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Suru
06-25-2009, 02:19 PM
One of the Japanese words for trust is shinrai. Removing the r, it's shinai. When training with shinai rather than bokken, the diminished fear opens the door to increased trust. People who begin Aikido training become increasingly comfortable with strangers. With someone new, there is no guarantee that, for example, he doesn't know his own strength, he will train quickly and recklessly, causing injury or worse, or that perhaps on some paranoid level, this person wants to hurt / injure / maim / kill. This may be the most significant triumph achieved by Aikikeiko that I have felt and observed. There is therefore a direct correlation between experience in Aikido and trust of unknown training partners. This may well lead to a best-scenario increased trust, and worst-scenario blind trust in strangers in life outside the dojo.

When I was on a Boy Scout camp out in the Everglades, The main scoutmaster called my name and two others. This man is one of the most sincere and genuine nice guys I'd ever known. So, he told us that he needed a "left-handed smoke-shifter." We scouts had never heard of such a device, but we walked miles to another camping troop, asking their leader if he had one. He told us to try the troop down the way, and luckily that leader told us that there's no such thing; it's an old scout leader trick. So we returned, dejected. I was upset at out leader, then got a little laugh and became upset with myself for the blind trust.

The fact is, we can't trust everyone in the world all the time. I think we learned that in kindergarten. But, I feel that Aikido builds so much intuition, and erases so many superfluous fears, that these intertwined benefits are at least part of the sine qua non of non-martial advantages of our training.

Drew

Janet Rosen
06-25-2009, 02:33 PM
This may be the most significant triumph achieved by Aikikeiko that I have felt and observed. There is therefore a direct correlation between experience in Aikido and trust of unknown training partners.
Drew
This is a real YMMV, because that is emphatically not true in my world. As an older person with disabilities the more I train the more I have concern about unknown partners.

Suru
06-25-2009, 03:39 PM
What does YMMV mean?

What are the reasons you feel a negative correlation instead of what I speak of a positive correlation?

Why not blend in your potential next reply in a more ki-no-musubi way?

Drew

Janet Rosen
06-25-2009, 03:53 PM
YMMV = your mileage may vary
I thought my answer was specific enough and I'm sorry if it wasn't blendy enough to suit you.

Suru
06-25-2009, 04:15 PM
YMMV = your mileage may vary
I thought my answer was specific enough and I'm sorry if it wasn't blendy enough to suit you.

This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.

"[Should you lose The Way, you will no doubt enter a 'dark path.' Give no reign to the spiritual horse.]"

~O'Sensei

Drew

Carsten Möllering
06-25-2009, 04:26 PM
Moin
as we say here

This is a real YMMV, because that is emphatically not true in my world. As an older person with disabilities the more I train the more I have concern about unknown partners.Yes! It's not true in my world either.
And even as a young person (43 ;) ) with some abillities and experience it is very important to be cautious about unknown partners.

@ Drew:
If someone understands aikido as to hammer you into the tatami and you don't know him or her, practice might be difficult if you can't fall what he/she throws.
I experienced a lot of such situations.
And a lot of "Shit, I can't really practice." of my partners when I wasn't able to fall what they wanted to throw.
Also I have been injured ba partners who didn't realize I couldn't fall what they throwed.

And I am aware that not everyody can take the ukemi I demand when I teach. That simple.

Carsten

Please excuse my bad english.

Suru
06-25-2009, 04:42 PM
Well there are so far two dots way outside the best-fit correlation line, to be ignored. A poll might show us the general trend, if Jun would be interested in posting one. "Has your intuition and accuracy of trust of new, unknown training partners increased along with keiko experience?"

Drew

dps
06-25-2009, 05:29 PM
Another dot way outside the best-fit correlation line.

When training with shinai rather than bokken, the diminished fear opens the door to increased trust.

And if you trained with styrofoam pool noodles (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=pool+noodle&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=) that door would open further.

Have someone in your dojo take a serious whack at you with a bokken or outside the dojo with a baseball bat and see that door swing shut.

As far as trusting strangers: I have some secluded waterfront property in southern Florida for sell. Send me a check and its yours, trust me.:straightf

David

lbb
06-25-2009, 05:44 PM
This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.

Did you start this thread in order to pick a fight? Because that's exactly what you appear to be doing.

(in the most blendy, harmonious, I-am-not-attacking-you-I-am-merely-using-your-negative-energy-against-you, aikiholy way possible, of course).

Suru
06-25-2009, 05:49 PM
There are enough Aikidoka on this website to have a large sample size vote on the enlightenment or delusion of my optimism. I wish we could start polls, because this would make a good one. My hope is that Jun will place one.

Although you were being a disrespectful smart ass, David, what you said made me laugh. I used to use those foam noodles to punish my 170 pound great dane. If I even walked toward the closet where I stored them, he would uncharacteristically cower backward and display total fear. A live katana would have probably not fazed him.

Drew

Chris Li
06-25-2009, 06:14 PM
And if you trained with styrofoam pool noodles (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=pool+noodle&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=) that door would open further.

http://www.aikidoohana.org/ohana-albums/index.php?album=2006%20TAO%20Photos&page=6

:)

Best,

Chris

Michael Hackett
06-25-2009, 06:20 PM
Lessee here.....we are to take great stock on the subject of trust from a man who "punished" his dog into cowering? Naw, I don't think so.

I've trained with many folks who were careful and sensible practitioners and I learned to trust them through experience. I've also trained with some that were dangerous human beings. Ellis Amdur Sensei wrote about one of his experiences with a senior yudansha in this very same context.

Sorry, and although I may be banished from the campfire of goodness and light, I'm really big on trusting and verifying. When I'm training with a stranger, I am very careful to protect myself until I am absolutely confident that my partner is trustworthy in his conduct.

I can see the light, I swear. I'm just afraid to approach.

Suru
06-25-2009, 06:59 PM
"How are you going to ever find your place, running in an artificial pace" -Gin Blossoms. There are plenty of competitive sports out there, for all levels. I hope you all will discover suitable ones, more worthy of your mentalities. Aikido's main drawback is that, while great at keeping positive people positive, it rarely succeeds at turning negative people positive.

Drew

Janet Rosen
06-25-2009, 07:01 PM
Anger was perceived by the receptors of the OP and not sent out by me. My initial reply disagreed in a totally neutral way. SO I was surprised and amused/bemused at being chastised by "Why not blend in your potential next reply in a more ki-no-musubi way?" as if one needs to to preface every disagreement with a make-nice statement like "You are right, but...." in order to blend or be polite. I found that a pretty audacious assumption and contrary to the spirit of the OP itself vis a vis openness and trust. And validates my lifelong habit of looking out for being blindsided by the weirdness of strangers.

Shadowfax
06-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Due to life experiences I don't trust easily....

that said one of the first things I learned about Aikido besides there was such a thing was that part of it's philosophy is to make your enemy into your friend.

A stranger you don't trust is your enemy.... make him your friend and then trust him and train with him. Seems simple to me.

If I am concerned that someone, I have not partnered before, will throw me in a way I am not ready for I stop him or I make sure to tell him at the beginning I need him to go slow. So far I have not had a problem. Or Am I simply blessed with a dojo full of unusually sympathetic aikidoka?

Sometimes its best to not think too hard... just train. Thinking only gets in the way of learning when it comes to physical things.

dps
06-25-2009, 09:28 PM
http://www.aikidoohana.org/ohana-albums/index.php?album=2006%20TAO%20Photos&page=6

:)

Best,

Chris

Thank You Chris.

David:)

jss
06-26-2009, 03:31 AM
There is therefore a direct correlation between experience in Aikido and trust of unknown training partners.
With increased experience and thus skill, I don't find I trust unknown training partners more. What has increased is the trust in my own skill to prevent me from getting hurt. There are less and less situations in which I won't be able to handle myself.
Or as Dutch martial artist once said (paraphrasing a bit here): verbal deescalation is obviously the best way to go, but it's comforting to know I have a more than good chance to kick their ass if they do get violent. :)

For instance, when my partner us using too much force, I am sensitive enough to anticipate his movements and never allow him to use force. It's a shame this means I have to prevent him from actually practicing aikido in this way and I am more than willing to explain, discuss, etc. the issue, but I will protect myself first.

SeiserL
06-26-2009, 06:36 AM
You can always trust people to be who they are, not who you would like them to be.

Ron Tisdale
06-26-2009, 08:37 AM
What does YMMV mean?

What are the reasons you feel a negative correlation instead of what I speak of a positive correlation?

Why not blend in your potential next reply in a more ki-no-musubi way?

Drew

I've read the thread, and know the posters you are quarelling with by their other posts on this and other boards. Personally, I think you are way out of line here. Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

One of the things I do when I feel threatened on the mat is to take a breather in seiza facing my partner, and try to coordinate my breathing with theirs. It often helps achieve that ki-no-musubi / fitting together with my partner when we perform rei and start training again. It also helps me to get past whatever just occurred, and start fresh.

Sometimes it helps in my internet posting as well. I highly recommend it.

Best,
Ron (I don't think I'm going to touch the making an animal that is a pet fear me thingy...I'm not sure I am advanced or mature enough to blend with that yet)

ruthmc
06-26-2009, 09:02 AM
I agree with Joep,

It is your trust in your own ability to take whatever your partner throws at you that increases with experience :)

Having built that up within myself to a reasonable degree before the car accident, I have now had to take a huge step backwards as I'm carrying a permanent injury from said accident which means I can no longer take hard falls. :(

As a result, my confidence has decreased. I am careful with everybody I train with. I can no longer attend seminars because the other students don't know about my limitations. I will not be grading again.

However, I am extremely positive about being able to train again, as I really missed Aikido!

Every class is a gift, and I enjoy my mat time to the fullest :)

Sensei will not allow me to come to harm at the hands of anyone else in his dojo - that is where I place my trust now :cool:

Ruth

Suru
06-26-2009, 09:58 AM
You can always trust people to be who they are, not who you would like them to be.

"...I feel that Aikido builds so much intuition..."

Lynn, I agree with your statement, and since any major form of telepathy probably does not exist, the intuition I have gained over the past decade I attribute highly to Aikido training along with everyday life experience. It takes intuition to get a good concept of "who they are" so I then can trust them to be that way. I have found a big test of intuition while being uke for various sensei. During these precious times, I have had to focus hard since I don't know what the techniques are going to be. Whether or not this builds intuition, I believe it does.

Drew

George S. Ledyard
06-26-2009, 10:22 AM
This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.

"[Should you lose The Way, you will no doubt enter a 'dark path.' Give no reign to the spiritual horse.]"

~O'Sensei

Drew

Drew,
Aside from the "kick me" sign displayed subconsciously in your response to Janet...sure there was no reason.

Your statements were categorical and sanctimonious and when Janet pointed out that her experience (and, I am sure, that of many, many others) contradicted what you had stated, you whip out some even more sanctimonious O-Sensei quote. This is just the kind of stuff that acts like blood i the water for the sharks...
- George

NagaBaba
06-26-2009, 10:31 AM
. People who begin Aikido training become increasingly comfortable with strangers.
Drew
I'd say it depends how you practice. There are situations where you are going on the tatami with the same spirit as going to the battle.
The only trust is your lucky star.

C. David Henderson
06-26-2009, 11:10 AM
I'm also much slower to heal than I once was, and I am also cautious training with unknown partners.

For me, not fearing to practice with an unknown partner is not the same as, and does not require, feeling trust towards that person. It's more about being in the moment.

And, although I trust myself more over time to take care of myself, I know I may be hurt. That's actually something that I find helpful in training in keeping my mind focused.

YMMV

Dan Richards
06-26-2009, 12:33 PM
(pulls up a chair and enjoys some hot-buttered popcorn)

Suru
06-26-2009, 01:18 PM
My general feeling toward the first reply was that it was -to a small degree- a blunt and dismissively discourteous reply, considering the time I spent formulating what I believed would be a thoughtful, self-revealing, and heartfelt thread. I made myself vulnerable, half-expecting people would appreciate that rather than see an opening to attack. I suppose now that many of the other threads were written at least partially in defense of the woman. Once in awhile, posts that are clear to me to be insidiously insulting, annoy me enough to directly call the person on it. Sneaky insults are just as bad as direct ones, and I decided to employ the futility of fighting fire with fire on this thread, while sincerely speaking my mind all along.

It doesn't matter to me whether you keep this thread open or not, but do realize that when someone tells me I'm an animal abuser without knowing even a tenth of the facts, I get pissed.

Drew

Erick Mead
06-26-2009, 01:42 PM
-- "Trouble at t'mill. One on't crossbeams gone owt 'skew on treadle."

-- .....

If you get --- you get it.
;)

C. David Henderson
06-26-2009, 02:18 PM
I suppose now that many of the other threads were written at least partially in defense of the woman.
Drew

I can understand and sympathize with feeling angry at a perceived gratuitous swipe.

I hope, though, you will observe that many posts expressed agreement with some or all of the content of the original response to which you initially took offense.

Many of these posts display no evidence of a perceived need by their posters to defend someone who, from all appearances, is quite capable of standing up for herself.

Accepting without question your sincerity, the OP nonetheless was framed in terms of general statements about the benefits of aikido practice, and not simply something of great value to you in your individual practice.

Rather than seeing the responses of people who disagree as motivated by an ulterior purpose, or as statistical outliers that may be ignored, one might see them as providing facts that are relevant to your theory as you stated it.

I guess the question is whether the ideas remain worth discussing.

Sincerely,

cdh

Ron Tisdale
06-26-2009, 03:02 PM
Hi Drew...keep in mind that Janet never did that. The whole animal thing came into play as a result of **your own words** later.

I am more than willing to drop that portion...too heavy a load for me to carry in any case.

I do sincerely believe that you mis-read Janet, but you know what? We can always just start over...same as on the mat.

Best,
Ron

Suru
06-26-2009, 04:04 PM
I appreciate your posts, David and Ron. Ron, I usually have fun reading what you write, because even when it's not beneficial in a serious way, you just have a fun sense of humor. David, I think you're mostly correct with your remarks. I just hope everyone realizes that it's not my way to pick on disabled women or dogs.

Actually, with the great dane, that was my brother's dog when we both lived in Tallahassee over a decade ago. When Captain was pretty young, he would chew up my brother's wallet or such, or use his apartment as a restroom. The noodle was really for one of the same three human forms of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment. I was attending FSU, and mostly doing my own thing, including taking up Aikido. But every now and then, I'd end up at my brother's and his girlfriend's place. She had a pit bull with a somewhat annoying teething fetish, even at one or two years old. Anyway, my brother always made sure not to go within a close distance to the closet o' foam noodle, unless Captain in fact needed to be punished. I think positive or negative reinforcement are the best, but I suppose sometimes punishment is the most effective option, the less traumatizing the better. But oh, Cappy did hate that closet!

As far as Janet's post, mostly it was a matter of me contemplating and forming what I thought would be a really though-provoking (not anger-provoking) thread. I suppose the first reply being informative, but with initials I didn't recognize and the word, "emphatically," that it was a system shock for me. I thought my gut was really onto something. Maybe it was, and she just begged to differ. Also, I knew what I meant by "trust," but after re-evaluating my wording, I believe either others - quite fairly - didn't know what to think, or thought I meant something else. I am steadily recovering from the bad feelings, will gather myself, and either start a new thread or make an effort to clarify this one. I like the discussions we have on Aikiweb, and the last thing I want to do is alienate myself from you guys and gals.

Drew

Ron Tisdale
06-26-2009, 04:18 PM
I like the discussions we have on Aikiweb, and the last thing I want to do is alienate myself from you guys and gals.

Or we from you! Thanks for taking this so well...I don't know that I would, but I'd like to hope so. Looking forward to the continuation or the new thread.

Best,
Ron

C. David Henderson
06-26-2009, 04:49 PM
Hi Drew,

I do think your observations are worth further discussion, when you are ready.

One area where I think there may be some agreement is how becoming better able to take care of one's self in interactions that may have been fear inducing previously can clear the way to build trust between people over time.

But, for me, its one thing to say that I can take care of myself well enough that I'm willing to engage in a potentially dangerous activity (on or off the mat), and take the consequences that may come. That's different from trusting another person's intent or ability, or their understanding of the limits on my ability to stay safe.

An area where there may be disagreement (not to say you are wrong), is whether training can/should/does develop better intuition about how other people are going to behave. That's harder to say, from my point of view.

I also have to note, as I believe was discussed awhile back in a thread about buying donuts (I'm not making this up), martial arts training can also lead to an increased awareness of potential threat.

Does that lead to increased distrust?

cdh

Buck
06-26-2009, 09:18 PM
The thread is about trust and Aikido, Aikido being a Japanese martial art, I would say the trust has to be seen as well from how the Japanese define it. It is my understanding the Japanese don't trust per say as westerners think of it. It was told to me it had to do with the feudal period of Japan. This notion came from a discussion of a picture of O'Sensei posing looking very alert, and on guard, where the caption said something like O'Sensei never relaxed. Meaning he was on-guard and never trusted anyone- not to attack him. I don't know how accurate all that is, and how much of it is fact. I am saying that I see in this way, being on guard is a good training device- if handled properly.

I think there has to be trust (as defined by your favorite English language dictionary) in the dojo, I think Aikido is set up for that. But we don't live in a perfect world. When I was young and in band our school took a trip to some beach in California. We were told by a local adult host that we could go Snipe hunting. We were told to clap, then wave arms up and down and the caw loudly, then repeat until we got the attention of the bird. We where up and down that beach clapping, waving arms and cawing hunched over looking ridiculous trying to get a glimpse of a rare bird that never had existed. Yes, we got punked by adults, people we trusted, look to, obeyed, etc. When we were told it was a prank and Snipes never existed and it was something done to people who don't live in California we all were sad. I remember I never trusted people the same way again.

Point being is I think there is different shades of trust. In the English language trust applies to many things, and it has many different shades and varieties. Trust is necessary for group dynamics to function optimally and successfully. Trust is needed for the most basic of human interactions to complex interpersonal relationships. These are just a few examples of the myriad dimensions of trust.

I think it is in the degree of trust, and the risk that goes with that. The longer you know someone the more you are apt to trust them if the relationship is positive. The less likely you will trust someone if the relationship is starts off or at some point becomes uncomfortable, awkward, and other like things. What are we willing to risk is what sets the level of trust.

If I trust someone in the dojo not to hurt me, then the degree of trust is high because of the risk of injury presented. It is parallel to that trust exercise where you have some one behind you, you trust to catch you and prevent you from falling and hitting the ground. It is an un-nerving exercise with a person you barely know - in some cases someone you know well. Because the risk of injury- a part of self-preservation, and the unwanted experience of pain and bodily damage- is a great risk that out weighs the idea of trust.

Going to the other side of the coin, the lower the risk the greater trust and its readily given. If I work with a partner with a basic technique (a modeled exercise of a technique) that has no throw and little or no risk of injury, an exchange that I can control then there will be a higher degree of trust because the risk of injury in so low between the both of us.

Risk dictates, how I see it, the degree of trust, when it is in the dojo. But not everyone sees it that way and doesn't consider risk, and gives openly to anyone trust for various reasons. Even though the result of the risk isn't a good out-come. For instance, take the trust exercise I described, say the person doesn't catch the falling person. The falling person gets up injured and says lets try that again. Once again the result is the same. I think it is a must to allow risk to dictate the degree of trust when it comes to the dojo.

I think some people based on their own interpretation of philosophy of Aikido provide a standard high degree of trust without taking in the risk, just as I described getting injured and repeating the exercise again. I don't think having "blind trust" in Aikido is a good thing, unless you have experience with your training partners. Foster a "blind trust" as a part of the dojo culture presented to new students because it is the way of Aikido is a good idea.

We all know of how Sensei's have taken advantage of students both veteran and new. So really who can you trust, and are you a person that can be trusted.

As a new student, I would feel more comfortable with a dojo who didn't give trust so readily. And didn't ask me to give trust so readily. Of course this goes with out saying time.

Mary Eastland
06-26-2009, 09:30 PM
i trust myself...after i get to know you i decide if i trust you.....

on another note....once the bartender at a new job sent me into the kitchen for dehydrated water....the cook sent me back to tell him he didn't have any...it took me about three trips before i caught on.
Mary

Janet Rosen
06-26-2009, 10:04 PM
We were told by a local adult host that we could go Snipe hunting...... Snipes never existed and it was something done to people who don't live in California

So the really funny thing is....there are several species of bird called snipe (http://images.google.com/images?q=snipe&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi) and I see at least a couple every time I go birding at our local wetland not a 5 minute drive from my house.

Buck
06-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Now it seems, I was double punked. So easy to do to trusting kids.

dps
06-26-2009, 10:34 PM
I like the discussions we have on Aikiweb, and the last thing I want to do is alienate myself from you guys and gals.

Does this mean the check's in the mail ?

David :)

Suru
06-26-2009, 10:56 PM
Thanks to all your offerings of generous human kindness, I plan on getting back to this thread tomorrow. I believe yin-yang really exists in people. I've been learning for a long time, but it's still not ingrained enough, that I can bring out the best or worst in the same person, and vice-versa.

Drew

Linda Eskin
06-27-2009, 01:09 AM
...once the bartender at a new job sent me into the kitchen for dehydrated water....the cook sent me back to tell him he didn't have any...it took me about three trips before i caught on.
Mary

When you are a new flight student it's either a reel of flight line, or a bottle of prop wash. ;-)

Linda

Linda Eskin
06-27-2009, 01:36 AM
I agree that we do get more comfortable with strangers. I'd guess the same would be true of dance classes. "You two, hold hands!" It's not a normal way of interacting with people we don't know well, but it's fun, and mostly we're all here to support each other, and it works out well. At the same time, a single good injury can make one cautious about relying on another to watch out for one's own well being.

I wanted to introduce a thought here that I don't think I've seen brought up in this thread: malice vs. accident/ineptitude (or even vs. hazing/naughtiness, as in the case of the pranks). For me, the perceived motivation behind an incident makes an enormous difference.

If a friend loses their grip on the piece of furniture you are both moving, and as a result accidentally punches you in the nose, there's a much different feeling to that than if a stranger walks up and clobbers you out of the blue. Maybe the right words for kinds of trust don't quite exist. You would probably still "trust" your friend after such an incident, even if the injury from their punch were worse.

In the dojo, we have to be careful to alert people to our level of competence and fitness. Even so, friendly, well-intentioned partners may hurt us, simply because they are not skilled enough to control their technique, and not knowlegeable enough to understand their limitations. (I say "they" but I'm probably solidy in that group. I'm trying by best to not hurt anyone...) What we feel toward these people might not quite be covered by "mistrust." Maybe we need a new word. Something along the lines of cautious optimism?

I have dealt with the same issue with horses. My critters are all very friendly. Not a mean bone in any of them. But they might hurt you through some enthusiastically friendly gesture, or by accident in a moment of confusion. I trust them, but I do keep an eye out for my own safefy. It's an entirely different feeling being around a horse who you know will take a chunk out of you if you drop your guard. The former is (I hope) what we would mostly experience from fellow students, while the latter has no place in a dojo.

Anyway, Drew, I just figured I throw that into the pot for tomorrow.

Cheers,
Linda

Suru
06-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Hi Drew,

martial arts training can also lead to an increased awareness of potential threat.

Does that lead to increased distrust?

cdh

This is an excellent point you bring up, David. I had never studied the martial arts. Then one night, a decade ago, after I had just broken up with the only girl with whom I've been in love, mainly because we had started some nasty fighting that hit me so deep inside I couldn't take it, my brother and I were walking Captain (you should be familiar with our late, gentle giant by now), and when I get this stream-of-consciousness, it can result in a run-on sentence, and my brother asked me if I had ever heard of Aikido. He's never done martial arts; he's more of a weight-trainer. I said, "[No, what's that]?" He said it was a martial art that his friend's dad has been doing for a long, long time, even with his own dojo in his backyard. So I asked him to tell me more about this Aikido. He said it's about using the attacker's own strength against him. I believe this now to be a cliched description of our art. At the time, that was really mysterious to me (and still is), and I thought that an extracurricular activity would help distract me from the painful ending of the intimate relationship. Then I said to him that I felt a martial art might make me suspicious of every person I saw, constantly and uncomfortably ready to use what I would be spending so much time learning. Basically, I was worried it might turn my neutral feelings toward strangers or loose acquaintances to the point of a mild, lingering paranoia.

After that winter break, I got back to FSU and read some articles/essays here on Aikiweb. This was the beginning of 1999. I printed them out and smiled from ear to ear as I read them in my apartment. With some nervous reserve, I stepped on the mat. My excellent group of sensei, combined with great people on the mat, made my transition, though still awkward, smoother than I thought it would be.

After some training, I noticed that my worry from guessing what others were thinking was usually unnecessary and inaccurate, so instead I remained alert toward their words and actions, the true revelations of thought, and blended with them. Evasion is always an option, sometimes the best one, but in the dojo there is little room for that. If someone's technique was too hard, I was ready for it with a quick reaction and tap/slap. I didn't know for a fact he would power-trip every time, but I do know that human beings are creatures of habit. Remembering what Lynn said, I can trust people to be who they are. Opposed to this is being an Aikidoka and therefore falsely assuming everyone loves you. So, whether Aikido acted as an impetus for my increased level of intuition, or if it could have happened with more intramural basketball to the same extent, I can't say. Maybe I approach confirmation bias when making a bold statement such as, "Aikido builds trust and intuition," or maybe there's some amount of truth to that. Do you all have any thoughts?

Drew

Michael Douglas
06-27-2009, 02:21 PM
This is a perfect example of intuition and level of trust. Since you are directly displaying anger toward me, for no apparent reason, I do not trust you much.
"[Should you lose The Way, you will no doubt enter a 'dark path.' Give no reign to the spiritual horse.]"~O'Sensei
This kind of vomit-inducing condescension really surprised me so I looked around a bit.
From this thread of January 2007 ;
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11715
We'd all do well to heed Mr.Künzang's advice;
I think it would be a good idea for all participants in this thread to review the (recent AikiWeb) topic of Bipolar Disorder (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11651) before getting too worked up about anything. It's always a good idea to avoid getting worked up if possible, and the aforementioned topic is a complex one. ...
Look, a smiley! : :)

Suru
06-27-2009, 08:47 PM
This kind of vomit-inducing condescension really surprised me so I looked around a bit.
From this thread of January 2007 ;
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11715
We'd all do well to heed Mr.Künzang's advice;

Look, a smiley! : :)

Hey! Condescension? I loved you in Wall Street! I think I'll call you Gecko from now on. Yes, I'll capitalize the "G" just for you. Is it fun to produce nothing and prey on those with a conscience?

By the way, 1 in 100 people have bipolar mood disorder, not excluding Abraham Lincoln, Ben Stiller, Carrie Fisher, Ernest Hemingway, probably O'Sensei, and oh so many more. Ironically, I have the same intelligence quotient as Lincoln - 150. Yeah, we're a great bunch who respond to ignorance such as the likes of yours with condescension to the point that you're a stupid animal while most people are human.

Puppy Love,
Drew

lbb
06-27-2009, 09:08 PM
Wow. Just...wow.

Michael Hackett
06-28-2009, 01:18 AM
I don't question your reported IQ of 150. If you say so, that's good enough. How in the world though, did they measure Lincoln's IQ since Binet didn't start his study on what became IQ testing until 1904?

Mashu
06-28-2009, 01:42 AM
How in the world though, did they measure Lincoln's IQ since Binet didn't start his study on what became IQ testing until 1904?

By comparing hat size. Lincoln is far superior as this picture clearly shows:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/764/lincolnhat.jpg

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Cox300.aspx

Michael Douglas
06-28-2009, 03:14 AM
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/764/lincolnhat.jpg
:eek:
So superior in fact that he's got his henchmen reaching for their guns!
Or maybe someone's been spotted approaching with a styrofoam pool-noodle and a superiority complex...

mathewjgano
06-28-2009, 03:47 AM
My view of trust comes through the filter of having parents who were both filled to the brim with love for me, bent over backwards for me in so many ways I owe them everything (near enough), yet also battled with their own issues which at times created truly bad situations; of friends who helped me when it wasn't always in their best interest and then lying to me or otherwise betraying me at other times when it was. I trust that good people do bad things and that bad people do good things and that no matter how intuitive or knowledgeable I may be, I trust that I cannot trust I will always perceive accurately, and being that I have to take that into account in every situation I'm in, it makes for some distrustful thinking.
...Or, expect the unexpected...though you can rest assured the normally-expected will then take precedence, right?
I think Aikido can lead to a greater sense of trust and intuition because it is interaction-based. Through the daily movements of our training, we can learn to recognize things for what they are. It's a subtle art, and obviously just going through the motions is meaningless, but it can be improved by being open-minded...interestingly enough it seems in order to make accurate presumptions (my take on trust) I've had to learn to presume little or nothing.
...and those aren't henchmen reaching for guns, they're just some of the earliest cases of the Napoleon complex.:D

Michael Hackett
06-28-2009, 10:28 AM
We continue through the Looking Glass.......

Keith Larman
06-28-2009, 11:34 AM
We continue through the Looking Glass.......

Ah, Alice...

"Everyone in Wonderland is mad, otherwise they wouldn't be down here" -- The Cheshire Cat if memory serves...

C. David Henderson
06-28-2009, 12:16 PM
If I were Dew, I imagine I would find it hard to trust people, and hard to trust my own perceptions of people.

I would find it valuable to find tools to overcome this.

If my Aikido practice proved helpful, I think I would highly value that aspect of my practice.

So, to the extent that "outing" him may have the effect of discrediting his perceptions, I'd offer the thought that, instead, it may contribute some context to understand his thoughts.

As Jung famously said of Freud's analysis of art, it is a mistake to reduce the product of the person's thought and creativity to a morbid symptom.

If I were Drew, I'd also be feeling pretty distrustful at having been "outed" the way that he was. Was his response all sweetness and light - no, but that's hardly surprising.

Its pretty ironic, though, that this all came up in a conversation about trust.

cdh

mathewjgano
06-28-2009, 02:18 PM
We continue through the Looking Glass.......

Well, life's a trip, man.....but what exactly do you mean? :confused:

mathewjgano
06-28-2009, 02:46 PM
...I imagine I would find it hard to trust people, and hard to trust my own perceptions of people.

If there's one thing I've learned from history, it's that this is probably very justified. I mean, really, how well does any of us know anyone else? We know only what we're presented and as such are confined by the parameters of how things are presented to us.
As it relates to Aikido, I trust more now both because I've spent some time training with a variety of people in a small variety of settings, "looking outwardly," and because I've observed myself in those interactions, "looking inwardly." I've achieved similar results in other activities of course, but there is something unique about allowing someone to twist your limbs around and figuring out how to maintain a degree of center while doing it.
At any rate, that's my thinking, FWIW.
Take care all!
Matt

Ron Tisdale
06-29-2009, 03:28 PM
I feel kind of badly that what was turning around is now back where it was. Drew had moved on from his earlier position, and so had the thread.

I wish people would read the whole thread before commenting sometimes. It would help...some of us put some real effort into the improvements. As did Drew.

Best,
Ron

This kind of vomit-inducing condescension really surprised me so I looked around a bit.
From this thread of January 2007 ;
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11715
We'd all do well to heed Mr.Künzang's advice;

Look, a smiley! : :)

Suru
06-30-2009, 04:50 PM
I appreciate the support.

By trust, I really can only go so far as either attending a new dojo, or newcomers entering a current dojo. As soon as I grab a wrist of a stranger, I must stay alert but still trust him / her not to perform a devastating technique. I've never distrusted a stranger to the point which I wouldn't train with him / her. And, I've never been hurt beyond a short time of my wrist being sensitive to nikkyo. As far as people in everyday society, my initial feeling is "hope for the best," which does not mean trust.

I believe what I was more interested in getting at is the concept of intuition, and how it relates to trust/distrust. Maybe two percent of people are completely benevolent, always placing service before self, society-first, absolute samurai types. Another 96% are anywhere from really close to that 2% to just barely above the 2% who are purely evil. I look at it like a standard normal (z) distribution. If you haven't taken stats class, I just mean a bell curve. In finance, we learned whether a corporation should approve a project or not. The methodical way is to see if the cost of capital (the cost of borrowing money) is less than the projected, present-valued returns. What surprised me is that one of my professors said not to ignore "gut instinct." We all know much more than we're aware we know, perhaps in our unconscious minds. He said that gut instincts are in fact more important than we might think. So, FSU FIN 4000 aside, I really want to know if Aikido enhances intuition and gets us more in touch with our "gut instincts" better than a substitute activity. This is really hard for me to answer in a "how much intuition have I gained from Aiki training," but I hope to hear Aikidokas' gut instincts as far as whether Aikido has increased intution, had no effect on intuition, or even decreased intuition. I know this is somewhat nebulous and qualitative, but what's your best guess?

Drew

lbb
06-30-2009, 05:17 PM
I really want to know if Aikido enhances intuition and gets us more in touch with our "gut instincts" better than a substitute activity. This is really hard for me to answer in a "how much intuition have I gained from Aiki training," but I hope to hear Aikidokas' gut instincts as far as whether Aikido has increased intution, had no effect on intuition, or even decreased intuition. I know this is somewhat nebulous and qualitative, but what's your best guess?

I think the answer depends on what you mean by "intuition" and "gut instinct". There's a good book called "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin de Becker, which is all about learning to listen to the intuition that tells you there's something wrong in a situation. Intuition, in this case, is the feeling that a situation is dangerous without being able to immediately point to something that tells you so. In the cases that de Becker recounts in the book, it's possible, with hindsight, to identify specific danger signs -- but when it was going down, all the victims had was a "feeling". The thing about this "intuition", though, is that (at least in my opinion) there's nothing mystical about it. You have the data, and your subconscious mind is adding it up and arriving at a total of "sketchy situation". You don't have conscious access to those facts and how they fit together, however, which is what makes the whole process of "intuition" seem magical to some. I think, instead, that intuition is a process of reasoning based on logic and fact. It's just not a conscious process.

By that definition, I think that aikido training can develop intuition, but I don't think that it helps you to get in touch with whatever intuition you already have. Aikido training gives you another bundle of facts that your subconscious can work on when problems present themselves: train for a while, and you'll have more knowledge about how people can move, what attacks a certain posture may indicate, etc. The end result is intuition that can serve you in more situations. Aikido training does not, however, help you to develop your intuition regarding situations that don't involve an active physical threat. It won't help your intuition when it comes to dealing with a co-worker who's showing signs of becoming violent, or walking into a bar and appraising the environment as friendly or hostile.

Hope that makes sense...

Suru
06-30-2009, 06:09 PM
Indeed, Mary, that does make much sense. So I gather that you feel in a martial situation, more and more Aikido training becomes more and more intuitively enriching. And that this occurs on a "subconscious" (unconscious) level. I still do wonder if perhaps Aikido training can play a part in increasing non-martial intuition. Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't. Although my gut says yes, it may be incorrect. Without input from other Aikidoka, my gut might be in a marching band, wondering why everyone else is out-of-step.

Drew

C. David Henderson
06-30-2009, 07:07 PM
I think to the extent our minds are full of noise, it's hard to tell intuition from anxiety (or whatever). I also think there are a number of art forms and athletic forms and spiritual practices that can turn down the noise, so when an "intuition" arises, it can be noticed. Martial arts training may be helpful in that regard.

cdh

lbb
06-30-2009, 07:19 PM
Hey Drew,

I suppose anything is possible, depending on your training. I don't get the sense that most aikido dojos really teach situational awareness, except on the micro-level: what to do when someone is physically attacking you with such-and-such motion. A lot of what was in de Becker's book is recognizing and dealing with threats that are much more subtle, e.g., a "helpful" stranger who insists on carrying your bags to your car even though you've said, "No thanks, I've got it," or a co-worker who is just a little too interested in the details of your life. I don't think aikido training, generally speaking, is going to develop your intuition in such situations...but I think it can help you with more physical situations outside the dojo.

For example, maybe three years after I'd first started training in martial arts (pre-aikido, this was), I took a new job and got assigned to a client that nobody else in the company wanted to deal with. In my first meeting with him, I realized that this guy, who was quite large, was crowding me and also kind of looming over me. Prior to training, I don't think I would have had that same awareness -- I would only have felt a vague unease, which my co-workers shared (this being why they didn't want to deal with this guy), and which I would have immediately dismissed as irrational. Nevertheless, he was using body language that signaled "threat". Realizing this, I also realized that the reason why he did it was because it had worked for him in the past -- clearly, it allowed him to dominate others and get his way. But I also realized that the "threat" was completely empty -- this was a business meeting, of course this guy wasn't going to haul off and belt me! So, I was able to remain relaxed and act as if the "threat" wasn't there -- because, effectively, it wasn't.

I have no idea if this guy was conscious of his behavior. I tend to think not -- my sense is that he was just a large person who had unconsciously come to associate certain body language on his part with certain behaviors on the part of others. After that first meeting, though, his whole body language changed, became much more relaxed and assumed a more appropriate distance. He may have gotten a bit of an amused, "I know what you're doing" from me, which may have helped the process along. It's hard to say when none of this is ever verbalized.

To bring it back to martial arts training, I think the physical training of martial arts made it possible for me to identify a threat: someone's size, their distance relative to me, how they're standing. I think it was off-the-mat intuition that let me put the whole picture together, to recognize the emptiness of the "threat" and to act accordingly.

mathewjgano
06-30-2009, 07:43 PM
I still do wonder if perhaps Aikido training can play a part in increasing non-martial intuition.

I think it can. I suppose it depends on which non-martial intuitions one might be talking about, but I would say body language alone applies to nearly any social interaction. Seeing what a person is looking at, where their hands are and how they're being held, etc. can tell you a lot about a person's state of mind. By focusing the attention on these things regularly, it starts to take on an automatic quality.
However, as a counter-example, I tend to be pretty self-conscious so I am often aware of these things in myself and have adjusted my behavior in the past to hide the way I was feeling or what I was thinking about. Some folks are harder to read than others.
In the past I have spent a lot of time working on my intuition, mostly through simply observing the things around me and comparing them to past observations and at times I would say I've been very intuitive; other times not so much, but the underlying relationship has always seemed to be how much mental effort I put into "reading" things. The human mind is constantly taking in information and processing it to find meaning...I think a good analogy might be that the conscious mind is just the tip of the iceburg. By constantly "widening" that perception in a calm, unattached, but purposeful way we can create an active feed from the larger portion of our mind. To my mind it's like softening the grip, but creating greater surface area (a broader connection) and just as aiki seems to demand high degrees of relaxation and intent to develop, so too does the intuition...or so I think, anyway.


...That is to say: what Mary said.

Suru
06-30-2009, 07:58 PM
Matthew, did I inspire your signature about noodles? Ha! Can you imagine a 170 pound animal never being the least bit physically harmed by them, yet dreading them?

I must have worded it better this time, because you all are offering great replies.

Has anyone been uke for a sensei, or even a mudansha when sensei couldn't come to class? I have found that that's when I've really got to focus extra hard. In those situations, the impending technique is unknown. Either kohai has achieved practical enlightenment and totally lives in the present, or kohai has to figure out quickly what sensei is about to unleash on him / her. I have found these precious times to truly test my focus, and perhaps intuition. Any thoughts?

Drew

mathewjgano
07-01-2009, 03:08 AM
Matthew, did I inspire your signature about noodles? Ha! Can you imagine a 170 pound animal never being the least bit physically harmed by them, yet dreading them?

I must have worded it better this time, because you all are offering great replies.

Has anyone been uke for a sensei, or even a mudansha when sensei couldn't come to class? I have found that that's when I've really got to focus extra hard. In those situations, the impending technique is unknown. Either kohai has achieved practical enlightenment and totally lives in the present, or kohai has to figure out quickly what sensei is about to unleash on him / her. I have found these precious times to truly test my focus, and perhaps intuition. Any thoughts?

Drew
Afraid of noodles?! That's hilarious! I've heard of a spaghetti monster in the sky...that sounds a little scary, lol. No, my quote is from the best movie in the world: Kung Fu Panda! Awesomeness and attractiveness? No charge!
I've taken ukemi for sensei Barrish and one thing he has done is to draw out technique and do henka waza (?) where he gives me slack to regain my center after taking it away repeatedly. It's a great way to open up the body I think. I don't always know what the "right" answer is as uke so it's an interesting process of discovery!

Suru
07-01-2009, 07:48 PM
I've taken ukemi for sensei Barrish and one thing he has done is to draw out technique and do henka waza (?) where he gives me slack to regain my center after taking it away repeatedly. It's a great way to open up the body I think. I don't always know what the "right" answer is as uke so it's an interesting process of discovery!

I like that idea much. Even Aikidoka, even high ranking sensei, find ourselves imperfect, and losing our centers time and again. What your Barrish Sensei seems to like teaching sometimes is, when we're off our centers, regaining stability. This seems like an essential thing to teach, and I wonder how much of it we learn in a more indirect fashion, through not-so-specific training.

Drew

Ari Gower
07-03-2009, 12:14 PM
-- "Trouble at t'mill. One on't crossbeams gone owt 'skew on treadle."

-- .....

If you get --- you get it.
;)

I can honestly say that I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition in an aikido forum. ;)

For me, the trust issue only comes into play with people around my own rank/skill level (I'm 5th kyu aikikai). People of higher rank often seem to sense what I can and can't handle, even if I've never worked with them before.
Maybe that has something to do with the intuition you are talking about, Drew. I know I need to work on how observant I am. A couple of days ago I was partnered with someone who had recently returned to aikido. We had gone through the technique a few times before I began to realize that he had very sensitive wrists, and that I needed to be way more careful.

Anjisan
07-03-2009, 07:07 PM
I kind of think of it as similar to "True victory is self Victory" in that the ability to trust others really begins with trusting oneself. If one makes a conscious effort to improve one's Ukemi and takes an active role in their Ukemi instead of just placing ones trust in Nage and "hoping for the best" one will have a better experience in my opinion. In such a relationship one can then feel free to "push the envelope for them" and step outside of their comfort zone even with strangers and grow more.

lbb
07-03-2009, 08:00 PM
I kind of think of it as similar to "True victory is self Victory" in that the ability to trust others really begins with trusting oneself. If one makes a conscious effort to improve one's Ukemi and takes an active role in their Ukemi instead of just placing ones trust in Nage and "hoping for the best" one will have a better experience in my opinion. In such a relationship one can then feel free to "push the envelope for them" and step outside of their comfort zone even with strangers and grow more.

So here's another tangent: does trust imply knowledge, or lack of knowledge, or does it not imply anything either way? By that I mean (to use Jason's example) if you've worked hard on your ukemi, you know what you can and can't do, and your "trust" in your ukemi is knowledge-based. Likewise, if you are working with a partner you've trained with many times before, you know what they're like, and they know what you can do, and you "trust" them because you know that they have good judgment and control (assuming they do). Then again, the word "trust" is used in situations where no such knowledge exists: where nage is an unknown quantity, where you're trying to perform ukemi that you've never done before, etc. So, although we use the word "trust" in both situations, aren't they fundamentally different things?

Buck
07-04-2009, 12:10 AM
Mary, are you talking about two "fundamentally different things" in which we use one word to represent both of these "two fundamentally different things." Both things/situation, you have to depend on each situation that poses risk differently, and thus risk being related to trust each situation is treated differently in terms of trust. It is your view that for different situations there are different kinds, or levels of trust. There is not a single trust applied universally?

Now if that is the case, isn't that an individual choice who a person looks at trust and what trust is to them. If say, Joe Aikidoka, has a view similar to Jason's, is that Joe Aikidoka's choice to define and apply trust anyway he feels he needs to.

Now you might say, well what about the other people in the dojo. What if they have a different view of trust that doesn't match Joe Aikidoka's view. Therefore, what I said still stands. I would reply with sure, that is an essential part of trust, is matching the same views of the risk and how risk with be treated. And you hold the other person to that. Therefore, you have to start with yourself, and then move on to other people. Every time you move on to new people to trust you evaluate the same risk and offer the same trust but according to each person the amount of trust you are willing to afford them.

I think women see trust and risk naturally different than men. They have to, for many, many reasons. I think people who grow up with different backgrounds have differing views and all that, do to. This goes with people who individually have different views from others due to personal experiences, as well. Point being, I think it is hard to categorize trust. It can be done maybe at general broad level for basic communicate of the topic. For example, say in a self-help book where it needs to be categorized for the sake of communicating through a book. But, applied in a dojo situation that is an individual personal thing. That is why I think this topic continues with different views because different people have different reasons, levels, and criteria for trust.

lbb
07-04-2009, 09:49 AM
I think women see trust and risk naturally different than men.

Oh, jeez, here we go...

The question that I asked was a very simple one; don't needlessly complicate it, please (and yeah, I know I'm asking in vain).

Guilty Spark
07-04-2009, 11:26 AM
Sneaky insults are just as bad as direct ones.

Drew

This is Aikiweb Drew.
Direct insults get you banned. Sneaky insults jabs and comments are accepted.

Some of the comments I've see flying around the forum remind me of one 6 year old with his finger an inch away from another child's face yelling 'I'm not touching you I'm not touching you!'

I've never hit my black lab yet if I take off my belt near him for some crazy reason he cowers.
You have over 300 posts here, you had to have realized how your comment about hitting your dog with a foam pool noodle would be turned around by someone on this forum. Some people get of on that stuff, it's like some kind of mental/verbal randori.

I knew exactly what you meant and I also knew exactly how someone would twist things around and start an argument over it.

Buck
07-04-2009, 08:41 PM
Oh, jeez, here we go...

The question that I asked was a very simple one; don't needlessly complicate it, please (and yeah, I know I'm asking in vain).

I didn't realize I was writing so complex and complicated for you. I apologize. The dimensions of trust, demands, and must be a comprehensive philosophical discussion on this topic of trust, and that discussion would, as a result, be a complex one. Far more complex than what I am doing here. :)

We first must look at trust as a property and not an attitude. Evaluate each individual to determine if the relationship is warranted for trust. And only works if both parties agree to be trustworthy, within that agreement risk is assessed. I won’t go over risk again, to abstain from redundancy.

What is accrued from trust you might muse in solace? It would be knowledge and autonomy.

“Autonomy is another good that flows from trust, at least insofar as being autonomous is a skill that we acquire and exercise only in social environments where we can trust people to support it. Feminists in particular tend to conceive of autonomy this way—that is, as a relational, or socially-constituted, property (Mackenzie and Stoljar 2000).”

Hence my reference to woman, which implied a view you have openly supported. So than it is said many feminists proclaim autonomy due to dominate oppressive sexist male society abnegates autonomy. Simply they can’t trust men and fail to gain autonomy. And not every one is a sexist or feminist, btw.

The nature of trust discussed that owns itself to knowledge and autonomy has been argued in this thread authentically and with acumen to be self-directed as well as other-directed. Thereby, trusting ourselves in evaluation and application is a major operator. But, done dynamically and not within a singular dimensional model.

With that stuff on the table, what I see, possibly, is the cognitive malfunction that trust is a single dimensional model. Common as that is, that model fails to demand flexibility that is exercised with a fair acumen when applied. And often as a result of personal centric thinking, and the association of individual estimation, this model of trust is often projected as an universal single dimensional model that is singularly constituted as solely an attitude. Usually, this is a ridged and single dimensional model that often fails to be applicable to the dynamics and complexity of trust and the human interpersonal matrix and applications it holds.

Suru
07-04-2009, 10:33 PM
I began work on an acrylic painting yesterday, and I should have it finished by tomorrow. Trust is one of the themes. Some people will probably think, *Big deal.* I'm hoping that it will cause some observers to ask questions. My visual art and writing sometimes generate more questions than answers. All the while, I do like to get some points across. I really like to work in this way because I feel thought stimulation is sometimes more important than pure persuasion.

Drew

Buck
07-05-2009, 11:03 AM
My personal view FWIW, as a result of living is your got going to very far without trust- that is true for Aikido training. The key is when do you trust and how much do you trust, how far are you going to go with that trust, what is the object of trust, and what happens when that trust is broken or loss. This stuff has to be weighed individually. When in Aikido practice the risk and the result of lost or broken trust isn't that big of an investment, interpersonally, or contractually. And in Aikido risk is managed to be a low risk activity which makes trust not a big investment.

I am not sure, but it is possible, that Aikido facilitates trust and the stuff trust produces knowledge and autonomy, any more or less than any other martial art or thingy. I think it would be a result of the Sensei and how the Sensei runs the dojo if it focus on producing and fostering trust. I do think Aikido provides a place for the development of trust, you do need a certain amount of trust and stuff if you want to actively learn the art. And how an individual sees trust, approaches trust, and all that becomes an personal and individual thing.

Now on the other hand, it reasons that because Aikido is a martial art, and as such by nature teaches against trust, in its application it is used for self-defense against an attack. That in itself teaches not to trust. To make a technique in practice and to make practice successful in learning an demonstrating and effective technique you don't trust. I feel in O'Sensei writings and a picture with a caption of him that said he was always on guard, he didn't trust in a certain way. If you want good technique and be sharp against the unpredictable application such as randori you aren't going to trust any one. With that said, it goes without saying there has to be some interpersonal trust in these situations in the dojo, and Aikido.

For me , I look for balance knowing the dojo is one place and the world is another and that is the purpose of Aikido and trust- for me. There should be solid trust in the dojo in the interpersonal realm but because we are human there is ego, and jealousy, hidden competitiveness and all that other ugly interpersonal stuff that sabotages the environment for trust and trust itself to develop in many dojos. And so, none of the good stuff that results in trust never gets a good chance to develop as it should. :)

mathewjgano
07-05-2009, 03:01 PM
My personal view FWIW, as a result of living is your got going to very far without trust- that is true for Aikido training. The key is when do you trust and how much do you trust, how far are you going to go with that trust, what is the object of trust, and what happens when that trust is broken or loss. This stuff has to be weighed individually. When in Aikido practice the risk and the result of lost or broken trust isn't that big of an investment, interpersonally, or contractually. And in Aikido risk is managed to be a low risk activity which makes trust not a big investment.
I agree people can't go very far in society without trust. A little over 10 years ago when I was dealing with some social anxiety issues, my lack of trust kept me very much to myself. I usually hid it fairly well when I was in group settings, but the less I trusted, the less I found myself in group settings. Work suffered, friendships suffered, and in general, I suffered. I realized I had to start working on these trust issues or I wouldn't end up a pretty sight.
I would disagree that Aikido practice is a low-risk activity in and of itself. For example, if someone torques too hard on your shoulder, it can be a life-time injury if it's bad enough. In my mind that's a very serious trust issue. I'm guessing you meant on a more personal note though and if that's the case, I pretty much agree. The convenient thing about most dojos is you don't see (or don't have to see) the people except in that very specific role; the interactions are usually very specific...and you have an activity to keep yourselves preoccupied with.

I do think Aikido provides a place for the development of trust, you do need a certain amount of trust and stuff if you want to actively learn the art.
In my own case Aikido helped reinforce the idea that when I am centered, which seems to require a relaxed engagement process, trust comes more naturally (as opposed to forcing myself to do it). I noticed a tendancy to try REALLY hard to focus on whatever was happening around me, be it personal exchanges or physical ones, but that just caused me to get fixated on something. Now I feel if I'm trying really hard at something, I'm probably not doing it right...the correlation as I see it being that trust and relaxation go hand in hand. Trusting doesn't mean giving yourself over; it means recognizing that you already have simply by interacting in the first place and that allows for you to take care of self and trust others at the same time...if I'm making any sense.
[/QUOTE]
Drew, I'm looking forward to seeing your painting!
Grant,
[I knew someone would start an argument over it]
Nobody is arguing!evileyes :D :cool:
I crack me up.
Take care all.

Buck
07-05-2009, 04:26 PM
I agree people can't go very far in society without trust. A little over 10 years ago when I was dealing with some social anxiety issues, my lack of trust kept me very much to myself. I usually hid it fairly well when I was in group settings, but the less I trusted, the less I found myself in group settings. Work suffered, friendships suffered, and in general, I suffered. I realized I had to start working on these trust issues or I wouldn't end up a pretty sight.

I am glad you are past that. Did Aikido help and if so how?

I would disagree that Aikido practice is a low-risk activity in and of itself. For example, if someone torques too hard on your shoulder, it can be a life-time injury if it's bad enough. In my mind that's a very serious trust issue. I'm guessing you meant on a more personal note though and if that's the case, I pretty much agree. The convenient thing about most dojos is you don't see (or don't have to see) the people except in that very specific role; the interactions are usually very specific...and you have an activity to keep yourselves preoccupied with.


Matt, your right, you can get injuried and seriously in Aikido and I don't want people to think you can't. My use of low risk without more explaination was misleading. In my head I was comparing a was comparing Aikido (as a low risk) to high risk activities like base jumping, ski diving and surfing, and that stuff. I was basically picturing Aikido being low risk because we learn to fall safely, our philosophy is not to purposely injure or kill. Thanks Matt for pointing that out, I think I was over-simplifing Aikido's potencial for injury.



Trusting doesn't mean giving yourself over; it means recognizing that you already have simply by interacting in the first place and that allows for you to take care of self and trust others at the same time...if I'm making any sense.


Good point. Total agreement by me! There are people I have trained with that struggled with trust issues because they haven't come to understand your point. Your point in an Aikido class, if consciously taught and practiced, can make Aikido a place an environment promoting and maintaining trust- especially with people over-time, in the right conditions and people.
-----------------
FWIW. What I am concern about is that people will regard, as authoritative, your point, to the philosophy of Aikido and a O'Sensei. Thereby, promoting that altercation to O'Sensei and his beliefs, and Aikido. I don' t know precisely how O'Sensei felt about trust. Why assoicated any thing to how O'Sensei might have viewed trust is my angle. :)

Buck
07-05-2009, 04:44 PM
I guess what I am trying to say is, is if you are going to custom an original tell people you did so, don't say your custom job is the original. Not that anyone is doing that and stuff. Just how those kind of things can be misunderstood. :)

mathewjgano
07-05-2009, 05:42 PM
I am glad you are past that. Did Aikido help and if so how?
Well, I'm mostly past it...maybe 99%. I still have my awkward moments and have always been pretty comfortable being asocial. Aikido helped most definately, though. I would say it helped in two major ways: 1. it provided an atmosphere where I could interact with people in a way that was safe (i.e. the aforementioned specialized interactions) and, 2. it kept me moving. My social anxiety was, I think, partly brought on by the depression I was experiencing at the time and in my limited opinion, physical activity is one of the best things a depressed person can do.
Now, I don't want to give the impression that I think any dojo will automatically help someone with similar symptoms. Folks who have read through Aikiweb long enough have all heard stories of passive agressive or otherwise abusive behavior. I was lucky enough to train with a fantastic group of people, truly some of the nicest and most caring folks I've ever met...and that is the recipe for creating the kind of environment I think folks experiencing similar thing as me need. Beyond those reasons, I guess i'd just like to add a 3rd: that many of the concepts found in Aikido-speak were personally very helpfull (e.g. misogi can be a very transformative process, whether it's keiko or taking a dip in a river).

FWIW. What I am concern about is that people will regard, as authoritative, your point, to the philosophy of Aikido and a O'Sensei. Thereby, promoting that altercation to O'Sensei and his beliefs, and Aikido. I don' t know precisely how O'Sensei felt about trust. Why assoicated any thing to how O'Sensei might have viewed trust is my angle. :)
I hope no one thinks when I give my opinion that I think it is automatically correct...or more to your point, I hope no one assumes my words are authoritative (they are not even close!). In my own mind I have developed such a sense of my own ignorance that sometimes I simply speak whatever notions come to mind, perhaps overly comfortable with that sense of personal ignorance. That is to say I've noticed a tendancy where that self-understanding seems to allow me a wider open mouth.:D I know my earlier time here on Aikiweb had me denouncing anything that looked like competition. It was fitting, then, that I would end up training at a Shodokan dojo where I discovered what appeared as competition wasn't always so. It's easy to paint in black and white, but a truer artist, in my view, is one who understands the subtlety found in shades of gray.

lbb
07-05-2009, 07:17 PM
FWIW. What I am concern about is that people will regard, as authoritative, your point, to the philosophy of Aikido and a O'Sensei. Thereby, promoting that altercation to O'Sensei and his beliefs, and Aikido.

Buck, "altercation" is defined as a heated confrontation. Is that the word you meant to use?

Buck
07-05-2009, 07:35 PM
Buck, "altercation" is defined as a heated confrontation. Is that the word you meant to use?

:blush: opps...! Thank you Mary for pointing that out, it was a result of me not paying attention to the spell checker. "Altercation" is not the word I wanted to use. Here is the word that I intended to use; "alternative." Which I mispelled as a result of a typo.

I can see how the word altercation caused confusion. :)

Buck
07-05-2009, 07:45 PM
I hope no one thinks when I give my opinion that I think it is automatically correct...or more to your point, I hope no one assumes my words are authoritative (they are not even close!).

I certainly don't think that of you or am implying that :blush: -just in case. I was just being lazy and made reference to your point instead of writing the point out like I should have. I was merely speaking in general terms and not specifically to you or about anyone.

In a nutshell, often times things are hung on Aikido and O'Sensei that shouldn't as result of a discussion, or misinformation in mist of confusion gets associated as fact sometimes by these types of discussions. FWIW.

Suru
07-06-2009, 12:21 AM
Drew, I'm looking forward to seeing your painting!


Great, thanks! My latest painting - "Accomplishment of Courage" - is up, waiting for administrative acceptance. This was the most tedious, time-consuming, and exhausting piece I've done since I started visual art again. It is also one of my favorites. It is painful to bring photos of my works from ~750 kb down to the requisite 150 kb, but the concept still shows clearly. The colors suffer some, but after all, the ability to share it even at 13% is a blessing.

Drew

Basia Halliop
07-06-2009, 10:11 AM
So here's another tangent: does trust imply knowledge, or lack of knowledge, or does it not imply anything either way? By that I mean (to use Jason's example) if you've worked hard on your ukemi, you know what you can and can't do, and your "trust" in your ukemi is knowledge-based. Likewise, if you are working with a partner you've trained with many times before, you know what they're like, and they know what you can do, and you "trust" them because you know that they have good judgment and control (assuming they do). Then again, the word "trust" is used in situations where no such knowledge exists: where nage is an unknown quantity, where you're trying to perform ukemi that you've never done before, etc. So, although we use the word "trust" in both situations, aren't they fundamentally different things?

Yeah, I agree that they're two different things. E.g. you could call one trust and the other faith or something like that... Although maybe they could both be trust but for different reasons?

Personally, if I say I trust someone it just means I feel and believe that they are trustworthy. So I don't believe it's a 'decision' I make (I might choose to act as if I trust someone even if I don't, and give them power over me or whatever, but that wouldn't honestly be 'trusting' them, it would be faking it - perhaps in hope that I will come to trust them in time), nor is it inherently good or bad to trust someone . It's more just important to try to be accurate in my judgements. I might believe that based on some degree of knowledge (i.e., I've known them for a while and they've always acted in a trustworthy way, so I have come to feel that I know their character and/or or skill or whatever), or based on prediction - either a prediction based on what I do know about them (they act in a way that gives me clues that make me predict they are trustworthy), or it could be something more like a generalized faith in humanity (I might believe that the vast majority of people are trustworthy).

Plus, an evaluation of someone's trustworthiness also depends on what you're trusting them _about_ - you might believe you can trust them in one thing but not in another.

I agree with some others that I haven't necessarily come to trust people in general any more or less (either in a purely training sense or in life in general) after a few years of Aikido, but I could probably say I've come to trust _myself_ more (in both contexts), which might sometimes look like the same thing to someone watching (eg at a seminar, I might look like I'm more trusting of strangers but it's really more about being more trusting of my own ukemi).

Matt Shane
07-08-2009, 09:38 AM
-- "Trouble at t'mill. One on't crossbeams gone owt 'skew on treadle."

-- .....

If you get --- you get it.
;)

LOL! You rock!