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RED
08-04-2009, 08:38 PM
I remember my Sensei and Sampai complaining about something they called "5th kyu Shihan". I never understood what they were making fun of, and what they were frustrated with until recently.

I recently have been blasted with the attitude, eye rolls. I've had newly belted uke that purposely refuses to take ukemi than scoffs at your technique when an instructed technique fails. Sometimes when they take the wrong ukemi to get out of the technique I adjust my technique, but some of these uke create a big scene either about how stupid little me did the wrong technique, or about how the unexpected technique hurt them. (it doesn't hurt anything but their pride.) I'm getting corrected and told to do things obviously not as instructed. I've had my instruction refused, my time wasted, disrespected, scoffed at...-- :crazy:

I've pretty much tried to avoid training with particular people until their attitudes straighten out. I'm sure it won't be forever. I mean know I've been a pain for my fiance' to work with at times, but that's primarily because I enjoy arguing with him <3 <3 ;) but I argue with him, not purposely take bad ukemi just so I can scoff and useit as an excuse to instruct my Sempai fiance'.

But some of the stuff people are doing is just disrespectful, sometimes dangerous, and belligerent.

I'm trying not to have an issue with pride, to just brush it off and take a lesson in patience.

BTW: this isn't a problem for my dojo, just a problem for me with a few and select individuals. lol My dojo doesn't have a slue of people like this. A person or two pops up every now and then until they get their pride shot and they return in line.

Garth Jones
08-04-2009, 09:13 PM
Yes, this is a problem that comes up from time to time. You could try teaching them that, for basic practice, their job is to provide a clean attack and clean energy so that you can both work on that technique. You are very likely doing that for them and could no doubt 'mess' with them in all the same ways - you could show them that, and then show them good ukemi. And if they still don't get it, then change what you are doing and throw them some other way.

For kihon waza, uke and nage have an agreement on what will happen. It is not freestyle or sparing. If they make a scene about you changing technique on them, then they are trying to make you stick to this practice agreement while violating it themselves. They cannot have it both ways.

Hopefully they will see that being belligerent on the mat is not what aikido is about. If not, they probably won't stick around very long.

mathewjgano
08-04-2009, 11:22 PM
I remember my Sensei and Sampai complaining about something they called "5th kyu Shihan". I never understood what they were making fun of, and what they were frustrated with until recently.

I guess this falls under the "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" category. I can relate: I have a little knowledge, and I often try to make it do more than it can...AND I'm 5th kyu! Crap!:p
Anyhoo, my response when I find myself in the situation you descibed is to play dumb and ask sensei or one of my sempai to "correct" my technique. Usually there was correction for both, but sometimes my partner was also shown that I knew what I was doing (enough for the time being anyway). It's what we call a teachable moment in the edumacation field.

Janet Rosen
08-04-2009, 11:40 PM
For kihon waza, uke and nage have an agreement on what will happen. It is not freestyle or sparing

And hopefully the instructor is stressing this - the proper role of uke is to give the called for attack including staying alive with it and not rooting and freezing out nage.

Besides asking the instructor for help with my own technique, sometimes I've put on a very confused, puzzled look (ok, sometimes I don't have to pretend... :-) ) and asked, "excuse me, sensei, what is the proper ukemi for this?"

ninjaqutie
08-04-2009, 11:49 PM
My old sensei used to have a few sayings:
1.) Nothing is more dangerous then a green belt (because they they they know everything).
2.) If you need to know something, just ask a green belt.

Perhaps this syndrome seems to aflict 5th kyus in this style instead. :)

Ryan Seznee
08-05-2009, 06:32 AM
Yeah, I know who you are talking about, Red. A lot of what she does and the reasons for her poor ukime is because she does not want to be put in a joint lock. She did the same thing with me on that shihonage from iremi yokomen entrance. She lectured Mike (the instructor at the time) on how to do it properly, which he found amusing. I have personally determined that it will not bother me. These things have a way of working themselves out.

Nick P.
08-05-2009, 07:27 AM
These things have a way of working themselves out.

...hopefully the condition this poor person is afflicted with can be treated with one large single treatment of "back-of-head-being-bounced-off-the-mat".

Normally cures most cases of control, verbal flatulence, and ego.
Results may vary. Consult your sensei if more than one treatment is required.

:rolleyes:

NagaBaba
08-05-2009, 09:42 AM
As Peter R. wrote in one of similar topics, there the only one, definitive solution:

1. PAIN
2. if it is not working, apply more PAIN.

ruthmc
08-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Hi Maggie,

You are under no obligation to train with this person if she is behaving in such a way!

Avoid pairing up with her, get up as soon as possible after the demonstration and grab somebody else :)

It may also be worthwhile having a quiet word with Sensei about the problems you are having training with this person, and ask for their advice on how to handle it.

Let us know how you get on,

Ruth

brunotex
08-05-2009, 10:09 AM
I ditto what Szczepan and Peter R. said.

PAIN

Is this person is a super 5th kyu, he/she has super ukemi skills....

Ron Tisdale
08-05-2009, 10:17 AM
I wonder if the person involved reading this thread (your dojo is posted under your name) will help or hurt the situation.

No issues here...just sayin...

Best,
Ron

ramenboy
08-05-2009, 10:46 AM
I remember my Sensei and Sampai complaining about something they called "5th kyu Shihan".... newly belted uke that purposely refuses to take ukemi than scoffs at your technique...

i think every dojo has come across that phenomenon... here we call them 'bluedansha.'

at 4th and 3rd kyu (blue belt), all of a sudden we'll get these students with the urge to race away from senior students and teach everything they know to their 'kohai'... in one class. if it doesn't go unchecked, we get shihan all the way up through ikkyu. that's not good.

usually at 5th kyu, i'll tell the 'newly belted' students that just because they've past their first test, it doesn't mean they've mastered any of the techniques they've just performed.

the best piece of advice is to tell them, nicely, or maybe not, 'shut up and practice'

jbblack
08-05-2009, 12:16 PM
I've had my instruction refused, my time wasted, disrespected, scoffed at...-- :crazy:

I've pretty much tried to avoid training with particular people until their attitudes straighten out. I'm sure it won't be forever. I mean know I've been a pain for my fiance' to work with at times, but that's primarily because I enjoy arguing with him <3 <3 ;) but I argue with him, not purposely take bad ukemi just so I can scoff and useit as an excuse to instruct my Sempai fiance'.

.

Red, I think a lot of people have had that problem. my response is to work with these people whenever they are next to me and to offer no suggestions as to what they are doing. It is sometimes hard to deal with a lower rank trying to correct your every move, but remember they are excited that they feel they know something and that is how they share, yep, there is ego involved.

When in that situation I work on doing the technique to the best of my ability, if they are taking bad ukemi usually the instructor will notice and correct them.

The best thing to do is to do your own Aikido to the best of your ability. Invite them into your world with your attitude and positive nature and often you will see that they change on their own.

Cheers,
Jeff

Larry Cuvin
08-05-2009, 01:52 PM
+1 to Jeff's suggetion. It may be hard at first but if you can get some positive training out of anything no matter how negative they may appear, you would be a better person for it.

My 2 cents

Don_Modesto
08-05-2009, 05:59 PM
I wonder if the person involved reading this thread (your dojo is posted under your name) will help or hurt the situation.

No issues here...just sayin...Man, do great minds think alike, or what?

When I first started into the complaint, I looked immediately at "Dojo," and sure enough...

(Hey, Ron!)

Aikiscott
08-05-2009, 06:06 PM
In our Dojo this usualy happens around 3rd kyu. The standard remedy is the appropriate application of atemi.
I have also had 1st kyu's try to show me up whilst I was teaching a class and using them for Ukemi...

RED
08-05-2009, 10:32 PM
...hopefully the condition this poor person is afflicted with can be treated with one large single treatment of "back-of-head-being-bounced-off-the-mat".

Normally cures most cases of control, verbal flatulence, and ego.
Results may vary. Consult your sensei if more than one treatment is required.

:rolleyes:

Nah, they cry like heck, over react and everyone looks on us with shame thinking we are beating on them. A case of they like to dish but won't take correction, especially physical correction. Their ukemi needs help, they fear falling, so they over react to taking unexpected movements.

RED
08-05-2009, 10:36 PM
Red, I think a lot of people have had that problem. my response is to work with these people whenever they are next to me and to offer no suggestions as to what they are doing. It is sometimes hard to deal with a lower rank trying to correct your every move, but remember they are excited that they feel they know something and that is how they share, yep, there is ego involved.

When in that situation I work on doing the technique to the best of my ability, if they are taking bad ukemi usually the instructor will notice and correct them.

The best thing to do is to do your own Aikido to the best of your ability. Invite them into your world with your attitude and positive nature and often you will see that they change on their own.

Cheers,
Jeff

Your right, getting bent out of shape is playing their game as well. I can't get my ego burnt if I don't have one.
We have an instructor that is an infectious disease specialist. One day one of the 5th kyus actually corrected him wrongly while he was teaching them.. he just shrugged,laughed and said "whatever man, go with it." He sees peoples skin rot off everyday, he doesn't take anything to seriously, let alone himself. He's a good model for how to go with it I guess.

RED
08-05-2009, 10:42 PM
I think my 5th kyu shihan ripping my hakama with their man handling might of also got me. They put more effort in defeating me when I'm a nage than they do towards the ukemi.
And frankly they are starting to do nage techniques so screwy I'm getting tweeked joints and fallen on etc etc. ouchy.

RED
08-06-2009, 03:11 PM
Your right, getting bent out of shape is playing their game as well. I can't get my ego burnt if I don't have one.
We have an instructor that is an infectious disease specialist. One day one of the 5th kyus actually corrected him wrongly while he was teaching them.. he just shrugged,laughed and said "whatever man, go with it." He sees peoples skin rot off everyday, he doesn't take anything to seriously, let alone himself. He's a good model for how to go with it I guess.

I can not delete this post due to the way this forum works so I must explain it. I don't mean to say that the instructor didn't have complete control over his class, because he does and all his students respect him, even the more difficult ones. I was just saying he isn't one that's either quick to anger, or one that takes the ill-attitudes of his students personally. He maintains control over himself in order to apply his discipline and lessons to his students.

dalen7
08-07-2009, 08:10 AM
My old sensei used to have a few sayings:
1.) Nothing is more dangerous then a green belt (because they they they know everything).
2.) If you need to know something, just ask a green belt.


Doh! Im green belt. lol

Really is a shame though that this kind of attitude is going on in the dojo. It seems that perhaps this is case where the Sensei can help to guide things back on track.

I think this kind of attitude pops up when people havent grasped the full concept of aikido and make it to be something that its not... [not that I know it all] ;)

There is a tendency for people to think that Aikido techniques are one size fits all, and from my experience it really depends on the situation as to what technique best fits the situation... and resisting a certain technique only opens the door for another. [thus you get what you described where they are upset when you try something different - just some 'foggy' thinking apparently going on.] ;)

Anyway, this does seem like something that perhaps the Sensei can clarify... also this can be turned into a good practice of letting go of the ego, as something like this really can light it up as it were. :)

Peace

dAlen

ninjaqutie
08-07-2009, 10:43 AM
I just realized I have a lot of they's in my post that was quoted. HAHA. I know I didn't type that many they's.... but I did edit the post. Weird. Now I look like a studder typist. HAHA.

Has your sensei ever used them as uke for demonstrating a technique? That may help. Our sensei or sempai also has us do the technique if they are trying to show what uke should do. This may help in two ways. If your sensei isn't an overly compliant uke, and this person's technique isn't so good, then they will be standing there in front of the class trying to figure it out. OR, if they are watching and someone else is doing the technique, if the focus is brought onto the ukemi, maybe... MAYBE something will click for them.

Not all students should be subjected to the this route of head deflation, but it tends to work on most of the students (at least in my old dojo). I haven't seen this problem in my new dojo.

P.S. Dalen, as Kermit the frog always said "It's not easy being green." :)

RED
08-07-2009, 02:01 PM
Well my Sampai has been very sensitive over this issue, and has been allowing me to do things and assist me in being more assertive. I've been aided in establishing whatever amount of authority I should have.

Maarten De Queecker
08-09-2009, 11:24 AM
Red, I think a lot of people have had that problem. my response is to work with these people whenever they are next to me and to offer no suggestions as to what they are doing. It is sometimes hard to deal with a lower rank trying to correct your every move, but remember they are excited that they feel they know something and that is how they share, yep, there is ego involved.

When in that situation I work on doing the technique to the best of my ability, if they are taking bad ukemi usually the instructor will notice and correct them.

The best thing to do is to do your own Aikido to the best of your ability. Invite them into your world with your attitude and positive nature and often you will see that they change on their own.

Cheers,
Jeff
Being corrected by somebody of lower rank is only hard to take if you give rank too much importance. It's not because you are, for example, a sho-or nidan, and your partner is a 5th or 4th kyu, that he or she will not have any good ideas.

My mantra in life is: always be open to learn from anyone.

mathewjgano
08-09-2009, 03:45 PM
Being corrected by somebody of lower rank is only hard to take if you give rank too much importance.

...or if there's some other value being impeded upon, such as the open-mindedness you also described.

lbb
08-09-2009, 05:55 PM
Nah, they cry like heck, over react and everyone looks on us with shame thinking we are beating on them. .

Really, "everyone" thinks you're beating up on them? Your sensei and sempai don't understand what's going on? If true, that's a difficult situation, all right.

RED
08-09-2009, 07:21 PM
Really, "everyone" thinks you're beating up on them? Your sensei and sempai don't understand what's going on? If true, that's a difficult situation, all right.

Not true, that's an overstatement on my behalf. If you work out with this person, then you understand.So anyone who's pulled this move on this person gets it. But the over reaction makes everyone in proximity, and you get comments about being gentler... it's just a mild annoyance. People think I'm hurting them. Two people do this move actually, and it makes people close to me look like I'm hurting them, when I'm like not even touching them. They do make an embarrassing scene over it.

Sensei understands, most Sempai that work with them understand.

BTW: There are two people in particular that gives me problems. One is the same rank as me, the other is below me. I really can't do anything but try to work it out with the girl that's the same rank, or ignore it. As for the lower rank, my sampai is working to help me.

Lyle Bogin
08-10-2009, 10:26 AM
If you plead for instruction, they may be compelled to show you what they are doing or what they expect. In order to prove that their teaching is correct, they will start to fall. Their weaknesses will be exposed as you study their way.

Slowly you can bring your own tricks into play.

Lose to win ;)

RED
08-10-2009, 12:28 PM
If you plead for instruction, they may be compelled to show you what they are doing or what they expect. In order to prove that their teaching is correct, they will start to fall. Their weaknesses will be exposed as you study their way.

Slowly you can bring your own tricks into play.

Lose to win ;)

lol, not a bad idea. Sometimes feeding the ego is the best way to have peace. And all I really want is a calm training day. They can think they are better than me all they want, I just don't want outbursts or people muscling me around to prove stuff. I'm not ending my career early to prove that some other guy is stronger than me.

RED
08-10-2009, 12:40 PM
A confession: I'm guilty of holding on to a nage just to be a jerk. I was working with one of the two guys that's been giving me trouble lately. Back when he was training for 5th kyu I showed up to help him train for his test. He avoided working with me, he fell asleep on the couch, drank tea and talked on the phone to wait and see if one of our black belts that was there would help him instead of me I think. So I sat on my knees for like a half hour wasting my night. He kept saying "oh, i just wanna meditate today." But when a higher ranked student showed up he jumped at the chance to have this guy teach him 5th kyu.
Well anyways, the higher rank guy asked me to take uke while he instructed the annoy dude. Well anyways we were doing tenchi-nage and he kept ending the technique leaning over me like he was bowing. He thought he was doing great and started whipping me around fast, and one time my hands slipped off of him because he was really sweaty and I didn't get a grip before he started whipping about.
Immediately he signed and sort of yelled at me, "You know the uke is suppose to hang on right!?" My blood boiled.
So for the next go I hung on tight and when he finished bowing over me incorrectly I dropped to my knee and threw him off to my right side hard. He takes ukemi hesitantly to begin with so when he was surprised he just sort of went splat! He has been holding a grudge ever since I think. .

RED
08-10-2009, 12:45 PM
i is a turn me use in my dojo, so I use it. .

"term we use.." lol sorry,, see typos abound.

ninjaqutie
08-10-2009, 06:04 PM
Every dojo seems to have these people. Usually someone has to put them in their place. It annoys me as well. I am a new nobody where I am (been training 5 months) and at one point a senior student came back from a hiatus. This person was quite rough with me and appeared to be putting me in my place. Their hard throws didn't effect me any though since I am used to throws. In the end, a couple people told me that they thought that person was trying to put me in my place and show they were better then me. No problem... they ARE better then me! The part I didn't get was that I did nothing to challenge this person except for maybe showing up for class. For a while, every stretch I did, they did as well. It annoyed me, but I didn't let it get the best of me. Now we are sort of..... frenemeys if you will.

Oh, I didn't mention that this person is 3rd kyu and I am 6th. Again... what is there to be intimidated or feel threatened by. HAHA.

aikidoc
08-10-2009, 06:40 PM
In my experience, these people don't stick around because they can't be taught. As my friend Gary Chase says, they've got it all "knowed up". Generally, they are flashes in the pan and move on either because they know it all or because they realize they acted like they knew it all and when the realize how stupid they are they want to save face.

lbb
08-10-2009, 07:29 PM
In my experience, these people don't stick around because they can't be taught. As my friend Gary Chase says, they've got it all "knowed up". Generally, they are flashes in the pan and move on either because they know it all or because they realize they acted like they knew it all and when the realize how stupid they are they want to save face.

...leaving those of us who really do know it all to remain behind and feel smug about it all.

Sometimes it's very easy to spot the flaws in others that we ourselves manifest, perhaps in different ways. That being the case, dwelling on others' flaws should probably be taken as a warning sign.

RED
08-10-2009, 08:09 PM
I think everyone has a lesson to teach us. It just isn't as apparent what that lesson is when the person is being annoying.

Walter Martindale
08-11-2009, 03:36 AM
(snip)

BTW: when someone refuses to let go when thrown quite hard I've yet to fall with them... I'm luckily very low centered and naturally low to the ground, and I had an instructor that held on to me when I threw him to teach me good posture and good stance since I was a 6th kyu, so I've yet to land on the buggers. (I don't trust their ability to get out of the way if I fell on them, which makes me think it is a stupid move on their part even more so.)
However, the person that likes to hold on to me just for the sake of being a difficult uke hurt her shoulder. I had good posture and finished low, she was still holding on. My body didn't give to the force but her shoulder did. I really didn't consider her trying to "prove" she was more skilled was worth sitting out to her or anyone else. It just frustrates me. I wanna scream "What is the problem? ! Just train and stop thinking your anything you're not, enjoy yourself and don't take it so seriously. I mean seriously, at 5th kyu you aren't going to impress anyone anyways, so cut it out!" I mean lol, I sure the heck don't impress anyone, I'm not going to break my neck trying.

It COULD be that the person holding on during ukemi might not be that confident with the ukemi? Not being there it's hard to say, but if the person is a 5th kyu, depending on the technique and the needed ukemi, this person might just be trying not to land hard.

I'm a shodan in judo and aikido (which means I'm just ready to start understanding both - maybe) and sometimes I end up in a position as uke, not knowing what the heck's happening to me. That's a lot more rare than it was when I was go-kyu, but if I wasn't getting the occasional dose of confusion at aikido, I'd probably quit.
Walter

Maarten De Queecker
08-11-2009, 06:57 AM
Every dojo seems to have these people. Usually someone has to put them in their place. It annoys me as well. I am a new nobody where I am (been training 5 months) and at one point a senior student came back from a hiatus. This person was quite rough with me and appeared to be putting me in my place. Their hard throws didn't effect me any though since I am used to throws. In the end, a couple people told me that they thought that person was trying to put me in my place and show they were better then me. No problem... they ARE better then me! The part I didn't get was that I did nothing to challenge this person except for maybe showing up for class. For a while, every stretch I did, they did as well. It annoyed me, but I didn't let it get the best of me. Now we are sort of..... frenemeys if you will.

Oh, I didn't mention that this person is 3rd kyu and I am 6th. Again... what is there to be intimidated or feel threatened by. HAHA.
Some people just love to show how big their peni... I mean ego is. Just nod and smile, and if he is too rough, tell him you don't want to train with him anymore. You could also suddenly exploit an opening in his technique and throw him instead. That just might show him that he is not nearly as good as he thinks.

Gernot Hassenpflug
08-11-2009, 08:42 AM
We used to jokingly refer to these blokes as "14th kyu's"... now of course I realize the joke was partly on me; but it's still a good joke! "5th kyu shihan"... I like that :D

thisisnotreal
08-11-2009, 09:09 AM
Sometimes it's very easy to spot the flaws in others that we ourselves manifest, perhaps in different ways. That being the case, dwelling on others' flaws should probably be taken as a warning sign.

Hey! I resemble that comment.
;(

ninjaqutie
08-11-2009, 11:31 AM
I can handle the throws this person does and I am not going to avoid working with them. I think that would just make the problem worse. I am civil and work with them when neccessary. :) I must admit though, they were surprised when they threw me into a breakfall and I landed just fine. They said "You can do breakfalls!?!" I merely shrugged and said "I guess so." HAHA! I never did tell this person about my 8 plus years of being thrown around in aikijitsu. :D Sometimes you just have to have a secret to yourself...

RED
08-11-2009, 07:21 PM
I can handle the throws this person does and I am not going to avoid working with them. I think that would just make the problem worse. I am civil and work with them when neccessary. :) I must admit though, they were surprised when they threw me into a breakfall and I landed just fine. They said "You can do breakfalls!?!" I merely shrugged and said "I guess so." HAHA! I never did tell this person about my 8 plus years of being thrown around in aikijitsu. :D Sometimes you just have to have a secret to yourself...

Our school teaches these silent/soft break falls. Have you had any experience in that? I'm not sure exactly what aikijitsu might teah in regard to soft ukemi. :hypno:

MattMiddleton
10-15-2009, 11:51 AM
My mantra in life is: always be open to learn from anyone.

Everyone has something to teach, even if it's what not to do.

Lyle Laizure
10-17-2009, 01:24 PM
LOL. There always seems to be one in every dojo. I like the use of a correction switch. lol

heathererandolph
10-17-2009, 03:45 PM
Well, if you offered to help that guy train for his test and he just waited around to see if anyone else showed up, that seems pretty rude to me. I don't think that students should be fighting each other! It was probably not too good an idea to join in on helping him once someone else showed up, since you were already teed off at him for ignoring you earlier and were sure to take the next thing he did the wrong way! Also, if he didn't want you to help because he doesn't like you, things were not bound to improve. There could have been a part of you that wanted to prove to him that you really are a worth partner for him. The thing is, his feelings have nothing to do with your skill as a martial artist. He could be an idiot, who knows? I think it is important to somehow keep the peace within yourself and to not let these things affect you as much. It is usually difficult to say if an action in Aikido is meant to be rude or meant personally. If that guy didn't want to work with you, not knowing you but thinking of a student in my class, I don't like to see that kind of behavior. It could possibly be sexism. I think you have to look at what you can and cannot do. You can try hard to establish your credibility. I think as a woman that you have to be extra sure that people see you as a serious student. Arguing with your fiancee during class is not a great idea. You don't want to call attention to the fact that you are in a relationship during class because people will think you are only here because of him. Sorry to tell you this but it is the truth. What we are learning in Aikido is to remain calm under stressful situations. I think you could work on not immediately taking something as a criticism, EVEN if it could be taken as one. Just try to stay out of that mindset. You can't do much about such people, I'm sure they will continue to be a pain. I don't suggest avoiding but what is a little more dignified is to try to pick them for techniques where they will be less of a pain.

Infantryman1990
10-18-2009, 02:00 AM
I have a wonderful instructor once say that when this sort of things occurs during class, in the dojo, you simply must bow to the person.

Bow to them, apologize for wasting their time and ask them to find a training partner who would be more appropriate as they surely are far too good for you to train with. Then walk away and join in with someone else.

The instructor will understand; your new partners will understand; and the 5th kyu Shihan will be standing in their own feces (pardon my vulgarity, I tried cleaning it up).

Maarten De Queecker
10-18-2009, 07:04 AM
I have a wonderful instructor once say that when this sort of things occurs during class, in the dojo, you simply must bow to the person.

Bow to them, apologize for wasting their time and ask them to find a training partner who would be more appropriate as they surely are far too good for you to train with. Then walk away and join in with someone else.

The instructor will understand; your new partners will understand; and the 5th kyu Shihan will be standing in their own feces (pardon my vulgarity, I tried cleaning it up).
That's countering arrogance with more arrogance. Works counterproductive in both ways. Just "break" a technique of the "shihan", so he sees that he's not exactly doing it right. Should be enough of a shock to make him stop doing that.

ninjaqutie
10-19-2009, 02:21 PM
Our school teaches these silent/soft break falls. Have you had any experience in that? I'm not sure exactly what aikijitsu might teah in regard to soft ukemi. :hypno:

I don't really know what you mean, so I guess we don't. HAHA. In my aikido dojo, usually our falls are quiet and smooth, but our breakfalls are fairly loud because of slapping. In my aikijitsu dojo all of our falls had to be loud. If they weren't, they were not correct. We had to slap loud and hard and a loud kiah better accompany it.

Needless to say, after much practice, I have gotten away from the harder falls and slaps and more to the softer landings. HOWEVER, my slaps still are pretty loud when I use them. People usually ask if I am okay after those throws. I guess my slaps make it seem as if I am slamming into the mat. Sensei and a few of the yudansha are used to it now and now longer show any concern, but some of the others still do. :) I just hop up off the mat and say I am fine and grab them again.

Infantryman1990
10-23-2009, 12:53 AM
That's countering arrogance with more arrogance. Works counterproductive in both ways. Just "break" a technique of the "shihan", so he sees that he's not exactly doing it right. Should be enough of a shock to make him stop doing that.

I would respectfully disagree.

It is not arrogant to humbly walk away from a situation.

"Breaking" the bad technique of a know-it-all is not my place in a dojo, nor should it be, unless I am the instructor or am acting in the role of a Sempai.

I'll leave it to the readers of this forum to judge for themselves if bowing away from a false confrontation show more arrogance than breaking a technique to "shock" him in order to make him stop doing that

ze'ev erlich
10-23-2009, 01:56 AM
As Peter R. wrote in one of similar topics, there the only one, definitive solution:

1. PAIN
2. if it is not working, apply more PAIN.

Dear Szczepan Janczuk,
I want to believe that what you wrote here was a joke. I don't think that it is the student's "job" to inflict pain in order to teach each other proper training methods. It is the instructor and senior's job to take care of this issue and explain the reason and common sense of the role of uke in Aikido.

By inflicting pain to a "5th kyu shihan" you will cause no more than injuries and negative relationship in the dojo.

Power games between students are against our dojo's ettiquete.

Jay Gatsby
01-28-2010, 11:28 AM
Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I've run into a similar situation in my current dojo and would appreciate some advice.

We recently had a woman join us from the West Coast where she had studied under a 6th dan in AAA up to blue belt with a black stripe (3rd kyu). If I recall correctly, she hadn't practiced Aikido in a few years before coming to our dojo. Regardless, our sensei allowed her (as a matter of courtesy) to continue wearing her belt in our dojo (to the best of my knowledge, he never tested her on the techniques up to her level) before doing so (he is always on the lookout for higher-ranking belts to add to our young dojo, so I presume he took her at her word). I have three years in an ASU dojo (up to 3rd kyu) from 15 years ago and another 1.5 years in my current AAA dojo.

Let me start out by saying that I will be the first to admit that my technique can use refinement. However, in working with the aforementioned blue belt with a black stripe, I've found that her techniques are sloppy and ineffective (even the most basic ones). When they don't work on me (I don't resist out of spite, but I am muscular and it is hard to take my balance if the technique isn't executed properly), she gets frustrated and accuses me of being difficult. When I point out during a technique that her arm, foot or body is out of position, she gets annoyed and insists that she has nothing to learn from me. In particular, she has said on more than one occasion that I shouldn't be "teaching" her anything because she is the senior student, and if our sensei wanted me to teach her anything he would have said so. The same applies to situations where she has executed a technique, but differently than our sensei (and his sensei when he is in town for a seminar) wants to see it at test time. I calmly try to explain the differences, but she won't listen and insists that because her former 6th dan instructor taught it her way, she's right and I'm wrong. In a nutshell, she seems to be elevating form (senpai/kohai) over substance. From my perspective, neither her technique nor her attitude are emblematic of being senpai.

Needless to say, I'm not the only person in our dojo to have noticed this sort of attitude. However, I am the only one who has tried to inculcate her into the way our sensei likes techniques to be executed. Not to sound arrogant myself, but at least two people in my dojo who are one rank above me often rely on me to show them how a particular technique is done, and pretty much every white belt in my immediate vicinity tries to pair up with me when it's time to practice a technique.

I could adopt the attitude some in this thread have espoused, namely, let her do poor technique on me without comment or avoid her altogether. Neither is a tenable solution in my mind.

**EDIT**

There is more to the foregoing story, but to avoid identifying the guilty party, I kept such details out of my post. I did speak with my sensei about it after practice. He noticed a bit of her behavior, but when I filled him in on the rest of it, he seemed to understand the source of my frustration. Perhaps he will watch her carefully from now on, and if her attitude continues, he will do something about it.

C. David Henderson
01-28-2010, 12:18 PM
I could adopt the attitude some in this thread have espoused, namely, let her do poor technique on me without comment or avoid her altogether. Neither is a tenable solution in my mind.

Why? You seem to feel responsible for teaching her.

....I did speak with my sensei about it after practice. ... Perhaps ... if her attitude continues, he will do something about it.

Okay, that sounds like a good solution. In the meanwhile, what will you do? Correct her?

Even if she is violating some expectations about how she should behave, in our dojo at least it really would not be your job to fix it. From that perspective, even if she was wrong, she was also right.

You talk about her "poor technique;" is it clear to you how much of the deviation between her technique and your expectations reflects poor execution and how much reflects a difference in style from her old school? If you allow her to do the technique, just take ukemi, and let your sensei be responsible for teaching, you may learn something no one else at your dojo can teach you.

FWIW.

David

JCT53
09-26-2010, 07:42 PM
...hopefully the condition this poor person is afflicted with can be treated with one large single treatment of "back-of-head-being-bounced-off-the-mat".

Normally cures most cases of control, verbal flatulence, and ego.
Results may vary. Consult your sensei if more than one treatment is required.

:rolleyes:

The funny thing is that for a while I was like that. I wouldn't take ukemi. So, one day, I got SLAMMED!! Head hit thematt, air left my lungs, and I haven't acted like that yet.

Great treatment :)

Gorgeous George
09-26-2010, 09:26 PM
I was in a class a few days ago in which a man took his grading for 5th kyu at the start; later, when we practiced suwari waza shomen-uchi irimi nage, I performed shomen-uchi, and he explained to me that the way I was doing it made it impossible for him to do the technique...I was cutting down, in a straight line, with my hand, down his centre - does that make it impossible for someone to perform an aikido technique - is that like kryptonite to an aikidoka!?!

I think he expected me to strike, then finish by losing my balance as I missed him (like the samurai trained to do, and all that), making it possible for him to perform the technique.
Quite frustrating; next time, i'll call the instructor over, I think.

He's previously told me that the way I received prevented him from performing a technique...I didn't know what the hell he was talking about then, either.