one tickle peoples fancy so.

Magma
08-31-2000, 03:03 PM
I was told this was a/the Shaolin Creed, but as many things in martial arts go (at least in the west), I can't say if somewhere someone stylized this, or stole it, or decided that their philosophy needed a convenient, ancient handle to get it promoted...

Regardless, I think it has merit:

It is better to avoid than to block;
better to block than to strike;
better to strike than to maim;
better to maim than to kill;
For all life is precious, and none can be replaced.

That is at the heart of my training, both on the floor and off. So while I don't know what I might do in a situation bad enough where someone might die because of me, I do know that my feeling about myself and about that situation post facto will be heavily decided by how well I think I applied the philosophy above.

M.

Nick
08-31-2000, 05:00 PM
That sounds like a samurai adage that O-sensei frequented:

"Try the utmost to avoid conflict. ut, if conflict cannot be avoided, than cause pain before you injure, Injure before you maim, maim you before you kill. And if you must kill, make a clean kill, for life is too precious to be wasted."

Also-

I will try to protect my attacker if possible. I try to live by that adage, so if I must turn to violence, I will try to use only what is necessary.

Kanpai,

-Nick

Tony Peters
08-31-2000, 06:21 PM
I prefer the doctrine of Richard Marcinko, "Understand when violence is neccessary and when it isn't. If it is use it to the extreme, until it is no longer neccessary, then stop" (bad paraphrasing but you get the point).

Nick
08-31-2000, 07:54 PM
well, that's where our opinions differ, because, if after you use that violence 'to the extreme', the only point in which you may stop is if your attacker cannot be injured any farther. I don't agree with it, but it's your opinion, and I respect it.

Ja,

-Nick

Magma
08-31-2000, 09:46 PM
I disagree with your interpretation of Tony, Nick. The flag for when to stop the violence is when it is no longer necessary. It's just a way of saying that whatever you do, do with your whole mind. If that means violence becomes necessary, you commit yourself to it.

Don't know if I agree, but I think this was closer to what he meant.

M.

Tony Peters
09-01-2000, 12:42 AM
Magma wrote:
I disagree with your interpretation of Tony, Nick. The flag for when to stop the violence is when it is no longer necessary. It's just a way of saying that whatever you do, do with your whole mind. If that means violence becomes necessary, you commit yourself to it.

Don't know if I agree, but I think this was closer to what he meant.

M.

Thank you...that is pretty much what I meant. I've had the oppurtunaty to train with a wide variety of Aikido sensei I've met some whose aikdo was indeed beautiful they had something that I will likely never get but would love to have (Aoyagi Sensei springs to mind) then there are the ones who think they have it but really don't (I won't name any as my opinion is just that, mine and I may be wrong) the ones that I really love to train with however are the ones that scare me (Apodaca Sensei falls into this catagory) I like to be pushed and I like to know the consequences of my F@#k up (Think Henka waza or worse). My first sensei had this same quality though in a completely differant style (he was a retired cop/H2H instructor). If one plans on using aikido in a Self Defence (TM) situation Committing to the complete action of terminating the conflict has to way out over protecting the attacker. The better you are the less chance you have of hurting him but thinking of his welfare is not thinking of yours. Otherwise the end will not be a win-win situation you strived for. This is a drawback of Aikido priciples in the short run. To quote something Ellis Amdur said recently on e-budo " 'aiki' arts are just a very very long way around to learn how to fight" If your goal isn't to learn how to fight, fine but don't fool yourself either.

Bussho
09-01-2000, 07:30 AM
To kill or not to kill

Death is but a natural extenstion of life. I choose to use the least violent way of life, but only according to what happens. For else I'll be predefining things before they happen. With each choice I make, life/death is choosen. When choosing life death follows, and so the other way. So the question of taking a life confuses me.

Ciao
Terje

Tim Haffner
09-02-2000, 04:57 PM
When I think about this subject, I like to refer to O'sensei's Precautions for Training, item 1:
The original intent of Budo was to kill an enemy in a single blow, since all techniques can be lethal, follow the directions of the instructor and do not engage in contests of strength.

Also, I consider when Admiral Takeshita arranged a demonstration before the Emperor for O'sensei in 1938. O'sensei originally refused saying that he would not show "false" technique to the divine Emperor. When Takeshita asked further, O'sensei said that if he was to perform "true" technique he would kill the attacker. Takeshita convinced him to perform before the Emperor, but was deathly sick up until he stepped on the mat. Yukawa, his uke, tried to compensate for the illness and attacked weakly, but O'sensei responded briskly and dislocated his shoulder. Gozo Shioda Sensei had to take ukemi for the rest of the demonstration.

Granted, this is evidence of O'sensei's Pre-war approach to Budo. As he got older, his thoughts on combat application were replaced with religious philosophy. This is understandable, but I would submit that current Aikido training emphasizes the value of ALL human life, but should not require anyone to lay down their lives at the hands of an attacker. The taking of human life should be avoided, but we can not embody O'sensei's mission of the love and protection of all living things from the grave.

Just my $0.02

Tim Haffner

Tim Haffner
09-02-2000, 05:08 PM
Just as an additional reference, I would like to quote Yukiyoshi Takamura sensei, the recently passed Soke of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin-ryu jujutsu. This was in an interview with Aikido Journal, Vol. 26 no.2, 1999.

"A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impendind destruction of the enemy he chooses, non-violence."

I think that in order to truly work for peace, you must be in control of the situation. You can not make choices when an attacker is imposing his or her will upon you. If you can control your attacker then you can make these choices. However, there are elements of the attack and the attacker that are beyond your control and therefore you can not choose between Katsujin no ken and Satsujinto. If face the situation in Mushin, it is not choice, it is action.

Nick
09-02-2000, 06:50 PM
I didn't mean to say I'd be trying to protect only my attacker. In fact, if someone's well being besides my own was at stake, I'd be anything but nice (whoops, threw in 4 extra atemi before smashing you to the ground, sorry). I simply think that you should escalate violence one level above what is being given to you.

To quote a samurai adage:

"Cut my skin and I cut your flesh. Cut my flesh and I cut your bones. Cut my bones and I kill you."

I feel that too much violence is unnecesary. Personally I believe that we train so that our techniques will work just as well 'on the street' as they will in the dojo, no matter what the person pulls.

Also- one final thought before I leave you be for now- in this age, protecting yourself can be dangerous. Not physcially, but legally. A guy breaks into your house and you break his leg. He sues you and, thanks to America's wonderful law system, there's a good chance you'll be writing him a nice fat check.

I suppose the moral of my story is to just use your judgement.

-Nick

Erik
09-03-2000, 02:43 PM
Nick wrote:
To quote a samurai adage:

"Cut my skin and I cut your flesh. Cut my flesh and I cut your bones. Cut my bones and I kill you."


Have you noticed that you are already cut before you respond? Too late and it's not blending. It's along the same lines of "turn the other cheek" which is fine and all but it means you've been hit and that can finish your escalation philosophy before it gets started. Like it or not, first strike usually wins.

I'm also reminded of something I've been told that the Dalai Lama said in regards to the Chinese. His comment was "we didn't do a very good job of taking care of ourselves." I don't know exactly how he meant that.

Cas Long
09-04-2000, 06:43 AM
If there was no other way to resolve the situation, yes I would.

If someone offers kindness towards me, I return a kind deed: this is Harmony.

In attacking one disrupts Harmony, & it should always be re-established.
Therefore, if my life was on the line, and THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY, I would do
whatever was necessary to maintain Harmony.

This is my personal opinion, & is as honest as I can make it......

Magma
09-04-2000, 10:28 PM
Aghh! Nick, one level of violence more than what you've received? If that is the essence of budo then we're seriously missing something in our art.

That's Chaos Theory Budo:
In Times Square, New York, a man sneezes on a foreigner, and several escalations later, bombs are dropping halfway around the world.

I thought we trained to meet energy, turn it, and redirect it.

And as far as if you are waiting to be cut then you are cut and there is no getting around that - or the "first strike wins" notion - I think there is an underlying attitude behind the "cut my bones and I kill you" adage that was quoted above:

katsu hayabi ("moving with the speed of the gods"), OR,
ko no sen ("moving first after your opponent moves")

You discern your opponents intent and move accordingly. He may cut to cut through your bones, but you have already moved to a position behind him.

M.

Nick
09-07-2000, 05:51 PM
"Aiki is not a technique to fight with or defeat the enemy. It is the way to reconcile to world and make human beings one family."

Also-

"Therefore to compete in techniques, winning and losing, is not true budo. True budo knows no defeat. "Never defeated" means "never fighting."

-O'Sensei

Something to think about.

-Nick

ze'ev erlich
09-09-2000, 11:12 AM
here are the five attitudes:

1. escape with no physical contact
(try to talk or just run away)

2. defend yourself without hurting him (arm lock etc,)in a way that the attacker is not able to attack again


3. hurt the attacker if it helps to keep him 'quiet' antil police comes.

4. kill him if there is a danger that he might do that to you or others before police arrive.

5. sacrifice yourself in order to save the others.




yours

ze'ev





[Edited by ze'ev erlich on September 9, 2000 at 10:19am]

Kensakiro
09-12-2000, 07:57 AM
Hello,
In psychological tests humans appear to have the ability and decisiveness to kill if driven to the point where they needed to. I think survival instincts would decide that at the moment of the encounter.
In earlier days samurai would kill immediately because you cannot waist time with someone. You cannot let them go alive, because they will come back with you with guns or with backup of buddies, friends etc. People get pretty desperate at times, given the right circumstances.
I don't believe one can say yes or no, but I do think that one should do what the moment gives you!
As long as you don't focus on killing someone!!
Thanks

Highway
09-12-2000, 09:37 AM
Never having killed anyone before it is very difficult to answer this. If you mess with my family the possibility may exist, if you are trying to hurt me, I will respond in kind with a sufficiant amount of force,and maybe just a bit more for good measure.A rabid or insane animal needs to be destroyed, if you can disable it and let the law do the rest then you have dont your part.

David Harrandell
10-04-2000, 05:18 AM
I think that if your aikido is good enough, you shouldn't have to kill anyone. If you are attacked, and you escape with both yourself and the attacker(s) intact then you can be happy with what you have done. Of course rendering your attacker(s) unconscious is feasable, but killing, NO!
If you consider killing an option, then I'm afraid you are in the wrong art.
When you train, you should keep in mind that, you should be able to vary the amout of power you use on an attacker. For the sake of argument ,if a beginner decided he/she had had enough of your constant correction of a technique and they came for you with the intent of severely hurting you would you kill them to protect yourself.... I know I wouldn't. Likewise on the street, say someone knew you did a martial art and decided to test themselves against you what would you do... If you killed them you would loose a potential student and also part of yourself.

[Edited by David Harrandell on October 4, 2000 at 04:26am]

Kensakiro
10-04-2000, 06:19 AM
hello
agreed, if your Aikido is good enough.
Now have u ever read O'sensei's texts.
He himself says that Aikido is not perfect and sometimes it happens that someone gets killed and that's a part in life.
Now have you ever had a situation on the street when you had to save your life with Aikido?
If you have had a situation you know, if not, I don't think it's good to say that nobody is doing the wrong martial arts. It's nice to do Buddhism and phillosophy, but my frien,... out there it's real life and real threatening situations.
Thank you!


David Harrandell wrote:
I think that if your aikido is good enough, you shouldn't have to kill anyone. If you are attacked, and you escape with both yourself and the attacker(s) intact then you can be happy with what you have done. Of course rendering your attacker(s) unconscious is feasable, but killing, NO!
If you consider killing an option, then I'm afraid you are in the wrong art.
When you train, you should keep in mind that, you should be able to vary the amout of power you use on an attacker. For the sake of argument ,if a beginner decided he/she had had enough of your constant correction of a technique and they came for you with the intent of severely hurting you would you kill them to protect yourself.... I know I wouldn't. Likewise on the street, say someone knew you did a martial art and decided to test themselves against you what would you do... If you killed them you would loose a potential student and also part of yourself.

[Edited by David Harrandell on October 4, 2000 at 04:26am]

Mariahn Scarborough
10-04-2000, 06:07 PM
Many, many years ago I was attacked by two men in downtown Washington DC. I was an accomplished martial artist and I was in very good shape. Two men approached me as I made my way to the underground and one had a small knife that he threatened me with. I was wearing High heels and as I backed into the shadows I slipped them off into my hands.

When the man with the knife attacked me I blocked with my left arm and put my high heeled shoe through his temple with my right.

The other man ran away.

When I decided, late in life, to go back to school to get my masters in education I thought alot about this episode in my early twenties. My attacker did live, but he will never think quite the same way again. I decided to take this martial art specifically because I CAN kill someone if they are going to try to take my life. I know this and although I am not in the shape I was then, it was amazingly easy to hurt that man. I wanted to find another way.

Schools are becoming progressively more violent and I am fast progressing to "little old lady" stage. It is very important for me to be able to protect myself and not hurt a child or young adult who is out of control.

Another thing that I have learned over the past several decades is that if you project a calm and loving demeanor, most people, reflect that right back to you. Aikido has taught me how to extend that "ki" all around me. Even the really rough kids in the classroom calm down if I am calm.

I think that it is a given that any human is capable of killing another human, especially in a life threatening situation. The question I ask myself is, in a similar circumstance could I maintain my calm and NOT kill someone who was intent upon killing me.

Brian H
10-08-2000, 03:14 PM
If placed under attack the perfect solution would be to bring the
aggressor under control without harm to anyone involved. That is
not always possible, The Bad Guy is often : bigger. stronger,
more numerous and is often willing to use options you would not
consider (bats, tire irons, guns, knives and other assorted bad
things) The Bad Guy is by nature a coward and will be more
willing than you to strike out to inflict harm.

Randori is rarely a controlled demonstration of Nage practiced
technique. There is no reason to believe that a REAL fight would
be different. Sooner than later you will find yourself desperate
and tired, with few options.

Many people say "I would rather die than kill"

They forget that if you give yourself to your killer you may have
killed those you would have protected. Crime is not committed in
a vacuum, it is repeated over and over.

By failing to act, you
will have harmed, even killed, your killer's next victim.

Your goal is to bring conflict to an end, you can not expect to create a perfect solution.

AikiBiker
10-08-2000, 06:59 PM
I hope I never have the chance to find out.

If I do get the chance I hope I get the choice not to.

If I do get the choice I hope I will make the right one.

Every situation and person is different it isn't worth it to me cloud my mind with speculation or doubt. We can only react as the situation demands, and may God have mercy upon our souls.

Later

zen711
10-09-2000, 04:43 AM
Hi all,

I was quite fortunate to start my training with a great sensei who was a Karate instructor before he taught aikido, but more importantly was a parole officer. The man was like a father to me and several long talks were had about aikido/the world/survival/other arts..you name it. The conclusion, after endless nights of talks with me and countless other artists from other arts on the applicability of all techniques and training methods was this, and I believe it is most important to Aikidoists, who may find themselves constantly questioning if even after years, their aikido would help them defend him or her self. The conclusion is that all you need to become the single most dangerous fighter you can be is to keep an open mind and have someone knowledgable enough sit you down and explain what you are for a good ten minutes or so. By that I mean that really, people are nothing but animals. When we are threatened we usually forget about our animal survival instincts and give in to how society has made us think of things like guys becoming all macho and thinking they can turn into Bruce Lee and down the enemies in 3 seconds or that they have to be all brave and fight a certain way. But, as it was impounded in my mind, "that is the very thing that will have you training for a thousand years and then end up getting you killed." Sit a person down..have them look at their life and all they have to live for and see all that is important to them. Try to have them open their mind and see if they would really be willing to give that up just because they couldnt do something like fight "dirty" as they would probably see it. Once this is realized, you will have the most dangerous fighter of all, and they can go on and practice the arts for their true purpose, to better their lives as a whole. But should they be attacked, not some ridiculous quarrel with a drunk friend or something that can most likely be avoided, but the real fight, meaning the one for survival. They must learn to throw out norms and do what they need to survive..animal instinct. May sound a bit freaky but remember, my sensei and most people at the dojo were police officers, so damn did i hear some stories. So...one of the worst scenarios survivalwise...man or woman..you're being attacked, there are multiple people there...say you're spouse is there also being attacked by these people. Are you going to try and pull off technique, are you going to push your instinct to survive even farther away or r u going to do what should be natural to you. May sound sick but ya know what, my life threatened, anything, any body part of theirs that I can get a hold of is going to meet my mouth and Im gonna take as big a chunk out as possible. And should I have the chance they are going to loose both eyes or have everything I have going for their throat or groin no matter what. Are you laughing or grossed out yet? I was at first too. Then he hit me with "Ok, tell you what, you stay on the ground getting hit while you look over and your wife is being raped. So, then later on should you live, at the hospital you can say, Oh hey honey, I know that was horrible and Im really sorry but c'mon, biting someones finger clean off or putting my fingers to his eyes, thats just disgusting. Think you'll have the guts to say that or think you can stand that feeling. I realize i may be talking about the most extreme cases but I think that is what should be most important to people, not wondering if theyll be able to take their drunk friend and throw him across the room Above the Law style. yeah, that may be what they are hoping to do, which is why we must help and educate them and see that there is so much more to belearned from the art..from all arts for that matter. I believe with a true aikido mindste, most other things can be avoided or gotten around, with much of that skill involving ideas I've heard by teachers like Terry Dobson on how to handle situations and really join the mind of the "enemy". But unfortunately, the worst cases, the ones where there is no reasoning, no logic to it at all where they may be no hope of finding a way out is the one unavidable one where you fight for your life. I'd have no problem knowing a friend was about to be killed and he threw out all his years of aikido practice and all he ever said about being peaceful and healing or protecting the world and just kicked and punched the hell out of the attacker or even blinded him if need be. I rather go to the dojo and see my friend walk in rather than having sensei come over crying with some "bad news". Just thought I'd share the thoughts. Happy training all.

ian
10-09-2000, 05:22 AM
The problem with real situations is that you never really know how you will react, and that is why many of us do martial arts; to produce a useful instinctive behaviour.

I asked Yamada sensei whether he had ever used Aikido in a real situation(several years ago, so he may have changed his ethos on this!) His reply was that in a real situation you have to be more serious - which I took to mean that the least you do is make sure they cannot attack you again (for the time being).

A police friend of mine did shiho-nage on someone who was attacking him on the street and the person just got straight back up and punched him again.

I think the ideal of Aikido is not to hurt someone but I do not feel confident enough in my own ability to be able to fend of unlimited attacks. I do not believe that if you defend yourself without causing injury that the attacker will calm down. If anything he will become angrier because he looks a fool. Most young men fight to look tough and to look higher up in the pecking order. My policy is of equal power - I would like to use enough damage/aggression that he is put off attacking yet his spirit is not broken into a demeaning pulp where they could not forgive me (which would probably be the case if you permanently disabled someone) - people should be able to live to regret their actions, but at the same token the attacker should have learnt a 'lesson' and not be prepared to bully everyone he comes across - you don't just have a responsibility to the person you are fighting, you have a resonsibility to the next victim.

However, martial arts are instinctive so I always train to 'put someone out of the action' usually through a pin or more usefully through a dummy strike (cut if using a weapon) to an atemi point. (I'm probably not strong enough to kill someone with a single strike but I could kill someone with a strange hold; but these are far more controllable).

Conclusion: train to put them out of the action quickly, but not to kill or permanently disable.

PS. there is a difference between an attack and someone just trying to push you around, which can often be dealt with in a much milder manner, and which Aikido is also well suited (isn't nikkyo cool!)

ian
10-09-2000, 05:25 AM
PPS.
I have let someone hit me because I felt guilty for upsetting him. Luckily he was a boxer and the two punches were fast yet painless.

Mike Collins
10-09-2000, 06:21 PM
That was the absolutely best, most realistic post I have ever seen re: the effectiveness of Aikido.

I couldn't possibly agree any more. I would prefer that I was never forced to kill, but should it ever be a choice between me meeting my karma and allowing someone else to hurt or kill others, or taking a life, well as the punchline goes "He says you gonna die!"

I'd never considered the earlier posts thoughts about what happens by allowing a bad person to live, and I agree with that one too. We are all responsible for each other, good and bad. Not to take action can be the same as taking bad action.

Thanks

Anubis Gohan
03-18-2001, 04:22 PM
I would kill an attacker not if it came down to it say if he wastwo attack me with a knife i would break his arm if it was a gun i would break bolth his legs club or bat bolth his arms sward (it haas a more honrable meaning than a knife)we would dule
-Brad

PeterR
03-18-2001, 05:08 PM
I read the question in two possible ways.

Would I use techniques that could possible lead to an attacker's death?

Well a good number of the techniques we practice on a regular basis have that potential especially against a resisting nasty type person. Our level of response is broad but are there situations where I would use the full spectrum of techniques. Hopefully I would recognize when and where and hopefully my level of control is such that the ultimate ending is not the ultimate ending.

Would I purposefully execute a bad guy?

This is how I read several of the responses. You break into my house I have the right to kill you or (I am not sure if the last post was for or against) if you come at me with a knife I will break one arm, etc. If you have neutrallized an attack and then go on to inflict damage as punishment you are no better than the criminal.

I suggest that before the question is answered you ask yourself just which of the above versions you are responding to.

guest1234
03-18-2001, 06:06 PM
To kill or not to kill an opponent i think has been debated more than once here, and probably in many post dojo bar visits. With over twenty years in the military, this reminds me of an often quoted analogy between killing and sex: 'the people who really do it just don't talk about it'
I would recommend reading "On Killing" a book by Lt Col Dave Grossman. There are some suprising statistics in it. Firing rates among infantry on the front line in WWII was 15%; similar rates were found in retrospective studies of the American Civil War. Men drilled for months to react with firing a weapon when fired upon, and yet many died rather than fire at the enemy. Based on these numbers, the US Army used sophisticated psychological techniques and improved the firing rate to nearly 90%; and yet, more than fifty thousand bullets were fired for every enemy soldier killed.
The most ease in firing occured the further away from the enemy: long range missle or bombing easier than rifle, which is easier than knife, which is easier than hand to hand--Gene Hackman's movie 'BAT 21' shows a classic example of this. The psychological toll on most who did have to face killing another human was devastating. And for those who say we are basically animals, even very deadly species, while able to kill non-species memebers, resist killing each other. When pirana fight they do not use their teeth. Rattlesnakes do not bite each other.

DiNalt
03-18-2001, 06:17 PM
If you don't have a "program" of confrontation constantly running in your head, there will not be any confrontations.

I tested this involuntarily as I was walking through a "bad" neighborhood late at night.

A several local "toughs" passed by me as I walked, but I managed to get into the mode where I felt synchronized with them, thinking of them as human beings with their own issues and feelings... not as "bad guys".

I felt "clear" with them.

And I felt it reflect in them and come back to me.
I knew they wouldn't attack me.

Another thing was, when I was even younger and dumber, many years ago, I got into a stupid ego-based fight against 2 guys...

It ended up with both of them sitting on me, and one of them started to pound on my face - and at that moment I didn't have a clue about one-point, joining, or anything, but I switched into a no-hatred mode, I felt a part of something bigger than all of us... an "expansion" so to speak...
I saw that the guy above me was confused because he suddenly lost the desire to hit me.
And then they got up and walked away.

Yes they were still taunting me, etc, but they walked away.

Travis Baker
03-18-2001, 08:30 PM
Not very many situations would ever require you to make this decision. The easiest way to think of a situation that would force you to choose between life and death is two add a few guns. If someone breaks into your home... you have a gun and he has a gun... you know he very well is going to kill you... could you pull the trigger? I really hate to bring the issue of guns into this forum... and really it's just to give a more valid life and death situation.

Someone was pretty irate about this thread at the beginning... mentioning how Aikido is not meant to kill... and how it disgraces the art to put it to that use. The problem I see with this is that, if you are absolutely unwilling to kill someone... no matter what the circumstances... that is a horrible weakness. If someone wanted to kill you... or someone else... they could try as often as they like... they know they aren't going to die. Seems like a very unpractical way of thinking. I will be the first one to tell you that I know very little about Aikido. The reason I am drawn to it is because of the great respect for life it demands. If everyone in the world followed those ideals, then it wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is though... many people could give a rat's ass about your mercy... and if it comes down to pull the trigger or die... I am going to pull the trigger. It may stick with me for the rest of my life... but at least I have that life to live.

I can see how this would be different for some people. One reason is... I am very unreligious... and as of right now... I don't think there is anything like heaven after this life. I could be wrong on that one... and I truly respect those who have the faith to believe in that sort of thing. To my way of thinking... this life is all I have, so I want to make the most of it, also my life is my most precious possesion... anyone trying to take that away from me is trying to rob me of every single joy that life encompasses... and when you think about it like that... the decision doesn't seem that hard.

Please excuse if I restated things that have been said way too many times before. I also am not the best at expressing my opinion in writing... so I apoligize if it is a little hard to follow.

-Travis Baker

Prestige X
03-18-2001, 09:05 PM
It depends on the specific situation , i mean I'd say that personnaly i'd only kill someone if it was premeditated. I mean like if some dude raped my sister, or something completly horrible, then i'd kill the bastard. But if you just get into a scrap on the street then , no i dont' think i could kill someone for something of no importance.

ronin_10562
03-19-2001, 09:05 AM
I was taught to defend myself as well as I can. The goal is not to cause the attacker injury, but to prevent injury from occuring to me or my loved ones. If in the course of defending myself the attacker dies the responsibilty rests with the attacker. I have done all I can do avoid the situation. Now I will do all I can to make sure I don't get injured.

Sometimes it is suprisingly easy how people die. When I was younger I had witnessed a fight outside of a bar, the bartender tried to stop it but he was pushed aside and lost his balance hit his head on a curb and died. So every Aikido throw has the potential of killing the attacker. That is what makes Aiki Arts so dangerous.

Mark Cochran
03-19-2001, 10:29 AM
I feel it does depend on the cercumstances. Perhaps the greatest question is that of premedation. What is worse killing somebody in purly instinctual act of self defense or sitting down and planning it out. Some would state that the bible allows for murder in self defense whill others aurgue that murder is murder and there is no excuse. Frankly I would take every steep nescesary to prevent my taker from hurting me without crossing over that line. One of the greatest benifits of traning in the martial arts is the ablity not to kill and yet still be able to safely defend yourself. Many may question that in the face of people who have been convinced that traditional martial arts are useless in real street surcumstances. The trick to that is simple don't specialize. Train in multiple disaplines. Aikido is my core art but I am also learning a form of Karate and I'll probably continue to absorb new style all my life. I do all this so that when the time come to deliver or die I'll deliver and leave my attacker with a soar arm, a wounded ego, and nothing else.

Matt Banks
03-19-2001, 12:11 PM
A sensei once told me,

''its better to be tryed by 12 then be carried away by six (dead)''




Matt Banks

DiNalt
03-19-2001, 12:23 PM
Let's face it, we're a bunch of paranoid freaks.

I wish I knew the line between awareness and paranoia but so far I don't see any ;)

Matt Banks
03-19-2001, 03:40 PM
I think with the regular training aikidoka do, they lose sight of how dangerous the tecniques they learn to use each day are. There is a lot in magazines how certain MA tecniques wouldnt work etc, but there is often little talk about how much they COULD work. I know an Aikidoka who accidently blinded an attacker on a night out. After the situation he quite. He was never trained to be an aggresive thug in training, it just happened. I think the idea of killing someone, is something every serious aikido has to contemplate (and fear) when they have a quiet moment alone. I feel a death would be the ultimate failure. But there may be a terrifying moment in my life where, I had to kill someone to stop them killing/raping a family member or friend. I just want to say, this Aikido we learn can be a very dangerous thing, if things go wrong.


Matt Banks

guest1234
03-19-2001, 04:05 PM
I am reminded of a joke that goes: what do you do if attacked by several Aikidoka in a dark alley? Answer: clap twice and they will let go of you. i think a great example of that was an earlier post where someone used shihonage, then let the attacker up, who reattacked. Martial arts training does not necessarily train you to kill. it may teach you potentially deadly techniques, but not necessarily give you (thank God?) the ability to use them in killing. especially with your bare hands; another person posted he'd use a gun...for many even that is difficult. The book i mentioned earlier, "on Killing" talks about a well known (well, not to me, but i don't really know much) self-defense instructor who put oranges over the eyes of students so others could practice gouging out an eye (also mentioned as one technique above, i think), and how difficult it was to get students to actually go through with the gouging. I am envisioning the expressions on the faces of the senior students at my first--very spotless--dojo at even the thought of the mess.
it is interesting that one of the things that is allowing more soldiers, and perhaps the youth of today, to kill more readily than before is an acceptance of killing. The more the group dynamic talked up how it was OK to kill, the easier it became, especially for the small percentage of individuals who were predisposed (sociopathic tendencies). that kind of group talk and acceptance overcame a very real and deep seated reluctance to take a human life.
for many of those who did the talking, it may have just been posturing, which the author relates to a fierce show in the animal world designed to head off any real need to kill an opponent, by driving him into flight. But the posturing allowed certain individuals to cross over the line and kill.

Jim ashby
03-25-2001, 10:06 AM
Could I kill an attacker? Yes. Would I kill an attacker? Depends on the circunstances. I was once told "the quality of true mercy is not killing someone because you can".
Have fun.

TheAikidoka
01-26-2011, 09:39 AM
I asked my teacher a simular question once, he also happened to be ex S.B.S (special boat squardon), the navy`s equivalent to the S.A.S. He said to me, avoid the situation first!, if a fight cannot be avoided only injure when neccessary, If they wont stay down then disable them, if you must kill because there is a real danger to your life or to other`s, then kill quickly and cleanly because life cannot be waisted even in death. (I still don`t know what this last piece means).

My teacher has told me since, that he had to kill to save not only his life but the life of his friends and comerades. This I believe has haunted him for the rest of his life and he does not talk about this lightly. In fact it took a very long time for me to know him before he even told me he was a soldier, at least ten years of teacher student relationship.
Up until that point I always assumed he had always been a dental technitian as a trade, how little we really know people!

In Budo

Andy B

Tony Wagstaffe
01-27-2011, 04:54 AM
If he/she had every intention of killing me......... yes....:straightf

Anjisan
01-27-2011, 11:03 AM
I believe deeply in the philosophy of Aikido and it is what I strive for in my training. However, no matter how skilled one becomes there always are the X factor/factors that will come crashing in on the street. At the end of the day, I am going home to my family, so while my "intention" would not to be to kill, the interaction could unfold that way and in my eyes I would still be doing Aikido.

phitruong
01-27-2011, 12:04 PM
from the movie "Hitman"

"how does a good man decide when to kill?"

"If I think that a man means
to do me or my family harm...
then I will do whatever I can to stop him...
but beyond that...it's a crapshoot."

Tony Wagstaffe
01-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Not very many situations would ever require you to make this decision. The easiest way to think of a situation that would force you to choose between life and death is two add a few guns. If someone breaks into your home... you have a gun and he has a gun... you know he very well is going to kill you... could you pull the trigger? I really hate to bring the issue of guns into this forum... and really it's just to give a more valid life and death situation.

Someone was pretty irate about this thread at the beginning... mentioning how Aikido is not meant to kill... and how it disgraces the art to put it to that use. The problem I see with this is that, if you are absolutely unwilling to kill someone... no matter what the circumstances... that is a horrible weakness. If someone wanted to kill you... or someone else... they could try as often as they like... they know they aren't going to die. Seems like a very unpractical way of thinking. I will be the first one to tell you that I know very little about Aikido. The reason I am drawn to it is because of the great respect for life it demands. If everyone in the world followed those ideals, then it wouldn't even be an issue. The fact is though... many people could give a rat's ass about your mercy... and if it comes down to pull the trigger or die... I am going to pull the trigger. It may stick with me for the rest of my life... but at least I have that life to live.

I can see how this would be different for some people. One reason is... I am very unreligious... and as of right now... I don't think there is anything like heaven after this life. I could be wrong on that one... and I truly respect those who have the faith to believe in that sort of thing. To my way of thinking... this life is all I have, so I want to make the most of it, also my life is my most precious possesion... anyone trying to take that away from me is trying to rob me of every single joy that life encompasses... and when you think about it like that... the decision doesn't seem that hard.

Please excuse if I restated things that have been said way too many times before. I also am not the best at expressing my opinion in writing... so I apoligize if it is a little hard to follow.

-Travis Baker

I think that is a very natural reaction..... and I would take the same
reaction. For one thing, I'm scared of dying and I know my family would suffer if I was not there, they would survive, but less so....
All those that have faced dying would admit that too, survival takes over, religion stifles. You only regret it afterwards, and you would not forget, but time does heal quite a bit..... One does not have time to weigh up the pro's and cons, it's either you or them, I'd rather it be them.....

mickeygelum
01-27-2011, 01:18 PM
Is this discussion centered on ending a life empty handed, or with weapons, ie firearms or knife?

If it is empty hand v. empty hand, it is so inconceivable that you could articulate that you had to use lethal force , before using incapacitating force first. Having been in said situation, many a time and on a regular basis for almost a quarter of a century, your skills are your saviour.

Having been in situations, within said window, empty hand v. weapon not being a firearm, my skills were my saviour. When the threat was weapons, being firearms, my skills were my saviour.

The three particular situations were it escalated to lethal force, one involved firearm v. firearm, the others, empty hand v.non-firearm, my skills and training were my saviour.

Y'all can take this with a grain of salt, but, you will not know what you will do until that situation presents itself.

So, please consider yourselves fortunate that you have not, and hopefully never will, experienced the life drain from another human being.

Train well,

Mickey

Lyle Laizure
01-27-2011, 03:07 PM
In response to the poll:

I don't think the question is _would_ you kill an attacker, but rather- COULD you kill an attacker? I'm not talking fighting or anything, I'm talking if it came down to it, do you think you could muster up what it takes to end another human being's life?

Something to ponder,

-Nick

I think it would really depend on the situation.

Anjisan
01-27-2011, 03:26 PM
Is this discussion centered on ending a life empty handed, or with weapons, ie firearms or knife?

If it is empty hand v. empty hand, it is so inconceivable that you could articulate that you had to use lethal force , before using incapacitating force first. Having been in said situation, many a time and on a regular basis for almost a quarter of a century, your skills are your saviour.

Having been in situations, within said window, empty hand v. weapon not being a firearm, my skills were my saviour. When the threat was weapons, being firearms, my skills were my saviour.

The three particular situations were it escalated to lethal force, one involved firearm v. firearm, the others, empty hand v.non-firearm, my skills and training were my saviour.

Y'all can take this with a grain of salt, but, you will not know what you will do until that situation presents itself.

So, please consider yourselves fortunate that you have not, and hopefully never will, experienced the life drain from another human being.

Train well,

Mickey

I agree with what you are saying in "most" situations, but I can easily see a Kokyu throw on cement, attacker hits head on sidewalk or parking lot or whatever and either breaks neck(because unlike us-said attacker will probably not know how to roll) or hits head-ceberal hematoma-possible death. At least where I live, the self-defence laws revolve around proportionate level of force, thus I don't believe that only Ikkyu and likewise benign techniques have to be used. One might just hit their head and be dead.

graham christian
01-27-2011, 04:09 PM
In response to the poll:

I don't think the question is _would_ you kill an attacker, but rather- COULD you kill an attacker? I'm not talking fighting or anything, I'm talking if it came down to it, do you think you could muster up what it takes to end another human being's life?

Something to ponder,

-Nick

Sorry Nick. I think it's a dumb question. Everybody has the CAPACITY to kill an attacker so of course they could.

A better question would be: 'Could or would you stop an attacker?'

Or even better than that: 'Could you change an attacker?'

Regards.G.

Anjisan
01-27-2011, 04:20 PM
Sorry Nick. I think it's a dumb question. Everybody has the CAPACITY to kill an attacker so of course they could.

A better question would be: 'Could or would you stop an attacker?'

Or even better than that: 'Could you change an attacker?'

Regards.G.

Or how far would you be willing to go to stop an attacker? How much soul searching have you done? BY the time the attack happens it is probably to late.

Don Nordin
02-03-2011, 07:14 AM
yep

terry johnson
02-09-2011, 04:19 AM
samurai and aikido are linked and many a past master would sacrifice a limb or two, to deal the final blow to his assailant. I know times are different now, but maybe those times will resume at a later date

terry johnson
02-10-2011, 05:42 AM
PPS.
I have let someone hit me because I felt guilty for upsetting him. Luckily he was a boxer and the two punches were fast yet painless.

would it not be better just to say sorry and then hopefully avoiding conflict

SteliosPapadakis
02-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Yes

Alberto_Italiano
02-21-2011, 02:05 PM
never.

Firstly, it is highly overratd they idea that you could do so - it is more realistic and fighting oriented thinking that _you_ could be killed, for it means you entertain no romantic idea about fighting (romantic being: I show up and being so aikifabulous i beat him/her off like a nuisance...) but that you realize fighting is inherently dangerous. In this regard, being killed is not a function of the ability of your opponent, but precisely of his reckless lack of experience.
An experienced fighter is not exprienced inasmuch as s/he knows how to kill you (any idiot with a gun knows) but inasmuch as s/he knows how not to do it.

Consequently, i would never kill an attacker because doing so would prove that I am no martial artist but just another street thug.

However, I might break an arm - this only in case the adversary proved so dangerous to me that incapacitating him/her seems necessary (ie: s/he extracted and knife and randomly tried to slash or stab me, regardless of how or where).

Mattias Bengtsson
02-26-2011, 02:09 PM
No

inflicting injuries that could be lethal, possibly.

I could see myself causing a level of injuries to knock someone unconscious if that is what it would take to stop them, and if they
were to recieve a fatal injury in the process, that would be regretable.

But strike to kill? Nevar.

Also, in Sweden, killing someone even by accident in a fistfight if you're a martial artist would count as murder.. since our training should be enough to stop a fight without having to resort to lethal violence.

Dave Gallagher
02-26-2011, 03:47 PM
You must never have any doubt about killing an attacker who intends to either kill you or do great harm.. You will die if you suffer from the four sickneses of the heart (a kendo concept). Fear, doubt,hesitation and suprise. These will get you killed.

Dave de Vos
02-27-2011, 06:20 AM
You must never have any doubt about killing an attacker who intends to either kill you or do great harm.

I'm not very good at mind reading, so how do I know he intends to kill me and not just take my money?

Dave Gallagher
02-27-2011, 07:10 AM
Quote:

"I'm not very good at mind reading, so how do I know he intends to kill me and not just take my money?

.....Sadly in today's world a very high percent of muggings and robbery victims are left dead. You may do as you like but I am always going to assume that if he has a weapon he is going to use it. It has been shown in court cases that you may assume that an armed robber is going to kill you. Deadly force to protect yourself in this situation is not only understandable but should be expected.
If you have to figure it out you may wind up dead. This is just my opinion. I would rather protect myself and family rather than worry about the armed attacker's intentions. I would muce prefer to explain to the police how the attacker died than have them find me dead on the sidewalk.

Dave de Vos
02-27-2011, 08:10 AM
Quote:

"I'm not very good at mind reading, so how do I know he intends to kill me and not just take my money?

.....Sadly in today's world a very high percent of muggings and robbery victims are left dead. You may do as you like but I am always going to assume that if he has a weapon he is going to use it. It has been shown in court cases that you may assume that an armed robber is going to kill you. Deadly force to protect yourself in this situation is not only understandable but should be expected.
If you have to figure it out you may wind up dead. This is just my opinion. I would rather protect myself and family rather than worry about the armed attacker's intentions. I would muce prefer to explain to the police how the attacker died than have them find me dead on the sidewalk.

I guess extreme violence for self defense in the US is viewed differently than in my country (from Mathias' description I guess our law is more like Swedish law ).

If you kill an armed thief in the US, you might have a good chance of getting away with it. In my country even a police officer killing an armed attacker would have to face serious consequences if a court thinks there were non lethal options. Proportionate violence is a very tricky thing in my country.

I'm sure the percentage of muggings and robberies ending with a dead victim is much lower in Holland than in the US, because fire arms are rare here. So the odds of how these scenarios end up have to be taken into account.

Aikido-Sensei
02-27-2011, 02:17 PM
Well, i think that killing someone is wrong.

this is a good question about aikido and i would split it to fighting and Aikido

I think that basically taking someones life is not something that i need to do, it's like - not my job.

Yes, sure we all know how in some Aikido movies (steven seagal for example) the aikido master kills the bad guys...
but, as i see the real life and aikido, like i see in the dojo and on aikido videos, aikido is about peace. it;s even known way aikido started by O'sensei back then to avoid killing.
so, i say - from the side of Aikido - you need to use Aikido to find a way to avoid killing.

But, i have to be even more realistic and sometimes those moments in life like war - you face with this hard thing - that if you will keep him alive you will the one that will be dead, so in this position i believe that you need to keep yourself a live whatever it is - by self defense, even aikido if you found yourself in the situation.

I believe that Aikido can sometimes save you from this mistake of killing someone when you don't have to.

if some one hit you and you need to use self defense and you don't know how to fight using some martial art like aikido you can, by mistake - hit someone with a stone on his head - and kill him, aikido will give you the way to save yourself, stay protected - and.. save you and the attacker from unnecessary death.

Janet Rosen
02-27-2011, 03:09 PM
I assume that anybody breaking and entering my home is a potential rapist/killer - who may be thinking originally of only robbery but since I cannot read his mind, I don't know what other crime of opportunity may occur. And I've always believed fully in the right to self-defense, period, and will do what I have to do.

Dave de Vos
02-27-2011, 03:20 PM
I assume that anybody breaking and entering my home is a potential rapist/killer - who may be thinking originally of only robbery but since I cannot read his mind, I don't know what other crime of opportunity may occur. And I've always believed fully in the right to self-defense, period, and will do what I have to do.

Most breaking and enterings are burglaries. Indeed a crime, but not a capital crime (capital punishment does not even exist in my country). People have gone to jail in Holland for severely hitting a burglar with a baseball bat. I wouldn't want to go to jail for that.

Ofcourse there is a small chance that the breaking and entering will end up worse than a burglary, but would I kill any burglar entering my house (and go to jail for it) to eliminate this small chance? No I wouldn't.

Janet Rosen
02-27-2011, 05:46 PM
Dave, at least in the USA, no woman can safely assume that any break-in is "just" a burglar.
And I am not concerned with what the law says, I'm concerned with surviving assault.

jurasketu
02-27-2011, 06:31 PM
In the USA, killing an intruder (it is called a 'home invasion' - 'burglary' is something done when no one is home) is considered a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But the first words out of your mouth when you call 911 and talk to the police should be "I was in fear for my life." And really that should be "true".

Dave de Vos
02-27-2011, 07:34 PM
In the USA, killing an intruder (it is called a 'home invasion' - 'burglary' is something done when no one is home) is considered a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But the first words out of your mouth when you call 911 and talk to the police should be "I was in fear for my life." And really that should be "true".

I understand that violent deaths seem to be less unusual in the US than in Europe: http://violentdeathproject.com/, from that site:

http://violentdeathproject.com/charts/Homicide%20Rates%20Of%20Richest%20Countries%202009.jpg

jurasketu
02-27-2011, 09:57 PM
Dave-

I know... Sad hun? Then again the number of justifiable homicides in the USA is quite small - less than 250 per year. See link below for justifiable homicide stats by private citizen in USA.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_15.html

And this is an interesting table showing the circumstances of murders in the USA - a significant number were "arguments" - that is REALLY sad.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_12.html

-Robin

Dave de Vos
02-28-2011, 12:57 PM
Hi Robin. The high number of fire arms privately owned in the US seems to be a major cause. In the chart I posted you can see that Switzerland has a relatively high number of violent deaths too and it also happens to be more liberal towards privately owned fire arms.

Fire arms may be helpful for self defense, but as you pointed out, civilians tend to use them for unjustifiable violence instead. Which is sad indeed.

Dave

Janet Rosen
02-28-2011, 03:41 PM
Hi Robin. The high number of fire arms privately owned in the US seems to be a major cause.

There are many doctors who consider it one of the big public health problems, up there w/ obesity/diabetes/heart disease.

phitruong
02-28-2011, 03:58 PM
There are many doctors who consider it one of the big public health problems, up there w/ obesity/diabetes/heart disease.

yup, lead poisoning is a major health issue. ;)