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jamie yugawa
07-19-2009, 02:10 PM
I Noticed at our dojo we dont really practice full high Ukemi , at my previous Dojo in Denver ,Colorado as soon as you a colored belt you were tossed full hard ukemi . I asked my sensei about this he stated that at large city dojos people have more stress and have more of a "tougher" Attitude ( Sorry could not think of another word to convey my expression ), and Dojos at small town areas (such as Hilo ,hi ) people are more laid back and don't have extra stress to expel. I know that it also depends on the style and the instructor of the dojo but i thought this would be and interesting subject and get some ideas from other people on this subject . Thank you .

Chris Li
07-19-2009, 04:07 PM
I Noticed at our dojo we dont really practice full high Ukemi , at my previous Dojo in Denver ,Colorado as soon as you a colored belt you were tossed full hard ukemi . I asked my sensei about this he stated that at large city dojos people have more stress and have more of a "tougher" Attitude ( Sorry could not think of another word to convey my expression ), and Dojos at small town areas (such as Hilo ,hi ) people are more laid back and don't have extra stress to expel. I know that it also depends on the style and the instructor of the dojo but i thought this would be and interesting subject and get some ideas from other people on this subject . Thank you .

People train pretty hard out in the countryside of Iwama...

Best,

Chris

ninjaqutie
07-19-2009, 05:09 PM
I live in southern oregon and the town where my dojo is, is fairly small. When you are ready to take breakfalls, you do them. We don't do them in every class and it just depends on who you work with. I mean, some people just like tossing me around harder. :)

lbb
07-19-2009, 07:42 PM
I asked my sensei about this he stated that at large city dojos people have more stress and have more of a "tougher" Attitude ( Sorry could not think of another word to convey my expression ), and Dojos at small town areas (such as Hilo ,hi ) people are more laid back and don't have extra stress to expel.

I don't know your sensei, but I'm going to venture a guess that he was yanking your chain.

Marc Abrams
07-19-2009, 09:39 PM
Jamie:

I am more concerned about working my ukemi soft rather than hard. If you can do what you practice on the mats on a concrete floor than I would say ""keep up the good work."

I let others work on looking dramatic. For me, I practice and teach being safe.

Marc Abrams

jamie yugawa
07-20-2009, 02:27 AM
Good point on the Iwama dojo !! As far as my Sensei pulling my chain you may be correct he is quite a cynical person ,although he has trained all over the United States ,I thought it was in interesting statement .All i know is i need to work on my Ukemi A LOT !! LOL

jamie yugawa
07-20-2009, 02:34 AM
I have much respect for anyone that can keep their ukemi soft it really seems to be very hard to do. Back in the 60's my dad was saying they used to practice on caynic and concrete !!! They said your ukemi had to be good or you would get seriously hurt , those guys knew how to party !! lol

Ryan Seznee
07-20-2009, 09:40 AM
I Noticed at our dojo we dont really practice full high Ukemi , at my previous Dojo in Denver ,Colorado as soon as you a colored belt you were tossed full hard ukemi . I asked my sensei about this he stated that at large city dojos people have more stress and have more of a "tougher" Attitude ( Sorry could not think of another word to convey my expression ), and Dojos at small town areas (such as Hilo ,hi ) people are more laid back and don't have extra stress to expel. I know that it also depends on the style and the instructor of the dojo but i thought this would be and interesting subject and get some ideas from other people on this subject . Thank you .

I think I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say here, because as far as I know the type of ukime is determined by the uki, not the nage. How can they toss you in hard ukemi vs soft? In my experiance, which granted is only a year and a half to date, one has the option to take hard ukemi or soft ukemi as long as you keep up with nage's movements. Even a breakfall can be soft (one of my sensei's favorate forms of ukemi happens to be a soft breakfall), it is just a matter of if you have kept up with nage to have the option of a softer landing.

Are you saying that your sensei instructs the nage not to throw as hard?

ninjaqutie
07-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Sometimes I think you have no choice but to take a breakfall. If nage doesn't let go of your arm when you are doing a forward roll or pulls back slightly, a breakfall is bound to happen. I do think that uke has a lot of control over the landing, but I wouldn't say uke has complete control over it. I do think that uke can try to make the landing softer though. I know sensei is always telling me to land softer after he throws me into a breakfall. :) Still can't figure out what he means though.... my landings feel pretty soft to me. Maybe it is my loud slapping.... who knows.

lbb
07-20-2009, 05:46 PM
Sometimes I think you have no choice but to take a breakfall.

That sounds a bit like the biker's claim that "I had to lay it down." Are you really telling me that your seniors are forcing you, someone new to aikido, to take breakfalls?

RED
07-20-2009, 06:22 PM
I don't think uke has complete control either. Maybe it is just my own lacking an uke though, but I've found myself behind in technique and have to break fall-- especially with higher ranks who frankly can do the technique fast and on point beyond my ability to keep up as an uke currently. I think break falls are important to know and practice. You will eventually need them to save your health. Break falls over all wreck your body-- that's why we practice a soft break fall, our sensei is super keen on soft ukemi over all-- either way,sometimes you have to.
I have never compared and contrasted between big city and little towns. Ukemi was a bit softer when I worked with inner state guys at a conference, but their dojo had less weekly classes and less students frankly. Most of those guys complained to me the whole time about how the only thing they do anymore i train kids for 5th kyu. 0_0

Basia Halliop
07-20-2009, 06:51 PM
I don't know... when I throw someone into a breakfall vs into a rolling technique, I don't know that I'd say that it necessarily feels to me (as nage) like I'm automatically throwing them 'harder', or more aggressively, so much as mainly differently (at a different angle or direction or holding their body differently so that their legs are out from under them, that kind of thing). I mean unless it's really more of a breakfall technique and I'm kind of modifying it by letting go of them before actually throwing, or pausing to give them a moment to step forward and adjust their body into a roll or something... And I've been thrown pretty aggressively into rolls, actually...

Not really sure, just my fairly inexperienced impression.

Janet Rosen
07-20-2009, 07:04 PM
There are dojos that historically don't do breaking highfalls (Ki Society lineage comes to mind) and techniques/projections tend to be such that they don't naturally lead to a need for a breaking highfall. At some dojos that do a lot of breaking highfalls, ukes are conditioned to specifically turn a certain way and intitiate such a fall even when there are other ways of staying connected and making another fall. Then there is the middle path that includes being able to take a nice highfall if thrown into it but nage mostly doing technique that don't require it.

gdandscompserv
07-20-2009, 08:36 PM
at my previous Dojo in Denver ,Colorado
Jamie,
Did you happen to train here?
http://www.nippon-kan.org/index2.html

rachford
07-20-2009, 10:06 PM
When we moved to a new dojo and put down extra hard mats people seemed to take fewer & fewer high falls. :eek: Also the average age of the people in the dojo (excluding the kid's class) is creeping up to 45-50. At 66 I reluctantly take at most one or two high falls a day. Just enough to keep them in my repertory when needed.

dps
07-20-2009, 10:28 PM
I don't think uke has complete control either.

A person who wants to be a good uke will practice all kinds of ukemi for all kinds of situations. You have to trust nage not to hurt you.
Once trust is built up between a nage and uke then nage takes uke's balance and controls uke. Uke has no control. Uke relies on his/hers training to land safely. Ukemi will be without thinking.
David

jamie yugawa
07-20-2009, 11:42 PM
Yeah i practiced at Nippon Kan for a year , great dojo the weapons class was excellent and TONS of yudansha . I got beat up by some great aikidoka !! lol

Ryan Seznee
07-21-2009, 08:24 AM
A person who wants to be a good uke will practice all kinds of ukemi for all kinds of situations. You have to trust nage not to hurt you.
Once trust is built up between a nage and uke then nage takes uke's balance and controls uke. Uke has no control. Uke relies on his/hers training to land safely. Ukemi will be without thinking.
David

I disagree that uke does not have controle, they just don't have a lot. If ukime was a complete lack of controle, then there would be no point in training in it. The uke always has the option of going soft or hard, in my experiance (which granted is not great), as long as they keep up with nage. If the uke falls behind in the technique and is in a bad position when thrown, they have to eather take a hard and high breakfall or injure themselves, but them falling behind in the technique is a sign of bad ukemi. If you fall behind, you loose any chance to counter or to take soft ukemi. Personally, I like ukemi better than nage because it seems to be the more active role.

dps
07-21-2009, 10:22 AM
......, as long as they keep up with nage.

I don't understand this statement.

The only control uke has is the level of commitment, speed, power and type of attack. Once uke attacks nage takes control by breaking uke's balance. There is no keeping up with nage. Nage takes the attack uke provides and returns it back to uke. Whatever happens to uke happens and uke needs to be prepared ( by lots of practice) to take whatever fall is available.

Watch the ukes in this clip and see how much control they have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXoMyD50MG0

David

ninjaqutie
07-21-2009, 10:41 AM
Are you really telling me that your seniors are forcing you, someone new to aikido, to take breakfalls?

Yes, I am telling you I have been forced to take breakfalls. Just because someone is new to aikido doesn't mean that they can't take breakfalls. If someone comes from a another style of martial arts that has experience with falls, then why wouldn't they if they thought you could handle it?

ninjaqutie
07-21-2009, 11:01 AM
Stupid thing won't let me add to my post. Haha. So here is what I was going to add. :O)

Are you telling me that if someone does koshinage and really gets their hips under you that you aren't going to do a breakfall? If I feel myself going into a breakfall, why fight it and risk getting hurt. Instead, I yield and go with the flow, relax and just take whatever ukemi is needed to land safely.

Voitokas
07-21-2009, 11:12 AM
...The only control uke has is the level of commitment, speed, power and type of attack. Once uke attacks nage takes control by breaking uke's balance. There is no keeping up with nage. Nage takes the attack uke provides and returns it back to uke. Whatever happens to uke happens and uke needs to be prepared ( by lots of practice) to take whatever fall is available...
In my experience the amount of control I have as uke is inversely correlated with the skill of the nage with whom I'm working. Taking ukemi for a 6th kyu involves some consensual reality; taking ukemi for a 6th dan sinvolves bouncing off the floor a lot.

RED
07-21-2009, 03:01 PM
I don't understand this statement.

The only control uke has is the level of commitment, speed, power and type of attack. Once uke attacks nage takes control by breaking uke's balance. There is no keeping up with nage. Nage takes the attack uke provides and returns it back to uke. Whatever happens to uke happens and uke needs to be prepared ( by lots of practice) to take whatever fall is available.

Watch the ukes in this clip and see how much control they have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXoMyD50MG0

David

I believe he is referring to the uke's connection. The uke must maintain connection with the nage. It is when the nage speeds up ahead of the uke, or the uke falls behind the rotation of his nage does a break fall occur.
An experienced uke has a lot of control I think. But a not so experienced uke can be sluggish, likewise a really poor nage will sometimes speed ahead of their uke because they aren't experienced enough to feel where their uke is and blend with their attack.

Phil Van Treese
07-21-2009, 03:44 PM
You must know all forms of ukemi. Soft, hard etc means nothing. You take the fall as it comes. In Tomiki we do soft at times, hard most of the time and roll outs a lot. Just train so that no matter what you get thrown on, you can take the fall and get up. Other than that, who cares about soft, hard or whatever???

ninjaqutie
07-21-2009, 04:03 PM
Well said Phil. :)

grondahl
07-22-2009, 03:58 AM
Why not? If really thrown (koshinage comes to mind), breakfalls are easier than rolling ukemi. Itīs standard aikido way of uke jumping into breakfalls in waza that does not require them that are a bit tricky.

That sounds a bit like the biker's claim that "I had to lay it down." Are you really telling me that your seniors are forcing you, someone new to aikido, to take breakfalls?

Ryan Seznee
07-22-2009, 09:06 AM
I don't understand this statement.

The only control uke has is the level of commitment, speed, power and type of attack. Once uke attacks nage takes control by breaking uke's balance. There is no keeping up with nage. Nage takes the attack uke provides and returns it back to uke. Whatever happens to uke happens and uke needs to be prepared ( by lots of practice) to take whatever fall is available.

David

I suppose the thing I am suggesting is level of commitment, then. Uke must never stop attacking the nage's center, this gives one more options for falls. Uke also has to keep connection, keep attacking the center, and take advatage of any chances to become Nage (not when the instructor specifically tells you not to, of course, or else the highly experianced members of the dojo would never get thrown). For instance, in an iremange from a shoman strike, the innital blend with the strike should take uke's balance, but uke should react by driving into nage's center so that they can become the nage. If they don't continue to take the other person's center, there is no point in doing an iremange because the uke would just want to back off and try another strike after the first has failed. My sensei has said that all aikido is a battle for the other person's center, and every movement of an uke's is to attack the nage's center. In this manner, uke and nage can very easily switch roles.

In refrance to our original point, choosing soft breakfalls over hard ones, if a uke keeps connection while trying to regain their balance, one can keep a lot of options open as far as falls. For instance, if you are thrown from shihonage and you let your arm get away from your head, you have to take a harder breakfall in order to catch your arm back up to your head so that you don't hurt yourself. If, in the same situation as before, you are able to keep your arm next you your head, you can take a soft breakfall (or maybe even a back roll) because your arm is not in danger and your ballance is closer to being under you.

Did that make sense or am a babbling? :hypno:

dps
07-22-2009, 09:41 AM
I suppose the thing I am suggesting is level of commitment, then. Uke must never stop attacking the nage's center, this gives one more options for falls. Uke also has to keep connection, keep attacking the center, and take advatage of any chances to become Nage (not when the instructor specifically tells you not to, of course, or else the highly experianced members of the dojo would never get thrown). For instance, in an iremange from a shoman strike, the innital blend with the strike should take uke's balance, but uke should react by driving into nage's center so that they can become the nage. If they don't continue to take the other person's center, there is no point in doing an iremange because the uke would just want to back off and try another strike after the first has failed. My sensei has said that all aikido is a battle for the other person's center, and every movement of an uke's is to attack the nage's center. In this manner, uke and nage can very easily switch roles.

In refrance to our original point, choosing soft breakfalls over hard ones, if a uke keeps connection while trying to regain their balance, one can keep a lot of options open as far as falls. For instance, if you are thrown from shihonage and you let your arm get away from your head, you have to take a harder breakfall in order to catch your arm back up to your head so that you don't hurt yourself. If, in the same situation as before, you are able to keep your arm next you your head, you can take a soft breakfall (or maybe even a back roll) because your arm is not in danger and your ballance is closer to being under you.

Did that make sense or am a babbling? :hypno:

Okay I understand what you meant and agree 100%. I am sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that uke was chasing nage so that nage could do the technique.

Thank You
David

Lyle Bogin
07-22-2009, 12:12 PM
I'm from NYC and we don't do a lot of breakfalls. Mostly I do them to impress children.