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Arianah
03-17-2002, 03:07 PM
I was wondering: how long into training do you think is the proper time to learn rolling? In a beginnersí class, do you often introduce rolling right away, wait a few weeks, wait a few months . . . ? I learned forward rolling about two months into my training, the reason being too small a mat space, and mats that were not sufficient for it. I fear that had I not been completely hooked on aikido by the time we started, I would have most certainly quit (I endured much pain before learning how to roll properly.--hmm . . . there's no smily to express "hurts like hell." This one will have to do: :dead: ) However, since we have gotten new mats, the newbies at my dojo have started to learn rolls their third week of classes. I wanted a few opinions about when the optimum time to start this is. My personal (and very inexperienced) opinion is that it should wait a bit. I just think it might be too overwhelming to throw it all out there at once. The beginners already feel inferior (I assume) because they canít really throw, they canít really fall, they donít know the etiquette, they donít know the language, and they donít really know what is expected of them. I just think that adding on more before they become grounded and things start catching on is not the best approach to take. Especially since rolling is scary! :eek: So how do the instructors out there deal with this?

Sarah

guest1234
03-17-2002, 03:45 PM
That's interesting, ukemi is what hooked me into my class! A new student was told to arrive 30 minutes before class. A senior met them, taught them to take off their shoes, sign the attendance book, tie their belt, and bow in, in that order before class started. Once class started, you were the senior student's for that hour. He took you to a corner of the mat and taught you front and back rolls and back falls. At the end of the hour, you had a pretty good sense of what was needed. Of course, our sensei, perhaps due to his time under Chiba Sensei, felt good ukemi was essential to survival on the mat and expected us to learn it.

Every class started with ukemi practice...don't know what the beginners would do then if they didn't know falls. Besides, putting it off, to me, just makes it seem harder than it is, some folks could have real anxiety over it after a few months of not having to do it. Kind of like how some folks are about breakfalls; I learned after a couple of months and it has always been fun, those who wait years seem to really have a great deal of fear.

This having been said, my last dojo is also a college credit class, and is now not teaching rolls in the beginner's class. In some ways I think that is good as there are really no techniques taught in the beginner's class that require rolling, and it is hard to give 40 brand new beginners the kind of individual attention needed to get their rolls up tp speed (like the solid hour of rolling with a first kyu instructor I got at my first dojo).

I think if you are not in that college class situation, then rolling is important as sometimes students get launched into a roll, especially if the technique requires one, even if nage didn't mean to do it. Better to know how to roll (I have seen a 6th dan throw someone who didn't know how to roll into a forward roll...it didn't kill him, but it didn't look enjoyable, either:rolleyes: ) So the sooner taught the better, for safety's sake.

Greg Jennings
03-17-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Arianah
I was wondering: how long into training do you think is the proper time to learn rolling? In a beginnersí class, do you often introduce rolling right away, wait a few weeks, wait a few months

Our dojo has been described as "invigorating" (Paul Clark, are you reading this?). A lot of people don't want to train that way, so take this with a grain of salt.

We teach people to do sit outs and rolls right away. We teach the rolls from a kneeling position first, then standing (unless they're very athletic).

The basic rolls are followed by a multitude of rolling drills. E.g., back-and-forths, front-blend-to-back, back-blend-to-front, jumping rolls over a partner, cross-footed rolls.

When they can roll OK, we let them participate in a drill we call "the flop". That's their first intro into break falls.

Our instructor is very concerned that students develop really good ukemi skills. We spend a lot of time on it.

Best,

shadow
03-17-2002, 07:08 PM
hello arianah :) (I don't know how to do any of the other smileys)

My sensei doesn't put any special emphasise on learning ukemi, he teaches the way his teacher (Saito sensei) taught him. Which is you seek out sempai on your own to teach you ukemi. So people start rolling when they feel comfortable. I had to find someone to show me how to roll after class. I can't remember how long it took me, but I find ukemi comes naturally. The more you train the better your ukemi gets of course. Then once you can roll, you try to roll out of everything you can, and then suddenly...breakfalls happen. Although there are the people who are petrified at falling, there is this big guy in our class who just doesn't like falling, he is so hard to throw cause he just doesn't want to fall over! And then I tell him to practice his forward rolls after class and he wont! hehe

nikonl
03-17-2002, 09:11 PM
There isn't a fixed time for learning forward rolls, depends on how ready the individual is. Anyway, i think 2 months should be fine... :)

Edward
03-17-2002, 09:56 PM
I think 50% of Aikido is about Ukemi. So if you're not good at that, then you're not doing Aikido.

If I ever teach a class one day, beginners will have to do exclusively Ukemi for the first 3-4 weeks or untill they become good at it, before they can start anything else.

If someone's afraid from falling, or if yone doesn't fall well, he's both a very bad Uke and a very dangerous one.

Cheers,
Edward

dc20
03-17-2002, 10:25 PM
Just to throw in my $.02, I started on rolls in my very first class, I believe. If not the first class, then I know it was the second. Our dojo is big on ukemi, and it's part of every beginner's early training. I just took my first promotional exam, and part of the test was to demonstrate ukemi...sitfalls, forward rolls, backward rolls. We are also observed during the testing for our ability not only to execute the attack as nage, but also to correctly deliver the attack and receive the technique as uke. So like I said, we're pretty big into ukemi. And I started learning rolls almost immediately upon beginning training...and I'm grateful for it!:D

Erik
03-18-2002, 02:41 AM
ASAP with a variable for the person. If you've got a person who can barely do a simple sitting back fall then forward rolls probably won't be happening soon. Otherwise, as fast as they can take them.

Duarh
03-18-2002, 03:25 AM
:) well, @ our dojo we get rolls from the very first lesson - I think it's okay that way; I was scared for the first ones, but got used to them quickly afterwards. It's much harder when an assistant instructor gives the beginner class (in which I, after 8 months, still am) breakfalls - *g* they sometimes still seem a bit scary to me, but to someone who's been around just for a few weeks. . .

Btw, a somewhat irrevelant question - is your arm supposed to hurt lots in breakfalls? I still haven't got a definite answer for myself on whether breakfalls in aikido mean falling flat-out so that surface area is maximized, or falling into a roll - different people give different answers too :(.

guest1234
03-18-2002, 05:54 AM
I look at breakfalls as a roll without your leading arm...but how high off the ground you do that roll can vary according to you and your nage.

I think in most situations you can be very very close to the ground as you 'unroll' so little force is transmitted to the parts of the body touching the ground (you get that low by bending your knees). Sometimes nage has your hand held high (say shihonage and he remains standing, or the koshinage that involves him throwing you over his shoulder rather than across his hips, or even a true koshinage over his hips in a very tall nage)...I(at least) tend to 'unroll' out of those in the air and the landing is more like a high side fall in feel. But my arm doesn't hurt in either, and I don't think it should.

I'd have someone watch and critique those falls, pain is usually a good indication something could be improved. I'd just be guessing, but it may be you are turning out slightly in the fall so that your arm is taking the brunt of your fall. Good luck!

Duarh
03-18-2002, 07:28 AM
Thx. Thing is, I'm REAALY a beginner on breakfalls, and, if my arm doesn't hurt, something else will :) so I choose my arm.

Done 1 somewhat OK breakfall so far. . .ah well. Gotta practice. And gotta finally test to get out of "beginners'" class.

Ps. In case you wondered, those ""s were there for the sake of those here who'd just LOVE to jump in and start talking about the meaning of 'beginner'. . .

thomson
03-18-2002, 09:30 AM
Duarh,
I would say that Colleen is right, if your arm hurts, there is something that needs to be corrected. I personally prefer back breakfalls to anything else, when done properly there is NO pain for me. I land primarily on the full of my back followed immediately by my hand(s) slapping the mat. If you do a back breakfall incorrectly and land on your arm or elbow first you take the chance of serious injury, (shoulder dislocation, elbow, etc.). Talk to your sensei, maybe he or a sempai can point out what you need to improve to take the pain out of it.

BTW, in our club everybody starts on rolling and falling in the very beginning, and when they feel comfortable with basic ukemi, then they can participate in the arts being practiced.

Mike :D

Bruce Baker
03-18-2002, 10:20 AM
What kind of rolling? Gymnastic rolls, breakfall rolls, barrel rolls, or bakery rolls?

I have heard so many different absolute terms for people who have learned to roll one particular way ... and there always seems to be another school of how to do something? But all in all, we are not anyone else but ourselves and it is from this viewpoint we try to explain what we know or do?

You cannot go into and come out of a roll without balance, I know. I have a balance disease that takes away balance at the damnest times! Sometimes it is just like having the flu and a hangover on a ship in a hurricane ... try rolling in those conditions.

So, I have great compassion for people who have fear, or great difficulty learning to roll/ breakfall from fully committed techniques. It is a skill that is learned like any other. Sometimes quickly, and sometimes very slowly.

Have you ever been wiped out by a wave that just totally took away all your balance, very nearly drowning you? Sometimes, that is what it feels like when you don't get into the harmony of throw's power and miss the ukemi ... crash! This is the fear of those having difficulty with falls, rolls, and blending with the power of technique.

Sometimes, we forget that in our experienced time of training the attained skills we have now did not come in a day, a week, or a month, but with many hours of training and programing body/mind?

Just my nickel, but there are many types of exercises besides telling, and showing others our proficientcy in rolls or falls? Sometimes we must talk to each other to find the fears and capabilities of each other before helping to teach each other the necessary skills needed for having fun in Aikido practice? Slowly, carefully ... allowing the skill to develop at its own pace.

If you didn't know it, there are a number of simple vestibular exercises to help the body regain balance, or improve balance. Either these, or simply learning to slow down certain exercises we already do for warmups will help those having difficulty begin to improve steadily. Vestibular exercises are one way.

What is the hurry? There are many ways to get there from here.

Lenocinari
03-18-2002, 07:41 PM
Dear All-
I guess you could say I'm fairly new to aikido, 6 months to be exact. When I was first welcomed to the dojo I started on front and back rolls the very first day. The instrurtor told everyone to practice their rolls and took me over to the corner He started me on rolls from a sqatting position. Once I got over my fear of the ground I was able to do forward rolls and backward rolls from a standing position. Although I am in the kids class (I'm only 13 for Pete's sake) I presume the ritual is the same for the adults class too. Hope this helps.
Cheers-
Ben

shadow
03-19-2002, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Edward

If someone's afraid from falling, or if yone doesn't fall well, he's both a very bad Uke and a very dangerous one.

Cheers,
Edward

who is yone? Is he russian? Sounds like his ukemi is a bit erratic.

Edward
03-19-2002, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by shadow


who is yone? Is he russian? Sounds like his ukemi is a bit erratic.

Sorry for the typo :(

erikmenzel
03-19-2002, 03:02 PM
Hi,

forward role is learned/practised every class.
First some Aiki Taiso and then some ukemi practise.

Just wondering, is there another way?

JPT
03-19-2002, 03:20 PM
Try practising the standing up breakfall on a crash mat first, until you get the hang of them, then progress to the normal mats...... After you have been training for a few years you'll get that crazy urge to start doing them on allsorts of surfaces, carpet, grass concrete etc. Remember to empty your pockets ouch!!!!
:triangle: :circle: :square:

shadow
03-20-2002, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by Edward


Sorry for the typo :(

don't worry, just me being a smartass. :p :d

jimvance
03-20-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by ca
I look at breakfalls as a roll without your leading arm...Interesting observation, but I can do a roll without both arms and still call it a roll. We all know ukemi is a receiving and dispensing of energy. A roll ("zenpo kaiten") is the ballistic releasing of energy caused within the human body by gravity and proper stimulus. You fall down and stand back up all in one fluid motion. If a roll is the transition of your center of gravity across distance, I think that "sute ukemi" (breakfall) is the fixation of that center of gravity while your body relieves the same amount of stress. Fixed or transitory, the mechanics, as Colleen says, are all the same.
...but how high off the ground you do that roll can vary according to you and your nage.I think where the fall happens depends less on relative height between uke and tori, and more on manipulation of that common center of gravity. If the common center is high enough, then uke may want to thrust up and over it. Perhaps that is what was meant, but I took it to mean tall people throw "tall" and short people throw "short". I think short people can throw "tall" and vice versa, it all depends on where the common center is and what it is doing.

The goal of slapping with your arm is to take stress away from the torso and all the organs it holds. Please don't hurt it Mr. Kreicbergs. :smiling Going as slow as gravity will let you and breathing out will help to relieve most other stresses.

Jim Vance

erikmenzel
03-23-2002, 05:36 PM
As a little sidestep:
why do people often make so much noise doing breakfalls?

My simple brain thinks that if you can hear it you (can) feel it.:confused:

Other question:

Why do people often confuse doing ukemi with trying to look good? :eek:

Just confused about other people :freaky:

guest1234
03-23-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by jimvance
I think where the fall happens depends less on relative height between uke and tori, and more on manipulation of that common center of gravity. If the common center is high enough, then uke may want to thrust up and over it. Perhaps that is what was meant, but I took it to mean tall people throw "tall" and short people throw "short". I think short people can throw "tall" and vice versa, it all depends on where the common center is and what it is doing.

The goal of slapping with your arm is to take stress away from the torso and all the organs it holds. Please don't hurt it Mr. Kreicbergs. :smiling Going as slow as gravity will let you and breathing out will help to relieve most other stresses.

Jim Vance

Yes, Jim, you did misunderstand me. If I meant it was the height of nage, I'd have said "this depends on nage's height" NOT "how high off the ground you do that roll can vary according to you and your nage." I meant just that: if nage throws high, it is difficult to roll low. If nage tries to throws low, uke might be able to lead it and roll high, or if not will will forced to roll low. The timing and interaction between the two, plus where nage plans to throw and how skilled he is at it, determines how high uke will breakfall.

Erik, my first sensei could do silent breakfalls. Not sure how he did it, knowing what I know now I'd like to see him do them again, I'm thinking he took the fall low. The closer to the ground, the less noise a fall is going to make. My rolls have always been silent, and my breakfalls noisy (the exact opposite of what sensei wanted---sigh) but it gives me something to work on. My breakfalls are less noisy if I try to get lower (which I'm not fond of doing), and with some techniques and nages (OK, the big guys who like to add energy) quite a bit louder.

akiy
03-24-2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by ca
Erik, my first sensei could do silent breakfalls. Not sure how he did it, knowing what I know now I'd like to see him do them again, I'm thinking he took the fall low.
There are at least a couple of methods in doing a "silent" breakfall, both of which pretty much involve "reaching" for the ground with your "slapping" (or, in this case, non-slapping) hand and using it as a sort of hydraulic spring to "lower" your body to the ground.

Although I'm not the best at doing it, maybe I can show you at Summer Camp, huh?

-- Jun

guest1234
03-24-2002, 07:53 PM
I would really appreciate that, thanks!:D He told me that I needed to tighten my abdominal muscles to be quieter (more quiet:confused: ??) but that just made me 'levitate': the first night I learned to breakfall, we did a lot of kote gaeshi, I think he was trying to cement it into my head...

one of my partners was a woman whose VERY effective kote gaeshi is what made me beg to learn breakfalls (you just could NOT do a backfall fast enough). I don't know if it was my tightening my abs, or she was 'holding' me up, but when I worked with her it seemed like I just hung in the air for an extended time... we weren't allowed to talk on the mat, but after a few throws she whispered as she pinned me "how are you doing that?".. "I'm not," I said, "you must be..." She replied "No, it's not me, I'm going to tell sensei on you for levitating..." at which point we both got reprimanded for our whispering... and the cause remained a mystery...:freaky:

Choku Tsuki
03-24-2002, 10:05 PM
ca wrote: my first sensei could do silent breakfalls
Breakfalls are rolling by touching the ground with your shoulder first: you have to be round and get your head very, very low before your feet go overhead. No magic there.

Arianah wrote: I just think that adding on more before they become grounded and things start catching on is not the best approach to take.

Teaching rolling right away is a good way to get rid of a student who is not determined to learn aikido. Better to weed out the least earnest before wasting hours and hours on technique, I say.

--Chuck

akiy
03-24-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by nyaikido
Breakfalls are rolling by touching the ground with your shoulder first: you have to be round and get your head very, very low before your feet go overhead. No magic there.
The kind of "breakfalls" that you probably see over in New York City are those I might call "non-breakfall" breakfalls. In other words, they're more akin to forward rolls than to the "in the air" breakfalls that other folks do. I have a friend who pretty much does these "non-breakfall" breakfalls that she learned at New York Aikikai; I believe Waite sensei does them frequently, too.

The "silent" breakfalls I refer to I've seen done by folks from New England Aikikai, some Yoshinkan practioners, students of Obata sensei (unsurprisingly as he was a Yoshinkan uchideshi), and some jujutsu people. Some call it the "fan" ukemi as, when uke "reaches" over with his hand, it looks somewhat like a fan opening up then closing as the person lands ("silently") onto the ground...

-- Jun

Paul Clark
03-25-2002, 11:14 AM
Our dojo has been described as "invigorating"

There is still nothing quite as invigorating as 20 minutes of ukemi practice at Capitol City Aikido in Montgomery, AL!

Paul

guest1234
03-25-2002, 12:15 PM
Ah, the mystery unfolds... my sensei, before he studied under Chiba Sensei, studied Yoshinkan Aikido... perhaps that is where the silent breakfall came from:confused: I just assumed it was magic...

I'm looking foward to learning them :eek: but be forewarned I'm dense...

Bruce Baker
04-03-2002, 09:57 AM
Gee, didn't everybody get four years of gymnastics in High School Gym class?

Sometimes I forget, we don't all have the same learning experiences to draw upon?

Relax ... learn to sit and roll on your rounded back. Left shoulder to right hip, and right shoulder to left hip. Never let your head touch the mat as you tuck your chin and try to touch your nose to belly button ... ROUND!

Program the body/mind to accept round with rolling round ... and then forward rolling becomes that much easier.

I used to laugh at being thrown, because I could roll gymnastically, but after slamming my head hard enough to nearly knock me out, turning my brains to jelly, I learned another type of roll very quickly.

There is nothing childlike about falling backward from a sqatting position, or rocking on your rounded back to either warm up the muscles, or to program the mind to round the body for rolls.

I know we don't always use rock/roll warmups to squatting position in warmups, but that seems to be the preferred method to get ready for beginners to Aikido Roll! ... low breakfalls, and Rock and Roll.

I know ... it is not as much fun as diving over four of five bowing bodies nose to toes, but at sometime even them gymnastic jumps/rolls come to an end for more less physical practical applications.

Practice at you own pace. You'll get it.

Bruce Baker
04-03-2002, 10:09 AM
Silent breakfall is to roll through the fall, or follow the energy of the fall into a roll or energy dispersion.

Silence. How strange it sounds when a 280lbs man is nearly silent, and 165 lbs man slams so loudly it almost assaults the senses?

It also hurts less, and allows for faster recovery ... one of my pet pieves "...to always be ready to defend yourself." Holdover from karate, I guess?

Have fun learning.
:ai: :ki: :do:

akiy
04-03-2002, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Silent breakfall is to roll through the fall, or follow the energy of the fall into a roll or energy dispersion.
Not necessarily. There are many versions of taking soft breakfalls, some versions of which involve, basically, turning a breakfall into a roll (like that described above done by folks like Donovan Waite sensei). Other kinds which I have already described above include those I have seen taken by some jujutsu people, students of Kanai sensei, students of Obata sensei, and folks over from Russia. I have heard many aikido students in Frace are very adept at taking soft breakfalls from all sorts of positions, but I have yet to see/experience them. Maybe some day.

-- Jun

Jim23
04-23-2002, 12:35 PM
Teaching rolling right away is a good way to get rid of a student who is not determined to learn aikido. Better to weed out the least earnest before wasting hours and hours on technique, I say.



No one would disagree that ukemi is vital to aikido. But why are so many so opinionated as to how early beginners should start? Whatever happened to "learn at your own pace" and "Aikido is for everyone, regardless of age, weight, etc."?

I started ukemi (forward rolls from standing, etc.) on my first lesson and did reasonably well. Berfore I knew it, I was doing "lenghts" of the dojo with everyone else. After about a month - and a few nasty mistakes - I started finding it painful and increasingly difficult. So much so, that I almost developed mat-phobia. ;) I had to lay off it for a while until the shoulders started feeling better.

In hindsight, I feel that I started too soon and did too much.

Everyone here is quick to say that a shodan should just be considered a beginner. If that's the case, then what's the rush with a newbie?

Yes, Gertrude ... your baby will learn to walk!

Jim23

mike lee
07-14-2002, 11:24 AM
I teach forward and backward rolling from day one. Good ukemi is a student's best friend. It makes aikido much more fun to do.

I teach breakfalls at 4 kyu, sometimes sooner if someone shows interest.

I throw all the students myself until they become completely proficient at taking breakfalls. This is because I'm big and strong, I know what I'm doing, and I can support them if they start to fall badly. I try to build up their confidence and reduce their fear. I try to quickly help them overcome the "good side, bad side" syndrome.

I never let students who are just learning to take breakfalls to "experiment" on each other. Such a situation usually leads to painful and unnecessary injuries.

I even throw them, ever so slowly and carefully, with koshi-nage, even though they are not learning this waza yet. This is just to give them a chance to overcome their fear of falling. I know for a fact that when they become shodan, they will be experts at ukemi, and they will thank me for it. This is because they will meet other shodan who are still afraid and are always getting hurt. My students seldom get hurt because they have the skill, they are relaxed and confident, and their bodies are full of ki. This is the right way to practice aikido.

When prospective students come to watch, I intentionally throw students so that they have to take breakfalls. This lets the visitors know immediately what they're in for if they want to study aikido. I'm not trying to scare them away or impress them with my skill. I just want them to know right away what is expected.

If anything, I'm showing off my students' skill. I'm showing off how much they've learned in such a short time. I'm very proud of them. There should be no doubt about it -- you've got to have some guts want to learn aikido.

My suggestion to new students is to work on it every day. Don't over-do it, but don't avoid it either. If you have a weakness, face it and work on it. Little by little, you will improve.

P.S. There's nothing more disgusting to me than a black belt in aikido who is still afraid to fall, regardless of their long list of excuses.

Arianah
07-14-2002, 03:56 PM
Follow up question:
If you teach your students to roll from day one, does that mean that that is the type of fall they take from throws from day one? Where I train, we start out with sit-falls (putting your knee down and rolling onto your back, and slapping the mat), and forward falls (going straight to the floor, breaking your fall with your forearm, then lowering yourself onto your stomach). Forward rolls come three or four weeks into a beginners' class. Backward rolls a few weeks later.

I wonder about terminology differences when discussing falls. Where I train, the word "breakfall" is reserved for high falls. Do others use it for anything other than a roll? Would a sit-fall (as I described above) be considered a breakfall because of the slap, or a roll (rolling onto your back, but not over), or neither? Just questioning differences in terms.

Sarah

erikmenzel
07-15-2002, 04:10 AM
For terminology, we at our school don't use the word break-fall (or its dutch equivalent). We simply use the term ukemi in which every espect of being uke is incorporated. This also includes falling, flipping and rolling but is definitly not restricted to those parts of ukemi.

As we practise rolling every class, beginners are expected to practise rolling every class as well. Of course they will be helped by one of the sempai. In practise beginners are expected and allowed to do the ukemi their up to, so this varies per person. Some people take years to be comfortable in techniques with flips and others are really quick.

In our experience having a not so obvious example helps people to do flips and rolls. Every one expects the advanced students to flip. If one of the big masculine sempai does a flip people tend to look at this as something only the advanced students do and is still beyond their reach. Luckily sometimes some special talent comes in and opens some eyes. We have a little, fragile looking, woman that started to do flips comfortably from almost every technique (Kote gaeshi, sumi otoshi, shiho nage etc) within a year. Her flipping showed people that it can be done by everybody and inspired lots of people to practise and do flips. Of course being helped and guided by the sempai also helps.

mike lee
07-15-2002, 05:31 AM
Where I practice, white belts only fall backwards when doing waza -- specifically, irimi-nage and shiho-nage.

Fifth kyu and above begin doing forward rolls with waza. I start teaching white belts forward-rolling in practice because it takes time to learn. Then, by the time they are 5 kyu, they are fairly proficient.

One could take a breakfall when falling backward or forward, although a backward breakfall is rarely done in aikido because it would usually involve a trip or hip throw more commonly used in judo. Nevertheless, aikidoists should be capable and even comfortable at taking a backward breakfall. (This is especially important when you meet the occasional macho show-off.)

I also met a sensei from Hombu Dojo in Japan who loved throwing students backward over his thigh. In this case, a backward breakfall was needed. Since we rarely do such waza in aikido, many students are uncomfortable with such falls.

Students where I practice begin taking forward breakfalls at the 4 kyu level.

Jim ashby
07-16-2002, 03:59 AM
In our Dojo rolling breakfalls are taught from day one, as are "slapping" breakfalls. Our Sensei feels that these skills are essential for anyone to fully experience Aikido.
Of course, there are people that cannot breakfall due to physical difficulties (we once had a student in in a wheelchair)but anyone who says "I can't do that" without even trying is gently told of the Sensei who taught most of the beginners classes before he moved away. He had one leg and he could breakfall from anywhere.
If you tell people "this one's really difficult" guess what happens? Yep, you're proved right. If you see a problem it'll be a problem.
Have fun.
PS, Big Bob the cyberstalker can breakfall with the best and he's not light! (private joke)

mike lee
07-16-2002, 04:21 AM
Never saw a rolling breakfall. Sounds difficult. And that slapping must really hurt!:blush: :freaky: ;)

Harms
07-16-2002, 06:50 AM
Never saw a rolling breakfall. Sounds difficult. And that slapping must really hurt!:blush: :freaky: ;)

A girl in my club knows how to do it. She does it as quiet as a normal fall but it is definetly not a "normal" forward fall she is doing.
I have tried to learn how to do it and I can manage to start and end standing but with three loud *thumps* when my shoulder, hip and feet hits the floor :)
It's my summer project to learn how to do it without hurting myself :)
/Tobias

Arianah
07-16-2002, 02:35 PM
A rolling breakfall? Is that where you start out in a forward roll, but rather than come up to standing, end in breakfall position on the ground?

Sarah

Steven
07-16-2002, 03:11 PM
Where I first started my training, we used forward roll, judo roll (forward roll with slap), break fall, back roll, back fall and side fall.

Yoshinkan terminology is.

Front fall - mai ukemi
Back fall - ushiro or koho ukemi
Side fall - yoko ukemi

Forward roll = zenpo kaiten ukemi
Forward Break fall = Zenpo hiyaku ukemi
Backup roll - koho kaiten ukemi

We teach all ukemi day one, then incorporate a technique that uses that ukemi and build from there.

That's my story anyway ...

Harms
07-17-2002, 04:03 AM
A rolling breakfall? Is that where you start out in a forward roll, but rather than come up to standing, end in breakfall position on the ground?
No you get thrown with same amount of energy and intention as in a breakfall but instead you roll out of it. Its like an quite long zenpo kaiten ukemi with other hand forward.

I think its the same type of roll others have discribed in this thread but the girl in my club doesn't seem to know how or where she has learned it so I can't trace the origin.

In my club we start with bac krolls allmost from day one. Forward rolls is introduced shortly after. I belive we're trying to let them sample as many parts of aikido as possible early in the training. So we start praticing movement, tecniques and falls in the first week. There is of course quite much talking the first couple of sessions.

/Tobias

Leslie Parks
07-17-2002, 11:56 AM
Since the intial query was about forward rolling, I have outlined our "beginning" ukemi curriculum below. This is just our way and works for us. The caveat is that with young kids, I usually teach forward rolling either first or second lesson, depending on the child. It seems the older we get, the further away the mat is.

BTW, our forward and side breakfalls we teach as the student is ready, usually within the first year. We have a series of instructional drills that lead up to doing the falls fully. The side fall especially becomes necessary in some of our throws (iriminage, tenshinage, shihonage), so you don't want to wait too long. It is a 3rd kyu requirement.

And, in my opinion, ukemi is 60% of aikido. You have to have it as uke and as nage, you have to have some knowledge of it. JUST MY OPINION.

and...umm...what is a flop???

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In our dojo, most students start out in "Introductory" classes. These are geared to the student fresh off the street. They run for six weeks, then we start over again. We teach the basics of safe falling (ukemi), the basics of body movement (tai sabaki), and some basic throws (waza). In an ukemi curriculum taught to us by Toyoda Sensei,

1st week: koho tento undo (elsewhere called "sitfalls"...I think), first from sitting, then to kneeling, then to standing. Add on stepping back with slap (ushiro ukemi breakfall...as we call it). Usually we teach a basic kokyunage, sumiotoshi or kotaegaeshi with this

2nd week: review of above, add forward fall (as from ikkyo et al.) drills

3rd week: koho tento undo exercise, may teach sankyo either pinning or backward throwing among others

4th week: koho tento undo (always, always) one technique requiring this. Mae ukemi (forward rolling) instruction, first from kneeling, then from standing, focusing on form (as a precursor, teach orenaite-unbendable arm). Either irimi kaitenage or ikkyo nage for technique practice, letting new students set up to roll safely.

5th week: as above, as appropriate

6th week: as above, as appropriate

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SeiserL
07-18-2002, 10:39 AM
Rolling, forward and back, are taught from day one. Without the ability to take the fall/roll, you cannot really practice the waza.

Until again,

Lynn