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thisisnotreal
07-30-2009, 11:45 PM
Has training in non-Aikido Martial Traditions changed your body?
Has it mostly made it stronger and better? Or weaker and worse in some ways? The bodyskill being discussed is said to 'be an investment for old age'.
Can you really raise your arch, if it falls? Can you realign your body (within reason) so that your knees stop making grinding sounds? Can you balance your shoulder on both sides? what is the ultimate limit of balance?

some thoughts:
was watching some old people folded over walking. all hunched forward. they were leaning to get away from the groundpath thru their body, i think. because the joints and alignment hurts to hold, if standing erect. mostly due to soft tissue damage? skeletal alignment? dunno. but they were running away from the pain. i think maybe you have to run into the pain. but you have to find, and know, the _right kind_ of pain (not pain at the end of a joint's range of movement, say). suffering through the right kind of pain will change and improve you, right? (that's obvious; lifting weights is that, for sure). So how is this 'it' different? i think at "It's" heart it is about not flexing at all. or the enemy of 'it', if you will.
But to train _that_ i think you have to first flex them. then master them.
Postulate: "Ability to flex all your muscles at full intensity through all their ranges of movements and in any combination is highly valuable and desirable". Postulate: "if you find your muscle cramps at any position; you should let the cramp come to completion". is that crazy talk? or does that make you stronger? it seems to restore balance. Resets the length-tension relationships that were askew. Can you exploit charlie-horses for the powers of good? i think yeah.

Not that it's 'it':
I thought 'The Permanent Pain Cure; The Ming Method' is truly a good book. It helped me a lot to get stronger and balance the body. I think you can learn how to be 'in' your body better. You learn how to work at high muscular tension safely and how to safely 'sit-in/engage' your fascial connections. Simultaneously, ostensibly, it will realign you. (using Sherrington's law, Davis's law and things from CMA, i read). Lots of self-discovery and good stuff. The book has 3 parts; only #2 is truly unique(1st part is water/supplements, 2nd part; stretches/PNF, 3rd fitness). definitely recommend it. no; i'm not getting kickbacks; just think everyone should at least see the book.

Anyone ever do pistols and (attempt) 1 arm pushups like in 'Naked Warrior' by Pavel Tsatsouline? Learned lots doing that but I hate it. But I can feel the tension and self-alignment forces at work afterwords, for sure.
just some thoughts, like i said.
you guys got any tips for a joe schmo?

p.s. i read somewhere about making 'the body to be jealous of itself' in this ('It')context..does that mean anything to anyone?

Best,
Josh

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 12:23 AM
does anyone do any crazy stuff..
.. like trying to literally do the opposite of what you are _actually_ doing? Like pushing away from the chin up bar while you are actually doing a pull up? Or pulling towards the ground when you are actually doing a push up?(in some circles; this must be remedial i realize) Here, i mean _literally_ engaging those muscles that would be opposing? is this the way to raise the DC offset level of muscular tension (maintaining the balances) in the body? Is this the 'where' we can choose strength over flexibility? Can the hara/dantien be the trim-pot to balance the whole whetstone-bridge that is the body? Is this the contradictory work, spoken of? it sure is crazy, if not at least 'contradictory' ...seems more like crazy than an argument... to me, at least).
Another example: like standing, shoulders width apart, and folding forwards into a stretch w/ hands on ground. really stand for a while. then balance on the bone/jin paths - arms & legs. relax deeply. Then get _into_ the muscles..really engage them, flexing and stretch...get into the windings.then relax. then while flexing/surging the legs and deeply relaxing into the stretch of the legs...literally try to lift your feet off the ground. as hard as you can. be brave .. swallow the pain. I'd swear that something is rising. like a 'pulse' of 'flex'. this doesn't have a thing to do with anything related to 'rising energy', does it?
know that i am talking about things i barely understand. (how many of ya picked up on that?) yeah i know. just sharing..
just sharing.


does anyone do any crazy stuff..

well, do ya?

Tom H.
07-31-2009, 05:51 AM
Has training in non-Aikido Martial Traditions changed your body?
Has it mostly made it stronger and better? Or weaker and worse in some ways?
Yes. Yes. No.

In two years I went from having one of the most non-athletic, non-martial, unconnected, imbalanced, unstable, uncontrolled body you can imagine to reading comments like this:
I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.

That was last year. I continue to train with Dan & co., and earlier this year I started olympic powerlifting. On Rob's "entirely different scale of power", I'd say I was well below 1 out of 10 at the time he made those comments, and I'm now *maybe* somewhere between 1 and 2).

Tom

jss
07-31-2009, 07:17 AM
Has training in non-Aikido Martial Traditions changed your body?
Has it mostly made it stronger and better? Or weaker and worse in some ways? Yes. Yes. No.
<snip>, and earlier this year I started olympic powerlifting.
That's funny/interesting. My answers would be: yes, yes, yes. Training in internal skills has decreased my upper body strength, which I consider to be a good thing because you shouldn't be using it.

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 07:33 AM
Joep - dunno. I thought it was more about skillfully and selectively using the strength. not that strength itself is bad and should be reduced to below some threshold...but more about finding and using it in the right way...once you can 'get out of your own way'. (That said; surely being hulking & ripped probably doesn't help IS...). What u think?

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 07:48 AM
Yes. Yes. No.

In two years I went from having one of the most non-athletic, non-martial, unconnected, imbalanced, unstable, uncontrolled body you can imagine to reading comments like this< (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216096&postcount=11):

Rob Liberti wrote:
I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.




Tom,

Nice, man! Hah! That sounds pretty impressive. Would you be able (/willing) to give any concrete examples of changes you noticed _in_ the body?
For instance: What changed/strengthened/loosened/tightened or improved bodily to achieve those results? I am assuming that the bodymethod and shugyo used is proprietary and not discussable. That's fine( :( ). Although i was wondering: can you say anything about the kinds of work? Is it like 80% solo? ZZ (/standing?)? mostly partner? Is there anything specific you can share or advice about what it is being trained? Cheers man, thanks for the post.
Best,
Josh

jss
07-31-2009, 07:54 AM
Josh, there's a reason I said 'upper body strength', as you can read in this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=137791&postcount=20) by Mike Sigman. It's the reason why muscled legs and thin, wiry arms are a possible indication of internal strength.

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 08:08 AM
Joep- thanks. I hadn't seen that. interesting. fwiw; i remember reading Takeda's forearms were huge but arms small.

Kevin Leavitt
07-31-2009, 08:44 AM
Yes. Since meeting up with Mike Sigman, Rob John, Ark, and Toby Threadgill in the last 2 years....and a few other things...it changed my perspective on my training and what I need to do in order to get better.

I dabbled in this stuff for a while, not really giving it the commitment that it required. (I still liked to be "entertained" by going to the dojo and rolling or doing waza). However, a few injuries, and the level of frustration of not really getting anywhere, I decided to change a bunch of things in the last 7 months.

One, Diet. Losing 35 lbs has helped. Another 22 to go and I will be down in my BMI range. Already have Triglycerides back to normal as well as cholesterol. Working on the BP thing.

Two, I took up a pretty serious Yoga practice. Bikram is working for me. I see many parallels between what I have learned from these gentleman. Breathing, building the suit, core, strength of the core etc.

While the Yoga may not be as specific to martial application...it is available to me locally and I can practice it daily under competent supervision.

The more I do, the stronger, more connected I am becoming. Mike Sigman tried to get me to conceptualize and feel the "suit" as he calls it. I could not 18 months ago. I am starting to kinda get what he is saying now....a little....felt the stretch through my fingers last week as I did a couple of asana and connected it with my breathing.

(thanks Mike!).

How have I benefited?

Well my backpain is almost non exsistent. The Numbness in my leg/foot from Sciatica is gone. I am gaining feeling back in my right arm from damaged C5/6/7. so that is good.

I feel better overall in my body...and at least feel like I am beginning to reduce my use of my upper body in Waza...although I have a way, way long way to go.

BJJ is much more measurable and quantifiable..although many would say this is external...I don't care...I am able to move better, with more efficiency and I am beating more guys and holding my own more than I was a couple of months ago.

So, my take on all this Solo training stuff is that it works and you must do it.

For me 80% of my training time is now spent on solo work. I will continue to comit to this for a while cause this is what I need. At times I may go to 50% or 20%...it just depends on alot of factors.

What is the secret?

I think just doing something. Doesn't matter to me if it is Mike Sigman's, Arks, or even a really good Yoga practice.

You can't afford to just sit back, think about it, and do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. I wasted alot of time over the past 2 years doing this. Jump in and start breathing and stretching and moving your body in some way. There is enough out there on You tube and in Yoga to start doing something.

I think there is a certain amount of base work/conditioning that is necessary for you to really benefit from "master" level instruction.

This was apparent when I got with Ark. I lacked it and it was evident to me. Hopefully the next time I get with him, I will be better prepared to physically work with his training.

Anyway...it is fun, and I like how I am feeling in my body. I like the fact that I really feel I am doing a practice that will allow me to train as I progress from middle age to old age and maybe I won't be hobbling around the dojo with a cane and a blown out back.

rob_liberti
07-31-2009, 09:12 AM
My back muscles are changing and I'm not sure I like it yet. I have decided to embrace transition.

I think yoga is wonderful too. Kevin, I think you'll really like acitve isolated stretching as well. I find it more efficient for resolving body issues than any yoga. I find yoga much better than AIS for de-stressing and emotional support - you know my "other" issues. :)

Josh, it seems like you really would get a lot of your questions answered by attending one of any of those guys' workshops.

Rob

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 09:29 AM
Hi Kevin,
Nice post. Thanks for taking the time.
I see many parallels between what I have learned from these gentleman. Breathing, building the suit, core, strength of the core etc.

The more I do, the stronger, more connected I am becoming. Mike Sigman tried to get me to conceptualize and feel the "suit" as he calls it. I could not 18 months ago. I am starting to kinda get what he is saying now....a little....felt the stretch through my fingers last week as I did a couple of asana and connected it with my breathing.
right on.
Can you say anything about connecting with the breath? Certainly has to do with keeping a baseline of intraabdominal pressure, doesn't it? Kind of like the valsalva maneuver, but with the epiglottis open? (I may be talking BS) .. but that is what I found.



Well my backpain is almost non exsistent. The Numbness in my leg/foot from Sciatica is gone. I am gaining feeling back in my right arm from damaged C5/6/7. so that is good.

Definitely. There is some interesting cervical stuff in the Ming Method book. …shows how to decompress the discs .. to make some ‘room' and to get them rehydrating. It may or may not be safe to do for someone with damage to do (i don't know) so be careful if you check it out. Have you seen it?



BJJ is much more measurable and quantifiable..although many would say this is external...I don't care...I am able to move better, with more efficiency and I am beating more guys and holding my own more than I was a couple of months ago.

I was wondering about the transition to the internal. Is it binary/boolean or transitional shades of grey. Do you learn to trust the one above the other and slowly moving all the eggs over to the other basket? If so; then what you say is normal. I can't imagine the learning process to the IS can be such a quick transition. My opinion only..


What is the secret?

I think just doing something. Doesn't matter to me if it is Mike Sigman's, Arks, or even a really good Yoga practice.

You can't afford to just sit back, think about it, and do nothing for fear of doing the wrong thing. I wasted alot of time over the past 2 years doing this. Jump in and start breathing and stretching and moving your body in some way. There is enough out there on You tube and in Yoga to start doing something.

Nice. I like that. I am of the same mind. But I know that left alone; it is impossible I'm doing it right, and definitely picking up habits. Or even injuring myself. Conversely there seems to be some self-corrective self-guiding aspects to the feel of it that…kind of make you ‘come back to first principles'. I wonder about the dangers of this work…stagnant ki and all that.
dunno.


Anyway...it is fun, and I like how I am feeling in my body. I like the fact that I really feel I am doing a practice that will allow me to train as I progress from middle age to old age and maybe I won't be hobbling around .. with a cane and a blown out back.
I hear you. This is also is my hope.
The health aspects of this are amazing and encouraging. Self-aligning and energizing work. My opinion; we should all know about these types of self-maintaining health aspects of it. I have a theory that says life comes with a certain amount of pain. We are going to feel the pain regardless. Either it is due to falling apart as we age, or the pain will be felt while building up the body so as not to fall apart. I feel this stuff shows a way to organize and build the body. Learning the way we are meant to move and ‘make' and ‘bear' power. It would help to make people sensitive to their postural errors, soft-tissue problems, inflexibility issues …and gives a method and the tools to fix ‘em. On the negative side: The problem is it this all seems to fn hurt and is a shit pile of work. On the positive side it is free, shows you how to self-fix as you age, enabling you to do it (largely) without drugs and surgery, as is becoming the ‘normal way to get old' (in the west?). Was daydreaming of opening a health clinic for this stuff; then I remembered I don't know anything ... and then about the general laziness of people (i.e. people won't stick with it). They say in physiotherapy circles that even the patients with the most to gain out of the ‘corrective' exercises don't do ‘em. 'cause it's hard.
just some thoughts. Thanks again for yours, Kevin.
I gots to do me some work now. …
Josh

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 09:31 AM
...
Josh, it seems like you really would get a lot of your questions answered by attending one of any of those guys' workshops.
Rob

That, Sir... is crazy talk.

thisisnotreal
07-31-2009, 10:36 AM
Hi Rob,
Sorry, i always go for the cheap laugh...

My back muscles are changing and I'm not sure I like it yet. I have decided to embrace transition.

Seriously though; What do you think the choice is between, in regards to the transition of your back?
I'm reminded of RJ talking about the issue of Hiden with the archers. Impressing the difference in the quality of the development of musculature. (I can't recall more) I never did see that pic.. but remember looking for it.

.. I think you'll really like active isolated stretching as well. I find it more efficient for resolving body issues than any yoga.
That sounds like a great tip. i don't know anything about this, I think.
I thought this was part of that

Does it have anything to do with PNF used to condition to build strength over flexibility? Did you ever hear of Dara Torres? Watch the 3rd video down >here< (http://recoveryourstride.blogspot.com/2008/08/resistance-stretching-this-is-what-dara.html)

Can you recommend a good book for AIS? (or vid)
Are you talking like, The Genius of Stretch by Bob Cooley (I didn't like that book much, fwiw) (/Meridian stretching) but got a few things out of it. I'm not even sure that is what you are talking about.
Thanks for the ideas, Rob.
Best,
Josh

NAF
07-31-2009, 11:12 AM
Josh-

I have been a patient of Ming Chew's for a few years... Of course I have his books.. Ming saved me from getting torn labrum surgery as well as healed my DeQuervain's tendonitis. Although he says if I keep doing Aikido, I'm going to keep seeing him, he has kept me able to train.. A few months ago, I could not lift my left shoulder at all for a few days and was very worried. Ming and his method fixed me in 1 session... If you ever make it to NYC, he is worth meeting.. Ming trained in BJJ with the Gracies although he has stopped in the last few years.. His stretches and/or work out routines have also helped me a great deal.

Kevin Leavitt
07-31-2009, 01:00 PM
Josh wrote;

Can you say anything about connecting with the breath? Certainly has to do with keeping a baseline of intraabdominal pressure, doesn't it? Kind of like the valsalva maneuver, but with the epiglottis open? (I may be talking BS) .. but that is what I found.

Heck man I don't know, I just try and do what they tell me too! LOL.

Also, I have learned when doing waza or BJJ you need to breath to relax and be connected...so I just do it.

The big deep breathing thing (Pranayama) I think is about developing and strengthening the secondary muscles and structure in the body. Mike Sigman talks alot about breathing and developing the suit of muscle and fascia network.

All I know is that they tell me to do it....I am doing it and I feel better and more connected and stronger when I do it.

I quess when all these guys over the years say it is important and I want to emulate them...well then...

That is about all I can really say about it. I am not very insightful sorry.

Thomas Campbell
07-31-2009, 03:07 PM
In two years I went from having one of the most non-athletic, non-martial, unconnected, imbalanced, unstable, uncontrolled body you can imagine to reading comments like this:

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
I have a lot more years in previous training than Tom H (who had zero) - but I would NOT want to go punch for punch with him.

Tom

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/3160057767_d4abb8be5d.jpg

Tom H.
07-31-2009, 04:58 PM
<Hey Skinny Cartoon>
Pretty much, except imagine it's set in p-town :)

Tom H.
07-31-2009, 07:54 PM
Is there anything specific you can share or advice about what it is being trained?

Josh, I would be happy to show you in person just about everything I'm working on to change the way I hold my body and move at all times, e.g. so that I am constantly balanced in myself between pairs of opposing intent.

Listen to Rob, go to a workshop, and pick up some material to work solo (any one of Mike, Ark, or Dan will give you good specifics to get started). See them again after you've trained for a while. Look for a person or small group to work the partner aspect.

Tom

Upyu
08-02-2009, 07:25 AM
Josh,

Unfortunately this is just one of those things that no amount of information digging will help you until you get some hands on experience. Don't blow too many brain cells conceptualizing until you actually physically build your body up a bit ;)

Some people have noted the decrease in the amount of posting of "how-to's" etc by myself and others.
It's not that it's stopped but that they've moved on to other areas/boards where the signal to noise ratio isn't so damn high. :D

Demetrio Cereijo
08-02-2009, 12:23 PM
Skinny cartoon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAAnrqDygns

6:15 - 7:30

Mind over muscle FTW

:D

Buck
08-02-2009, 12:35 PM
Josh,



Some people have noted the decrease in the amount of posting of "how-to's" etc by myself and others.
It's not that it's stopped but that they've moved on to other areas/boards where the signal to noise ratio isn't so damn high. :D

Yea, I can see that Dude. The noise ratio is so damn high in some threads like the one asking, "is something missing in Aikido." Dude, its like your trying to discuss something cool, and someone clueless to what you said comes out of no where completely missing the point and has to comment. Trying to make you look bad or something. Dude like, it is alot of noise, I know what you mean. It's killing me, :dead: Dude in these low noise areas you moved on to. :)

Josh Reyer
08-02-2009, 08:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAAnrqDygns

6:15 - 7:30

Mind over muscle FTW

:D
Man, beaches must have been tough places in the fifties...

Upyu
08-03-2009, 11:27 AM
and someone clueless to what you said comes out of no where completely missing the point and has to comment.

I know I know. I have absolutely no clue what I'm talking about.
Zero. Zilch.

So uh, beyond the personal attacks... you want to fill us in on why Bruce Lee had "something?"

<Kicks back, opens a six pack of Sapporo>

thisisnotreal
08-04-2009, 09:34 PM
Josh, I would be happy to show you in person just about everything I'm working on to change the way I hold my body and move at all times, e.g. so that I am constantly balanced in myself between pairs of opposing intent.
...
Tom


Unfortunately this is just one of those things that no amount of information digging will help you until you get some hands on experience. Don't blow too many brain cells conceptualizing until you actually physically build your body up a bit


Tom, Rob,
Of course, I already believe you and know you are both right. Tom thank you for the offer; it is very kind. I will take it to PM.
I guess for some reason I feel self-possessed to try to take my understanding to its limits...on my own. To take it as far as I can, so that I know I did my level best..and then when my socks are blown it will mean all that more to me. I believe, fwiw, that there are loads of pointers here (and there) so that one could piece... something.. together. What kind of a frankenstein partial/fractured thing it is..i dare not say. I want to see how close i can get. Think i got something..willing to renounce that at some future time. I know time is limited; so I won't waste too much more of it.

All that being said,
One thing I am wondering about is that all those 'in the know' are saying the same things. This work is thee way to train; this is thee way to change the body for good. This way will enable/cause changes in the fascial films; This will enable control of the various systems of the body (that are usually under involuntary control). This stuff is IT, for lack of a better word. But i also know that truth is messier or more complex. I wonder, for instance if there is any negative or down side to the work? We've, for instance, all seen Schwarzenegger's deflated muscle-body now that he is older... I wonder what happens if you stop the kind of work that gives you IT. I also wonder personally; and thru comments like Rob's above about the body changes..and not being sure I/we/he likes them. I do personally understand that kind of comment; and am wondering if and what any tradeoffs are involved in the decision to 'take this up'. For instance, by taking conscious control of things that are usually automatic/autonomic ...what kind, if any, dangers are being implicitly assumed? I am trying to count the cost before embarking on the path that so many laud. Is it clear?

thisisnotreal
08-04-2009, 09:37 PM
Buck, Upyu;

Well; I guess the challenge has been laid. Now, as martial artists; i think you know how this has to go...
...but I beg you "Don't do this to yourself"

vid< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG2osy3PC6Y&feature=related)

p.s. Buck - "You've got a lot of guts" ;)
Don't sweat the small stuff. Life is short.
Best, Josh

Kevin Leavitt
08-04-2009, 09:57 PM
Josh wrote:

But i also know that truth is messier or more complex. I wonder, for instance if there is any negative or down side to the work? We've, for instance, all seen Schwarzenegger's deflated muscle-body now that he is older... I wonder what happens if you stop the kind of work that gives you

Schwarzenegger changed his body into something that was not natural at all. He used steriods and some very extreme training measures to take his body beyond the limits of what was intended in nature. In away I would categorize that as abuse to be honest.

I don't pay alot of attention to him, but he does seem to still be in pretty damn good shape though for his age and I am sure it is due to the fact that he still works out, eats right...and you bet that he is still disciplined enough to do the right things to keep himself fit at his age.

What he shows is that the body is pretty resilient and forgiving really.

Personally i feel there is a difference in these training methods. You are not abusing the body, but working with it gently and encouraging it to become strong and move in ways that are within the context of natural parameters. You are simply fine tuning it to a level that is way above the average person.

Mike Sigman did caution about trying to train too hard, straining too much, or holding your breath and things like that as it will cause you problems...things like High Blood Presssure, Strokes, aneurisms. So yes, I think you can overtrain with this as well, but it will not help.

So, if you stop training, I don't see how you would realize any bad effects from training, except that your body would probably return to a state of atrophy equal to the level of what you are not doing.

Actually I feel pretty good when I do train, so not sure why you would want to stop once it starts to become a habit. The hard part is starting and developing the habits. Also hard is you need to get with someone regularly to work with that can provide you feedback and guidance I think.

rob_liberti
08-05-2009, 09:16 AM
Any one know about methods of working on counter-nutation?

C. David Henderson
08-05-2009, 10:56 AM
Rob,

Check out a yoga swing. You can find them on-line, and they're not hard to construct. FWIW

regards,

cdh

thisisnotreal
08-08-2009, 10:54 AM
Lovely< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YamDoDK71Ds)but not IT

Not Lovely< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB8OoQAe0UI) but IT

p.s. Rob; re:counternutation;
That is tipping the sacrum backwards. Is that important to open up pelvis to better funnel/connect/route upper-body force to lower half? If not; why did you mention it? How u do it?

Thomas Campbell
08-08-2009, 11:12 AM
Lovely< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YamDoDK71Ds)but not IT

Not Lovely< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB8OoQAe0UI) but IT



Josh,

Can you tell us why you say one clip above has "it" and the other does not?

I frankly am very cautious about judging solely by watching someone.

Although, I admit that simply watching can sometimes affect my qi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygctbqBijFk

thisisnotreal
08-08-2009, 11:47 AM
LMAO..

Hi Thomas,
dang. I should have specified IT in post#29 was evidence of the_changed_body, not nececessarily IT=aiki. I don't know that Not_lovely shows aiki.. but I think, fwiw that that body may be capable of it..
Come to think of it here's a question for ya (Q): Can you show/demonstrate aiki in a body by _yourself_ in an outwardly visible way? Don't you need a partner (or staff/sword/etc) to go flying(/vibrate/shake/etc) to evidence it? Hard to bring the inner to the outer in an outwardly visible way only by yourself, isn't it? (hmm...maybe not; kata; fa jin demo; yoga poses... i don't know for sure)
anyhoo..
What i think the Not_lovely clip shows is evidence of the changed body. What is see: evidence of a connected body, dantien-area initiation and the thickened middle spoken of. I think it shows evidence of what I think is Liu He (six harmonies) movement. You can see the windings..as he rides the patterns/torques on the body from one extent the other.

Let me ask you the question back, Thomas: do you think it is as I said: 1 has it, 1 doesn't? Although rightly cautious; could you say anything to compare them? The Lovely clip I think shows amazing body control and ...development... but don't necessarily see any of the changed body things that a MA would seek in there. Well i know we'd seek it ...but you know wtf i mean. I guess mostly I'd say she doesn't initiate movements by hara... they are still external. agree?
dunno...i am interested in what others have to say..

p.s. i can't see the clip you attached ("no rights where i am viewing").

Thomas Campbell
08-08-2009, 03:31 PM
LMAO..

p.s. i can't see the clip you attached ("no rights where i am viewing").

That is indeed your loss . . . Shakira's hips don't lie, and in fact I believe she is capable of lin kong jin . . . but that's the subject for another thread, in fact probably another forum entirely. :p

I think you are correct in that "it" is most clearly demonstrated with a partner or weapon. That would be where someone watching would be able to pick up on aspects of how the "IT" exponent is moving/working, aspects which would indicate "IT". We've had a number of video clips parsed over the last couple of years, on this forum and elsewhere, as to whether Ueshiba Morihei or other video subject was demonstrating "IT."

As far as watching someone simply moving their body . . . I personally cannot discern whether that person has "IT" or not. Let me get my hands on them . . . or work a weapon set with them . . . and things become much clearer (for me).

But I don't have "IT" myself and I think that seriously limits how much I can credibly discern in others. People who do have "IT" also tend to have a highly-developed "listening" sense (in Chinese, ting jin) as well . . . seems to be part of the skill set.

Just some thoughts.

thisisnotreal
11-11-2009, 09:49 PM
Can you tell us why you say one clip above has "it" and the other does not?

I frankly am very cautious about judging solely by watching someone.

Hi Thomas,
You are smart not to judge either way. Me? meh. :]
I meant to get back to you on this a while back.
I can't say why he *does* .. something about his shimmy makes me feel...all wiggly inside. And no, it's not my spidey sense tingling. It's what I've come to identify as the *right kind* of wiggly. (http://www.essenceofevolution.com/10internal%20mas/5element/xingyi%20flash/a09sarahou.html) <--I think that is a great site by the way. Lots of cool animations.

About her? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YamDoDK71Ds)..
...well..check out the results of my craptastic forensic analysis.
696.

Josh

thisisnotreal
11-11-2009, 10:02 PM
Noel,
Sorry I am responding to your post so late after the fact.
If you do see this; You are lucky. I would like to meet Ming some day.

His stuff has helped me immensely, as well. I should say that. Credit where credit is due.
You're lucky you have him in your corner to fix you up. Magic hands, eh?
Regarding training and your own body: Do you not find, though, that you are getting stronger; and more (albeit slightly, even?) impervious to injury?

His book, again, I cannot recommend it enough...for injuries, postural work, learning 'fascial stretching'. Helped me immensely.
Take care. Thanks for your post Noel.
Best to you,
Josh

Pauliina Lievonen
11-12-2009, 04:32 AM
Read the first post of the thread where you talked about old age and I had to think of this (AT teacher called Elizabeth Walker, 85 years old in this vid from '99. She's still teaching...):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_beEfRiCtEE&NR=1

Watch from 36'' for example...

Nothing to do with IT really, just a coincidence that i had seen this vid and then read the question in the first post.

kvaak
Pauliina

Erick Mead
11-12-2009, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=Josh Phillipson;237102] Not Lovely< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB8OoQAe0UI) but IT[/quote

Compare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iX0xEL6Wgg

0:08-0:16, particularly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTBN0b4qcyY&feature=related

Beginning to about 2:14 -- almost better because the poor film quality forces you to focus on the schematic aspects of the motion-- the stability of center vs. projecting motion to the periphery -- in particular, see how the motion of the hakama fits the motion of the jo ...

@ Rob for nutation-counter nutation -- you could try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ZcIAAFU7I&feature=related
:D

thisisnotreal
11-12-2009, 09:34 AM
Read the first post of the thread where you talked about old age and I had to think of this (AT teacher called Elizabeth Walker, 85 years old in this vid from '99. She's still teaching...):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_beEfRiCtEE&NR=1

Watch from 36'' for example...

Nothing to do with IT really, just a coincidence that i had seen this vid and then read the question in the first post.

kvaak
Pauliina
Hi Pauliina,
Thanks for the link. It is very interesting. 85 years old, you say? She certainly is spry and light footed. It's funny; nobody ever really teaches you how to use your body...but there certainly are right and wrong ways to do things. Walking around in daily life; you certainly can see a lot of people's bad (injurious) body movement habits...that you know will cause them pain and bodily deterioration. Can you imagine how much suffering could be averted just only due to simple bad habits being reformed? That is something I find keeps recurring to me.
On a related topic: I seem to recall reading you teach AT (Alexander Technique)... could you say what the underlying reason(s) is that people lift up their chest (like Elizabeth cautions) before they move (/take a step)? I would guess that it is due to a 'disconnection' from the lower body to the upper body...and a weak core. But that is only a guess, and my unlearned opinion.
Take care,
Josh

Pauliina Lievonen
11-12-2009, 01:03 PM
Hi Josh,

It's even more interesting when you think that that video is ten years old and she still teaching at 95, looking pretty much the same... :) That's my personal ambition - to keep working until I die.

The reason people do all kinds of harmful things is usually that at some point in the past, in some way or another, it "worked" for them, it worked well enough. People generally try to the best they can with what they have and what they know... A lot of habits are learned a s a child, imitating the adults around you. You can see little girls standing in a "feminine" posture imitating grown up women who wear high heels for example years before they will wear the heels themselves. Also, " good posture" generally seems to translate into lifting the chest up, and most of us want to have "good posture", right? It's a very insidious idea I find.

In the end the "why?" doesn't matter that much I find. Often once people have learned a new way of standing and moving, they even find it difficult to recall the old one...

kvaak
Pauliina

Thomas Campbell
11-12-2009, 01:40 PM
It's funny; nobody ever really teaches you how to use your body...but there certainly are right and wrong ways to do things. Walking around in daily life; you certainly can see a lot of people's bad (injurious) body movement habits...that you know will cause them pain and bodily deterioration. Can you imagine how much suffering could be averted just only due to simple bad habits being reformed?

Good observation, and so very true . . . which is a powerful reason for cultivating internal connection, good posture and healthy breathing.

thisisnotreal
11-13-2009, 08:27 PM
...Would you be able (/willing) to give any concrete examples of changes you noticed _in_ the body?
For instance: ...

really great thread< (http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2701&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

thisisnotreal
11-13-2009, 11:55 PM
any thoughts?

698

:freaky:

thisisnotreal
11-14-2009, 12:29 AM
that's what I was feeling. (i think)
"what changes have you guys noticed since doing your best to train IP/aiki?"

btw; i'm not putting those lines over on that figure there all authoratatively or anything. really. total guesses --just what i was thinking and feeling (again:i think), and i hoped interesting to people. i'm hoping to hear wassup.

thisisnotreal
11-14-2009, 12:35 AM
It's even more interesting when you think that that video is ten years old and she still teaching at 95, looking pretty much the same... :)
What is her secret?

That's my personal ambition - to keep working until I die.
so that's the plan then, eh?

-joking-


In the end the "why?" doesn't matter that much I find. Often once people have learned a new way of standing and moving, they even find it difficult to recall the old one...
May I ask, what is the best way to forget? What helps to forget?

kvaak
Pauliina
Yes, Quack to you too Pauliina.
Quack indeed.
: ]
Josh

Pauliina Lievonen
11-14-2009, 03:47 AM
May I ask, what is the best way to forget? What helps to forget?The point wasn't forgetting - the point was you first learn a new way of moving, and after you have done that, it can be hard to remember what you used to do. You can't just decide to forget something that you are still doing all the time.

Btw I seriously plan to keep working until I die. I'll have to - hardly any pension...

kvaak (is what Finnish aikiduckies say:D )
Pauliina

Stephen Kotev
11-17-2009, 08:12 AM
Josh-

I have been a patient of Ming Chew's for a few years... Of course I have his books.. Ming saved me from getting torn labrum surgery as well as healed my DeQuervain's tendonitis. Although he says if I keep doing Aikido, I'm going to keep seeing him, he has kept me able to train.. A few months ago, I could not lift my left shoulder at all for a few days and was very worried. Ming and his method fixed me in 1 session... If you ever make it to NYC, he is worth meeting.. Ming trained in BJJ with the Gracies although he has stopped in the last few years.. His stretches and/or work out routines have also helped me a great deal.

Noel,

Could you pass on Ming's contact information?

Thanks,
Stephen

thisisnotreal
11-17-2009, 08:20 AM
Noel,

Could you pass on Ming's contact information?

Thanks,
Stephen

Hi Stephen, not Noel; but you can find his public contact info @ (http://www.mingmethod.net/). Good Luck. Josh

thisisnotreal
11-17-2009, 11:22 AM
Another wonderful thread over at rsf: Postural analysis and natural movement (http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7065). I hope it's not 'bad form' for me to point over there..<gulp>but it was a pretty cool discussion.... and definitely relevant to what i was clumsily trying to point at.

Part of the reason I am hyped on Ming is that his stuff can (teach/)give you the ability to do your own body work/rolfing/etc and re-balance yourself. Arguably a good MA would never have gotten into a mess...or could figure it out. Whatever. i couldn't. While certainly not the ultimate (or anywhere near) IT, i think it certainly represents a valid first step.... in getting out of your own way...and a step towards preparing the body..
Also; and I am reluctant to mention this connection again; but Ming touts his stuff as addressing the fascia (specifically the muscluo-fascial =myofascia) in the body. His program is about hydrating, decreasing inflammation and literally stretching and un-binding kinks from the 'fascia'. (i'm paraphrasing; but he does discuss it in terms of fascia of the body). A different take on stretching and body conditioning/changing. for what it's worth.

elsewhere..and tangentially related...I saw this; in the context of training/changing your body: "Pain is the feeling of weakness leaving your body". :cool: i like that. makes it easier to hold on in the moment of pain.

reminds me of this douka

To see the true things
Harmonize with the voice which shouts, "Yah"
Never be drawn into the rhythm of the enemy

With "Eiii" cut him down!
That enemy that lurks within
Instruct him with "Yah"
Guide him with "Toh"


Is it bad that i'm yelling Yah and Toh while stretching ; ]
(probably..)

Stephen Kotev
11-20-2009, 07:36 AM
Hi Stephen, not Noel; but you can find his public contact info @ (http://www.mingmethod.net/). Good Luck. Josh

Thanks Josh.

Mike Sigman
11-21-2009, 02:08 PM
Another wonderful thread over at rsf: Postural analysis and natural movement (http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7065). While posture, etc., are intertwined with what the Chinese called "Natural Movement", that conversation on RSF misses the point. Natural movement has got more to do with Six Harmonies movement (which is in turn tied to basic tenets in the Chinese cosmology, ancient Indian body mechanics, etc.) than it has to do with what they're speculating about.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

thisisnotreal
11-21-2009, 10:26 PM
Hey Mike,
Frankly I don't know about that stuff. Is Lu He Ba (sp?) like the 'kernel' of what healthy-'natural'-powerful-cosmologically-aligned body movement is? If you adhere: you are? 'Threading the pearl'?
Dunno. If you want to talk about that I, for one, am definitely interested, cause, like I said, I don't know. Does aikido have an equivalent? Have you found that Aikido teaches about the body in that way? Is it supposed to? In my limited experience it did and it didnt.
I always meant to ask; but it's by definition personal. I would love to ask this question to Ark, Dan and yourself, (and Toby, and Ellis, and anyone who would answer!);maybe even a question for Voices of Experience; as to how has your body changed for the better; and what specifically do you like and or recommend to do? This is in reference to the 'changing/tempering of the body'. I really like your explanation of the 'universal movement':cool: . but i only saw that brief clip and didn't really see any interviews or anything. I would love to hear more about it. It is about the spirals right?
Thanks,
Josh

thisisnotreal
11-21-2009, 10:45 PM
Liu He (six harmonies)

Mike Sigman
11-22-2009, 09:35 AM
Frankly I don't know about that stuff. Is Lu He Ba (sp?) like the 'kernel' of what healthy-'natural'-powerful-cosmologically-aligned body movement is? If you adhere: you are? 'Threading the pearl'? Josh, you're just mixing buzzwords. Liu He Ba Fa (Six Harmonies, Eight Methods) is the name of a fighting style; sometimes called "Water Fist".

Regardless of that guy who was on here a few months back insisting that "Liu He" was invented by someone in his Dai Family Xinyi Liu He, "Liu He" has been a denoting term on many CMA's going back into antiquity. The Liu He refers to the fact that the body moves "naturally" with the natural windings of the limb, torso, etc., in relation to the breath-developed strengths (where "kokyu" gets its name).

Threading the Nine-bends Pearl is about bringing I.S. to where you want it in the body. With intent.
Dunno. If you want to talk about that I, for one, am definitely interested, cause, like I said, I don't know. Does aikido have an equivalent? Have you found that Aikido teaches about the body in that way? Is it supposed to? In my limited experience it did and it didnt. Watching the pattern of my speculations/observations about Aikido and I.S. over the years, the trend is that I have to amend to allow that Ueshiba, Tohei, and a few others new more than I originally estimated, but less that "full banana" level of some of the so-called "internal martial arts". Aikido, as done by Ueshiba, appears to be an art that uses "neijin" (internal strength) and "neigongs" (internal exercises via misogi, breathing techniques, etc.), but it is not one of the "neijia" (internal family of martial arts) because it doesn't have the full-blown Six Harmonies movement.... but there are caveats too complicated to go into on this forum. So yeah, there are body-changing aspects to Aikido, no doubt, but it's too complicated to explain in writing. I always meant to ask; but it's by definition personal. I would love to ask this question to Ark, Dan and yourself, (and Toby, and Ellis, and anyone who would answer!);maybe even a question for Voices of Experience; as to how has your body changed for the better; and what specifically do you like and or recommend to do? This is in reference to the 'changing/tempering of the body'. I really like your explanation of the 'universal movement':cool: . but i only saw that brief clip and didn't really see any interviews or anything. I would love to hear more about it. It is about the spirals right?
You have to learn to move differently. Most of the people now talking knowledgeably about "I.S." are never really going to move differently except in limited areas of application. So that's a "change".

You also have to train the body through breathing and stretching, etc., exercises. That will change the body the most. It will (if done correctly) repair insidious health, bone, joint, organ problems over time and strength will increase. There are practical reasons this happens (it's not magic), but it would take a treatise (and vids, etc.) to explain it on this type of forum.

Remember the anecdote I posted one time about one of my teachers breaking a chopstick by slamming his body/neck forward into the pointed end of the chopstick (the butt-end of the chopstick was against a brick wall)? The chopstick splintered into fibers and did not penetrate the skin on his throat. Stand a bamboo chopstick up on its end and hit straight down on the pointy end with a hammer, hard enough to splinter the chopstick, and you'll see what happened to the chopstick. He had "changed" his body all over like this by years of doing a certain type of neigong. It's change you can believe in. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman