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tim evans
07-06-2009, 11:32 PM
Hey guys first post and a weird question on shomenuchi irriminage how fast or slow do I bring uke around and when I irrimi in do I cut his arm to my thigh then tenkan or grab his arm and lead him around?thanks:)

Janet Rosen
07-06-2009, 11:35 PM
It should be as fast or slow as it needs to be for you to be accurate.
As for the rest of the details, different schools/styles vary, so best to check with your instructor or a senior student.

roman naly
07-07-2009, 05:59 AM
depends how fast or slow he attacks

Nick P.
07-07-2009, 07:25 AM
Was talking about speed with another student last night at class; if you throw your uke so fast you cant stay connected with them, then that is clearly too fast.

I second Janet's opinion, and would add to go slower and slower until you can just make it work, and work there for a while. Slowly bring a little more speed over the following months, and occasionally, revisit how slow you can do it.

Or I could be completely wrong....:hypno:

NagaBaba
07-07-2009, 10:23 AM
Forget about tenkaning around, it is good only to the sissies. Cut him stright down like a thunder and unify him with a tatami as strong as you can. This is a Way of Aikido.

tim evans
07-07-2009, 10:50 PM
Forget about tenkaning around, it is good only to the sissies. Cut him stright down like a thunder and unify him with a tatami as strong as you can. This is a Way of Aikido.

The street version without the tenkan would work but my uke or sensei would not like it in the dojo.

Mark Uttech
07-07-2009, 11:53 PM
Onegaishimasu. I think the first thing shomenuchi iriminage teaches is how to step aside. One hand one uke's hip, and one hand on his/her head, and it's all over.

In gassho,

Mark

NagaBaba
07-08-2009, 10:02 AM
The street version without the tenkan would work but my uke or sensei would not like it in the dojo.
Hi Tim,
As you can notice, I was talking about tatami and not about the street. :eek: I believe the iriminage without tenkan is very valid, particulary during the test. Your instructor never taught it in your dojo?

Basia Halliop
07-08-2009, 10:12 AM
As you can notice, I was talking about tatami and not about the street. I believe the iriminage without tenkan is very valid, particulary during the test. Your instructor never taught it in your dojo?

I'm not sure how you'd show 'an omote and an ura version of every technique' without some tenkans? For me, those were part of the requirements of my tests starting from 5th kyu.

dalen7
07-08-2009, 11:36 AM
I'm not sure how you'd show 'an omote and an ura version of every technique' without some tenkans? For me, those were part of the requirements of my tests starting from 5th kyu.

It seems the thing that has frustrated many of the beginners is the realization that for some reason ura isnt working in a particular situation where 'pressure' is applied.

Fact is every technique does not work for every scenario...sure we learn it, but for the most part there are specific instances where ura makes more sense then omote... [or vice versa]

Tsuki Csudan is a good example of where Kote Gaeshi Ura works better than omote...at speed. [not just me with my 2 years of experience, but my instructor with 10+ years experience agrees.] ;)


Forget about tenkaning around, it is good only to the sissies. Cut him stright down like a thunder and unify him with a tatami as strong as you can. This is a Way of Aikido.

As far as this, I would tend to agree. If you have a stubborn strong uke, your not going to tenkan him regardless of your beautifully centered move. Once this happened at a seminar, and our 5th degree Sensei came up and showed me a move to nail him to the ground...

I think if you know what your Sensei expects, then you have more flexibility in testing...but it does take awhile to get used to it.

The key thing for your first test is to take it slow and do it correct. Even in higher kyu ranks, one of the senseis watching told the guys to slow down... [speed is good and necessary, and more than appreciated where we train] but for lower to mid kyu they want to make sure you have the steps and concepts of what is working and why.

If you think about speed, you wont execute the technique correctly... or rather, let it flow naturally.

Good luck on your test. :)

Peace

dAlen

tim evans
07-08-2009, 04:30 PM
Hi Tim,
As you can notice, I was talking about tatami and not about the street. :eek: I believe the iriminage without tenkan is very valid, particulary during the test. Your instructor never taught it in your dojo?

He has taught it that way but being new and trying to figure all the little things that go along with the technique is quite intimidating to say the least but I wiil slow down and breathe .thanks everyone

tim evans
09-03-2009, 02:16 PM
I have hit a wall on this technique and need some advice how do you deal with a much bigger and taller person.

Janet Rosen
09-03-2009, 02:59 PM
I'm 5 foot 2 so except for kids most all attackers are taller than me. It generally requires being patient and letting the attacker come to me, otherwise I would be overextending and off balance. If the attacker is attacking ME and not some amorphous not-me over .....there then eventually he's in range.

tim evans
09-03-2009, 06:52 PM
I'm 5 foot 2 so except for kids most all attackers are taller than me. It generally requires being patient and letting the attacker come to me, otherwise I would be overextending and off balance. If the attacker is attacking ME and not some amorphous not-me over .....there then eventually he's in range.

So when I enter behind him should I be a foot or so behind him so when I grab the back of the gi to bring him to my shoulder he,s leaning off balance?

dps
09-03-2009, 08:01 PM
This is a 'Shomenuchi Iriminage' YouTube clip of Yamada Sensei's video "Aikido The Power and The Basics" Volume 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pst3IiCe8w

Since your dojo is USAF under Yamada Sensei I would recommend you buy the three volume set.

http://marketplace.aikidoonline.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=31

David

tim evans
09-03-2009, 09:33 PM
This is a 'Shomenuchi Iriminage' YouTube clip of Yamada Sensei's video "Aikido The Power and The Basics" Volume 1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pst3IiCe8w

Since your dojo is USAF under Yamada Sensei I would recommend you buy the three volume set.

http://marketplace.aikidoonline.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=31

David
I have watched it a lot but I,m still having trouble with taller ukes do I need to concentrate on the circular movement of the technique itself

dps
09-03-2009, 11:32 PM
I have watched it a lot but I,m still having trouble with taller ukes do I need to concentrate on the circular movement of the technique itself

Watch the video and notice that Yamada's right arm and hand moves at the same time his right leg and foot moves and his left arm and left hand move at the same time his left leg and foot does.

If you lift the weight off of your right leg and twist your hips to the left your right leg and arm will move forward. If you twist your hips to the right your right arm and leg will move backward.

If you lift the weight off your left leg and twist your hips to the right your left leg and arm moves forward. If you twist your hips to the left your left arm and leg moves backward.

Synchronize your movements with uke's and move the legs and arms with the hips.

Of course uke has attack like he/she means it even if it is a slow attack.

David

Shadowfax
09-04-2009, 07:18 AM
Bring him down to your level.

I spent an hour last night just working on this technique. It is on my upcoming test as well. One thing we focused on for me was as I entered in behind uke I needed to settle a bit. Kind of lower myself and bring uke down with me with my hands on his shoulder and elbow. It actually begins to take uke off balance right there making the throw kind of inevitable.
I know it seems counter intuitive to lower yourself when you are already shorter then Uke but it actually does work if you get that connection with him and bring him with you.

tim evans
09-04-2009, 08:32 AM
Watch the video and notice that Yamada's right arm and hand moves at the same time his right leg and foot moves and his left arm and left hand move at the same time his left leg and foot does.

If you lift the weight off of your right leg and twist your hips to the left your right leg and arm will move forward. If you twist your hips to the right your right arm and leg will move backward.

If you lift the weight off your left leg and twist your hips to the right your left leg and arm moves forward. If you twist your hips to the left your left arm and leg moves backward.

Synchronize your movements with uke's and move the legs and arms with the hips.

Of course uke has attack like he/she means it even if it is a slow attack.

David
The way we have been doing it slow... slower than normal this could be the problem the energys not there for the technique.

Voitokas
09-04-2009, 11:28 AM
For me it helps, once I have their center held down to mine, to think of pushing uke around the circle rather than pulling him. But, as dps said, uke has to attack like they mean it; with their whole body and not just the arm - otherwise you're trying to pull them down to your level rather than keeping them there...

tim evans
09-04-2009, 08:46 PM
For me it helps, once I have their center held down to mine, to think of pushing uke around the circle rather than pulling him. But, as dps said, uke has to attack like they mean it; with their whole body and not just the arm - otherwise you're trying to pull them down to your level rather than keeping them there...

I had a unique oppurtunity today to work on this technique with the instructor 1 on 1 since I was the only 1 at class the bringing then down to your level helped tremendously also got some tips on other techniques that would have took years to get, thanks to all.:)

John Longford
09-05-2009, 01:42 PM
Hi Tim,
Obviously as Janet said at the beginning of the thread there are different ways this is taught. The way I teach is to take the back of the neck/Gi with your forearm tight across the Uke's back and the elbow approxiamately at his/her kidneys. Lock the chin against your other bicep with the arm pointing up. Push your hips back as if you were performing the hasso with the Jo. This gives you the opening to step behind the Uke as you bring your arm in an arc down. Hope this makes sense.
Don't worry too much, I was told when I started in 1980 that Irimi was a 20 year technique. Not true, I am still not satisfied with it!

Walter Martindale
09-05-2009, 04:19 PM
Not sure, but at practice last week one of our dojo's senior students who's been at Nagoya for 4 years with Sawada described one way of doing the iriminage. It looked like (and he described it a bit like) latching on to uke as you do (whether it's palming his/her neck to press the head to your shoulder or grabbing the back of the gi collar) and while attached to uke, lowering your centre (bending your legs) and essentially falling backwards yourself, while turning - this brings uke with you, and the turning allows you to recover your own balance, and makes it harder for uke to regain his/hers. Naturally, all the cutting movements of the other arm stay similar to whatever is done in a "normal" (whatever that is) iriminage.

We have a variety of instructors from a variety of backgrounds - some are direct as suggested by Nagababa and others are circular and flowing. Don't all have a place?
Cheers,
Walter
I think.

tim evans
09-05-2009, 10:36 PM
Not sure, but at practice last week one of our dojo's senior students who's been at Nagoya for 4 years with Sawada described one way of doing the iriminage. It looked like (and he described it a bit like) latching on to uke as you do (whether it's palming his/her neck to press the head to your shoulder or grabbing the back of the gi collar) and while attached to uke, lowering your centre (bending your legs) and essentially falling backwards yourself, while turning - this brings uke with you, and the turning allows you to recover your own balance, and makes it harder for uke to regain his/hers. Naturally, all the cutting movements of the other arm stay similar to whatever is done in a "normal" (whatever that is) iriminage.

We have a variety of instructors from a variety of backgrounds - some are direct as suggested by Nagababa and others are circular and flowing. Don't all have a place?
Cheers,
Walter
I think.
The main thing that was emphasized to me was control the head and bring them down to my level even with all the differrent aikido styles basics are basics

Kabura
10-04-2009, 10:42 PM
in our dojo for the 5 kyu exam they only want you to do the shomenuchi iriminage tenkan Our sensei told us do not use the other way

tim evans
10-04-2009, 10:53 PM
in our dojo for the 5 kyu exam they only want you to do the shomenuchi iriminage tenkan Our sensei told us do not use the other way

Tony, I like doing the ura better than the omote.

Kabura
10-07-2009, 02:36 AM
Tony, I like doing the ura better than the omote.

:o oppps I was thinking ura and typed tenkan

Walter Martindale
10-09-2009, 01:36 AM
in our dojo for the 5 kyu exam they only want you to do the shomenuchi iriminage tenkan Our sensei told us do not use the other way

At gokyu, yes, keep to the basics, do as dojo sensei recommends.

Some say it starts to become "your" Aikido after about nidan or sandan; until then it's all basics... I can't say - not there yet.
Walter

bakersan960
02-14-2010, 06:39 PM
I have hit a wall on this technique and need some advice how do you deal with a much bigger and taller person.

It's in your mind! Wait till you learn suwari- waza. that will help greatly!