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Tomas Grana
07-09-2009, 09:27 PM
I'm wondering if any of you with karate experience might want to share your opinions on cross-training in karate and aikido. There are a few other threads dealing with this, but none that I found with my specific question....

I started training in aikido (aikikai) about 8 years ago. Loved it right away, was always pretty sure I would stick with it indefinitely after starting. About a year ago I had to relocate to a small town with no aikido dojo. The only budo practice to be found were two karate dojo, one shotokan and the other shito-ryu. Having little to no knowledge of karate, I picked the shotokan one since it was about a block away from my apartment, and had two practices a week versus a single one for the other dojo (yeah, just like that). I tried to keep an open mind and thought "at worst, maybe my attacks as uke in aikido might improve". Right away, I LOVED it. I thought, man, "have I been doing the wrong thing all along?". I decided that when I went back to aikido, I would try to keep doing karate.

Now I'm back in a larger city (Ottawa) where I've started taking aikido again (this time Yoshinkan, which is another story altogether). The same location where I'm training in aikido also has a shotokan dojo, so I thought, perfect, I'll try to balance the two.
The thing is, I'm now starting to find certain aspects of shotokan more and more difficult to follow. I'm OK with the lower stance, the little to no grappling, the shorter (and sometimes longer) distances, and the kicking, well, to be honest, that's the most fun :)
What I'm having a bit of difficulty accepting is the extreme linearity of it. This may be due to my beginner level, but at my other karate dojo there seemed to be more tai sabaki, which I felt complemented, rather, than clashed, with my aikido training. I've realised that the shihan overseeing that dojo also had a Chito-ryu background, and from what I understand, that style may place a larger emphasis on avoiding attacks (rather than meeting them with force) than other karate styles. I've begun to wonder if what I originally thought was straight shotokan was a mixture of these two styles (which no-one ever alluded to). Or perhaps it was simply a different curriculum within the same style....

Do you have any thoughts on which (if any) karate styles might harmonize with the circularity, for lack of a better word, of aikido, the best?

Thanks in advance for any and all of your input,
Tom

phitruong
07-09-2009, 10:54 PM
off the top of my head, i would say: shorinryu, isshinryu and gojuryu although many of the gojuryu schools seemed to be more go than ju. :) the current shotokan tends to be rather linear with lots of muscle power. they missed much of the teaching from Funakoshi.

personally, if you find a systema school near by, i would go with that. but then their training methodology might messing with your yoshinkan aikido and that's a good thing. :D

swalsh
07-09-2009, 11:28 PM
Tom,

After years of Goju ryu, I went to Aikido a few years ago to add some Ju to the whole lot of Go I had. I find the 2 compliment each other and a lot of similarities in how power is generated, taisabaki, atemi waza, even kuzushi waza.

That said, I think you would most likely get the same from any other karate system. I would recommend an Okinawan based system however.

Regards,

Stu

seank
07-10-2009, 03:48 AM
I found it particularly hard to let go of Kyokushin, which I had trained in for quite a number of years, when starting Aikido. Probably the subtle difference in shuto and the likes, but more likely learning not to aggressively attack any and every opening.

That said, I found that there were a large number of similarities and it complemented my understanding of Kyokushin over time.

All in all, I would suggest its a worthwhile cross-training style, but caveat that by sayings its always a challenge to climb to mountains at once ;)

lbb
07-10-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't think it ought to matter, to be honest. Just pick a karate dojo that is a good representative of its style and a style that is a good representation of karate -- not a style and school that's aikido with kicks and punches. Karate is karate and aikido is aikido, and if you need the two to be as much like each other as possible in order to train in both, then maybe you should reconsider whether you should do both. I also think it's totally barking up the wrong tree to try to figure out which approach is "doing it right". They're two different paths up the same mountain, and if you want to look at it a certain way, each one is going to be missing some things that you encounter on the other path.

I trained in karate (shotokan) before I trained in aikido, and I switched to aikido for the sole and simple reason that I moved and aikido was all there was. There were many things in aikido that didn't make sense to me for quite a while -- things where I thought that the karate solution to the problem made more sense. The aikido way makes sense to me now, but that doesn't mean that the karate way doesn't make sense -- it's not an either-or thing. Each approach has its tradeoffs. If you can understand that, I think you can benefit tremendously from training in two martial arts (under some circumstances -- a lot of other things have to fall into place too). If you're constantly trying to make one into the other or figure out which is better, IMO you're wasting your time. A lot of people favor this approach because it sounds like taking the best from both worlds, but it isn't. It's constantly cherrypicking, never integrating, always criticizing, always looking for the fly in the ointment instead of accepting things as they are in the hope of coming to an understanding through practice. It's a waste of time.

Marc Abrams
07-10-2009, 09:52 AM
If you have not seen dvd's or trained with Ushiro Sensei of Shindoryu, then you should. His utilization of Ki in his karate is unlike anybody else out there. It is simply to best compliment to help your Aikido.

Marc Abrams

pm me if you want the particulars on how to train with him or get his books or dvd's

ninjaqutie
07-10-2009, 11:17 AM
I don't know if you have this style around, but you may want to check out aikijitsu/aikijutsu/aikijujitsu (and many more variations to spell it). I trained in that before doing aikido and I have been able to carry over some stuff. My teacher didn't focus too much on the aikido aspect, so that is new to me, but other teachers in the style do a lot of aikido. There are lots of joint locks and fun throws in the style along with lots of fun weapons. :) It will help a lot with your ukemi and it isn't a "hard" style. Well... it CAN be, but it isn't for the most part.

Kevin Leavitt
07-10-2009, 01:53 PM
I think it is less about the style of Karate and more about the teacher. If the teacher is teaching correctly and understands principles of movment etc...then that is who you study with.

These days I am less about style of ANYTHING and more about the quality of the individual.

If I had a choice, I'd follow Marc Abrams advice and check out Ushiro Sensei.

Also I think alot of the Uechi Ryu traiinng (Okinawa) stuff is good IF you have a good teacher.

Unfortunately alot of Karate/TKD is "McDojo" and IMO for your money is a waste of time. Save it, go to some decent seminars with some good instructors.

gdandscompserv
07-11-2009, 03:40 AM
I think it is less about the style of Karate and more about the teacher. If the teacher is teaching correctly and understands principles of movment etc...then that is who you study with.

These days I am less about style of ANYTHING and more about the quality of the individual.
I completely agree with Kevin. I would be a student of my Sensei regardless of the style he teaches. Fortunately, it happens to be aikido!:D

Lulu
07-11-2009, 12:51 PM
I agree with Sean about Kyokushin Karate. I started training Kyokushin Karate and had been training for a few years when I found Aikido. I trained both for eight years and found them very complimentary to each other. Kyokushin was not linear and was a circle & point style of Karate - okinawan based.
I would still be training both but a foot injury forced me to give up Karate, but it still resonates in my Aikido Training and life even now.

I must also say that the statement that Aikido is Akido and Karate is Karate is not what I understand either to be. There are so many different representaions of Martial Arts and Schools that call themselves Karate and are really Tai Kwan Do etc

You need to find the style that is right for you and it is possible to successfully train two Martial Arts and thrive from both.

CNYMike
07-11-2009, 11:41 PM
.... Do you have any thoughts on which (if any) karate styles might harmonize with the circularity, for lack of a better word, of aikido, the best?

Thanks in advance for any and all of your input,
Tom

I'd stick with the dojo you're in for the convenience of "one stop shopping." As to your technical question, train in both arts but don't try to think of them at the same time. You'll notice where they're similar and where they diverge on your own in time; try to force it and you'll feel like your head is going to explode. Enjoy your training and remember to wear the right uniform to the right class.

Peter Chenier
07-12-2009, 01:23 AM
Hi ya Tomas! :0)

I'm going to recommend something that is very hard to find. The old name was Nippon Kempo Shinpuren. :0) Soft style, circular movements, they play the angles, and are very very difficult to handle in a fight. I trained is shotokan for four years and had never really lost a fight before I had my head handed to me by one of these guys...:0)

Cheers Peter

aikidoc
07-12-2009, 04:19 PM
kempo has a lot of circularity. Hapkido as well-daitoryu with kicks.

lbb
07-12-2009, 08:27 PM
I must also say that the statement that Aikido is Akido and Karate is Karate is not what I understand either to be. There are so many different representaions of Martial Arts and Schools that call themselves Karate and are really Tai Kwan Do etc.

I wasn't addressing situations where someone labels a martial art by the name of a different style, and I certainly wasn't saying that anything calling itself karate is the same as anything else calling itself karate. I think that's obvious if you take my statement in context, but in case it isn't, the point is that karate is not aikido and should not be aikido, and if you bust your butt to find the most aikido-like karate you can, what's the point?

Chris Farnham
07-12-2009, 10:44 PM
You might also want to look into Wado Ryu. As the founder of the style was also a licensed teacher of Shindō Yōshin-ryū Jujutsu, I believe they tend to be much more circular than most Karate styles. Furthermore Wado can also be translated as the way of harmony.

Cynrod
07-12-2009, 10:57 PM
You might also want to look into Wado Ryu. As the founder of the style was also a licensed teacher of Shindō Yōshin-ryū Jujutsu, I believe they tend to be much more circular than most Karate styles. Furthermore Wado can also be translated as the way of harmony.

I second Wado Ryu also as it's more circular than any other style of karate. One of the member here by the user name of Ken Zen Ichii teaches Wado Ryu in Nasu Shiobara City, Japan. Maybe you want to send him a PM if you have any question about Wado Ryu.

Suru
07-12-2009, 11:01 PM
I'm not sure which style of karate he's a high degree black belt in, but I've met a guy who is high ranking in Aikido as well. I was talking a while ago about gut instinct, and mind says he's certainly extra prepared in a street fight scenario. As far as whether karate enhances Aikido (notice I only capitalize the art I do) ;-) , I think it does, mainly when it comes to atemi and high-ranking kick attacks as uke. There is another man I trained with many times at my original dojo in Tallahassee. He's a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (Korean karate), and if he really finds himself in a jam, I've seen a really high kick fly! I feel a little like a hypocrite here, since Aikido is the only MA I've studied, when I know most of the others can certainly make good combos.

Drew

Tomas Grana
07-12-2009, 11:11 PM
First of all, thanks to everyone for all your comments. At the very least, you've helped me realize that I'm going about this the wrong way. If I keep trying to make my karate training "fit" my aikido training, then maybe that means I should just focus on aikido...

In the meantime I will give my current shotokan school more time with (hopefully) less or no "aikido bias". I will update with any findings sometime in the future.

Tom

JimCooper
07-13-2009, 07:10 AM
I'm wondering if any of you with karate experience might want to share your opinions on cross-training in karate and aikido.

Firstly, I'd say that in my experience getting a firm grounding in one art before starting to train in others is quite important.

Secondly, most karate is taught in a very linear manner (even "Okinawan" styles). This is a hangover from when it was modified to be taught in Okinawan schools back before the First World War, and dozens of students only had room to march up and down the dojo in straight lines. It is also one of the great weaknesses of karate as it is now taught. OTOH, most styles will teach you to strike and punch properly, which is the great weakness of most aikido people. And not just from a self-defence POV - better strikes give your partners a better practice.

But, as always, the instructor is more important than the style, or even the art.

lbb
07-13-2009, 08:22 AM
Tae Kwon Do (Korean karate)
Jeez, Drew. Whatever you do, don't ever ever ever call it that in front of a Korean. No joke.

JimCooper
07-13-2009, 10:53 AM
Jeez, Drew. Whatever you do, don't ever ever ever call it that in front of a Korean. No joke.

They do get sensitive about it. Mainly because there is a fair amount of truth in it, I think, which Koreans are not always very happy to acknowledge, given the history between Japan and Korea.

JimCooper
07-13-2009, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE=Drew Gardner;234549He's a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (Korean karate), and if he really finds himself in a jam, I've seen a really high kick fly!
[/QUOTE]

That's actually not a very effective technique when you're "in a jam" :-)

Not many of us are fast enough to move a foot the 6+ feet it will take to connect with an opponents head without them having plenty of time to get out of the way, or worse, grab hold of your leg. That's not a very comfortable position in which to find yourself :-)

Suru
07-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Mary, I agree saying that isn't PC or even an accurate thing to call Tae Kwon Do, which is certainly its own art. I actually sensed pain in myself when I typed that, not because it wasn't PC, but because I knew the wrath from other members was imminent. Should there be national pride from one art to the next? Should there be national pride? Hey, I'm glad I popped out in the States, but it could have been Greenland.

Jim, I've seen a Tae Kwon Do kick and a "Japanese karate" ;-) kick (happened to be basically the same kick) launch a foot at 3.0 x 10^8 m/s.

Drew

lbb
07-13-2009, 08:20 PM
Mary, I agree saying that isn't PC or even an accurate thing to call Tae Kwon Do, which is certainly its own art.

That last part is actually debatable, if we're being intellectually honest -- but one reminds the colonized of the "debt" they owe their colonizers at one's peril.

lbb
07-13-2009, 08:25 PM
Not many of us are fast enough to move a foot the 6+ feet it will take to connect with an opponents head without them having plenty of time to get out of the way, or worse, grab hold of your leg. That's not a very comfortable position in which to find yourself :-)

This claim about having "plenty of time" to avoid or trap a kick is often made by those who have never trained in a kicking style. No particular knock on you, Jim, I'm sure you're repeating the words of others, but if that statement were true, don't you think no one would ever land a kick in karate kumite? Think about it: these are people who are used to kicks, who know a lot more about them than an aikidoka, who spend a lot of time trying to avoid or thwart kicking techniques...and they still get hit sometimes. If they get hit, just what kind of time distortion trick is someone who isn't experienced with kicks going to pull in order to have this mythical "plenty of time"?

Suru
07-14-2009, 09:54 AM
just what kind of time distortion trick is someone who isn't experienced with kicks going to pull in order to have this mythical "plenty of time"?

Mary, I don't know if you are referring to my light speed comment, but thank you for the chuckle either way. Yesterday I watched a few Kung Fu episodes, and Carradine's kicks always seem just fast enough, like his timing is of the highest importance. Of course this is choreographed TV series script, but I'll say it usually appears on the realistic side.

Drew

JimCooper
07-14-2009, 02:03 PM
This claim about having "plenty of time" to avoid or trap a kick is often made by those who have never trained in a kicking style. No particular knock on you, Jim, I'm sure you're repeating the words of others


No, I'm not actually. I'm basing that statement on 20 years of karate practice.


but if that statement were true, don't you think no one would ever land a kick in karate kumite?


Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME. I've certainly never managed it. Kicks to the body are also rare, except in TKD competitions where they don't bother to try and block them.I knew one guy who was very good at them, but most people are rubbish, actually :-)

The problem is one of range. Your foot really does have to travel a very long way. Also, it's hard to avoid telegraphing. You can hide the type of kick somewhat, but only somewhat.

There are ways to use kicks in self-defence scenarios, but they are rarely practised (they are never practised in most karate dojo, IME). They are **never** high kicks. High kicks are a recent introduction to karate, in fact, and kicks were never done above the waist in the "old" days.

If you really feel it's necessary, the best way to do a kick to the head is to get the opponent on the ground first. It's a pretty vicious thing to do though.

MM
07-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Huh, well, I guess someone should tell Cro Cop that all his winning kicks were too slow and could be blocked. Especially the one at 1:02-1:04 in this vid. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjHxQl-KwEs

Ron Tisdale
07-14-2009, 02:26 PM
Hey Mark...I was just going to say that. :O

Though I agree, the attendent risk in a self defense (as opposed to sporting) environment would make me shy away from high kicks...if I could even still do them. :)

Best,
Ron

lbb
07-14-2009, 02:49 PM
No, I'm not actually. I'm basing that statement on 20 years of karate practice.

Ah. As I'm sure you'll understand, most people who repeat that line have never trained in karate and are simply repeating, um, "received wisdom".

Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME.

Who said they had to be kicks to the head?

I've certainly never managed it.

I have :D

JimCooper
07-14-2009, 03:06 PM
Jim, I've seen a Tae Kwon Do kick and a "Japanese karate" ;-) kick (happened to be basically the same kick)


They aren't "basically" the same, they are exactly the same.

JimCooper
07-14-2009, 03:10 PM
Who said they had to be kicks to the head?


The person I was replying to :-)

JimCooper
07-14-2009, 03:27 PM
Huh, well, I guess someone should tell Cro Cop that all his winning kicks were too slow and could be blocked.

Like I said, not many of us are fast enough to do that. I'm not sure why you think I said no-one could do it.

lbb
07-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Like I said, not many of us are fast enough to do that. I'm not sure why you think I said no-one could do it.

Um, well...not many of us can use aikido techniques effectively in a fight either. That's just as valid as your statement. So what's the point?

Suru
07-14-2009, 04:40 PM
Also in the UFC and its minor leagues, I've seen what I guess I'll call "jab kicks" to the quadriceps and maybe hamstrings. They land often, and after repeated ones, the opponent must just want to exit the octagon and sit in a Jacuzzi for a few hours.

Drew

Lulu
07-14-2009, 06:57 PM
I wasn't addressing situations where someone labels a martial art by the name of a different style, and I certainly wasn't saying that anything calling itself karate is the same as anything else calling itself karate. I think that's obvious if you take my statement in context, but in case it isn't, the point is that karate is not aikido and should not be aikido, and if you bust your butt to find the most aikido-like karate you can, what's the point?

I misunderstood what you were saying. I always kept the two arts seperate when I was training both, but I found them very similar at times.:)

MM
07-15-2009, 01:52 PM
Like I said, not many of us are fast enough to do that. I'm not sure why you think I said no-one could do it.

You said:


Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME. I've certainly never managed it. Kicks to the body are also rare, except in TKD competitions where they don't bother to try and block them.I knew one guy who was very good at them, but most people are rubbish, actually :-)


Rare and most people are rubbish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc_PJxret-A
At 0:42-0:44, 2:00-2:03, 2:18-2:19, 4:34-4:35, 4:38

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELkYe2w-3iY
At 0:51

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJsucalR-UQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cDpxhrIvL8
0:20

Doesn't take much youtube-fu to find quite a lot of knockout kicks to the head, let alone just kicks to the head that aren't knockouts. Same with kicks to the body. Rare? No. And I would also argue that "not many of us" or "most people" really doesn't apply either when looking within that sphere of martial arts or sports -- If all the youtube video is to be believed.

Here's a karate kumite with a kick to the head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG8M4FlDBn8
0:20
And they manage kicks to the body, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNp16NtiYMc
2:34 kick to the body.
4:33-4:34, was that a kick to the head?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeL67B0VOUM
right at the beginning, a kick to the head

seank
07-15-2009, 10:18 PM
I know this has been delving further from the topic at hand, but I would agree that head kicks in and of themselves are not used as often because they do take time to land and are often hard to employ without a feint to mask the intention of the kick.

Of course I remember very early on being kicked three times to the face by my instructor only a year or so after starting studying kyokushin, but that kind of head high attack became less effective as my skill improved and my height and weight increased.

Similarly I was concussed after being kicked to the chest with a simple mae geri delivered by a nidan fukushidoin during one of my gradings. I successfully blocked the attack but the momentum of a kick delivered by a person twenty centimetres taller and 30kgs heavier simply sent me flying backwards, head first into the ground.

At a higher level of karate, I would suggest there is far less of the rapid-fire kicking and punching, and more deliberate, aimed attacks. One karateka will try and create an opportunity or opening and exploit it rather than just relying on a random hit. The movements become more rounded in an attempt to flow and respond to an attack, not entirely unlike Aikido in that respect.

As with anything though, there are people who can genuinely pull off lightning fast kicks that can get away with kicking to the head. For me though it was an opportunistic attack rather than something regularly relied upon. We trained to use elbows and knees against forearms and shins, striking at distance and at close range, alternating the attacks to try and create an opportunity. An elbow to the head is just as effective as kicking and can be delivered in a fraction of the time.

There are so many styles, methodologies and experience that its almost impossible to pidgeon hole the success or likelihood of any type of attack, kick or otherwise.

Simply, kicks to the head exist, they can be performed, they can easily knock someone out, they can be slow or fast, they can have an enormous amount of power or just enough to tip a persons balance, they can come from an inside attacking line, an outside line, from overhead, from underneath. You name it its there. Like any other fight it may or may not present.

JimCooper
07-16-2009, 03:43 AM
Rare and most people are rubbish.


At high kicks, yes, most people are. Of course, my opinion gained actually doing this stuff for 20 years has now been swayed by your extensive youtube research.

There is a reason that high kicks were not in old style (ie more self defence oriented) karate. There is a reason self-defence instructors do not teach high kicks.

You can choose to believe otherwise, of course.

JimCooper
07-16-2009, 03:50 AM
Um, well...not many of us can use aikido techniques effectively in a fight either. That's just as valid as your statement. So what's the point?

I'm not sure I understand your question. What's my point (which is simply a disagreement about a technique's usefulness in a given situation), or what's the point of training in aikido?

lbb
07-16-2009, 07:17 AM
I'm not sure I understand your question. What's my point (which is simply a disagreement about a technique's usefulness in a given situation), or what's the point of training in aikido?

What's your point in creating a double standard in which you dismiss a karate technique as useless, while failing to provide evidence to support your assertion that defeating such a technique is trivially easy?

MM
07-16-2009, 07:33 AM
At high kicks, yes, most people are. Of course, my opinion gained actually doing this stuff for 20 years has now been swayed by your extensive youtube research.

There is a reason that high kicks were not in old style (ie more self defence oriented) karate. There is a reason self-defence instructors do not teach high kicks.

You can choose to believe otherwise, of course.

Let's go back and revisit your words.


Scoring kicks to the head are extremely rare in kumite, IME. I've certainly never managed it. Kicks to the body are also rare, except in TKD competitions where they don't bother to try and block them.


Kumite = sparring. You specifically stated that kicks to the head are "extremely rare" in kumite. I disagreed and provided raw, video evidence that kicks to the head are not rare in kumite.

Within minutes, I found all those links on youtube. And the first section was knockout kicks to the head in competition or sparring. With days, months, and years, I could certainly accomplish much, much more than that.

Of course, if you want to bring up your 20 years of experience and put it against the entire world posting videos of competition and sparring, that's entirely your choice. I'm personally not comparing my experiences in kumite with yours. I'm showing real world facts as experienced by everyone outside my personal experience. If you have a problem with all those people - world wide, mind you - negating your 20 years of experience, please take it up with them.

I stand by my reflections -- kicks to the head or body are not rare in kumite, as you noted.

If you want to try to bring into the discussion, self defense applicational usages to muddy up the high-kick kumite discussion, I'd suggest starting a new thread. I'm getting too off topic already.

I'll just leave it and let those reading this thread decide what to believe: you posting that high kicks and body kicks are extremely rare in kumite from your 20 years of experience; or my 10 minute quick Youtube search showing many high kick knockouts, high kicks to the head, and body kicks scoring points in kumite throughout the entire world.

Michael Fitzgerald
07-23-2009, 04:03 AM
I'll try to balance the two... This may be due to my beginner level,...Do you have any thoughts on which (if any) karate styles might harmonize with the circularity, for lack of a better word, of aikido, the best?...
Tom

HI Tom,
Not sure if you're still interested in this topic, but just in case, and FWIW:
My opinion is that very few people can train in two different (at least at basic level) arts/ systems, and be excellent at both (either?).
Not sure why this is - could be that the sorts of people who try it aren't made for either (harsh, yes)- or could be that it's a case of 'chase two rabbits- catch none'!?
My suggestion? If you want to train traditional Karate, and you feel it suits your body type/ instincts- try Goju, or another Okinawan style if you have access to an experienced and true teacher.
If you want to train Aikido, just train Aikido (same caveats).

You mention the fun of kicking. While it can be liberating or give you a free or empowering feeling to strike in training Karate or other arts, this is not always an indication that you are developing a practically applicable arsenal of behaviours/ techniques (which can also be developed in Aikido IMHO).

Having said all that!! I am no expert and enjoy typing- so take it with a grain of salt hey?
Good luck.:)

phitruong
07-23-2009, 12:58 PM
methink you folks are missing the point. forget about kicking in the head and stuffs like that. it's about train the body to do what you want it to do. if there is an opening to the head and my foot is conveniently available, i should be able to "take this foot and put on that side of the face" (billy jack). or if an opening for a shoulder strike or a hips strike or an elbow or a head-butt, i should be able to carry it out. or if there is an opening for iriminage or shihonage or whatever-nage, i should be able to take it without thinking about it. personally, i would go with systema, because those buggers can really teach aikido and karate folks how to move more relax and freely. their methodology would blend in well with aikido randori and freestyle. but then again what do i know, since i only got hit by them a few times which hurt like the ex-wife-of-pain. :D

Russ Q
07-23-2009, 04:59 PM
Hey all,

I was honoured to be a guest instructor at the local Shito-ryu gasshku this past weekend. Just prior to my session I was watching these fine karate folks doing some tanken dori. Very, very similar to aikido although, as one might imagine, more strikes and rougher take downs. I noticed a basic arm bar and shihonage as two techniques that really stuck out as similar. Also, their irimi was significantly more shallow than how I have been taught...but it was there. I'm glad I went early as it gave me a theme to work with...irimi.

Cheers,

Russ

Tomas Grana
07-29-2009, 09:55 PM
So.... yeah..... kicking.... and stuff.......

As it is usual on AikiWeb, it's been fun to watch the discussion stray steadily off topic and read people getting more and more worked up about who can kick whom in the head..... :D

I think in the end my body (and perhaps my mind too) is making the decision for me.... I'm just not cut out for 5+ practices a week, and weighing out 7+ years of aikido training vs <1 year of karate, fun as it may have been, well, it's an easy choice.

I'm still going to give some time to karate until my body firmly says "no", and I'll update if any have any.... updates.

justin
07-30-2009, 02:49 AM
Hey all,

I was honoured to be a guest instructor at the local Shito-ryu gasshku this past weekend. Just prior to my session I was watching these fine karate folks doing some tanken dori. Very, very similar to aikido although, as one might imagine, more strikes and rougher take downs. I noticed a basic arm bar and shihonage as two techniques that really stuck out as similar. Also, their irimi was significantly more shallow than how I have been taught...but it was there. I'm glad I went early as it gave me a theme to work with...irimi.

Cheers,

Russ

I remember doing similar techniques back in the day now doing Aikido brings the memories back even more, however one point to your observations whilst the take downs may have looked rougher I dont think they where as Karate students you learn no form of ukemi what so ever or at least we never did so every take down seemed rough as none of us knew how to fall.

Marc Abrams
07-30-2009, 07:12 AM
Ushiro Karate (Shindoryu Karetedo) not only has throws and locks that are very similar to high quality Aikido waza, but the throws are done full speed on hard wood floors, so that they learn very good ukemi. Many Aikidoka and Judoka learn bad ukemi habits that would not have bad results on hard surfaces.

Last month, I was in Japan at a special training camp with Ushiro Sensei and his son and I went at each other all out, throwing each other (including sacrifice throws) onto hard wood floors. None of us got any bruises. Hard surfaces let you really know how your ukemi is!

Marc Abrams

Russ Q
07-30-2009, 01:11 PM
Hello Justin and Mark,

Justin, you're right...., the take downs did "look" rougher due to the lack of ukemi skills....

Mark, what a great opportunity to train in Japan with Ushiro Sensei! I agree that we aikidoka tend to get a little lazy with our ukemi (me, most definitely, included) and that training on harder surfaces will let you know very quickly where your ukemi needs to improve.

Cheers,

Russ

Kevin Leavitt
07-30-2009, 02:36 PM
Marc,

Does their (your) Ukemi tend to grab, hold, or stay connected more than maybe you might see in Aikido or Judo practices? That is, riding the fall down.

Marc Abrams
07-30-2009, 08:18 PM
Marc,

Does their (your) Ukemi tend to grab, hold, or stay connected more than maybe you might see in Aikido or Judo practices? That is, riding the fall down.

Kevin:

With Ushiro Sensei, you literally receive no warning signs (eg. tactile, tension, etc.) before you find yourself propelled, so that you do not have an opportunity to grab or hold. With my old wrestling background, and the work at SBK and with Ushiro Sensei, I find that I have no problem remaining relaxed as I am being tossed. That allows me to be able to remain connected. For example, when most people do sacrifice throws on me, I go with it and then use the momentum to change the roll so that I end up on top. I do not get enough "info" from Ushiro Sensei to be able to do that with him.

Ushiro Sensei uses his Ki so that no matter how hard you get tossed on the ground by him, you end up not getting hurt. It teaches your body at a preconscious level to be able to receive the throws safely.

Regards,

Marc Abrams

gdandscompserv
07-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Marc,

Does their (your) Ukemi tend to grab, hold, or stay connected more than maybe you might see in Aikido or Judo practices? That is, riding the fall down.
I quite often attempt to ride the fall down. It's easier on my body and keeps my partner honest. I also will bring my foot towards their head, looking for that opening as well.:D

Kevin Leavitt
07-31-2009, 08:59 AM
LOL, Ricky yea I do the same!

Thanks Marc, that is interesting. I like that feeling when there is no feedback or prioprioceptive reference point and it simply becomes easier to actually do the ukemi.

Larry Feldman
07-31-2009, 09:55 AM
From the Karate people that have come to practice with me through the years Kempo practicioners seem to adapt to Aikido the best.

A friend who does Ju Jitsu has made the same comment to me.

Marc Abrams
07-31-2009, 10:29 AM
LOL, Ricky yea I do the same!

Thanks Marc, that is interesting. I like that feeling when there is no feedback or prioprioceptive reference point and it simply becomes easier to actually do the ukemi.

Kevin:

Isn't it amazing how if we have time to think about the movement, we typically screw it up and get hurt :eek: ! One thing that I keep repeating to my students is that our bodies typically know what to do and how to do it safely, it is just a matter of not interfering in that process.

Marc

ninjaqutie
07-31-2009, 11:14 AM
I also will bring my foot towards their head, looking for that opening as well.:D

As far as that goes, depending on the throw and the person who's doing the throwing, I have to conciously make an effort NOT to kick nage in the head. I have kicked a few people before (not hard of course) :D

In my aikijitsu class, we frequently grabbed onto whoever was throwing us. The only acception was when we did sacrafice throws. In that case, I gladly let go to get my roll in.... unless nage refused to let go of me! In aikido, I don't do it so much, but there are some techniques that I just can't help it. Sometimes my clingyness causes me to land in a breakfall though, but I don't mind those.

K. Abrams
08-10-2009, 08:19 PM
Jeez, Drew. Whatever you do, don't ever ever ever call it that in front of a Korean. No joke.

I think that's what Koreans themselves called it back in the 1950s and 60s, because it was more like karate back in those days. A lot of them learned karate when Japan occupied Korea up till the end of the second world war. Modern TKD was modeled on it. Word!

But you are right, I don't think they'd appreciate anyone calling it that now. I trained in TKD from age 8 until I graduated from high school and never ever heard any of my instructors or their teachers mention Japanese karate or any connection to it.

Back to topic, I don't think any karate style is complementary to aikido. The movements seem too stiff and angular and idea of punching and kicking just doesn't fit in with blending. On the other hand, it wouldn't hurt to learn some decent punches and kicks to use as atemi to make aikido practice more realistic.

Jorge Garcia
08-11-2009, 08:48 AM
You might want to look at the Ryobu-kai style. The founder of this style was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and O Sensei had a hand in advising him in the development of a couple of the later katas. These articles below are from the Ryobukai website.

Best wishes,
Jorge

______________________________________________________

Ryobu-Kai Info
The JAPAN KARATE-DO RYOBU-KAI (JKR) is a professional, international organization under the leadership of Yasuhiro (Takehiro) Konishi, 10th Dan.

The JKR has branches located all over the world under the guidance of Kiyoshi Yamazaki, 8th Dan, International Director and Chief Instructor. The style of karate taught by the JKR is called Shindo Jinen Ryu. This style was founded by Yasuhiro Konishi, who learned karate from Gichin Funakoshi, Chojun Miyagi, Kenwa Mabuni, and Choki Motobu. Additionally, Konishi Sensei studied extensively under the founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba. The JKR also has a lineage dating back to the 16th century traditions of Takenouchi Ryu Jujitsu. Training in the JKR is conducted in the traditional Japanese method, stressing discipline, consistent attendance, etiquette, and hard work. The karate training in the JKR is life-long, and can be continued regardless of age.

Modern training in Shindo Jinen Ryu Karate-do incorporates elements of karate, aikido, jujitsu, and kendo in the formal curriculum, with an emphasis on philosophy and education. The curriculum also emphasizes Zanshin (the ability of an exponent to gain dominance over an opponent through an alert state of mind) and maintenance of proper physical posture.

The purpose of training in Shindo Jinen Ryu Karate-do is to develop the whole human being, physically and mentally. Through long-term, dedicated training the student learns to develop and unite Shin (mind), Gi (technique), and Tai (body)

in proper proportions. The end result is awareness of one's moral obligations and place in society.

_____________________________________________________

http://www.jkr.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=78:old-grand-master-yasuhiro-konishi-qkarate-and-his-lifeq&catid=34:history&Itemid=53

Morihei Ueshiba

Though Ryukyu traditional martial arts, Ryukyu Kenpo Tote Jitsu, and Karate-jitsu had started to be known throughout Japan, the history of its dissemination in the mainland Japan was still short and it could be said that they were considered to be by far inferior in every aspect of martial arts to Kendo and Judo.

The fact that Karate was still called "Karate-Jutsu" while Kendo and Judo were called with "Do" indicating the system. With a strong desire to develop the karate into one of the recognized martial arts by all means. Yasuhiro worked very hard to disseminate karate through the connections in the Jujitsu world. But the results were not satisfactory one. In the Kendo world, people who recognized karate like Hakudo Nakayama was a minority, and there was still a strong tendency to define karate a primitive art in which thrusting and kicking were representative arts. If someone remarked that karate was a kind of fencing without a sword, a lot kendo masters showed a fight against that kind of remarks. From the end of the 1920s, many people pointed out that not a few karate men lacked good manners and behavior. People who were in the Judo world denied unanimously the existence of karate, and there was even a movement in Kodo-kan which tried to introduce the karate into a part of Judo as a self-defense art. The reason why Gichin Funakoshi declined the frequent invitation to the Kodo-kan had a strong relationship with this.

Also the various schools of traditional martial arts didn't give any high evaluation of karate. "Essence of Japanese traditional martial arts was not to defeat the opponent completely, but to pin down or hold an outlaw asking him whether he would correct his conduct or not, and if not, arm or some parts of body would be dislocated, which meant a spirit of allowance to forgive the enemy was left even in the fight. "On the contrary", some of the traditional martial arts masters protested Yasuhiro saying that "karate stars abrupt thrusting or kicking. This is against the code of behavior for SAMURAI spirit." This kind of criticism was not so serious. But the more severe criticism generated by one of the martial arts experts was that forms of karate were not refined historically. This comment hit the weakest point of karate. Expert who made this comment was Morihei Ueshiba who developed Aiki-do later. This martial arts expert was standing unrivaled in the term of the strong and mysteriousness in Te beginning of Showa era together with the fact he mastered various martial arts such as Yagyu-Ryu, Hozoin-Ryu, Jyuken-Jutsu, and other traditional Japanese martial arts concentrating on Aiki-do Jujitsu of Daito-Ryu.

One anecdote tells that he didn't give any chance to a plural of high ranking kendo experts to hit him when he had a match fighting with them, and another anecdote tells that when he was surrounded by a plural of military polices, he disappeared instantly without being observed by the military polices, and another anecdote tells that when he fought with a grand champion of Manchuria wrestling, he threw the opponent with his little finger, and one of his followers Kozo Shiota a master (manager of Yoshinkan) observed Ueshiba fight with "Piston" Horiguchi a boxer holding down the opponent forward instantly with his little finger. Anyway, he was a first ranking martial artist who was referring to as "God of martial art".

Yasuhiro also entered in his club, but as Ueshiba didn't make any official announcement of Aikido developer yet at that time, the list of license for Yasuhiro which is still preserved carries "Daito-Ryu" and "Aioi-Ryu". When Yasuhiro demonstrated "kata of Heian" Shodan (now Nidan), he was suggested by Ueshiba to discard such martial arts because it didn't work at all. Later Yasuhiro commented that the most great and unrivaled master of martial arts I met so far (he was 83 years old at that time[c. 1973]) was Ueshiba Sensei.

But Yasuhiro's karate was entirely criticized by this great master whom Yasuhiro respected much. The point of Ueshiba's criticism was that "the martial arts with only rough and straight attack doesn't provide any usefulness...." To Ueshiba who believed that only circle movement was the ultimate goal of martial arts, straight attack such as thrust and kick seemed to be mastered quickly, but he could not feel any profoundness in the art and it seemed to him that the art couldn't catch up with the nobleness the martial arts should have at all. Yasuhiro explained the situation later. "I wouldn't like to stop my karate even if I was suggested to stop it because it didn't work out at all. I had responsibility for developing the karate into the recognized martial arts some day with the help of Aiki-do which would be accepted by my teacher Ueshiba. I was planning to show him my karate again, so I asked him to never mention to stop right away." (From memories of Yasuhiro on Karate).

Yasuhiro tried his best to find out the best solution to the above for almost eight months. "Ueshiba was a man having a divine inspiration rather than a man of martial artist. And he seemed a special man to me. His life was full of curious things. Therefore, I admired him and believed in him and what he said was my mental food and I tried by best so that I could be accepted by him." (memories on Karate by Yasuhiro). And when Ueshiba saw demonstration by Yasuhiro which was quite familiar to kata form of "Heian", he was satisfied and said tapping his laps "Mr. Konishi, the demonstration you did now was satisfactory to me, and that deserves well for mastering." This form which was demonstrated by Yasuhiro was developed and referred to as "TAISABAKI" body movement later. "Though it contained no complex movement, the form was consisted of continuous movement instead of pausing after each action. That is to say, the form didn't employ any single action, but employed a chain of action without pausing between them. Not an accumulation of single action, but a flow of movement. The demonstrations I had ever seen were a spell of movement like a puppet doll as Ueshiba pointed out."

At the same time, it is said that Yasuhiro learned from Ueshiba that the art had two kinds of spirit, one expressed externally and one expressed only in mind. Yasuhiro's incessant eagerness to acquire the secret of various kinds of martial arts brought him the chance to meet Seiko Fujita, the 14th generation of master of "Koga Ninjutsu" and made him to obtain the license from "Nanban Kito-Ryu", and to meet Motoro Kaneda of Yoshin Koryu", and made him to learn swift technique from Haunari Watanabe of "Shiba Shinyo-Ryu Jujitsu" and "Fusen-Ryu Jujitsu" from Eizaburo Nakayama and "Yagyu Shingan-Ryu" from Itsumi Sato.

The author has never heard any one who mastered so wider variety of martial arts as Yasuhiro Konishi. Yasuhiro learned the martial arts other than karate and tried to compare them with karate and adopted the arts which did not exist in the karate. His method was to employ the excellent skill form other sections of martial arts and discard what was not useful to his karate to attain the balance combination of various techniques in his karate. Everybody asked "Why are you so eager to acquire the secrets of other martial arts than karate?" He always replied that "I would like to improve karate to the level equal to Kendo and Judo which were traditional Japanese martial arts."

______________________________________________________

Seiryu - The Story Behind the Kata
http://www.jkr.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48:seiryu-the-story-behind-the-kata&catid=34:history&Itemid=53

ninjaqutie
08-11-2009, 11:39 AM
You might want to look at the Ryobu-kai style. The founder of this style was a student of Morihei Ueshiba and O Sensei

Are Morihei Ueshiba and O'Sensei not one in the same? Maybe a / between the two names would be better... unless I am reading this wrong and am a hoplessly lost beginner..... . :D

aikilouis
08-11-2009, 03:41 PM
I guess the "and" served to separate the two parts of the sentence, not just the two names.

Ron Tisdale
08-11-2009, 03:44 PM
The founder of this style was a student of Morihei Ueshiba

and O Sensei had a hand in advising him in the development of a couple of the later katas.

That better? ;)
R

JimCooper
12-10-2009, 04:08 AM
You specifically stated that kicks to the head are "extremely rare" in kumite. I disagreed and provided raw, video evidence that kicks to the head are not rare in kumite.


See, the thing is, that you didn't show any such thing, and the problem is that you haven't considered the numbers. Let me explain.

I've been training for 20 years. Exactly none of that training is on youtube (because it was quite boring to watch). The ratio of kumite on youtube to the total amount of kumite done in the world is vanishingly small. Add up all the length of all the videos you found, or could find in a month, even, and divide that by the millions of hours spent by all the karate students in the world doing kumite every week. And that's just for one week, so a fairer test would be to find all the videos you could that had occurred in a one week timeframe.

People put stuff on youtube because they think it's interesting or unusual. Like kicking people in the head in kumite, for example. Just because you can find something on youtube doesn't mean it's commonplace; more often it means it isn't. It's noteworthy (ie out of the ordinary) in some way, and worth putting up for people to see.

My point was reinforced by another poster who can remember kicks that landed. They're rare, so they stand out. (And of course, if a good one does land, they're very powerful, and so tend to imprint themselves physically and mentally.)

If instead of sitting in front of a computer you were to actually visit a dojo, I think you'd find my point stands. Most people in the dojo will not be very good at head high kicking. You could watch kumite for weeks before seeing one land, although you'll see very many attempts.

But of course, there are some people who are very good at kicking. Some of their bouts are quite spectacular, and therefore end up on youtube. But even for these people, almost all of their sparring is NOT there. You only see the edited highlights.

Consider another example. You can find loads of footage/news article/etc of plane crashes on the internet. Because you can find it quickly, does that mean plane crashes are common? No it doesn't. Plane crashes are so rare that every one gets news coverage.

Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, so yes, I will back my 20 years of experience (which incidentally, has taken in quite a bit of the world) against your few minutes of youtube research.

lbb
12-10-2009, 07:43 AM
S
Your whole line of reasoning is flawed, so yes, I will back my 20 years of experience (which incidentally, has taken in quite a bit of the world) against your few minutes of youtube research.

Well, I guess you told him!

...five months later...

Anth
12-10-2009, 02:57 PM
To jump back to the original topic and avoid the fun that is kumite arguments, I was graded to nidan in kamishin ryu karate (shotokan with a bit of wado ryu thrown in) in March after 8 years of training and started aikido in August and I like how the styles are totally different. It means that I don't get so confused going between classes and I like the change of being back at the other end of the dojo.

Some things cross between the two, especially when you start looking at bunkai (application of kata) in karate or when you're uke attacking with a punch. I've noticed that my karate techniques and combinations flow better since starting aikido while I know the basics of using body mechanics instead of strength (I'm not the strongest bloke on the planet by a long shot) too.

Oh, and on the subject of TKD being "Korean Karate", you'll find that Tang Soo Do is effectively Shotokan karate with a Korean twist. The kata have equivalent hyungs that are fairly similar (Heian ("peaceful mind") kata becoming Pyung Ahn ("peace and harmony") hyungs) and the basics are similar only with more emphasis on high kicks. Tae Kwon Do, while having some similar principles (as we're currently discussing on another forum), is more different than similar (if you know what I mean).

dps
12-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Boxing

David

David Yap
12-11-2009, 11:30 AM
...Oh, and on the subject of TKD being "Korean Karate", you'll find that Tang Soo Do is effectively Shotokan karate with a Korean twist. The kata have equivalent hyungs that are fairly similar (Heian ("peaceful mind") kata becoming Pyung Ahn ("peace and harmony") hyungs) and the basics are similar only with more emphasis on high kicks. Tae Kwon Do, while having some similar principles (as we're currently discussing on another forum), is more different than similar (if you know what I mean).

Anthony,

Actually, the root of Tang Soo Do is from traditional Okinawa Karate - Tang Soo Do is the korean reading of "The Way of Chinese Hands". The root of TKD is from Shotokan Karate. The founder of TKD, General Choi, was awarded 2nd dan by Gichin Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan.

Regards

David Y

Anth
12-11-2009, 12:45 PM
I didn't know that bit but it explains a lot :)

salim
12-11-2009, 07:24 PM
Mark Murray,

Sick knockouts.

Pat Togher
12-17-2009, 12:46 PM
Anthony,

Actually, the root of Tang Soo Do is from traditional Okinawa Karate - Tang Soo Do is the korean reading of "The Way of Chinese Hands". The root of TKD is from Shotokan Karate. The founder of TKD, General Choi, was awarded 2nd dan by Gichin Funakoshi, founder of Shotokan.

Regards

David Y

Just wanted to interject that there are lines of TKD that do not trace decent from General Choi. Choi is generally credited with coining the name TKD, but the technical background appears to have been much more of a comittee thing (unification of the Kwans) though most seem to have a Japanese influence to some degree. The Moo Duk Kwan lineage that I studied moves in a fashion totally different fashion (more similar to Karate) than what I saw of the Choi sine wave style.

There's some new books on the history of TKD that that I haven't gotten around to reading yet.

Pat

kironin
12-18-2009, 01:16 PM
If you have not seen dvd's or trained with Ushiro Sensei of Shindoryu, then you should. His utilization of Ki in his karate is unlike anybody else out there. It is simply to best compliment to help your Aikido.

Marc Abrams

pm me if you want the particulars on how to train with him or get his books or dvd's

Exactly what I was thinking!

Very interesting guy. First saw him at the Aiki-Expo's

Eugene Leslie
01-23-2010, 03:41 PM
Great post. I learned alot reading the thread.
From my experience, the lower the kick the quicker of course; and there are kicks designed to block or interrupt kicks (very low kicks).
From a practical point of view it can't hurt to learn some strikes and the conditioning that goes with them.
As far as high kicks go though....why place yourself in that vulnerable tenuous balance position? Especially the fancy spinning back kicks ...good for demonstations or professional fighters vs each other; but in self defence for the common person... stay grounded.

Manfred von Richtofen was the highest scoring Ace and he abhorred the loop.

eyesman14
02-09-2010, 02:16 PM
I just started training in aikido 5 months ago (loving it!) after training in shotokan karate since I was 8 ( I'm 31), I feel for the guys that have trouble with turning off the linearity of karate for the circularity of aikido but with that said I honestly think that I am better prepared for any street situation due to my exposure to both.

WilliB
03-08-2010, 09:39 AM
I am also doing Aikikai Aikido and Shotokan, and I enjoy both. I donīt know enough to pontificate about cross-training in general, but I can say for sure that it would be a good thing for Aikido students to have at least some basic Karate Kihon training so that they actually can through a punch. (Likewise, I find that some people at Karate place look ridiculous in the occasional situation where they have to take a fall.)

Going back to the original poster, if he is interested in mixing the arts maybe he find a Yoseikan Budo place? That would seem tailor-made for him. Both Karate and Aikido, combined in a systematic way as I understand.

Russ Q
03-08-2010, 01:28 PM
I've been trolling youtube lately and found Ashihara Karate USA.....these clips show a teacher (don't know his name) who is amazingly centered and doing much tai sabaki as part of his teaching....check it out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juP3IKQ-DBA&feature=related

Ron Tisdale
03-08-2010, 02:29 PM
gotta admit, I was expecting to barf, but hey, that was pretty good. I'd really hate to fight that guy. I like how he applauded the student at the end when the student got something right. Not my chosen path, but dude was balanced, smooth, fast, powerfull. And some of the tai sabaki was surprisingly familiar.

Best,
Ron

SeiserL
03-08-2010, 03:26 PM
Ushiro Sensei was at the Expos and did a great job of showing how aiki karate could be.

I would suggest any style of karate that teaches you to punch realistically so we can train better.

Marc Abrams
03-08-2010, 05:12 PM
Ushiro Sensei was at the Expos and did a great job of showing how aiki karate could be.

I would suggest any style of karate that teaches you to punch realistically so we can train better.

For those who can do so, Ushiro Sensei will be in the US two times this year. There are still spaces available for his seminar at my school on May 15 & 16. For more information please go to my events page on my website.

I apologize in advance for this shameless promotional post :rolleyes:

Marc Abrams

WilliB
03-08-2010, 09:32 PM
gotta admit, I was expecting to barf, but hey, that was pretty good. I'd really hate to fight that guy. I like how he applauded the student at the end when the student got something right. Not my chosen path, but dude was balanced, smooth, fast, powerfull. And some of the tai sabaki was surprisingly familiar.

Best,
Ron

I am not into the Kyokushin family of full-contact karate styles, but I must say Ashihara demonstrations look pretty cool. Especially when Yuka Kobayashi is doing them. :-)

Russ Q
03-09-2010, 09:18 AM
Hey Ron,

I usually feel like throwing up too, when I see most of those kinds of vids, but this guy is impressive.

Russ

bob_stra
03-09-2010, 10:58 AM
Hmmm...wasn't there a style of karate that was developed by a mid-ranking dan grade aikidoka in the early 1970's in Japan? Emphasis is one avoidance ('irimi and tenkan'). What was it called...Seibukan? Tsubokan?

I believe there was also a well known aikido instructor who was a amateur boxer. Fun to watch him slip, jab and cross before throwing from that one youtube clip I saw yonks ago

There is of course Daido Juku, Yoseikan Budo etc...but those may beyond the scope of the original question

Ron Tisdale
03-09-2010, 12:57 PM
I believe there was also a well known aikido instructor who was a amateur boxer. Fun to watch him slip, jab and cross before throwing from that one youtube clip I saw yonks ago

Koroiwa Sensei I believe. Unfortunately, he has passed. See Ellis Amdur's excellent tribute article on this very site.

Best,
Ron

SeiserL
03-09-2010, 02:39 PM
I apologize in advance for this shameless promotional post :rolleyes:
There is no shame in providing a quality training experience.

David Yap
03-10-2010, 08:54 PM
Hmmm...wasn't there a style of karate that was developed by a mid-ranking dan grade aikidoka in the early 1970's in Japan? Emphasis is one avoidance ('irimi and tenkan'). What was it called...Seibukan? Tsubokan?

Hi Bob,

Don't know about that but there is a karate school that was heavy influenced by Morihei Ueshiba in the early 1930's. The time when he was still teaching Daito-ryu aikijutsu. The founder of the school was Yasushiro Konishi and at that time he called his style Shindo Jinen-Ryu Karate-jutsu. Today, the organization he started is called Japan Karate-do Ryobu-kai.

Regards

David Y

mah927
03-24-2010, 09:19 AM
In my humble opinion I would say Goju Ryu. Obviously, I have to admit I am biased since that is what I have been training, until I relocated. It is amazing, as you put in the hours in Goju Ryu it seem to fuse with Aikido, especially the "Ju" part. All I can say it would be a wonderful compliment to Aikido. I am getting old, so moving away from "Go" and focusing on "Ju" and Aikido.

Chris Evans
03-22-2011, 10:52 AM
Seido Juku Karate-do.

I feel like our Seido people might have an all-too common mindset of many in Aikido: Considerate, compliant, and earnest with strong emphasis in safety, but not enough focus on practical karate.

sakumeikan
03-22-2011, 06:35 PM
I would suggest that Shotokai would be a good choice for Aikidoka. Master Harada is a wonderful example of a karate exponent/karate teacher.
Joe.

Michael Varin
03-23-2011, 01:19 AM
Why does one seek karate training if they are training in aikido?

Flintstone
03-24-2011, 08:12 AM
Why does one seek karate training if they are training in aikido?
To complement a serious lack of skill due to a (traditionally) flawed transmission.

grondahl
03-24-2011, 08:16 AM
The in the case of the op; apparantly because he finds it rewarding enough on itīs own.

Is there some kind of rule against enjoing other activities if you train aikido?

Hellis
03-24-2011, 08:40 AM
I would suggest that Shotokai would be a good choice for Aikidoka. Master Harada is a wonderful example of a karate exponent/karate teacher.
Joe.

I totally agree.

In 1963 Kenshiro Abbe Sensei invited Mitsusuke Harada Sensei to Britain. Harada Sensei was a direct student of Gichin Funakoshi Sensei....Harada Sensei was given mat space at the Hut Dojo to help him get established, I trained personally with him as there were no students in the beginning, Harada Sensei took a keen interest in Aikido, I would teach him some Aikido and he in turn would teach me Karate, he actually applied some Aikido into his Karate, developing his own style of " ShotoKai Karate "...Harada Sensei had been a bodyguard to the Emperor

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com

David Yap
04-21-2011, 03:02 AM
...Harada Sensei had been a bodyguard to the Emperor.

This is new to me :)

One time I watched Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido, his real result was throwing someone without touching, so I doubted it but at the same time I was surprised. When I asked Mr.Egami about this, he said what I saw was very real. So I asked Egami -- "If someone attacked me with full power and I came in at the right time with oizuki; would it possible for me to make them fall over without physically touching them?" Egami replied, that he thought it was possible and agitated me to practise and research until I could successfully achieve such a result. His words got me thinking and I remembered what in Yoshitaka's case, he did, when blackbelts attacked him. from Harada sensei's interview.

The full interview is here http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/viewArticle.php?article=6&page=1

It is interesting to know that Shigeru Egami, the late chief instructor of Shotokai Japan had also trained with Noriaki Inoue, O Sensei's nephew (Aikido's forgotten pioneer).

David Yap
04-21-2011, 03:25 AM
More, the influence of aikido in Shotokai karate:

http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/viewArticle.php?article=5&page=3

Hellis
04-21-2011, 06:46 AM
This is new to me :)

One time I watched Ueshiba Sensei's Aikido, his real result was throwing someone without touching, so I doubted it but at the same time I was surprised. When I asked Mr.Egami about this, he said what I saw was very real. So I asked Egami -- "If someone attacked me with full power and I came in at the right time with oizuki; would it possible for me to make them fall over without physically touching them?" Egami replied, that he thought it was possible and agitated me to practise and research until I could successfully achieve such a result. His words got me thinking and I remembered what in Yoshitaka's case, he did, when blackbelts attacked him. from Harada sensei's interview.

The full interview is here http://www.karatedoshotokai.com/viewArticle.php?article=6&page=1

It is interesting to know that Shigeru Egami, the late chief instructor of Shotokai Japan had also trained with Noriaki Inoue, O Sensei's nephew (Aikido's forgotten pioneer).

David

I am not sure how to add a photo here :blush:

I have added the photo of Harada Sensei riding as a bodyguard on the Japanese Emperors car..The photo can now be seen top of page at.

Aikido Articleshttp://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/


Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Tony Wagstaffe
04-21-2011, 03:05 PM
I also feel that goju ryu would be a good alternative to as they have grappling techniques similar to aikido.
I think that aikido has elements of all martial arts as they are all fundamentally the same...