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aikishrine
06-07-2009, 11:36 AM
Is there a difference in these two terms as to there philosophies?

Carsten Möllering
06-07-2009, 12:15 PM
Hi

I think ...

... the first and main intent of bushido is complete submission under a daimyo or someone comparable. So it is a sociological or social concept which tells how to behave.

... budo is the way of seeking personal development by practicing a martial art. So it is a technical and individual concept, which is about how to be.

Carsten

judojo
06-08-2009, 07:40 AM
Hi Brian Northrup, I read your nice Topic on Bushido versus Budo.The Bushido is the Samurai Warrior of the Nippon Empire, they are the Military and Shugon or Police of the Nippon Royal Political Empire, they are under the Royal King Emperor. But the Budo is the Martial Arts of Japan, It was thought in Schools of Japan as prescribe by the Nippon Laws of Education , thus the defense of individual of all Japanese people. And so therefor they are not opposing to both of these Words. Because the Bushido must Master the Budo, before he become a Samurai and Bushido.

Ketsan
06-08-2009, 03:33 PM
Is there a difference in these two terms as to there philosophies?

First off I'd say that the Budo and Bushido have identical spiritual goals: to produce someone that's mastered themself, the difference is in intent for that self mastery.
Budo has no martial intention. Bushido uses self mastery for purely martial reasons. You can be doing both at the same time though and that's Aikido, in some places.

For example, Kendo is budo but kendo has no practical martial application, it's just use of a martial style system to produce non-martial goals. So there is no intention in Kendo to produce a competant fighting man or woman, there is no martial intention behind it, self mastery is the goal.

Aikido, in some dojo anyway, is two fold, either by design or by accident. Whatever the intentions of O-Sensei there are people that study it and teach it for self defence, there is at least in places in the Aikido world, a martial intent it's not just a tool for making nice people.

Ron Tisdale
06-08-2009, 03:38 PM
Heh, I'm still confused by the attachment to the word "Bushido". I know we've hashed that out in another thread, but I still don't understand the attachment.

Is it the sound of the word? Is it the dubious connection to "samurai"? What is it about that word that attracts so much?

Best,
Ron

Mark Uttech
06-08-2009, 06:21 PM
Onegaishimasu. 'Bushido' carries with it the scent of the 'world of the Samurai'. I personally never got attached to the word, but in my beginning foray into the world of Japanese martial arts it seemed like an important word to add to your vocabulary; a signpost; something like that. Those of us who got into Aikido quickly replaced the word with 'Budo', which was supposed to be farther on down the road or something like that.

In gassho,

Mark

Mark Uttech
06-08-2009, 06:25 PM
Onegaishimasu. Silly me, I forgot to address the thread which is about the difference of the two terms, Bushido and Budo. By far the best description I read of Budo was that on the one hand, it meant
"to stop the thrusting spear" and on the other hand (and I love this!) it meant: "hey you! stop thrusting with the spear!"

In gassho,

Mark

Charles Hill
06-08-2009, 07:00 PM
In the book Aikido The Way of Harmony. Rinjiro Shirata says, "During the war, we were told that Bushido means to learn how to die. I learned that this is not the real budo; real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."

Chuck Clark
06-08-2009, 07:19 PM
" ... real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."

YES! Using the principles, techniques, and discipline of bujutsu, we learn the Way of understanding self and how to get along with others.

I think Kano's "Seiryoku zenyo" and "Jita kyoei" say it succinctly.

Josh Reyer
06-08-2009, 08:37 PM
Budo - way of attainment through the study of combat.

Bushido - way of attainment through being a hereditary caste of sword-carrying bureaucrats.

aikishrine
06-08-2009, 10:18 PM
In the book Aikido The Way of Harmony. Rinjiro Shirata says, "During the war, we were told that Bushido means to learn how to die. I learned that this is not the real budo; real budo is to learn how to live, how to live together with others in harmony and peace."

Some might say in the Japanese thought, learning how to die was and is in fact learning how to live.

Charles Hill
06-09-2009, 02:01 AM
Some might say in the Japanese thought, learning how to die was and is in fact learning how to live.

Hi Brian,

The question that popped into my mind when I read your quote is "Who, specifically does 'Some' refer to?" Because obviously Shirata Sensei disagreed with what you wrote, and, in my eyes, who would be a greater authority than him?

Charles

StevieT
06-09-2009, 04:42 AM
The problem with learning how to die is that it's so hard to find a good teacher.

Anybody who claims to have mastered this art is clearly lying!

aikishrine
06-09-2009, 07:47 AM
Hi Brian,

The question that popped into my mind when I read your quote is "Who, specifically does 'Some' refer to?" Because obviously Shirata Sensei disagreed with what you wrote, and, in my eyes, who would be a greater authority than him?

Charles

I guess when i say some i mean the samurai. If you read Hagakure, or Bushido or some other classics on Japanese philosophy, they all seem to me to place a great emphasis on learning how to die in a dignified manner, with grace and courage.

Ron Tisdale
06-09-2009, 07:56 AM
Cough..."Classics"??? Hmmm...

Best,
Ron (I think I'd better shut up now)

Rennis Buchner
06-09-2009, 08:49 AM
Cough..."Classics"??? Hmmm...

Best,
Ron (I think I'd better shut up now)

Move along, move along, nothing to see here....

Rennis

Ron Tisdale
06-09-2009, 08:55 AM
:D :D :D

Best,
Ron

Josh Reyer
06-09-2009, 09:05 AM
I guess when i say some i mean the samurai. If you read Hagakure, or Bushido or some other classics on Japanese philosophy, they all seem to me to place a great emphasis on learning how to die in a dignified manner, with grace and courage.

Yamamoto Tsunemoto, author of the Hagakure, who never raised his sword in anger: "I have found that Bushido (the Way of the Warrior) is in death."

Miyamoto Musashi, author of the Go Rin no Sho, who'd actually put his life on the line in combat: "Generally speaking, when people contemplate the heart of warrior (bushi) thought, they consider it no better than as a way in which being a warrior is simply in dying. But the way of dying is not limited to warriors alone. For even monks, women, farmers, and the classes below them, there is no distinction in their having a sense of duty, in knowing shame, and in being resolved in their own deaths. What is most basic in the Way of practicing the martial arts is overcoming your opponent in each and any event, whether in victory over a single opponent in a duel, or in victory in a fight with a number of men."

Ketsan
06-09-2009, 12:57 PM
Yamamoto Tsunemoto, author of the Hagakure, who never raised his sword in anger: "I have found that Bushido (the Way of the Warrior) is in death."

Miyamoto Musashi, author of the Go Rin no Sho, who'd actually put his life on the line in combat: "Generally speaking, when people contemplate the heart of warrior (bushi) thought, they consider it no better than as a way in which being a warrior is simply in dying. But the way of dying is not limited to warriors alone. For even monks, women, farmers, and the classes below them, there is no distinction in their having a sense of duty, in knowing shame, and in being resolved in their own deaths. What is most basic in the Way of practicing the martial arts is overcoming your opponent in each and any event, whether in victory over a single opponent in a duel, or in victory in a fight with a number of men."

I always thought that the point of "the way of the warrior is found in death" stuff was so that you accepted that you were dead, got past your fear of death and so could get on with life more effectively.

In the heat of the moment you can't worry about survival if you already think of yourself as dead, so you have one less thing to distract you from doing what you need to do to stay alive.

The other point of learning how to die is to learn how to act with dignity even under the most demanding of circumstances, to learn not to telegraph what's going on in your head to an opponent.

Imagine the psychological impact of fighting someone that shows no pain or fear and contrast it with the psychological impact of fighting someone who is clearly afraid and does show pain when you wound them. If you've ever been told off for groaning or pulling a face when sankyo is slammed on, you know what I'm talking about.

Despite searching in vain, there is a quote somewhere that it's the man that throws his life away that survives while the man eager to save his life usually get's killed for just this reason. If I find the quote I'll post it.

Learning to die is not just learning to go and get killed, it's learning how to be in control of yourself in life threatening situations so that you're more likely to be successful.

Charles Hill
06-09-2009, 05:06 PM
Hey Brian,
Thanks for replying.

classics on Japanese philosophy.

You have got to run, not walk, to the bookstore and pick up Thomas Cleary's The Japanese Art of War. You will absolutely love it and learn so much that will complement what you have already read!

Good luck,
Charles

aikishrine
06-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Hey Brian,
Thanks for replying.

You have got to run, not walk, to the bookstore and pick up Thomas Cleary's The Japanese Art of War. You will absolutely love it and learn so much that will complement what you have already read!

Good luck,
Charles

Thank Charles, i will go check it out tomorrow. I am always looking for good books to read.

Josh Reyer
06-09-2009, 08:35 PM
I always thought that the point of "the way of the warrior is found in death" stuff was so that you accepted that you were dead, got past your fear of death and so could get on with life more effectively.
Originally, that's what was about. By Yamamoto's time, though, it had become a kind of death fetish, with men committing junshi (suicide following the death of one's lord) for no good reason, to the point that junshi was outlawed. This was the case of Yamamoto in specific, in that the Hagakure was written after he'd retired into the countryside after being denied the right to commit suicide.

Suru
06-09-2009, 09:08 PM
In America, bushido tends to lead to the chivalry of the ronin samurai because here, there really is no one for a person to serve with his life. The only exception I can think of right now is the Secret Service agents who would take a bullet for the president. Sure, I've served managers and company owners, but I would never put myself in a state of hardcore self-sacrifice for them. I believe many of the attributes surrounding bushido embody the characters of some people in the U.S. However, there are many, many more people in this country who aren't bad people per se, but they are only in it for number one (themselves).

Budo is, I suppose by direct translation, the martial path. I remember growing up with my friend who did karate. He is one of the gentlest guys I've known. He had rubber nunchaku and a green belt, I believe. We were ~11 at the time. After watching MC Hammer and his parachute pants on MTV, I distinctly remember (flashbulb memory) asking him if he "could [kick someone's butt]." His response was insane to me at the time. He said, "[I'm not supposed to actually use karate]." I was caught between the absurdity and beauty of what he said. It struck some neurological connection in my head and made perfect sense. Why I didn't take up karate that week is beyond me.

Drew

Keith Larman
06-09-2009, 10:00 PM
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.

Peter Goldsbury
06-10-2009, 03:15 AM
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.

I am planning to discuss Yamamoto, Nitobe et al in Column 16.

PAG

Keith Larman
06-10-2009, 02:41 PM
I am planning to discuss Yamamoto, Nitobe et al in Column 16.

PAG

That would be fantastic.

It would be nice to be able to excerpt that section just for discussions like these.

Don_Modesto
06-10-2009, 04:07 PM
I do hereby formally suggest someone put together all the various posts on the umpteen threads that cover Bushido, Hagakure, etc. into one concise article. Then we need a button on the reply to thread page that allows easy direct insertion of the text directly into a reply.Here, here!

And while we're at it, why don't we get Jun to upgrade the damn software to one with a search func...

Oh, it does?...

Never mind...

Ron Tisdale
06-10-2009, 04:13 PM
LOL! You wascally wascal you... :D
B,
R

Charles Hill
06-10-2009, 04:41 PM
I remember that when I was about 12, I bought Nitobe's Bushido. It was from the same publishers as Black Belt Magazine, Ohara Publications, a small paperback with absolutely beautiful photographs of trees, beaches,etc. I especially remember a photo of grass that looked like a bunch of swords sticking up. It was a magical book at that, for me, a magical time, reading about honor, chivalry, benevolence. A world that was quite different from the one I was experiencing around me.

I felt quite isolated in my love for the martial arts, and all things Asia. I would have loved to have had a community of like minded people to talk and share this excitement with, I think of how I might have felt to then hear, "Aw man, that topic's been done to death." "Dude, do a little research before you post that crap." Hey, there is a seach function, you know."

Years ago, I memorized the 7 virtues of the samurai from the book, now I can only come up with one, benevolence. But maybe that is the important one, the one that is needed most.

Buck
06-10-2009, 08:50 PM
I remember that when I was about 12, I bought Nitobe's Bushido. It was from the same publishers as Black Belt Magazine, Ohara Publications, a small paperback with absolutely beautiful photographs of trees, beaches,etc. I especially remember a photo of grass that looked like a bunch of swords sticking up. It was a magical book at that, for me, a magical time, reading about honor, chivalry, benevolence. A world that was quite different from the one I was experiencing around me.


I don't know if you read the post exchange between PAG, and myself where we discussed, in a different thread, Nitobe. In that discussion I quoted Nitobe, from a copy of the same book you remember. I too like it.

aikishrine
06-10-2009, 09:55 PM
You know if you guys dont like the thread, then dont post on it.

Keith Larman
06-10-2009, 10:35 PM
You know, I just spent a huge amount of time writing up a long, detailed response trying to explain the issue. Which is of course the problem with these sorts of issues and was why I wrote what I did originally.

But... Never mind. It is apparently not what you want to read.

Hopefully when Dr. Goldsbury puts out installment 16 some will take the time to read it and try to understand it. I know I will. Till then -- sorry for the intrusion.

Ron Tisdale
06-11-2009, 07:37 AM
You know if you guys dont like the thread, then dont post on it.

Hi Brian, are the suggestions to use the search function, or the requests for standard responses offensive? I could simply say, then don't read them...but that would be inappropriate, I think. Most are trying to find inoffensive ways to point to the moon. Don't be hatin' the finger... ;) As this is an open forum, you have the right to post as you will. Would you deny that same right to others?

I think of how I might have felt to then hear, "Aw man, that topic's been done to death." "Dude, do a little research before you post that crap." Hey, there is a seach function, you know."

Hi Charles, I've been enjoying your posts. I have to object to the word "crap" though. I've been reading these threads, and no one has said that.

To quote another controversial tome (please don't read if easily offended):

When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things." I Cor. xiii. 11.


That answer may seem flippant, but it is not meant to be. We have all experienced periods of isolation, marginalization, persecution. But at least in my life, it has been most helpful to have others encourage me to move beyond that. The angry young man somehow must grow beyond that, if he is to accomplish something significant in his life. I guess the same can be said for the angry young romantic.

Best,
Ron

aikishrine
06-11-2009, 08:55 AM
Maybe the questions i ask have been asked before, i dont know and i dont really care. The reason being is that as time goes by peoples ideas change. What they may have thought some time ago may be completly different today.

I have used the search engine, i have read some older post. But that does not mean the way i ask the question is the same as someone else, or that i catch someone in an enlightend moment and they can shed some new light on the subject. Ya Dig.

Ron Tisdale
06-11-2009, 09:22 AM
I dig. :D And I actually like the fact that you are asking.

But I have to admit, I also like the fact that people are giving perfectly reasonable answers, under the circumstances.

Best,
Ron (I really like the posts that have been contributed to your threads)

Don_Modesto
06-11-2009, 12:32 PM
Years ago, I memorized the 7 virtues of the samurai from the book, now I can only come up with one, benevolence. But maybe that is the important one, the one that is needed most.Respect is another.

Buck
06-11-2009, 03:24 PM
You know if you guys dont like the thread, then dont post on it.

Hey, I feel for you. You are asking a question that really an expert, a real expert, can answer correctly. Most of us are amateurs and will just bicker back and forth. For instance, me being such an amateur, will say Bushido is dead, and has been a marketing tool for McDojo's and for those who find reality a tough place to live in. Budo is well that is something of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" thing, "it a silly place."

My opinion is these terms are ornamentals in our culture, and have become trendy words used to impress those not in martial arts- mostly. They are something related to the Japanese and their history, which we earnestly study from afar.

Hope that helps.

Charles Hill
06-11-2009, 05:16 PM
Hi Ron,

Thanks for the reply. The Internet is not a place for subtlety and I see that I failed to clearly get my point across. The comments I put in quotes were not what I think was said, but how I think they will be (and have been already) interpreted. Sorry if I have offended, that's for Don too, sorry.

What I wanted to say was that it seems to me that no one comes here purely for info. Instead perhaps we are all trying to feel connnected in some way. And the percentage of looking for info vs. trying to feel connected varies from person to person. When I see a question or comment that clearly shows the poster has not looked around, then I think that that person has come to connect. For that kind of poster, I think it is more helpful to respond keeping in mind they are looking for something else. That way I can connect with the person and then they will be more open to info.

How's that? Better?:)

Charles

Charles Hill
06-11-2009, 05:40 PM
Hi Buck,

I am afraid that I can no longer like the book. I live in Japan and am raising a family here. Bushido (both the book and the concept) was used as a tool to stupidify (to coin a term) and control a populace leading up to and during WWII. And after the war this never went away, and now there is an amazing lack of culpability, not just about the war, but about everything. So when I see the book, I don't think of samurai virtues like benevolence and respect :), I think of crimes against humanity that people have gotten away with. Funnily/scarily enough, the book is enjoying a bit of popularity again.

Charles

Buck
06-11-2009, 10:16 PM
Hi Buck,

I am afraid that I can no longer like the book. I live in Japan and am raising a family here. Bushido (both the book and the concept) was used as a tool to stupidify (to coin a term) and control a populace leading up to and during WWII. And after the war this never went away, and now there is an amazing lack of culpability, not just about the war, but about everything. So when I see the book, I don't think of samurai virtues like benevolence and respect :), I think of crimes against humanity that people have gotten away with. Funnily/scarily enough, the book is enjoying a bit of popularity again.

Charles

Hi,

I am aware of that hypocrisy too. I don't have strong feelings about it, like yourself. Well, that's because I am not of Japanese ancestry or Japanese, or live in Japan, I guess there is no personal involvement. I like this book over other publishers because the way it was done. Like you mention the pictures they used, I liked them too. I liked the feel/style of the book that they did. The pictures they choose and the layout. The contents, well I already discussed that with PAG and I didn't want to be redundant.

I have been fortunate to speak to many Japanese living here and in Japan. And of what you describe there is generally two areas I see that I can place those discussions in. Some supportive of the Japanese WWII effort. Others not. Now as far as Americans. There are those who fought in WWII and opposed the Japanese, and have bitter feelings about things like the "Death Marches". And those put in American who where put into camps, who where Americans of Japanese ancestry. I know one family who lost their farm and had to buy it back twice, and very bitter about it. Or friend's grandparents who spent time in the camps as kids and had have no resounding anger to the loss of their homes and the other hardships they suffered.

Hypocrisy it isn't exclusive to the Japanese. It is my understanding it is pretty rampant in many Asian governments, China is a big gone. And hypocrisy is also big in the Western world way back to Athens in the 4th Century BC. And the bible has been used in worse ways and justifications by scads of peoples, then Nitobe's book. I am not surprised it was misused, and I personally don't discount the book because it was a tool misused and twisted by a government or a political party, FWIW. :) I guess cause I don't live in Japan and it is a matter that doesn't touch me. I look at it as something that the Japanese have to deal with, and I am on the outside looking in. Thank you for your thoughts. :)

Ron Tisdale
06-12-2009, 07:24 AM
DOH! [Smacks head]ho boy. :D [/smacks head]

Yeah, I kinda missed the boat on that one.

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,

Thanks for the reply. The Internet is not a place for subtlety and I see that I failed to clearly get my point across. The comments I put in quotes were not what I think was said, but how I think they will be (and have been already) interpreted. Sorry if I have offended, that's for Don too, sorry.

What I wanted to say was that it seems to me that no one comes here purely for info. Instead perhaps we are all trying to feel connnected in some way. And the percentage of looking for info vs. trying to feel connected varies from person to person. When I see a question or comment that clearly shows the poster has not looked around, then I think that that person has come to connect. For that kind of poster, I think it is more helpful to respond keeping in mind they are looking for something else. That way I can connect with the person and then they will be more open to info.

How's that? Better?:)

Charles