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Misogi-no-Gyo
07-25-2009, 09:19 PM
Shear. Shear is hard to "see." When a material completely fails in compression or in tension it almost always fails first in a local shear from some isolated discontinuity or local weakness. That then cascades into linear stress failure because the material is at its elastic limit, and th shear failure is the proverbial straw. In buckling the shear is all that is necessary to cause structural failure, becasue there is no "reserve" structure. See here. http://www.nbcolympics.com/weightlifting/news/newsid=206808.html That man's elbow failed in a buckling shear.

Well, the fact is that all the "forms" of aiki taiso follow the shapes of and implement 3D shear dynamics. Their spiral form follows the same shapes as wingtip vortices of aerodynmaic lift -- also a phenomenon manipulating shear forces. The Aiki Taiso are adapted to express it, and structurally, endure it, and manipulate it and the waza are set piece episodes in which they can be shown linearly for the uninitiated. They can be shown in any other number of forms, if the form and structure are BOTH correct to express them. One has to be able to "see" or feel shear first, however, which is NOT easy -- in part because our bodies take that sense from us by formulating a reflexive reaction well before making it available to conscious response.

Now we are getting somewhere. The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.

I take it back...

j - u - s - t
o - n - e
m - o - r - e
p - o - s - t.....

ahhhhhhhhhhhh! :hypno: please make it stop!!!!!!

PS - wouldn't it be totally ironic if it actually turned out that eric not only knew what we were all talking about, but knew what he was talking about, as well? I mean... damn!!!

...I would just love that!

.

Mike Sigman
07-25-2009, 09:26 PM
Now we are getting somewhere. The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.Ah.... so this is "IT"? Techniques and their effects on people? I guess I'd forgotten... but now I remember, come to think of it .... you used to mention technique in this way, but I'd forgotten, over time.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-25-2009, 09:40 PM
I would disagree with some of Shaun's replies to you about what "IT" is, BTW. The assumption is that Shaun knows all these things well enough to be an expert and I simply have no idea what he can do and can't do. The idea that he is better than Chen Xiaowang is startling news indeed; perhaps I should go to Shaun and learn from him. :crazy: Ha, Mike,

Pretty good one there... I most certainly did not say, nor would I believe for a second that I am now, now might ever be even 1/10th the martial artist of the gentleman in the video. What I did say was
Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! still true...
I am most sure that is not the best he can do I am sure there are many demonstrations which would illustrate his many talents. I am sure, because I have seen them, and this I would consider a poor example of them, and not an example or it, or aiki.
lowly old me, even with my poor, mostly unproven skills can do that with about 1/10th the effortand I have, and continue to do so, and (ahem) not just on my own students, and most certainly with individuals who outweigh me by a hundred pounds.
Very, very low level (demonstration) from what I have seen sorry, but it really is a very poor demonstration of anything outisde of low level (and I can't believe I am going to say this...) angular momentum.
quite low compared to what I could do almost 10 years ago
Sorry, but these are the type of demonstrations I was doing back then. I probably have some on video, but more likely from about 2002, as I was more than likely to rip a video or still camera out of your hand and punch you in your face if you had pointed one at me while training (or not) until around then...

In any case, Mike, I have nothing to teach you. Though I would be more than happy to come and learn from you if the right opportunity ever presented itself.

.

Mike Sigman
07-25-2009, 09:58 PM
Pretty good one there... I most certainly did not say, nor would I believe for a second that I am now, now might ever be even 1/10th the martial artist of the gentleman in the video. See? I knew we could find something to agree upon! ;) What I did say was[LIST]
Definitely not Aiki! Not even close! still true... Well, I dunno. Then are you saying that when Ueshiba stood immoveable against Tenryu's push and said (Ueshiba said) that he used the 'secret of aiki' (or was it "aikido") that he wasn't doing as he said? I could make a pretty compelling and demonstrable argument that what CXW did and the same things that Ueshiba did could indeed be called "aiki" and that the matter of Uke falling or being held in place are just variations of the kind of results that you can do with jin/kokyu/ki skills.
lowly old me, even with my poor, mostly unproven skills can do that with about 1/10th the effortand I have, and continue to do so, and (ahem) not just on my own students, and most certainly with individuals who outweigh me by a hundred pounds. Could you stand against my 2-finger push, though, without leaning into it? :)
Very, very low level (demonstration) from what I have seen sorry, but it really is a very poor demonstration of anything outisde of low level (and I can't believe I am going to say this...) angular momentum. "Momentum"????

But anyway, this is actually a good kind of conversation because ideas and terms get traded back and forth. People formulate and articulate their ideas. Others read and some get triggered on analytical thoughts. And so on. People progress. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Buck
07-25-2009, 10:41 PM
I haven't read the entire thread. I may be saying what already has been said, but if so it is worth repeating. It has to do with doughnuts and doughnut holes, as pointed out earlier.

Isn't it about getting there, but rather it is about the journey, as the saying goes. What does a person really want out of aikido and the perspective that leads them to thinking something is missing. It is rather about then something that has yet to be seen or discovered? There is this old viral youtube vid thingy about awareness that applies here too.

When we don't see the bear walking throughplayers passing the ball between themselves is because we choose to focus on the action. When we choose to focus not on the action, rather than focusing on the non-action. We focus on the ball and the people passing the ball. Similarly, to the concept of negative space in art where another image exists in the negative space. We focus on the positive space of a picture, one that has an image in the negative space, seeing the positive space image only. Something that is over-looked, the image in negative space, that was always there, but had gone unnoticed at the first look.

When we see the bear "person in a bear outfit" walking through the people tossing around the ball we are amazed and bewildered. We say wow, how did I miss that, why didn't I see that before? And the same goes for the picture too. All of which exist at one point or another in the same space, but it was our perspective that focused on only singularly on the action, on the positive space.

When then wonder what is missing say in our practice from one school or the other. What wasn't being taught that was missed? What ultimate secret exists that will make me so fantastically incredible out there. The answer is maybe nothing like that at all. Maybe it is a matter of what we are looking at. I could stop here an try get that profound effect thingy going, but I would rather not. :) maybe it isn't the positive space, but the negative space of the self. The negative space of the self our perspective, our wants, our desires, our expectations., our attitudes, our thinking. Like the bear, those things go un-noticed. Like the doughnut hole, ignored. :)

If we are looking for secrets, or improvements maybe we should look at our attitudes, and reasons for why such things are important. Rather focusing on the importance of the journey over the goal. That way we see the bear, we see the second image in the negative space. Instead of the postive space of what we think we are missing.

I remember in a college class the prof. said he wasn't into spoon feeding teaching. He said, that is done in elementary school where it is needed. Where the young mind isn't fully developed. Young developing minds are in process and not fully functioning. But, that isn't true for our minds, which were past that. And he would be teaching us to learn for ourselves. Not to rely on him to give us the information he wants us or that he thinks we should have (the goal), but for us to think on our own (the journey). This was enlightening because it teaches us to preceive things in a different way, to be independent. Point being not to think we are missing something, but rather thinking instead that there is so much we don't know that we have yet to explore.

I personally feel thinking there is something missing in my Aikido would really lead me down the wrong path. Instead, I prefer to look at it like this, I have allot to learn, a lot to explore, it is endless. There is nothing definite, it is living as it is an art. And if I think I got it all, I hope am wrong. IMO :)

Erick Mead
07-25-2009, 11:34 PM
I am sure that both you and Eric might spend weeks deciding on models with which one could be 100% sure you were first talking about the same thing, ... .Actually I started with an (apparently unwarranted) assumption, that the language of mechanics was more widely understood than it is, and that those who claimed more profound knowledge than what my mechanical intuition and analytical observation of practice has led me to, might be more amenable to it.

At this point I have concluded that the overwhelming majority of learning styles of people that keep doing and deepening in martial art are not of the same type as me. So there is a disconnect. So my task is to overcome that -- to lead a discussion from prosaic analogy or comparison -- from the general to the specific, while avoiding the typical pitfalls of turf, ego and other reflexive resistance to a different way of describing something.

-- All of which is vastly more difficult than simply saying that modulating cycles of vibration is the heart of the matter -- There is no obvious way of generalizing that broad and correct observation for application without drawing the branches of mechanics and the biology together. Who said that was easy? What I have to say about what I know can't be said or written in any other way. And apparently neither can the topic of the biomechanics of aiki or "it" be written of with any greater ease -- because, ya know, if it really could be -- by now -- it probably would have been.

And it hasn't... yet.

Erick Mead
07-25-2009, 11:47 PM
PS - wouldn't it be totally ironic if it actually turned out that eric not only knew what we were all talking about, but knew what he was talking about, as well? I mean... damn!!!

...I would just love that! And so the thread apparently dies for lack of a second,--- but with less rancor -- there's an improvement ...

There is no mechanics. It does not exist. It has no use. There is nothing to learn that has not already been learned. Everything that can be invented has been invented.

The Doka are meaningless, the spirit of bees and snakes -- delusion. Aiki is not spiral the shape is meaningless... -- The center of vibration -- nonsense syllables ...

I am the wind in the meadow. I was never here. :)

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 12:35 AM
I haven't read the entire thread. I may be saying what already has been said, but if so it is worth repeating. It has to do with doughnuts and doughnut holes, as pointed out earlier.

Isn't it about getting there, but rather it is about the journey, as the saying goes. What does a person really want out of aikido and the perspective that leads them to thinking something is missing. It is rather about then something that has yet to be seen or discovered? There is this old viral youtube vid thingy about awareness that applies here too.

When we don't see the bear walking through players passing the ball between themselves is because we choose to focus on the action. When we choose to focus not on the action, rather than focusing on the non-action. We focus on the ball and the people passing the ball. Similarly, to the concept of negative space in art where another image exists in the negative space. We focus on the positive space of a picture, one that has an image in the negative space, seeing the positive space image only. Something that is over-looked, the image in negative space, that was always there, but had gone unnoticed at the first look.

When we see the bear "person in a bear outfit" walking through the people tossing around the ball we are amazed and bewildered. We say wow, how did I miss that, why didn't I see that before? And the same goes for the picture too. All of which exist at one point or another in the same space, but it was our perspective that focused on only singularly on the action, on the positive space.

When then wonder what is missing say in our practice from one school or the other. What wasn't being taught that was missed? What ultimate secret exists that will make me so fantastically incredible out there. The answer is maybe nothing like that at all. Maybe it is a matter of what we are looking at. I could stop here an try get that profound effect thingy going, but I would rather not. :) maybe it isn't the positive space, but the negative space of the self. The negative space of the self our perspective, our wants, our desires, our expectations., our attitudes, our thinking. Like the bear, those things go un-noticed. Like the doughnut hole, ignored. :)

If we are looking for secrets, or improvements maybe we should look at our attitudes, and reasons for why such things are important. Rather focusing on the importance of the journey over the goal. That way we see the bear, we see the second image in the negative space. Instead of the postive space of what we think we are missing.

huh? :hypno:

I remember in a college class the prof. said he wasn't into spoon feeding teaching. He said, that is done in elementary school where it is needed. Where the young mind isn't fully developed. Young developing minds are in process and not fully functioning. But, that isn't true for our minds, which were past that. And he would be teaching us to learn for ourselves. Not to rely on him to give us the information he wants us or that he thinks we should have (the goal), but for us to think on our own (the journey). This was enlightening because it teaches us to preceive things in a different way, to be independent. Point being not to think we are missing something, but rather thinking instead that there is so much we don't know that we have yet to explore.

My father was an administrator in the New York City school system for close to 30 years. I remember him telling me a story about a teacher just like the one you described. He called the teacher into his office and said to her, "There are two methods of teaching. The first is to teach people how to do things by telling them how to think. While this is best for children who don't have the intelligence with which to challenge you, it can also be used effectively for those who can only learn this way because they can not learn from the subtlety of the second method. The second way to is to teach by demonstrating a model for a proper way of learning that can be observed and assimilated by the student so the student can learn how to learn." He continued, "You do not teach using either method. You stand up there and challenge students to learn when you offer them no model from which to learn. Students can not observe you learning, or growing as a teacher, or even as a person. Each year you return and teach the same lesson you did the first year you began teaching. Nothing changes, not you, nor your lessons nor your methods. In fact you are not teaching at all, and that is the reason I am going to have to let you go."

The teacher was astounded, but was terminated just the same. They just couldn't see how far off they actually were from where they thought they were. Of course, all of the students already knew. We have all had teacher's like the one you describe and the one my father fired. While it may have worked for you, and I am glad you got something out of it, more than likely the best thing that ever could have happened to them is if they had been challenged to come up with a method of teaching that actually did what it was supposed to do - TEACH.

...so desune!

.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 12:44 AM
And so the thread apparently dies for lack of a second,--- but with less rancor -- there's an improvement ...Eric,

I think, as Mike said, that the thread is alive and well. There is a high level of communication going on that also runs parallel to the disconnect of which you speak. Truth be told, the gap may never be bridged. Alas, it is also true that without the current level of communication the gap will most definitely not be bridged, and that would be tragic and sad.

There is no mechanics. It does not exist. It has no use. There is nothing to learn that has not already been learned. Everything that can be invented has been invented.Surely you jest...

The Doka are meaningless, the spirit of bees and snakes -- delusion. Aiki is not spiral the shape is meaningless... -- The center of vibration -- nonsense syllables ... I feel ya, man, I really do. That is why I said would it not be ironic if... because at least you are actively questioning, and that is light years ahead of most Aikidoka. My hat is off to you and your efforts, which are both pure of heart and true in intention

I am the wind in the meadow. I was never here. :)I am right there with you, and you and I and the wind and the meadow are one in Aiki. We have always been here.

.

rob_liberti
07-26-2009, 12:46 AM
The last few years have been interesting to watch. If people think back to, what, 2005 I think, there was an interesting gauntlet involving conformity of speaking, "outsiders", "what rank do you have?", "my teacher G. Sensei already does all that and he taught me to do it, too", "I don't like you personally", "we already do that and if you want lessons, you have to come to my dojo," and so on. Watching the process has been intriguing.

We have come a long way. In 2005, I didn't read anything about:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
Did you develop "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
How long did it take you to develop such things?
And not too much about: Are the hips driving your power or not?

Instead I recall posts about:
- a jo trick that no one else was doing. It just didn't impress upon me the idea that aiki skills to that level were attainable.

- moving with kokyu or jin forces. That did nothing to impress me because there are plenty of aikido people who have kokyu power to a ridiculous degree relative to the average guy. (Which is probably why people like David continue to hold their beliefs.) I just assumed you were another CMA guy who probably couldn't move all that well but had all sorts of power standing in one spot - and were judging people who were moving around unfairly.

- And, to be honest, my trust level of the only available source posting about *IT* was a bit shaken after reading a bizarre and controversial opinion paper which seemed to get misinterpreted; and then passed off as fact.
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=97483&postcount=152
Yikes...

I wrote about our points of divergence before:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=210636&postcount=258

Somehow we managed.. -Rob

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 01:03 AM
See? I knew we could find something to agree upon! ;):straightf

Well, I dunno. Then are you saying that when Ueshiba stood immovable against Tenryu's push and said (Ueshiba said) that he used the 'secret of aiki' (or was it "aikido") that he wasn't doing as he said?No I am sure O-Sensei was doing what he said. I am just not so convinced that he would agree that what he was doing had much to do with what you are describing. I am sure there would be overlaps on some levels, but I think the differences that are not being discussed here are more important than the similarities that everyone is trying to come to some agreement about. I am all for coming to some agreement that these things are important body skills which are paramount to develop in all martial arts. However, they are not the be all end all of O-Sensei's Aikido that many (of late) seem to try and hold them up to be.

I could make a pretty compelling and demonstrable argument that what CXW did and the same things that Ueshiba did could indeed be called "aiki" and that the matter of Uke falling or being held in place are just variations of the kind of results that you can do with jin/kokyu/ki skills.I might agree with you there, but as you yourself have said, "There are many ways to skin a cat." In the end the cat is held in place before skinning him. Its just that some hurt more than others, and some don't hurt at all...

Could you stand against my 2-finger push, though, without leaning into it? :)I would certainly love to give it my best shot. I will say that I walked into one of my teacher's fists one time and it hurt me more than hitting my head in a car accident where I broke two telephone poles in half and broke my car into four pieces - and it just so happens that his fist wasn't moving. I have also had the pleasure to receive another teacher's 1 inch punch. Not the BS ones you see on youtube where people twist their hips and move their weight into their hand as their hip moves forward. I mean the kind where there is no visible explosion of movement in his body at all, but about a split second after contact, just as his fist is receding a powerful burst of energy hit me so hard that my body launched over five feet straight up and almost 10 feet to the rear. So, if you can do something like either of those two things, then, no... I couldn't resist it. I must add, though that I wasn't trying to resist either of those two things, as the first one caught me off guard, and the second one I asked for so I could see how it felt. I did let Vladimir from Systema hit me pretty square about 10 times. Didn't really hurt me at all, and I didn't move off my spot. But I wasn't trying to resist that either, nor direct it back into him, as the instruction was to just let it in and absorb it, systema-style, which while counter productive to my level of understanding was the first and last time I ever tried to do that.

"Momentum"???? Yeah, that is why I said it seemed so low level. I mean it seemed as though he was leaning into the uke and would have fallen forward had the uke pulled him back.

But anyway, this is actually a good kind of conversation because ideas and terms get traded back and forth. People formulate and articulate their ideas. Others read and some get triggered on analytical thoughts. And so on. People progress. ;) I couldn't agree with you more. Okay, I could... but not today.

...best in training to all.

.

rob_liberti
07-26-2009, 01:12 AM
O-Sensei did forward his art to specific teachers, and believe it or not, there actually is a list.

Shaun,

Do the people on that list:
- deliver force without committing weight?
- move freely without their balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
- have "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
- move so that their hips are not driving their power?
- successfully teach that to others in 5 years or so?

Or can you provide a list of valuable skills offered by the people on that *official* "list" and how long to acquire them?

Rob

mathewjgano
07-26-2009, 01:36 AM
A lot, as long as there is objective common reference points that everyone can understand. Regardless how much you agree with the definition, it is a starting point that most people are able to understand.

Have you found any explanations which you felt fit the bill? If you have, who (or which location/thread) seems to have had the most useful descriptions for you?

I am not enticed by the explanation " It is a secret, I can show you" ( reminds of of sideshows at he county fair), I am enticed by an explanation that is openly discussed in seeking the truth.

David

Likewise. I particularly liked the Man-Eating-Rabbit operation. Inside the tent was a man eating a rabbit.
Take care,
Matt

Buck
07-26-2009, 02:07 AM
huh? :hypno:

.

What we think we are missing isn't always where we focus first upon that matters, but rather in the place where we usually don't place our focus.

Look here depending on where you place your focus it is either one thing or another. If you focus on the negative space it is one image, if you focus on the positive space it is another image.
http://www.switched.com/2008/09/17/top-25-optical-illusions-on-the-web-4

Same with Aikido, are you missing something or are you not. It is where you place your focus. If your intent is to a means, a goal, you will only see one image, the positive one more often then not. But if you are into the journey, placing your focus there then you soon see both images. That is how secrets in Aikido can be discovered.

If you are focused on a goal for too long you will start to ask yourself if you are missing something if you don't reach that goal quickly or in a certain amount of time. If you are not bothered by such a thing then it doesn't enter your mind such a question that something is missing in your Aikido.

Aikido also is like any craft or art, mastery over time working at it. And having the right perspective allowing you to see that the road to mastery. Just like any art or craft worth investing in.

My young cousin learned to play electric guitar good enough to preform publicly in clubs for a cover band in under two years. He feels he knows it all. His is father learned to play classical guitar at 6 years old. He is 55 now, and he is still learning to play, despite his ability at winning top awards for his technical guitar playing. His ability to play complex pieces of music. His father is always improving and enjoying it. Discovering things about the guitar, working to improve further upon his skill and knowledge. Something lost on his son who wants quick guitar tricks to sound like his guitar heros and idols. Unlike his father who professional reads and understands music, his son doesn't. His son only reads tabs and not notes, and guesses alot at what is being played.

Point being the Father is a master craftsmen of his instrument, his son is merely a cover guitarist. The son is always asking or seeking out what he thinks he is missing. Ironic huh? Here again it is about what we focus on and what we don't.

BTW, I am a musician. I play the trumpet. I started in high school and continued in college. Yes an Aikidoka who is a band geek. Who believes both arts relate, over-lap, and have similarities they share, that teach us the same lessons. All it is, is case of perspective that eludes some from what they feel is missing in their Aikido. Be it teaching as they see it, or what have you. Hopefully, this will help them find it.

Now-a-days as my grandfather says, we are losing quickly the venerable art of craftsmenship.

Buck
07-26-2009, 02:19 AM
Have you found any explanations which you felt fit the bill? If you have, who (or which location/thread) seems to have had the most useful descriptions for you?

Likewise. I particularly liked the Man-Eating-Rabbit operation. Inside the tent was a man eating a rabbit.
Take care,
Matt

Applause. Man-Eating-Rabbit, that just kills me. :D

dps
07-26-2009, 05:18 AM
My father was an administrator in the New York City school system for close to 30 years.

The teacher was astounded, but was terminated just the same.

Now that would be an unbelievable feat!!!!

David

dps
07-26-2009, 06:19 AM
Have you found any explanations which you felt fit the bill? If you have, who (or which location/thread) seems to have had the most useful descriptions for you?

No, not completely as much as I am able to understand the explanations
.
I see that we need a common starting point that everyone ( there will always be at least one who won't) can agree on. To keep it simple, I suggest the first 38 seconds of the following link as that starting point. This describes what is going on outside the body ( the body being the orange block in the video) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG8CAmszH0

The question is what is going on inside the body to redirect the force(s) applied outside the body to the ground without the body collapsing?

David

lbb
07-26-2009, 08:22 AM
Mary,

You might be surprised by just what I know, or better yet what is not needed to have been know to respond as I did in that post. My repugnant view of philosophy in terms of its usefulness is echoed in two parts

"Repugnant"? Ok, then, out of your own mouth...

1. My Uncle is a quite well-known philospher, in his own right, and I was quite readily trained as such from a very early age. He was also a math genius as well as a child musical prodigy, too. As far as his great mind took him, and that was quite far, it did not prepare him for what life had queued up for him and thus he now is quite mad. You see, all the philosophy in the world just isn't enough to save even the brightest of minds. As in the case with my uncle and Socrates, alike, it does, often times condemn them...

I'm not sure where you're making the connection between my citing a statement by one philosopher and your uncle's madness. Perhaps your personal family tragedy has caused you to have an aversion to all things philosophical, much as someone who has lost a loved one in a plane crash might fear and hate all things relating to aviation. Much as I can sympathize with the feeling, and moreso with the events that give rise to it, I can't regard it as rational and sensible -- understandable, yes; sensible, no. I'm not telling you not to feel what you feel, but you might want to consider that your personal history is not shared by others, and that most others probably see some usefulness in philosophy. I'm not a navel-gazer, myself, but I find from time to time that a philosopher's words will help to distill or illuminate life experiences. Of course, without the life experiences to reflect on, it's all pretty empty to me. I find it very much like training in that regard: a whole lotta training, and then a little thinking to reflect on it (in terms of time spent), is about the right mix for me.

2. casual search on a review of the author and book to which you have referred unveils this poignant ditty (http://brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/1035), to which I must concur, right up at the top of the list...
[B]
John Ralston Saul, one of Canada's leading political philosophers, has <blahdeblahdeblah>

...and casual websearch on Barack Obama unveils that he is an illegal immigrant and an Islamist terrorist. Isn't the web wonderful?

So, perhaps the joke is not on me, but is your source and its author, instead.

Perhaps the joke is on the one who turned the subject to jokes in the first place.

...best in training to all..

Bless your heart!

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 09:31 AM
We have come a long way. In 2005, I didn't read anything about:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
Did you develop "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
How long did it take you to develop such things?
And not too much about: Are the hips driving your power or not?
Really? And you don't recognize what I said as a legitimate first step? And the last one.... That's interesting. :) There may be other things to learn, Rob!

However, the point is watching the change from yesterday to today, while saying that there's also going to be some change from today to tomorrow, so be careful out there and keep an open mind.

FWIW

Mike

Erick Mead
07-26-2009, 09:36 AM
I see that we need a common starting point that everyone ( there will always be at least one who won't) can agree on. To keep it simple, I suggest the first 38 seconds of the following link as that starting point. This describes what is going on outside the body ( the body being the orange block in the video) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG8CAmszH0

The question is what is going on inside the body to redirect the force(s) applied outside the body to the ground without the body collapsing?

DavidOK, the zombie master revives me. Beware. :hypno:

First. The diagram is NOT doing what we are doing to the block (if it were another person). The model shown is a translation (against sliding friction) without rotation --whereas what we are (usually) doing is fundamentally a rotation (every several different types and cycles) but rotations nonetheless. How do you move a refrigerator single-handedly?

Vectors are harder in many respects because they involve an abstract force with an acceleration term, and are hard to "see" when acting in more than one plane. Moment just involves distance and mass, and rotations from one plane to another are relatively easy to "see." Rather than using the method of vectors -- use the method of moments to analyze it and see what you get. The most efficient method of moving any mass is by rotations -- either directly or indirectly.

Second-- the resistance in your scenario is from ground friction. Think about how to defeat the ground friction of the mass using cycles of motion. Think about how without pushing on anything you get a swing to swing higher. It is a critically resonant pulse. Do that to the mass. People in some respects are easier because they are reflexively responsive to resonant pulses. What is going on in the body to do those things reflects what is being done outside the body by doing them.

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 09:49 AM
I am all for coming to some agreement that these things are important body skills which are paramount to develop in all martial arts. However, they are not the be all end all of O-Sensei's Aikido that many (of late) seem to try and hold them up to be. I agree absolutely. There are not the end all or the complete art and anyone who thinks just because they have some internal-strength they're knowledgeable about Aikido (or other arts) is simply wrong. I mentioned this (modified) old saying a few times, some years ago: "Aikido without a baseline of internal strength is no good; internal strength without really knowing Aikido won't work, either.".
I would certainly love to give it my best shot. I will say that I walked into one of my teacher's fists one time and it hurt me more than hitting my head in a car accident where I broke two telephone poles in half and broke my car into four pieces - and it just so happens that his fist wasn't moving. I have also had the pleasure to receive another teacher's 1 inch punch. Not the BS ones you see on youtube where people twist their hips and move their weight into their hand as their hip moves forward. I mean the kind where there is no visible explosion of movement in his body at all, but about a split second after contact, just as his fist is receding a powerful burst of energy hit me so hard that my body launched over five feet straight up and almost 10 feet to the rear. So, if you can do something like either of those two things, then, no... I couldn't resist it. Actually, I simply meant me putting the tips of my two fingers against you and pushing you easily off balance. In terms of 1-inch punches, I don't do 'em. If I'm playing with demos for funnsies, I use no-inch punch.
Yeah, that is why I said (momentum) it seemed so low level. I mean it seemed as though he was leaning into the uke and would have fallen forward had the uke pulled him back. No movement, no momentum... that was my point. "Angular momentum" is a frippery when it comes to describing these skills; what body movements can't be described as angular-momentum? See? ;)

These things are all one thing, Shaun. This was the beauty of the cosmology and the reason why all things came under the umbrella of Yin-Yang. You would argue that Ueshiba's "ai-ki" was something unique, yet he justified his ai-ki by referring to the Yin-Yang cosmology and the old Chinese texts. The Chinese of old would have argued that waht Ueshiba did was merely an aspect of the same hua-jin, etc., that has been present in various arts for a couple of thousand years. Who's right? You have your opinion; I'd calmly place my chips on the "everything is the same thing" square.
;)

FWIW

Mike

rob_liberti
07-26-2009, 11:38 AM
Really? And you don't recognize what I said as a legitimate first step?

Legitimate? Sure. It just seems like you keep wondering why people didn't catch on to what you were saying. And so I tried to explain the disconnect(s), especially for the benefit of some others here who might be trying to latch on to what *IT* can potentially mean to them.

And the last one.... That's interesting. :)

Again, yikes, but it seems like the meds have kicked in nicely, and we are all thankful for that.

However, the point is watching the change from yesterday to today,

We got that. :) The *additional point* was that maybe you were that poor misunderstood guy due to the message(s) you were delivering to your target audience. I'll take it to an extreme to make a point (that admittedly is not exactly an analogy here). I can imaging a situation where a movie house is on fire, and someone walks in calmy in and yells, "it sure is hot in the lobby"; and then laughs later at how the people were too dumb to know that meant get out because the place was on fire. It kind of reminds me how in NLP, they typically put the burden to be understood on the sender of the message. In our situation, I recognize that this is a considerable burden, as there are so many things working against understanding such a message (as described from my personal experience in the previous post).

And what's up with these two quotes?

There may be other things to learn, Rob!
...while saying that there's also going to be some change from today to tomorrow, so be careful out there and keep an open mind.

Of course. I'm all for being on the hyperbolic student side... I just made like 10 posts in this thread about just that. However, if you want to add to my list of skills I found valuable from my study of aiki - with skills you found valuable from your study of jin/whatever you call that skills set, please do. It think that would be HELPFUL (almost analogous to saying - "um hey folks, there is a small fire in the lobby, please exit in an orderly fashion" to torture a previous metaphor. Was it really *just me* who got that impression? Well, hey I'm thick.).

Rob

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 11:57 AM
Now that would be an unbelievable feat!!!!

David

David,

So nice to see that you have a good sense of humor. Many wouldn't know the actual power that the teacher's union has nor how they have truly damaged the national education system by raising costs and putting a system in place where terrible teachers can not be fired. Of course, Aikiweb is not the place for this conversation, and having retired 15 years ago because of the reasons to which you intimated, my father found that the NYC school system wasn't a place for him, either. Things have only gotten worse, but I blame the ebonix movement, and the pervasive integration of Rap/Hip-Hop music along with slang (poor grammar for the sake of looking cool) into the human consciousness due to the overwhelming influence of corporate America's need, like a drug dealer, to push images of inner city, low income and poor education in an effort to make us believe that they have embraced minorities and foreigner's choices to not learn proper English just so they can sell more McHamburgers and Nike/Addidas T-shirts and sneakers... Don't get me started on "Bloggers" whose combines weight has broken the back of quality, moral-driven news agencies, everywhere

...but that is a conversation for when we are old and vote republican in hopes of trying to roll things back to the GREAT 80's, you know that perfect decade of pure white decadence, where we still watched re-runs of The Brady Bunch and I Love Lucy. No irony there, as one had us watching a tortured, closeted homosexual father of six children and the other touted a misogynistic, broken-English muttering, conga playing Millionaire who liked to make his wife cry... No contradictory imagery there, but hey at least they advertised good old American tobacco, which we know doesn't cause cancer, and relaxes us with the smooth taste of Camel lights.

Get me outta here...

</sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek rant>.

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 12:03 PM
Again, yikes, but it seems like the meds have kicked in nicely, and we are all thankful for that.

We got that. :) The *additional point* was that maybe you were that poor misunderstood guy due to the message(s) you were delivering to your target audience. As usual, you're off into the personal stuff, Rob. I pass. Good luck with your training.

Mike Sigman

jss
07-26-2009, 12:24 PM
A running back with the ball is deep at the 20, zoning in for the touchdown. The only person in his way <snip>
I'd just like examples of "IT" and aiki.
Since I think your questions deserve an answer and since I answer them differently from Shaun, below are my answers. My definition of "IT" is a bit narrow (see my post earlier), but to me that is the most productive way to go for now.
"IT" and aiki: Chen Xiao Wang.
Could be "IT": the old farmer, the cook, the circus performer.
Neither: the running back, Dean and Harris, Alia and Toney, matador, Wing Tsun, the Taichichuan practitioners.

Is one a method of obtaining the other? Is it the only method? Are they the same thing? If not, can you have one and not the other?
No.
No.
No.
Yes, you can have "IT", but not aiki. You cannot have aiki, but not "IT".

jss
07-26-2009, 12:33 PM
Well, the fact is that all the "forms" of aiki taiso follow the shapes of and implement 3D shear dynamics.
<snip>
The spinal reflexes that control involuntary flexion and extension are uniquely sensitive to shear loading - because every structure is weakest in shear. Thus, by applying shear loading (nikkyo, sankyo grossly -- tekubifuri, furitama, much more subtly) one both attacks the weakest structural elements AND also triggers the body's protective mechanisms designed to shield those structures from excessive shear loading -- which can be exploited in "following the failure" if moving in concert with the natural form that such reflexive action takes long before conscious reaction can correct the situation.
So are you saying that the point of the aiki taiso is to learn how to apply shear to someone else's structure? Or does this way of moving also strengthen one's own structure against shear?

rob_liberti
07-26-2009, 12:42 PM
As usual, you're off into the personal stuff, Rob. I pass. Good luck with your training.

Maybe it was just my wicked sense of humor. I'm all for leaving things in the past. ;)

Why not contribute skills you found valuable from your study of jin/whatever you call that skills set?

Rob

Buck
07-26-2009, 12:49 PM
"Aikido without a baseline of internal strength is no good; internal strength...This was the beauty of the cosmology and the reason why all things came under the umbrella of Yin-Yang... The Chinese of old would have argued that waht Ueshiba did was merely an aspect of the same hua-jin, etc., "

I love language just like anyone one else. I use creative language myself all the time. But, I think there is a point where such language is ineffective. Especially translated languages combined with other languages that result in obscuring and befuddling the meaning, ideas, in this case principles. Or abstract language mixed with technical language. Sometimes I think this happens because there is lack of understanding of principles and languages.

If I was being orientated to a new dialect or nomenclature or jargon in a field I wasn’t familiar with I would be caught up in not knowing what the meanings behind the codes meant. I would try and associate the language for the sake of the meaning to things I was familiar with. I might be taken by the language and feel what I am learning is unique. Getting information that, I didn’t know about feeling it was new and then feeling as if I was missing something. This is happening, as a result of my immediate inability of not being able to decode the language completely or precisely of the meaning. Once I get familiar with the code I then make better associations with my own language. The more precise and accurate, and familiar associations to the meaning in my own language I am then able to translate the code to my language.

What does this have to do with Aikido and missing something, and with what Mike said? Well, when we get caught up in the art of language especially a foreign translated one that is designed to be obscure, not easily decoded, rooted in an unfamiliar pattern of expression and thinking we fail to completely associate and thus understand what it is we are suppose to. So then we are missing something, complete understanding.

Mike provides me with a good example of this as he uses coded language. Language rooted in Chinese thought and mysticism; much like that of Aikido. It is a language that is designed and intended to be obscure, hiding core principles or essential instrument (deemed as secrets) in coded language. And that obscurity can be compounded by things like translation.

One may think hey, I am missing something, in my Aikido. My teacher or my style may lack it or they are not telling me. Mike and others coming from a different tradition say here it is, and its delivery system is language initially or integrated and is coded as well. That happens by default, ignorance or what ever, but it happens.

But, if decode the language and associate to a familiar knowledge base we realize we are not missing a thing. What was missing was, like I said before, on realizing where our focus is place upon. For example, the term internal and the concept connected are nothing more then physics explained in a less precise and obscure language. Study and apply the principles of physics- mechanics, anatomy etc. and you will find the hidden buried secret booty.

Those who specialized in martial ways being famous teachers whose ideas are past down for centuries are rooted in the past. In a time where physics and such understand was not existence. In times where things like the sciences, chemistry, medicine and engineering where taking their first steps toward what we achieved today. Those people back then where as knowledgeable or have the resources or the availability, much less the precise and accurate language, we have today, in modern times.

Now to their credit they discovered applications and stuff that are mechanical that work on those principles. It’s all there. There is a limit to the human body and how it can be manipulated. There are just so many of those principles in physics that apply to the body. So it is all there. It is more for me a matter to drop the coded language not focus on that and focus on the art. It is all there waiting to be discovered, or should I say re-discovered.

For some they want the spoon-feeding method of teaching. That is fine, but the run the risk of being dependent on that method, and shall question, no matter what secret is reveled to them and by who, are them missing something, when in fact they aren’t missing anything at all.

In the elementary stages of learning the spoon-feeding can be useful for development and further study and learning. But it’s only function is an instrument for the bigger picture. And isn’t the only method of study and learning. And as the old Chinese proverb goes, “Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

I see greater potential with teaching methods that are self-sufficient models rather than the dependent models. That way the questions lead to a greater and deeper learning experience where you don’t ask yourself what are you missing and subscribing to dependency approach type of thingy and stuff.

Because the self- sufficient models have proven to be successful for all those great martial artists in the past, and among other things, it will be a benefit to those thinking they are missing something and re-placing their focus.

*The spoon-feeding teaching creates a dependency upon the teacher to provide information on a constant basis. It restricts the student from discovery, research skills, and independent thought and study. Something that is required of student by many good Universities. The higher the degree the more this approach is required of the student.

I would like to recognize Mike with the greatest respect, and not intent to debate or disrespect his comments. :)

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 12:57 PM
I love language just like anyone one else. I use creative language myself all the time. But, I think there is a point where such language is ineffective. Especially translated languages combined with other languages that result in obscuring and befuddling the meaning, ideas, in this case principles. Or abstract language mixed with technical language. Sometimes I think this happens because there is lack of understanding of principles and languages.

If I was being orientated to a new dialect or nomenclature or jargon in a field I wasn't familiar with I would be caught up in not knowing what the meanings behind the codes meant. I would try and associate the language for the sake of the meaning to things I was familiar with. I might be taken by the language and feel what I am learning is unique. Getting information that, I didn't know about feeling it was new and then feeling as if I was missing something. This is happening, as a result of my immediate inability of not being able to decode the language completely or precisely of the meaning. Once I get familiar with the code I then make better associations with my own language. The more precise and accurate, and familiar associations to the meaning in my own language I am then able to translate the code to my language.

What does this have to do with Aikido and missing something, and with what Mike said? Well, when we get caught up in the art of language especially a foreign translated one that is designed to be obscure, not easily decoded, rooted in an unfamiliar pattern of expression and thinking we fail to completely associate and thus understand what it is we are suppose to. So then we are missing something, complete understanding.

Mike provides me with a good example of this as he uses coded language. Language rooted in Chinese thought and mysticism; much like that of Aikido. It is a language that is designed and intended to be obscure, hiding core principles or essential instrument (deemed as secrets) in coded language. And that obscurity can be compounded by things like translation.

One may think hey, I am missing something, in my Aikido. My teacher or my style may lack it or they are not telling me. Mike and others coming from a different tradition say here it is, and its delivery system is language initially or integrated and is coded as well. That happens by default, ignorance or what ever, but it happens.

But, if decode the language and associate to a familiar knowledge base we realize we are not missing a thing. What was missing was, like I said before, on realizing where our focus is place upon. For example, the term internal and the concept connected are nothing more then physics explained in a less precise and obscure language. Study and apply the principles of physics- mechanics, anatomy etc. and you will find the hidden buried secret booty.

Those who specialized in martial ways being famous teachers whose ideas are past down for centuries are rooted in the past. In a time where physics and such understand was not existence. In times where things like the sciences, chemistry, medicine and engineering where taking their first steps toward what we achieved today. Those people back then where as knowledgeable or have the resources or the availability, much less the precise and accurate language, we have today, in modern times.

Now to their credit they discovered applications and stuff that are mechanical that work on those principles. It's all there. There is a limit to the human body and how it can be manipulated. There are just so many of those principles in physics that apply to the body. So it is all there. It is more for me a matter to drop the coded language not focus on that and focus on the art. It is all there waiting to be discovered, or should I say re-discovered.

For some they want the spoon-feeding method of teaching. That is fine, but the run the risk of being dependent on that method, and shall question, no matter what secret is reveled to them and by who, are them missing something, when in fact they aren't missing anything at all.

In the elementary stages of learning the spoon-feeding can be useful for development and further study and learning. But it's only function is an instrument for the bigger picture. And isn't the only method of study and learning. And as the old Chinese proverb goes, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime."

I see greater potential with teaching methods that are self-sufficient models rather than the dependent models. That way the questions lead to a greater and deeper learning experience where you don't ask yourself what are you missing and subscribing to dependency approach type of thingy and stuff.

Because the self- sufficient models have proven to be successful for all those great martial artists in the past, and among other things, it will be a benefit to those thinking they are missing something and re-placing their focus.

*The spoon-feeding teaching creates a dependency upon the teacher to provide information on a constant basis. It restricts the student from discovery, research skills, and independent thought and study. Something that is required of student by many good Universities. The higher the degree the more this approach is required of the student.

I would like to recognize Mike with the greatest respect, and not intent to debate or disrespect his comments. :)Well, in turn I'd suggest that what people understand in someone's writings depends on what their overall level of understanding is. Your suggestion is that you are not missing anything in your Aikido and that if there are any problems it must lie with someone else. Good for you. However, I think we had discussions along those lines a few years back, so to engage in that same discussion would be redundant all over again. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 01:12 PM
No, not completely as much as I am able to understand the explanations
.
I see that we need a common starting point that everyone ( there will always be at least one who won't) can agree on. To keep it simple, I suggest the first 38 seconds of the following link as that starting point. This describes what is going on outside the body ( the body being the orange block in the video) .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNG8CAmszH0

The question is what is going on inside the body to redirect the force(s) applied outside the body to the ground without the body collapsing?

David

David,

I think I see the issue...

I can only speak for myself here, but I do believe that if you asked Mike, Dan, Akuzawa Sensei, or somehow had the chance to ask O-Sensei to look at the video you posted a link to, no one would agree that what is being described has anything to do with what we are talking about and doing. Now I am sure many of your apparent mindset would reply with, "But it must" due to the fact that these are proven scientific methods and not mere theories at work. However, as I mentioned before, "humors" were once the science of disease, the earth was at the center of the universe and well, there are so many The-one-and-only God's that they can no longer be counted, so go figure...

Perhaps you can see a benefit of breaking away from your implicit need for everyone to speak a language that you understand. I know it is one you believe with all your heart is the language of the components of force. This could be a first step towards letting go of ideas that are not working for you to achieve what others in this thread most assuredly already have. I would go as far as to say this isn't a matter of just speaking as we do, but more like you need to take off the rose colored glasses in order to see the roses.

I want to ground the conversation in both reality and Aikido. When I first met Abe Sensei he would always talk about "loosing your power" (chikara-ga-nai) to counter the natural human condition whereby there is no real ki or kokyu generation (Ki/Kokyu-ga-nai). So, as a method of following his instructions, we would constantly try to do that thing that all the seniors kept telling us to do... "relax." Of course telling someone to relax doesn't really do anything towards helping them do just that, nor does it aid in understanding "losing one's power" that is part of the oral teaching which accompanies the waza. Later on, when I was accepted as a student of O-Sensei's Misogi-no-Gyo, I was introduced to "genshoku-no-gyo" which is a dietary training focusing on major reduction in one's food intake and an elimination of meat from the diet.

This training is several layers deep, and in and of itself is only the first level teaching given to the "outside" students. By design this teaching strips the body of muscle power by reducing muscle mass by a considerable (even dangerous) amount. For me, this translated to going from a solid 180 lbs down to 135 lbs in about 5 weeks. Facebook friends can see some of this in my martial arts photos from back around 1993 to 1996. I am not talking about losing water weight here, like the BS weigh-in methods used in sporting events. This is a real tear down of the body, and if you were attached to your muscles as much as I was at the time, your mind and ego, too. After about 18 months and down to about 125 lbs, the teaching, "let go of physical power" has real meaning.

Note: The teaching was always the same. It didn't change to suit my level of understanding. However, the language needed to understand this training is nothing less than experience. What I described is again only the second level of the outer teaching. The oral teaching that accompanies this phase of training has to do with changing the makeup of one's blood to alter the exchange of O2-Co2 and alter one's brain function. It is also accompanied with an explanation of one of the non-physical components having to do with altering one's thoughts, dreams and powering-up the powerful visualizations that accompany the Chikon-Kishin-no-Gyo training. Simply speaking, I was told, if I wanted to understand O-Sensei's mindset as a first step towards understanding his martial art, I would have to eat the way he did to change my blood and brain function along the same lines. This goes much, much further, but I am not permitted to discuss deeper levels of this particular training.

The point of my explanation is that experience has taught me to follow the instructions in order to understand the instructions at some point later on. The instruction you keep receiving is go and train with some of the people with whom you are interested in having this conversation. Without that experience the conversation has no real use and is really just a waste of time, yours and anyone who really does have the goods and would love to share them with you...

...best in training to all.

.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 01:22 PM
Shaun,

Do the people on that list:
- deliver force without committing weight?
- move freely without their balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
- have "heavy hands" and the ability to resist throws and manipulations?
- move so that their hips are not driving their power?
- successfully teach that to others in 5 years or so?

Or can you provide a list of valuable skills offered by the people on that *official* "list" and how long to acquire them?

Rob

Rob,

To be honest, you sound a bit like a "Stepford Wife" when you say ask me that. I simply don't define Aiki, nor Aikido in those terms. More than likely, none of my teachers would either.

Here is one for you, though:

When it comes to your questions, what do you honestly believe would be the answers if you had the chance to ask them of O-Sensei? I guess if you can't say what you think he might answer, observing O-Sensei's visual historical record, if I asked you the same questions about O-Sensei, how would you answer?

...best in training to all.

.

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 01:29 PM
Shaun.... aren't you getting a bit close to the "What would Jesus say..." sort of stuff. Nobody can claim to channel what Jesus would say, although many are sure they know the answer. I'd suggest that few of us are able to channel Ueshiba's position on things, either. How about some "how-to's" and other good stuff like that?

Best.

Mike Sigman

Ellis Amdur
07-26-2009, 01:49 PM
Hi Shaun -
Question: I recall an interview with Abe Seiseki in which he stated that Ueshiba would eat brown rice when he visited him (sort of "since that's what you want me to do as your guest"), but that this was not a diet he followed otherwise.
Furthermore, in perhaps the same interview, Ueshiba complained to Abe that as he got old, his muscles were sagging - but, Abe notes, he could "pop" them in a remarkable way.
Finally, in John Steven's new book, there are pictures of Ueshiba, shirtless, from the 1950's, and we see a guy with a massive build, like a power-lifter who doesn't eat too many carbs - he's actually cut.

So the questions are:
1. Are you asserting that the genshoku diet was something that Ueshiba followed at a certain phase of his training?
OR
2. Although Ueshiba didn't follow it, Abe (and others) found this to be a very efficacious method to get a student to properly use their body in a way congruent with what Ueshiba was doing?
Best
Ellis Amdur

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 01:54 PM
"Repugnant"? Ok, then, out of your own mouth...

I'm not sure where you're making the connection between my citing a statement by one philosopher and your uncle's madness. Perhaps your personal family tragedy has caused you to have an aversion to all things philosophical, much as someone who has lost a loved one in a plane crash might fear and hate all things relating to aviation. Much as I can sympathize with the feeling, and moreso with the events that give rise to it, I can't regard it as rational and sensible -- understandable, yes; sensible, no. I'm not telling you not to feel what you feel, but you might want to consider that your personal history is not shared by others, and that most others probably see some usefulness in philosophy. I'm not a navel-gazer, myself, but I find from time to time that a philosopher's words will help to distill or illuminate life experiences. Of course, without the life experiences to reflect on, it's all pretty empty to me. I find it very much like training in that regard: a whole lotta training, and then a little thinking to reflect on it (in terms of time spent), is about the right mix for me.

...and casual websearch on Barack Obama unveils that he is an illegal immigrant and an Islamist terrorist. Isn't the web wonderful?

Perhaps the joke is on the one who turned the subject to jokes in the first place.

Bless your heart!

Mary,

I don't know you, and you most certainly do not know me. I will refrain from replying to you in this thread, as from what I can tell you are seemingly more committed to meaningless attack and defense of issues and not really forwarding the topic. Perhaps you can take that as constructive criticism, but somehow I imagine, not...

However, should you care to drop that posture I may choose to chime back in, in your direction.

...best in training to you, and all.

PS - you were more than wrong in all of your stated assumptions. To illustrate the point, my uncle loved philosophy and was a much-beloved philosopher, musician, teacher, family man and all around person. What I said is that while it didn't prepare him for life, nor save his mind in the end, he never abandoned it, only revised it. As for me, I haven't abandoned philosophy by any means, as it is the crux around which I have built my life and martial arts practice. At the same time I am intimately aware that it is a crux, not a crutch with which I beat others over their head... at least any more...

As for your lame, "bless your heart" comment... Wouldn't that presuppose that I happen to have one? Like I said, you really don't know me at all...
.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 02:05 PM
OK, the zombie master revives me. Beware.

First. The diagram is NOT doing what we are doing to the block (if it were another person). The model shown is a translation (against sliding friction) without rotation --whereas what we are (usually) doing is fundamentally a rotation (every several different types and cycles) but rotations nonetheless. How do you move a refrigerator single-handedly?

Vectors are harder in many respects because they involve an abstract force with an acceleration term, and are hard to "see" when acting in more than one plane. Moment just involves distance and mass, and rotations from one plane to another are relatively easy to "see." Rather than using the method of vectors -- use the method of moments to analyze it and see what you get. The most efficient method of moving any mass is by rotations -- either directly or indirectly.

Second-- the resistance in your scenario is from ground friction. Think about how to defeat the ground friction of the mass using cycles of motion. Think about how without pushing on anything you get a swing to swing higher. It is a critically resonant pulse. Do that to the mass. People in some respects are easier because they are reflexively responsive to resonant pulses. What is going on in the body to do those things reflects what is being done outside the body by doing them.

:mad: :grr: :mad: :grr: :eek: :freaky: :crazy: :yuck: :hypno:

:straightf

Ah... Erick!

You reminded me of what I wanted to add to my reply post to David. Simply why the whole point of either of your approaches fails...

Aikido is not one inanimate object moving another inanimate object. Nor is it one person moving an inanimate object. Aikido and Aiki is a holistic approach to one's entire universe where there is no movement between things as there is only one thing in any given state of existence. The moment that state ceases to exist is the moment where Aiki ceases to exist. What takes place at the moment of Aiki (practically viewed in physical confrontation) is a fundamental shift in the consciousness between two animate objects whereby the distance time and functional delay between the two objects is constantly approaching zero at the speed of light.

...best in training to all.

.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 02:31 PM
I agree absolutely. There are not the end all or the complete art and anyone who thinks just because they have some internal-strength they're knowledgeable about Aikido (or other arts) is simply wrong. I mentioned this (modified) old saying a few times, some years ago: "Aikido without a baseline of internal strength is no good; internal strength without really knowing Aikido won't work, either.". Actually, I simply meant me putting the tips of my two fingers against you and pushing you easily off balance. In terms of 1-inch punches, I don't do 'em. If I'm playing with demos for funnsies, I use no-inch punch.well, actually the no inch punch (no movement) was what I was describing...

No movement, no momentum... that was my point. "Angular momentum" is a frippery when it comes to describing these skills; what body movements can't be described as angular-momentum? See? ;)True, but I was using Erick's term which you so like to wholly reject... Of course there is force, direction, acceleration and thereby momentum in all movement. However, my sense is that you wouldn't tend to describe IT in terms of those things. I wouldn't, either.

These things are all one thing, Shaun. This was the beauty of the cosmology and the reason why all things came under the umbrella of Yin-Yang. You would argue that Ueshiba's "ai-ki" was something unique, yet he justified his ai-ki by referring to the Yin-Yang cosmology and the old Chinese texts. The Chinese of old would have argued that waht Ueshiba did was merely an aspect of the same hua-jin, etc., that has been present in various arts for a couple of thousand years. I am not arguing for or against your point, Mike. I know that O-Sensei couched his teachings - in other words, what he said - in particular ways you describe. However, there are also two other ways he described the same thing, and those are simply much less known, the second of which was not couched in any such language. Why he did that is the key to understanding what he said at each level. In any case it is like trying to use yin-yang theory from both a Chinese and Japanese approach. In such a case one would fail because they are 180 degrees out of sync in terms of the direction of ki flow, one being counter clockwise and the other being clockwise. They both work when approaching a subject from one perspective or another, but you can not overlap them without complete conflict and contradiction. However, I think we might both agree that we are only talking about the internal steel structure of the building and not the building, itself.

Who's right? You have your opinion; I'd calmly place my chips on the "everything is the same thing" square.
;)

FWIW

MikeI am not really concerned so much with who is right, you or me. After all, you and I are not really significant in the greater scheme of Aikido, and most certainly not the greater scheme of CMA or JMA. However, since there are obviously different art forms, I still would like to have an answer from you and Dan and others as to what what is different, rather than what is the same. I mean both my apple and my desk are made up of atoms, but I simply find that the differences between these atoms are more important to me than the what is the same about them, especially around my favorite time of the day... dinner time!

...best in training to you and all.

.

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 02:47 PM
In any case it is like trying to use yin-yang theory from both a Chinese and Japanese approach. In such a case one would fail because they are 180 degrees out of sync in terms of the direction of ki flow, one being counter clockwise and the other being clockwise. That's not true, Shaun. It's an impossible statement. After all, you and I are not really significant in the greater scheme of Aikido, and most certainly not the greater scheme of CMA or JMA. However, since there are obviously different art forms, As I've said, these things are the same things, Shaun. Chinese, Indian, Japanese... the basic principles are the same. Dressing a doll up in a kimono or in Taoist robes make look like "different things" to someone who is looking at the superficial... but the doll is a doll, regardless of the outward appearances. That's why Ueshiba used Chinese classical descriptions in his writings about Aikido... he saw no real difference. The principles are the same.

When I take a Chinese expert to watch some Japanese m.a.'s he watches for if/how they use ki/qi... it would never dawn on him that anyone would think the basic principles of ki/qi are different because of geography or culture. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 03:02 PM
Shaun.... aren't you getting a bit close to the "What would Jesus say..." sort of stuff. Nobody can claim to channel what Jesus would say, although many are sure they know the answer. I'd suggest that few of us are able to channel Ueshiba's position on things, either. How about some "how-to's" and other good stuff like that?

Best.

Mike Sigman

I hear ya Mike, and I don't disagree when it comes to much of what you said. However, if you told me something and said, tell it to every 100th person who asks and when asked by anyone else, couch it all in Chinese cosmology, and I did that, then isn't it more than likely that 99 out of 100 people whom I tell will not really know what it was you were saying? In any case, Rob seems to have a set of qualifications he is using to determine who has IT. They are not my set of determining factors, they are his. I only asked him to apply his set of factors to achieving the goals of the martial art he is practicing to the Founder of the art he is practicing. I think the question is valid, but only to him, or anyone else accepting these baseline factors

...

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 03:06 PM
Rob seems to have a set of qualifications he is using to determine who has IT. They are not my set of determining factors, they are his. Well, Tohei seems to have decided a good foot in the door for Aikido would be the "ki tests" and that's generally what I think most of us (except Erick) are talking about. Will that work, or did Tohei miss what you were talking about, too? ;)

Mike

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-26-2009, 03:48 PM
That's not true, Shaun. It's an impossible statement.
Mike, I can't argue with you as I am only repeating a statement from a source who is one of the foremost authorities on macrobiotic ying-yang theory and how it both relates to and effects all levels and systems within the body. Perhaps there is a caveat where what you say is true and what he said doesn't apply. However, I would let you argue that with him. I would just love to have the two of you meet. Care to have me arrange it... you might just get your life out of it. Given that I was very sick and didn't know it until I had a consultation with him, I know I did.

As I've said, these things are the same things, Shaun. Chinese, Indian, Japanese... the basic principles are the same. Dressing a doll up in a kimono or in Taoist robes make look like "different things" to someone who is looking at the superficial... but the doll is a doll, regardless of the outward appearances. That's why Ueshiba used Chinese classical descriptions in his writings about Aikido... he saw no real difference. The principles are the same.Yes, you do keep saying that. However, you just haven't really been convincing, even in the least. Again, O-Sensei couched his teachings in certain ways depending on who he was talking to and more importantly who might also be listening in when he was talking. The videos or articles you have seen where he is speaking to an interviewer, or when he knows someone else might hear what he had to say after the fact were always done in a manner so as to not reveal anything to casual listeners. When I use the term casual, I am specifically including even people who would consider themselves well versed in the subject so that they would not be really able to find anything useful in what he had just said. This was by design. I get a very good laugh when I read or see what was said, because when you compare it to the actual teachings it is as funny as a Penn & Teller magic trick. You thought you knew what was going because they were giving you a behind the scenes look at how the magic is done, but low and behold, you still have no clue...

When I take a Chinese expert to watch some Japanese m.a.'s he watches for if/how they use ki/qi... it would never dawn on him that anyone would think the basic principles of ki/qi are different because of geography or culture. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

If that is the way a CMA thinks, then you are most certainly and most proficiently a CMA... At least now you have communicated in a way that I am able to truly understand the gap between what I say and what you hear. My apologies...

...best in training to you and all

.

Buck
07-26-2009, 04:12 PM
Well, in turn I'd suggest that what people understand in someone's writings depends on what their overall level of understanding is. Your suggestion is that you are not missing anything in your Aikido and that if there are any problems it must lie with someone else. Good for you. However, I think we had discussions along those lines a few years back, so to engage in that same discussion would be redundant all over again. ;)

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Maybe there is some miscommunication, and it happens :) not to further torture you on my end I well attempt, hopefully not like a bull in a china shop, to get it a better message across on my end. :D

I am suggesting there is nothing missing in Aikido depending on your focus. One, being self-sufficient in learning over dependent spoon-feeding. Two, don't look only at what is apparent, Three, whether the delivery system for principles be Chinese or Japanese in all its obscure and coded language, it all comes down to physics- it's all universal. When this is realized learning is excelled and a different prospective is taken. One doesn't fall in the trap of thinking they are missing something they need to seek out from others -such as yourself, rather they realize it is a matter of studying physics more and its application. The resource is there waiting, available to being applied, nothing is missing. :)

If you have already discussed this I understand.

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 04:15 PM
Mike, I can't argue with you as I am only repeating a statement from a source who is one of the foremost authorities on macrobiotic ying-yang theory and how it both relates to and effects all levels and systems within the body. Perhaps there is a caveat where what you say is true and what he said doesn't apply. Shaun, I'd suggest that you simply drop the idea. Just parroting what someone you respect told you is not the same thing as having some idea how things work. Let's just leave it that ki/qi works the same in Chinese and Japanese people and martial arts for all the purposes about which we're speaking.
Yes, you do keep saying that. However, you just haven't really been convincing, even in the least. Again, O-Sensei couched his teachings in certain ways depending on who he was talking to and more importantly who might also be listening in when he was talking. The videos or articles you have seen where he is speaking to an interviewer, or when he knows someone else might hear what he had to say after the fact were always done in a manner so as to not reveal anything to casual listeners. When I use the term casual, I am specifically including even people who would consider themselves well versed in the subject so that they would not be really able to find anything useful in what he had just said. This was by design. I get a very good laugh when I read or see what was said, because when you compare it to the actual teachings it is as funny as a Penn & Teller magic trick. You thought you knew what was going because they were giving you a behind the scenes look at how the magic is done, but low and behold, you still have no clue... Well, heh... I guess only certain people know that truth, Shaun, to here you tell it. Were you there? This reminds me too much of the sign outside a bar in Alaska that says, "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you!". How do you know which guy you are for sure, eh? Maybe you're the one who got cheated. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, there is that little bit about Tohei doing the same things I'm talking about.
If that is the way a CMA thinks, then you are most certainly and most proficiently a CMA... At least now you have communicated in a way that I am able to truly understand the gap between what I say and what you hear. I'm sure. Note that I only did Japanese martial-arts for 20+ years, contrary to all your comments about CMA's, Shaun. You seem to be hung up on this idea that there is some great difference between CMA's and JMA's. I'll bet you'd enjoy reading Ellis Amdur's book "Hidden in Plain Sight". I mentioned to Ellis one time that a lot of it wasn't so much hidden as simply ignored by people who thought they knew everything and couldn't accept the possibility that they were simply ignorant. I think Dan has implied that he gets that impression sometimes, too.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
07-26-2009, 04:23 PM
I am suggesting there is nothing missing in Aikido depending on your focus. I agree absolutely. Some people are completely fulfilled just to put on the costume and learn a few Japanese words and say, "Osu" a lot. There is nothing missing from their Aikido, either. God, I love tautology.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

lbb
07-26-2009, 08:00 PM
Mary,

I don't know you, and you most certainly do not know me. I will refrain from replying to you in this thread, as from what I can tell you are seemingly more committed to meaningless attack and defense of issues and not really forwarding the topic. Perhaps you can take that as constructive criticism, but somehow I imagine, not...

However, should you care to drop that posture I may choose to chime back in, in your direction.
.

Shaun, you're illustrating my point, and I understand you don't want to pursue it further, so that's an end of it. You assume the mantle of authority and claim control of the dialogue by labeling what I say as "meaningless", without either evidence or argumentation to support your use of this label. This is exactly what Saul is talking about. Again, I understand that this is not how you see events, so there's really nothing more to be said. I will treat you more courteously than you have treated me, and not attempt to invalidate your view of reality by stating that if you "care to drop that posture I may choose" to re-engage with you. Instead I'll simply say that we have no basis for communication as long as you continue to assert your authority and as long as I refuse to accept it.

Buck
07-26-2009, 08:54 PM
I would like to make some comments directed further to the topic.

As Aikidokas one of the challenges of being so is we are subjected, as most other martial artists are including CMA, to a traditional delivery systems of teaching. Within that or a part of that is the issue of communication and language previously discussed. But, what hasn't been discussed is the effects of being functionally fixed has on learning Aikido and how it restricts development and the impact on the ability of the Aikidoka to learn.

In all martial arts, there is a vulnerability to being Functionally Fixed. This can be caused by many reasons, one maybe language, i.e. the non-association of language. All martial artists are susceptible to suffering from being Functionally Fixed. This is an issue to look at when we talk about what is missing in Aikido.

Martial arts in its tradition can cultivate students and teachers being Functionally Fixed, a huge barrier to skill development and learning. It may also causes one to wonder if they are missing something.

The caution here is not recognizing the issue, and thus not finding the correct solution. But rather finding substitute the doesn't address the issue of being Functionally Fixed. So no matter what the new information offered to a student is, nor how it is delivered will not remedy being Functionally Fixed.

Here is another issue to be consider when we wish to improve our Aikido, the issue of being Functionally Fixed. We can unassisted look at ourselves and observe if this issue is effecting our learning and perspectives, and if applicable those we teach. Also, when we are learning or teaching in different ways outside or inside of Aikido, to what degree is being Functionally Fixed play a role, on our end and the teacher's.

What ever is missing, like in all things in life I caution against a quick apparent fix mind set. I think experience will support it is just the opposite. And that it is what we don't readily focus on see, or overlook is our best solution. Like being aware of being Functionally Fixed, being aware the answer/power is like Dorothy in the "Wizard of Oz" not with the Great and Almighty Wizard, but within her self, her perspective, which she had the whole time, and didn't realize it. :)

rob_liberti
07-26-2009, 10:22 PM
Shaun, I imagine O-sensei would say to me:
1 - Hey want to work out a bit?
2 - Do you see that golden cloud too?
3 - Can you help me tell people to stop writing "O'sensei" since I'm not Irish?
I could go on and on... :)

Seriously though, I'd have loved to ask the founder of aikido what he thought about my applying my set of factors to achieving the goals of the martial art. I would just prefer to discuss it with him as more of a peer in terms of physical ability.

If anyone feels that my set of qualifications to determine who has IT is off, by all means please chime in with your thoughts.

Rob

Erick Mead
07-26-2009, 10:30 PM
True, but I was using Erick's term [[angular momentum]] which you so like to wholly reject... Of course there is force, direction, acceleration and thereby momentum in all movement. However, my sense is that you wouldn't tend to describe IT in terms of those things. I wouldn't, either. Heh. ;) And then you go and use opposed rotations as an example:

In such a case one would fail because they are 180 degrees out of sync in terms of the direction of ki flow, one being counter clockwise and the other being clockwise. I wonder why that choice. Consider, rather than 180 degrees -- 90 degrees -- juuji.

I don't for a moment think that one HAS to use moment, angular momentum and resultant shears by this method for physical description -- I think it is just, mechanically speaking, simpler. Vectors work fine as long as you enjoy matrix algebra (Ew!), or insane parallel decision trees. There are others (e.g. - field operations) besides. But none as simple, I think. The method of moments for both dynamics and statics is quite intuitive and quite powerful.

I also find it interesting that this (http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/issue-6/training-tip.htm) way of looking at things as a physical model:

-- is somehow deemed wholly different and superior to this (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/aiki-physical-model-structure-dynamic-3259/) way:


It is interesting, is all.

Shaun, I would be interested in your thoughts on ki and its flow in light of this (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/aiki-physical-model-structure-dynamic-3259/).

Buck
07-26-2009, 11:46 PM
I would like to make some comments directed further to the topic.

:)

The final comment is about Aikido as a martial art, and I want to stress art in the word martial art. Let's view Aikido as an art, just as a fine art or from a craftmen's perspective. Let's take their approach and perspective in learning. If we do then we learn more intensely facing problems creatively, results in finding creative solutions to the problem. We break out of the stagnate rut, inciting new possibilities and growth. If we are always looking at Aikido with a creative eye.

When we do this we test new possibilities and angles. We force ourselves to shift our perspectives routinely constantly looking for answers and methods within the application of physics. New possibilities brings new knowledge from seeing something we are familiar with in a new way, and the many possible relationship that can be discovered. All of which brings on a renewable interest and desire to continue on to find all the possibilities that can be explored. In contrast, being the opposite, being stagnate and solidifying the attitude that all possibilities have been exhausted to an end with no favorable result.

Here again is the unseen the internal strength, I see. To change the way we preceive and practice the art. To unlock our minds and find what the forefather's of the art discovered who had less resource knowledge, which they had to find on their own, that leaded them to such heights and knowledge in their arts. They didn't have the stage already built to play on like we do today, they had to build their own stages if they want to play. Very little was know then about physics- mechnics, etc that we do now. None of them did it over night or with quick fixes. :)

That every word or concept, clear as it may seem to be, has only a limited range of applicability. (Heisenberg, The Tao of Physics, p35)

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-27-2009, 12:47 AM
Heh. ;) And then you go and use opposed rotations as an example: If you are referring to the quote found below, then I can say that my understanding is that according to Japanese macrobiotic yin-yang theory, the flow of ki from organ system to organ system is 180 degrees from that of the Chinese model. Given one is clockwise and one is counter clockwise, the method of treatment of the three organ systems (organ causing the symptomatic dysfunction, the organ that is already diseased and the organ that which when becomes sick will lead to severe sickness or death) treatment to prevent the flow of negative ki will be based upon two different organ systems depending upon which yin-yang principles one is following.

I wonder why that choice. Consider, rather than 180 degrees -- 90 degrees -- juuji.As I mentioned in the model above, there can not be anything other than 180 degrees out of sync. If you are referring to something else, please let me know what, specifically and I will try to address it.

With regards to your other questions, I have sent you a private message.

...best in training to you and all.

.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-27-2009, 02:06 AM
Shaun, I imagine O-sensei would say to me:
1 - Hey want to work out a bit?
2 - Do you see that golden cloud too?
3 - Can you help me tell people to stop writing "O'sensei" since I'm not Irish?
I could go on and on... :)

Seriously though, I'd have loved to ask the founder of aikido what he thought about my applying my set of factors to achieving the goals of the martial art. I would just prefer to discuss it with him as more of a peer in terms of physical ability.

If anyone feels that my set of qualifications to determine who has IT is off, by all means please chime in with your thoughts.

Rob

Rob,

I loved your reply. I will send you a private message in the next day or so...

...best in training to you and all.

.

dps
07-27-2009, 07:52 AM
OK, the zombie master revives me. Beware. :hypno:

First. The diagram is NOT doing what we are doing to the block (if it were another person). The model shown is a translation (against sliding friction) without rotation --whereas what we are (usually) doing is fundamentally a rotation (every several different types and cycles) but rotations nonetheless. How do you move a refrigerator single-handedly? .

I use vector meaning a force with a direction and magnitude. To walk a refrigerator I would use a force that can be broken down into several vectors. If I place my hands high enough on the refrigerator I can use the structure of the refrigerator as a lever. One of the vectors would be vertically up and another would be horzantally away from me. These two vectors would tilt the refrigerator's top away from me and lift the bottom of the refrigerator nearest me off of the floor reducing the surface area the refrigerator has with the floor thus reducing the amount of friction needed to overcome. Another vertical vector on one side would tilt the refrigerator more so that it is now balanced on one corner. An additional vector would be a horizontal one to one side of the refrigerator to rotate the refrigerator moving the free corners, beginning the walk.

Second-- the resistance in your scenario is from ground friction. Think about how to defeat the ground friction of the mass using cycles of motion. Think about how without pushing on anything you get a swing to swing higher..
For example a car stuck in mud. You need to apply force in a magnitude and direction to start the rocking and adding force with a magnitude and direction that would add to the momentum of the rocking car. A cycle of the car moving back and forth until there is enough momentum to unstick the car from the mud.
The swing would be similiar. It needs an initial force to get it swinging an additional pulses of force to increase the swing's movement.

David

David

Sy Labthavikul
07-27-2009, 10:29 AM
These two vectors would tilt the refrigerator's top away from me and lift the bottom of the refrigerator nearest me off of the floor reducing the surface area the refrigerator has with the floor thus reducing the amount of friction needed to overcome.

Sorry to sidetrack, but this misconception is one of my pet-peeves. Frictional forces are completely independent of surface areas between two objects. While smaller surface area between two objects would reduce the source of frictional forces, it also INCREASES the pressure between the two objects for a given force holding them together. Since pressure equals force divided by the area of contact, it works out that the decrease in friction generating area is EXACTLY offset by the increase in pressure; the resulting frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional coefficient of the materials and the FORCE holding them together.

Back to your normally scheduled program.

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 11:07 AM
So are you saying that the point of the aiki taiso is to learn how to apply shear to someone else's structure? Or does this way of moving also strengthen one's own structure against shear?At least one point of the aiki taiso is to teach one's own body to sense where and how shear arises in the body, how to move one's own body using shear instead of leverage, how to move safely in response to applied shear, and, lastly, by extension of all of the above -- how to harness shear within the body of another.

jss
07-27-2009, 12:29 PM
At least one point of the aiki taiso is to teach one's own body to sense where and how shear arises in the body
If we were to meet, how long would it take you to teach me this in its most basic form?
how to move one's own body using shear instead of leverage
How does that work? You use a lever to generate shear and you use the shear instead of the leverage as main power source?
how to harness shear within the body of another.
So there's good shear and bad shear? How do you differentiate the two?

DH
07-27-2009, 02:22 PM
Sorry to sidetrack, but this misconception is one of my pet-peeves. Frictional forces are completely independent of surface areas between two objects. While smaller surface area between two objects would reduce the source of frictional forces, it also INCREASES the pressure between the two objects for a given force holding them together. Since pressure equals force divided by the area of contact, it works out that the decrease in friction generating area is EXACTLY offset by the increase in pressure; the resulting frictional forces, then, are dependent only on the frictional coefficient of the materials and the FORCE holding them together.

Back to your normally scheduled program.
Also fits in with one my pet peeves
Let's put the weight of the refrigerator on top of a series of spindles supported by a series of different rotating swivels, supported by drawn wires with different counter supporting chains of force, and have then have the weight be far more fluid and controlled to respond to different vectors of force. Then lets have that mechanism control react differently everytime.
Write back when you have the math exact enough that you can defend it like a dissertation.

My favorite story is of playing with two structural engineers; one of whom is a nationally recognized expert who has been brought in to resolve various troubled projects, including our own big dig and air port sublimation issues.
I let him and his associate push me, pull me, and what not and they said...that's impossible! Once I explained it and even had them do some things a little bit they went off on each other cracking up on how difficult it would be to have to try an model that.

I have the sneaking suspicion that this is like a job site. Those doing the engineering...cannot do the actual work!:D
Cheers
Dan

Walker
07-27-2009, 02:36 PM
Hi Shaun -
Question: I recall an interview with Abe Seiseki in which he stated that Ueshiba would eat brown rice when he visited him (sort of "since that's what you want me to do as your guest"), but that this was not a diet he followed otherwise.
Furthermore, in perhaps the same interview, Ueshiba complained to Abe that as he got old, his muscles were sagging - but, Abe notes, he could "pop" them in a remarkable way.
Finally, in John Steven's new book, there are pictures of Ueshiba, shirtless, from the 1950's, and we see a guy with a massive build, like a power-lifter who doesn't eat too many carbs - he's actually cut.

So the questions are:
1. Are you asserting that the genshoku diet was something that Ueshiba followed at a certain phase of his training?
OR
2. Although Ueshiba didn't follow it, Abe (and others) found this to be a very efficacious method to get a student to properly use their body in a way congruent with what Ueshiba was doing?
Best
Ellis Amdur

I, for one, would really like to see Ellis' questions addressed.

thisisnotreal
07-27-2009, 02:46 PM
my pet peeve is that I don't know the different kinds of work to do!
(Thanks again to R. John (and others?) for posting descriptions of actual jibengong/shugyo)

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-27-2009, 03:42 PM
I, for one, would really like to see Ellis' questions addressed.
Hi Doug,

Sorry, I was actually answering private AikiWeb messages until around 4:00 this morning. I got sidetracked by another thread, here and as I am working today have just now had the chance to chime back in here.

So with regards to your request. I have two things to say

1. I already answered Ellis, but chose to do so ...PRIVATELY!

2. In the case that you wanted any of your own questions answered, please go ahead and ...ASK THEM!

OK -- back from my regularly scheduled sarcasm... No, seriously, Doug, Ellis's questions were great, and truly do deserve a full answer. However with questions as important as these, about a subject as important as this, there are some points that I just don't want to make a statement about until I check my facts for accuracy and completeness. I gave a fairly detailed account of my thoughts to Ellis already, noting where the gaps in my information were. He also gave me some things to chew on, too. I need to take his points into account and then arrange my thoughts into intelligent questions which then need to be forwarded up through the proper channels, (which in this case is at least two, or three different sources) after being translated into Japanese, of course and that is only when there is an opportunity to do so. Then there is the wait for a answer to come back down the line, the time it takes for translation back into English all before it gets forwarded back to me to break down and edit, polish into cogent responses to the original questions plus the time it takes to type it up and post it here on AikiWeb... I mean I wish I could just pick up a phone, or send a text message, but it just doesn't work that way in certain circles when it comes to certain individuals. No matter how some things may change most things remain the same... Can ya feel me?

Sometimes things derail the process so there is a chance that the answers will not come. However, I will be sure to post a reply once something comes across the wire. If that doesn't happen. I may just have to post some of what I know combined with what I feel might best answer the questions for the public's consumption. I hope you can be sympathetic to my position. In any case I do feel that this is one of the single most important issues to come up in a long time because there is so much related background material that people would find truly fascinating. I know I did, and it changed my thoughts and practice considerably for more than a decade. For those who are interested, we did an article back in the old Off the Mat, publication (circa-1994) entitled, Eating Aikido that is a great place to start if you can find a copy. The interview is somewhere on the web, I believe, but if not, perhaps I can scan it and post a link to it.

For anyone interested...
The above process is why we chose to stop publishing the old Tenshin Dojo Newsletter, Off the Mat which, by the way, was supposed to be renamed (get this...) Aikido Journal. However, between the two issues where the name change was supposed to take place, Aiki-News became Aiki-Journal. At the Senior Staff meeting we decided, after a very, very long debate about the subject, to change the name to simply AIKIDO It was maybe a year or so later that Aiki-Journal finally became Aikido Journal.

.

jss
07-27-2009, 04:08 PM
For those who are interested, we did an article back in the old Off the Mat, publication (circa-1994) entitled, Eating Aikido that is a great place to start if you can find a copy. The interview is somewhere on the web, I believe, but if not, perhaps I can scan it and post a link to it.
The best I could Google is this (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118011&postcount=63), an earlier post of yours here on Aikiweb. So please scan the interview and put it online, if you have the time.

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 07:30 PM
I use vector meaning a force with a direction and magnitude. To walk a refrigerator I would use a force that can be broken down into several vectors. If I place my hands high enough on the refrigerator I can use the structure of the refrigerator as a lever. One of the vectors would be vertically up and another would be horzntally away from me. These two vectors would tilt the refrigerator's top away from me and lift the bottom of the refrigerator nearest me off of the floor reducing the surface area the refrigerator has with the floor thus reducing the amount of friction needed to overcome. Another vertical vector on one side would tilt the refrigerator more so that it is now balanced on one corner. An additional vector would be a horizontal one to one side of the refrigerator to rotate the refrigerator moving the free corners, beginning the walk.Keying off Sy's pet peeve -- what you described was actually not using leverage -- Why? Because there was no fixed fulcrum. If you set up a lever and the 'fulcrum' can move (or fail) that tendency to move defines a shear -- it is moving in shear if it is hinged. If it were, say a pencil as our lever, the shear is the stress that breaks the pencil. Your assumption is that the opposite edge of the fridge IS the fulcrum, and it isn't -- not any more than the opposite side of a large rock still resting on the ground after you lever it with a stick on a smaller rock as fulcrum. By setting a fixed leg triangle with a connecting hinge at the top and then shortening the base fixed length, you lift the fridge onto one edge -- in shear.

A cycle of the car moving back and forth until there is enough momentum to unstick the car from the mud.
The swing would be similiar. It needs an initial force to get it swinging an additional pulses of force to increase the swing's movement.All the swing needs its gravity and a clever moving fulcrum suspended from it. In other words it is a double pendulum.
By altering the position of the CG in the seat (the effective fulcrum in this scenario) with regard to the line of suspension, gravity causes it to swing into line with the altered CG. The moving fulrcum identifies a shear which is coverting action of gravity into a different axis. If resonance is achieved (where the CG shift occurs at a zero velocity cusp ( the peak of swing) then the system can be driven to its dynamic structural limits (which may or may not be more than the material structural limits.)

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 07:40 PM
So are you saying that the point of the aiki taiso is to learn how to apply shear to someone else's structure? Or does this way of moving also strengthen one's own structure against shear?Both. The trick is to move the effective fulcrums around in a persons body. Sometimes their body "cooperates" reflexively from a pulse of proper shaped/rhythm suddenly shifitng the "center" or effective fulcurm deeply into their body before they can act to oppose its shift. The "head-pop" trick from "jerking" the arm is of this nature.

Sometimes one can (as in kokyu tanden ho) find the "thin end of the wedge" in a very slight shear at the connection and then steadily propagate that shear moving the poised moments defining the effective"fulcrum" further and further into the structure (becoming progressively more difficult to oppose with levered power (because the effective "lever" arm on their end is getting progressively shorter.) Theya re the same, only the latter allows the conscious and subconcsious mind to both to perceive what is occurring structurally, and to better coordinate their rather different forms of learning . That learning allows one steadily learn to better "catch" and "throw back" if you will, the shifting shear center being thrown one's way.

dps
07-27-2009, 07:50 PM
Keying off Sy's pet peeve -- what you described was actually not using leverage -- Why? Because there was no fixed fulcrum. If you set up a lever and the 'fulcrum' can move (or fail) that tendency to move defines a shear -- it is moving in shear if it is hinged. If it were, say a pencil as our lever, the shear is the stress that breaks the pencil. Your assumption is that the opposite edge of the fridge IS the fulcrum, and it isn't -- not any more than the opposite side of a large rock still resting on the ground after you lever it with a stick on a smaller rock as fulcrum. By setting a fixed leg triangle with a connecting hinge at the top and then shortening the base fixed length, you lift the fridge onto one edge -- in shear.

Okay, I understand what shear is.
Is ikkyo applying shear?

All the swing needs its gravity and a clever moving fulcrum suspended from it. In other words it is a double pendulum.
By altering the position of the CG in the seat (the effective fulcrum in this scenario) with regard to the line of suspension, gravity causes it to swing into line with the altered CG. The moving fulrcum identifies a shear which is coverting action of gravity into a different axis. If resonance is achieved (where the CG shift occurs at a zero velocity cusp ( the peak of swing) then the system can be driven to its dynamic structural limits (which may or may not be more than the material structural limits.)

I thought you meant someone on the ground pushing the swing not someone in the seat with no contact with the ground, okay.

David

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 08:00 PM
:mad: [[etc. etc.]]
:straightf

Ah... Erick!

You reminded me of what I wanted to add to my reply post to David. Simply why the whole point of either of your approaches fails... Nor is it one person moving an inanimate object. Aikido and Aiki is a holistic approach to one's entire universe where there is no movement between things as there is only one thing in any given state of existence. The moment that state ceases to exist is the moment where Aiki ceases to exist. You have only half of my approach in this thread. Read my thoughts (here in various places) on myth and spirituality. I believe that spirit has concrete expression and that concrete expression requires a proper spirit to be effective . This happens to be a discussion about the concrete expression, but I do not deny the aspects you address.

Aikido is not one inanimate object moving another inanimate object. True but there are concrete ways that animate objects relate to one another, beofre and in conjunction with their "lively" and spirited relations. I have a higly committed view of Western Spirituality that does not in the least seek to demean, deny or devalue what other forsm have found to be true. Truth is never to be feared, by whomsoever it is said

What takes place at the moment of Aiki (practically viewed in physical confrontation) is a fundamental shift in the consciousness between two animate objects whereby the distance time and functional delay between the two objects is constantly approaching zero at the speed of light. I tend to agree. But that interaction has aspects of approach that are the same (not merely similar) in nature, at varying and much grosser scales of interaction, more easily available to the less refined sensibilities -- if they are properly pointed out at those grosser scales so that observation can lead to more refined observations at finer scales. If you would read the thoughts in the dialogue on my view of KI it may be more clear what the range of my thought actually is on this issue. I commend it to you, at the very least to ease your mind that I am not as purely "materialist" as my careful cabining of this physical discussion might otherwise suggest.

If nothing else, may I, respectfully, suggest that the next time you see Abe Sensei, ask him about the nature and spirit of calligraphy as it touches upon martial action (I studied Chinese and a modicum of calligraphy myself.) Show him some Lissajous figures and some harmonograms and then ask him what he thinks of them -- are they related in any way to what he sees connecting calligraphy and budo, or not.

:)

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 08:06 PM
Okay, I understand what shear is.
Is ikkyo applying shear? Bingo. Then torsional shear is introduced in Nikkyo and Sankyo. Nikkyo's torsional shear pulse triggers reflexive leg flexors. Kotegaeshi ditto. Sankyo triggers reflexive leg extensors. Then in yonkyo (also extensors) the projection of shear is learned with less obvious levers to set up the initial shear point.

dps
07-27-2009, 08:33 PM
Bingo. Then torsional shear is introduced in Nikkyo and Sankyo. Nikkyo's torsional shear pulse triggers reflexive leg flexors. Kotegaeshi ditto. Sankyo triggers reflexive leg extensors. Then in yonkyo (also extensors) the projection of shear is learned with less obvious levers to set up the initial shear point.

Got it.

David

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 09:11 PM
... my understanding is that according to Japanese macrobiotic yin-yang theory, the flow of ki from organ system to organ system is 180 degrees from that of the Chinese model. ... treatment to prevent the flow of negative ki will be based upon two different organ systems depending upon which yin-yang principles one is following.

As I mentioned in the model above, there can not be anything other than 180 degrees out of sync. If you are referring to something else, please let me know what, specifically and I will try to address it.. Resonance. It is a physical principle, but much deeper than that. When two cyclic systems interact they can meet in various phases. There are constructive phases -- peak meets peak; there are destructive phases where peak meets valley; and then there is resonance. Resonance is where the systems relate in angle of 90 degrees difference in time or in space. In spatial terms is is called harmonic movement and is very distinctive and "alive" in appearance. Resonance is where zero meets a valley or peak. The thing is, the zero in these circumstance is a moving zero, rising or falling though zero, a momentary but highly critical position where there is "no resistance" to additional inputs -- either to add to the trend or to diminish it. Where rising zero is met with peak it can drive a system out of its normal boundaries, if a rising zero is met with a valley, it can pull a destablizing system back within bounds. If progressive in positive phase it can drive the system to the point of structural disintegration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTZ446tbzE) or if progressive in negative phase, damp it to a minimum energy state.

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 09:51 PM
My favorite story is of playing with two structural engineers; one of whom is a nationally recognized expert who has been brought in to resolve various troubled projects, including our own big dig and air port sublimation issues.
I let him and his associate push me, pull me, and what not and they said...that's impossible! Once I explained it and even had them do some things a little bit they went off on each other cracking up on how difficult it would be to have to try an model that. Funny thing about aeronautical engineers like Rutan, he makes things everybody else, including other engineers, thought could not possibly fly or fly well. Then he sets records with them. He is going into space these days... In short, there are engineers and then there are aeronautical engineers, ...

The reason is that the Navier-Stokes equations are a big unmapped mountain to climb -- describing fluid flow and shear vortices. Funny things -- they have no general model (or universally defined 3D mathematical solutions) that can be derived from them -- one of the most intractable problems in mathematics, actually. Only local solutions are known within certain sets of established parameters derived from empirical observation. Those have to be discovered. New solutions cannot be easily predicted from prior successful parameters. In short, they are not linear. Engineers who like reliable, generally predictive models despise or have great distaste for Navier-Stokes equations. Those guys make things like Reynolds numbers and stay in well mapped areas. Rutan didn't have any Reynolds tables for reentry transitions with his "falling leaf" design.

Does anybody see anything interesting to compare there in what Ikeda is doing and teaching? If not then you weren't paying attention.

There are engineers who like design but not flying, and pilots who fly and care nothing about engineering. On the other hand, there are engineers who like to fly and pilots who like the engineering. The latter two both see the same stuff in slightly different but related ways/ They "get" the way planes want to fly and the way things like shear want to function when they start to see its recognizable contours operating in a given setting. They are like mountain climbers who just like to go see if the route is passable over the next ridge. Everybody else thinks they are nuts, but they are certain before they go that the shape of the ridge is right to go over.

Mike Sigman
07-27-2009, 10:45 PM
Whether using the mysterious ki paradigm or the mysteries of science and engineering.... I think you guys are way over-complicating this subject. But hey.... everyone has to choose their own way. It was the beauty of a simple pattern that was the cosmological attraction of all these things, not some great complexity.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
07-27-2009, 11:25 PM
If we were to meet, how long would it take you to teach me this in its most basic form? In its most basic form it is seen in tai no henko (done properly) and in tenchinage. Two minutes. But then, I can teach you the rules of Go in two minutes, too, but I would not put money on it at that point...

Better, let me tell you, you try and see if it makes sense, then do tai no henko the same way, on your own. Take two pencils or chopsticks and a square of duct tape and tape them together with about a quarter inch of space between the ends, they should bend easily at the joint.

Now hold them in thumb and forefinger in each hand and (gently) try to lever one with the other. Though it will bend slightly at the hinge - it won't work well. Then gently push the two together so they are stable in compression. Now instead of levering, let the connection fail and it will hinge (suddenly) out and collapse. That is shear. The shear is now at the hinge instead of at your thumb and forefinger (where it was when you tried to lever it). In fact, if you are applying leverage when doing it you will not be able to make it fail properly.

After you play with it for a while you can make it fail in an arbitrary direction (up, down, in or out). If you pay attention to the means of doing this kid's game it begins with a slight displacement of a hinge closer to the core (usually the wrist) of the same kind as the displacement of the pencil hinge -- which is then moved to the pencil hinge. The shear is inherently rotational and this moment can be moved, like a wave, because it is a wave. If you ever did the "rubber pencil" trick you did the same thing by moving the center of rotation back and forth along the length of the rigid pencil.

Now, tai no henko is the same, engage the connection with the same slight but stable compression, and then make it fail in the same way by beginning the shear in the core, then feed that into the connection and follow the failure progressively.

How does that work? You use a lever to generate shear and you use the shear instead of the leverage as main power source?Think of it more in terms of creating propagating structural failure -- not power. If you have concern about structural failure lacking necessary power -- stand in a building undergoing controlled demolition. :D

So there's good shear and bad shear? How do you differentiate the two?Yes, depends on the perspective I suppose. The bad shear is the one you missed ... but the other guy saw. If you see it you can make it keep failing the way it is already failing -- but so can he ... Since it can be shifted around in both structures, it is a very powerful multiplier. The problem is that the body is very, VERY concerned with avoiding misplaced shear because it can be so catastrophically destructive. Spinal reflexes (triggered by nikkyo, sankyo, yonkyo kotegaeshi) therefore are extraordinarily sensitive to the onset of potentially destructive torquing shears, and react structurally before conscious (cerebral) or even subconscious (cerebellar) action can be directed. Of course, we can "train the beast" -- learn to modulate the reflexes to counter or return the shear, by the same means of detection and action as are applied to us.

Walker
07-28-2009, 12:59 AM
Shaun,
Thanks for addressing my interest. It's not pressing so I'll keep an eye open and or chat up Ellis next time we cross paths.

Ellis Amdur
07-28-2009, 01:51 AM
Me?, I've got nothing to say on the subject of what Shaun might have said in a PM - if for no other reason that I have no experiential knowledge of what he partially described - I, too, will wait for what Shaun hopefully reports from "upstream."
Best
Ellis

Walker
07-28-2009, 02:00 AM
Me?, I've got nothing to say on the subject of what Shaun might have said in a PM - if for no other reason that I have no experiential knowledge of what he partially described - I, too, will wait for what Shaun hopefully reports from "upstream."
Best
Ellis

Rodger Dodger, Over and out!

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 08:18 AM
It was the beauty of a simple pattern that was the cosmological attraction of all these things, not some great complexity. Curious choice of word, "attraction." A simple logistics formula leads to a beautiful, startling, yet familiarly complex pattern -- which is not simple at any scale.

It is a greater attraction -- though simple to state, it is impossible to exhaust -- IOW, the universe really does not care for simple patterns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/Normalized_Iteration_Count_Algorithm.png/180px-Normalized_Iteration_Count_Algorithm.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Mandel_zoom_13_satellite_seehorse_tail_with_julia_island.jpg/140px-Mandel_zoom_13_satellite_seehorse_tail_with_julia_island.jpg

jss
07-28-2009, 08:48 AM
In its most basic form it is seen in tai no henko (done properly) and in tenchinage. Two minutes. But then, I can teach you the rules of Go in two minutes, too, but I would not put money on it at that point...
I already know the rules of go, so that gives us four minutes.;)

Better, let me tell you, you try and see if it makes sense, then do tai no henko the same way, on your own.<explanation snipped>
I'm at work now, I'll save that for when I get home.

Think of it more in terms of creating propagating structural failure -- not power. If you have concern about structural failure lacking necessary power -- stand in a building undergoing controlled demolition. :D
This would imply that shear cannot be used to execute a no-inch punch, which means you're talking about a different 'IT' than I am. Or would you say that the difference between an 'external' and an 'internal' punch lies in the fact that the 'internal' one propagates structural failure? If so, how do you explain that it's possible to demonstrate the difference between these two punches on a punching bag?

rob_liberti
07-28-2009, 09:11 AM
Erick,

Please consider making a youtube video of your shear explanation. If you could then show how that relates to tai no henka in the video it would be great but it'd appreciate just seeing a vid of the 2 pencil -contraption you described.

dps
07-28-2009, 09:52 AM
Curious choice of word, "attraction." A simple logistics formula leads to a beautiful, startling, yet familiarly complex pattern -- which is not simple at any scale.

It is a greater attraction -- though simple to state, it is impossible to exhaust -- IOW, the universe really does not care for simple patterns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/01/Normalized_Iteration_Count_Algorithm.png/180px-Normalized_Iteration_Count_Algorithm.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/Mandel_zoom_13_satellite_seehorse_tail_with_julia_island.jpg/140px-Mandel_zoom_13_satellite_seehorse_tail_with_julia_island.jpg



Mandelbrot patterns,
Simplicity out of complexity,
Beauty out of chaos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_GBwuYuOOs

David

Lee Salzman
07-28-2009, 10:26 AM
This would imply that shear cannot be used to execute a no-inch punch, which means you're talking about a different 'IT' than I am. Or would you say that the difference between an 'external' and an 'internal' punch lies in the fact that the 'internal' one propagates structural failure? If so, how do you explain that it's possible to demonstrate the difference between these two punches on a punching bag?

Would it? I think we really need to go back and consider what is special about the "no-inch punch" (that term drives me insane, really, it does!) and what, if anything, makes it applicable as what is "missing" from aikido.

Within certain modes of training, displaying power over short distances is actually much easier than displaying power where your own body moves over long distances. Why? Because the power in both cases is generated from the same source, but you are trying to carry it over a longer distance without it being dissipated within the tension of your own body. You don't want to get in the way of your own acceleration, which converts into work on something else once it impacts it.

The first thing you need to exert power over any distance competently is unity of movement across most joints in the body. If any of the joints activate at different times, power will simply bleed out of or be dissipated within the next joint in line. This movement needs to be extremely powerful and it needs to be extremely sudden, the goal being acceleration.

The next thing you will need is unity of relaxation, so that you can completely relax everything in your body, at the same time, so that you don't decelerate all that nice force you just generated, and that it will carry through your body over whatever distance to the target. Much the same with movement, any disunity or sluggishness and you've wasted some of your power.

The next thing, the part everyone loves, impact. At the exact moment of impact, your body, which was just completely limp only a fraction of a second ago, now must turn as solid as a rock with that same unity of power so that when you hit the target you don't flop off like a fish or give yourself whiplash from your own impact - neck and chattering teeth being strong considerations there. If you've got a rigid connection to the ground at this point, even better. You can then suddenly retract all that power, like with the initial explosion that generated the acceleration, and just let the target wobble around since it is no longer supported by your fist... Or you can just continue to push through it till it flies away.

This is probably by no means the only mode of generating power, but it is at least a way.

Now, take that same study of power, and reduce it to a starting scenario where you just happen to be touching the target already. Hell, there is basically nothing more to do than the initial explosion of power and letting it carry into the target. You've skipped all the skill and control required of those initial parts of just getting power to the target. It makes the concept of "short power" seem relatively mundane by comparison, no?

Now, would it help having a working model of how your body can be organized such that you know what structure to train into your body underlying all this power, without reference to another person, such that it would improve your ability to hit a heavy bag? Yes, yes it would.

Mike Sigman
07-28-2009, 10:34 AM
A simple logistics formula leads to a beautiful, startling, yet familiarly complex pattern -- which is not simple at any scale.

It is a greater attraction -- though simple to state, it is impossible to exhaust -- IOW, the universe really does not care for simple patterns: These things are skills and all interrelated (the ki skills). Together they form a coherent whole that is analogous to a "forest", for instance. Could you analyse each tree down to the xlyem and phloem and down to the molecules and atoms? Sure... but in that case you wouldn't be seeing the forest because of the trees. An apt analogy for your analyses, I think.

fwiw

Mike Sigman

phitruong
07-28-2009, 10:58 AM
whoa! you lots still here discussing about IT? would have thought you are all gone practicing aikido or something. :eek:

you folks should go and experience hand-on stuffs with the internal folks (not at dimsum place!). if it's not your cup of tea then you only lost a bit of time and money, not a big deal. but if it opens up other things for you, then wouldn't that worthwhile? even experts go and learn from other experts.

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 12:25 PM
I already know the rules of go, so that gives us four minutes.;) No. Then we would have to play, and then drink, and then well, the night is about shot at that point ... ;)

This would imply that shear cannot be used to execute a no-inch punch, which means you're talking about a different 'IT' than I am. Or would you say that the difference between an 'external' and an 'internal' punch lies in the fact that the 'internal' one propagates structural failure? If so, how do you explain that it's possible to demonstrate the difference between these two punches on a punching bag?Not at all. The stick-and-tape example is a planar shear. Though we can choose the plane in which to make the shear occur, it is initially at least in one plane defined by the sticks, for simplicity of demonstration. The body is more like a chain or whip -- very many short sticks bound flexibly. The good stuff thus comes in three dimensions with fluid movement (http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1856&cat=503)and "odd" attributes like "loose" transfer of momentum --- i.e -- wholly without any compressive "pushing." See here (http://math.arizona.edu/~ura/031/Taft.Jefferson/Report.pdf)

But the no-inch punch is a very simple example (though difficult to learn to coordinate with "expression") of releasing a poised torsional shear. See here (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/aiki-physical-model-structure-dynamic-3259/) again, if you have not already. The extension/contraction produced is described as asagao -- which is the opening/closing motion of the morning glory flower (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuJfhhaxdz8).

Stand easily facing a wall at arms length, feet square, palms up fingers extended and touch your middle finger to the wall. Now, press with your center to compress your arms without flexing anything. Now, turn your palms down without changing anything else. You will find that your arms have extended and your weight is now shifted back toward the heel of your foot. Keep turning the palms the same way until they face outboard to either side, you will find you are now rocked back almost entirely on your heels. Congratulations. You have just performed kokyu tanden ho on yourself by reflection against a wall and sheared yourself off your own support.

Now the no-inch punch does the same thing inversely, where you "throw" all of that shear (representing all the momentum of your body), rolled out into the torsional extension to the two square inches of the fist. It is the same thing as cracking a whip. It is the same thing in momentum (actual movement) affecting the dynamic stability of the opponent (or punching bag) that was expressed as a static shift of stability moment (potential movement) when you reflected yourself off your support using the wall.

And that would basically be the situation with your punching bag. But as Shaun suggests, living opponents are much more interesting. When a punch is delivered with a certain pulse rhythm (about 10hz -- also called furitama) it just happens to be the at resonance frequency of the human body. We know this because when you do furitama it bounces you on and off your heels -- that is resonance occurring. These shear mechanics naturally tend to find resonant rhythms.

The pulse thus delivered resonates to "rattle" his structure -- like a vibrating sandbox, it cannot create much reaction to the impact, nor support much of anything. The shear wave generated is fully and uncontrollably realized throughout his structure, finding any discontinuities in it (i.e - poised levers) and making them structurally unsound (and potentially damaging the structure -- for which reason it must be done with care). And for this reason, if done very correctly it "pops" his own protective reflexive actions into the bargain, to added effect.

Turning the situation around, conversely, in absorbing an arbitrary impact the same is true. As long as there are no discontinuities in the body other than the floor connection, and the body is primed to receive and allow an impact or input to flow through without much harm in this way, and either the flexible connections can reverse the wave through a 3D transform -- OR the floor discontinuity can be used to reflect it back out again. Either way, one can allow the shear to generate useful reflexive shear movements in your own body, thus capturing, reflecting or reversing, modulating that shear wave (and with perhaps some resonant additions) into the opponent who delivered it -- just as you used the wall to reflect your own action back into you.

O Sensei spoke of aikido techniques "as preparation to unlock and soften all joints of our body." I take it this particular point is among the jumping off points of Ellis's examination of what he deems 'hidden in plain sight." Shear is very much like that that, too, though I am sure he likely approaches it in very different terms.

Every joint is a system of levers and counter-levers. But every joint can also simply disregard the levers, and also be treated as a flexible, twisty, shear connection. In every lever, shear is unavoidably present, and shear provokes mechanical movement, but not by the use of the leverage, and antithetical to the leverage.

As with the shear collapse of the pencils, with some play these can be arbitrarily directed in surprisingly complex (and graceful) ways with the characteristic form of a harmonogram or Lissajous figure. Once the essential form is grasped, it can be arbitrarily compressed -- depending on the degree of sensitivity of the practitioner.

Tell me if you do not see the essential trace of this dynamic:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery_data/526/lissajous_3.jpg

In this:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery_data/503/2294LiaSensei_Nick.jpg

or this:

http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery_data/503/medium/aikido9.jpg

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 12:28 PM
These things are skills and all interrelated (the ki skills). Together they form a coherent whole that is analogous to a "forest", for instance. Could you analyse each tree down to the xlyem and phloem and down to the molecules and atoms? Sure... but in that case you wouldn't be seeing the forest because of the trees. An apt analogy for your analyses, I think.
Only the forest matters if you are merely passing through -- but the trees matter if you are cutting them or planting them ...

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 12:39 PM
Erick,

Please consider making a youtube video of your shear explanation. If you could then show how that relates to tai no henka in the video it would be great but it'd appreciate just seeing a vid of the 2 pencil -contraption you described. I'm a noob at the net + video, but there's an opportunity for something new. We'll see if I can do that.

rob_liberti
07-28-2009, 12:52 PM
I have personally been thrown in that exact way by that exact person in the first "in this" picture, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that while totally aweome and fun, it is NOT the *IT* we are talking about.

Rob

dps
07-28-2009, 12:55 PM
These things are skills and all interrelated (the ki skills). Together they form a coherent whole that is analogous to a "forest", for instance. Could you analyse each tree down to the xlyem and phloem and down to the molecules and atoms? Sure... but in that case you wouldn't be seeing the forest because of the trees. An apt analogy for your analyses, I think.

fwiw

Mike Sigman

If you are looking at the trees you are seeing the forest.

"As the geometrical structure of all things found in nature, fractals are self-repeating, irregular shapes. From the largest scale down to the smallest, the same basic shape can be found at all levels of magnification. Examples of fractals in nature include snowflakes, forests and coastlines; even the human DNA is constructed on the basis of this awe-inspiring geometry."

http://fractalart.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=42

David

mathewjgano
07-28-2009, 01:27 PM
These things are skills and all interrelated (the ki skills). Together they form a coherent whole that is analogous to a "forest", for instance. Could you analyse each tree down to the xlyem and phloem and down to the molecules and atoms? Sure... but in that case you wouldn't be seeing the forest because of the trees. An apt analogy for your analyses, I think.

fwiw

Mike Sigman

I agree only if one simply stops at the analysis, but I get the impression Erick's analysis is intended to bounce back toward that synthesis of overarching understanding and application.
I'm guessing that describing "it" isn't required at all to learn how to perform it. With that in mind any general description might be deemed a distraction from the visceral lessons themselves (obviously guiding pointers and corrections help considerably). I think they can be useful and that different individuals will find insight in different models of explanation...that's my hunch, at any rate.

rob_liberti
07-28-2009, 01:44 PM
I agree only if one simply stops at the analysis, but I get the impression Erick's analysis is intended to bounce back toward that synthesis of overarching understanding and application.
I'm guessing that describing "it" isn't required at all to learn how to perform it. With that in mind any general description might be deemed a distraction from the visceral lessons themselves (obviously guiding pointers and corrections help considerably). I think they can be useful and that different individuals will find insight in different models of explanation...that's my hunch, at any rate.

This has been my issue with Erick's approach. To me, it only makes sense to go get first hand knowledge of what it is you are trying to analyze. Then he can be the objective source for describing what *IT* is that he is trying to reproduce by means of science... Before first hand experience, I just cannot see the point.

Rob

Lee Salzman
07-28-2009, 01:55 PM
This has been my issue with Erick's approach. To me, it only makes sense to go get first hand knowledge of what it is you are trying to analyze. Then he can be the objective source for describing what *IT* is that he is trying to reproduce by means of science... Before first hand experience, I just cannot see the point.

Rob

That would seem to open up a question. If you start from looking at just aikido as it is now, however incomplete one wants to posit it being, if you take those situations from your practice where aikido worked, and beyond your level of understanding to really explain given the mechanics of aikido that are currently practiced... Is the assumption that if one goes back and analyzes these experiences, formulates a guess about what is going on, then extrapolates a new way of practicing and performing aikido based on this, that no useful stuff could arise? Stopped clock, twice a day; sunshine, dog's bottom; etc.

I think that is a useful assumption to clarify for a conversation like this. It seems like there is a certain body of experience we are positing as what is missing, a priori, such that without it, you could not identify something missing. But are there other experiences that one might have within their aikido practice that could bring on a similar conclusion of something being awry?

Mary Eastland
07-28-2009, 01:58 PM
Hi Eric:
I don't see that in this. It looks like she is using a lot of muscle.
Mary

rob_liberti
07-28-2009, 02:18 PM
That would seem to open up a question. If you start from looking at just aikido as it is now, however incomplete one wants to posit it being, if you take those situations from your practice where aikido worked, and beyond your level of understanding to really explain given the mechanics of aikido that are currently practiced... Is the assumption that if one goes back and analyzes these experiences, formulates a guess about what is going on, then extrapolates a new way of practicing and performing aikido based on this, that no useful stuff could arise? Stopped clock, twice a day; sunshine, dog's bottom; etc.

I think that is a useful assumption to clarify for a conversation like this. It seems like there is a certain body of experience we are positing as what is missing, a priori, such that without it, you could not identify something missing. But are there other experiences that one might have within their aikido practice that could bring on a similar conclusion of something being awry?

Lee,

From my perspective, it continues to read that he is guessing about something he hasn't experienced. But maybe I'm missing the point.

Mary,

Which picture? And can you describe what about the picture looks to you like she is using a lot of muscle?

Rob

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-28-2009, 02:33 PM
Now the no-inch punch does the same thing inversely, where you "throw" all of that shear (representing all the momentum of your body), rolled out into the torsional extension to the two square inches of the fist. It is the same thing as cracking a whip. It is the same thing in momentum (actual movement) affecting the dynamic stability of the opponent (or punching bag) that was expressed as a static shift of stability moment (potential movement) when you reflected yourself off your support using the wall.

And that would basically be the situation with your punching bag. But as Shaun suggests, living opponents are much more interesting. When a punch is delivered with a certain pulse rhythm (about 10hz -- also called furitama) it just happens to be the at resonance frequency of the human body. We know this because when you do furitama it bounces you on and off your heels -- that is resonance occurring. These shear mechanics naturally tend to find resonant rhythms.

Erick,

While this is an interesting theory as to what is going on, I am not too sure it actually relates to what I myself have seen and experienced. Kokyu-no-ho should be able to be demonstrated from any point on the body except two specific areas. This includes any point on the skin. This should also be able to be demonstrated by a person who is lying completely prone, either on their back or stomach. Meaning that someone who has mastery of Kokyu-no-ho can throw you from that position if you are touching any point on their body. Well, at least they were able to thrown me that way. They were also able to throw me along with seven other people who had contact along each limb, trunk, neck top of head... etc. in eight different directions at the same time. They also did this held up against a wall in similar fashion while their feet were off the floor...

I would be interested to know if you are able to construct a model for that. I do not want to see it, read it, hear about it... however, I am interested in your thoughts on it as a possible contrast to the ones you have been describing.

Best in training to you and all...

.

dps
07-28-2009, 02:34 PM
From my perspective, it continues to read that he is guessing about something he hasn't experienced.

One of the reasons for this thread is for people to offer their definition ,by way of description if necessary, so that there can be a reasonable, objective discussion.

Can you define or describe what you think he is guessing at?

Thank You
David

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-28-2009, 02:34 PM
I have personally been thrown in that exact way by that exact person in the first "in this" picture, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that while totally aweome and fun, it is NOT the *IT* we are talking about.

Rob

Totally agreed - see my post, above....

jss
07-28-2009, 03:00 PM
Would it? I think we really need to go back and consider what is special about the "no-inch punch" (that term drives me insane, really, it does!) and what, if anything, makes it applicable as what is "missing" from aikido.
The no-inch punch is not necessarily missing from aikido, although it would help to make those standing joint-locks more of a threat.
But the reason I mentioned the no-inch punch is that for what I would call a good definition of 'IT', you need to be able to explain both aiki and the no-inch punch with it. Of course, if you want to argue that aiki and the no-inch punch are not related, it becomes a different story.

You've skipped all the skill and control required of those initial parts of just getting power to the target. It makes the concept of "short power" seem relatively mundane by comparison, no?
If you really think so, you should consider a career change and go teach all the boxers of the world this easier way of punching. I mean, it requires less skill, there's no telegraphing and you can punch harder from a clinch! ;)

Lee Salzman
07-28-2009, 03:20 PM
The no-inch punch is not necessarily missing from aikido, although it would help to make those standing joint-locks more of a threat.

Okay, but to what relevance? If we are solely going with power displayed over short distances, then certainly any movement, no less a joint lock, can be performed with more power by the very assumption that the practitioner, by definition, is more competent at exerting power over a short distance than he might be otherwise.

But... the ability to do this, the method to train to do this, or a particular explanation of how it is done (and there are many) does not necessarily mean "aiki".


But the reason I mentioned the no-inch punch is that for what I would call a good definition of 'IT', you need to be able to explain both aiki and the no-inch punch with it. Of course, if you want to argue that aiki and the no-inch punch are not related, it becomes a different story.


I am not arguing that they are not related, just that knowing how to display power does not imply that ones knows "aiki". The opposite is also possible: that training "aiki" might not necessarily produce the same range of skills in striking over short distances as other disciplines with different methodologies of doing this.

If you really think so, you should consider a career change and go teach all the boxers of the world this easier way of punching. I mean, it requires less skill, there's no telegraphing and you can punch harder from a clinch! ;)

The point is not that competently displaying power over short ranges requires less skill than the disconnected way people might naturally punch. It certainly requires more training to achieve. The point is, rather, that if you are going to hold it up as an ultimate example of an awesome level of power, that it really isn't that at all relative to what is actually trained within the idea of striking power.

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 03:52 PM
Hi Eric:
I don't see that in this. It looks like she is using a lot of muscle.
Mary So you think her muscle ( I will read "leveraged lift") took him off the ground ?? Oh, say about 160-180 lbs at arms length? I mean he could be taking a dive, but It doesn't much look that way.

And in answer to Rob: I have personally been thrown in that exact way by that exact person in the first "in this" picture, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that while totally aweome and fun, it is NOT the *IT* we are talking about. Well that is the problem with visual models isn't it. What struck me about that one was way his feet were carried up and out sideways. I could show you the two sticks and the motion -- but the sense of it would still not be shown, though some meager attempts as description of sensation might.

Why don't you try to describe what exactly about what she did to you actually made what is shown NOT "IT" in your terms.

To be clear, and so we are not doing any 'Alphonse/Gaston' routine -- if in the photo shown, she has "leaned into" that ikkyo (which is certainly possibly, but not necessarily, what is shown) or "pushed" out in a leveraged manner with the arm and shoulder, (which may also be possible from the photo) then I agree with you, at least on my terms that it is not "it" and involves no shear at all.

If on the other hand, she "sucked up" her base to enter under his cut (which the picture might allow did not happen) thus rising in contact with it and with an arm at fixed length and then extending (as I said before with the wall), then she sheared his cut upward (at the elbow) and sucked him off his feet and sideways doing it. Just like taking the refrigerator off the deck using the shear described earlier.

I have students do something similar against shinai and meeting the descending forward fist with the extended hand-- to teach the difference between blocking and connecting - the former gets you hit in the head, the latter gets you kuzushi on contact -- not usually so spectacularly --- but ....

rob_liberti
07-28-2009, 05:19 PM
Erick et al,

To me that experience was all about leading people out. There is a lot of wonderful lessons about the nature of fire and water, where the fire hand leads out, and them the water hand follows behind applying weight. She wasn't discussing that, but that was my impression of the nature of the drill at the time. However, it wasn't like my experience of aiki-age.

David,

Sorry bud but I'm not buying what you are selling. "One of the reasons for this thread is for people to offer their definition ,by way of description if necessary, so that there can be a reasonable, objective discussion." I think that is what people constructively made out of it. I was actually shocked when you played what I will call your "shihan trump card" AS IF ALL of the people who are describing what they are finding outside of aikido to apply directly TO aikido all failed to do their due diligence. Then when things didn't go where you seemed to expect, you started another thread about: "What did O'Sensei's students want from him? A spiritual message or a martial ability?" Maybe I want to develop martial ability like the founder to help me develop my spiritual understanding - you know, like how the founder did it...
(Also, I did my best to describe how I determine who has IT - 2 times in this very thread.)

Rob

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 05:21 PM
Erick,

While this is an interesting theory as to what is going on, I am not too sure it actually relates to what I myself have seen and experienced. Kokyu-no-ho should be able to be demonstrated from any point on the body except two specific areas. This includes any point on the skin. There is nothing says the examples given are exclusive, nor limited to the upper limbs or any limbs for that matter.

This should also be able to be demonstrated by a person who is lying completely prone, either on their back or stomach. Meaning that someone who has mastery of Kokyu-no-ho can throw you from that position if you are touching any point on their body. Well, at least they were able to thrown me that way. I would not claim to do so from "any point of contact" on my body, but whatever part I happen to have connection with at the time of a throw I more often than not find something useful to do with it. :D It's funny you should say that about throwing from the ground -- several of our students "cordially dislike" for me to uke for them. They know to a man (or woman, Stan!) that if they have the slightest opening in the throw or lose zanshin in its completion, then I will usually take them as or after they "throw" me to the ground (maybe or maybe not throw them, depending on whether they have recognized their peril). One student threw me, and as he finished he said, "Ohhhh, You're gonna throw me ..!!!. I said, "Nope, because you finally realized I could." (N.B. -- We don't routinely throw in (the many) henka waza opportunities often presented, except at the "end" of the technique, so as to keep the isolated scheme of the presented waza intact for its intended learning purpose.)

They were also able to throw me along with seven other people who had contact along each limb, trunk, neck top of head... etc. in eight different directions at the same time. They also did this held up against a wall in similar fashion while their feet were off the floor... That I do understand mechanically -- though we do not play with or practice such tricks -- The wall or the floor doesn't really matter. Held in mid-air doesn't really matter, just like pumping a swing, only somewhat easier because the "swing" is inverted, in compression, and thus very easily buckled by a shear. I have seen the video of those demos where the guy knocks down all those holding him bodily aloft.
It doesn't matter how many dominoes support a board -- two or a hundred -- they will all rack over in shear if you apply a shear (which is the same basic set up as the "jo trick," FWIW, only re-oriented)

That is unmistakeably the use of progressive or pulsed shear, like a whirlpool sucking all the water around and down - or water peeled off pavement by a wheel - or a wave sucking water off the beach and then crashing back. It can be a progressive spiral, in or out, or a pulsed wave, or a resonant spike of furitama or atemi in the same rhythm -- they are all mechanically equivalent as the shear goes -- though to different effect and perception.

I would be interested to know if you are able to construct a model for that. I think I just did. ;)

mathewjgano
07-28-2009, 05:21 PM
This has been my issue with Erick's approach. To me, it only makes sense to go get first hand knowledge of what it is you are trying to analyze. Then he can be the objective source for describing what *IT* is that he is trying to reproduce by means of science... Before first hand experience, I just cannot see the point.

Rob

Assuming for the moment that he doesn't know much about what he's talking about, I can still see how thinking about how it might work in his own terms might still be somewhat useful to him. It might also simply be a fun thing for him to do. I know I personally enjoy attempting to articulate some of these things we do and I have barely any understanding at all...if I have any. I'm assuming at the worst he has very rudamentary understanding of some set of internal skills, but still that's something to work with.
My thinking is that it's one thing to say someone hasn't developed the ability to use many of these skills, but it's different to say the description isn't accurate. If it isn't accurate, shouldn't one with true understanding be able to describe how it falls short? Mike's point about mechanical language being able to describe any kind of movement is a good one, but that still doesn't mean it's necessarily meaningless. Ki is often described as meaningless because it can be a catchall term, but it still can have its usefulness.
I guess it just seems to me that if I assume Erick has any understanding, he has a place to begin basing his descriptions. It may be incomplete or have some areas where it doesn't lend itself well, but if the mechanical terminology fits (and I don't see how it couldn't) and he's using it correctly, I don't get the gripe. I would think that would be the point at which people with more understanding of "it" might be able to sharpen the resolution, using his terms to teach him a better concept. I have no idea how good at "it" he is...or even necessarily what "it" is, outside of what's practiced at my dojo...slight though my experience there is too.
I would agree that if Erick wants to be certain of describing what is done by Dan and Mike, etc., the best thing to do is to experience it to some significant degree. Still, to my mind, unless there are false claims, in the realm of words, actual skill in production is almost meaningless. If Dan and Mike's terminology is accurate, and I parrot them to describe what's describable, my ability still has nothing to do with speaking correctly. Sure you can question if I can walk the talk, but in this forum where describing "it" is concerned, what ultimately matters is if I can talk the talk.
Is it practical to the learning itself? I couldn't say. I suspect it can help at least a little though. It could probably hurt too: it's all in how it's applied...just as Mike pointed out that knowing one or two "tricks" can keep a person from realizing a grander potential because they think those are it when in reality they're just the tip of the iceberg.
I hope that was cogent...I've been back and forth between the baby and the pc so it might be a little all over the road; if it is, sorry for that.
Take care,
Matt

dps
07-28-2009, 05:39 PM
David,

Sorry bud but I'm not buying what you are selling. "One of the reasons for this thread is for people to offer their definition ,by way of description if necessary, so that there can be a reasonable, objective discussion." I think that is what people constructively made out of it. I was actually shocked when you played what I will call your "shihan trump card" AS IF ALL of the people who are describing what they are finding outside of aikido to apply directly TO aikido all failed to do their due diligence. Then when things didn't go where you seemed to expect, you started another thread about: "What did O'Sensei's students want from him? A spiritual message or a martial ability?"

Actually the "What did O'Sensei's students want from him? A spiritual message or a martial ability?" thread was started 07-12-2009, 04:23 PM.
This thread was started 07-20-2009, 07:00 AM.
One thread had nothing to do with the other.

David

rob_liberti
07-28-2009, 10:01 PM
Well David, I certainly got the sequence wrong. I stand corrected on that for sure and I apologize. Both threads seem to have a common theme of something like "is there an IT that aikido is missing at all?" - with a hint of "is complacency in terms of developing aiki justified?" But maybe I got that wrong too. I can say that Dan posts some compelling things about aiki. I posted a list of skills I found valuable that no one in aikido is claiming (to my knowledge) except maybe O-sensei and a few of his early deshi.

So the original post was do the other braches of aikido also feel that something is missing like the aikikai. It presupposes that the aikikia feels that something is missing and I doubt the vast majority of the aikikai or of any other aikido branch feel that way. But this thread was a good place to discuss what the buzz about IT is. Everyone posting here loves aikido. Some love what it has been to them, others love what it had been and want it to be again. So with all this passion, there is going to be some rough waters.

Matthew, "If it isn't accurate, shouldn't one with true understanding be able to describe how it falls short?" It has to be felt is what everyone with true understanding (demonstrate-able skils) continues to say thus far.

I think Erick describes the shear of that cool shoto-ikkyo just fine. I just know that is not aiki-age. The technique in that picture is remarkably more external.

With Ericks approach, I can try to make an analogy. It seems like someone who has never seen a Mac is trying to describe a PC at the chip and operating system design level and asking me to explain the differences at that level. I don't know every detail of how my computer works, but I can use it well enough. I don't think knowing the differences on that level would help all that much. Maybe it is not a perfect analogy. But in general, I think such an approach belongs in a different thread so it does not lead the people interested in IT astray. There is little hope of re-engineering IT from the position of doubtfully ever having felt/experienced it.

Rob

mathewjgano
07-28-2009, 11:46 PM
Both threads seem to have a common theme of something like "is there an IT that aikido is missing at all?" - with a hint of "is complacency in terms of developing aiki justified?" But maybe I got that wrong too.
Hi Rob,
I think you're right. I'm pretty sure the issue of whether or not Aikido is missing something is a central theme to both threads, and in my opinion at least, the complacency issue is a natural caveat to that. My hunch is that this thing "aiki" exists within a gradient and that Aikido proper probably has some form of it. It might be mostly missing "it" but my hunch is that there are pockets found in various places at the least, so the blanket statements don't seem quite right to me.

I can say that Dan posts some compelling things about aiki. I posted a list of skills I found valuable that no one in aikido is claiming (to my knowledge) except maybe O-sensei and a few of his early deshi.
I agree! As a closet iconoclast I get a little extra pleasure from what folks like Dan have stirred up. They've sparked a furious debate and as long as people are actively engaged to that debate and remain dedicated to unraveling the virtues of the issues brought forth, I think it's only a good thing; to the absolute betterment of Aikido...whatever that may be. I also think those are good guideposts you provided for moving with what I think I understand aiki to be. Can I peform that way very well? No. Do I do that at all? I think sometimes I do. Am I missing "It"? I'm certainly missing a very big part no matter how you look at it, but I'm pretty sure I'm not operating at 0. Time will tell.

So the original post was do the other braches of aikido also feel that something is missing like the aikikai. It presupposes that the aikikia feels that something is missing and I doubt the vast majority of the aikikai or of any other aikido branch feel that way. But this thread was a good place to discuss what the buzz about IT is.
Everyone posting here loves aikido. Some love what it has been to them, others love what it had been and want it to be again. So with all this passion, there is going to be some rough waters.
Well said! I'm not sure about the intent from David, but it seemed like a good title for drawing that passion. The seemingly absolute nature of it certainly drew my usual response. I love these threads when they're full of people who seem to be on to something and this one has been an interesting read for me so far (I'm a little behind on a lot of it). I'm greatful it's sparked the discussion it has.

Matthew, "If it isn't accurate, shouldn't one with true understanding be able to describe how it falls short?" It has to be felt is what everyone with true understanding (demonstrate-able skils) continues to say thus far.
And yet we talk about "It," to some extent...beyond the idea that it exists in very specific locations/schools to go experience. I would agree completely that learning how to do aiki is a visceral thing, not an abstract thing, but it does seem that there are ways to describe behavioral aspects of that visceral thing aiki. Learning the science behind flight doesn't teach you how to fly stick and rudder, but it does contribute an understanding about basics like airspeed relationships and lift, which can shape how you approach flying.

I just know that is not aiki-age.
I forget exactly what aiki-age means, but if you can see that it is not aiki-age just by looking at it, shouldn't you be able to describe the features you're looking at to be able to tell the difference? Is the posture not vertical enough? Shoulders too raised? Center oriented in some direction it shouldn't be? How can you tell? What are the hallmarks of aiki-age which are lacking there?

With Ericks approach, I can try to make an analogy...
It may well be apples and oranges and not Fujis and Braeburns, for all I know.

dps
07-28-2009, 11:47 PM
The first thread, "What did O'Sensei's students want from O'Sensei?", was started after reading a bio of Yamada Sensei and his reason for starting Aikido.
http://www.aikido-yamada.eu/yamada_sensei.html
I was thinking of my own reasons and it seemed that most people today taking Aikido was doing so in part because of the religious/spiritual/philosophical aspect of Aikido.
So I was wandering why the students of O'Sensei came to him.

" Is It Missing In Everybody's Aikido?" thread was started after reading on internet posts from people inside and outside of Aikido that somethings were missing or not taught correctly in todays Aikido.
The basics I was taught some 20 years ago when I first started Aikido included what is shown on this website,http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/ and in this video http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=mike+sigman&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#. different words but the same thing.
Then I read that there were approaching 1.5 million people under the Aikikai umbrella practicing Aikido.

Hence the thought is the things these people are saying are missing or not taught (IT) missing in over 1.5 million ( this includes those outside of Aikikai) people's Aikido.

David

Erick Mead
07-28-2009, 11:47 PM
Matthew, "If it isn't accurate, shouldn't one with true understanding be able to describe how it falls short?" It has to be felt is what everyone with true understanding (demonstrate-able skils) continues to say thus far. Unfortunately, my haptic interface is down the shop just now.

I think Erick describes the shear of that cool shoto-ikkyo just fine. I just know that is not aiki-age. The technique in that picture is remarkably more external. I very specifically did not try to define it as aiki age, and chose that one particularly because the weapons use made it interesting and therefore it was not necessarily wedded to either paradigm. I suspect you would not define the no-inch punch as aiki age either, but I woudl suspect they are also related in your eyes.

Also, I tend to agree with Lee that while related -- there is a difference in "it" in so far as shear plays a part, and aiki proper -- which it seems all agree is a property of living beings. I have made several side points that distinguish certain neuro-muscular aspects of what I see Aiki -- aside from the purely mechanical components -- but which also relate to shear and elements driven by or responsive to it.

Since aiki-age is your term, it needs defining (in these or your own terms). But please, try to describe it or what is different between those two things you have felt, now that you have some inkling of the nature of my description.

I am fully aware, as in my consideration of Ki as angular momentum/moment (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/physical-theory-of-aiki-a-dialogue-3404/), that the preferred modes of thought in two cultural systems are often seen as intractably different -- even when there are common or closer to common categories in both systems of thought, that are just not as favored. I am content that the category "shear" need not fully map in any unitary way with categories of traditional use for either "it" or "Aiki" to the extent there is a difference -- but very plainly to me anyway they are all related to or touched upon by uses of shear.

With Ericks approach, I can try to make an analogy. It seems like someone who has never seen a Mac is trying to describe a PC at the chip and operating system design level and asking me to explain the differences at that level. Oh, God. A Mac v. PC commercial with the guys in dogi and hakama. I can see it now -- John Hodgman trying to tie his himo with the koshita dragging the ground... and Mac already in full bogu and at seigan :D

There is little hope of re-engineering IT from the position of doubtfully ever having felt/experienced it. Let me be clear, I am an intuitive thinker -- I need experience from which to intuit patterns. All the book-larnin' is just patterns to sift, digest, combine, and seek out in that experience. Any pattern I lay out here you may be sure is based on workable experience, or I would not lay it out, as it would not make sense to me from pure book-larnin'. That does not answer your question, but there you are.

As for your doubt -- Credo ut intelligam...intellego ut credam. "I believe, so I may understand -- I think, so I may believe."

Erick Mead
07-29-2009, 12:03 AM
Learning the science behind flight doesn't teach you how to fly stick and rudder, but it does contribute an understanding about basics like airspeed relationships and lift, which can shape how you approach flying. Being a pilot, there are things that killed many a stick-and-rudder/seat-pants pilot until the aero guys went and said -- "Hey, ya know, I know it will really feel wrong, but try putting the stick hard back and the rudder hard opposite the turn needle, and forget what you are feeling, and maybe that inverted progressive spin is recoverable after all." Recovery control inputs are often quite different from aircraft to aircraft. Things like vortex ring state were only worked out after some bad helo crashes.

jss
07-29-2009, 01:39 AM
I am not arguing that they are not related, just that knowing how to display power does not imply that ones knows "aiki". The opposite is also possible: that training "aiki" might not necessarily produce the same range of skills in striking over short distances as other disciplines with different methodologies of doing this.
Agreed. They are based on the same skill set, but if you do not build upon the basic skill set (be it towards aiki or short power), you won't have the additional skills.

The point is, rather, that if you are going to hold it up as an ultimate example of an awesome level of power, that it really isn't that at all relative to what is actually trained within the idea of striking power.
But I didn't hold it up as an ultimate example of an awesome level of power! (Although I do think that short power is pretty cool.)
Erick said that the power (of 'it' or from aiki, I don't know) came from structural collapse caused by shear, which lead me to ask if he thought that the power of a no-inch punch was caused by structural collapse and shear as well. Even if the no-inch punch would be the wimpiest punch on earth with which you couldn't even hit a dent in a pack of butter after leaving it out in the sun on a hot summer day, my question would still be valid.

Max Hoskins
07-29-2009, 03:47 AM
these are some excellent posts. i must return to that thread, "list of reason why people joined aikido". should be interesting to re-read those posts.

MM
07-29-2009, 06:47 AM
I agree! As a closet iconoclast I get a little extra pleasure from what folks like Dan have stirred up. They've sparked a furious debate and as long as people are actively engaged to that debate and remain dedicated to unraveling the virtues of the issues brought forth, I think it's only a good thing; to the absolute betterment of Aikido...whatever that may be. I also think those are good guideposts you provided for moving with what I think I understand aiki to be. Can I peform that way very well? No. Do I do that at all? I think sometimes I do. Am I missing "It"? I'm certainly missing a very big part no matter how you look at it, but I'm pretty sure I'm not operating at 0. Time will tell.


Well, I actually have two very good questions for you to ask people. :)

1. Before you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

2. After you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

And I'd bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #1 was in the positive somewhere between 1 and 10. And I'd also bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #2 is 0.

But, that's why I posted the questions for you to ask. There are any number of Aikido people from first to sixth dan to ask. But, consider this, what are you going to think of *your* level of aiki in aikido if you ask, let's say 5 fourth dans, a couple fifth dans and a sixth dan and they all answer 0 to the second question?


And yet we talk about "It," to some extent...beyond the idea that it exists in very specific locations/schools to go experience. I would agree completely that learning how to do aiki is a visceral thing, not an abstract thing, but it does seem that there are ways to describe behavioral aspects of that visceral thing aiki. Learning the science behind flight doesn't teach you how to fly stick and rudder, but it does contribute an understanding about basics like airspeed relationships and lift, which can shape how you approach flying.



If you read through the posts here at Aikiweb, Rob John, Mike Sigman, and Dan Harden have all posted descriptions, exercises, tell-tale signs, etc. Yet, that hasn't helped anyone actually *do* aiki.

People think that the correlation between mechanical or physics aspects translate over into internal aspects, but they don't.

For example, the most advanced robotics design currently being used in Japan is not based upon human movement at all, but upon sensors and what-if scenarios. The physics behind even the most basic movements that humans do can't be detailed at our current understanding. You can talk about shear, friction, load, the air speed of an unladen swallow, but IMO, all that will do is set you back in learning aiki.

Anyone here with a Ph.D. in Physics want to post the equations for when a human goes from a walk cycle to a run cycle? Ain't gonna happen because no one out there can do that yet. Why do you think the major animation studios use motion capture instead of software based programming? The former is more realistic and the latter takes huge amounts of time to make realistic, bypassing physics altogether.

jss
07-29-2009, 07:23 AM
But, consider this, what are you going to think of *your* level of aiki in aikido if you ask, let's say 5 fourth dans, a couple fifth dans and a sixth dan and they all answer 0 to the second question?
That question makes me wonder about another question:
How do these same high dan grades feel when they teach an aikido class? Shouldn't they just take off their hakama's, change their black belts for white ones and go sit with the mukyu's? (After which the then highest grade seeks out the hands-on aiki experience and joins the mukyu's. Rinse and repeat, untill only mukyu's are left...:D )

rob_liberti
07-29-2009, 07:51 AM
I forget exactly what aiki-age means, but if you can see that it is not aiki-age just by looking at it, shouldn't you be able to describe the features you're looking at to be able to tell the difference? Is the posture not vertical enough? Shoulders too raised? Center oriented in some direction it shouldn't be? How can you tell? What are the hallmarks of aiki-age which are lacking there?

I didn't say I could just by looking at it. I said that I had a unique perspective to that because I have FELT that specific technique done in that exact way by that exact person (and I should add that it was right around the time that person was doing that technique a lot).

I know what aiki-age feels like in me. It feels like I'm being lifted upward - but not like I was lead upward as shown in that awesome technique with the shotos. Aik-age feels like you touch the person, and you instantly feel sensation running upward in your body. Often, my ears feel that they are being pulled/pushed up - maybe I should say they feel like they are going upward because it doesn't feel like a pull or a push. I can't describe it very well. I don't think anyone can. Inside my neck something(s) feel like they are going upward, and yet it feels like everything is rising up, so it's like I end up feeling stretched upward from inside out. Maybe it is somewhat like a hose suddenly filling up with high pressure water. Oh great, you guys have me attempting to become an aiki-poet. [insert the "slapping the forehead" emoticon].

The thing is, that if my friend Lia in that picture had been doing aiki-age when she did that technique to me, it would look from the outside the same (but you might see my neck or wherever there was some slack in my body kind of jerk the moment I came into contact - but that just depends on how well the uke is holding themselves together doesn't it).

Erick, I think you have the shearing ideas just fine. I think you would need to understand how that works MUCH MUCH MUCH more internally - and thus far no one else can. Good luck to you with your approach but I wish you made a wholly different thread/blog where you explored this where the title represents the idea that you have not actually done or felt the IT we are discussing yet. But, that's not anything against you or your thinking. I enjoy reading your thought process. I just don't think it is too helpful to others until you start producing some/any of the things I attempted to describe.

Rob

MM
07-29-2009, 07:55 AM
That question makes me wonder about another question:
How do these same high dan grades feel when they teach an aikido class? Shouldn't they just take off their hakama's, change their black belts for white ones and go sit with the mukyu's? (After which the then highest grade seeks out the hands-on aiki experience and joins the mukyu's. Rinse and repeat, untill only mukyu's are left...:D )

Why? As we've stated, just because someone is learning aiki -- that doesn't invalidate their whole of Aikido. They still have the training, the experience, the history, the knowledge of a whole range of things in the aikido world.

On the flip side, though, it is a very noble individual that has a high rank in Aikido, go somewhere else to train, and wear a white belt. I'm told that Ikeda did just that at one of Aiki Expos. I know of another high ranking Aikido person who has done something similar. That's class. :)

Lee Salzman
07-29-2009, 08:17 AM
Agreed. They are based on the same skill set, but if you do not build upon the basic skill set (be it towards aiki or short power), you won't have the additional skills.


However, the basic skill set there can differ. With respect to displaying short range power, explosiveness of movement is a separate quality from unity (gross coordination) of movement. They have to be trained as distinctly separate qualities. Explosiveness in this case is the ability to take yourself from 0 to 100 and back to 0 again as quickly as possible, and you just literally have to practice this over and over and over and over until you are good at it. In that sense, it is not that profound a practice, but without the practice, if you have developed any skill in explosiveness, it is by accident.

There is no wind-up or otherwise prepatory movement because of precisely this; you are able to competently engage the muscular system at a given point rather than having to move it into a more 'optimal' position first. Just practicing coordinated movement based on whatever structural mechanics you want won't necessarily yield the same result, though. You can even get explosiveness of movement without the overall good coordination, by just reinforcing whatever existing coordination is already there. So you might indeed end up with a very explosive strike that is none the less not powerful enough to dent a pack of butter too, or you might end up with a very forceful strike but which none the less is neither quick enough to dent the butter but merely move it out of the way like an advancing glacier. :)

There is also the other sense of this that you are momentarily structurally sturdy, and something has impacted you instead. That something might bounce off, but it could be for different reasons. You could have just been always structurally on in the first place, in which case no explosiveness was necessary. Or you could have merely solidified only at the moment of impact, which hinges on developed explosiveness.

thisisnotreal
07-29-2009, 08:19 AM
Hi Rob,
Very interesting. Your descriptions were cool. Can I ask about it?

Maybe it is somewhat like a hose suddenly filling up with high pressure water.

Do you think that big part of the aiki is literally a pressure manipulation in the body's hydraulic system (i.e. liquid pressure in muscles & tissues)? (I assume that ground path is the major conduit of force, driven by hara). How can nage protect (hide?) his own hara even while simultaneously driving the motion from there?


.. if my friend Lia in that picture had been doing aiki-age when she did that technique to me, it would look from the outside the same (but you might see my neck or wherever there was some slack in my body kind of jerk the moment I came into contact - but that just depends on how well the uke is holding themselves together doesn't it)


I always wondered, can aiki techniques (e.g. aiki-age) be done *extremely slowly* or is there an element of speed/timing that *must* be present? Assuming they can be executed slowly, are they then easier to counter, or do you find it is still 'immutable' or 'inexorable'? Do you still get the 'my ears are going up' feeling? Can you actually feel the pressure rising in the body? Or is that manifested differently? Do you find there is an ability (or way) to 'push back' against that rising feeling? Man! Sounds like ihtbf. ;)

All of the above questions/views assume a lot, of course, and may be wrong..and hence unanswerable..

Cheers,
Josh

jss
07-29-2009, 08:19 AM
Why? As we've stated, just because someone is learning aiki -- that doesn't invalidate their whole of Aikido. They still have the training, the experience, the history, the knowledge of a whole range of things in the aikido world.
Yet in this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235386&postcount=28) you state:
If you're studying one of those systems, you need that history. You need the techniques and how they were done because that's part of the founder's ideals. The aiki puts the foundation there so that the understanding of the intricacies of the techniques makes a lot more sense.
<snip>
Ueshiba's aikido wasn't just aiki. People overlook this part of the message we've been stating because aiki is the foundation. Ueshiba built his house upon aiki. So did Sagawa, Kodo, Tomiki, Shioda, etc. They all look different for a reason.
So you don't see a problem with people teaching aikido, but lacking the actual foundation of aikido, i.e. aiki?
How many of these high dan grades tell their students: I can teach you about the house, but I recently found out I had the foundation all wrong. So while I lay my own foundation and move my entire house, I can teach you a lot about the house, very little about the foundation and even less about how the new foundation and the old house work together?
If they do so, they would be honest and I wouldn't mind. If they don't, they claim to teach something they are not. Unless one wants to argue that the actual internal skills of aikido are so unknown to the public, no new student is expecting to learn these skills.;)

jss
07-29-2009, 08:45 AM
However, the basic skill set there can differ.
No, it cannot. I define the basic skill set (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235562&postcount=178) as:
To make the most use as possible of the ground (to push from) or your own weight (to weigh something down). [...] Then you can start rewiring your body (coordination and conditioning), which is another reason you can't figure this out for yourself.
Both aiki and the no-inch punch require specific recoordination and conditioning based on that basic skill of ground an weight usage.

rob_liberti
07-29-2009, 08:56 AM
"How many of these high dan grades tell their students: I can teach you about the house, but I recently found out I had the foundation all wrong." - at least 1 of them

Ron Tisdale
07-29-2009, 09:16 AM
I like Rob, have trained with Lia Sensei, and can say that

A) She don't have a lot of muscle to start with...she's kind of tiny... ;)

B) Proportionately (taking into account her smaller size) the uke she tends to work with are much larger and stronger, so muscle just ain't gonna cut it... :eek:

C) it does not feel like strength when I take ukemi for her.

That said, I tend to agree with Rob, this is not the oldsmobile I experienced from Dan, Akuzawa and Mike...

A) Their power was noticably greater (even taking into account their greater size),

B) could be applied statically or in motion, and

C) "Leading" really didn't have a whole lot to do with what they did. At least not the "Leading" I am familiar with in aikido.

Though I must say I do believe that the best of the "Leading" I have found in aikido would most likely be greatly enhanced by adding the level of power Dan, Mike, and Akuzawa display.

In My Opinion and Experience, of course.

Best,
Ron
Hi Eric:
I don't see that in this. It looks like she is using a lot of muscle.
Mary

MM
07-29-2009, 09:20 AM
Yet in this post (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235386&postcount=28) you state:

So you don't see a problem with people teaching aikido, but lacking the actual foundation of aikido, i.e. aiki?


Actually, I have a great admiration for those people still teaching aikido *and* learning aiki. They are finding ways to do something I could not. The same for those who are looking to learn aiki and still teach aikido. I sincerely hope that they find a similar path to take. How can anyone fault them for that? It certainly isn't the easiest thing to do.

You're going to find that students with a year's worth of learning internal structure are stopping most wrist locks. How do you handle that? And that's just the tip of things.

No, I don't see a problem with these people doing what they are doing. In fact, I think others should see them with respect and admiration for the task they've shouldered. They're the ones with the vision and the eye towards the future of aikido, making it, again, on par - martially - with Ueshiba, Tomiki, Shioda, Shirata, Mochizuki, Tohei, etc.

MM
07-29-2009, 09:35 AM
No, it cannot. I define the basic skill set (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=235562&postcount=178) as:

"To make the most use as possible of the ground (to push from) or your own weight (to weigh something down)."


In one sense, I can agree to this. It is a basic skill set. I'd disagree that it is aiki, though.

I think that if you learn to relax and not use specific muscle groups, you can learn a basic way of "grounding". I think that quite a few people in various martial arts can do this. It's a one way flow, either to the ground or from the ground.

I think when people talk about how good BJJ people are doing "internal" stuff, I think they're mistaking basic "ground" skills with aiki.

If all you are doing is letting energy go to ground, then you've only got 1/3, er, 1/4, okay a portion of the whole. And it's easy enough to start people working on that. Unbendable arm? Think of a water hose with water going outwards. That's a one way conduit. Does it work? Sure. Is it aiki? Not in my opinion.

Is it a basic skill set. Okay, sure. I can agree on that.

But, let's expand it just a bit. For example, use the unbendable arm thingy above. Now, let's have a two way conduit through the body/arm where there is water going outwards and at the same time, through that same pipe, there is water coming back inwards. That's a basic skill set, to me. Still not aiki, though. :)

My thoughts on the subject, anyway.

thisisnotreal
07-29-2009, 10:17 AM
making a list of things that are on the way to aiki, but *not* aiki, is a useful start...i think.
for instance, all, umm.. impediments (http://www.shenwu.com/trubal.htm) must be removed. "Got to get out of your own way.."
much to that thought alone, isn't there?

One problem with aiki is that it is a combination of many factors that must be present, and then couple that (unlikely scenario) with the fact that you really need the proprietary knowledge/skill...

also; I just want to say that this is just budo. It isn't anything else than that. It is important. But it is also not important, at the same time. Some could view all of this, at some all-consuming point, as selfish and self-indulgent..
just a thought.
m2c

jss
07-29-2009, 10:37 AM
No, I don't see a problem with these people doing what they are doing. In fact, I think others should see them with respect and admiration for the task they've shouldered.
As long as they are not misleading their students as to what they are getting into, I totally agree. Especially considering that the alternative would be that all the aiki-seeking aikido teachers would quit for a few years and then return to aikido. That scenario would be a lot worse.

jss
07-29-2009, 10:40 AM
In one sense, I can agree to this. It is a basic skill set. I'd disagree that it is aiki, though.
I never said it was aiki, so that's ok.:p

But, let's expand it just a bit. For example, use the unbendable arm thingy above. Now, let's have a two way conduit through the body/arm where there is water going outwards and at the same time, through that same pipe, there is water coming back inwards. That's a basic skill set, to me. Still not aiki, though. :)
Sounds interesting. If you do the unbendable arm with me in this way, would I be able to feel the difference? And if so, what would be different?

phitruong
07-29-2009, 11:11 AM
Well, I actually have two very good questions for you to ask people. :)

1. Before you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

2. After you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?



answers:
#1. 2
#2. -2 (can i use imaginary number?)

before i met these internal folks, i was doing the Do just fine. after meetings, now i have to actually learn to do the aiki part, which is just work work and more work. i really don't like these internal folks, because they just mess with your universe. :p

phitruong
07-29-2009, 11:15 AM
But, let's expand it just a bit. For example, use the unbendable arm thingy above. Now, let's have a two way conduit through the body/arm where there is water going outwards and at the same time, through that same pipe, there is water coming back inwards. That's a basic skill set, to me. Still not aiki, though. :)

.

what about the water going up the other person's feet? :D

mathewjgano
07-29-2009, 11:20 AM
Well, I actually have two very good questions for you to ask people. :)

1. Before you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

2. After you experienced hands-on aiki, what level did you think you were operating at?

And I'd bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #1 was in the positive somewhere between 1 and 10. And I'd also bet that every single Aikido person who met Dan would say their answer to #2 is 0.
You may be right for all I know. I get the impression that Dan is very very good and that can make very slight ability seem like nothing at all...and again, for all I know, it would be literally 0, but that is absolutely nothing, not .00000000001, which may simply seems like nothing by comparison (but might seem like something next to .00000000000000001).

If you read through the posts here at Aikiweb, Rob John, Mike Sigman, and Dan Harden have all posted descriptions, exercises, tell-tale signs, etc. Yet, that hasn't helped anyone actually *do* aiki.
I agree. Ideas will never ingrain physical ability, they can only guide our approach to it.

People think that the correlation between mechanical or physics aspects translate over into internal aspects, but they don't.
I'm just saying any physical phenomena can be described and that "mechanical" terms (I hope that's an appropriate word now that I've used it) are one approach at this.

For example, the most advanced robotics design currently being used in Japan is not based upon human movement at all, but upon sensors and what-if scenarios. The physics behind even the most basic movements that humans do can't be detailed at our current understanding.
There are a lot of variables if someone wanted to try to form a complete formula, but that doesn't mean we can't describe aspects accurately. Draw out a complete formula for how a car works and that will take some time too. It will include a lot of information that is useless to someone wanting to build a car, but some of it might prove useful...such as figuring how volume applies to compression in the engine...assuming that person also understood the language.


You can talk about shear, friction, load, the air speed of an unladen swallow, but IMO, all that will do is set you back in learning aiki.
Well that all depends...is it an African swallow or an English one? Answer wisely!:D Seriously though, you may be right, but I suspect it depends on the individual. I'm not saying some possible mathematic formula will cause anyone any direct ability in performing aiki. I'm just saying that I can see how trying to articulate what might be happening in the body could be useful for some people in their approach. In terms of time spent I would be inclined to think any time not spent actually practicing aiki can be described as holding a person back.

Anyone here with a Ph.D. in Physics want to post the equations for when a human goes from a walk cycle to a run cycle? Ain't gonna happen because no one out there can do that yet. Why do you think the major animation studios use motion capture instead of software based programming? The former is more realistic and the latter takes huge amounts of time to make realistic, bypassing physics altogether.

Well and a lot of the motion capture wasn't very realistic. I've played many games and the best Virtua Fighter still doesn't look like human movement, strictly speaking. The point is, if we can describe aspects of aiki (not the whole) using relatively vague concepts like ki and floating, we should be able to describe it using other imperfect terms too.

Walker
07-29-2009, 11:34 AM
As long as they are not misleading their students as to what they are getting into, I totally agree. Especially considering that the alternative would be that all the aiki-seeking aikido teachers would quit for a few years and then return to aikido. That scenario would be a lot worse.

If you didn't think aikido teachers were'nt already changing day by day working to improve their aikido while they were teaching you I wonder just what you thought was happening??? If they now appreciate an new aspect of their art, so much the better.

Is it really that unheard of to attain new understanding and suddenly everything needs to be looked at in a whole new light. Like, you know, a certain Mr. U who after being bathed in golden light said everything had changed.

I guess I just never had the idea of a teacher or a sensei as a completed product to be consumed. I always expected new insight and evolution in those I trained with; even about the most basic things.

MM
07-29-2009, 11:36 AM
Sounds interesting. If you do the unbendable arm with me in this way, would I be able to feel the difference? And if so, what would be different?

I would think so for the former. I dunno, for the latter. :) Maybe one of these days we'll be able to try it in person and you can explain what the differences were like.

If I have to give an example of some difference, though ... I'd have to say that if you only use a one-way conduit example, you're going to have a rough time getting center on contact. If you learn to use the two-way conduit example, I think you'll have an easier time getting center on contact. Not that either of those, by themselves, will give you center on contact.

what about the water going up the other person's feet? :D

Shhhhh! That's the secret, inner teachings! Just don't mention water going up the nose technique. Or the waterfall technique of water falling down all around you then out and up all around you. Hush hush stuff. :D

You may be right for all I know. I get the impression that Dan is very very good and that can make very slight ability seem like nothing at all...and again, for all I know, it would be literally 0, but that is absolutely nothing, not .00000000001, which may simply seems like nothing by comparison (but might seem like something next to .00000000000000001).


Well, as you've seen Phi's response, it was a -2. I'd echo his response, too. :)

Ron Tisdale
07-29-2009, 11:57 AM
The point is, if we can describe aspects of aiki (not the whole) using relatively vague concepts like ki and floating, we should be able to describe it using other imperfect terms too.

Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron

jss
07-29-2009, 12:09 PM
If you didn't think aikido teachers were'nt already changing day by day working to improve their aikido while they were teaching you I wonder just what you thought was happening??? If they now appreciate an new aspect of their art, so much the better.
If these skills are really fundamental, it would be the same as taking dancing lessons and after some time (months? years?) having your teacher exclaim: "You know what, I just found out this great thing: we're supposed to do this to music!"
On the other hand, a teacher should seek to improve his skills and if he finds out he is missing some fundamental aspect, the best he can do is probably just tell his students and learn this new thing as fast as he can. Not telling them is not really an option.

rob_liberti
07-29-2009, 02:07 PM
Hi Rob,
Very interesting. Your descriptions were cool. Can I ask about it?

Do you think that big part of the aiki is literally a pressure manipulation in the body's hydraulic system (i.e. liquid pressure in muscles & tissues)? (I assume that ground path is the major conduit of force, driven by hara). How can nage protect (hide?) his own hara even while simultaneously driving the motion from there?

I always wondered, can aiki techniques (e.g. aiki-age) be done *extremely slowly* or is there an element of speed/timing that *must* be present? Assuming they can be executed slowly, are they then easier to counter, or do you find it is still 'immutable' or 'inexorable'? Do you still get the 'my ears are going up' feeling? Can you actually feel the pressure rising in the body? Or is that manifested differently? Do you find there is an ability (or way) to 'push back' against that rising feeling? Man! Sounds like ihtbf. ;)

All of the above questions/views assume a lot, of course, and may be wrong..and hence unanswerable..

Cheers,
Josh

I really don't think aiki "is literally a pressure manipulation in the body's hydraulic system". It was just the best example I could come up with to describe that aspect of aiki done on me.

Of course you can attempt to use aiki against aiki.

The rest, I really think I'm far enough along to give a good enough answer. -Rob

mathewjgano
07-29-2009, 02:08 PM
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron

Hi Ron,
For one reason, I think because different terms speak better to different people.
Also, an analogy might be: I've yet to hear anyone claim to be perfect at teaching "it," but I presume acquiring "new" teachers of it might still be useful and give a better cross section of what "it" can be. You're right, past a certain point, talk does nothing but waste time, but I think that's an individual matter of taste as to where exactly the line is between what is and isn't worth it.
take care,
Matt

DH
07-29-2009, 02:20 PM
I wonder if it's a good idea to be so absolute about things. Buying into this idea of these skills being just some basic foundational building block that has no depth--is way off the beam. Maybe that's all some people can see at this point in their training.
Other then debates on the internet-and mind you with an increasingly smaller number of very vocal detractors who day by day are making themselves irrelevant --I seem to be seeing just the opposite in person. I am enjoying camaraderie and a VERY positive "meeting of the minds" with Aikido teachers and students alike who are putting in the work. As one teacher commented to me recently "This is like graduate school for teachers!"
So I'm not really concerned with debating those who; can't do it, can't explain it, can't or won't show it, and frankly have no credible reputation for having any skills anyone considers remarkable in any way. What's the point?

Discussions about Aiki and aikido waza
I unabashedly talk about aiki and aikido techniques-why can't I? I was and am a student of aikido, and can, and do, stand on my own experience and abilities with anyone from a myriad of styles. These comments that I am somehow an outsider unable to discuss Aikido waza are disingenuous and only serve to further support isolationism and a comfort zone for naysayers. Is it "supportable" as a debate point in person? While I remain open to examining that- I haven't seen it yet. Instead I see myself putting it out there, standing there toe-to-toe as a mudansha with 4th, 5th, and 6th dans and they are completely unable to do anything to me, and I can pretty much do what I want --if someone has and issue with that-I'd like to hear what it is? I am quite sure that if I were getting handed my butt people would not be objecting then. I think it remains that a left over issue is that the physical side of Aikido is having to finally face capable people on two fronts; the truly martial and effective, and now with the very essence of their art itself; knowledge and ability in - aiki - being questioned and examined. Maybe its smart to consider that those doing the questioning are not AGAINST you but are FOR you and are trying to make a difference in the art.
The debates only exist on the internet --I only see definitive and concrete-answers in person. Aikido teachers are proving time, and time again, to be very open, humble, eager and pretty cool at that. Maybe things are just a whole hell of lot better than people realize or know about. The only negative comments I keep getting are not pointed at me. The negative ones are more along the lines that these teachers are ticked off at their Japanese teachers for being either unable or unwilling to teach them and telling them it takes twenty years!
As far as I am concerned "IT" is no longer debated with anyone who had felt it and can do it. I'm just going to continue having fun teaching aikido teachers and seeing all of us westerners improving together. I am looking forward to the day when some Japanese hombu 8th dan Shihan stands there totally outclassed and says to one of these teachers "What was that?" I hope, on that day, one of them says
"Well, I could explain it to you, but you wouldn't understand because you're Japanese! It's a cultural thing!":D
Seriously though-I think its time we look to each other and help each other up the best we can instead of endlessly debating on the net. Get out and meet and see what you can do and what's out there. Be a good researcher. If this stuff is stopping and stymieing every single one of your teachers who encounters it- what does it say about you that you haven't at least checked it out. You might notice it isn't a pissing contest once it happens. Everyone makes friends-that's nothing to dismiss lightly.
Good luck in your training and hope to see you on the mat
Dan

Erick Mead
07-29-2009, 02:42 PM
Anyone here with a Ph.D. in Physics want to post the equations for when a human goes from a walk cycle to a run cycle? Ain't gonna happen because no one out there can do that yet. Why do you think the major animation studios use motion capture instead of software based programming? The former is more realistic and the latter takes huge amounts of time to make realistic, bypassing physics altogether.Heh. It wouldn't do you any good because it is a nonlinear function. This (http://www.fel.duke.edu/~scafetta/pdf/PRE51917.pdf) comes close.

The thing about gaits is that they undergo phase transitions. That is what you are talking about. See here: (http://cognaction.org/rick/pdfs/papers/spivey_anderson_dale_2009.pdf) A sudden and discontinuous change in the stability state of the structure of a material, or the dynamics of a system (which are the same thing, actually). Phase transitions are what happens when water changes to vapor and vapor to plasma --and plasma is otherwise called -- "fire" ...

Oh, pish, --- Fire and Water? Silly me, that can't possibly mean anything ... never mind. ;)

The more interesting thing in that second study is this part:

these intrinsic dynamics serve as an important characteristic of a
motor system that is coupling to oscillatory perceptual information in the environment. A
classic experiment by Schmidt, Carello, and Turvey17 has shown that when finger
twiddling becomes leg swaying, these phase transitions between rhythmic modes can
even occur between people. They had pairs of participants each sway a single leg while
seated beside each other. When they were able to perceive each other's leg movements,
the same phase tendencies as in Fig. 2 were exhibited by this two-person system.
Moreover, when subtle modulation of metronome rate occurs (even unbeknownst to
subjects), rapid compensation can occur in the relative asynchrony of tapping shown by
participants.18,19 For example, while participants tap to a metronome pulse, inter-pulse
intervals that change by +/- 10ms can be rapidly compensated for within just 2 or 3 taps.
This may be interpreted as rapid and "subliminal" phase transitions in sensorimotor
coordination. In fact, the same sorts of phase transition seen in these intrinsic motor
dynamics can also be shown in the dynamics of visual perception.

Erick Mead
07-29-2009, 02:59 PM
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
RonIn order to advance along this Way, first of all we must perfect ourselves.The thing I like about the Western Way of knowledge is that it both soberly accepts the inevitability and ultimate irreducibility of error and imperfection, while simultaneously demanding to measure and then reduce it with an implacable passion.

Michael McCaslin
07-29-2009, 04:51 PM
Ah, if both are imperfect, then what would be the point of investing effort in coming up with "new" "imperfect" terms????

Sounds like a waste of time to me...

Best,
Ron


It's worse than a waste of time. It's actually harmful to one's pursuit of these skills. Both Mike and Dan have technical backgrounds, and both have stated that Erick's descriptions do not apply to this type of body movement.

As someone trained in engineering, mechanical descriptions of these skills are very appealing to me. Indeed, I've gleaned some things from Mike's efforts in this area.

When Erick launches into soliloquies about catenary curves or propagation of shear forces, it's tempting to try to mine them for useful information because I understand some things about the language he is speaking. However, to do so presupposes that Mike and Dan's understanding of mechanics is sufficiently limited that neither one of them recognizes that Erick is describing the same thing they are doing and they just don't realize it. I'm not willing to take that gamble, especially since his descriptions don't really jive with my understanding (albeit very limited) of how these things are done.

My opinion is that Erick's understanding of mechanics is sort of an Achilles heel when it comes to progress, in that he seems content to believe that Mike and Dan's claims that they're not talking about the same thing stem from neither one of them taking the time (or perhaps not having the ability) to sufficiently analyze what is happening. I don't think he will let go of this idea until one of two things happens:

1. He actually goes to meet someone who can do these things, pays attention, and then reworks his model to account for what I'm confident will be new information to him. Then his current weakness would be a big strength, because he would likely come up with a model that those of us with a physics bent could understand and benefit from.

-or-

2. Someone who can actually do these things comes up with a mechanical model that is sufficiently detailed and obviously correct enough that Erick abandons his current model in favor of the new one.

I've been following these discussions for a while now, and I think these are both low probability events. But you never know...

At any rate, it's dangerous to take terms that already have a meaning which you understand and try to map them onto a skill set that you don't possess. You might end up thinking yourself into a corner. Sort of like smoking in a crowded room, you may end up affecting others. My advice to fellow data miners would be to consider the source carefully before you start digging.

FWIW,

Michael

mathewjgano
07-29-2009, 05:54 PM
I wonder if it's a good idea to be so absolute about things.
Hi Dan,
I'm not sure if you'd consider me as one of the folks you're describing, but this is exactly what I'm trying to argue. My sense of these conversations goes like this: someone suggests physical aiki is "missing" from aikido (a fairly absolute statement); others suggest its out there to various degrees (in Aikido) or, like me, suggest reasons why it might not be so present as it could be; to which there is generally a reply that that isn't "it." That's my sense from a lot of skimming and bouncing back and forth between daddy-duties and the pc, so I understand I may be missing some important chunks from the conversation.

Buying into this idea of these skills being just some basic foundational building block that has no depth--is way off the beam.
Who is saying this? I get the impression people are saying these skills can take a lifetime worth of study if one is so inclined...that's hardly a building block without any depth. I think you may be missing what the "detractors" are saying (I've not read anything lately that detracted from the idea that what you're doing is anything other than amazingly effective; the detractions have largely come against Aikido proper...as I've perceived things, FWIW).

Discussions about Aiki and aikido waza
I unabashedly talk about aiki and aikido techniques-why can't I?
Again, who is saying you can't or shouldn't? You have; you are right now; I hope you will continue to do so.

I was and am a student of aikido, and can, and do, stand on my own experience and abilities with anyone from a myriad of styles. These comments that I am somehow an outsider unable to discuss Aikido waza are disingenuous and only serve to further support isolationism and a comfort zone for naysayers.
I disagree: the notion that you are an outsider has also added to the notion that Aikido can benefit from those things that have what Aikido is supposedly missing (i.e. can learn by connecting to other view points rather than segregating itself from them).

Instead I see myself putting it out there, standing there toe-to-toe as a mudansha with 4th, 5th, and 6th dans and they are completely unable to do anything to me, and I can pretty much do what I want --if someone has and issue with that-I'd like to hear what it is?
That's great that you're able to show those higher ranked people that you're better than they are; I've not seen anyone suggest that ability is bad in any way. I don't see where you're finding an issue being made out of this...would you point me to it?

I think it remains that a left over issue is that the physical side of Aikido is having to finally face capable people on two fronts; the truly martial and effective, and now with the very essence of their art itself; knowledge and ability in - aiki - being questioned and examined. Maybe its smart to consider that those doing the questioning are not AGAINST you but are FOR you and are trying to make a difference in the art.
I see people suggesting they're content and other people suggesting they shouldn't be. I see people suggesting they have an idea of describing aspects of "it" and other people suggesting they're flat-out wrong...usually without even addressing the description. That's where I perceive the absolutism to mostly be taking place. I get it that the profoundly effective nature of your training lends itself to speaking very assertively, and I don't doubt the validity behind that, I simply think the conversation could be improved on both "sides."
If this stuff is stopping and stymieing every single one of your teachers who encounters it- what does it say about you that you haven't at least checked it out.
I'd like to hear what you think it would say about me. To me it would say only that I wasn't interested...although personally, I'm very interested and await the time to experience it directly. I wish I had dedicated myself more fully to my own training so I could say whether or not what I've done is anything like what you're doing.

You might notice it isn't a pissing contest once it happens. Everyone makes friends-that's nothing to dismiss lightly.
Good luck in your training and hope to see you on the mat
Dan
The back and forth to debate often seems like a pissing contest, and as soon as people perceive it that way, it usually starts to become one.
Dan, seriously, what you do appears to be a great thing for a lot of people and I think it's interesting how inflated these discussions become over what usually appears like a bunch of small caveats to me. It's kind of a funny spiral. My best wishes to you and I appologize if I'm mischaracterized you or the other "outsiders" in any way. I personally value the outsider perspective and rely upon it to keep my views in check...to me such a name is only a compliment and I hope you take it that way if I ever describe you as such.
Take care,
Matthew

gdandscompserv
07-29-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm really glad I'm only a shodan and therefore not expected to know much. :p My feeling is that my "IS" are woefully inadequate. I am however saving my vacation time and money for the chance to train with Dan and Mike. I hear they are really nice guy's who are more than willing to share what they know. One of the things I really like about their approach is the hands on you get with them. I also really like the idea of not knowing their rank. I think the whole rank structure of aikido needs to be thrown in the trash. Without the vetting process of competition it just doesn't mean much.

Sy Labthavikul
07-29-2009, 06:17 PM
At any rate, it's dangerous to take terms that already have a meaning which you understand and try to map them onto a skill set that you don't possess. You might end up thinking yourself into a corner. Sort of like smoking in a crowded room, you may end up affecting others. My advice to fellow data miners would be to consider the source carefully before you start digging.

Thanks, Michael. I also have a technical background, but all this discussion of what is/isn't "it" and aiki using mechanistic terms I'm not 100% convinced are appropriate in this context (my favorite is vorticity when we aren't dealing with fluid flow) is making my head spin. Since I've always been fascinated by internal strength skills and how it relates to aiki, I always guiltily hope that some kernel of wisdom will drop in these discussions so I don't have to do the hard work of going and learning these things from someone reputable, but your cautionary call to reason kinda woke me up.

I remember about a year ago I met a friend of a friend who said he had studied with Tim Cartmell for years (who himself studied with a number of internal martial artists in Taiwan and mainland China). This gentleman, who was a trained engineer and worked for JPL, told me he had come up with a model of how internal strength differed from external strength.

He said external strength was the contraction of muscles, causing limbs to swing about joints. The extension of the arm really is the contraction of the anterior deltoid and the triceps, among other things. There's a limit to how far such muscle contractions can go, and our nervous system tends to fire muscle contractions in a piecemeal, isolated way, and this is its limitation. The muscle tension created also made it difficult to have tactile sensitivity because of our tendency to focus our attention on that muscle contraction. Sure, it jived with my understanding of anatomy so far.

Internal strength, however, was about the expansion of the fascial network surrounding the muscles, including the muscles themselves. He likened it to a hydraulic system, with pistons everywhere in the body. It aided the muscle contractions of the external strength system, allowing for less tension needed and therefore allowing the body to maintain a certain degree of relaxation. This relaxation, coupled with all these pistons everywhere, gives you a very sensitive tactile sensitivity, like a bunch of force sensors all over your body, allowing you to feel and respond to outside forces very quickly. Basically, training the fascia made your body into a geodesic dome, a tensegrity structure.

This fascinated me because I had begun studying myofascial anatomy trains and tensegrity as part of my physical therapy studies (http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity). I wasn't exactly sure HOW one was able to control certain fascia, but I let him continue his explanation with a demo.

Unfortunately, his demo was to blow out a candle flame with a short range, unchambered punch. He was surprised when I wasn't impressed; I told him I could also do that, and did so. It was something I did with college buddies as a parlour trick (along with the exploding beer bottle bottom trick). He then tried to demonstrate his tactile sensitivity with a few baguazhang and xingyichuan throws with me resisting; they didn't feel much different from the techniques I practiced with the aikidoka and judoka I know who would be quick to admit they don't know what internal strength is. It certainly didn't feel anything like the one time I was lucky enough to get uprooted by a student of Chen Bing at a taijichuan seminar.

So despite the appealing theory, I came away from the experience without the secret of internal strength, just a theory that in all likelihood would be lucky to be even similar to an analogy of whats going on, and the friendship of a fellow martial arts student just as perplexed as me. We probably would have learned more just cross training with each other than sitting in a bar, discussing biomechanics over beer, but to academics, theory (and beer) has got a dangerous appeal.

Oh well. Anyone know of a teacher in the Los Angeles area who's got "it"? I feel like I need to think less and train more.

Lee Salzman
07-29-2009, 06:46 PM
... snip ...

I see people suggesting they're content and other people suggesting they shouldn't be. I see people suggesting they have an idea of describing aspects of "it" and other people suggesting they're flat-out wrong...usually without even addressing the description. That's where I perceive the absolutism to mostly be taking place. I get it that the profoundly effective nature of your training lends itself to speaking very assertively, and I don't doubt the validity behind that, I simply think the conversation could be improved on both "sides."

... snip ...

The back and forth to debate often seems like a pissing contest, and as soon as people perceive it that way, it usually starts to become one.
Dan, seriously, what you do appears to be a great thing for a lot of people and I think it's interesting how inflated these discussions become over what usually appears like a bunch of small caveats to me. It's kind of a funny spiral.

... snip ...


I think the grand thrust of all of this is group-think. The echo chamber keeps people satisfied enough with what aikido they know. But the danger on the other side seems to be a reverse group-think that treats any alternate opinions, even the original conservative ones, as a threat to their opinions.

Maybe the alternate opinions could be misguided, overcomplicated, or even wrong, but by no means is the discussion diminished by the inclusion of these things unless they border on slanderous or somehow infringe on one's own ability to practice his own opinion.

Maybe the newer group-think is definitively better, but if it just keeps inside its own little clique to the exclusion of everything else, it will eventually stagnate and become outclassed by something else, just like it proposes to do to the older group-think.

Skeptical inquiry is the only reason one knows if something is missing from aikido in the first place, so you gotta be certain that it doesn't get thrown under the bus somewhere along the way.

That's the only reason I try to take part in the discussion. I have no illusions that I have anything to teach the actors in the dialogue, but when I see people appealing to authority or lineage or pervasiveness or just the inherent intractibility of discussing the subject, it just makes me want to shed some shades of gray on the black and white.

When I set aside my aikido training to go off down the rabbit-hole of yiquan, one of the things that struck me was how readily my teacher was absorbing stuff from all differents sources, both old and modern, and just making stuff up on the spot wherever and whenever it served his purposes, and truly making stuff his own. This was not a dead tradition he was teaching me that was set in stone. He was teaching me knowledge that was very alive - fresh from his imagination or synthesized from a variety of sources - but still holding true to what he understood as yiquan and learned from his teacher. And he was asking me to be skeptical of everything he himself was teaching me. If anything, that open-mindedness could be part of what is missing in aikido by itself.

DH
07-29-2009, 07:08 PM
Matthew
It was nothing personal to me or about me. It was just the general direction of the discussion I was addressing; that the skills being discussed are just basics or foundational only, and that those forwarding them are from outside aikido, so as not to be able to demonstrate how they would work within aikido.
The only reason I personalized it at all is that I am only willing to discuss my own experiences in the demonstration and discussion of these things with teachers in the art. Other than that I just as soon leave it alone and let them address it later with their students.
Cheers
Dan

mathewjgano
07-29-2009, 07:31 PM
The echo chamber keeps people satisfied enough with what aikido they know.
Speaking personally, having other people echo my thoughts does little to satisfy. I agree group think is probably a big part of what contributes to mediocrity in any discipline. It falls under the category of I don't know what I don't know, except applies to groups. Ignorance reinforces itself insofaras it doesn't lead to understanding...If I'm making much sense.

Maybe the alternate opinions could be misguided, overcomplicated, or even wrong, but by no means is the discussion diminished by the inclusion of these things unless they border on slanderous or somehow infringe on one's own ability to practice his own opinion.
I agree alternate opinions are vital to expanding and deepening discussions, even if only to serve as incorrect examples. I consider myself to fit this category: I am utterly ignorant, but I try my best to engage the conversation. Where I may have something insightful I'm glad, but I think i tend to receive more benefit than I give..Hopefully over time I can make that change a bit in the other direction. These conversations, charged though they often become, are highly useful for many of us to better our training because they compell us to consider what we are doing and what other people are doing and how the two might apply to each other.

Skeptical inquiry is the only reason one knows if something is missing from aikido in the first place, so you gotta be certain that it doesn't get thrown under the bus somewhere along the way.
I don't think one needs to doubt something in order to inquire and learn something new about it.

That's the only reason I try to take part in the discussion. I have no illusions that I have anything to teach the actors in the dialogue, but when I see people appealing to authority or lineage or pervasiveness or just the inherent intractibility of discussing the subject, it just makes me want to shed some shades of gray on the black and white.
Amen! :D I love shades of gray!

If anything, that open-mindedness could be part of what is missing in aikido by itself.
And this is ultimately what I think is the main thrust of this issue: open-mindedness. We as students of whatever it is we're studying need to maintain an open mind where possible or we begin to preclude new information from joining the fray.

mathewjgano
07-29-2009, 07:37 PM
Matthew
It was nothing personal to me or about me. It was just the general direction of the discussion I was addressing; that the skills being discussed are just basics or foundational only, and that those forwarding them are from outside aikido, so as not to be able to demonstrate how they would work within aikido.
The only reason I personalized it at all is that I am only willing to discuss my own experiences in the demonstration and discussion of these things with teachers in the art. Other than that I just as soon leave it alone and let them address it later with their students.
Cheers
Dan

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying that for me, Dan.
Take care!
Matt

thisisnotreal
07-29-2009, 10:57 PM
..Buying into this idea of these skills being just some basic foundational building block that has no depth--is way off the beam. ..


...Most of the people I see talking about and describing "It" leave me with the impression that they're talking about some limited aspect of skills (the ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills) that are to be learned much like Calculus as part of your math education.

I wonder what kind of thing is it that can have these things said about it.
What is it, if not a foundational element? People aren't arguing that it's simple, are they? Rather, I though they were arguing as to whether there was one or not. The assumption must be that it is richly complex. I do not think that is the argument, but is that what you are countering? Is it still; the 'temerity' to try to make a simple physical model, what you were talking about? I thought your example of fluid-weight-dispersing refrigerator on a series of spindles with swiveljoints was a nice picture. (and something about the variable support guy-wires). I know i mangled it ;)
Or what Mike said; "Or if it is not a skill to be learned"? I mean i know it is the toolbox (read: ‘way' you carry and move the body) .. but it is to be learned as a skill? It'll change the way you walk and other stuff; but it is learned, nontheless as a Calculus skill set, not an equation or a trick; but a set of skills to ‘achieve' things; for instance like in the shiko thread. Mike, ‘How are they not like Calculus, to be learned?' Is the problem the limited scope of the discussion? You know my next question, if that is it (?)
I do not read these correctly, I think. Maybe i snipped out of context; sorry if so. Is the way it changes *you* what is being alluded to?
Just *what* are we talking about? (I'm left wondering..).
Any thoughts are appreciated.
Josh

thisisnotreal
07-29-2009, 11:21 PM
What is aiki age?

rob_liberti
07-30-2009, 02:41 AM
Josh,

age meaning upward like "Kiriage" (upward cut)
I used that term to describe one application of aiki.

My interpretation of what you quoted from Dan is that he is saying that the aiki he is researching has plenty of depth.

My interpretation of what you quoted from Mike is that he is saying that there are additional aspects of the broader-skillset other than what Mike suspects Dan to be researching. While I suspect this to be true (maybe more specific health aspects, and maybe some martial aspects, who knows) I have not yet read about any of the "value-adds" from these other aspects, and would really like to. So far, it always kind of reads to me like: "but wait, there's more...." and then not a lot about WHAT anyone would want what is "more" for. That's my personal take. Agree?

Rob

Michael Douglas
07-30-2009, 03:30 AM
Thanks for that story Sy,... I let him continue his explanation with a demo.

Unfortunately, his demo was to blow out a candle flame with a short range, unchambered punch. He was surprised when I wasn't impressed; I told him I could also do that, and did so. It was something I did with college buddies as a parlour trick (along with the exploding beer bottle bottom trick). He then tried to demonstrate his tactile sensitivity with a few baguazhang and xingyichuan throws with me resisting; they didn't feel much different from the techniques I practiced with the aikidoka and judoka I know who would be quick to admit they don't know what internal strength is. ...
Isn't that almost always the case?
I really think it is best to NOT try to explain some skills, not because that damages ability but because those with the biggest explanations often seem to have the lowest skills.
Tricks and tests however are valuable and should be used more often and developed into commonly accepted ways of gauging skills.

dps
07-30-2009, 10:09 AM
In Mike's video, 'Mike_Sigman_Aikido_and_Internal_Strength',( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-490520230360622262&ei=ZbVxSqCjKqWgqgK0_f2ECg&q=mike+sigman&hl=en) he mentions "ground path coming up" and, "gravity and connection of the body going down".

How do you explain how these work in relation to the systems of the body; skeleton, muscles, nervous system, etc?

How does these relate to IT?

David

rob_liberti
07-30-2009, 10:21 AM
I think Mike went into quite a bit of detail about that right here on aikiweb. I always wished I kept track of those posts to just make a wiki out of it all.

I would say that video does a good job helping people who have started thinking about IT to get their mind oriented toward the first steps of IT. How he uses his back on that video was pretty interesting, IIRC .

Rob

dps
07-30-2009, 10:24 AM
This fascinated me because I had begun studying myofascial anatomy trains and tensegrity as part of my physical therapy studies (http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity). I wasn't exactly sure HOW one was able to control certain fascia, but I let him continue his explanation with a demo.


I could't get that link to work, how about these.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity/fascialfabric

http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tensegrity/explained

David

dps
07-30-2009, 10:47 AM
I think Mike went into quite a bit of detail about that right here on aikiweb. I always wished I kept track of those posts to just make a wiki out of it all.

Could you give us an idea of what they said?

I would say that video does a good job helping people who have started thinking about IT to get their mind oriented toward the first steps of IT. How he uses his back on that video was pretty interesting, IIRC .

This video would be a beginning of understanding what IT is?

David

Mike Sigman
07-30-2009, 11:39 AM
My interpretation of what you quoted from Mike is that he is saying that there are additional aspects of the broader-skillset other than what Mike suspects Dan to be researching. What I was really saying was that this discussion of "It" assumes a limited discussion and there's a lot more to it that anything *anyone* has indicated on AikiWeb to date. Hence my caution about "Joe Blow has it" because too often IME Joe Blow has some bits and pieces. I.e., I'm suggesting people tread carefully.

Mike

rob_liberti
07-30-2009, 01:05 PM
Could you give us an idea of what they said?

Click on "search", and then "advanced search", for user type "Mike Sigman", for the keyword type "body", and I tend to prefer to select "posts" over "threads" for search results.

Just from the first page there are some links:
harmonies:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234572&highlight=body#post234572
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234054&highlight=body#post234054
"X" model:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=233483&highlight=body#post233483

Anyone want to make this their project, please put the results in a wiki.

Rob

dps
07-30-2009, 01:24 PM
Click on "search", and then "advanced search", for user type "Mike Sigman", for the keyword type "body", and I tend to prefer to select "posts" over "threads" for search results.

Just from the first page there are some links:
harmonies:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234572&highlight=body#post234572
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234054&highlight=body#post234054
"X" model:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=233483&highlight=body#post233483

Anyone want to make this their project, please put the results in a wiki.

Rob

I am doing some research into that now. Meanwhile, would the video be a beginning of an explanation of IT.

David

rob_liberti
07-30-2009, 01:30 PM
I would say that Mike demonstrates some limited aspects of IT in that video. (Also limited since you are not touching him and you know, it has to be felt).
Mike???

dps
07-30-2009, 02:23 PM
I would say that Mike demonstrates some limited aspects of IT in that video. (Also limited since you are not touching him and you know, it has to be felt).
Mike???

Then doing the Aikido exercises in the video would be doing limited aspects of IT.

How would you develope IT even more using these Aikido exercises?

David

gdandscompserv
07-30-2009, 03:43 PM
In Mike's video, 'Mike_Sigman_Aikido_and_Internal_Strength',( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-490520230360622262&ei=ZbVxSqCjKqWgqgK0_f2ECg&q=mike+sigman&hl=en)
I learn something every time I watch that video.:cool:

rob_liberti
07-30-2009, 03:47 PM
"How would you develope IT even more using these Aikido exercises?" I'm not sure, sorry. Instead, I would approach IT by finding people with aiki that can help pull it out of me. -Rob

dps
07-30-2009, 03:52 PM
"How would you develope IT even more using these Aikido exercises?" I'm not sure, sorry. Instead, I would approach IT by finding people with aiki that can help pull it out of me. -Rob

What do you see in the video that shows you Mike is using limited aspects of IT?

David

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-30-2009, 04:07 PM
I learn something every time I watch that video.:cool:

...not to ever tuck your t-shirt into your sweat pants? :straightf

.

gdandscompserv
07-30-2009, 04:15 PM
Then doing the Aikido exercises in the video would be doing limited aspects of IT.

How would you develope IT even more using these Aikido exercises?

David
From my limited understanding, I would try to develop IT by mentally trying to make the connection Mike talks about from the wrist to the back, the spine and the ground. I think the torque should be felt all along those paths rather than just isolated at the wrist.

gdandscompserv
07-30-2009, 04:18 PM
...not to ever tuck your t-shirt into your sweat pants? :straightf

.
I appreciated that aspect of it because I was able to better see how Mike moved his hara. Certainly you can see his hara move in a very connected manner, no?

dps
07-30-2009, 05:44 PM
Also fits in with one my pet peeves
Let's put the weight of the refrigerator on top of a series of spindles supported by a series of different rotating swivels, supported by drawn wires with different counter supporting chains of force, and have then have the weight be far more fluid and controlled to respond to different vectors of force. Then lets have that mechanism control react differently everytime.
Write back when you have the math exact enough that you can defend it like a dissertation.

I am not a mathematician but this sounds like a tensegrity structure.

http://gnosticdynamo.blogspot.com/2009/02/explaination-of-actuated-tensegrity.html

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:5BzOAn00FWkJ:maeweb.ucsd.edu/~skelton/publications/bossens_modal_three_stage.pdf+Tensegrity+load+structures&cd=11&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

David

rob_liberti
07-30-2009, 08:16 PM
How he uses his back on that video was pretty interesting, IIRC .

Well, the "IIRC" was the hint that I hadn't bothered to click on the link and confirm what I remembered. I saw a video of Mike where he showed you what he was doing with his back muscles to move his arm which demonstrated some aspect of structure used for accessing IT. I looked briefly at the video posted and I didn't see the part I was remembering so I wonder if I was thinking of a different vid. Regardless, you have to feel it. It's been like 5 posts about this. I'm not being evasive, just not willing to put in a lot of time to a subject that has the same answer everytime - it has to be felt.

I'm half expecting a reply that says something like "what does it look like when you feel it?" The people who can do it well, don't have to make it obvious. Rob

Rob

Mike Sigman
07-30-2009, 10:34 PM
I saw a video of Mike where he showed you what he was doing with his back muscles to move his arm which demonstrated some aspect of structure used for accessing IT. I looked briefly at the video posted and I didn't see the part I was remembering so I wonder if I was thinking of a different vid. You know, I did those old internal-strength vids almost 15 years ago. There was a lot of basic stuff that I tried to stick to knowing that the future was coming and I didn't want to be wrong on anything as time went by. Still, I missed something very important that is an adjunct. I.e., I know more now than I did back then. That's what I mean that people have to be careful and understand that this is a deep topic.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

thisisnotreal
07-30-2009, 10:51 PM
What I was really saying was that this discussion of "It" assumes a limited discussion and there's a lot more to it that anything *anyone* has indicated on AikiWeb to date. Hence my caution about "Joe Blow has it" because too often IME Joe Blow has some bits and pieces. I.e., I'm suggesting people tread carefully.

Mike

Hi Mike,
Wellll...thinking about that. I agree. Have to, i guess. This stuff is really rare and hard to learn about anyway, right? So we learn bits and pieces, as you say. Out of this rare set of people learning _any_ of the skills (at all?/poorly?), rarer still would be those with a 'complete' picture, as you allude. I think it must be very hard to find. Could you say what type of people may have such a view? Shaolin monks, say?
but honestly, i dunno.
Best,
Josh

thisisnotreal
07-30-2009, 10:58 PM
this is "It"< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbvipmVYGzA) for sure, i'd say. eh? anyone care to do a frame x frame video analysis of that?
@1:12; where he kinda looks like a gorilla (i mean that in a good way); bouncing the 'energy'/muscular tension around inside of him. axis to axis. i think maybe i felt the beginning of feeling that way. along windings even.

comments on the vid?

Mark Freeman
07-31-2009, 11:08 AM
I would say that Mike demonstrates some limited aspects of IT in that video. (Also limited since you are not touching him and you know, it has to be felt).
Mike???

You dont 'have' to feel it, you can see plainly in the video that all Mike's movements are from the centre with co-ordination to all
his limbs. His descriptions are about the basics of this kind of movement. What he is not doing is going into the much deeper aspects of where the mind/ki is being placed/directed. This is not a criticism, as that was plainly not part of the demo in the first place. Nearly all demonstrations are limited to one small aspect of what one is trying to instruct. 'IT' is a subject that can't be covered completely in a short demo, although aspects of IT have to be present, otherwise it would be a waste of time;)

For me, IT is not present if you can't feel IT 'before' physical contact is made:) Way too much of the discussion in this thread has focussed on the 'mechanics' of IT and not enough on the mental/ki side of the equation. George Ledyard's post on attention/intention and giving/recieving seems to me to be addressing some of what is missing in some aikido.

regards

Mark

akiy
07-31-2009, 11:13 AM
Hi folks,

Can we please remember to steer the thread towards explicitly and pertinently including aikido in our discussion?

Thank you,

-- Jun

Mike Sigman
07-31-2009, 11:21 AM
His descriptions are about the basics of this kind of movement. Exactly. Those tapes were one of my attempts to break the impasse and lay out my idea of some foot-in-the-door discussion of how-to's. I.e., the idea was similar to the same attempts verbally on this forum. Things are now progressing. But overall I think those tapes are outdated because I would say many things differently (more clearly and more condensed and more info) nowadays.

Notice my partner was an Aikidoist. ;)

FWIW

Mike

Mark Freeman
07-31-2009, 11:43 AM
But overall I think those tapes are outdated because I would say many things differently (more clearly and more condensed and more info) nowadays.

outdated, maybe? but it does get the point across effectively. Hopefully any of us engaged in trying to instruct this type of skill will change what we say as our own understanding deepens through our own practice.

Hopefully one day we will meet and you can give me some hands on instruction that will help me improve my range of internal skills, and maybe in return I can help you out by improving your nikkyo;)

regards,

Mark

DH
07-31-2009, 12:33 PM
Its another reason I hate video.
With the nature of this work you make breakthroughs and grow and learn. I once saw a video of a teacher of mine that was about fifteen years old. He was a shadow of what he was presently. Then he changed focus and went to train with another internal method and I watched and felt him change before my eyes over a very short time frame-maybe 5 years or so.
Next up, I got to train and then talk with a master level Chinese teacher who's own student said the teacher had "jumped" over the last ten years. The teacher agreed.
I guess the real questions are
Do you presently have or see tools that are doing that in you.
Would you know them if you saw them?
Have you had a chance to cross check them with other methods or people you know.
Or, are you still among the group having a great night at the dojo where "things just seemed to click" but you cannot state definitively what those things were? Or do you know a specific set of things to do to build it in your Aikido that are giving you relatively rapid results compared to your mates?
Cheers
Dan

dps
07-31-2009, 12:49 PM
Way too much of the discussion in this thread has focussed on the 'mechanics' of IT

No, as the OP the "mechanics of IT" as applied to Aikido is what I want discussed.

and not enough on the mental/ki side of the equation. George Ledyard's post on attention/intention and giving/recieving seems to me to be addressing some of what is missing in some aikido.

With due respect, go to George's thread and discuss those things there.

David

dps
07-31-2009, 12:55 PM
You dont 'have' to feel it, you can see plainly in the video that all Mike's movements are from the centre with co-ordination to all
his limbs. His descriptions are about the basics of this kind of movement. What he is not doing is going into the much deeper aspects of where the mind/ki is being placed/directed. This is not a criticism, as that was plainly not part of the demo in the first place. Nearly all demonstrations are limited to one small aspect of what one is trying to instruct. 'IT' is a subject that can't be covered completely in a short demo, although aspects of IT have to be present, otherwise it would be a waste of time;)

Its another reason I hate video.
With the nature of this work you make breakthroughs and grow and learn.

But overall I think those tapes are outdated because I would say many things differently (more clearly and more condensed and more info) nowadays.

I agree, but the video does show IT to some degree.

David

Erick Mead
07-31-2009, 01:25 PM
"jumped" over the last ten years. ...
I guess the real questions are
Do you presently have or see tools that are doing that in you.
Would you know them if you saw them?
Have you had a chance to cross check them with other methods or people you know.
Or, are you still among the group having a great night at the dojo where "things just seemed to click" but you cannot state definitively what those things were?
Or do you know a specific set of things to do to build it in your Aikido that are giving you relatively rapid results compared to your mates?
Yes.Yes.Yes.No.Yes.
:)
That was simple.

"The forms of aikido techniques are preparation to unlock and soften all joints of our body." M. Ueshiba.

The question is whether one has sensed the meaning of unlocked and softened joints, and related that to training in a rigorous and methodical way such that one is able to construct one's own training, and to create a novel and useful training sequence on a moment's notice or on the fly, and perform it as you do so without any plan to speak of. If one has done so for more than a year or two, then the answers above are obvious -- if not then they will differ on several points.

phitruong
07-31-2009, 01:33 PM
Hopefully one day we will meet and you can give me some hands on instruction that will help me improve my range of internal skills, and maybe in return I can help you out by improving your nikkyo;)

Mark

don't help him improve his nikkyo! that way next time i see Mike i can say, with a smirk on my face, "ha! you might be an internal master, but i can put a nikkyo on you that makes me cry!" :D

RED
07-31-2009, 02:31 PM
Hmm... it seems like the majority of people are saying the exact same thing, but in different terms.

Erick Mead
07-31-2009, 10:26 PM
Erick,

Please consider making a youtube video of your shear explanation. If you could then show how that relates to tai no henka in the video it would be great but it'd appreciate just seeing a vid of the 2 pencil -contraption you described.As you wish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmglyhCi6VE

In the demo, after showing the problems with two different leverages, when in compressive buckling shear the hands suddenly come together (irimi) in a plane -- lifting the collapsing connection in shear.It could just as easily shear sideways or down or anywhere in between, and it is directable but not like exerting leveraged direction.

Instead of a simple planar shear, which is what is in the demo, in tai no henko, the turn converts it into a 3D spiral action, making it irimi/tenkan

While this is compressive shear, tensile shear is "whips and chains" . Seems different, but same thing, just reversed sign in the action.

Waves or vibrations are, on the other hand cyclically alternating compressive and tensile shears, capable of buckling at either tensile or compressive connections, depending what phase of the wave or vibration hits the junction.

In a further twist, (pun intended) we have torsional waves, cycling in two planes at once, which can buckle things that seem otherwise very strong.

Other video will have to wait, I am afraid.

dps
07-31-2009, 11:29 PM
But overall I think those tapes are outdated because I would say many things differently (more clearly and more condensed and more info) nowadays.

What would you say differently?

David

Mike Sigman
08-01-2009, 08:27 AM
What would you say differently?

DavidI just keep trying to cook and condense these things down to the simplest and most easily-understood explanations. After a lot of years of doing, naturally a lot of explanations and thus perspectives have resolved into different ways of describing things. Plus all the added insights I've had over the years, the improvement in my own skills and understandings, conditioning, etc. Things change. I think Ueshiba and many others have noted that same effect in their comments. There's more to this than a quicky workshop in order to get good at it. ;)

Mike

dps
08-01-2009, 10:03 AM
These two video clips describe the structure of the body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ajowL0T4bM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNPgqS3EfRw&feature=channel

David

Buck
08-01-2009, 11:53 AM
Mr. Sigman,

I would like to make a few comments, and observations. You have opined things that criticize Aikido directly and indirectly to point out the value of what you offer to improve Aikido. Yet, you make references to O'sensei in line that validates your stuff. I am confused by that.

The stuff you offer is fundamentally "essences" (principles) of Tai Chi servicing some Aikidoka. I see it really is no different that what already exists in Aikido. I find the value in your stuff in some of the explanation that is outside the paradigm of Aikido. It is always valuable to look at things from a different position in the room.

When you discuss your stuff, you use different explanations, and terminology, words to explain what you feel are improvements to Aikido. That tends to look like what you are saying is completely different to that in Aikido. But in short, it is the same physics in play that Aikido uses. The application, the approach, the terms, and all that stuff, is the outer shell colored differently with a seemingly different appearance between Aikido and you.

In your video, you take an approach to a waza that is within the confines of Aikido. If people look closely not engaging in your presentation they will see all Aikido principles at work. Many people might see it as intriguing because they not aware of it, due to many reason, and as a result to your presentation of the same principles.

Your presentation using different models, language, aids, and stuff, all of which are coloring the same universal principle (physics) differently. Yet all of that is suffering from the same susceptibilities to errors, faults and criticisms you point out in Aikido.

In Aikido, a Hakama is worn. The Hakama is an important garment in Aikido. Why? Because of the Koshi-ita. That has a reason, it has a purpose. Just as the over-all Hakama does. The importance of me making a point of this, is that is something you don't address its function in relation to what you're demonstrating in your video. In Aikido there is an importance to the Koshi-ita. It is not there just because. It plays a role, like the Hakama, in proper movement and how it enhances body training and movement. The Hakama isn't an essential part of performing Aikido waza, but it is important to the training of Aikido taisabaki, and other stuff you mention. The function of the Hakama as a learning aid to proper movement and technique, in my opinion, over-looked, and not always completely understood. For example, in your words making connections.

To make that connection, I don't feel it is important to do so, by being acutely aware of how the loads place on the spine. Or a being double weighted and stuff. Rather being more acutely aware the gross body movements realized resulting from the use of proper body alignment, posture and from other benefits from an aiding Hakama.

I was taught to "connect" my center with uke's center. It was taught to me to imagine there is a connecting rod running level through both are dan tien, ( I prefer the location of the obi knot). And when I would move my "center" so shall the uke's; move in sync. The body has to be in good upright natural posture. That means no pelvis, either tilt forward or back. When this method of connection is achieved correctly it takes very little movement on my part. But the result is, the Uke is moved a tremendous amount and distance. In another way, being at the center of a circle (and using ordinary language) and my Uke being on the edge of a circle travels a greater distance on the edge of the circle than I. BTW, I know to all the Aikidoka out there this is simply and nothing new. Connection can be achieved in this manner, with great results.

In your method, it reminds me of the old rubber band potential and kinetic energy thingy taught in high school, in relation to your demonstrative twisted body position, putting a load on the spine, hip turning, and shifting your weight to one leg or another. I have no doubt that is effective in a punch. Twisting up your body in the described method you presented has a different result and application to what I described on how we were taught to connect to the Uke.

I am not saying anything revolutionary, or anything. The only similarity I see is which such a common thing in all martial arts is is moving the body as a unit. That power is created with the hips and legs, and not just with the upper body. Therefore, if I the waza I will move my hips first that move that move the rest of the upper body. I too will not readjust the level or position of my arms; I will keep them in place. In that way, when I turn my hips, everything moves with the hips, the waza is kept in place- staying the same, and I move a little and the Uke moves a lot. Just as you did in your demonstration.

The difference is you generate your power from a gross twisting or winding of the whole body, like the rubber band. I feel this is also done in Aikido but not with the same gross movement. That is do to connecting with the Uke at the center mass of his body, i.e. a simply put, moving your pelvis, move the uke's pelvis via the waza. Moving the greater mass is and has always been the key. There are several ways it can be done. But, the focus isn't place on the method over moving the center mass. The goal is to move the center mass and dickering or minutiae over which method is better, as several methods are applicable.

Of what I have seen as your solution to Aikido, has already been explained and demonstrated by so many, such as Erle Montaigue, Robert Chuckrow, Peter Ralston, Bruce Lee, and all the other on the Barn's and Noble book shelf, and YouTube. I think if a person takes the perspective of Tai chi, and Chinese martial art and applies it to Aikido , over time will they find, they really weren't missing anything at all in their Aikido.

I don't have any issues with what you present, it may help some, but I feel that Aikido contains all the same elements, all the same physics, all the same stuff that you point out. The difference is in degree, and presentation. Now that assumes instruction on either side is competent, complete and all that stuff.

I think if any thing is missing in Aikido as well as in your fix-it patch, is with instruction that is lacking, and it is incomplete in knowledge and understanding. It also should be placed with the student who can't figure it out, not as serious, looking for the easy way, and not putting the time into it, and all that. The science is the same.

Buck
08-01-2009, 03:12 PM
I would like to conclude that I see nothing wrong with what you present. What I am having difficulty is the connection that what you offer is a "fix" for Aikido, or providing something that is missing in Aikido. I think what you have is sound principles at work within the framework of CMA on a common martial arts techique found in CMA and Aikido (at the waza's core). Your presentation doesn't address the full scope of that technique within the framework of Aikido. Therefore, I am having a difficultly in seeing how your approach via CMA to be what Aikido is missing.

What I see rather is, again, how CMA would handle a joint lock to the point of being standard grappling, i.e. become effective Chin-Na. That is not the purpose or the scope of Aikido waza to be grappling. I would say your "fix" would relate more to those who are ineffectively performing Chin-Na. Your presentation would be of great value if that was the case. :)

Mike Sigman
08-01-2009, 04:23 PM
(snip long opinion with no factual discussion)Buck, will you cite where I have been criticizing Aikido, as you just asserted? And if you want to debate an issue, debate the points of the issue. Please don't take take the discussion to "you this" and "you that". It's called an "ad hominem" argument if that's what you do. Fairly low grade, in terms of any applied logic.

Mike Sigman

Kevin Leavitt
08-01-2009, 04:44 PM
Buck wrote:

In Aikido, a Hakama is worn. The Hakama is an important garment in Aikido. Why? Because of the Koshi-ita. That has a reason, it has a purpose. Just as the over-all Hakama does. The importance of me making a point of this, is that is something you don't address its function in relation to what you're demonstrating in your video. In Aikido there is an importance to the Koshi-ita. It is not there just because. It plays a role, like the Hakama, in proper movement and how it enhances body training and movement. The Hakama isn't an essential part of performing Aikido waza, but it is important to the training of Aikido taisabaki, and other stuff you mention. The function of the Hakama as a learning aid to proper movement and technique, in my opinion, over-looked, and not always completely understood. For example, in your words making connections.

You experience may tell you this and I will certainly not take this away from you Buck, but this is not a universal fact nor is it empirical by any stretch of the imagination.

Koshita I am sure have a reason, and maybe it is to "encourage posture" much like much of the Victorian garb did in western culture.

However, to go so far as to say that it actually does that and "Has a place in aikido" is a far stretch. I have had none of my instructors or Shihan ever tell me that. Many dojos don't even wear hakama. I have never felt that it really did much at all as far as transmit skill or encourage posture.

If it did, then we'd see a distinct measureable outcome and difference between folks that wear them and folks that don't. You simply don't see this.

Besides, it really physically does absolutely nothing anyway. The Problem with posture is not the external lumbar area, but that of the whole spine and thoracic cavity and all the things attached to it...internally. having the pelvis in line with the spine, the shoulders engaged properly and extension thorugh the head and down through the ground is what we are trying to do.

That is alot of work and not an easy thing to do. That little piece of crap on your back has NOTHING to do with any of that! NOTHING!

If anything, by my observations, I'd say it is actually HINDERING development in this area since I have actually been with more folks that I consider "good" in this area that don't wear hakama vice those that do wear it.

The hakama is simply a distraction for folks I believe in many cases.

It is meant to be a traditional piece of clothing to allow us to hold on to heritage and to take us to another place to prepare us to train.

However, I think many fixate on it, make it a status simply, turn it into a pious piece of clothing, and then form attachments to it that are simply counter to the whole process we are trying to fix!

Sorry, but that is the way I see it.

Buck
08-01-2009, 09:57 PM
Buck, will you cite where I have been criticizing Aikido, as you just asserted? And if you want to debate an issue, debate the points of the issue. Please don't take take the discussion to "you this" and "you that". It's called an "ad hominem" argument if that's what you do. Fairly low grade, in terms of any applied logic.

Mike Sigman

Oh... the difficulting in language rears its ugly head. Shucks, I am refering to the terms as discribed by Merriam-Webster definitions below. Both appy, but I am not infering to the petty type of criticism and resutling mudslinging. Criticism, as I ment, refers evaluation and fault concerning Aikido on a technical level as technicians. Boy, I am glad that is cleared up now.

Main Entry:crit·i·cize
Pronunciation:\ˈkri-tə-ˌsīz\
Function:verb
Inflected Form(s):crit·i·cized; crit·i·ciz·ing
Date:1643
intransitive verb
: to act as a critic
transitive verb
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate 2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of
— crit·i·ciz·able \-ˌsī-zə-bəl\ adjective
— crit·i·ciz·er noun

Next, I was being critical of your video technically and not personally, nor intending to be malicious or petty. I provided my criticism in the form of comments and not arguments.

(to lighten things up) And now for something completely different, two very large men wearing one very small tiny Hakama. :D

Buck
08-01-2009, 10:17 PM
Buck wrote:

You experience may tell you this [about the hakama].

I appreciate your thoughts and efforts, umm...I wasn't going that far into the Hakama- It does serve a purpose and function. But, I am focusing on a part of it in relation to movement. How it relates to and limits movement that serves the body and as Mike says, "core strength" and "the unbowing back." Keep in mind, I am making assumptions the level of the conversation is past the fundamental explanation and understanding of the concepts in both arts. That the conversation is on a more advance level.

What I am saying or pointing out is that the area of "core strength" that it isn't an aspect that is thought of in those terms in Aikido, hence if so then is considered to be missing. Yet it isn't, as it appears in the function and design of the Hakama addressing "core strength," "unbowing back" and other functions existing in the proper execution of Aikido waza- and stuff.

Point being what might be considered missing really mayn't be.

I don't want to focus on the other Hakama stuff, as it would make its own great thread. :)

Kevin Leavitt
08-01-2009, 10:45 PM
No problem Buck. My take on the hakama though is that it does absolutely nothing at the beginning or the advanced level (whatever that may be). It simply is a piece of cloth that may make you feel good, but adds little or no value physically to the practice.

To comment on the other parts of your post to Mike.

I have personally found it helpful to study several modalities when trying to understand this stuff. As you state, absolutley, it CAN all bet there in AIkido. However, it is not so much about what in inclusvie or exclusive in the actual concept of aikido, but what the teacher can teach and the student can learn or recieve.

I have benefited greatly from hearing different descriptions and lanquaging from many different styles and traditions.

I get a little out of what Mike Sigman tries/tried to convey, almost two years later I am still processing the info he provided. I was just reading the notes he provided to me. I find that things I did not get 2 years ago, now I am seeing differently.

Same with Ark...and lately my Yoga practice is providing me new insights.

Again, it has been most helpful to me to have things described and practiced in different ways, languaging, and formats.

Mike Sigman has probably done the best job out of anyone out there in trying to provide a format, process, and practice that is void of all the trappings of culture and martial style.

I think those things are fine (culture/style) but they also get in the way of learning/transmission.

Certainly we all draw from our experiences, and our teaching styles will tend to gravitate to the culutres/styles/traditions we know.

However, what I think is most important is stripping away all the chafe, and focusing on the core prinicples that really matter (not techniques or styles), and learning them for what they really are.

So, IMO, the fact that you mention the hakama is no small thing really in this light. It is to me, another example of the chafe/static that gets in the way of us really learning what we need to learn.

Buck
08-02-2009, 12:09 AM
Good thoughts, Kevin. You touched on something I wasn't make obvious on purpose. I think I better. I wonder if we compared Mike wearing a Hakama in his video to the original one where he wears sweat pants how the movements would change and compare. That would be in the results. It is hard to layout the details here in words and stuff to get an accurate picture, and what am getting at is the scope of Aikido is different than that of CMA. The approach and goals are different and stuff as well.

Because of that some people feel there is something missing in Aikido, and there isn't. I am not against different methods of explanations of principles or execution of Aikido. Or the comparing or pointing out in the similarities or differences of principles/physics associated to any martial art. What I have difficult with the thinking that Aikido is missing something in someway, when in fact it is more likely what is missing is with the individual's scope and stuff.

What this means is there is a displacement of understanding and a undeveloped perspective of Aikido technically that is displayed in the form of criticism by the individual, rather than an element missing in Aikido. You don't blame physics if you can't work a lever, or blame he physics behind something, because it didn't work for you as intended.

If you don't understand physics and it applications, no martial art is going to work properly for you. You really have to understand Aikido for it to work at its maximum potential- and that is true for Tai Chi, Chi Gong and other CMA. That doesn't happen over night because Aikido is an art. Mike has been at CMAs for how long and he even make criticisms concerning his tapes. Point being it is an on going, a growing, developing processes. Both arts are not like learning to use an iphone, and there really isn't a quick tips guide that will get you started right away.

What Mike shows is CMA. Aikido isn't CMA. Both share the use of physics, used in different approaches, methods, result and stuff.

In simple terms, I don't think a cricket player can fix the swing of a baseball player. Both games swing a stick, and hit a ball, but they are not the same game. And if you where to mix the two sports together then it wouldn't be either. It would be something different, a whole different ball game. But, I don't think either game is lacking nor that one can fix the other.

I do believe learning new approaches to teaching and learning is fine in any art within the art- keep in mind my cricket and baseball example. Aikido is just such an art where that can be beneficial especially to those who don't understand Japanese language. But that is different then taking Taichi methods to Aikido. Like I said before it is because of the different purposes and frameworks each are in. :)

Adman
08-02-2009, 12:56 AM
In simple terms, I don't think a cricket player can fix the swing of a baseball player. Both games swing a stick, and hit a ball, but they are not the same game. And if you where to mix the two sports together then it wouldn't be either. It would be something different, a whole different ball game. But, I don't think either game is lacking nor that one can fix the other.

So, would it then be outside the realm for an aikido teacher to fix the swing of a baseball player?

Thanks,
Adam

C. David Henderson
08-02-2009, 07:41 AM
Hint: this happend.

Kevin Leavitt
08-02-2009, 07:42 AM
Buck wrote:

Good thoughts, Kevin. You touched on something I wasn't make obvious on purpose. I think I better. I wonder if we compared Mike wearing a Hakama in his video to the original one where he wears sweat pants how the movements would change and compare. That would be in the results. It is hard to layout the details here in words and stuff to get an accurate picture, and what am getting at is the scope of Aikido is different than that of CMA. The approach and goals are different and stuff as well.

Because of that some people feel there is something missing in Aikido, and there isn't. I am not against different methods of explanations of principles or execution of Aikido. Or the comparing or pointing out in the similarities or differences of principles/physics associated to any martial art. What I have difficult with the thinking that Aikido is missing something in someway, when in fact it is more likely what is missing is with the individual's scope and stuff.

Buck, I think the disconnect with us on this issue is you are combining two different things. The conceptual idea of "Aikido" at the Macro level with the Actual practice.

If you separate the two out I think it makes things much easier to discuss.

Conceptually I would agree that the Vision of AIkido is inclusive of alot of things and it is complete.

The reality of this concept depends on the teacher and his/her own limitations.

The problem is really this simple.

When we look across the board of experienced practicioners, we have a varying degree of understanding, paradigms, standards, and abilities.

We have the "Art" thing and the "Conceptual" thing (and wearing the hakama) down.

What we don't have is the science nailed down.

I have recently enrolled in ACSM's Health Fitness Specialst program to become a "Certified Personal Trainer"...more specifically a HFS. I have also researched the Registered Yoga Teacher (RYT) credentialing process as well (just for research...not for my own qualification).

In both these programs the common theme is developing teaching skills and a system for conveying and transmitting information to students. They are systematic and work of "western" concepts of Assessment, evaluation, teaching, prescription. (not necessarily in that order).

All quality systems and programs I have experienced out in the world work this way and no it is not all about taking your money for a fancy title.

Alot of what Mike does really falls in line with this type of thinking. He has put in lots of years in trial and error. He has figured out what seems to work for him and he has attempt to distill it down into a system of exercises, evaluation, and assessment that are really universal and void of alot of the "art" aspects.

The smart guy sees this for what it is. Says "Thank you" for spending insane time and money on doing this and takes from it what they can and drives on.

If you don't understand physics and it applications, no martial art is going to work properly for you. You really have to understand Aikido for it to work at its maximum potential- and that is true for Tai Chi, Chi Gong and other CMA. That doesn't happen over night because Aikido is an art.

There are a couple of different levels of "Understanding Physics". Mainly Tacit and Implicit. We are born with a certain implicit understanding of physics since we are all affected by the laws of it and we have to learn to walk. We certainly learn act well before we can even identifiy who Sir Issac Newton was and his importance to describing why it is that we learned to walk and why we fall down when we lose our balance.

So again, when you say "Understand Aikido" that is a huge topic both Tacitly and Implicitly.

I have run into guys in other kinestic professions that have a implicit understanding of many of the principles that are involved in aikido and they have never even heard of it outside of a Seagal movie!

I do agree that it doesn't happen overnight because it is an Art. That is very true. This is my criticism of how we do things. If we continue with the haphazard approach of methodology learning this stuff will take a long time with a very high failure rate of folks obtaining the skills.

No one is talking about changing the Art or the Scope of the Art. SImply about improving the instructors that are teaching, providing better tools, methodology to evaluate, teach, and transmit the same concepts.

There is much room for improvement in the "Science" of what we do.

aikilouis
08-02-2009, 07:58 AM
So, would it then be outside the realm for an aikido teacher to fix the swing of a baseball player?

Thanks,
Adam

There was a very famous precedent in Japan.
(see A Zen Way of Baseball, by Sadaharu Oh & David Falkner)

Upyu
08-02-2009, 08:17 AM
Erle Montaigue, Robert Chuckrow, Peter Ralston, Bruce Lee, and all the other on the Barn's and Noble book shelf, and YouTube.

You're not serious...including Bruce Lee in that quote
Dude, his teacher Yip Man may have had Kokyu-ryoku/Jin skills (my guess is he did)...but Bruce? :D

Your above quote basically destroys any credibility in the eyes of anyone that has some "skills" dude. Not to be harsh, just calling it like I see it.

oisin bourke
08-02-2009, 09:49 AM
There was a very famous precedent in Japan.
(see A Zen Way of Baseball, by Sadaharu Oh & David Falkner)

Oh credits his success at batsmanship to Kochi Tohei. There's footage of Oh practicing while standing on one leg. Learned from Tohei.
I suspect Ichiro learned something interesting from someone.

That's all I have to say...

Buck
08-02-2009, 11:56 AM
Buck wrote:

Buck, I think the disconnect with us on this issue is you are combining two different things. The conceptual idea of "Aikido" at the Macro level with the Actual practice.

If you separate the two out I think it makes things much easier to discuss.

Conceptually I would agree that the Vision of AIkido is inclusive of alot of things and it is complete.


Wow... Kevin, we just enter a whole new thread. You put up some thought provoking and interesting ideas, I would love to discuss, but we need to discuss it as other thread. We than are able to really focus on what you said. I would be more than happy to discuss all that stuff.

We need to stick to the thread, and currently we are on the verge of going off of it any way. :)

I am taking a risk in GOFT (going off topic) with what I am about to say. Aikido is about the journey and not the finish line. To understand it is a process over-time.

We can take the physics of Aikido (what ever they are) and see they are universal and applicable to different things. But the challenge is to do it in the framework that defines it as being Aikido and not baseball.

Understanding Aikido isn't easy. It is a difficult art. As we know we the dynamics of Aikido are complex. Are challenge is to neutralize aggressive and resistant human and natural forces, manipulate the human body in a way that allows us to throw someone 100 to 300 lbs against the structure of the human body that defies the common sense and human experience. All from a defensive position.

So of course, when people see others (Aikidoka) preform such feats and they can't, they naturally will question their ability, their instruction, and the art. But, very few question their understanding and comprehension as the fault to their inability and then try to correct that. Even if you have a poor instructor, a person can get around that by putting in the effort to understanding and comprehending the art better. Isn't that how many martial artists of old did it. In the CMA tradition is was the studying of creatures fighting that led to a better understanding and comprehension.

When people say, is their something missing in Aikido, I think does that question arise because of their perspective, understanding and comprehension. Are they not seeing the complete picture, like the entire scope and dynamic of it. And as a result lacking confidence in their abilities, which leads them to out-sourcing?

And the people they go to, as out-sources, themselves have a complete scope of understanding and comprehension of Aikido. To kill two birds with one stone- See, if I was a serious baseball player who wanted to improve my swing or fix batting problems, I would go to a baseball batting coach, or get tips from a better batter on my team- who would understand my issues, and not a cricket player. And like wise, for a baseball pitcher too. That is how it commonly works. If not, then you would not have the need for such experienced coaches for the team. They would all be flocking to the local Karate dojo or hockey rink or what have you. This is true for any profession as well. What if we had surgeons who needed to improve their skills signed on to butcher shops. Well am digressing to that OFT world where the examples are scrutinize and I am silly enough to defend that.

To wrap this stuff up in a nut shell-
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing. Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

Sorry Kevin for going off what you said on to another tangent.

:)

mathewjgano
08-02-2009, 12:43 PM
Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

Sorry Kevin for going off what you said on to another tangent.

:)

:D Well, being that I like tangents...and jumping in midway on conversations...
I look at learning in terms of finding what is similar in otherwise dissimilar things. I might go to someone who plays the chromatic harmonica to see what they do to the notes themselves, which then leaves me the task of learning how to bend my guitar string to match that quality. It might be better to go to BB King, but once you've figured out what a guitar is and developed the feel for the neck and how to fret, you can at least begin to emulate some things on your own. It's never as good as training with a master, but when all you've got is a paper clip, some gum, and a shoestring, you gotta MacGuyver it!
...FWIW:D
Cheers!

Kevin Leavitt
08-02-2009, 12:55 PM
Buck wrote:

When people say, is their something missing in Aikido, I think does that question arise because of their perspective, understanding and comprehension. Are they not seeing the complete picture, like the entire scope and dynamic of it. And as a result lacking confidence in their abilities, which leads them to out-sourcing?

Well if you can show me one teacher that has the complete picture please point me to him/her! Seriously.

Maybe you see the complete picture and can teach the complete range of all that is inclusive? Do you? If so, please let me know and I will find a way to come train with you. I am not being patronizing or sarcastic. I mean it in the most sincere way.

If we could obtain everything within one paradigm or modality then we would do that, it certainly makes life alot easier and it cost alot less time and money. Heck I have to visit several different dojos, work under several different promotion systems and pay fees, go to seminars and all that. So if you have a better way please show me!

So of course, when people see others (Aikidoka) preform such feats and they can't, they naturally will question their ability, their instruction, and the art. But, very few question their understanding and comprehension as the fault to their inability and then try to correct that. Even if you have a poor instructor, a person can get around that by putting in the effort to understanding and comprehending the art better. Isn't that how many martial artists of old did it. In the CMA tradition is was the studying of creatures fighting that led to a better understanding and comprehension.


Well my decision making criteria is pretty simple. If I see someone doing something I ask them "how do you do that", or "what do I need to do to learn that". If they tell me well, there is a good Tai Chi teacher that I study with that can fix this problem for you...well this is what I would do. Masters of old did the same. It is how we learn. Heck the Japanese built their whole industrial base out of stealing ideas and innovations from others, this is not something new or outside the context of our Aikido Paradigm.

And the people they go to, as out-sources, themselves have a complete scope of understanding and comprehension of Aikido. To kill two birds with one stone- See, if I was a serious baseball player who wanted to improve my swing or fix batting problems, I would go to a baseball batting coach, or get tips from a better batter on my team- who would understand my issues, and not a cricket player.

Well the reality of it is that they do go to outside sources for help. The really good ones do. Recommend reading Josh Waitzkins book on the "Art of Learning" that sums up his process for learning how to become one of the best chess players in the world as well as a champion at push hands.

Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing. Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?


It is an individual path for all of us. Each of us forms our own (or should) set of criteria and measures of success/performance and self evalutation. We then should surround ourselves with friends, family, and peer, and mentors that provide us with an external perspective of constructive feedback and evaluation.

We have to constantly reassess what we are doing and constantly be looking HONESTLY as possible at ourselves.

The problem arises when we take "the grass is always greener" approach and skip around to various methodologies, schools, modalities or what not and make excuses for ourselves and the reason we are not getting better. This usually translates into, "well, it is somebody's elses fault".

As long as we keep that in mind, I think the best thing we can do is to continually educate ourselves and expand our understanding. It is my hope and I think it is natural that our students outgrow the boundaries of our dojo and look beyond it if we are going to have a healthy system.

My experiences outside aikido, ironically have strengthened my understanding of aikido, made me understand what it can and cannot do for us, and has grown me closer to what I consider to be an authentic practice and I have a greater passion for it now than I did before.

Buck, this is not off topic, but actually right on I believe.

Buck
08-02-2009, 01:45 PM
Buck wrote:

Well if you can show me one teacher that has the complete picture please point me to him/her! Seriously.

Maybe you see the complete picture and can teach the complete range of all that is inclusive? Do you? If so, please let me know and I will find a way to come train with you. I am not being patronizing or sarcastic. I mean it in the most sincere way.


That is a good point, it directs us to think then who does, who can? If the guy in the art can't, then what leads us to believe the out-source guy is any different, isn't he just using a different presentation?

That is why I said Aikido is a journey, an art, a process of development. It is best to stay inside that scope because what else is out there, well is it really any different?

Kevin, I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to take the direction they wish. We aren't talking religion here, and no one is going to hell for what they believe. :) I would seriously like to discuss all your comments on a thread that is about that. That wasn't a slight, it was an honest thing. That is because there is layers to what you say based on your goals, needs and demands from your perspective of studying martial arts. Which are different then mine, based primarily on the fact that I study Aikido purely from a non-martial platform. For me it is a hobby, in comparison. So mine needs,requirements, and applications are not as demanding as yours. :)

Buck
08-02-2009, 01:46 PM
:D ...FWIW:D
Cheers!

Matt, you always seem to crack me up, with stuff like that. :D

Kevin Leavitt
08-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Buck wrote:

That is a good point, it directs us to think then who does, who can? If the guy in the art can't, then what leads us to believe the out-source guy is any different, isn't he just using a different presentation?

He may or may not be different. It depends on your criteria for evaluation of the problem at hand.

If I am trying to the ability to become "immovable" to certain forces and or vectors...then just like in any scientific experiment we can frame the controls and conditions around which we can test and evaluate those things. Ki Society has devote a large part of their practice in doing just that. Once we have defined the "test", well then we have a consistent pattern of inputs and outputs that can now be measured and evaluated.

So, that said, we can judge now how well the guy from outside the art can do these things. I'd say if he can demonstrate them well, then he has something to offer, if not then forget it and move on. If the guy inside the art can't do it, then it is more than warranted to look elsewhere.

The problem is, many of us can't agree on or even understand what we are doing or what the performance measures should look like. There is alot of bad stuff out there getting passed off as aikido, tai chi, and even Yoga.

In recent years, thanks in no small part to the internet, a bunch of folks have been able to fix alot of this.

Kevin, I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and a right to take the direction they wish. We aren't talking religion here, and no one is going to hell for what they believe. I would seriously like to discuss all your comments on a thread that is about that. That wasn't a slight, it was an honest thing. That is because there is layers to what you say based on your goals, needs and demands from your perspective of studying martial arts. Which are different then mine, based primarily on the fact that I study Aikido purely from a non-martial platform. For me it is a hobby, in comparison. So mine needs,requirements, and applications are not as demanding as yours.


Why do you assume they are different? Sure we come maybe from a different set of experiences and backgrounds. That is always different between any two people. My "applications" in aikido are probably pretty similar to yours at the core.

Things such as getting out of a chair when I am 80 years old, reducing the amount of physical, mental and spiritual sufferng as we grow older and change, being able to turn a screw driver, those kind of things are what I think are most important.

Sure, I come from a military and martial background that is maybe more direct in application on body skills, but at the base, it is really not much different.

IMO, we should be evaluating things exactly the same. Philosophically and otherwise. Don't assume that they would be different based on external issues.

Buck
08-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Buck wrote:

Sure we come maybe from a different set of experiences and backgrounds. That is always different between any two people. My "applications" in aikido are probably pretty similar to yours at the core.



I have a different purpose and stuff for training in Aikido, which is different from yours. Mine isn't military, and I am not military minded, or have the same purpose for martial arts as the military. I am not instructing any military personnel, either. I understand where you are coming from because of your purpose and background and all of that. The decisions and perspectives you take are based on that. That is all I am saying. :)

And it is true our applications in the dojo when training are pretty similar as the core, sure. I don't disgaree with that. But, I am not training soldiers for the battle field mentally or physicially. I don't have that responsibility. :)

Buck
08-02-2009, 08:43 PM
To wrap this stuff up in a nut shell-
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing.

Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

I think with Aikido all the principles are their, and the scope and dynamic (as defined and detailed previous) isn't missing anything. If something is missing it is on the individual, and not the art. Therefore it is up to the individual to fix it.

We all have a choice and depending on our background and stuff, we make a decision, A) do we out-source (as previously explained) or B) go to the batting coach for help (as previously explained)

That is a personal decision, not a decision applicable to everybody. Aikido isn't an religion trying to convert the unbelievers and all that. And if you don't believe something you aren't going to hell for it, you shouldn't be called a heretic or a martyr that was burned at the stake and all that.

Aikido isn't lacking it has been develop based on arts that where field tested for centuries, it has a solid framework, but it is the individual that hasn't. As people, doing an Aikido, it takes time to develop and refine skills that is in the framework of the art. It's not quick-fixes and skipping around to this and that, I think based on other such learning experiences like music.

If you really want to do Aikido than do it. That is the challenge, you either take it or not, that is up to you. It's all IMO and FWIW. :)

Kevin Leavitt
08-02-2009, 08:56 PM
I have a different purpose and stuff for training in Aikido, which is different from yours. Mine isn't military, and I am not military minded, or have the same purpose for martial arts as the military. I am not instructing any military personnel, either. I understand where you are coming from because of your purpose and background and all of that. The decisions and perspectives you take are based on that. That is all I am saying. :)

And it is true our applications in the dojo when training are pretty similar as the core, sure. I don't disgaree with that. But, I am not training soldiers for the battle field mentally or physicially. I don't have that responsibility. :)

You are making huge assumptions about my study of aikido and motivations to study it. Your assumptions are completely wrong.

Erick Mead
08-02-2009, 09:58 PM
But, I am not training soldiers for the battle field mentally or physicially. I don't have that responsibility. :)If not, then I would raise a serious question. It is a martial art -- an art of war. What else would you be training them for?

What you DO with the training is another thing, but what one trains FOR must be with the same eye toward warfare, or it is not really a martial art. Whether one is doing battle on the spiritual planes or on this mundane one it is no less a battle, in either case.

Buck
08-02-2009, 10:29 PM
You are making huge assumptions about my study of aikido and motivations to study it. Your assumptions are completely wrong.

Kevin, if what is on your webpage isn't accurate or that in many of your posts, then I have made huge assumptions. In that case, apologies are then in order. :)

Shouldn't we really stay on topic.

Buck
08-02-2009, 10:46 PM
To wrap this stuff up in a nut shell-
Do you out-source what you think your missing in Aikido, and work within the framework of the out-source? Or do you dig deeper to understand what you are missing within the framework of what your doing.

Do you go (thinking there is something missing- parallels with the topic) to a blues guitarist, thinking to learn how to bend and overbend on a Chromatic Harmonica?

I think with Aikido all the principles are their, and the scope and dynamic (as defined and detailed previous) isn't missing anything. If something is missing it is on the individual, and not the art. Therefore it is up to the individual to fix it.

We all have a choice and depending on our background and stuff, we make a decision, A) do we out-source (as previously explained) or B) go to the batting coach for help (as previously explained)

That is a personal decision, not a decision applicable to everybody. Aikido isn't an religion trying to convert the unbelievers and all that. And if you don't believe something you aren't going to hell for it, you shouldn't be called a heretic or a martyr that was burned at the stake and all that.

Aikido isn't lacking it has been develop based on arts that where field tested for centuries, it has a solid framework, but it is the individual that hasn't. As people, doing an Aikido, it takes time to develop and refine skills that is in the framework of the art. It's not quick-fixes and skipping around to this and that, I think based on other such learning experiences like music.

If you really want to do Aikido than do it. That is the challenge, you either take it or not, that is up to you. It's all IMO and FWIW. :)

BTW, Kevin, this wasn't addressed to you and I appologize for that error.

Buck
08-02-2009, 10:50 PM
Kevin, if what is on your webpage isn't accurate or that in many of your posts, then I have made huge assumptions. In that case, apologies are then in order. :)

Shouldn't we really stay on topic.

Too all: I was too late to delete this. Due to a possible misunderstanding, I think apologies are in order. Not to further any uncomfortablities and misunderstandings am dropping out of the thread. :)

Buck
08-02-2009, 11:01 PM
Too all: I was too late to delete this. Due to a possible misunderstanding, I think apologies are in order. Not to further any uncomfortablities and misunderstandings am dropping out of the thread. :)

JIC, I am the one making the apologies!

rob_liberti
08-02-2009, 11:14 PM
I wonder if the aikido folks who attended Dan's workshop agree with Buck. I think the answer to: is IT missing in aikido? is: Not anymore.

Rob

Buck
08-02-2009, 11:53 PM
Your sucking me in.....:)

Rob,

Where there any notable, well respected, Shi-hans of any country of such top Aikido organization at the seminar? Did they say what Dan had was it?Has any recognized top Aikido organization put him at the top, recognized him as having it? Or any well respected and recognized martial arts organization recognized Dan as having it?

Is he the only one with it?

rob_liberti
08-03-2009, 12:15 AM
Buck,

#1 - "I don't look to authority for truth, I look to truth for authority" It seems like that you and I have opposite view points on that.

#2 - Why does he have to be put at the top of an organization? I'm not sure it would be possible. Can non-Japanese become shihan anymore?

#3 - There was 1 very well respected for superior aikido ability - shihan level - person at the seminar, and he said everything he needed to say by showing up, and no you don't get to ask who and get an answer. There were also the number 1 and number 2 people in the world at a karate/jujitsu system there making the same statement. All 3 of those people had 40+ years in martial arts and are considered top instructors.

#4 - Why don't you just consider the possibility that maybe you are wrong in your desire for there to not be anything missing in aikido and actually go see for yourself?

Rob

Buck
08-03-2009, 12:40 AM
Buck,

#1 - "I don't look to authority for truth, I look to truth for authority" It seems like that you and I have opposite view points on that.

#2 - Why does he have to be put at the top of an organization? I'm not sure it would be possible. Can non-Japanese become shihan anymore?

#3 - There was 1 very well respected for superior aikido ability - shihan level - person at the seminar, and he said everything he needed to say by showing up, and no you don't get to ask who and get an answer. There were also the number 1 and number 2 people in the world at a karate/jujitsu system there making the same statement. All 3 of those people had 40+ years in martial arts.

#4 - Why don't you just consider the possibility that maybe you are wrong in your desire for there to not be anything missing in aikido and actually go see for yourself?

Rob

I am just trying to establish who recognizes that he has it, and what their credentials are. I am looking for the professional recognition, you know like in industry and the professional world, the product testing, and all that, that backs it all up-. You got the picture. I am just looking for the normal expected stuff like that. You got testimonials, that is good, but it just can't stop there.

Were any top notable recognized Shi-hans from any such organization saying it was it, and having Dan lead their schools? Was there an official military representative on the behalf of the military combative programs there giving their seal of approval as it? Was the World Book of Records there saying he had it. Who was there, by name, that said that was it?

Now was it Simon, Paula, or Randy who said he was it- kidding, it's the beer. :) The stuff up above I being serious.

jss
08-03-2009, 04:27 AM
I am just trying to establish who recognizes that he has it, and what their credentials are. I am looking for the professional recognition, you know like in industry and the professional world, the product testing, and all that, that backs it all up-.
Why trust the word of professionals? They are wrong sometimes.
What if Dan can reproduce most (if not all) of the demonstrations of body skills that O-Sensei did: grounding a push while seated, the jo trick, having someone push on his knee and bounce them off, etc.
You could still argue that Dan would be using different skills that just happen to produce the same results, but you won't have the issue of presentation you mentioned in post #447 of this thread.

And about that post #477, how about answering Kevin's question about which teachers do have the complete picture? And what are the credentials of these teachers? How can we know they do indeed have the 'it' some people feel is missing in most aikido?

rob_liberti
08-03-2009, 06:40 AM
I am just trying to establish who recognizes that he has it, and what their credentials are. I am looking for the professional recognition, you know like in industry and the professional world, the product testing, and all that, that backs it all up-. You got the picture. I am just looking for the normal expected stuff like that. You got testimonials, that is good, but it just can't stop there.

Were any top notable recognized Shi-hans from any such organization saying it was it, and having Dan lead their schools? Was there an official military representative on the behalf of the military combative programs there giving their seal of approval as it? Was the World Book of Records there saying he had it. Who was there, by name, that said that was it?

No that's not true. You are obviously not JUST trying to establish who recognizes that he has IT, etc... You are trying to suggest that because no authority figure you recognize so far says he or any other has IT, that IT is not missing in aikido. And, as I have said: #1 - "I don't look to authority for truth, I look to truth for authority" It seems like that you and I have opposite view points on that.

You see, how I determine what's what, I consider:

I've written this before:

For aikido, I would evaluate someone by questions like:
Can you do ikkyo without pushing?
Can you do iriminage without pulling?
Can you do shihonage without lifting?
(At the time, this was meant to be in terms of uke's without internal skills of course)

I do not know many people in any style of aikido who can do those things. But that is how I evaluated if people have "*it* in aikido before I knew anything about the internal skills I've been focused on lately.

For internal skills I want to know:
Can you deliver force without committing weight?
Can you move freely without your balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel?
Are the hips driving your power or not? (added by Mark Murray)
How long did it take you to develop such things?

I suppose, IF the internal skills I am describing are *the* answer to how I evaluate someone in aikido, then pretty much almost no one has *it*.

IF there are other ways to do those things I listed as what I think is important in aikido devoid of internal skills, then I'm actually good with that. But I'd like to feel it myself. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. :)

Does this mean that people who do not measure up to *my* criteria are invalid or whatever? - no, it just means that *I* probably won't travel to try to learn from them. Everyone gets to decide for them selves.

Personally, I'm doing okay on this list of my own criteria to determine who has IT, myself. (I cannot yet move freely without my balance being vulnerable to pushes and pulls on the line from anus to navel, but I'm working on that one.) But I can do most of that list remarkably better than most aikido people I have ever met, and I've only been training with Dan for under 3 years. Am I sure that O-sensei could do everything on that list, yeah, pretty sure. :)

And Buck, I think the other point you here is that the aikido people who attended Dan's seminar - THEY felt the recognized shihan in aikido and have a pretty good idea of what's what.

Rob

dps
08-03-2009, 06:46 AM
What if Dan can reproduce most (if not all) of the demonstrations of body skills that O-Sensei did: grounding a push while seated, the jo trick, having someone push on his knee and bounce them off, etc.


Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

David

rob_liberti
08-03-2009, 06:53 AM
Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

Those are representative of skills (and the list of skills I suggested) that can be used in every technique. And THE fact that you are suggesting that these are not found in aikido techniques suggest that IT is missing in pretty much Everybody's aikido...:rolleyes:

Rob

gdandscompserv
08-03-2009, 06:53 AM
Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

David
umm...all of them.

dps
08-03-2009, 07:06 AM
umm...all of them.

umm.... Okay when doing ikkyo where do you do "bouncing off the knees" like O'Sensei demonstrated? A video would be helpful.

David

rob_liberti
08-03-2009, 07:25 AM
umm.... Okay when doing ikkyo where do you do "bouncing off the knees" like O'Sensei demonstrated? A video would be helpful.

David

The body skills being used to LIFT them up and bounce them off his knee MIGHT just be the same skills that he used to lift people up off their balance when attacking shomen to do his ikkyo. Maybe he wasn't just pushing their arm to the uke's elbow with muscle strength... Look at ANY of his videos. Steve Wonder could see it. :)
Rob

stan baker
08-03-2009, 07:33 AM
How to develope Aiki in a step by step process is what is missing in Aikido, this is the main point.

stan

jss
08-03-2009, 07:55 AM
Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?
Are you asking out of curiosity or because you believe these abilities are not part of aikido? If the former, Rob has answered that. If the latter, O-Sensei demonstrating these abilities on uchi-deshi in what is clearly an Aikio setting, should make it obvious enough.

Kevin Leavitt
08-03-2009, 08:08 AM
Your sucking me in.....:)

Rob,

Where there any notable, well respected, Shi-hans of any country of such top Aikido organization at the seminar? Did they say what Dan had was it?Has any recognized top Aikido organization put him at the top, recognized him as having it? Or any well respected and recognized martial arts organization recognized Dan as having it?

Is he the only one with it?

Most of the Shihans are what? well into their 60s and 70s now right? I think most of them would probably not have too much motivation to do so for a number of reasons. Also if you spend some time actually paying attention to what guys like Ellis Amdur and Peter Goldsbury talk about...well it gives you a pretty good idea of alot of the cultural issues surrounding teaching and transmission. At least a big "Ah Hah" goes off for me.

I know in my own Organization (ASU) that many of Saotome's Senior students (5 and 6th Dans) that are essentially intrusted with carrying forward the next generation have been pretty open to look externally for new ways to look at things.

It is not that they feel anything is missing from the art, necessarily, but maybe in their own skills and abilities? Understanding what Aikido should look and feel like has allowed them to be accepting of these "outside" teachers and influences I believe.

All I know is that guys I know, trust, and respect are positive about this and we are benefiting from it. I can tell you from my limited exposure, that I too have benefited.

Kevin Leavitt
08-03-2009, 08:19 AM
Where in Aikido does these abilities come into play. What technique uses "grounding a push while seated", bouncing people off your knees or the jo trick?

David

David, actually you bring up a very valid question! I have really struggled hard with this one as well. In fact when I first started engaging Mike Sigman and Dan Harden here on AIkiweb alot of my friction with them centered around this point...that is...over application.

It really took me a while to figure out where this fit in for me as being "useful".

To me it is all relative. You could also ask the same question of Aikido. Where does any of this stuff come into play in helping us learn effective martial skills?

As with anything I think there is a balance that needs to be obtained. Finding out several years ago that I really could not fight very well even though I had about 12 years experience of TMA under my belt, I dove into BJJ and MMA, then in the last 2 years Judo. Spent 5 years learning lots of new things and I am at a level of comfort with my skills.

Turning 44 and trying to get to the next level in BJJ (Brown and Black Belt) has been very frustrating. I have mastered alot of the rote skills needed, but lack the strength, conditioning, and flexibility to get there.

So now I am looking at the so called "internal" training, doing yoga, and really working hard on my core while avoiding things that are causing me injuries. I am finding that this type of training has it's place and is helping me.

It does not take the place of waza or randori...I still do those things as well....maybe not as much.

Doing Shikkyo, connected breathing, stretching (not the normal kind, but full body kind), working on this kinda thing is starting to work for me some. Not sure how well I am doing "internally" probably not so well at all....but I am feeling stronger and better in my body.

That is my experiences on this and where I see it fitting in!

The Jo test and all that other stuff...well I simply see those things as measures of progression or assessment of what I need to work on. It gives us a framework to reference. That is all...not very useful in acutal waza or training.

dps
08-03-2009, 08:31 AM
In the following the bold type and parenthesis is mine.

From an interview with Koichi Tohei by William Reed of Central Florida Aikikai.

"After I first went to Hawaii in 1953, I went back many times to teach on each of the islands, as well as the mainland. When I returned to a dojo, I often found that people couldn't remember or agree on what I had taught them before. It seemed that many of the Aikido arts were very difficult to do, particularly when working with different partners. I then created and taught a set of Aiki Taiso, or exercises that you could do by yourself, which used the basic movements of the Aikido techniques.".....................

"Even beginners were able to coordinate mind and body (aiki), and be very stable when tested after doing the same movement twice."..........................

"Of course Ki principles can apply to any martial art, even to sports, dancing, or other forms of exercise. There are four basic principles: Keep One Point, Relax Completely, Keep Weight Underside, Extend Ki. None of these is restricted to Aikido, and in fact all can be applied to anything you do in daily life. I taught these basic principles to baseball professional Sadaharu Oh, and he broke the world record for home runs. The basic principles of the universe apply to anything you do. The reason people get poor results is because they try to go against natural principles. If you remember the principles and apply them subconsciously, they work for you every time. However, people have the bad habit of forgetting the fundamentals as soon as they make a bit of progress. That is why you need to keep training."

David

dps
08-03-2009, 08:40 AM
The Jo test and all that other stuff...well I simply see those things as measures of progression or assessment of what I need to work on. It gives us a framework to reference. That is all...not very useful in acutal waza or training.

I agree. They an are indication of what Tohei called the coordination of mind and body ( internal aiki). But the jo trick, head push, etc are not in any techniques that I have practiced or seen practiced in Aikido.

David

Kevin Leavitt
08-03-2009, 09:48 AM
Yea they are not done too much in my system of study either I don't believe. One of my Aikido teachers studied Uechi Ryu Karate and we did a fair amount of sanchin kata in which he would use many of these things to develop the frame work. Didn't really understand it at the time, but thinking back I understand it a bit more these days.

Also, a few of our instructors are now doing more of this kind of thing in our practice now which I think is good.

The hard part I think is that many of our students grow impatient with this type of training (they came to do "aikido", not this) and you have to balance it with Waza and Randori. The other thing is I personally don't think it will take or develop unless you are practicing it or conditioning your body solo outside the dojo...which is also difficult when you don't really feel like it is working for you.

I had a hard time wanting to do solo work. One it was boring not fun. Two, It is hard to see the reasons immediately for dong it. Three, it is hard to learn it and feel like you are doing it right. Four, you simply sometimes feel stupid when you are doing it.

Once you tilt the scales in the other direction though, I think it becomes easier to want to do it and you start seeing some pay off...then it becomes worthwile and you do it.

Pat Togher
08-03-2009, 10:46 AM
Oh credits his success at batsmanship to Kochi Tohei. There's footage of Oh practicing while standing on one leg. Learned from Tohei.
I suspect Ichiro learned something interesting from someone.

That's all I have to say...

Wouldn't surprise me, either. I was at an M's game Tuesday - Ichiro has a remarkable physical presence at the plate. You can nearly feel his kime in the stands.

Pat

Pat Togher
08-03-2009, 11:16 AM
oops. Sorry for getting off track! Should have finished reading the latest in the thread before responding.

Pat

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-03-2009, 02:40 PM
umm.... Okay when doing ikkyo where do you do "bouncing off the knees" like O'Sensei demonstrated? A video would be helpful.

David

Wow...

I haven't used the term troll in quite a few years, but...

David,

In an effort to encourage you to raise the level of discourse I really need to say the following:

Regardless of the sincerity with which you come to the forums, there comes a point in time where just questioning everything in the manner indicated in some/many of your recent posts will cause those interested in meaningful discourse (at least) along with those who may actually provide a positive influence on you to back away from you entirely.

In simple-speak, the way in which your questions come across is that you are either 12 or have a learning disorder, or the like. I am not criticizing you should either be the case. However I simply refuse to believe that you are unable to process the information, so that leaves your motivations up for question.

Seriously man, catch up! If you can't, and even if you don't want to, reach out and find someone who will help you either see the points being made, improve your aikido/martial paradigm so that you can see the points being made, or at the very least persuade you from continuing to devalue the conversation by repeatedly questioning with Why? or How?

Best in training to you and all...

PS - Web_nostalgia=Do_not_feed_the_trolls

.

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 03:06 PM
The body skills being used to LIFT them up and bounce them off his knee MIGHT just be the same skills that he used to lift people up off their balance when attacking shomen to do his ikkyo. Maybe he wasn't just pushing their arm to the uke's elbow with muscle strength... Look at ANY of his videos. Steve Wonder could see it. :) I agree -- obvious, when you see what you are looking at. And so its name is not muscular strength. Then what is its name?

Not a label like "skills" or "internal strength" -- a name that calls it what it is and relates it by name to other things of the same family.

"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right name."

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 03:11 PM
I agree. They an are indication of what Tohei called the coordination of mind and body (internal aiki). But the jo trick, head push, etc are not in any techniques that I have practiced or seen practiced in Aikido. Actually the essence of the jo trick and the head push are exactly the same -- and are contained in the tai no henko. When pushed -- make a tangent.

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-03-2009, 03:13 PM
"The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right name."Actually, it pays to point out that the beginning of wisdom, as you call it was the end of knowledge.

Let's face it, no one needs to know the name of kindness or love to know when it is present. Just as surely, one most certainly knows without being told when it is absent. Conversely, one can talk about kindness and love all day long and still not manifest its presence.

Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

.

Ron Tisdale
08-03-2009, 03:16 PM
Yikes... :eek:

Good call Shaun. ;)

Erik...if you call it what it is (ki skills) people roll their eyes and make whoowhoo sounds. :D At least in my experience.

That (and other parts of this discussion) is why I really am getting to the point of ignoring most of this...

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman
08-03-2009, 03:20 PM
Actually the essence of the jo trick and the head push are exactly the same -- and are contained in the tai no henko. When pushed -- make a tangent.So how is "make a tangent" a better description than "skills" or "internal strength"? Didn't you just say:
Not a label like "skills" or "internal strength" -- a name that calls it what it is and relates it by name to other things of the same family.

Besides, I don't agree with your analysis. I think you're leaving out something very important.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 04:34 PM
Yikes... :eek:

Good call Shaun. ;)

Erik...if you call it what it is (ki skills) people roll their eyes and make whoowhoo sounds. :D At least in my experience. But I have said my piece on that one: http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/but-why-7854/physical-theory-of-ki-a-dialogue-3404/

I don't disagree that that is a correct name. But only in the context in which it was developed or is used consistently for the same thing. That is where the breakdown has occurred... not everybody uses that terminology for the same thing -- and it has lost its intended concrete reference.

The reason is not nefarious -- we have a different context, and it would make sense to name it in our context -- and a correct name out of context is just another label -- which comes perilously close to becoming a facile marketing-speak ..

"X-power Skill" --- "New and improved! Now with Ki-Enhanced Phosphorene Complex!! -- for Added Strength!". :p (offernotgoodinNewJerseyorIdaho)

dps
08-03-2009, 04:38 PM
Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

Knowledge is being aware that fire can burn;
wisdom is remembering the blister.
A person without wisdom will
always get burned.

David

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 04:41 PM
So how is "make a tangent" a better description than "skills" or "internal strength"? Didn't you just say:
As descriptions go -- for one thing it is specific and functional.

Besides, I don't agree with your analysis. I think you're leaving out something very important.
Well, that was the question posed, but by all means, let us leave nothing out. ;) "Charlie don't surf."

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-03-2009, 04:41 PM
Knowledge is being aware that fire can burn;
wisdom is remembering the blister.
A person without wisdom will
always get burned.

David

and...

Scars speak for themselves, David

.

Mike Sigman
08-03-2009, 04:53 PM
As descriptions go -- for one thing it is specific and functional.
So, if someone asked (according to your theory) Ueshiba how he did the head trick or jo trick, an answer of "make a tangent" would be specific and functional enough for someone to learn from? Frankly, I don't think it would shed much light specifically or functionally. Using terms like "tangent", "angular momentum", "shear", and so on are actually broadly general terminology, not specific or explicative in any helpful sense.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 04:56 PM
Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.

I wonder, is it wise to try to transcend even a weak wisdom using an unattainable knowledge? :D

Kevin Leavitt
08-03-2009, 04:58 PM
THey don't help me. I always have to go pull out a physics book to remember the definitiions. Then I have to apply it in the context of alot of other things going on at the same time..you know...the phsyciality of the exercise. That is breathing, weight shift, balance, timing, intent and all that stuff that makes up the totality of the situation we are trying to reproduce.

Mary Eastland
08-03-2009, 05:10 PM
How to develope Aiki in a step by step process is what is missing in Aikido, this is the main point.

stan
Ki development practiced with technique provides the step by step process right along with aikido training.
Mary

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 05:11 PM
So, if someone asked (according to your theory) Ueshiba how he did the head trick or jo trick, an answer of "make a tangent" would be specific and functional enough for someone to learn from? Frankly, I don't think it would shed much light specifically or functionally. Using terms like "tangent", "angular momentum", "shear", and so on are actually broadly general terminology, not specific or explicative in any helpful sense.
I see... It plainly lacks the clarity and dead-on, recipe quality of the terms: "internal strength" and "skills."

And no, I suspect Ueshiba would slap him, for asking. On the other hand, he advocated others doing just this sort of thing, though it was not his cup of tea, so there's my imprimatur.

It is descriptive with a precise, physically applicable, concrete meaning -- it describes functionally and points directly to several large bodies of applicable concepts, freely available -- even if does not in itself exhaust the topic.

I can come a good bit closer to the latter -- if you really wish. :)

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 05:28 PM
THey don't help me. I always have to go pull out a physics book to remember the definitions. Then I have to apply it in the context of alot of other things going on at the same time..you know...the phsyciality of the exercise. That is breathing, weight shift, balance, timing, intent and all that stuff that makes up the totality of the situation we are trying to reproduce. I am not supplanting rigorous practice with book-learning or dragging an engineering handbook on the mat. This is contemplative stuff, to do before and after to see the relationships dimly felt more objectively and hopefully more clearly. There are definable relationships in structure and dynamic that have names and precisely definable actions. They are in those books and will aid your visualization/proprioception and planning for more training.

Here I do this, on the mat I train. But they are not separate, even so. The mountain is the mountain whether in the plane looking down or in the valley looking up. The plane will help you see some routes better, though.

CitoMaramba
08-03-2009, 05:29 PM
Oh credits his success at batsmanship to Kochi Tohei. There's footage of Oh practicing while standing on one leg. Learned from Tohei.
I suspect Ichiro learned something interesting from someone.

That's all I have to say...

Yasuo Kobayashi Shihan writes a bit about Sadaharu Oh and his coach, Hiroshi Arakawa in his biography: "Aikido: My Way"
Part 5 Unforgettable Folks Section 3 Giants Coach Hiroshi Arakawa

It was about 1955, Kisshomaru Sensei introduced me to Hiroshi Arakawa saying "this man is a famous pro baseball player -- give him private lessons." He was a player who had batted over 300 in his day for the Orions. In addition to that, he was famous for having scouted Sadaharu Oh's talent when he was at Waseda. He passionately practiced Aikido everyday looking for he could take to baseball.

At that time, O Sensei said "would someone bring me two bokken?" I brought him two and we went to O Sensei's 12 mat room where he gave Mr. Arakawa one of the bokken.

"Mr. Arakawa, where does the ball come from?"

From O Sensei's martial arts perspective, the ball could come from the side or the rear.

"From the front only," replied Mr. Arakawa, who was brandishing a bat. Then in front of my eyes, O Sensei thrust the bokken in past the bat. If the bokken had been a ball you would have been hit, he said. It was in the room and O Sensei was holding back. He was lightly brandishing the bat; the bokken was steady. "Don't hold back," O Sensei said and this time, Arakawa Sensei swung with a lot of power at the bokken that had hit him and struck the bokken but the bokken didn't budge. He hit his hand and stumbled down. After that he practiced seriously until he got his first dan and wanted to introduce Aikido theory to baseball so brought along Mr. Hiraoka, Mr. Nagashima, Mr. Oh and many others to watch practice. It's well-known that Sadaharu Oh's one-legged batting style was developed by Mr. Arakawa. Neither Mr. Oh nor Mr. Nagashima ever practiced Aikido, but Mr. Hiraoka practiced once or twice a week in the off-season with us uchideshi. Since I didn't have any interest in baseball, the fact that Mr. Oh and Mr. Nagashima were coming didn't impress me much. One day after practice I got a ride in a car from Mr. Oh to Shinjuku station. I was surprised when we were surrounded by many people who recognized him.

Among my present deshi there is a woman who was a classmate of Oh's in junior high school. At a class reunion, she was talking with Mr. Oh about Aikido, he recalled me and wrote me a short note later.

http://www.cup.com/kobayashi-dojo/english/book/2_5_3.htm

Kevin Leavitt
08-03-2009, 07:53 PM
I am not supplanting rigorous practice with book-learning or dragging an engineering handbook on the mat. This is contemplative stuff, to do before and after to see the relationships dimly felt more objectively and hopefully more clearly. There are definable relationships in structure and dynamic that have names and precisely definable actions. They are in those books and will aid your visualization/proprioception and planning for more training.

Here I do this, on the mat I train. But they are not separate, even so. The mountain is the mountain whether in the plane looking down or in the valley looking up. The plane will help you see some routes better, though.

Thanks. I do understand what you are trying to do, and support it. I just don't personally find it helpful. FWIW, I am taking a Personal Trainer Certification program right now, studying Kinseology and Exercise Physiology....the science of movement and exercise, hoping to maybe better understand some things. So I do agree that there should be some level of guys like you looking hard at this in this way. I learn alot from the discourse here.

Just commenting that I don't find it very helpful in understanding this when I am doing it or trying to.

mathewjgano
08-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Let's face it, no one needs to know the name of kindness or love to know when it is present. Just as surely, one most certainly knows without being told when it is absent. Conversely, one can talk about kindness and love all day long and still not manifest its presence.

Of course talk about something is not the thing itself. However, an interesting relate might be found in a buddy of mine who once described his reaction to a feeling he got sometimes; the feeling was somewhat bewildering to him until one time he was reading about anxiety and it dawned on him that was what it was he was feeling. Sometimes having a name to call something detracts from the thing and sometimes it can help the mind connect to it in a better way. I think it depends on the person and situation.

As usual, I know this reflects more on me than anything else, but what I've taken away from this thread is that whatever It is, don't try to use physics to describe it, because unless you've got the formula complete, it's not useful to anyone (even someone who likes to think in those terms, apparently); other uncertain terms are ok though. Am I wrong in perceiving this? How so?
My feeling is that if Erick says something wrong, folks should be able to pinpoint the exact phrases and restate those phrases correctly. If the phrases aren't conclusive enough, then that's where the debate should end.

Aside:

Wisdom has its place of importance only among the unwise. Knowledge, however unattainable, transcends wisdom every time.
evileyes :D I presume this means you're wise and knowledgeable?
So, wisdom is unwise to pursue and/or the wise hold wisdom to be non-important? Wisdom, the application of knowledge to live the good life, is itself always transcended by knowledge? So the componant parts of wisdom always reach past the limitations of wisdom? Am I applying the wrong definitions? Shaun, if you have the time and desire, please PM me and fill me in on how that is so. If anything it seems to me they can transcend each other at one point or another.

rob_liberti
08-03-2009, 08:14 PM
Ki development practiced with technique provides the step by step process right along with aikido training.
Mary

A while back, I enjoyed working out with a shodan from your dojo at my Yale dojo. His name was Joel and I really liked him. I'm just saying that people training 6 months with Dan generate much much MUCH more power and have much MUCH more stability than what I felt in my friend Joel- and I'm not denigrating Joel or your school's teaching in any way. I found him to be an excellent shodan and a very good person.

So I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that there is a whole different level of IT achievable in a much shorter amount of time. The step by step approach Dan is teaching is skipping people years and years of time to develop such skills compared to what is taught at the best ki aikido schools I've encountered.

It's that whole different level of IT that is missing in aikido. I gave a bunch of examples of achievable skills. Who after training under 6 years with no prior martial skills in any aikido dojo can achieve that? None. Which is why many ho have some experience with IT are saying IT is missing in aikido.

I know you all (this is not to just Mary) have felt people with more structure and intent than average new people off the street and some elite few with more structure and intent than many muscly aikidoka. And I suspect that you think that is IT. I used to think so too. I have found that IT goes very far beyond that. What Dan shows is far far far beyond that. Dan tells us that he is just learning it, and Mike keeps reminding us that what we are experiencing (which Dan openly admits) is the tip of the iceberg. It's just that what most people think is the IT that IS in aikido is a much much much smaller tip of that iceberg at even most of the elite levels of ability within aikido.

Hope that clears it up.

Rob

rob_liberti
08-03-2009, 08:45 PM
Just to be overly clear, people training a short time with Dan surpass anything I have felt from anyone in my own dojos too (before I met Dan and started teaching IT much more effectively myself of course)

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 08:55 PM
Just to be overly clear, people training a short time with Dan surpass anything I have felt from anyone in my own dojos too (before I met Dan and started teaching IT much more effectively myself of course)Wonderful. Then it ought to be simple to describe. Shall I assume there is no lack of willingness to share perspectives? If it should be spread more widely it would be good to be able to describe it. It doesn't require physics-speak. Just think concretely, describe what you do and what happens in doing it.

Erick Mead
08-03-2009, 08:56 PM
Thanks. I do understand what you are trying to do, and support it. I just don't personally find it helpful. ... So I do agree that there should be some level of guys like you looking hard at this in this way. I learn alot from the discourse here.

Just commenting that I don't find it very helpful in understanding this when I am doing it or trying to.Cool. Takes all kinds to have full knowledge -- or wisdom, for that matter. :)