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hapkidoike
06-02-2009, 09:27 PM
I am currently in the planning stages of a fairly long unsupported bicycle tour, which will probably start in April of 2010. I am torn on whether or not I ought to carry a weapon of some sort (tazer, mace type substance, or something similar, NOT a pistol given state laws vary greatly). If I were going with even one other person I would not even think about it, but given that I am going solo I kind of feel like it might be appropriate. I have also brought this up on bike touring forums and gotten some response, but you folks may also have information and opinions that are relevant given your experience as students of martial arts. Thanks in advance for any time you give this.
Peace,
Bettis.

ChrisHein
06-03-2009, 12:02 AM
It's a great idea to take a weapon, or two. You never know what kind of situation you'll end up in, and protecting yourself should always be a concern.

Pepper spray is great, and if you run into some angry dogs it will come in handy. Some form of club is also a great idea. It gives you range and is effective yet not necessarily lethal. You can carry many things that will serve this function and not be odd. Even a jo cut down to size would work nicely and not cause much concern. A good tactical folder is always a good tool to have as well.

A powerful flashlight can be a good friend as well. At night using it to blind an attacker may give you enough time to bike away safely. If you go with a large maglite that will serve as your club as well. What ever you decide to take, spend some time training with it, a tool you're not comfortable using is useless to you.

I personally would take the time to find out the CCW laws in the states you'll be going through. It might not be as hard as you think to take a pistol with you, and it just might save your life.

Best of luck to you, sounds like a fun adventure!!

Hogan
06-03-2009, 07:35 AM
...I personally would take the time to find out the CCW laws in the states you'll be going through. It might not be as hard as you think to take a pistol with you, and it just might save your life...

That's true - 48 of 50 states allow some sort of concealed carry. And depending on where he is biking, only a couple/few CCW permits may even allow him to carry where ever he is traveling, even if it is a whole bunch of states.

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2009, 07:47 AM
I knew someone who hiked across Africa carrying a bowie knife (ok, a BIG @$$ bowie knife) and a bull whip. He made it ok. I tthink he had a pretty good staff as well.

Personally, I wouldn't have had the guts to do what he did...even then, when things were quite a bit calmer than they are now.

Best,
Ron (good luck on the trip!)

Nick
06-03-2009, 08:51 AM
Pepper spray is a good alternative, especially for a biker, since you'll be concerned about the amount of weight you're carrying.

A friend of mine used to carry a gun. He stopped a few years ago, and when I asked him why he said "Two reasons. The first is that whatever weapon you carry you better be ready to use with absolutely no hesitation. The second is that with a weapon present, situations are more likely to escalate to the point where you'll have to use the weapon in the first place." Pepper spray/stun guns are fairly discreet and, more importantly from a legal perspective, nonlethal.

Good luck on your ride!
Nick

lbb
06-03-2009, 09:11 AM
I believe you may find that there are local restrictions on sprays and tasers as well.

Nick
06-03-2009, 09:27 AM
I believe you may find that there are local restrictions on sprays and tasers as well.

Possibly, yes... but they're still a nonlethal alternative to knives/batons/pistols, and, as my lawyer told me, "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

Ron Tisdale
06-03-2009, 09:54 AM
One of the conccerns with carrying a weapon that I've always had is the exteme amount of awareness and responsibility that goes along with it.

A teacher of mine was a competitive shooter, and has a CCW permit. Whenever he carried, he spoke of the need to be "on", in the sense that he had to protect the weapon from others as much as himself. If you are carrying a gun, you can't afford to let someone into a position where they can take if from you...any physical interaction has become life and death simply because of the presense of that gun.

It also means that you MUST be in control at absolutely every minute that you are armed. Any loss of control can put someone's life on the line.

These can actually be good things, and some might make the case that we should be like this at all times anyway (I may even agree with this sometimes). I dunno...personally I think I would find that draining if I was going armed all the time. But since I don't own a gun, I am not a good example in that regard.

Best,
Ron

ChrisHein
06-03-2009, 10:08 AM
as my lawyer told me, "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6."

This quote is speaking to the reasonable option of using deadly force, correct. Saying that it's better to defend yourself and go to trial then it is to die and have the pallbearers carry you. This is something often said by people in favor of the lethal force option.

I think it's a deeply personal question to ask yourself. If the answer is that you are going to use lethal force that is your choice. Hopefully it's a choice none of us will have to make.

One shouldn't rely on pepper spray alone however. It's effect varies greatly, and in windy conditions it can prove useless. If I could choose only 1 weapon (other then a firearm) in a biking type situation. I would choose a short club. It's use doesn't have to be lethal, It give you range over someone else using a short weapon like a knife. You can train very hard with the club meaning you'll be comfortable with it in a pressure situation. It's simple, effective, and raises little suspicion.

This is however hypothetical. He can carry several weapons, which would be my choice. Look into the laws, don't take anything that will get you in lots of trouble if you use it. Train with it, use your head, and all will be well.

James Davis
06-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Personally, I am more likely to carry a weapon when I'm not alone. Being a (kinda) skilled martial artist, my technique and my wits can get me out of some situations. It's when I'm with someone who can't fight and can't run as fast as I can that I have to look at protecting them too.

In my personal experience, attackers sought to overwhelm me with numbers; this was true with dogs and with people.

If you have a concealed carry permit, utilize it and be safer. Many states have a policy of reciprocity and will honor your permit. If you don't have a permit, then follow the laws of the land you're in.

My personal policy is to be as prepared as I can, though I doubt that any people will give you trouble in the light of day. I would, however, bet dollars to doughnuts that you will encounter at least one dog that has an irresponsible owner.:straightf

Best of luck to you. Have fun.

Mark Kruger
06-03-2009, 10:43 AM
I am currently in the planning stages of a fairly long unsupported bicycle tour, which will probably start in April of 2010. I am torn on whether or not I ought to carry a weapon of some sort (tazer, mace type substance, or something similar, NOT a pistol given state laws vary greatly). If I were going with even one other person I would not even think about it, but given that I am going solo I kind of feel like it might be appropriate. I have also brought this up on bike touring forums and gotten some response, but you folks may also have information and opinions that are relevant given your experience as students of martial arts. Thanks in advance for any time you give this.
Peace,
Bettis.

You are right, state laws vary. So, to provide meaningful opinions and information, we need to know which states you will be in.

In general:

Mace/pepper spray is good to carry because it allows you to deal with most situations with a minimum of force. In some jurisdictions pepper spray is considered less force than physical contact. One down side is that it only discourages the "less motivated". A serious assailant will ignore the discomfort and continue, or escalate, their attack. If this happens, you will at least be able to articulate why you had to use other forms of force. "He started yelling at me. I apologized and tried to leave, but he blocked my way. I felt threatened, so I pepper sprayed him and tried to get out. He tried to grab me and hit me so I..."

Tazers. Just like pepper spray they only stop the unmotivated. Unlike pepper spray, they are a contact distance weapon so the margin of error is smaller and they cost more. I'm not a big fan.

Flashlights. Most folks don't think of them as a weapon. This is good. Aside from the utilitarian uses of illumination, they are usually decent batons or yawara sticks. I carry a surefire flashlight in my pocket all the time.

Knives and guns. The discussion on their best use is worthy of it's own thread. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation out there being disseminated as the truth. There are lots of folks with agendas pushing their favorite techniques, equipment, or political attitudes.

On the subject of truth, avoid anecdotal evidence. Just because someone did something somewhere once doesn't mean that it is the wisest thing to do.

ninjaqutie
06-03-2009, 10:54 AM
I would definetely take a weapon of some sort. As others have mentioned, some states have have an agreement that their CCW license will work in eac others state. So, you may want to look into that. Other then that, mace and maybe something like a baton/escrima would be nice. The flashlight idea is actually a great one as well. You get two things out of one. And I have been blinded by flashlights in the past and it is actually quite painful when they are bright!

Keep in mind though that mace and tazers will not always work. Especially if the person is on drugs or drunk. I have seen videos with police officers constantly tazering someone and they keep on coming once they are able to get up.

Nick
06-03-2009, 11:01 AM
Failing that, a telescopic baton is compact and packs quite a punch if you want something a little tougher than pepper spray, but as it is essentially a steel pipe when expanded, ensure that, as Ron said, you are in control both of the weapon and yourself at all times.

Mark Kruger
06-03-2009, 11:16 AM
Expandable batons are illegal in several states. Again, we need to know where you plan on going before we can give you good advice.

Mike Sigman
06-03-2009, 03:54 PM
You can always carry a small bottle of ammonia and water in a plastic squirt-bottle. Even an emptied nasal-spray bottle is good and it's a good disguise. Ammonia in the eyes is usually a fairly good deterrent.

FWIW

Mike

Mark Kruger
06-03-2009, 06:10 PM
You can always carry a small bottle of ammonia and water in a plastic squirt-bottle. Even an emptied nasal-spray bottle is good and it's a good disguise. Ammonia in the eyes is usually a fairly good deterrent.

FWIW

Mike

Pepper spray is recognized in the law enforcement and legal circles as non-lethal. Aqueous ammonia...

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/protection/safework/cis/products/icsc/dtasht/_icsc02/icsc0215.htm

"Severe deep burns" of the eye. Perhaps not the best option out there.

Mike Sigman
06-03-2009, 07:55 PM
"Severe deep burns" of the eye. Perhaps not the best option out there.Depends on if I'm worried about him or worried about me. ;)

Mike

chuunen baka
06-04-2009, 04:19 AM
Might I intrude in what appears to be a USA-based thread to say how totally bizarre this appears to a European? Choosing a weapon for a bike trip? The mind boggles.

lbb
06-04-2009, 06:50 AM
Might I intrude in what appears to be a USA-based thread to say how totally bizarre this appears to a European? Choosing a weapon for a bike trip? The mind boggles.

Meh. Don't be so quick to assume that opinions break down on a "US vs. not" line here. There have been plenty of threads in the past from Europeans all about their need for "self-defense"; what does it matter if a weapon is involved or not? The real question is when and why are people perceiving threats, and how much that perception has to do with reality, and as far as I can tell that does not break down on "US vs. not" lines.

MM
06-04-2009, 07:52 AM
Might I intrude in what appears to be a USA-based thread to say how totally bizarre this appears to a European? Choosing a weapon for a bike trip? The mind boggles.

Hmmm ...

New age of rebellion and riot stalks Europe
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5563020.ece

Greek riots spark fear of Europe in flames
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5337633.ece

Riots in Eastern Europe as Crisis Bites
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2009/gb20090121_794144.htm

Riots scare Europe
France's immigrant rage could spill over
http://www.oxfordpress.com/hp/content/shared/news/world/stories/11/NATFRANCE1108a_5REP.html

Economic Crisis: Riots Across Europe
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/economic-crisis-riots-across-europe/

German trucker suspected of 19 murders in Europe
http://www.eubusiness.com/news_live/1174338001.47

Scotland has second highest murder rate in Europe
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/26/ukcrime.scotland

Homicide in the World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world.png
(Note that some European countries are worse than some US states)

Violent crime-infested . . . Europe
http://hillbillywhitetrash.blogspot.com/2006/12/violent-crime-infested-europe.html

Britain tops European crime league
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1541699/Britain-tops-European-crime-league.html
"Overall, nearly one third of EU citizens said they were afraid of burglary and did not feel safe on the streets."

Portugal: Violent Crime Increasing
http://www.worldtravelwatch.com/08/09/portugal-violent-crime-increasing.html

Ron Tisdale
06-04-2009, 08:53 AM
Heh, when I was in Germany I was more afraid of the police than the thugs. I got to see first hand how some were quick with their nightsticks. And that was in West Germany...don't even get me started on the old East Berlin cops, soldiers, etc.

You want real crime? Try South Africa today. Crime in Kenya wasn't a picnic either. I personally saved one idiot from getting stripped naked and cut with pangas (machettes). If you were lucky they just took your clothes and let you walk home naked.

It's a tough world out there...be safe!

Best,
Ron

Mark Kruger
06-04-2009, 09:51 AM
Might I intrude in what appears to be a USA-based thread to say how totally bizarre this appears to a European? Choosing a weapon for a bike trip? The mind boggles.

Why do you find it mind boggling?

I recently ran across this quote, I think it is quite valuable as an object lesson is risk management:
"But in all my experience, I have never been in any accident... of any sort worth speaking about. I have seen but one vessel in distress in all my years at sea. I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked nor was I ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort." -E.J. Smith, Captain, RMS Titanic

ChrisHein
06-04-2009, 09:58 AM
Being aware of a possible threat is always a good thing, and VERY "Aiki".

Trivializing others concerns is not part of being a good community member. Teaching and discussing safe practice's. Understanding the potential lethal nature of weapons. And not glorifying or demonizing a tool. Making sure that the user understands what, and why they would need to or not need to use a weapon is the best thing to do.

The US is very large. There are many arias of the US that one should not enter lightly. If you are not from these arias, you can not knowingly enter them.

Not to say that everyone is out to get you, simply that show up in the wrong part of town, wearing funny cloths, and riding an expensive machine, bad things can happen. Or being alone in a place where some one(s) may choose to take advantage of your vulnerability.

This aside from the many animals or other pitfalls one may encounter on a long trip.

Mike Sigman
06-04-2009, 09:59 AM
If you were lucky they just took your clothes and let you walk home naked.
Oh, c'mon, Ron.... you *enjoy* walking home naked. ;)

Mike

Mark Kruger
06-04-2009, 10:20 AM
Depends on if I'm worried about him or worried about me. ;)

Mike

Even if you are worried about yourself, aqueous ammonia would be a poor choice.

Not only do you have to worry about the physical altercation, you have to worry about the legal battle afterward. While providing similar immediate effects as pepper spray, aqueous ammonia would expose you to far more legal risk due to it's greater likelihood of causing long term damage. :hypno:

ninjaqutie
06-04-2009, 10:22 AM
Just remember that whatever weapon you choose to take, like the others have said, make sure you can use it. If you can't.... then don't take it. More often then not, situations like that end up with you being the one injured with your own weapon, which doesn't sound too fun to me.

Mike Sigman
06-04-2009, 10:28 AM
There are many arias of the US that one should not enter lightly. If you are not from these arias, you can not knowingly enter them. Heck, you can't even sing in some of them. :D (Sorry, Chris.... it's a weakness I have)

Mark, I take your point about the ammonia and it was just a suggestion. There are a number of liquids, most of which would be deemed actionable in a court case if someone wanted to sue. But that simply puts us back to the 12-men, 6-men part of the discussion. The idea of a liquid in a spray container was just my attempt at suggesting something light, feasible, and effective for someone travelling on a bicycle trip. Nothing more. ;)

Best.

Mike

Ron Tisdale
06-04-2009, 10:55 AM
Oh, c'mon, Ron.... you *enjoy* walking home naked. ;)

Mike

Well, um YEAH, but don't tell anyone *I* ever admitted that! :D
Best,
Ron ;)

ChrisHein
06-04-2009, 05:15 PM
Area. My poor spelling coupled with just having woke up makes for poor communication skills.

hapkidoike
06-05-2009, 12:17 AM
Guys, I did not expect so many responses, and I appreciate them all.

The main issue with carrying a weapon is indeed where I will be going. Most of the time I will be in the northern US (Washington, North Dakota, Minnesota, Montana, Wisconsin, . . . to Massachusetts) and then down the Atlantic coast to South Carolina. This is the plan at this point, but given that I am still 10 months out could conceivably change. I will be going into Canada at least once, and given that I will have to leave anything mildly dangerous south of the border. The Canucks can't have people protecting themselves. Anyway that is the proposed route, and like I said, it may change (and may change drastically) but that is where I am now.

I do think I will carry some kind of mace/pepper spray type substance. It will at least keep the dogs off, and I can mount it on my handlebars. The mag light makes some sense assuming that I was in camp, but I worry about finding a way to access it while I am on the bike (or off) and it is in my paniers. I like the idea of a tazer, but am not sold on the idea.

Any more advice is appreciated.

peace
Isaac Bettis

Mark Kruger
06-05-2009, 12:54 AM
Guys, I did not expect so many responses, and I appreciate them all.

The main issue with carrying a weapon is indeed where I will be going. Most of the time I will be in the northern US (Washington, North Dakota, Minnesota, Montana, Wisconsin, . . . to Massachusetts) and then down the Atlantic coast to South Carolina. This is the plan at this point, but given that I am still 10 months out could conceivably change. I will be going into Canada at least once, and given that I will have to leave anything mildly dangerous south of the border. The Canucks can't have people protecting themselves. Anyway that is the proposed route, and like I said, it may change (and may change drastically) but that is where I am now.

I do think I will carry some kind of mace/pepper spray type substance. It will at least keep the dogs off, and I can mount it on my handlebars. The mag light makes some sense assuming that I was in camp, but I worry about finding a way to access it while I am on the bike (or off) and it is in my paniers. I like the idea of a tazer, but am not sold on the idea.

Any more advice is appreciated.

peace
Isaac Bettis

Right. Firearms are right out. The eastern seaboard is not very gun friendly and most states won't accept out of state concealed carry license.

Pepper spray is legal in all 50 states, but there are some restrictions. I assume that you are over 18. The active ingredient must be less than 2% for it to be legal in Michigan. Wisconsin requires that it be less than 2 oz. in volume. Massachusetts requires a permit for residents, but I assume that you aren't a resident. Canada... if it is labeled as "bear spray" it is legal.

Maglights and their smaller cousins are legal everywhere. Maglights make for a better baton, but you have to have it with you. This is the advantages of the smaller lights. A tool out of reach when you have to defend yourself is useless.

Tazers aren't legal for private citizen carry in several jurisdictions along your route of travel. For that reason, as well as the reasons I mentioned earlier, I wouldn't recommend them.

A plain folding knife like a spyderco delica or a benchmade mini griptillian is also another tool you can easily carry. It is very useful around camp as well. The pocket clip allows it to be in easy reach (clipped to a pants pocket or waistband). On the down side it is a _lethal_ force response. While disarming a small blade isn't as easy as popular opinion would have, some training will make it a much more useful defensive tool.

My advice: A small pepper spray canister that meets all of the requirements of the jurisdictions along your route of travel and a good flashlight.

Be sure to independently verify everything I, and everybody else, stated.

chuunen baka
06-05-2009, 04:35 AM
Hmmm ...

New age of rebellion and riot stalks Europe
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5563020.ece

Greek riots spark fear of Europe in flames
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5337633.ece

Riots in Eastern Europe as Crisis Bites
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jan2009/gb20090121_794144.htm

Riots scare Europe
France's immigrant rage could spill over
http://www.oxfordpress.com/hp/content/shared/news/world/stories/11/NATFRANCE1108a_5REP.html

Economic Crisis: Riots Across Europe
http://pakalert.wordpress.com/2009/05/03/economic-crisis-riots-across-europe/

German trucker suspected of 19 murders in Europe
http://www.eubusiness.com/news_live/1174338001.47

Scotland has second highest murder rate in Europe
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/26/ukcrime.scotland

Homicide in the World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world.png
(Note that some European countries are worse than some US states)

Violent crime-infested . . . Europe
http://hillbillywhitetrash.blogspot.com/2006/12/violent-crime-infested-europe.html

Britain tops European crime league
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1541699/Britain-tops-European-crime-league.html
"Overall, nearly one third of EU citizens said they were afraid of burglary and did not feel safe on the streets."

Portugal: Violent Crime Increasing
http://www.worldtravelwatch.com/08/09/portugal-violent-crime-increasing.html

Sorry but headlines about riots are really quite disingenuous. And public perception of the threat from crime always greatly exceeds, and rises faster than, the actual risk.

I wish I'd kept my mouth shut and just leave a bunch of aikidoka to discuss whether its better to shoot, club or spray an assailant. :rolleyes:

MM
06-05-2009, 05:05 AM
Right. Firearms are right out. The eastern seaboard is not very gun friendly and most states won't accept out of state concealed carry license.


One of the nicer sites to check concealed carry laws for all states in the U.S. is here:

http://www.usacarry.com/

They have an interactive map that lets you pick your home state of carry and the non-resident states that you have carry licenses in. Then it shows you all the states that you are legal to carry concealed. Nicely done.

Ron Tisdale
06-05-2009, 06:25 AM
Now THAT is worthy of a book mark.
Best,
Ron
One of the nicer sites to check concealed carry laws for all states in the U.S. is here:

http://www.usacarry.com/

They have an interactive map that lets you pick your home state of carry and the non-resident states that you have carry licenses in. Then it shows you all the states that you are legal to carry concealed. Nicely done.

Ron Tisdale
06-05-2009, 06:37 AM
Sorry but headlines about riots are really quite disingenuous.
Really, how so? If you were travelling by bike a couple years ago, through the suburbs of Paris, you might want to be aware that the young immigrant population was burning cars, looting, and creating general mahem. My fiance was worried about her mom, who lived south west of Paris at the time. She did not consider it a joke.

And public perception of the threat from crime always greatly exceeds, and rises faster than, the actual risk.

Quite so. I've seen more than one documentary that makes this point...local TV news often doesn't seem to have much to say, other than hyperinflated crime stories. Still, if you are a victim of said crime...

I wish I'd kept my mouth shut and just leave a bunch of aikidoka to discuss whether its better to shoot, club or spray an assailant. :rolleyes:

Nah, your perspective is as valuable as anyone else's.

BUT, please remember that we are speaking of someone travelling alone, for an extended period of time, on a bike (no fast getaways in the dark), camping outside, through many diverse areas. Personally, as much as I appreciate the self-defense applications possible from good aikido training, I would want to be armed in some fashion as well. And that is even with people usually finding another target when they see me.

When I go hiking or canoeing, I carry a staff and a rather large tanto. Not because I am afraid...I like and get along with most dogs and people. I do it because of the unpredictable nature of life, and the fact that I believe it is better to be prepared. I believe that is one point of my aikido training...be prepared. It is why my instructor insists that every test you bring all of the buki with you that you have ever tested with. If you bring your tanto and bokken but not your jo because the current test doesn't have jo on it, rest assured you will spend most of that test hearing kumi jo and jo kata being called. And when you don't remember that jo kata taught once six months ago...you will fail the test. :)

If that means that I, as an aikidoka, have to "[decide] whether its better to shoot, club or spray an assailant," at some particular point in time due to circumstances beyond my control...then so be it. :rolleyes: right back at ya. My life and the lives of my loved ones are worth it.

Best,
Ron

jss
06-05-2009, 07:25 AM
Might I intrude in what appears to be a USA-based thread to say how totally bizarre this appears to a European? Choosing a weapon for a bike trip? The mind boggles.
I think the difference here lies not estimating the amount of risk, but rather in the fact that Americans are more comfortable around weapons than Europeans. I mean, in the U.S. there's people discussing if an assault rifle is covered by the right to bear arms and in the U.K. there's people arguing in favour of a ban on long pointed kitchen knives. :D

James Davis
06-05-2009, 09:50 AM
It probably wouldn't be comfortable, but I would definitely look at wearing boots instead of sneakers. Dogs can be mean... and FAST!

MM
07-08-2009, 07:52 AM
Sorry but headlines about riots are really quite disingenuous. And public perception of the threat from crime always greatly exceeds, and rises faster than, the actual risk.

I wish I'd kept my mouth shut and just leave a bunch of aikidoka to discuss whether its better to shoot, club or spray an assailant. :rolleyes:

Hmm ... okay, how about this article?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Britain worse than the U.S. for violent crime.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/07/02/article-1196941-05900DF7000005DC-677_468x636.jpg

"The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609."

Now, read through the article. Headlines should always be suspect. :) Statistics can be used to show pretty much anything.

The moral is not to believe everything you read, whether you are in Europe or the U.S. Some areas (mostly cities) in both places can be dangerous. Some European cities have higher crime rates than some American cities and vice versa. Don't judge a country by the news media reports.

Mark

gdandscompserv
07-11-2009, 03:36 AM
How to shoot a handgun accurately.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html