Carrying Weapons [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

DonMagee

06-04-2009, 11:47 AM

For the life of me, I can't figure out what the people who are constantly worried about being physically attacked are doing to put themselves in such situations. I live in a densely-populated suburban/urban area (Los Angeles), I regularly go out into public where there are tens of thousands of people around me, and I even occasionally go to events/places where people are consuming copious quantities of alcohol. With all of that, I have felt my physical safety threatened by others maybe a half-dozen times at the most, and I believe that the martial awareness I've developed has enabled me to make intelligent decisions that have avoided physical confrontations completely.

For me, the greatest self-defense aspect of martial arts has been this awareness and confidence. Master those, and (knock on wood) the rest seems to take care of itself.

My biggest self defense concerns are really just straight up robberies. The county north of me has one of the highest unemployment ratings of the entire country. The market is such that I would lose my ass if I tried to sell my house and move. So I'm stuck, and the meth trade just 10-20 miles from here is rising.

I live in a good area with little crime, but the area's I need to go to are growing increasingly worse. They bust a meth lab every other week it seems and car jackings out of store parking lots are growing, they even had one happen in daylight. My own area has a recent spurt of break ins. In two instances someone was home sleeping upstairs and caught the guys in the act. Luckly they fled. But what if they didn't?

So I guess I have to decide if I'm a prepared to fight a meth head over 20 bucks. In response I have increased my training in the use and retention of my Walther PPS and started carrying it every day.
Unlike my other pistols this one is reasonable to carry, light, and basically invisible.

I consider that more self defense then all of my martial art training combined. You can't get much easier then a point and click interface.

Ron Tisdale

06-04-2009, 01:35 PM

So I guess I have to decide if I'm a prepared to fight a meth head over 20 bucks. In response I have increased my training in the use and retention of my Walther PPS and started carrying it every day.

Hi Don,

One of my concerns about carrying a gun myself is touched on by your statement here. What do I do if I'm carrying, and a meth-head asks me for my 20 bucks? Let's say I'm wearing a shoulder holster, and my cash is in a shirt pocket, and both are covered by a jacket. In opening my jacket to give him the money my weapon is now displayed.

What if he now sees it and decides to charge me? (I know, its probably more likely he'll run away, but since I'm making all of this up...) I have to shoot him now...I really don't want to engage in a weapons retention exercise with him. Over 20 bucks. I know the obvious answer is to keep my money where I don't display the weapon while giving up the cash. But hey, summer is almost here and its hot. Do I carry on my hip where it is visible?

Just currious on your thoughts.

Best,
Ron

DonMagee

06-05-2009, 10:21 AM

Hi Don,

One of my concerns about carrying a gun myself is touched on by your statement here. What do I do if I'm carrying, and a meth-head asks me for my 20 bucks? Let's say I'm wearing a shoulder holster, and my cash is in a shirt pocket, and both are covered by a jacket. In opening my jacket to give him the money my weapon is now displayed.

What if he now sees it and decides to charge me? (I know, its probably more likely he'll run away, but since I'm making all of this up...) I have to shoot him now...I really don't want to engage in a weapons retention exercise with him. Over 20 bucks. I know the obvious answer is to keep my money where I don't display the weapon while giving up the cash. But hey, summer is almost here and its hot. Do I carry on my hip where it is visible?

Just currious on your thoughts.

Best,
Ron

Actually, this very reason is why I choose the Walther PPS as my carry. It's so small that it is basically invisible with a IWB carry. But it holds 7 9mm or 6 .40 S&W rounds.

I used to carry a SA XD9c. It held a lot more rounds, but was very hard to conceal and not comfortable for IWB carry. If I moved wrong, you could tell I was wearing a gun. All the other firearms I found that were smaller then the XD9c either fired a round I wasn't comfortable with (too small of a round) or just felt cheap in construction. With my walther PPS I actually carry IWB right above my wallet. The thing is invisible. I don't even need to worry about what I wear, I can wear shorts and a tshirt that just almost barely covers my belt and it is 100% hidden. Let's put it this way, my wife didn't even know I started carrying again. And she used to always complain about it. It's the first pistol I've been able to wear in that position and drive or sit for long periods without even noticing. In terms of lost round capacity. I think that if I need more than 7 rounds I'm not in a self defense situation anymore. I'm in a firefight! If I was preparing for a firefight I'd bring my rifle.

So I feel I have the option. I can reach back and grab my wallet, or with the same motion grab my pistol. I even have a tuckable IWB so I can wear the pistol with my dress pants and shirts. If I wore dress jackets I might go shoulder carry, but I'm a shorts and tshirt guy in the summer.

In the winter I move to a hip carry because I'm always wearing a jacket of some type and it hangs over and covers well enough. I might move to a shoulder carry this winter. At that point I might comment on it better.

It is a very tough decision if you should draw or not. Most of my friends say draw and hold for the police. I'm not sure if I would do that. I don't carry cash very often, so giving him my wallet doesn't hurt me financially as I can call my credit card company and bank to cancel and reissue everything. But the guy would then have my address, name, and firearm permit. I'm not sure if it is safe for him to have those things. So I'm leaning to drawing, except for if he really is a meth head that probably means killing him. I guess I just hope that the situation is more cut and dry (aka he's trying to hurt me).

Ron Tisdale

06-05-2009, 10:37 AM

Excellent and very thoughtfull response. Much appreciated.

I've never owned a firearm myself, but occationally I have considered it, and the cautions that would go along with it. Your reasoning seems to be a good model for me to follow if I ever do take that step.

Draw and hold for the police sounds good...and if he wants to run, let him run. But I guess the other thought is, if I'm drawing, draw and shoot. That is the way I tend to approach a knife...if I'm drawing the knife in self defense, I am NOT displaying it (I personally prefer a reverse grip with the back of the blade along my forearm). The fight is already on, I am already concerned for my life, and I'm using it. Do not display, because the less my attacker knows the better.

These weapons discussions are complicated, aren't they? But better to have your path mapped out ahead of time (as much as possible).

Best,
Ron

Mark Kruger

06-05-2009, 12:31 PM

These weapons discussions are complicated, aren't they? But better to have your path mapped out ahead of time (as much as possible).

Yup. :)

You can really see this when you do force-on-force scenarios. Folks who have a plan for unknown contact management and what to do and say after force has been used do much better.

An example:
The final scenario for a force-on-force class was for each student to go to the instructor's car alone and retrieve some paperwork. In the parking lot I get accosted by a mugger with a knife. No matter my actions (or my classmates), the mugger attacks. It took lethal force to get him to stop attacking. After applying lethal force a gentleman identifying himself as a police officer tells me to not move and then to slowly put the gun down (he was outside my line of sight). I was cuffed, interviewed at the scene, placed in a holding cell, and interviewed again before the end of the scenario.

One of my classmates, caught totally by surprise didn't obey the commands and turned, with the gun, towards the voice. He was shot by the officer since my classmate was turning the gun on the officer. Another classmate, unprepared to talk to law enforcement, made statements that conflicted with the actual events and implied that he was looking for the fight. This would have caused him severe problems with a prosecutor.

Drawing a firearm when lethal force isn't required for self defense has a name. Brandishing. In most jurisdictions this is a crime. Any weapon should only be deployed if there is a reason for the weapon's use that can be articulated. This often puts the good guy behind the initiative curve and results in the weapon being deployed in the middle of the fight.

Ron Tisdale

06-05-2009, 12:54 PM

Hi Mark, thanks for posting. I take it you are an LEO? Your perspective both here and in the other thread is very valuable.

Drawing a firearm when lethal force isn't required for self defense has a name. Brandishing. In most jurisdictions this is a crime. Any weapon should only be deployed if there is a reason for the weapon's use that can be articulated.

So if I draw and hold a suspect (along with the inherent risk in displaying your weapon), I had better have a good story for when the cops get there, huh?

This often puts the good guy behind the initiative curve and results in the weapon being deployed in the middle of the fight.

Do you have any suggestions about this last predicament? In terms of a knife, I often carry something that can be used as a weighted punch, then you can deploy the blade *after* creating space from the initial attack. A leatherman tool is one example of this...I can get that out of the pouch on my fanny pack quickly, but deploying the blade on those is clumsy. So my first thought is to strike with it in my fist unopened, then deploy the blade if needed after creating a gap.

Best,
Ron (thanks for seperating this out Jun)

DonMagee

06-05-2009, 05:24 PM

That is one of the things I like about my state. It is very pro self defense. So much so that they even allow deadly force to protect your property, and not just your life. Now I'm not going to kill someone over my cell phone, but I would kill them over my car or maybe even my TV.

I've talked to several officers in my area and they said they would be ok with you holding someone at gun point as long as they were informed prior to reaching the scene. The hard part then becomes calling the police while holding a gun on someone.

I'm not an advocate of using the gun as a threat however. I've strongly enforced the belief that if you pull it you must shoot and if you shoot you must shoot to kill.

lbb

06-05-2009, 06:02 PM

Now I'm not going to kill someone over my cell phone, but I would kill them over my car or maybe even my TV.

Seriously? I can only imagine what it would feel like to end someone's life to save a television, but I'm pretty sure it's not a feeling I'd like to live with for the rest of my life.

lifeafter2am

06-05-2009, 06:19 PM

Kevin Leavitt

06-05-2009, 06:49 PM

Mark Krueger wrote:

Drawing a firearm when lethal force isn't required for self defense has a name. Brandishing. In most jurisdictions this is a crime. Any weapon should only be deployed if there is a reason for the weapon's use that can be articulated. This often puts the good guy behind the initiative curve and results in the weapon being deployed in the middle of the fight

Which is the main reason I don't carry a gun or even consider it in the civilian world. The risk to return ratio is just not there IMO.

There are some instances where I think I would carry. Bike trip alone, camping/hiking alone, driving a car on the road alone.

In those situations, where you have a "bad guy" and he has the ability to "fix" your position and has "Intel" essentially on you, I think it is reasonable and maybe prudent to consider a handgun.

You can keep distance from a guy/guys and tell him "stay away" and have the means to do so.

In a typical urban environment, I can't see having the ability to actually deploy it, when typically the bad guy has suprised you and closed distance on you. The escalation of force happens too quickly as your scenarios state.

I think I would probably be more danger to myself and others carrying a weapon.

Then again, I could be wrong.

I do lots of biking, camping etc and travel the world to remote places that you might think it would be nice to carry a weapon. Never have, and have never really felt the need to to be honest.

Although, I do believe there are situations in which it might be prudent as stated above.

Kevin Leavitt

06-05-2009, 06:54 PM

Ron Tisdale wrote:

Do you have any suggestions about this last predicament? In terms of a knife, I often carry something that can be used as a weighted punch, then you can deploy the blade *after* creating space from the initial attack. A leatherman tool is one example of this...I can get that out of the pouch on my fanny pack quickly, but deploying the blade on those is clumsy. So my first thought is to strike with it in my fist unopened, then deploy the blade if needed after creating a gap.

You have a good grasp on the knife issue Ron, IMO.

I chose my last tactical folder based on the fact that it was big enough to protrude from my hand and actually had a nice pommel on the bottom.

The rule of 21 applies to knifes as well. Most scenarios I have trained in, I have found that I deploy it in phases. One forming a frame with hands to create distance. Two, drawing the knife, then striking with the pommel end to keep/gain more distance. Three, openning the blade to use it.

I still think a good old fashioned kubaton is one of the best self defense weapons around. It is lethal, controlable, and if dropped or lost, most folks won't possess the knowledge or skill to be able to use it against you effectively or offensively.

Kevin Leavitt

06-05-2009, 07:01 PM

I try and establish a "safe room" in the house. Retreat to the safe room, with a reinforced door. Have a cell phone and weapon if you choose. Let them take whatever they want. Don't leave the room until the police arrive. If they try and break into the safe room, then by all means I believe you are then justifiable in using lethal force as self defense.

I think this is adequate escalation of force criteria, and common sense.

Moving toward a guy in the open and trying to draw on them and hold them with a pointed gun is very risky, especially when the police arrive.

If the suspect doesn't comply, then you have issues, unless that is, you live in one of the Castle law states.

I am not a fan of Castle Laws.

Well, if your car, house, or whatnot is taken by ambush or suprise. How are you going to regain control of the situation and be able to use the weapon anyway?

What do you do when the police arrive in the dark and try and figure out who the bad guy is?

lots of variables.

I would recommend if you have a gun, to not just think about it, but to actually put yourself in the what if scenarios and replicate them and learn from them as Mark K talks about above.

DonMagee

06-06-2009, 01:08 AM

Seriously? I can only imagine what it would feel like to end someone's life to save a television, but I'm pretty sure it's not a feeling I'd like to live with for the rest of my life.

I would sleep fine. They know the risks and they decided the path was worth it. I work hard for what I have and I have decided that my quality of life is more important then the lives of people who would ruin my quality of life.

You have to pick a point where you are willing to take a stand. Is mental harm enough? Just physical harm? If you know you can't beat the guy unarmed, and you know he won't kill you should you take the butt kicking or shoot him?

Stealing my car is a lot of mental anguish to me. Not only did you waste a ton of my time while I go though the insurance and rentals and police reports. But I have to live everyday knowing some lowlife was smarter then I was and got the drop on me. I don't know if I could ever feel safe again knowing someone took something I worked years to get.

It's easy to say I'll only kill in a life or death situation. But really that is not true for anyone. Would you kill someone if they were raping someone in front of you? A rape is violent but probably will not end in death. Yet I can tell you I would do everything in my power to kill someone in that situation. Similarly (and more realistic as I used rape for shock value) I would kill someone for breaking into my home. Why? Because I know what kind of mental anguish my wife would have knowing some stranger was going though her stuff while we slept upstairs. She actually has worries like "What happens if a tornado comes while we are gone and the cats die." Imagine what a break in would do.

Finally I am a strong advocate of the death penalty in cases where there is no doubt. If you are breaking into my house and carting off my 52 inch TV (See what I did there ;-) ) then there is no doubt you are a criminal. I could say "Oh it's a just a tv, I can get a new one". But it's not a just a TV. By not stopping that act I feel responsible for every single crime that man commits after leaving my presence. I can't live with that on my conscious and I'll sleep knowing I saved other people from living though trauma.

Kevin, I know what you are saying about it being a liability. That is why I like small concealed weapons. Most of my 'use' scenario's are robberies. Which is the growing threat in this area. In which case my reaching for my wallet is the exact same movement as my firearm, and it is almost impossible to know I'm wearing it. As with anything however (and as I know you know) practice makes perfect. I practice a lot on drawing and firing from the hip at close range. I'd also like to practice more drawing and firing from a grappling situation.

I perfect example. A few nights ago while driving home from dinner at about 10:30 I see a truck with it's flashers on and a car off the road in a 6 foot ditch. I pull up and stop to check on these people. This is a common mugging situation. Get the guy out of the car to help and jump him. So while checking the situation I was careful to keep both guys in front of me and a moderate distance between us until I felt comfortable with them. Once we had called a tow truck and the police the guy in the truck left and I let the kid sit in my car. Had I not had my firearm, I would of drove past leaving that kid (he was probably 17) alone with some strange guy in a truck without a cell phone and a few miles to a house. Had it been a setup, I felt reasonably comfortable that I could of controlled the space, pulled my weapon and fired.

In any case, I just hope that I'm carrying around some gun powder, metal, and plastic just for the placebo effect and that the weapon never has to be used outside of a range.

Mike Sigman

06-06-2009, 08:45 PM

I would sleep fine. They know the risks and they decided the path was worth it. Sheep || Goats ;)

mathewjgano

06-06-2009, 11:59 PM

I would sleep fine. They know the risks and they decided the path was worth it. I work hard for what I have and I have decided that my quality of life is more important then the lives of people who would ruin my quality of life.

I have no problem with the idea of taking a life out of necessity. For a TV and the mental anguish over a break-in? I would feel very bad. It's easy to say criminals understand the path they're on, but I would argue many simply do not. I don't mean for it to sound so easy...if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night with my wife and baby sleeping, I'm apt to act with a bit of severity, but I'd like to think where possible I would leave the option for redemption.
...Then again, I'm a SNAG son of a hippy mom.
Good night all,
Matt

Shany

06-07-2009, 02:20 AM

I've got my Katana.. does it count? :D

DonMagee

06-07-2009, 08:56 AM

I have no problem with the idea of taking a life out of necessity. For a TV and the mental anguish over a break-in? I would feel very bad. It's easy to say criminals understand the path they're on, but I would argue many simply do not. I don't mean for it to sound so easy...if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night with my wife and baby sleeping, I'm apt to act with a bit of severity, but I'd like to think where possible I would leave the option for redemption.
...Then again, I'm a SNAG son of a hippy mom.
Good night all,
Matt

Plus, as my wife pointed out to me. How do you know they just wanted your TV. A window breaks at night, someone is downstairs in your house. How do you know they only want the blueray player? You don't.

So I would be able to tell myself the guy was going to rape my wife and kill me. Even if he was just trying to get my TV.

But this is my house, my property, and my family. I'm not going to flee and hope that the police can arrive in time to save my stuff or save me. Especially in my area where the county and city police are not sure who responds to calls and that adds delays of 30 minutes or more. I guess what I'm saying is that if someone comes into my house uninvited, for any reason, I'm going to shoot them then figure out why they were there. If they are going to car jack me I'm going to do my best to get out of the car while grabbing my pistol from between the seats and shoot them. I don't know they only want my car. They probably do, but I'm not risking it. They are using a threat of force to take what they want from me. I'm going to use force to keep what I have. My property and possibly my life.

My mom is a huge anti-gun person. She can't stand that I own one. My father however owns guns for personal protection. I guess it's just living in a pro gun state that has given me my outlook. I've found that I feel more confident knowing that it is there, and at the same time more humble. I don't get into arguments with people, because I know that if it turns physical it won't be a fist fight, someone will get shot. Either myself with my own weapon, or them. That means situations at the mall where I accidentally cut a guy off and he follows me to my parking spot and gets in my face no longer end with me calling him names and egging him on (as I've said, I don't have a flight response, I tend to respond in the manner I am receiving). Instead I realize I have a firearm and just apologize and stand by my car until he leaves. Then I move my car in case he decides to come back and vandalize it.

So if anything, my firearm has stopped more fights then most of the people I could of been fighting with ever knew.

mathewjgano

06-07-2009, 10:26 AM

Plus, as my wife pointed out to me. How do you know they just wanted your TV. A window breaks at night, someone is downstairs in your house. How do you know they only want the blueray player? You don't.

So I would be able to tell myself the guy was going to rape my wife and kill me. Even if he was just trying to get my TV.
Very true, w/ re: the first paragraph. This is why I said I would probably be more severe in such a situation. I just wouldn't assume it. I wouldn't assume the worst, just try to be prepared for it. I've read a lot of posts in the past about that hyperbolic example of the crack-head sneaking up behind you weidling a howitzer as a way of saying, "relax, don't be paranoid." And I agree with that whole-heartedly, but I also understand that isn't saying, "don't be prepared for that 1%-er." If someone's in my house, I have to be prepared for that 1%-er who's willing to do the absolute worst.

But this is my house, my property, and my family. I'm not going to flee and hope that the police can arrive in time to save my stuff or save me.
I'm not worried about my stuff very much. I am very worried about my family and friends. I don't want to sound like I have "the" answer. Sometimes drastic measures are required and I would never want anyone to hesitate under those circumstances. Decisive action is a necessity when confronted by unknown criminals, but I'd like to think that if there was a way to not-harm an attacker, I would. That's all. It's the beauty of the hypothetical I guess. I just think about some of my friends who have done some stupid things in the past, breaking into a store being one of them. If someone had shot these friends for thier momentary stupidity, it would be a genuine shame. It's not an easy world though...all the more reason to train in ways of self-protection, be they handling a gun, handling your own body, or engineering your property to be unfriendly to thieves and other criminals. An ounce of prevention can go a long way to avoiding a tough spot.

My mom is a huge anti-gun person. She can't stand that I own one. My father however owns guns for personal protection. I guess it's just living in a pro gun state that has given me my outlook.
I hear you. My parents were similar to your in this regard. I like to think they've given me a balanced view. I've never been one to respond with violence, but I feel perfectly willing if the situation seems to call for it.
I've found that I feel more confident knowing that it is there, and at the same time more humble. I don't get into arguments with people, because I know that if it turns physical it won't be a fist fight, someone will get shot. Either myself with my own weapon, or them.
I like that you mention the humility. I've known people who'd be less humble because they have a gun and it's those folks we have to look out for.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Don. I appreciate it a lot.
Take care and happy training!
Matt

Franklin Newby

06-07-2009, 02:29 PM

Interesting topic. It's interesting to me because in today's criminal climate, you can get killed even if you acquiesce to demands.

If someone breaks into my home in the dark of the night, I have to assume the intruder(s) knows that people are in the house and are armed for it. There is no time to debate this issue in the blackness of the home. You may have one person trained with your weapon but there could very well be others around the corner (Home invasions/burglaries with 3 or more assailants is a common occurrence on the news). I intend to defend my family first and worry about the intruders feelings later. They have already made the decision to attack, in my mind, by breaking into the private walls of where my children laugh, of violating the home where my family feels safe...possibly intending harm to those that I hold most dear. Time cannot be wasted to me internalizing intentions as the intruder creaks up the hallway.

But the title of this thread is 'carrying weapons' so I'll try and stay on topic.
If I find myself staring down the barrel of a gun in a robbery situation, compliance is merely buying time in my mind. There is no guarantee that I still won't get shot. Would there be enough time to pull a weapon before I get shot at? Is my family with me? How many other assailants are there?
There are lots of variables as Mr. Leavitt stated above.
Having not been in this situation, I can only speculate as to what I might or might not do...what the 'variable' is in that moment. The fact that I may get shot regardless alters the thought of passivism in this scenario. Gun carrying or not.

One can really see how important it is to be vigilant and aware of your surroundings to avoid being put in that difficult situation in the first place.

DonMagee

06-07-2009, 05:00 PM

I was re-reading this and I also wanted to stress the importance of a plan when it comes to defending your home. I'm not going to play the role of walking though my house with my pistol in hand hunting for intruders. I'm going to set myself up at a choke point (my upstairs stairwell and wait. Anything that comes up those stairs is in for a very messy day.

I tell my wife that if she ever hears anything that leads her to believe someone is in the house she should rush to our bedroom and get in the closet. Our closet is about 10 feet deep and has all my firearms in it. There she can grab her most comfortable weapon (I think she likes my XD9 over my 357) and sit with her back to the wall and gun pointed at the door. Then call 911. If that door opens for any reason without my voice first calling out to her then she is to open fire with no questions or warnings until the weapon is out of ammo.

I usually keep my safe open unless I know no one is going to be home for a long period of time. I also tend to keep most of my weapons next to loaded magazines and I keep my 357 loaded at all times.

For carry I always wear my Walther PPS. It comes in 9mm or .40 so it packs a punch. And it's designed perfect for personal protection. It's so small yet has a great feel and it is easy to control. Almost no one knows I carry because they simply can't see it. I was out in shorts and a tshirt all day today and nobody knew. Even my aikido teacher asked me if I carry because he knew I owned a lot of guns. He was surprised when I said every day. In fact it's so comfortable I sometimes forget I'm wearing it. Nothing is more embarrassing then laying down on the couch with your wife and realizing you've been wearing a gun for the whole time. I could never do that with my XD or a glock.

Ron Tisdale

06-08-2009, 06:45 AM

Thanks again for all the posts here. Every now and again I take stock and look at certain decisions I've made, and see if any warrant change. Discussions like this are part of the process.

Someone asked if a katana counts. Well, in most rooms in my house, a katana is clumsy at best. In the bedroom it works better, because it's a vaulted ceiling, but there are book shelves, the bed, dressers and the tv to impede the range of various cuts.

Personally, I believe a large tanto or wakizashi is better suited to self defense in that space, or even just a good machete about the length of a wakizashi. The problem here is those are not "range" weapons, and they require you to be close enough to risk the weapon being taken from you and used against you. Not a huge issue with some training, but not suited for say, my Fiance to use in a pinch (though I've been working with her a bit on hip throws, and she even caught me off guard once! Almost lost a coffee table that time...good girl! :D).

I think taking the time to think about these issues once in a while is the best preparation. Figure out what it is you are willing to do, what risks you are willing to take, etc. Be aware of what risks those choices involve for others.

I don't think a TV is something I would personally kill someone over. But I might make that choice over someone coming into my house where that TV happens to be. As for a car, if someone has a weapon and is demanding the car, I don't know for sure they won't take me or my Fiance hostage. So I'm going to have to go by my gut at the time to decide if its worth putting up a fight to stop that possibility (and for me NOT going with them is probably worth dieing or killing for, esp. for a woman). If I can safely give them the car and not go with them, I'll make that choice, and be glad not to risk taking a life.

Best,
Ron

Mark Kruger

06-08-2009, 10:52 AM

Hi Mark, thanks for posting. I take it you are an LEO? Your perspective both here and in the other thread is very valuable.
No, I'm a private citizen. However, I have done a fair bit of training when it comes to this sort of thing. :) Thanks for the compliment. I try not to post unless I have something worthwhile to contribute.

So if I draw and hold a suspect (along with the inherent risk in displaying your weapon), I had better have a good story for when the cops get there, huh?
Yup. You need to be able to articulate why you thought your life was in danger. The situation might change while drawing the weapon. For example: an assailant threatens to gut you with a knife, you draw, he drops the knife and backs up. Of course the ethically and legal right thing to do then would be to not shoot. Holding suspects is problematical. What if the assailant tries to leave? Someone who is leaving is not much of a threat to your life.

Do you have any suggestions about this last predicament? In terms of a knife, I often carry something that can be used as a weighted punch, then you can deploy the blade *after* creating space from the initial attack. A leatherman tool is one example of this...I can get that out of the pouch on my fanny pack quickly, but deploying the blade on those is clumsy. So my first thought is to strike with it in my fist unopened, then deploy the blade if needed after creating a gap.

It is hard to duplicate an initiative deficit, it might be easier to create the results. The best I can think of is to train with an uneven positional advantage. One person supine, one person standing. One person with a knife out, one person with the knife sheathed. For arts that use a large ma-ai, start at clinch range.

All folders are hard to deploy during an altercation. Some are worse than others. You need to create enough space and time to "unbreak" them. Striking is one option. Another option is to tie up or put out of position the assailant's arm on the side the knife is being drawn from. Even if you carry on the centerline, you have to draw with either your left or right arm. The same principal holds for for firearms.

Lan Powers

06-11-2009, 03:17 PM

It seems odd that so many folks have NEVER faced a lethal/potentially lethal situation. I mean one where you are in position to have to stop a person (and that means all kinds of escalation leading up to and including lethal force)

Two seperate occasions in my whole life....both are unforgettable and constituted a "pivotal" moment in my life.
Everything is different now, after you face the question of "What will you do?"
Thankfully both occassions de-escalated before someone (Them)
was shot. But the issue of protecting younger/dependant sibs will make your mind up fast.
Don't draw without intent to shoot.
Don't aim to hit anywhere but center of mass...(if it is safe enough for you to make a "trick" shot ie: gun out of the hand, aim for the leg, etc. then you aren't in qualifying danger to warrant the shooting, to my minds eye)
And make DAMN sure he will not get back up to continue....(now he's mad and hurt, and etc. etc.)

Pray you never need it, but being prepared is just prudent.
Your mileage may vary, but the issue DOES come up.....
And it would be one of the worst things in the world to do, shooting someone.
Lan

Cephallus

06-11-2009, 06:17 PM

It seems odd that so many folks have NEVER faced a lethal/potentially lethal situation. I mean one where you are in position to have to stop a person (and that means all kinds of escalation leading up to and including lethal force)

It's funny, because I was just thinking that it's odd that even as many who've admitted so have had, or expect to have, to face a potentially lethal confrontation.

:D

Personally, I view home invasion as an entirely different ethical situation than property theft. If I come home to find someone in my home stealing things, I will leave immediately and call 911. If someone is in my garage stealing things in the middle of the night, I will make sure all of my doors are locked, that my family is locked away safely again in another room of the house, and call 911. If I look out and someone is stealing my car stereo, I will call 911. None of those situations would even cause me to consider the possibility of using lethal force on another human being.

Breaking into my house in the middle of the night is completely different. I've got four people to protect that are not capable of protecting themselves against an attacker; my wife and three children (including two with special needs). I have meditated on exactly this issue before, trying to reconcile my moral and spiritual beliefs with the need to protect my family...and have come to the decision that the moment I feel that my family is in direct danger, I will do whatever it takes to neutralize that danger, with certainty, and will deal with the legal, moral, and spiritual repercussions of my actions after.

Janet Rosen

06-11-2009, 06:39 PM

It seems odd that so many folks have NEVER faced a lethal/potentially lethal situation. I mean one where you are in position to have to stop a person (and that means all kinds of escalation leading up to and including lethal force)

I don't think its odd at all, in the USA, unless a person is military or law enforcement connected and most of their family/friends are as well.

Personally I've had my share of typically hairy urban experiences but mostly I did not consider them potentially lethal and I daresay most of my hardcore NY friends and family who have been mugged wouldn't categorize the experience as lethal/potentially lethal because both parties knew the role to be played and played it and nobody got hurt.

The one and only time I pulled a weapon fully expecting to use it was the night I heard an entry through the bathroom window, opposite my bedroom. Up in a flash, gun in hand and aiming at what seemed to be a good position at the doorway....and in strolled my neighbor's cat, looked up, and meowed. :-)

Took a while for the adrenaline level to ramp down....

Ron Tisdale

06-12-2009, 06:36 AM

gun in hand and aiming at what seemed to be a good position at the doorway....and in strolled my neighbor's cat, looked up, and meowed. :-)

Took a while for the adrenaline level to ramp down....
Man Janet! Whew...I can only imagine.

Best,
Ron

Randy Sexton

06-14-2009, 03:11 AM

Worth mentioning is advice to not show your weapon as intimidation or for effect. You lose the element of surprise and you give them time to consider how to respond to your specific weapon. If they have a weapon out already they may panic and use it before you use yours.
Janet's response was not for show. She was ready and prepared.

Also, to show your weapon or "brandishing a weapon" to threaten or intimidate someone in most states is considered illegal and a threat to someone's personal safety and probably will get you arrested if not killed.
I believe one of the goals of our Aikido training is to teach us to overcome our ego pride and not to fight over trivial stuff. Fight to defend yourself or others because their live is in danger not their pride or yours.

IMHO and based on my past experiences in which I have been confronted with weapons it is best to stay calm, talk softly but confidently, watch their friends as well, and walk away slowly, never ever turn your back as you leave, and if you must defend yourself do it as though your life depends on it because it does!

Stay calm, Stay confident, Stay humble, Stay alive!

Doc

DonMagee

06-16-2009, 09:44 PM

It's funny, because I was just thinking that it's odd that even as many who've admitted so have had, or expect to have, to face a potentially lethal confrontation.

:D

Personally, I view home invasion as an entirely different ethical situation than property theft. If I come home to find someone in my home stealing things, I will leave immediately and call 911. If someone is in my garage stealing things in the middle of the night, I will make sure all of my doors are locked, that my family is locked away safely again in another room of the house, and call 911. If I look out and someone is stealing my car stereo, I will call 911. None of those situations would even cause me to consider the possibility of using lethal force on another human being.

Breaking into my house in the middle of the night is completely different. I've got four people to protect that are not capable of protecting themselves against an attacker; my wife and three children (including two with special needs). I have meditated on exactly this issue before, trying to reconcile my moral and spiritual beliefs with the need to protect my family...and have come to the decision that the moment I feel that my family is in direct danger, I will do whatever it takes to neutralize that danger, with certainty, and will deal with the legal, moral, and spiritual repercussions of my actions after.

Sorry for the late reply. I've been busy. In the case you described, if I wasn't going to intervene (which I would), then I wouldn't even call 911, because in my area 911 is never going to get a police response anywhere near in time. I'd just sit tight and call the normal police when it's over to make a report.

However, I would call 911, report it and then go protect my property. If they guys don't resist then they have a good chance of going to jail whenever the police arrive. If they do resist, well then they are going to have the worst day of their life.

They can pick their poison (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1840020&l=ddb56530a7&id=849374733).

*edit* yes I just used this as an excuse to post a few shots of my gun collection :-p

oisin bourke

06-17-2009, 06:28 AM

They can pick their poison (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=1840020&l=ddb56530a7&id=849374733).

*edit* yes I just used this as an excuse to post a few shots of my gun collection :-p

My God... isn't one enough?

Hogan

06-17-2009, 06:47 AM

My God... isn't one enough?

One can never have enough.

DonMagee

06-17-2009, 08:37 AM

My God... isn't one enough?

You can' t very well call one a collection can you? Besides, if one is good, then 20 is really awesome.

It works with beer, weapons, cars, tv's, women....I kid I kid.

Mark Kruger

06-17-2009, 04:26 PM

My God... isn't one enough?

Ever try and play golf with one club? You wouldn't use a putter for a long drive and you wouldn't use a wood to get out of a sand trap. Each club type has it's own strengths and weaknesses based on it's intended use.

Firearms are like that. Pistols and rifles are terrible for skeet. A precision bolt action rifle isn't suited for self defense. A pistol suitable for self defense makes for a poor hunting tool.

Having said that most folks are collectors. Having the tool is more important than being able to use the tool for most folks. Of course this extends past the firearms world. Otherwise wall-hanger "samurai" swords wouldn't exist.

DonMagee

06-18-2009, 08:43 AM

Ever try and play golf with one club? You wouldn't use a putter for a long drive and you wouldn't use a wood to get out of a sand trap. Each club type has it's own strengths and weaknesses based on it's intended use.

Firearms are like that. Pistols and rifles are terrible for skeet. A precision bolt action rifle isn't suited for self defense. A pistol suitable for self defense makes for a poor hunting tool.

Having said that most folks are collectors. Having the tool is more important than being able to use the tool for most folks. Of course this extends past the firearms world. Otherwise wall-hanger "samurai" swords wouldn't exist.

Exactly, I have no real useful purpose for owning a AK-47 (WASR) or a AR-15. You don't hunt with them, they are impractical for self defense, and I don't think a land war in the US is coming anytime soon (Red Dawn baby!). I own them for enjoyment only. I like to clean them, look at them and take them to the range. Now my Walthers and my 357 are useful tools with a dedicated purpose. I wouldn't want to carry my 357 and I wouldn't want my Walther PPS in my night stand. I'd much rather have the PPS for a small easy to hide carry, and the 357 for the raw reliability, ease of use, and shear man stopping power.

Rob Watson

06-18-2009, 10:59 AM

My God... isn't one enough?

One is exactly enough ... if it is in your hands when you need it. Otherwise, even a million are useless.

Gernot Hassenpflug

06-21-2009, 07:13 PM

Beware any government that says you can only have one gun for self-defence! It's only a matter of time before they come to collect them all.... and you find out what you supposedly "own" has only been on "loan" from the government.

gdandscompserv

06-21-2009, 08:51 PM

the raw reliability, ease of use, and shear man stopping power.
Don,
I'm considering one of these;
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm
Got any experience with one?

Walter Martindale

06-22-2009, 02:28 AM

My God... isn't one enough?

Sure.. One 1911A1; One CZ85; One GSP; One TOZ35; One SW422; One 6.5x55 Swede; One .308; One .223; One 12 ga; One 10-22; One BSA International; Oh wait. Another .308; Another .223; Another .22;
One katana;
Recently sold: One WinMod70 30-06; One .54 muzzle loader; One hunting bow; One Garand; one Mini-14; One - oh heck. I've forgo.. oh One SKS; Another .308; A couple more .22s; one 30-30; one .410; one 12 ga; One more 12 ga; one .22winmag;

One friend of mine was a "gun a month" guy for about 5 years. And we're Canadians....
Walter

Oh. yes. Being from Canada and now living in NZ, neither place allows either concealed or open carry of weapons...
Only the bad guys go armed.

Hogan

06-22-2009, 06:27 AM

Don,
I'm considering one of these;
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm
Got any experience with one?

Recently, there was a news story of a druggist in OK that is being charged with murder because he, after the initial burst of gunfire during a robbery, went back to the kid who attempted to rob him & shot him multiple times with a pistol while he laid on the floor, unconscious. In the initial shooting, however, he used one of these guns to defend himself. The kid who was shot was at the other end of the store from the druggist as the druggist did the firing. The shell from 'Da Judge' hit the kid in the head, not fully or head-on, but sort of partially on the side. The shot deflected off the kids head & knocked him out. The medical examiner said it was a wound the kid would have survived & recovered fully from. So, it appears 'Da Judge', while being a good close-quartered weapon, may not be so good for shooting at a distance.

But this video is fun, from the Taurus website:
http://www.taurususa.com/video-taurus-judge.cfm

DonMagee

06-22-2009, 06:31 AM

Don,
I'm considering one of these;
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-Judge.htm
Got any experience with one?

Everyone I know keeps talking about how cool that thing is, but nobody I know owns one.

It looks really cool. Taurus builds quality revolvers (I don't care for their autos) so I'm sure it would work well.

It's not really my style, with such a small size the spread of a shotgun shell would not be good for engaging targets at a moderate distance which to me makes a actual shotgun or .357 revolver better for home defense. The shotgun being more controllable and accurate using shot and a .357 having less recoil and just as good of stopping power as the .45 colt. On the carry front I conceal, so this weapon is simply too large to conceal compared to other just as powerful .357 or even .44 snubs.

So I guess i'm saying for self defense, I wouldn't recommend 410 shot, and there are cheaper alternatives that are just as effective as .45 colt (.357 magnum comes to mind)

Wikipedia says there is a magnum version that can fire shotshells with 5 pellets instead of 3, which might be more effective.

gdandscompserv

06-22-2009, 02:58 PM

Everyone I know keeps talking about how cool that thing is, but nobody I know owns one.

It looks really cool. Taurus builds quality revolvers (I don't care for their autos) so I'm sure it would work well.

It's not really my style, with such a small size the spread of a shotgun shell would not be good for engaging targets at a moderate distance which to me makes a actual shotgun or .357 revolver better for home defense. The shotgun being more controllable and accurate using shot and a .357 having less recoil and just as good of stopping power as the .45 colt. On the carry front I conceal, so this weapon is simply too large to conceal compared to other just as powerful .357 or even .44 snubs.

So I guess i'm saying for self defense, I wouldn't recommend 410 shot, and there are cheaper alternatives that are just as effective as .45 colt (.357 magnum comes to mind)

Wikipedia says there is a magnum version that can fire shotshells with 5 pellets instead of 3, which might be more effective.
Thanks Don. Regarding the .410 shells; Can't you can get them in just about any size 'pellet?'

DonMagee

06-22-2009, 03:00 PM

Thanks Don. Regarding the .410 shells; Can't you can get them in just about any size 'pellet?'

Yea, it just depends what you are looking to kill. Of course if you are looking to just blind or annoy an attacker then your options widen a little.

If I was going to shoot a gun at someone, I'd want to make sure they are 100% down. I wouldn't want to shoot them, have them drop in pain, pull their gun and shoot me.

gdandscompserv

06-22-2009, 03:07 PM

Yea, it just depends what you are looking to kill. Of course if you are looking to just blind or annoy an attacker then your options widen a little.

If I was going to shoot a gun at someone, I'd want to make sure they are 100% down. I wouldn't want to shoot them, have them drop in pain, pull their gun and shoot me.
The Judge would give you a few more rounds to inflict 'pain' with, no?

DonMagee

06-22-2009, 09:26 PM

The Judge would give you a few more rounds to inflict 'pain' with, no?

Yea, you got 6, but for less space and size you could have 6 or 7 .357 magnums, 8-12 .40's, or maybe even a 6 shot snub 44 magnum. I was at the range tonight and the judge is about the size of my walther p99 which holds 13 .40 rounds.

I'm not saying it's useless by a long shot. A gun is a gun and the gun you have is better then the gun you don't. Given the choice of a 22 or nothing I'm going to take a 22. And anything can be lethal given the right training and the right person.

I was talking to some guys, and they said it would be useful for hiking in that you could use it to ward off animals such as wolves.

When it really comes down to it, it has to be comfortable to you and not me. If it feels good on your body, points well in your hand and you can hit what you want to hit when you want to hit it then it's perfect.

I know guys who tell me then would never carry a Walther PPS because it's "only" a 9mm and "only" holds 8 rounds. I feel just as safe carrying my PPS as I would if you strapped a Springfiled Armory XDM 45 on my side. This is because I'm comfortable with the weapon. It wears well, points well, and I'm a tack driver with it. On top of that, I've seen first hand what 124 grain federal hydra-shock does to a ham. If you live though a double tap of that you deserve to live.