Aikido in a street situation

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[Ruairidh]

hi im ruri ive never used aikido in a street fight although after a while of doing it i had fast reflexes so when a guy tried to hook me at school i blocked the punch but i froze afterwards because i didnt have the mind set to use aikido then. i (luckly) have never needed to use it since. what about you guys? just interested y'know.

[dps]

I had a guy at work grab me in a headlock to punch me in the face. I stepped back out under his arm and had a real good sankyo. Started to take him down and decided to let him go. After that he would never came within ten feet of me.

David

[Ruairidh]

I had a guy at work grab me in a headlock to punch me in the face. I stepped back out under his arm and had a real good sankyo. Started to take him down and decided to let him go. After that he would never came within ten feet of me.

David

good on ya m8. takes fast thinking to assess the situation and then assign a technique to it well done m8

[philippe willaume]

good on ya m8. takes fast thinking to assess the situation and then assign a technique to it well done m8

Well it all comes with dedicated trainning, regardless of the martial arts.
there is no quick fixes, in fact this is probably the hardest parts.

phil

[ruthmc]

hi im ruri ive never used aikido in a street fight although after a while of doing it i had fast reflexes so when a guy tried to hook me at school i blocked the punch but i froze afterwards because i didnt have the mind set to use aikido then. i (luckly) have never needed to use it since. what about you guys? just interested y'know.
Hi Ruaridh,

At school you may find yourself in trouble if you start throwing your fellow students around, even if it's in self defence ;)

Instead, work on your ability to get yourself off the line of attack and out of reach. Then you can encourage the attacker to over-reach himself, and stumble or fall, thereby making himself look like the clown he is :D

If anybody says anything, you can then say (with witnessess) "I never touched him" :cool:

The same applies outside of school, where a weapon is more likely to be used. You are much safer being out of the strike zone then staying in reach and trying to block the attack.

Talk to your Sensei about it as well - he can help you to practise for these situations :)

Ruth

[Ruairidh]

Hi Ruaridh,

At school you may find yourself in trouble if you start throwing your fellow students around, even if it's in self defence ;)

Instead, work on your ability to get yourself off the line of attack and out of reach. Then you can encourage the attacker to over-reach himself, and stumble or fall, thereby making himself look like the clown he is :D

If anybody says anything, you can then say (with witnessess) "I never touched him" :cool:

The same applies outside of school, where a weapon is more likely to be used. You are much safer being out of the strike zone then staying in reach and trying to block the attack.

Talk to your Sensei about it as well - he can help you to practise for these situations :)

Ruth

i would usually try. but my opponent always gets to riled up and throws a punch. im just worried i wont be able to use aikido im only yellow belt but i got my orange belt grading in 3 months. and i want to be able to have the mind state to use it when the need arrives

[ruthmc]

i would usually try. but my opponent always gets to riled up and throws a punch. im just worried i wont be able to use aikido im only yellow belt but i got my orange belt grading in 3 months. and i want to be able to have the mind state to use it when the need arrives
Ruaridh,

The most Aiki approach is to not get into the fight in the first place!

We don't go around looking for opponents, or get people 'riled up' so they turn to throwing a punch :disgust:

There WILL be consequences for getting into a fight at school, so please think of that!!

Aikido teaches us to get along with people so well that we don't need to get into fights :)

Ruth

[Phil Van Treese]

At work, I always have to have a smart *** come to me and ask me "what would you do if.........."? I always tell them come to class, step on the mat, and find out. Still no takers!!!! I give no "on-the-spot" lessons, unless they grab me. Then they won't want another one.

[Marie Noelle Fequiere]

Ah, you're only a yellow belt, you're still very young, like me. We haven't yet reached the level of "no sen" (no mind) that is like the nirvana for martial artists.
There is a guy training with us who in a Kyokushankai instructor. He told us that one day, while driving, he had a minor collision with another car. As they both climbed out of their cars, the other driver angrily charged him with a club. He's not so sure what happened next, but the poor chap flew past him so hard that he grabbed him to keep him from getting badly hurt. The guy stared at him opened mouthed for a second or two, then hurriedly climbed back in the safety of his car and drove off, all the while screaming obscenities.
As our friend started he own car, he wondered why he hadn't just punched the guy into a pulp, the way his previous instructors had trained him to do.
You and I will get there, I promise you.
Now, go train.;)

[erikmenzel]

he wondered why he hadn't just punched the guy into a pulp, the way his previous instructors had trained him to do.

Aah, but that one is easy. The other guy stormed him, would he have beaten him to pulp he would doing so near his own car...and that pulp can be so hard to wash away :D :eek:

[ruthmc]

Aah, but that one is easy. The other guy stormed him, would he have beaten him to pulp he would doing so near his own car...and that pulp can be so hard to wash away :D :eek:
ROTFL :D

[Jamie Barthelemy]

when i was a young kid, like 10 through 13. my friends and i would always fight with each other!
they would usually go for punches, kicks, and the oh-so-predictable headlocks. I found easier ways to save energy and ensure that i didn't get hurt in the process of taking them down.

in the next couple of years, I picked up an Aikido book in my schools library and had an AH HA! moment.

moral =

If you're honestly worried about your nerves and mindset... get a few friends to try and dogpile you, please be careful though! and don't let yourself get swept up in the moment and hurt anyone.

[Tim Gerrard]

Guys there's plenty of stories around this forum about some of the more 'senior' members' real life experiences. As for myself, I've never (well almost) got into a fight outside of work (Military Police); so if I've managed it, then I'm sure you can.

Don't look for it and it won't find you.

[lbb]

i would usually try. but my opponent always gets to riled up and throws a punch. im just worried i wont be able to use aikido im only yellow belt but i got my orange belt grading in 3 months. and i want to be able to have the mind state to use it when the need arrives

A few thoughts:

If you're already thinking about "when" the need arrives, be assured that it will.
If people are routinely starting fights with you at school, that's a problem that needs to be remedied with more than aikido.
At your current level of training, if you were to use aikido in a fight, I'd say there's an excellent chance that the best outcome would be that you hurt your opponent, possibly seriously. Are you ready to face the consequences of that? Are you confident that you could justify your use of force -- that you could convince parents, school authorities and the police that you had had no option but to use force in the degree that you did?

In summary, my advice is to keep your aikido to yourself in all ways, except when you're on the mat. Don't talk it up with people outside the dojo -- too many non-martial artists take any mention of martial arts training as some kind of challenge or confrontational statement, and if you do get in a fight, talk about training may come back to hurt you. Just keep it among the people who will get it.

[Linda Eskin]

Ahh... The joys of being female, and in one's late 40s. I can say I'm taking Aikido, and nobody takes it as any kind of challenge, or wants to go outside to see what I'm made of. LOL

I've never gotten into a fight. I was jumped once (long before having heard of Aikido), in junior high school, by a gang of 13 girls. The only good shot I got in was getting off the line of attack by dropping to the ground, unconscious, within seconds. A girl swinging at me failed to stop, and broke her hand punching the wall they'd had me backed up against. Yay me.

Women, I think, have to be more concerned about "being attacked" than "getting into fights." As for using Aikido on the street (and I do have to walk several blocks downtown, after dark, most days), I hope, as Ruth said, to use it to avoid trouble. Or at least to keep my head about me if trouble finds me.

[bulevardi]

moral =

If you're honestly worried about your nerves and mindset... get a few friends to try and dogpile you, please be careful though! and don't let yourself get swept up in the moment and hurt anyone.
Yeah, get yourself dogpiled by a few friends :)
Always a fun way of spending time with friends.

[Russell Davis]

Guys there's plenty of stories around this forum about some of the more 'senior' members' real life experiences. As for myself, I've never (well almost) got into a fight outside of work (Military Police); so if I've managed it, then I'm sure you can.

Don't look for it and it won't find you.

As an MP you will have the respect or fear of soldiers drunk or not, then there is your size which will also no doubt be a deterrent, and the confidence and training you get as an MP. a lot of us do not have those luxuries.
I do agree with what you say though, Ive had more fights than most have had hot dinners, in the long run it just made me a bullet magnet if you know what I mean.
RPD

[Chris Evans]

Well it all comes with dedicated training, regardless of the martial arts.
there is no quick fixes, in fact this is probably the hardest parts.

phil

dedicated training and fitness, no matter what

[Chris Evans]

i would usually try. but my opponent always gets to riled up and throws a punch. im just worried i wont be able to use aikido im only yellow belt but i got my orange belt grading in 3 months. and i want to be able to have the mind state to use it when the need arrives

unless you are already strong and fast (fit with contact conditioning from "street" or gym), no martial art will gets you prepared.

My guess is that something like three to ten plus years (or never, if your instruction and practice isn't "honest" and sustained enough) of training and fitness might get someone feeling prepared to respond to unarmed aggression and I'd imagine Aikido would take longer since a more forceful responses (reverse punch to face or side stomp kicks to knee, etc) are not considered.

Most often the Aikido (or Karate or Jujitsu or kickboxing) art works fine, but that yours may not.

[Chris Evans]

...haven't yet reached the level of "no sen" (no mind) ...

There is a guy training with us who in a Kyokushankai instructor. He told us that one day, while driving, he had a minor collision with another car. As they both climbed out of their cars, the other driver angrily charged him with a club. He's not so sure what happened next, but the poor chap flew past him so hard that he grabbed him to keep him from getting badly hurt. The guy stared at him opened mouthed for a second or two, then hurriedly climbed back in the safety of his car and drove off, all the while screaming obscenities.
As our friend started he own car, he wondered why he hadn't just punched the guy into a pulp, the way his previous instructors had trained him to do.
You and I will get there, I promise you.
Now, go train.;)

good point, thanks

[Alberto_Italiano]

hi im ruri ive never used aikido in a street fight although after a while of doing it i had fast reflexes so when a guy tried to hook me at school i blocked the punch but i froze afterwards because i didnt have the mind set to use aikido then. i (luckly) have never needed to use it since. what about you guys? just interested y'know.

I don't know if after 1 year you still read here, but for some reason i found this thread on top.

You stalled.
That's one of the most typical outcomes when a fight is ignited between two persons who are not used to fight (I don't fight, but I have a boxing background where, in the gym, we routinely punched each other seriously many many years ago).

It is generated by two factors: fear (oh yes!) and sudden realization that the protected (at times hyper-protected) setting of a gym invested you with a wealth of notions that seem to apply no more in a real situation. For instance, in a real street fight forget iriminage, unless you really see a stupid and obtuse bull charging you headlong, which I doubt!

However, I have seen also experienced boxeurs that stalled. Sort of: hit and watch.

But you should not hit and watch - hit and watch the (alleged) effect is the hallmark of the amateur. You must hit and hit.

I wrote that disagreeable (and questionable, I know) sentence ("hit and hit") not because I am enouraging you to fight (don't do it - the chances of ___permanent___ harm to yourself are enormous: you may get harmed, you may harm your opponent and have to face the legal consequences of it to say the least if not look your back for years to come, or you may harm _yourself_ by _yourself_ - the last being way more common that one may think!). But I said that ugly line because if you want to have a "street" situation in mind, you haven't to envision a guy who hits and watches you or who stalls like you, but set your standard higer: envision a guy who hits and hits and never stalls - that is, envision true danger, if you really want to talk of a _street_ situation: everybody can beat a drunkard and come home believeing his aikido is amazing.

If you want to have a chance of dealing with a determined opponent competently, you have to train for it. If you have a chance I suggest this: go on with aikido as your martial art but see if you can attend a boxing gym where you can spar. You need to be hit. You need to see a furious foe who keeps throwing blows at you and who is not intimidated by yours (provided you manage to land them).

Nothing educates you to be in a fight like being in one weekly, and the only way to do it safely is to find a gym where combat is allowed - normally boxing gyms are such, but you need to verify, for you have to pass medical tests first.

Your problem was a lack of experience.

[Hellis]

If you train in a dojo where most of your training is with very compliant ukie's, you may become too confident until that confidence is shattered by a guy in the street that doesn't know he has to comply with you and your technique.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

If you train in a dojo where most of your training is with very compliant ukie's, you may become too confident until that confidence is shattered by a guy in the street that doesn't know he has to comply with you and your technique.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

And here endeth the lesson..... amen! ;)

[Tim Ruijs]

If you train in a dojo where most of your training is with very compliant ukie's, you may become too confident until that confidence is shattered by a guy in the street that doesn't know he has to comply with you and your technique.

Minoru Mochizuki said. "Too much karate will make you aggressive, too much judo will make you passive, too much aikido will make you arrogant."

And here endeth the lesson..... amen! ;)

+1:)

You will eventually find what you are looking for...:D

[cguzik]

There is also the question of knowing when to act, which is something that is not really trained in a dojo setting. I mean, it's possible that you may find someone setting up to strike you such that you sense it and see it coming -- if you are training carefully in your dojo you should be honing your observational skills of what preparing to strike causes to happen in someone's posture and attitude. But more likely it will either be a sneak attack or an altercation that you are secondary to, and then have to make the decision whether to get involved or not.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

There is also the question of knowing when to act, which is something that is not really trained in a dojo setting. I mean, it's possible that you may find someone setting up to strike you such that you sense it and see it coming -- if you are training carefully in your dojo you should be honing your observational skills of what preparing to strike causes to happen in someone's posture and attitude. But more likely it will either be a sneak attack or an altercation that you are secondary to, and then have to make the decision whether to get involved or not.

No one's perfect..... Nothing beats a sucker punch.....!!!;) And here endeth the 2nd lesson.....

[mickeygelum]

No one's perfect..... Nothing beats a sucker punch.....!!!

Remember the Golden Rule,
" Do unto others , so they no longer are able to do unto you. "...and so endeth the third lesson :D

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Remember the Golden Rule,
" Do unto others , so they no longer are able to do unto you. "...and so endeth the third lesson :D

Ha ha! Who's coming up with the 4th !!? :D ;)

[Hellis]

As Kenshiro Abbe Sensei said when accosted by three muggers who demanded his wallet outside the Kings Cross dojo London...

" I am prepared to die for my wallet !! , are you ? "

So endeth the muggers :-)

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[mickeygelum]

As Kenshiro Abbe Sensei said when accosted by three muggers who demanded his wallet outside the Kings Cross dojo London...

" I am prepared to die for my wallet !! , are you ? "



That is not sound advice , as I have heard some say the same thing.
He was lucky he was in England, and not here in the states.;)

[Hellis]

That is not sound advice , as I have heard some say the same thing.
He was lucky he was in England, and not here in the states.;)

I would agree with you there. This was England and it was 50 years ago, even in England this was a different time.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

As Kenshiro Abbe Sensei said when accosted by three muggers who demanded his wallet outside the Kings Cross dojo London...

" I am prepared to die for my wallet !! , are you ? "

So endeth the muggers :-)

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Yes!! That takes commitment Henry.....:eek:

Me, I'd give 'em the wallet and then kick the shit out of them when I've dropped it on the deck..... Hypothetically ......Ha ha!! :rolleyes: ;)

[Hellis]

Hi Tony
When the would be muggers demanded his wallet, Abbe Sensei carefully took it from his inside pocket, dropped it at his feet before making his generous offer. It was a rare occasion for Sensei to leave the dojo on his own as we usually all caught the same tube train home.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Hi Tony
When the would be muggers demanded his wallet, Abbe Sensei carefully took it from his inside pocket, dropped it at his feet before making his generous offer. It was a rare occasion for Sensei to leave the dojo on his own as we usually all caught the same tube train home.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

I didn't know that Henry, but it seems the real fighting mind set does have it's common thought? :hypno: :) ;)

I had a similar situ in my cab one night, where they all (5) decided they weren't going to pay the fare and what they were going to do to me if they got out...... London style cabs have a locking system for the back doors :D ;) This made the hackles in my neck bulge as I thought 'ere we go again' took a deep breath and quietly said to them through the partition. "Look fella's there's five of you and one of me, I ain't going to be able to take all five of you, but rest assured one of you is going to die, which one is it gonna be? It went quiet for a few seconds and then they all broke out in laughter!! Here's me sitting there wondering what the joke was about......!!
Then one guy said "naaah mate were just kiddin' ya!! Carry on.... you'll get yer money". It stayed eerily quiet and subdued for the rest of the journey until I stopped to drop them of at a "rave" as they were known then. The mouthy one gave me the fare [U]and[U] a tip then said "Like yer bottle geezer" followed by the others saying yeh mate, good on yer!!
I can tell you now I was shaking like a leaf for about ten minutes after that with the adrenalin dump.....
Happy days!!

[ravenest]

Yes!! That takes commitment Henry.....:eek:

Me, I'd give 'em the wallet and then kick the shit out of them when I've dropped it on the deck..... Hypothetically ......Ha ha!! :rolleyes: ;)

What!!!??? No 'going out wallet'?

A friend of mine (a bit of a 'larriken' - to be charitible) comes up with his usuall; "Gottina fight again last night." (This guy can get in a fight in the middle of the roadway on the Sydney Harbour Bridge !) "A gang of little kids, too many of them, I felt my wallet going out the back pocket, one's head is in my face so I bit his ear, they soon bolted when a bit of blood appeared, they race across the road and go "ha ha, we got ya wallet."

"Thats a bummer." I said

"Nah, just my going out wallet."

???? Apparently a going out wallet is one with enough cash in it to get drunk, eat and get home and nothing else.:D

.... I know nothing of such things! - I have a reverse wallet, full of crap but no money!

[Samurai Momo]

I've never been in a fight since I punched Paul D. at age 6 for kicking my bicycle front tire repeatedly. I was sorry I even did that and rode home crying. As a neophyte of neophytes to the marvellous art of Aikido, I would have to agree with the wisdom on here that if you have to fight, you've already lost. That being said, there's nothing wrong with defending yourself, but it behooves you to do all you can to avoid that situation. Don't confuse pacifism with cowardice.

[ravenest]

I solved that dilema a couple of times with a stern confident look, and saying "I REFUSE to fight you, I DO NOT fight people. However, if you attack me, I WILL defend myself."

[Hellis]

I solved that dilema a couple of times with a stern confident look, and saying "I REFUSE to fight you, I DO NOT fight people. However, if you attack me, I WILL defend myself."

I am surprised that you find the time to have a polite conversation in a hostile situation ?

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I am surprised that you find the time to have a polite conversation in a hostile situation ?

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

AHa ha ha ha ha ha !!!!:D :hypno:

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Must be different people where you live cobber.....;)

If I said that to all the A*******s I've encountered in my 23 years as a cabbie I think would have been filled in more times than I would care to mention!!!

[Hellis]

Must be different people where you live cobber.....;)

If I said that to all the A*******s I've encountered in my 23 years as a cabbie I think would have been filled in more times than I would care to mention!!!

Tony

If you had said that to your assailants ? then you deserve to get filled in :D

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[Gordon Shaw]

It seems that training addresses the way men attack men primarily, leaving women to figure out how to use these skills many times in totally different situations. Has any study been done concerning attacks on women and whether Aikido adequately addresses them?

[mickeygelum]

It seems that training addresses the way men attack men primarily, leaving women to figure out how to use these skills many times in totally different situations. Has any study been done concerning attacks on women and whether Aikido adequately addresses them?


Domestic Violence, Abduction, Rape and Homocide , there is a gender-specific method to commit these crimes?

[Gordon Shaw]

Men punch and strike at each other. Women can find their attacker tearing at their clothes, possibly by someone they know. This person could already have their hands on them before it is known that they are under attack. If I was a street fighter one method I would try is to get the attacker's shirt pulled over their head tying up their arms. This is where this thought process is coming from.

[Janet Rosen]

Many attacks on women - and here I'm specifically addressing strangers on the street, NOT domestic violence or aquaintance rape - are essentially crimes of opportunity. In several situations over the years I saw the potential threat coming and was successful in using a combination of words and movement to completely call the other's bluff (this was all long before I ever took a martial arts class - I'm from Brooklyn :-) ).

Same approach stood me in good stead when doing street patrols or concert security as a young woman. Because nobody expects the small woman to have presence, there is a moment of absolute suprise/disruption when she uses voice or body to step forward and break up an altercation, and I learned to exploit that fully (its the same surprise/disruption a batterer expects to have on his side when he socks a woman in the face).

But the attack I have never had to deal with is the one that comes from the shadows, where there is no opportunity to call the attacker's bluff; its the grab prior to a strike, takedown or drag off - and that for me is the attack most practical for women to have to learn to deal with w/o freezing (and no, I don't mean a static one handed wrist grab)

I have read several accounts of women using aikido to fight off muggers - Cindy Hiyashi's published account of fighting off multiple attackers stands out in my mind.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

It seems that training addresses the way men attack men primarily, leaving women to figure out how to use these skills many times in totally different situations. Has any study been done concerning attacks on women and whether Aikido adequately addresses them?

I fink' you are 'avin a laugh mate, you want to see some of the states I have had to encounter on a Friday and Saturday night or any other night come to think of it.... :rolleyes:
They can be just as violent, if not worse than blokes when the alcohol hits the right spots.... believe it :crazy: :eek: :hypno: :rolleyes:

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony

If you had said that to your assailants ? then you deserve to get filled in :D

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Yes Henry dear.......:D

[mickeygelum]

If I was a street fighter one method I would try is to get the attacker's shirt pulled over their head tying up their arms. This is where this thought process is coming from.


@Gordon, It is obvious that you have no clue of street combat. Walter Mitty could have concocted a more realistic fantasy.
You most certainly will be the victim and not the prevailing combatant.

its the grab prior to a strike, takedown or drag off - and that for me is the attack most practical for women to have to learn to deal with w/o freezing (and no, I don't mean a static one handed wrist grab)



Very well said.;)

@Janet, I know plenty of females, small in stature and build, that are plenty capable of handing out a world of hurt in a surprise street situatiion. Confidence in skills and training, good trining, are the key.

Train well,
Train hard,
Train real,

Mickey

[Hellis]

Tony

I can see a book developing here on street defence strategy.

1 ) I solved that dilema a couple of times with a stern confident look, and saying "I REFUSE to fight you, I DO NOT fight people. However, if you attack me, I WILL defend myself." ( must engage opponent in conversation and a pint )

2 ) If I was a street fighter one method I would try is to get the attacker's shirt pulled over their head tying up their arms. This is where this thought process is coming from. ( must only fight opponent wearing a shirt )

3 ) Get behind your attacker and take him down ( when he is not looking of course )

4 ) It is the first duty of an Aikidoka in a confrontation to protect their attacker from harm ( if you are that good )

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Tony

I can see a book developing here on street defence strategy.

1 ) I solved that dilema a couple of times with a stern confident look, and saying "I REFUSE to fight you, I DO NOT fight people. However, if you attack me, I WILL defend myself." ( must engage opponent in conversation and a pint )

2 ) If I was a street fighter one method I would try is to get the attacker's shirt pulled over their head tying up their arms. This is where this thought process is coming from. ( must only fight opponent wearing a shirt )

3 ) Get behind your attacker and take him down ( when he is not looking of course )

4 ) It is the first duty of an Aikidoka in a confrontation to protect their attacker from harm ( if you are that good )

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/

Henry,
Can you remember a book written tongue in cheek about martial arts of the world, where there was a master of halitoses, which a master was able to knock out people by his/her bad breath alone....:yuck: :crazy: ? :D
There were/was other ridiculous things in it but a lot of people actually believed it as being kosher and it was really such a good wind up!!:D
I'm just thinking if these people passed this on as real, it's no wonder that people say such daft bloody things as they do today!! :crazy:

I reckon we should collect all the daft, ribbon twirling, ki nonsense things said in this and other forums and publish it as "Learn the mysteries of the martial arts world and how you will become invincible".... I reckon it would be a best seller...... :D ;)

I remember one class when some "Ki " nut said to me "Sensei, what would you do if you were in a bar and someone hit you on the back of the head with a bottle?"
I replied "Probably fall down off my stool unconscious with a stupid grin on my face"
He didn't come back anymore......

Tony

[Michael Hackett]

I'm reminded of Murphy's First Law of Combat; "No plan survives the first shot." Based on a few years in the Marines and a few decades as a cop, I truly believe that if you are planning WHAT you will do in a fight, what you are truly planning is how to lose.

[Janet Rosen]

I remember one class when some "Ki " nut said to me "Sensei, what would you do if you were in a bar and someone hit you on the back of the head with a bottle?"
I replied "Probably fall down off my stool unconscious with a stupid grin on my face"
He didn't come back anymore

:)

[Hellis]

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
I remember one class when some "Ki " nut said to me "Sensei, what would you do if you were in a bar and someone hit you on the back of the head with a bottle?"
I replied "Probably fall down off my stool unconscious with a stupid grin on my face"
He didn't come back anymore

Did you send that idiot to my dojo ? I had a guy ask the very same question, word for word.........

When he asked what I would do if I was hit on the back of the head with a bottle ? I replied ""fall down ""......

Henry Ellis
http://nakazono-aikido.blogspot.com/

[Tony Wagstaffe]

Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
I remember one class when some "Ki " nut said to me "Sensei, what would you do if you were in a bar and someone hit you on the back of the head with a bottle?"
I replied "Probably fall down off my stool unconscious with a stupid grin on my face"
He didn't come back anymore

Did you send that idiot to my dojo ? I had a guy ask the very same question, word for word.........

When he asked what I would do if I was hit on the back of the head with a bottle ? I replied ""fall down ""......

Henry Ellis
http://nakazono-aikido.blogspot.com/

No I didn't Henry ...... Honest!!!!! :eek:

Maybe its what daft people ask, they seem to think that if they don't meet some martial arts teacher with incredible powers they are not worth listening to......

I should have said "I would bounce it off my head with my incredible martial art kinki ki powers, or " I would "see" with my ki eyes and avoided it, looked at him with my piercing ki eyes to frighten him!!"
"They would run away in fear of my amazing powers!!"
:D ;) :cool:

[Tony Wagstaffe]

I'm reminded of Murphy's First Law of Combat; "No plan survives the first shot." Based on a few years in the Marines and a few decades as a cop, I truly believe that if you are planning WHAT you will do in a fight, what you are truly planning is how to lose.

Second that!!;)

[jurasketu]

Many years ago, an experienced barroom brawler once told me...

Always order beer in a glass mug and always hold by the handle.

When trouble occurs...

1. Throw beer into face of troublemaker.
2. Punch blinded troublemaker in face with mug. Straight punches regarded as best in case mug breaks to avoid getting cut. (Bottles or glasses without handles can shatter such that wielder could easily get cut.)
3. If mug breaks, use the broken handle to slash troublemaker and/or other unfriendlies if necessary.

The frightening bit - he was completely serious.

But I'm sure if you asked him what he would do if someone bashed him over the head with a bottle, he would say "Slump unconscious to floor and hope he doesn't get trampled in the ensuing melee".

[Michael Hackett]

The beer mug technique works and works well, but is usually considered felonious conduct and will probably get you locked up. That of course is entirely another issue only marginally related to the original discussion.

[Tony Wagstaffe]

The beer mug technique works and works well, but is usually considered felonious conduct and will probably get you locked up. That of course is entirely another issue only marginally related to the original discussion.

If ya don't get caught!!!!....;) :D

[Hellis]

The beer mug technique works and works well, but is usually considered felonious conduct and will probably get you locked up. That of course is entirely another issue only marginally related to the original discussion.

This week in the UK beer has gone up to £3 ($5) a pint, so you can't afford to throw it around, drink the beer first...

Henry Ellis
http://nakazono-aikido.blogspot.com/

[Michael Hackett]

If ya don't get caught!!!!....;) :D

Well, duh!

[Tony Wagstaffe]

This week in the UK beer has gone up to £3 ($5) a pint, so you can't afford to throw it around, drink the beer first...

Henry Ellis
http://nakazono-aikido.blogspot.com/

Haaa Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!:D

You wouldn't get matelots doing that!!! Bloody sacrilege !!! :eek: :disgust: evileyes

We'de be trying to catch it with another beer mug!!!!!
Or worst still licking it off the deck and spitting out the crap from it afterwards...... :D

[jurasketu]

Haaa Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!:D

You wouldn't get matelots doing that!!! Bloody sacrilege !!! :eek: :disgust: evileyes

We'de be trying to catch it with another beer mug!!!!!
Or worst still licking it off the deck and spitting out the crap from it afterwards...... :D

ROFL

[genin]

There's a dramatic increase in the level of violence, from first tossing a cool liquid into the person's face, to next beating them with a sharp jagged object.

[Peter Savill]

Best aikido in street scenario - assess the direction of incoming threat and run in the opposite direction as fast as possible.....:D

[Commander13CnC3]

I recently have been "threatened" to a fight that I am not quite sure what it's about.
I don't feel like risking court and the ridiculousness that follows after a beating -
but as one of the earlier post mentioned, if you're stuck in a fight, let them do the work, step away, and watch them look ridiculous. ;)

[Phil Van Treese]

I have been jumped a couple of times. Best 2 randori sessions I've had in a long time. Their ukemi wasn't too good but they were thrown properly.

[Commander13CnC3]

It always bothers me when people say Aikido is very ineffective in any fight.
Training in the dojo, I feel like all of the techniques could be applied properly.

[genin]

It always bothers me when people say Aikido is very ineffective in any fight.
Training in the dojo, I feel like all of the techniques could be applied properly.

When someone jumps on you and yanks you to the ground before you even know it, then how will your aikido help you then?

[Eric Joyce]

When someone jumps on you and yanks you to the ground before you even know it, then how will your aikido help you then?

Or any other art for that matter. What answer are you looking for specifically Roger? I'm trying to understand where you are going with this.

[genin]

Or any other art for that matter. What answer are you looking for specifically Roger? I'm trying to understand where you are going with this.

I'm not looking for an answer. I was merely trying to point out how aikido could be combat ineffective in certain scenarios. Because there are other martial arts like Jujitsu, and self-defense systems like Krav Maga that are specifically designed to counter these types of attacks/situations.

[Eric Joyce]

I'm not looking for an answer. I was merely trying to point out how aikido could be combat ineffective in certain scenarios. Because there are other martial arts like Jujitsu, and self-defense systems like Krav Maga that are specifically designed to counter these types of attacks/situations.

I see. I practice both jujutsu and Krav Maga and I feel that the training I have received may help me in those situations if they were ever to occur. I say may because nothing is 100%. The key to it is not the art itself, but the training methodology. By methodology, I mean things like scenario training, aggressiveness training, reaction drills and training under extreme stress and/or fatigue. If these elements are present in your art, then I think you have a methodology that addresses the concerns you stated. I'm sure there may be some aikido schools that train in this fashion.

[Michael Hackett]

Roger, under your scenario, aikido probably won't be much of an aid. If you are yanked to the ground (and don't instantly regain your feet) you probably are going to lose unless you are a competent grappler of some sort. There is no martial art that applies to every possible situation and scenario. Yoseikan budo is the most comprehensive art I've seen (and I haven't seen them all), but probably isn't much good in defending against firearms. From a self defense perspective, the best and finest art is the one you are willing to invest sweat equity in. A qi gong instructor I know says "Doing a little something is better than doing a whole lot of nothing."

[genin]

So you agree that aikido is not equiped to handle realistic combat situations, like grappling? That's the only point I was making. I mean it's a fine martial art, it's just that it wasn't developed for realistc combat situations. That's not to say you couldn't still use your Aikido skills and prevail in a street fight. It's just that it was really designed for the sloppy brawling aspects of street fighting.

[Michael Hackett]

No, that isn't what I'm saying. First, to be clear on terms, combat implies a military engagement to me, while what you are describing is a self-defense event. That said, the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program is somewhat based on aikido and Richard Heckler-Strozzi was instrumental in the program design. I currently train with a number of active duty Marines and they come to us as beginners who are very comfortable with basic technique and falling.

What I said and meant was that aikido would probably not be the best MA for the very narrow scenario you described, and secondly there is no perfect martial art for every scenario. Lastly I mentioned yoseikan budo as the most comprehensive art that I'm familiar with as it has striking, throwing, pins, weapons work and defense, and grappling as part of the formal curriculum. I doubt that it would work in every possible scenario either.

In a street situation you probably aren't going to face a skilled and trained martial artist. You will likely face a drunken lout or even an experienced street brawler. Aikido will work as well as most arts in those circumstances, better than some and not as well as others. It will not be perfect for every situation, any more than the katana was then or the firearm is today.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding there may have been.

[Cliff Judge]

When someone jumps on you and yanks you to the ground before you even know it, then how will your aikido help you then?

FWIW, Here is an interesting piece of semi-formal research on the whole "95% of fights go to the ground" thing. (http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/) I think I originally found this link somewhere on these forums.

The findings of this survey are that less than half of fights go to the ground, and when they do, the person who is on the ground first is usually the loser. I would therefore expect my Aikido to help out quite a bit if somebody tried to pull guard on me in a rules-free context.

[Eric Joyce]

Some additional information about fights going to the ground to supplement what Cliff posted.

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

This article is in regards to an LAPD study. To quote the author, short conclusion here: "The LAPD study does not show that "90% of fights go to the ground." Instead, the LAPD study shows that 95% of altercations took on one of five familiar patterns (with which any street cop will be intimately familiar). It also shows that of that 95%, 62% ended up with both the officer and the suspect grappling on the ground."

I apologize for the thread drift, but thought this article was an interesting read for those engaged in this thread.

[graham christian]

So you agree that aikido is not equiped to handle realistic combat situations, like grappling? That's the only point I was making. I mean it's a fine martial art, it's just that it wasn't developed for realistc combat situations. That's not to say you couldn't still use your Aikido skills and prevail in a street fight. It's just that it was really designed for the sloppy brawling aspects of street fighting.

How about this? Aikido is the best martial art for handling street situations.

Regards.G.

[genin]

FWIW, Here is an interesting piece of semi-formal research on the whole "95% of fights go to the ground" thing. (http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/) I think I originally found this link somewhere on these forums.


Interesting article. I wasn't implying that it is likely that your opponent will take you to the ground. I was just saying that if they did choose to take you down, especially if you weren't expecting it, then your aikido techniques will not be very useful in that particular situation (based on the techniques I am aware of). But still, 60%-90% of fights seem like they go to the ground based on the studies.

You could also argue that your Aikido knowledge might help prevent you from being in a fight in the first place, or at least put you in a favorable upright position once the conflict starts. There a lot of different sides to this.

[Michael Hackett]

The Leblanc article concerning the Dorsey study was interesting, but still somewhat misleading to a member of the public. Officers are trained specifically to take individuals to the ground in a use of force situation in order to control them for handcuffing. While the UOF reports show that the "fight" went to the ground, it really isn't in the context of grappling or Gracie Jujutsu, but rather a pinning technique. LAPD is the home of "The Koga Method" which is still being taught in their academy and in-service training. For those not familiar with Koga, Bob Koga is an aikidoka who first brought aikido to LAPD and continues to train LEOs all over the country. Here in California one will see the bar arm takedown frequently as it is taught to all officers by standards set by POST (California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training). That particular takedown technique would be recognized by any aikido practitioner as an Ikkyo, however crude it may be by comparison.

Some agencies are also including additional training in what I would term as groundfighting, with the Gracie GRAPLE (Gracie Resisting Attack Procedures for Law Enforcement) being one of the most popular courses.

While these two studies are moving in the right direction, they still don't capture the most salient issue to LEOs, that of officers being taken to the ground and using groundfighting techniques to defend themselves and overcome resistance. The data, so far at least, is simply not available for capture and analysis. For example, the LA Sheriff's Department has a comprehensive UOF reporting system that requires a supervisory level investigation of any force event that goes beyond a simple handcuffing. Those reports are reviewed by both the Internal Affairs Bureau and the Training Bureau, as well as the officer's chain of command. There is a data entry component to these reports, but the most information is found in a narrative portion of the report. The data entry information would show that the officer used "personal weapons" (hands, feet) if he entered into a BJJ scenario.

I think that the mythical 90% is correct in that virtually every struggle in police work does go to the ground in the sense that the officer forced the suspect down to pin him and handcuff him. While I've never conducted a study myself, my own anecdotal experience shows me that actually very few confrontations result in groundfighting/grappling/BJJ as most of us would know it. Regardless of what the actual percentage is, I remain convinced that having ground skills in addition to other defensive tactics would be valuable to LEOs anywhere. I have to admit to a bias here though in that I have trained in the GRAPLE program as well as Koga based Defensive Tactics and my son, a third generation cop, is also a Gracie BJJ instructor with his own school. To paraphrase "The Most Interesting Man in the World", I don't always end up on my back, but when I do, I prefer to have grappling training.

[genin]

LEOs take suspects to the ground to restrain them, but in a real fight, your opponent is taking you to the ground for a different reason--to hurt you. MMA fighters go to the ground when they are tired or if they think their grappling skills are superior to their opponents. If you are not in law enforcement, nor an MMA fighter, then you don't necessarily need to know how to use non-lethal grappling tactics in a ground situation. Simple moves like biting or eye-gouging would be just as effective. No rules in a real fight.

[grondahl]

Simple moves like biting or eye-gouging would be just as effective. No rules in a real fight.

In unlikely the event of being taken down by someone that have basic groundfighting skills it will really hard for you to use biting och eye gouging.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

If you are not in law enforcement, nor an MMA fighter, then you don't necessarily need to know how to use non-lethal grappling tactics in a ground situation. Simple moves like biting or eye-gouging would be just as effective. No rules in a real fight.
So you suggest to maim and seriously injure (easier said than done, btw) another person when you could have solved the situation in a less injurious way with grappling techniques.

[genin]

In unlikely the event of being taken down by someone that have basic groundfighting skills it will really hard for you to use biting och eye gouging.

At least that would be an option that is on the table. I've seen many MMA fights where they are on the ground and the person's arm or hand is right by the other guys face, but obviously they can't bite or poke at the eyes. But in a real fight you could if the opportunity arose. I agree that if you are mounted and getting pummeled with punches, then biting would probably not be effective at that point.

[graham christian]

Regarding policemen as being people in the front line on a daily basis may I say that I have trained with one for many years and taught one. Both report that Aikido itself has never let them down and both have over twenty years experience in all kinds of situations.

One funny situation Dave told me about a couple of years ago which he laughingly told me was kokyunage was this:

A guy approached him in his local in Watford and asked him if he wanted a big flat screen t.v. but he must decide quickly cos it's 'hot' Dave said 'I welcomed him, joined with him, led him to my van and had him put it in the back. once he was inside I locked the door and took him down to the nick.' (police station)

Aikido in action in a street/pub situation no?

Regards.G.

[Don Nordin]

Two untrained people fighting will likely result in a ground scuffle. My Dad was an experienced "club fighter" from the 60's and a brawler by anyones definition, he always told me the fight completely changes when you go to the ground. Try to avoid but it is going to happen. We do train in specific ground fighting techniques in our dojo and think it very valuable training for any Aikido player.

[Phil Van Treese]

Since aikido "doesn't work" in fighting or street situations, I wonder what I was using in Viet Nam to defend myself and what I used as a Deputy Sheriff when I took down more than my share of bad guys--in the jail scene and on the road. I could swear it was Aikido that Tomiki shihan taught me but since aikido doesn't work, I wonder what it was. Even when I went to the ground, more than once, I was quite effective with whatever it was I was using.

[Krystal Locke]

Roger, what is your experience with fighting? You mention a LOT of MMA events, but those carefully controlled events are not fights.

Seriously, if you absolutely HAVE to find out if your stuff, whether it is aikido, ninjutsu or knitting, will work in a fight, go get in a fight.

Bouncers dont fight, cops dont fight. Bouncers and cops finish fights between other people. Bouncers and cops control folks who need control. Not a fight, and that's a real good thing.

Nothing you know will work in a fight, everything you know can work in a fight. Fights are random, chaotic, emotion filled, terrifying, ginormous clusterfucks of comeplete unpredictability that are best completely avoided. Someone could get hurt.

Training (in anything) gives some advantages, but no art is universally effective or universally ineffectual.

[Krystal Locke]

Two untrained people fighting will likely result in a ground scuffle. My Dad was an experienced "club fighter" from the 60's and a brawler by anyones definition, he always told me the fight completely changes when you go to the ground. Try to avoid but it is going to happen. We do train in specific ground fighting techniques in our dojo and think it very valuable training for any Aikido player.

Fights end up on the ground a LOT. But fighters are not taking the fight to the ground intentionally. Fighting folks fall down, and they usually have as little of a clue about what to do on the ground as they have in the standup portion of their fight. A little ground skill goes a long way, I could use a bit more instruction in ground fighting.

I've noticed 3 stages in most of the fights I've witnessed and broken up. 3 Fs - Fussing, Fighting, and Fucking. Two are good points for intervention, from a fight-stopper's point of view. If the people are jawing back and forth, get in quick, separate them, calm them down and either bounce them or throw them back in if they calm down well and agree to behave. If they're already shoving or punching, wait a minute, you may get hurt intervening. They'll pretty quickly get to the last phase, clinched and rolling around on the ground like lovemonkeys. Much easier place to dogpile yourself and a few coworkers on them to get them separated, restrained and hauled the hell out.

[genin]

I'm not really into fighting. I used to watch MMA when I was younger, but I'm not that into it anymore. I wouldn't "fight" anyone even if I wanted to be violent. I would simply attack them. Preferably I'd hit them with a heavey or sharp object when they weren't expecting it.

Since aikido "doesn't work" in fighting or street situations, I wonder what I was using in Viet Nam to defend myself and what I used as a Deputy Sheriff when I took down more than my share of bad guys--in the jail scene and on the road. I could swear it was Aikido that Tomiki shihan taught me but since aikido doesn't work, I wonder what it was. Even when I went to the ground, more than once, I was quite effective with whatever it was I was using.

Specifically, what aikido move did you use to overcome an opponent once you were on the ground?

[Phil Van Treese]

Specifically, since Tomiki shihan included judo in his style, I used chokes---Koshi Jime and Hadaka Jime were my 2 favorites. I actually used an Irimi Nage a couple of times not to mention armbars. But since each scene/situation is different, each would require different techniques/moves. So what was good one time, would not be useful in the next situation.

[Gorgeous George]

Isn't the purpose of aikido training to stay on your feet when people grab you, and try to throw you/put you on the ground etc.?
I've certainly found in BJJ sparring that people - even the big and heavy, or big strong ones - have a lot of trouble getting me on the ground; just the other day, a man who must weigh fifteen stone was using all his might to wrestle me to the ground, and I performed a beautiful, textbook judo throw (it was like ashi guruma, but you put the ball of your foot on the ground, so the toes point to your other foot...also: I was there to do BJJ, not aikido, before you say); you give that kind of energy/opening to someone who's actually good at aikido, you'll end up on the floor, on your own.

And when I do practice BJJ (on the ground), I just try and do what I do in aikido (albeit while performing BJJ techniques): use the hips; stay relaxed; connect to your partner; use your whole body as one...
And after six weeks at BJJ, i've been told my top-game is equivalent to someone who's trained for six months; so I think adding a third location (tachi-waza; suwari-waza; - ne-waza) to put your aikido training to use, isn't that much of an ask - certainly when you're only concerned with 'street situations': i've sparred with plenty of beginners, who are big and strong, and really are fighting to 'win'.

[Chris Evans]

my novice view is that, if practiced with pressure & pain, without too much compliance for the advanced students, then aikido (and karate) can be effective training to prevent or survive violence, while keeping on you feet, esp. when out of 'bullets." I almost never ever carry 'bullets" (or knives, bats, etc). Also, some protection vs. gravity's a nice bonus, since I've had to deal with falls & crashes often as a mountain bike and racing coach. I attribute not breaking my neck or collar bone from daily air falls, rolls, and blending practices of hapkido.

I respect the BJJ, MMA, and kyokushin/enshin players using the term "fight" for sporting contests and I go along with that, merely out of respect. Even on ground grappling contests (all BJJ games start on feet, btw) , I can imagine the aikido benefits to help staying on your feet.

My years of hapkido, karate, and brief intro to aikido reveles that ineffectiveness arises from clinging to physically delusional, overly comfort driven prices. If you can find a dojo that balance realistic conditioning (impact and contact) and safety in order to train again next day then you're in a special place.

that cliche is true: it's more the indian, not the arrow.

[lbb]

My years of hapkido, karate, and brief intro to aikido reveles that ineffectiveness arises from clinging to physically delusional, overly comfort driven prices.

Absolutely. Like Dunkin Donuts. Their coffee is much, much cheaper than Thinking Cup, and so people cling to that comfort-driven price and kid themselves that it's decent coffee. Why the nerve of them.

(folks, it's really all being rehashed and it's all been said before, so maybe it's time to stop reviving this thread?)

[grondahl]

that cliche is true: it's more the indian, not the arrow.

http://www.krabat.se/shop/21634/art34/h8742/8128742-origpic-9d7c63.jpg

[Tim Gerrard]

Regarding policemen as being people in the front line on a daily basis may I say that I have trained with one for many years and taught one. Both report that Aikido itself has never let them down and both have over twenty years experience in all kinds of situations.
.

I agree, it has at times been messy, but it has never let me down either.
Although there is something to be said regarding 'it's the fighter, rather than the art' that matters. Some dan grade aikidokas I have trained with couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, whereas some people have natural talent without any sort of formal training.

[Chris Evans]

Absolutely. Like Dunkin Donuts. Their coffee is much, much cheaper than Thinking Cup, and so people cling to that comfort-driven price and kid themselves that it's decent coffee. Why the nerve of them.

(folks, it's really all being rehashed and it's all been said before, so maybe it's time to stop reviving this thread?)

agreed, with a chuckle, and with apologies for fanning this thread, although not everyone here's an aikiweb savvy reader who's heard it all before on this incessantly recurring and rightfully relevant topic.

[lbb]

Rightfully relevant my behind. Talking about "aikido in a street situation" is like asking "How long is a string?" What string are you talking about? What street are you talking about?

Lather, rinse, repeat. It will never change. Never, ever, ever.

[mathewjgano]

Rightfully relevant my behind. Talking about "aikido in a street situation" is like asking "How long is a string?" What string are you talking about? What street are you talking about?

Lather, rinse, repeat. It will never change. Never, ever, ever.

The more things stay the same, the more they change, but how does that make this irrelevant? "How long is a string?" isn't necessarily irrelevant; it's just nebulous. This might just be another example of The Thread Which Must Not Be Named, but the relevancy seems to depend on individual interests. In other words, it might not be relevant to you, but can still be perfectly relevant to others...can't it?

[hallsbayfisherman]

Relating to my experience,I have had many occasions where Aikido training has been very effective for me in the following ways:

1) the control,arrest and handcuffing of passive to moderate resisting suspects using many of the armlocks/takedowns and wrist controls that we learn.

2) the ability of knowing how to roll and breakfall as saved me from injury several times when i fell while in a footchase.

3)I have also found that the turning,spinning movements and shifting out of the line of attack as been quite useful in avoiding getting hit on occasions and the ability to confuse the assailant and get behind him/her much faster and easier and take control that way.

AND just as many other occasions while under full out assault where it was of little to no use to me.

That's my experience with Aikido and i am glad that i have trained in it ,as you can see it was quite useful to me.

Just remember the limitation of all the martial arts that are undertaken in a safe controlled gym/dojo enviromentf and no one martial art is going to be effective for every scenario that's why i have cross trained in BJJ and kickboxing and maintain good physical conditioning.

I can also say that,other than work related incidents,i have never been in a physical confrontation while of duty,so i would suggest train hard,train often and train long term mainly for the enjoyment of it and not get to focused or concerned about the "will it work if i get attacked" scenario.

Regards
WJ

[Chris Evans]

For street situations, BJJ and (kick)boxing, plus a lot of anaerobic fitness is all that one needs (to resolve an unavoidable contact): Never the less, they're somethings compelling about aikido, especially on how harmonious the practice is in facing old age.

How the venerable Aikido founder seems to be so alive and effective makes an impression.

When "push comes to shove" I have a haunch that strong aikido and a 45ACP pistol may be all that is really needed in close quarters, in a street, home, or in an airplane to resist "evil."

Of all the martial arts discussions that I have had over the decades ( and i've had way too many) the points of views of "practical" aikido-ka and MMA "fighters" have been the most interesting.

Any hour spent training in martial arts beats any hour spent on the Internet or on watching broadcast TV, usually, for what may work in real life.

P.S. just read the post by WJ above: outstanding. Thank you.

[genin]

When "push comes to shove" I have a haunch that strong aikido and a 45ACP pistol may be all that is really needed in close quarters, in a street, home, or in an airplane to resist "evil."

A gun will get you in trouble in your home, on an airplane, and especially in the street. If you don't get shot yourself, just add an extra 25 years to your sentence for using a firearm in commission of whatever felony the end up getting you on. While you wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, a knife may be a better choice for personal protection. Because at least you don't have to worry about incurring firearms violations, yet it can be just as deadly.

[Chris Evans]

A gun will get you in trouble in your home, on an airplane, and especially in the street. If you don't get shot yourself, just add an extra 25 years to your sentence for using a firearm in commission of whatever felony the end up getting you on. While you wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, a knife may be a better choice for personal protection. Because at least you don't have to worry about incurring firearms violations, yet it can be just as deadly.

RE: "A [pistol] will get you in trouble in [edited] an airplane, and especially in the street"
True on airplane, legally. On streets, well, depends on training and having a CCW Permit (in the USA). At home, assuming stored hidden and locked, a 45ACP pistol on trained hands can save lives, as verbally recommended by couple of Berkeley PD officers.

RE: knife
Well agreed.

in gassho.

[Michael Hackett]

When it comes to using weapons for self defense, there are any number of intangible concerns. Using a knife will have political implications with the police, the prosecution and a jury. Whether true or not, there is a view that a knife is the weapon of choice for thugs and street creeps and one using a knife will quite likely be viewed in that light. A knife is a very personal weapon and to actually incapitate or kill an attacker with a knife is almost an intimate action. How many folks actually have the ability to look their attacker in the eyes as the life drains from them? A firearm is an excellent self defense tool, but requires one to always be armed and in practice to be effective. Always being armed is a pain at best - ask your Berkeley cops about that. And by practice, just going to the range every few months and shooting a few rounds will not make an individual competent. That requires constant work and thousands of rounds fired.

From a more practical standpoint, it would be very wise to research the laws of your jurisdiction to determine the rules and limits to self defense. Generally you must be in imminent fear of death or great bodily injury before you may use deadly force. Your description of your imminent fear will be judged by a reasonable person standard and you could find yourself in deep legal trouble. And yes, I've heard the old saw about it being better to be tried by six than carried by twelve. That has a grain of truth to it - but you must be absolutely sure that you are in danger of being carried by twelve.

I am not adverse to being armed at all. I'm just suggesting that a person must be willing to put in the work and clearly understands the ramifications and consequences that are attached. Just be aware that the decision to use a weapon will forever alter your life and the lives of many, many others. For most people, a canister of pepper spray may be a much better choice. That doesn't always work, but then again, nothing does.

[lbb]

The more things stay the same, the more they change, but how does that make this irrelevant? "How long is a string?" isn't necessarily irrelevant; it's just nebulous. This might just be another example of The Thread Which Must Not Be Named, but the relevancy seems to depend on individual interests. In other words, it might not be relevant to you, but can still be perfectly relevant to others...can't it?

No, it really can't. To be relevant, by definition, it must relate to something, and the "something" hasn't been defined. That's what's wrong with this whole nonsense thread. If you fail to define your terms, it isn't a conversation, it's the Tower of Babel.

[Demetrio Cereijo]

As a starter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqTY9gS-pkw

[mathewjgano]

No, it really can't. To be relevant, by definition, it must relate to something, and the "something" hasn't been defined. That's what's wrong with this whole nonsense thread. If you fail to define your terms, it isn't a conversation, it's the Tower of Babel.

But doesn't that exist in most conversations to some degree? Most people don't set about a conversation with thoroughy defined terms. In particular, aren't all hypothetical topics like this? This doesn't mean the conversation is irrelevant, or that people can't still have commonality to their definitions. People make statements and other people ask questions to arrive at some relative degree of common definition.
When people talk about the street in the context of martial arts, some degee of definition is easy to arrive at. They're talking about effectiveness with attacks someone is likely to encounter when attacked. The problem comes when people don't ask questions to learn what definitions people have established in their minds...among other, more personality-based issues.
As far as I can tell, at any rate. Just because something isn't well-defined, doesn't make it necessarily useless, in my opinion.

[DonMagee]

A gun will get you in trouble in your home, on an airplane, and especially in the street. If you don't get shot yourself, just add an extra 25 years to your sentence for using a firearm in commission of whatever felony the end up getting you on. While you wouldn't want to bring a knife to a gun fight, a knife may be a better choice for personal protection. Because at least you don't have to worry about incurring firearms violations, yet it can be just as deadly.

That's why I love the state of Indiana. I carry a pistol with me daily. If I'm ever forced to use it the law is on my side.

In terms of fights going to the ground. I have a feeling that the popularity of MMA is going to cause most 'thugs' to start to adapt mock styles of MMA fighting. They see it as cool and powerful and will emulate it. I've seen this happen in my real life. I ran a small mma club at a college and we would get all kinds of 'street fighters' who wanted to train. They had watched TUF and emulated the lingo and style of what was seen there. While some were tough, all did not have real training, but none the less they still attempted double legs, chokes and armbars. Also, in this area wrestling is very popular. So many of this new breed of kid is all about using wrestling to sit on your chest and pound your face in.

The truth though is that I'm in my 30's now. They only fist fight I'm going to get into is on the mat. In 'real life' if it reaches that point I'm in fear for my life and several things have gone really wrong. And that is why I carry a firearm.

[genin]

That's why I love the state of Indiana. I carry a pistol with me daily. If I'm ever forced to use it the law is on my side.

In terms of fights going to the ground. I have a feeling that the popularity of MMA is going to cause most 'thugs' to start to adapt mock styles of MMA fighting. They see it as cool and powerful and will emulate it. I've seen this happen in my real life. I ran a small mma club at a college and we would get all kinds of 'street fighters' who wanted to train. They had watched TUF and emulated the lingo and style of what was seen there. While some were tough, all did not have real training, but none the less they still attempted double legs, chokes and armbars. Also, in this area wrestling is very popular. So many of this new breed of kid is all about using wrestling to sit on your chest and pound your face in.

The truth though is that I'm in my 30's now. They only fist fight I'm going to get into is on the mat. In 'real life' if it reaches that point I'm in fear for my life and several things have gone really wrong. And that is why I carry a firearm.

I suppose if you carry a gun you would likely never have to fight. You'd always be able to deter your opponent, or if that fails, shoot him dead. But say it's a drunk fan at a ballgame accosting you, and you either don't have your gun on you, or you don't want to risk accidentally hitting other fans with gunfire. Situations like that may require you to fight someone without a weapon of any sort. It's all hypothetical, but certainly possible.

[grondahl]

That's why I love the state of Indiana. I carry a pistol with me daily. If I'm ever forced to use it the law is on my side.


That´s why I love being scandinavian. Nobody carries a gun*.

*Organised crime exists of course, but they use their weapons on other gangs..


On a more serious side. Do you train to be able to use it during stress, practice shooting on moving targets, consider the 21 foot-rule etc?

[Dave de Vos]

That´s why I love being scandinavian. Nobody carries a gun*.

*Organised crime exists of course, but they use their weapons on other gangs...



+1
In my opnion, when you allow people to arm themselves, you effectively start an arms race within your society. Criminals need to arm themselves more to overcome armed citizens, police needs to arm themselves even more to overcome the more heavily armed criminals, etc, etc: an arms race.

When a policeman shoots in the Netherlands, it is news.

[akiy]

Hi folks,

Just wanted to step in here and request that the discussion in this thread to explicitly include the topic of aikido.

If you'd like to discuss issues regarding guns in a context outside of aikido, please do so in the Open Discussions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

[DonMagee]

I suppose if you carry a gun you would likely never have to fight. You'd always be able to deter your opponent, or if that fails, shoot him dead. But say it's a drunk fan at a ballgame accosting you, and you either don't have your gun on you, or you don't want to risk accidentally hitting other fans with gunfire. Situations like that may require you to fight someone without a weapon of any sort. It's all hypothetical, but certainly possible.

That's why I have trained in the wide range of unarmed skills that I have done (as rare as a no gun location is in my life). It is also why I nag on the need for everyone (aikidoka included) to train with a worst case situation style of training. Start on your back and learn to stand up when someone doesn't' want you to. Then learn how to do all that stuff that looks good in demos.

I'm actually trying to get back into an aikido gym right now after years of judo and bjj. It has nothing to do with self defense. it has everything to do however with just doing something different for a while and focusing on something I'm not very good at. (I'd must rather do something I suck at then something I'm good at).

As a side note, I train more often to use, control, and keep my pistol than I ever have at unarmed defense.

[LinTal]

I'm actually trying to get back into an aikido gym right now after years of judo and bjj. It has nothing to do with self defense. it has everything to do however with just doing something different for a while and focusing on something I'm not very good at. (I'd must rather do something I suck at then something I'm good at).



As another side note, have you given any thought to why you feel not as effective at aikido? I'd be very interested to get your perspective on the factors. Perhaps it's a conflict of philosophy?

[ryback]

Aikido techniques were developed in feudal Japan to be used in the battlefield, so in my opinion, there is no question whether it is effective or not in a street situation.Martial arts training is much more complex and deep than just "sreet effectiveness" but that doesn't mean that to defend yourself during a street attack is an easy task.One should avoid any kind of fighting situation if possible and if it's not, one should defend himself to the best of his abillities.But before all that should come the abillity to be aware of his suroundings and environment, a martial state of mind that can prove to be very helpfull in order to avoid a difficult situation, or react fast and effectivelly if he has to.People are getting increasingly "addicted" to walking with a pair of walkman headphones plugged in their ears, or "daydreaming",or being absent-minded e.t.c. So rule number one should be "pay attention, be aware" and Aikido teaches us how to do it and how to be aware of all eight directions. All we have to do is practice and then apply all our knowlegde in our daily lives...

[Eric Joyce]

Aikido techniques were developed in feudal Japan to be used in the battlefield, so in my opinion, there is no question whether it is effective or not in a street situation.

To my knowledge from what I have read and researched, jujutsu was the art used on the battlefield, not aikido. I hear aikidoka say this all the time and it drives me nuts. The art used on the battlefield before the 17th century had names like: kogusoku koshi no mawari, torite, yawara and kumiuchi which were supplemental to their main art like kenjutsu or other battlefield weapons during that time.

During the 17th century and beyond, the term jujutsu was used more. Words, terms and history matter. Let's not re-invent it. Nothing against aikido, but it is a modern creation with historical links to DR.

[Cliff Judge]

To my knowledge from what I have read and researched, jujutsu was the art used on the battlefield, not aikido. I hear aikidoka say this all the time and it drives me nuts. The art used on the battlefield before the 17th century had names like: kogusoku koshi no mawari, torite, yawara and kumiuchi which were supplemental to their main art like kenjutsu or other battlefield weapons during that time.

During the 17th century and beyond, the term jujutsu was used more. Words, terms and history matter. Let's not re-invent it. Nothing against aikido, but it is a modern creation with historical links to DR.

It looks to me like he said aikido techniques were developed on the battlefield, not aikido. I think you have to admit that he's got a point there - Aikido's core techniques have been around for quite awhile. Whether you can effectively apply these techniques in a street situation if you practice them within Aikido is a better argument to have.

[ryback]

It looks to me like he said aikido techniques were developed on the battlefield, not aikido. I think you have to admit that he's got a point there - Aikido's core techniques have been around for quite awhile. Whether you can effectively apply these techniques in a street situation if you practice them within Aikido is a better argument to have.

Thank you Cliff, that's what i said. Although Eric's post is historically accurate, the misunderstanding was, that what i actually said is that the techniques pre-existed the development of aikido, so we are agreed anyway. O'sensei himself learned them studying Daito-ryu aiki jutsu with Sokaku Takeda and the aiki principles and techniques were already a legacy of the Minamoto clan of which Takeda was a descendant.But that was more of an intro to my post than an historic reference because i didn't want to miss the point of the topic.There are different ways in which people train in aikido, if you study it in the practical direction (without missing the esoteric ellements, they are one and the same in my opinion) you can be more than effective in a street situation.The point that i wanted to make is that aikido, having its roots in the battlefield, teaches us many ways of how to be aware, avoid a fight or be fast and effective in our reaction than just techniques.The waza is of course the most important part, but one has to be aware of his surroundings and focused all the time in order to use it effectivelly when the time comes and he has no other choice in the street...Thank you both Cliff and Eric for reading my post and replying.:)

[Benjamin Mehner]

When "push comes to shove" I have a haunch that strong aikido and a 45ACP pistol may be all that is really needed in close quarters, in a street, home, or in an airplane to resist "evil."



One of my instructors (who is not only a 3rd dan Aikidoka, but a 5th dan Karateka) upon telling him that I was going to buy a gun told me "You need stopping power. You need a .45. You shoot some crazy guy or some guy on drugs, you might kill him but he might kill you before he dies if you shoot him with something less. You need a .45. It will drop any man."

His Aikido is pretty damn good, and I know his Karate is great, so I don't doubt him for a moment. I have always believed that in a world of guns some confrontations can only be solved by guns. Its not pretty, its not harmonious, but it is real.

[Cliff Judge]

One of my instructors (who is not only a 3rd dan Aikidoka, but a 5th dan Karateka) upon telling him that I was going to buy a gun told me "You need stopping power. You need a .45. You shoot some crazy guy or some guy on drugs, you might kill him but he might kill you before he dies if you shoot him with something less. You need a .45. It will drop any man."

His Aikido is pretty damn good, and I know his Karate is great, so I don't doubt him for a moment. I have always believed that in a world of guns some confrontations can only be solved by guns. Its not pretty, its not harmonious, but it is real.

It costs more to practice than with .40 or 9mm, though.

[genin]

Perhaps it's better said that in combat, having a weapon of any sort is preferable to relying solely on your Aikido skills. Clearly, firearms are good weapons. And .45's do the job as good as any, but it's probably not relevant to continue to bring up why a certain firearm is superior to other weapons...at least as it relates to this thread.

[danj]

My understanding from Australian statistics involving homicide is that guns overrepresent in the deaths of self (e.g. suicide), loved ones, family and friends as compared to 'the street'. Its an approach that lead to the restriction of availability in Australia and lowering over these cases.
Thus for the lay person (rather than professional) arts like Aikido, whilst less decisive and arguably empowering, are far less likely to lead to the sad stories you read in the newspaper.

dan

[DonMagee]

As another side note, have you given any thought to why you feel not as effective at aikido? I'd be very interested to get your perspective on the factors. Perhaps it's a conflict of philosophy?

Mostly because the techniques and movements I've been taught rely on fine motor control and perfectly timed movements.

Boxing, BJJ, and Judo are 'rougher' and more forgiving in their application. Screwing up a bjj technique or judo technique ends with you in the same defensive position you started in. Screwing up a aikido technique frequently gives up your protective position at best, and at worst ends up with you holding hands with a man while he punches you in the face. As such, being good at aikido in a 'street' sense is going to require a lot more work than being good at punching another man in the face while not getting punched. I do not have this skill level because i have not put in the time needed. I went off to work on arts with more "hands on" approach to learning.

Coming back now has nothing to do with trying to learn to defend myself. I think I have that as covered as I would care to be. It's more about challenging myself to learn something and testing my own limits of ability.

[Aikironin21]

A little background about myself. I trained in Kajukembo from around age eight or nine, till I was fourteen or so when I started playing football in highschool. I picked up Aikido, when I was nineteen and have been training ever since. My first two and half maybe three years in Aikido, I was hopeless!!! I started my career as a correctional officer within my third year of Aikido training, which was when Aikido started making sense to me physically. In the academy I sailed through arrest and control which was all Koga method.

I hit the line in the California Penal System in April of 97. I work at an institution with a medical and psych mission. along side general population inmates. Although a Level III institution we housed many Level IV overrides with pysch issues as well as Department of Mental Health program. Up to this point, everything I had learned in Aikido was theory! My second year on the job, I was assigned to one of the worst housing units in the institution. My Aikido education, was sent into overdrive. Where most Aikidoka hone their skills on compliant partners in the dojo, I was blessed to have the opportunities to apply what I was learning on people who were fully resisting, with back-up on the way just in case. These experiences changed my Aikido and how looked at training. Coming from a hard style background in Kajukenbo, I already had more aggressive tendencies in Aikido.

We have a saying in Corrections which is, "You can always go in strict and by the book, and relax over time, as you get to learn your inmates and they learn you." I went into Aikido hard, and learned to relax over time as well. Some of my best Aikido has been "sloppy" Aikido in real life situations. I think many of us fall in love with an ideal, that may prove to be impractical for our skill level or understanding. Seeking a technique, you become sold on it, and fight for it passing up other opportunities, in order to create the opening for your ideal.

Aikido flows.Concentrate on blending and entering of the line of attack. You can do this and maintain your guard to prevent from being hit. Nothing says, in the street, you have to keep your hands straight out in front, as in many youtube demonstrations. Get that initial entry and blend and see what is available. In my experience I have used ikyo, nikyo, sankyo, kote gaeshi, and sumi otoshi; on fully resisting people. I was surprised to realize, I wasn't rushing through techniques the way we sometimes do in class when we feel we are being realistic. In fact, I was moving very near the practice speed in class, even though the person I was applying the technique to, was moving much faster than any uke I ever trained with.

The next key, is to capture the elbow! Too many people I have trained with, practice to catch a punch or strike. Forget all that! Blend and entry take care of the strike for the most part. Make contact at the elbow, and you can quickly control center, and then adjust to the wrist or hand, after you have affected his center. Try for the wrist or hand before, and you end up in a fight over that wrist or hand. Affect uke's center first, and you have given yourself options, even beyond the techniques of Aikido. While uke is adjusting his center to regain control, you apply your technique to the appropriate wrist or hand.

Don't expect your attacker to react like a regular uke. There are two types of people in the world. Those that will back down to protect a wrist twisted to the brink, and those who will gnaw off their own arm just to knock you out. In the dojo, we practice to protect uke. In real life, you must be prepared to take that technique as far as is needed to gain compliance. If that means breaking or dislocating then that's what you do. You don't twist a little and see. You twist that thing down into the ground till he drops and/or something snaps. If you play with many techniques, with adrenaline mixed in, you may not have the momentum to finish the technique. Go with the flow of the moment, with no hesitation.

Take the stops out of your training! In class, when you make a mistake, don't just give yourself a face palm and then start over or back up to where you think you messed up. This has to do with some of the sensei too. There is always a viable technique present. If you made a mistake on the initial, continue the flow past it, till either it is present again, or take a different technique that is present. Too often we stop in our training to make adjustments. We are training stops into our technique. This results in the inevitable "freeze" when we are faced with actual resistance. We fix this by not stopping in our training and adding resistance into the equation.

Give yourself time. I feel my learning curve was accelerated, due to the opportunities of utilizing what I was learning frequently, on resisting individuals. Most dojo aren't going to allow full resistance, and you wouldn't want to injure a friend, practicing full speed. This means you will need to give yourself time to gradually build up the amount of resistance uke puts up against your technique. As a beginner there will no resistance as you are still literally learning to walk. In a few months, uke begins testing your extension and proper position. In a few years, uke can be actively trying to stop or counter your techniques. Add to this some more modern and realistic attacks, and you may see a difference in how you approach Aikido as a defense.

As you do this training you will see where your Aikido ability starts and ends. This is very grounding, in that, you aren't walking around thinking when someone attempts to strike you to the side of your head, you will do this beautiful shihonage, because you practiced it in class last week. If your sensei does not allow this type of training, try to find people in your class who are looking for the same type of experience. You may have to meet outside of the dojo for some extra practice on your own.

Lastly, once you have built some real tangible skills, you may find a need to redefine or learn the difference between a fight and self defense. In a fight you are basically doing two things. You are trying to not take on or minimize damage to yourself, while simultaneously trying to inflict and or maximize damage to your opponent. In self defense, you are merely trying to prevent injury to yourself. Now is fighting a means of self defense? Yes, of course. If you react to your attacker with overwhelming force then your odds of injury are reduced proportional to his inability to continue the attack. Most people sign on to this school of thought. In self defense, you only need to prevent injury to yourself. If this means you see a bully walking down the street, you take the next street, and have successfully defended yourself from his would be onslaught. Say you can't walk tot he next street and he is in your face. You could block, parry, and side step his attacks till he gets tired or bored, and again you successfully defended yourself.

That being said, you aren't going to use Aikido to fight by itself. You can successfully defend yourself to a point. That point has to do with your ability to apply and the constitution of your attacker. You may very well be able to blend and enter his attacks, avoiding injury. This may discourage him enough that he quits, but someone who is more devoted to hurting you, may need to take some damage before realizing you aren't the one today. This is why being familiar with effective striking techniques is beneficial. You may be able to break a wrist or dislocate a joint, but how long will that take to heal, compared to say a bloodied nose or blackened eye? In the end, which is more in line with Aiki principles; injuring a joint in which he may lose the use of for weeks or months, or a bloody nose that stops within the hour, or bruised cheek that doesn't otherwise hinder him, and is back to normal in a few days, maybe a couple of weeks?

[St Matt]

Excellent post Larry - thank you!!

[LinTal]

Great perspective Larry... lots of food for thought there.

[Chris Evans]

If you train in a dojo where most of your training is with very compliant ukie's, you may become too confident until that confidence is shattered by a guy in the street that doesn't know he has to comply with you and your technique.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

"...very compliant ukie's... & become too confident..." does not just apply to aikido. I know plenty karateka & taichichuan-folks like that: it's the nature of the business.

how long does it take for it to sink in that the aikido dojo one's in is too compliant & predictable?

p.s. i'm still working on 200 wrist pushups for warm up (and 30 minutes of hard atemi), Henrysensei...not even close yet.

[Chris Evans]

It costs more to practice than with .40 or 9mm, though.

That's very short sighted. Use the 9 or 40 if that's what you feel comfortable controlling, but, unless you have the training budget of USN SEALS or Deltas, better to focus on quality of practice.

Yes, unpredictable yet strong aikido and Colt 45 skills are wise (and fun) use of training time. Mr. Seagull was on to something here.

Some medical examiners have observed the effectiveness of a single accurate 45 vs multiple 9s.

[Hellis]

"...very compliant ukie's... & become too confident..." does not just apply to aikido. I know plenty karateka & taichichuan-folks like that: it's the nature of the business.

how long does it take for it to sink in that the aikido dojo one's in is too compliant & predictable?

p.s. i'm still working on 200 wrist pushups for warm up (and 30 minutes of hard atemi), Henrysensei...not even close yet.

200 - That is just the beginning :) push-ups on the back of the wrists with fingers pointing inwards - then try with fingers pointing outwards - when you start to feel a little confident try someone kneeling or sitting on your back - good for the wrists - fore-arms - mind.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com

[Chris Evans]

200 - That is just the beginning :) push-ups on the back of the wrists with fingers pointing inwards - then try with fingers pointing outwards - when you start to feel a little confident try someone kneeling or sitting on your back - good for the wrists - fore-arms - mind.

Henry Ellis
Co-author `Positive Aikido`
http://britishaikido.blogspot.com

Thanks. I've just purchased the "Positive Aikido" and have enjoyed your web site and news of Rik and Jay.

One of the insights I've had in a recent five-day Zen sesshin, during rest times in between nine zen meditation sits a day, was that I want to focus more on fitness and budo (and less time on surfing and mountain biking, and eliminate golfing) while also keeping it challenging for our son to strangle me out too easily, using BJJ sport rules (he's not an accomplished 'stand-up' 'fighter', yet).

Osu, with a bow.:)

[Riai Maori]

Hit or be hit, that is the question?

[john2054]

You also have to learn how to take a punch. And not rely on the 'authorities' in times of crisis!

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

Someone get Gandalf! The thread-necromancer has returned.

More seriously: I find the "on the streets" questions increasingly bizarre as time goes on. I think budo should remember the "bu" part of their name, but that's more a matter of the art's internal integrity than a need for combat techniques off the mat.

That said, if someone demanded that I explain how to use aikido techniques in a "real fight", I'd say the following.

(1) Grab a weapon. Any weapon. Any object. Congratulations: your striking power has likely just increased more dramatically than it would after several years of the most brutal muay thai training.
(2) Strike the person hard with your weapon.
(3) Repeat step 2 as needed. The main thing you need to be concerned about would be this imaginary adversary preventing you from continuing to repeat step 2, e.g. by grabbing your wrist. In such an eventuality, I would hope that the application of aikido technique is not completely unfathomable.

But yeah. I hesitate to even participate in such a discussion.

"Using aikido in a live-training, unscripted environment" is a discussion I'll readily have. "How to use aikido on the streets" is a question that I feel quite awkward engaging with.

See also:

Brett Kaywood: Self Defense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsN2sMM1qmA)

Yeah, actually, that's my main response.

[JP3]

So, after the below encounter, my wife is talking to her friend at the location where it took place and the friend says, "Really? Somebody picked a fight with John? Bet that didn't work out well, huh!"

Which sounds kind of cool, in a movie line sort of way, but the situation left a lot to be desired.

The Backstory:

Out with another couple, out to a friend's (same friend as above) bar/nightclub (Problem #1, neh?) to see a 80's & 90's cover band (yeah, yeah we're not 20). Hanging out witht my wife and her friend (not the bar owner, the one we came with), the pair of which ladies were dressed very well and looked great in that "Hey, I want to get to know You sort of way," euphemistically described (read, skin) (Problem #2). Band goes on, music is played, hands are raised, drinks are consumed (Problem #3).

Did I mention that drinks were consumed? Let me be clear on why this is unfortunate. Many beers were consumed by yours truly, who was having a good time, loving the tunes and the company, a great vibe. Bar owners have a predilection to share out free shots, anyone else have that same experience? (Problem #4) So, many multiple beers, several shots, etc.

The Complication:

A party bus from the other side of Houston (big city, nobody knows any of them) shows up at ~10 pm or so, the party bus has an arrangement with the bar owner for unlimited drinks for a flat fee, already paid (Problem #5). The ratio of guys to girls on that bus is about 18,000 to 1. Well... not quite that bad, but at least 4:1, guys:girls (Problem #6.

The Thickening, if you will:

More people we know show up, as it was "supposed" to be a reunion, sort of, of the party crowd from a decade ago, witht he ladies dressed tot he 9's (whatever that means), so now there is a crowd of hot-looking ladies standing around, which is no problem.... until one of the guys suggest a round of some shot or other and about 2/3 of the other guys go off to do that. I skip it, perhaps showing the nly wisdom of the evening.

Problem is, this left me basically alone in the presence of about 5 good-looking ladies.... no other guys around....

So here comes Random Drunk *EXPLETIVE* (We'll shorten that to RDMF) over, being really friendly, smiling, etc. He says, "Hey man, you're really lucky!"

Me: "What?" (It's loud, remember. Plus, I am definitely beyond the Texas intoxication limit for driving, let's just admit that, too)

RDMF: "Yeah, man... you're really lucky."

Me: "Oh! Sure, OK I guess. Thanks!"

RDMF: "No, I mean that you're really lucky to be standing over here with all these girls and my boys and I are trying to talk to them and they'e being bitches."

.... typically at this point, when non-blasted, I understand that we are already past Stage 1, Stage 2 and possibly Stage 3 of the "I'm trying to start a fight with you" ritual, but see above explanation regarding alcohol intake.
Me, reaching out a hand to reassure the guy by touching his shoulder (Problem #7): "No, dude.... all these girls are married. The blonde is my wife and..."

Predictably (for the sober - and anyone who has ever been a bar bouncer, like myself - but keep in mind... sober, which I'm not), RDMF reacts badly to being touched by a male he doesn't know and shoves my hand (the left one, important later) away, yelling, "Don't touch me *MF-er*!"

Me (remember, not sober, so not smart) turns more towards the guy to find out why the cool guy who thought I was lucky "did that weird thing with my hand..." and catch a short quick left to the face.

(Clarification necessary... Since I'm legally blind, I didn't see it at all, of course, but even if I Could see right, wasted = inability to see straight, right?)

But, this is where the 4 decades of training (trying to actually answer the original post's inquiry) reflex/muscle membory kicks in. Didn't realize I had done it until after, but my knocked aside L-hand had gotten back in the game and interposed itself in the retraction line of the RDMF's left, catching it at the wrist while my R-hand drove in to find RDMF's elbow, then pushing up, around, down in a tight little ugly ikkyo (oshi-tai-oshi for my Tomiki folks).

Floor, meet RDMF face, RDMF, meet floor.

About a two-second delay while drunken people close by process and sober bouncers at the edge of room start moving and...

People from both camps push in. I let go of RDMF (straight arm shoulder pin) ... well, I say let go, my buddy yanked me back so it's more like I was forced to let go, people interpose themselves going, "What's going on?!" "What happened?" "Whoa!" "Wow, that was fast!" Yadda-yadda-yadda....

Street situation, though not in a street, and somewhat typical for a typical drunkenly and quite disorderly event. Not a life-threat, sure, but it still DID work.

I'm not so sure it was very aiki in execution, however.

[PeterR]

Fun read - I have a very tough little (short but built like a tank) friend who works as a bouncer (the guy the doormen call when there is an issue) and he swears by oshitaoshi. On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective but it keeps popping up.

[JP3]

Peter, I think the reason that, as you said, "On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective" is probably linked to how we generally practice and work with it while dojo training, i.e. nicely and with physical respect with our training partner.

Not that we should not have respect for folks who are out to do us insult or injury, mind... you have to do so, both for your own conscience later on down the road as well as because "The Man is Watching."

When working with the higiwaza we have to keep things safe, and we stress to people that it it is very easy to hurt someone's elbow. I know that to be true, as I've been in class when someone over-torqued something and there was a sepration of the joint... thank goodness that: 1) it wasn't me; and 2) that it didn't fully dislocate, merely separated (if one can say merely in that regard) and no permanent damage was done. It did require about 3 weeks off the mat for the person to begin training. It's this knocking people off the mat that we are protecting ourselves against by not.... what's a good word... how about "insisting" on the technique's execution.

Let me tell you, when the alcohol is flowing, depressing the typical resistance to engaging in conflict, I have no problem with insisting. Ha! I'm really glad I didn't break the guy's arm, that's a bad look.

[PeterR]

Peter, I think the reason that, as you said, "On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective" is probably linked to how we generally practice and work with it while dojo training, i.e. nicely and with physical respect with our training partner.

Well there is that but I think my main issue is getting hold/control of the forearm in a less than controlled environment - its a tough thing to do. You managed to intercept the punch and went from there, my friend the rotweiler used to charge in and use his lack of height to advantage. So it does work and I certainly have more faith in it then shihonage (which always gets shown in street effective videos) but is an even bigger pain to pull off in a resistant and dynamic situation.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

Fun read - I have a very tough little (short but built like a tank) friend who works as a bouncer (the guy the doormen call when there is an issue) and he swears by oshitaoshi. On the face of it the technique does not seem to be very 'street' effective but it keeps popping up.Wait. Is oshitaoshi ikkajo/ikkyo? That always struck me as a fantastic technique. It's also front-and-center in my "weapons theory of aikido" research; you can find old European fighting manuals that show them doing it.

Even without weapons, it strikes me as a really good, solid technique. People obsess about nikkajo/nikkyo because, in the dojo, it looks really impressive and solid. And nikkajo is a great technique. But that "elbow through the ear"/"stretching out uke's side and shoulder" mechanic underlying ikkajo is so beautiful, and so strong. And the ability to counter resistance by angling into the ura version is so great. Such an elegant technique. I roll my eyes somewhat when MMAers call it "an armbar". Nothing wrong with armbars, but ikkajo is IMO a much more interesting technique than "isolate elbow joint and snap it".

I can't vouch for this quite first-hand, but FWIW, I heard that the Genyokan dojo in Ann Arbor taught an intensive self-defense course, despite Yoshokai normally being all about "aikido is derived from fighting techniques, but it is not a martial art for fighting." (The late Kushida-sensei often spoke quite sincerely on this topic (https://youtu.be/nEAFkvuBKTE?t=46).) As I heard it, they basically just did shomenuchi ikkajo really, really intensely. In Yoshokai, there's the basic takedown (step out, step in, step out), and then there's a "running steps" version (where you just run straight forward without the zig-zag", and then there's a "dropping steps" version where you pretty much just rotate the elbow and go straight down to the mat. Apparently, in this course, they did it somehow even more extremely than "dropping steps". It was just "smash eyes, ikkajo, DOWN."

I also remember a thread here on Aikiweb about how you'd teach "fighting aikido" (whatever that means) to someone in a limited timespan, e.g., 6 months. I think my favorite answer, certainly the most memorable answer I saw, was "4 months of extremely aggressive bokken work, followed by shomenuchi ikkyo".

Looking good on the Wikipedia article, BTW, PRehse. :)

[JP3]

Peter, let me be clear for the readers, I did not "intercept" that punch, my face did. It happens when you: a) can't see well so don't realize it is inbound; and b) when you have drank too much and so don't realize it is inbound. *snort*

What happened was that my left (generating this from the actual execution, which I do remember) had snagged the guy's L-hand, and I must have managed to get my hand around to the outer part of his wrist as my R-hand got to his arm, located the elbow and the technique fired.

But.... to say I intercepted the punch is a bit... ahh... inaccurate. Intercepted is such an... intentional word.

[PeterR]

Peter, let me be clear for the readers, I did not "intercept" that punch, my face did. It happens when you: a) can't see well so don't realize it is inbound; and b) when you have drank too much and so don't realize it is inbound. *snort*

What happened was that my left (generating this from the actual execution, which I do remember) had snagged the guy's L-hand, and I must have managed to get my hand around to the outer part of his wrist as my R-hand got to his arm, located the elbow and the technique fired.

But.... to say I intercepted the punch is a bit... ahh... inaccurate. Intercepted is such an... intentional word.

Like I said fun read.

Paul - like I also said I like the technique - it definitely has its own power - just getting into a position where it can be applied takes some doing.

[JP3]

Peter, as you said, "just getting into a position where it can be applied takes some doing." Well... we can say that abut just about any specific technique, can't we.... the "magic" if you will, lies in having a technique simply appear for you from the catalog, right in the position you happen to be with the uke/bad guy, right when the situation happens, eh?