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ChrisHein
05-23-2009, 12:15 PM
This is the discussion thread for the AikiWiki article "Henkawaza (http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Henkawaza)".

Please add comments below regarding the article.

Michael Varin
05-24-2009, 05:31 PM
Wow, Chris. What an interesting thread;)

I think the information in the entry is accurate but maybe not quite complete.

In my understanding henka waza represents all the gray area between the basic techniques. It could mean changing to another distinct and reconizable technique, but it can also mean any small variation that is required to make the technique work under the circumstances.

henka: change, variation, alteration

I think I recall hearing Saito say at a seminar that less than 1/3 of techniques will be the standard form; the rest will be henka.

That was probably somewhat of an arbitrary statement. In my experience 95% of techniques are henka.

NagaBaba
05-24-2009, 07:08 PM
The description in AikiWiki is wrong. Should be 'chained techniques' not 'varied technique'.....

Chicko Xerri
05-24-2009, 08:04 PM
The problem with the article, common with most articles concerning Aikido is that to many words are employed to try to explain. Aikido has only one technique and change is it. If Henkawaza truly means change then all is good.

Michael Varin
05-24-2009, 11:05 PM
The description in AikiWiki is wrong. Should be 'chained techniques' not 'varied technique'.....

There is no way "henka" can be translated as "chained."

ChrisHein
05-25-2009, 02:22 AM
I hit the wrong button when I was looking at the aikiwiki and thats how this thread got started. I think it's a good and interesting definition though.

Flintstone
05-25-2009, 03:16 AM
The description in AikiWiki is wrong. Should be 'chained techniques' not 'varied technique'.....
You surely mean "renzoku waza" instead...

NagaBaba
05-25-2009, 09:29 AM
There is no way "henka" can be translated as "chained."
As I don't know Japanese, I was not talking about translation but about the real meaning of this kind of training. Sorry for confusion.
I think that in this case it shouldn't be translated literally.

In this training you don't apply random techniques, but you follow the behavior of attacker.Every time he counters your technique, you must create a situation, that his counter leads to another technique that you apply. In fact, you create a small opening in your techniques to teach him to find it so he can counter, and you both learn new skills.

This way the techniques are 'chained' one after another in very logic way.

Demetrio Cereijo
05-25-2009, 03:31 PM
In this training you don't apply random techniques, but you follow the behavior of attacker.Every time he counters your technique, you must create a situation, that his counter leads to another technique that you apply. In fact, you create a small opening in your techniques to teach him to find it so he can counter, and you both learn new skills.

This way the techniques are 'chained' one after another in very logic way.

That's renraku waza (for me, of course).

ChrisHein
05-26-2009, 11:04 AM
I only know of renraku waza being used in Judo. Isn't the idea of renraku to apply a technique that you know your attacker will counter a certain way, so it sets up your next technique?

These things all sound close, and of corse you can use words to describe what ever you want (as long as others get your meaning). But it seems all of these have a slightly different meaning.

I learned henka waza to mean subtle variations in the same technique. Like Saito's different morote dori entries.

However the Aikiwiki definition of henka to me sounds like it means a technical flow from one failed technique to the next. Example:
I applied ikkyo, uke locked his arm straight, so I applied rokyo to his straight arm.

Then you've got renzoku waza, which I understand to be continuous technique. Not necessarily based on uke's response, but just as a part of what happens. Example:
I applied ikkyo, uke locked his arm straight, so I kicked him in the ribs.

Then you have renraku waza, which as I understand it is used like this. Example: I applied ikkyo, because I knew he would straighten his arm, that gave me the head start to apply a perfect rokyo.

Then one that has not yet mentioned is: Kaeshi waza. Example: I tried to apply ikkyo, uke locked his arm straight and threw me with kokyu nage.

As a general rule I use the word Kaeshi anytime uke is changing so nage has to adjust, but I'm starting to think there is a good reason for further clarification of terms...

philippe willaume
06-07-2009, 09:38 AM
I only know of renraku waza being used in Judo. Isn't the idea of renraku to apply a technique that you know your attacker will counter a certain way, so it sets up your next technique?

These things all sound close, and of corse you can use words to describe what ever you want (as long as others get your meaning). But it seems all of these have a slightly different meaning.

I learned henka waza to mean subtle variations in the same technique. Like Saito's different morote dori entries.

However the Aikiwiki definition of henka to me sounds like it means a technical flow from one failed technique to the next. Example:
I applied ikkyo, uke locked his arm straight, so I applied rokyo to his straight arm.

Then you've got renzoku waza, which I understand to be continuous technique. Not necessarily based on uke's response, but just as a part of what happens. Example:
I applied ikkyo, uke locked his arm straight, so I kicked him in the ribs.

Then you have renraku waza, which as I understand it is used like this. Example: I applied ikkyo, because I knew he would straighten his arm, that gave me the head start to apply a perfect rokyo.

Then one that has not yet mentioned is: Kaeshi waza. Example: I tried to apply ikkyo, uke locked his arm straight and threw me with kokyu nage.

As a general rule I use the word Kaeshi anytime uke is changing so nage has to adjust, but I'm starting to think there is a good reason for further clarification of terms...

I understood henka wasa to cover any change in the technique.
You change due to tactical consideration.
Ie you started ikkio, someone was coming so you straighten his arm and rokkyo him.

You change du to uke resistance
He straighten his arm to resist ikkio, hence rokkyo.
I think in includes the case where I expected the arm straitening or because I have awase and I felt the defence and adapted to it.

I have the same understanding of keishi wasa as Chris
phil

Flintstone
06-07-2009, 01:44 PM
I understood henka wasa to cover any change in the technique.
You change due to tactical consideration.
Ie you started ikkio, someone was coming so you straighten his arm and rokkyo him.

You change du to uke resistance
He straighten his arm to resist ikkio, hence rokkyo.
I think in includes the case where I expected the arm straitening or because I have awase and I felt the defence and adapted to it.

I have the same understanding of keishi wasa as Chris
phil
Well... I understand henka waza to cover any change in the technique that leads to the same technique being performed.

ChrisHein
06-07-2009, 02:23 PM
Well... I understand henka waza to cover any change in the technique that leads to the same technique being performed.

So for you, henka waza is: If applying ikkyo, and uke straightens his elbow, you make an adjustment bending uke's elbow, so you can again apply ikkyo?

Flintstone
06-07-2009, 05:32 PM
So for you, henka waza is: If applying ikkyo, and uke straightens his elbow, you make an adjustment bending uke's elbow, so you can again apply ikkyo?
Let's say that for me (and most probably I'm wrong) henka waza is if applying ikkyo and uke straightens his elbow, I make an adjustment to apply ikkyo with his arm straight. As an aside, I don't understand what's wrong with applying ikkyo to a straight elbow. As a henka (for others it may be the kihon) you can apply hiki otoshi to that straightened arm and it still will be ikkyo / ude osae. Even the final pin will be the same. It will just not be the robuse kind of ikkyo.

Or something...

philippe willaume
06-07-2009, 07:19 PM
Let's say that for me (and most probably I'm wrong) henka waza is if applying ikkyo and uke straightens his elbow, I make an adjustment to apply ikkyo with his arm straight. As an aside, I don't understand what's wrong with applying ikkyo to a straight elbow. As a henka (for others it may be the kihon) you can apply hiki otoshi to that straightened arm and it still will be ikkyo / ude osae. Even the final pin will be the same. It will just not be the robuse kind of ikkyo.

Or something...
No you are no necessarily wrong, it is just a matter of vocabulary and where one thinks ikkio stops and where ude or rokkio start.

For me ikkio is an arm lock that involve the arm and the shoulder in a double rotation, Ude a scissor action on the elbow.
Hence I see a change from ikkio to Ude.
Now if you see Ude as version of ikkio then no there is no change.

phil

Flintstone
06-08-2009, 03:44 AM
No you are no necessarily wrong, it is just a matter of vocabulary and where one thinks ikkio stops and where ude or rokkio start.

For me ikkio is an arm lock that involve the arm and the shoulder in a double rotation, Ude a scissor action on the elbow.
Hence I see a change from ikkio to Ude.
Now if you see Ude as version of ikkio then no there is no change.

phil
Sorry, maybe I didn't make my point clear. English is not my mother tongue after all ;)

No, I mean ikkyo, not rokkyo or ude kime osae. As per my "current" understanding, there is the way you describe to apply ikkyo, rotating the elbow and shoulder joints (what I should call robuse, meaning "rowing") and then there is a way with the arm straight, similar to that of Daito Ryu's ippon dori. I would call both of these two different ways of performing ikkyo... well... ikkyo. Both of them solicit the arm in the same way after all, I guess.

Hope I made my point clear now ;)

Demetrio Cereijo
06-08-2009, 04:38 AM
Chris, maybe you find useful this (http://www.taai.it/Saggi/Kihon%20Waza,%20Ki%20No%20Nagare%20Waza,%20Oyo%20Waza,%20Henka%20Waza,%20Kanre%8 5%20ENG.pdf) article by P Corallini.

Flintstone
06-08-2009, 04:50 AM
Chris, maybe you find useful this (http://www.taai.it/Saggi/Kihon%20Waza,%20Ki%20No%20Nagare%20Waza,%20Oyo%20Waza,%20Henka%20Waza,%20Kanre%8 5%20ENG.pdf) article by P Corallini.
Thank you Demetrio. It's a very useful document!

philippe willaume
06-08-2009, 08:15 AM
Chris, maybe you find useful this (http://www.taai.it/Saggi/Kihon%20Waza,%20Ki%20No%20Nagare%20Waza,%20Oyo%20Waza,%20Henka%20Waza,%20Kanre%8 5%20ENG.pdf) article by P Corallini.

cheers mate

ChrisHein
06-08-2009, 12:00 PM
Who would have thought that Demetrio would have a reference like that...;)

Nice little pdf. Kanren Waza, I've never heard that before. The way that Corallini Sensei describes Kanren Waza is the same basic way that the Aikiwiki describes Henka Waza.

So many teachers with so many different ideas, and interpretations. Eventually I guess we each will have to come up with our own definitions.

ChrisHein
06-08-2009, 12:15 PM
Just now while doing some poking around for info on Kanren Waza, I found this Yoshinkan clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvjwDE7rheA

I don't study Yoshinkan, but I would describe what they are doing as Kihon waza, and then a Kihon Kaeshiwaza. But clearly if you study Yoshinkan (at least at the school of these video makers) this is Kihon Dosa to Kanren Waza. Aikido varies so much from teacher to teacher.

Corallini Sensei, was in Iwama, with Saito Sensei (Sr.) at around the same time as my teacher. I've never heard the term Kanren Waza before. To my teacher it was apparently not an important term, yet to Corallini Sensei, it is a keystone Waza.

Take, Yoshinkan, Aikikai, Iwama, Tomiki, and Ki society, just to name a few. Each of these schools are dramatically different in teaching, technique and terminology.

Much difference this Aikido has...

grondahl
06-08-2009, 04:10 PM
In my experience, both Pat Hendricks and Ulf Evenås uses henka waza in a similar manner to Corallini, a change in how a technique is performed, not a change to a different technique. Ie nikkyo henka is still nikkyo, just a version that is not the basic one.

akiy
06-08-2009, 04:35 PM
Hi folks,

I just wanted to encourage people to edit and update the "Henkawaza (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/../wiki/Henkawaza)" article with what you feel are pertinent parts of your discussion. After all, this thread is the discussion for that article and the AikiWeb AikiWiki is founded upon the information that you, dear AikiWeb members, can share with others!

Thanks,

-- Jun

ChrisHein
06-08-2009, 05:46 PM
In my experience, both Pat Hendricks and Ulf Evenås uses henka waza in a similar manner to Corallini, a change in how a technique is performed, not a change to a different technique. Ie nikkyo henka is still nikkyo, just a version that is not the basic one.

That is also how I learned to use the term Henka Waza.

The problem is that I don't know if a definition update is needed for the Henka Waza definition in the AikiWiki. Maybe just some additional definitions. I think getting a "definitive" definition might be impossible.

Francesco Corallini
11-04-2009, 02:07 PM
Hi there,

I can just drop my knowledge about "henka waza" and "Kanren waza" terms how they are used in Iwama Aikido.

As a student of Saito Morihiro Sensei and of my father, that's what I can say about how these terms are used in Takemusu Aikido.

Henka Waza (as usually intended by Saito Morihiro Sensei when teaching seminars) means basically any variation from a basic form.

So for instance Kosa dori nikyo, when performed directly (chokusetsu) by fixing your opponent's hand on your wrist and applying immediately the key. This is intended as henka.
Usually "henka waza" is used to define a variation that Tori chooses to apply.

When Tori NEEDS to change his technique, so when he NEEDS to apply a variation in traditional Aikido we call it "oyo waza" (application of technique): that's actually the same way this term is used in other martial arts as well.

Example: When performing Nikkyo your opponents extends his arm you need to apply the key in a different way from the basic: but in this case the need to change comes from your opponent (thus in henka waza it depends on a tori's choice, usually)

Kanren waza concerns something completely different, which can't be confused with the concepts above: it means "combined techniques". That is actually the way Renraku waza were called in Ibaraki prefecture current dialect, as far as I know. And that's the term Morihiro Saito Sensei used to use to define combined techniques.

In this case it doesn't make a difference if tori combines different techniques because of uke's reaction (which forbids him to complete the initial technique) or because he chooses: in both situations they can be called "kanren" or "Renraku".

Sometimes Saito Morihiro Sensei used also "Kaeshi no kanren" to express a situation when tori starts a technique, uke reacts (with a kaeshi waza or by any other way), afterwards tori reacts to his reaction.

Hope my post was not too confused so far! :)

Cheers!

Francesco

sorokod
11-04-2009, 04:24 PM
That was great Francesco, thanks.

Francesco Corallini
11-05-2009, 07:12 AM
You're welcome David ;)

Ethan Weisgard
11-13-2009, 05:56 AM
Hello all!

I think people are mistaking the word " renraku" (meaning to contact someone) with "renzoku" which means "continuous."

Saito Sensei once said that the term "Renzoku Waza" was a term used in Hombu Dojo, where in Iwama the term was "kanren (connected) Waza". Although the terms were different, they both were used when speaking about moving from one technique into another in a flowing form.
Now there are two versions of this practice, one of which could also be termed "Henka Waza" in my opinion. This would be when for instance you do shihonage and before you control uke after the throw, he comes back on his feet. Here you could segue into kotegaeshi with a hand change. This could be termed Henka Waza because you are changing or adapting to a new set of circumstances.
The "Kanren Waza" form of this same sequence would be where you take the initiative and give uke the opening to stand up again (uke should always revert back to a natural standing position when not being controlled by nage, the way I see it). When leaving uke the opening to stand up you blend with this movement and move into kotegaeshi before he regains his position completely. You can connect many techniques in this way, by leaving an opening for uke and then continuing into the next technique. Sometimes Saito Sensei would go from ikkyo through to rokkyo as Kanren Waza," for instance - leading uke all the way through the changes.

I also understand Henka Waza as being what has been described in other posts: using a variation of a given technique when in a situation where the basic form proves difficult to execute. This would mean a variation of the same technique that is more natural to perform when for instance uke changes his posture, grip etc.

In aiki,

Ethan Weisgard

Ethan Weisgard
11-13-2009, 06:04 AM
Hello all again!

A little PS: I missed Francescos last post which also explains some of the things that I wrote about. And very nicely explained, too, I must add!

In aiki,

Ethan

Toby Threadgill
11-15-2009, 12:20 AM
Okay,

henka = variation

From the perspective of koryu where orthodox kata and henka waza are clearly defined, I cannot imagine the term henka waza being applicable to aikido. Why? Because there is no agreed upon "orthodox" version of any technique in the greater aikido community. Given that Ueshiba was altering/modifying the execution of his waza throughout his life, how would you determine what constituted a henka? Henka would be a variation compared to what or who's orthodoxy?

Many high ranking aikido instructors have discussed this topic with me thru the years. Greater aikido technique is so diverse that there is no possible criteria available to determine what constitutes henkawaza.

Respectfully,

Toby Threadgill / TSYR

sorokod
11-15-2009, 03:19 AM
Hello

As Francesco noted in post 25, in the context of Iwama Aikido, henka is a variation on a basic form. Basics in Iwama are quite well defined so there is no logical problem with discussing changes to those.

ChrisHein
11-15-2009, 11:02 AM
Hi there,

I can just drop my knowledge about "henka waza" and "Kanren waza" terms how they are used in Iwama Aikido.

As a student of Saito Morihiro Sensei and of my father, that's what I can say about how these terms are used in Takemusu Aikido.

Henka Waza (as usually intended by Saito Morihiro Sensei when teaching seminars) means basically any variation from a basic form.

So for instance Kosa dori nikyo, when performed directly (chokusetsu) by fixing your opponent's hand on your wrist and applying immediately the key. This is intended as henka.
Usually "henka waza" is used to define a variation that Tori chooses to apply.

When Tori NEEDS to change his technique, so when he NEEDS to apply a variation in traditional Aikido we call it "oyo waza" (application of technique): that's actually the same way this term is used in other martial arts as well.

Example: When performing Nikkyo your opponents extends his arm you need to apply the key in a different way from the basic: but in this case the need to change comes from your opponent (thus in henka waza it depends on a tori's choice, usually)

Kanren waza concerns something completely different, which can't be confused with the concepts above: it means "combined techniques". That is actually the way Renraku waza were called in Ibaraki prefecture current dialect, as far as I know. And that's the term Morihiro Saito Sensei used to use to define combined techniques.

In this case it doesn't make a difference if tori combines different techniques because of uke's reaction (which forbids him to complete the initial technique) or because he chooses: in both situations they can be called "kanren" or "Renraku".

Sometimes Saito Morihiro Sensei used also "Kaeshi no kanren" to express a situation when tori starts a technique, uke reacts (with a kaeshi waza or by any other way), afterwards tori reacts to his reaction.

Hope my post was not too confused so far! :)

Cheers!

Francesco

Wow! I missed this post when it was first posted. Great! Thank you so much for this clarification!

Also Toby Threadgill's overall perspective is quite interesting.

Thanks!

Walter Martindale
12-26-2009, 02:59 PM
After my Ikkyu test (2005) and again on other occasions, Kawahara sensei (Shihan in Canada) pointed out to me that all of Aikido is henka waza.

I'm not sure enough of my understanding of Aikido to offer more than that. Maybe in a few more years...
W