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Ketsan
04-09-2009, 09:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0

The Aikidoka only has one hand!

Ketsan
04-09-2009, 09:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME

Part two, apparently it went into an over time round.

Kevin Karr
04-09-2009, 02:49 PM
Huh, weird. I guess in "One-arm Aikido" they don't teach tenkan or any other manner of circular movement; they focus more on the "judo chop/face slap" and leg sweeps. Also, theirs seems to be more of a "stay on the line" approach, a kind of "go straight at 'em" style. Interesting.

DonMagee
04-09-2009, 02:54 PM
I'm not seeing much MMA or really for that matter much aikido. What I saw was two people from different martial arts having a slap fight with no no punches, halfway respectable kicks, or decent ground work of any kind.

My advice would be when fighting a one handed man with his hands at his waist is to actually punch him in the face. Something the other guy did not try once.

Similarly, on the ground with a one armed man it would be trivial to sweep him over that missing arm, he has no post or position to prevent this. You don't even need mma training for that, just physics.

I didn't make it halfway though the second video, so maybe it gets better.

Stephen Kotev
04-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Do you know where this came from and what were the rules? It's not really MMA rules. No gloves, no ropes or cage, no real closed fist strikes. Seems kinda strange. The 'mma guy' seemed almost timid at times. His knee strikes around 2:53 seem almost like taps. The "Aikido' guy did a lot of trips and some chokes and arm bars. Last time I checked that was not part of the standard curriculum (Yes, I know your school does it; but you won't find most of that stuff at Hombu Dojo.)

It's almost like old Pancrase (http://www.youtube.com/v/JBUJa7ndYL0) without the boots.

Churchill92
04-09-2009, 03:49 PM
2nd video had a few throws and an arm bar. Traditional MMA style stuff. The Aikido guy looked stiff and the chopping really didn't look like it was doing too much, you could see he was trying for a takedown to get into some hold as the usual UFC ground-n-pound is done.

I would've loved to see a MT vs. Aikido that would be interesting

Ketsan
04-09-2009, 04:31 PM
Do you know where this came from and what were the rules? It's not really MMA rules. No gloves, no ropes or cage, no real closed fist strikes. Seems kinda strange. The 'mma guy' seemed almost timid at times. His knee strikes around 2:53 seem almost like taps. The "Aikido' guy did a lot of trips and some chokes and arm bars. Last time I checked that was not part of the standard curriculum (Yes, I know your school does it; but you won't find most of that stuff at Hombu Dojo.)

It's almost like old Pancrase (http://www.youtube.com/v/JBUJa7ndYL0) without the boots.

I stumbled across it this morning so I don't know anything outside of what it says on the vid.

Ketsan
04-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Do you know where this came from and what were the rules? It's not really MMA rules. No gloves, no ropes or cage, no real closed fist strikes. Seems kinda strange. The 'mma guy' seemed almost timid at times. His knee strikes around 2:53 seem almost like taps. The "Aikido' guy did a lot of trips and some chokes and arm bars. Last time I checked that was not part of the standard curriculum (Yes, I know your school does it; but you won't find most of that stuff at Hombu Dojo.)

It's almost like old Pancrase (http://www.youtube.com/v/JBUJa7ndYL0) without the boots.

Knee strikes are normally done while stationary on a stationary target, I should imagine it's quite hard to walk and knee at the same time. In fact to my way of thinking the MMA guy, if he is, struggles with the fact that the Aikidoka refuses to stand still and be hit.

Ketsan
04-09-2009, 04:49 PM
Neither of them are wearing gloves, could explain the lack of punching, a lot of the slaps look like open handed jabs/crosses etc to me. Very linier slapping anyway! Either way the Aikidoka doesn't stand around to get hit! Although there are a couple of times when the Aikidoka gets a hand in the face and is pushed back.

There does appear to be some attempt at newaza but the Aikidoka seems to be able to handle it, is able to lock it down and escape and even manages (?) an arm bar.
Like the first time he ends up in his opponents guard at about 56 seconds and then just picks the guy up and bashes him off the mat. I've seen Aikidoka do this to Judoka so many times.

Or at 2:13 where it looks like the guy tries to shoot but the Aikidoka just shuffles back and absorbs it, almost sprawls infact. Eventually the Aikidoka goes down, but he counters with ukemi stabilises himself, rolls into kamae and stands up.
Or 0:22 in the second video where the Aikidoka has his leg trapped in half guard (?) but ignores it and just carries on trying to choke the guy out.

I think this may be demonstrating what I've been saying for a while, you're only ever trained to deal with the style of resistance taught by your art. Perhaps the reason there's no real ground work is that the Aikidoka isn't co-operating?

I dunno, just my way of looking at things.

DevinHammer
04-09-2009, 06:57 PM
This is not an Aikidoka, for sooooo many reasons.

salim
04-09-2009, 07:56 PM
People can say what they want, but I give the one hand guy credit. At least he tried, no matter what the expectation of those watching the video or the so called preciseness of the application. To me it's more encouraging than a lot of videos of Aikdio. Really, I'm tired of demonstrations of the same old thing. This is something we don't see often enough. Perhaps we can get the higher level Aikidoka to engage more in friendly challenges.

Kevin Leavitt
04-09-2009, 09:39 PM
the one hand guy in hakama did respectable I think. Not much skill really from either fighter, but at least the guy in the hakama did decent for what he did with one hand.

Just a thought. the guy wears a hakama and the other guy street clothes and someone labels it "Aikidoka vs MMA Guy" and that makes it so?

didn't see much skill really from either figther actually, but it was fun to watch!

Steve, nice footage of Jason Delucia and Bas Rutten. Jason used to post some on here a few years back as "Aikidog" FWIW!

Guilty Spark
04-09-2009, 10:18 PM
Just a thought. the guy wears a hakama and the other guy street clothes and someone labels it "Aikidoka vs MMA Guy" and that makes it so?

Typical youtubers. Someone mislabels a video and it's taken as gospel.

Ketsan
04-10-2009, 06:43 PM
Found the guy in an Aikido demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKHvM4nlP2M&feature=channel_page

salim
04-10-2009, 07:39 PM
Well one thing is proven based on the video. The guy seems like a legitimate Aikidoka. Interesting enough when confronted with real resistance, he applied techniques differently. Like my sensei always states, “there is the real world for Aikido and the demonstration world of Aikdio. They are not one in the same. Even though many people here were not impressed with the level of his techniques, it proves one thing, static flow does not work against real resistance. Imagine the so called MMA guy with a high level of martial competency. Many Aikidoka are use to looking a static demonstrations and nothing else.

Thanks for the video.

Amadeus
04-19-2009, 04:17 PM
Check out 0:15-0:33 (Check out 0:15-0:33 and practise the ukemi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxm09n5lIMk&feature=related) and practise the ukemi

salim
04-19-2009, 05:34 PM
We need to see more videos like this. Again, it's encouraging to me. Anybody can do a demonstration, but this takes some courage.

philippe willaume
04-20-2009, 05:44 AM
This is not an Aikidoka, for sooooo many reasons.

By my reconing, it blumming well is, if anything his atemi were a bit on the soft side but i take it the rules were soft contact.

here their atemi training
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME

phil

salim
04-20-2009, 08:34 AM
Bas Rutten (Professional MMA guy) has this to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk&feature=related

I don't agree with him completely, because he may have forgotten about using atemi to setup a pin. Interesting to hear what he has to say. Sounds like he at least has some respect for Aikido (MMA guy that is).

mwible
04-20-2009, 09:34 AM
Huh, weird. I guess in "One-arm Aikido" they don't teach tenkan or any other manner of circular movement; they focus more on the "judo chop/face slap" and leg sweeps. Also, theirs seems to be more of a "stay on the line" approach, a kind of "go straight at 'em" style. Interesting.

My thoughts exactly.

-morgan

Kevin Leavitt
04-20-2009, 09:35 AM
Salim, Bas did caveat it by saying that it might work on close distance.

I would say the exact same thing being an aikido guy. It is not about whether our methodology of training is a good one or a bad one (it is a good one for what it is designed to do).

However, when you are going toe to toe with a guy trading blows in a ring there are some real challenges that are presented that most of us in aikido don't study to defeat or to manage.

I think that is all he is really saying. It would require us to make some significant changes in our training methods.

I disagree with the whole moving off the side and catching a punch thing. I don't think this is what aikido is about, mine is not about that for sure!

salim
04-20-2009, 10:10 AM
Salim, Bas did caveat it by saying that it might work on close distance.

I would say the exact same thing being an aikido guy. It is not about whether our methodology of training is a good one or a bad one (it is a good one for what it is designed to do).

However, when you are going toe to toe with a guy trading blows in a ring there are some real challenges that are presented that most of us in aikido don't study to defeat or to manage.

I think that is all he is really saying. It would require us to make some significant changes in our training methods.

I disagree with the whole moving off the side and catching a punch thing. I don't think this is what aikido is about, mine is not about that for sure!

Yeah, I heard him say that it could work at a close distance. One thing that translates inside the ring or outside the ring is real resistance. It's all the same when confronted with a confrontation of any sort. I think the fundamental aspect of training is what is being question here. What training methods prepare you for a truly resisting opponent, inside or outside the ring?

I think the one handed Aikidoka guy, is measuring his Aikido and answering some of those questions by putting it to practice. That's the difference between the demonstration Aikidoka and the Aikidoka who test his skills with live training, real resistance against an opponent.

philippe willaume
04-20-2009, 10:33 AM
Kevin Karr wrote:
Huh, weird. I guess in "One-arm Aikido" they don't teach tenkan or any other manner of circular movement; they focus more on the "judo chop/face slap" and leg sweeps. Also, theirs seems to be more of a "stay on the line" approach, a kind of "go straight at 'em" style. Interesting.

My thoughts exactly.

-morgan

I really believe it is a bit harsh. I am not sure I would do that well without an arm.

First I can not think of any aiki takedown/pin or throw that do not use both hands and would work against even a remotely uninspired 1v1 fighter.
As well I would that you can only work with what you are given.

Even though the opponent has a little bit of a phantom guard, his strikes are delivered in a stable position and are not over committed.

So that is tenkan pretty much out of the picture.

Since the guy had only one arm, it will be quite unsafe for him to gain access to the outside via tenchin back or with an irimi that would be tenchin but forward.

Apart from what he did, I can see that much option for him. I though he did manage the clinch very well as he does need is opponent to garb him to replace the hand that he is missing. He gets the guy on the ground a few times with that.

I would agree with don the opponent was not especially savvy but the aikido guy did manage the distance, the pace at which the fight happens to his advantage.
phil

Ketsan
04-20-2009, 12:30 PM
I really believe it is a bit harsh. I am not sure I would do that well without an arm.

First I can not think of any aiki takedown/pin or throw that do not use both hands and would work against even a remotely uninspired 1v1 fighter.
As well I would that you can only work with what you are given.

Even though the opponent has a little bit of a phantom guard, his strikes are delivered in a stable position and are not over committed.

So that is tenkan pretty much out of the picture.

Since the guy had only one arm, it will be quite unsafe for him to gain access to the outside via tenchin back or with an irimi that would be tenchin but forward.

Apart from what he did, I can see that much option for him. I though he did manage the clinch very well as he does need is opponent to garb him to replace the hand that he is missing. He gets the guy on the ground a few times with that.

I would agree with don the opponent was not especially savvy but the aikido guy did manage the distance, the pace at which the fight happens to his advantage.
phil

Amen. Also in some places tenkan is basics. Up until third kyuish you make your movements bigger and bigger and then from 2nd kyu you work on making them smaller and smaller until around about shodan/nidan you can do things on the spot.

If the guy comes from a school that thinks along those lines then it could be that far from a lack of tenkan demonstrating a lack of skill a lack of tenkan could demonstrate quite high levels of skill.

Kevin Leavitt
04-20-2009, 02:50 PM
Yeah, I heard him say that it could work at a close distance. One thing that translates inside the ring or outside the ring is real resistance. It's all the same when confronted with a confrontation of any sort. I think the fundamental aspect of training is what is being question here. What training methods prepare you for a truly resisting opponent, inside or outside the ring?

I think the one handed Aikidoka guy, is measuring his Aikido and answering some of those questions by putting it to practice. That's the difference between the demonstration Aikidoka and the Aikidoka who test his skills with live training, real resistance against an opponent.

I think you have to have a multifaceted (layered/matrixed) approach to training. It includes much of the training that we typically do in aikido and other martial arts. Most folks (myself included and I train alot) simply don't have enough time or need to train that way.

I think some good things probably come out of sparring like those guys are in the video for sure. At the same time, there are many constraints and the environment is still artificial as you have two guys bouncing around the ring fighting a battle of attrition over a period of time.

As long as you are aware what those constraints and limitations are and how they impact your training, then there is no issue...it is all good training.

It is when you don't understand them and convince or extrapolate out that you can do somethings that you probably certainly can't that you have issues.

I'd say a guy like Bas Rutten is probably a pretty good judge of what works and what doesn't than the average dojo warrior!

Good discussion Salim!

Kevin Leavitt
04-20-2009, 02:54 PM
Why do you really need to tenkan in a one on one fight?

gdandscompserv
04-20-2009, 04:15 PM
Why do you really need to tenkan in a one on one fight?
To pull off the world's greatest irimi nage?:D

salim
04-20-2009, 07:00 PM
Why do you really need to tenkan in a one on one fight?

Kevin,

Unrealistic ideas or methods of training give people the impression that you have to do, such and such move to look like it's Aikdio. That's part of the point I was trying to make earlier. If it works then use it. But why use a method for the sake of looking like Aikido if it's unnecessary for a particular situation.

Kevin Leavitt
04-21-2009, 02:40 AM
agreed Salim!

Michael Varin
04-21-2009, 07:24 AM
Let's see. Where do I begin?

This, I feel, is an extremely important discussion for aikidoists to have, and one I have commented on in the past. There are two overlapping issues that really should be isolated to avoid confusion.

One is the issue of training methods. The other is the function of techniques.

For the most part, aikido has poor training methods, or at least incomplete training methods. This is of no concern if you are using aikido as a vehicle to experience harmonious interactions and as a spiritual practice, in fact, I would say that "traditional" aikido is well suited to that end. However, if you are interested in developing martial skills, then you must add another aspect to your training. Specifically, you must train against resistance. You cannot claim to have any significant amount of skill in applying your art if you only train with cooperative partners. As far as training methods go, there is much we can learn from MMA.

That is only one half of the equation. At least as important is understanding the context within which the techniques that we recognize as being "aikido" were designed to function. One-on-one empty-hand fighting seldom presents the opportunity or the need, in many cases, to use aikido's techniques. The reason for this is that they were designed to work with the use of weapons. Reason, experience, and historical evidence all bear this out. If you don't come to this understanding you will simply be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Conversely, the much heralded MMA techniques will literally get you killed if that is how you intend to fight an armed opponent. Further, this is not the set of techniques someone who is primarily interested in utilizing a weapon wants to know.

Having said all that, I do commend the one-armed man. He isn't letting his handicap slow him down.

On a side note, this thread reminded me of how much I like Bas Rutten and how much I dislike Jason Delucia.

salim
04-21-2009, 08:21 AM
Michael,

I agree with you. That's the part that can be bothersome, “harmonious interactions and as a spiritual practice.” WOW, nothing to do with self defense. Unfortunately a lot of Aikidoka will alienate you, if you don't buy into the whole Oomto religious, spiritual stuff. Will all due respect to those who do, I think it's equally important to recognize that a lot of people who love Aikido and practice Aikido, are simply not interested in spiritual aspects Aikido. Training (self defense), having fun while doing so, and building good friendships is more appealing to me.

philippe willaume
04-21-2009, 11:37 AM
To pull off the world's greatest irimi nage?:D

Argh damned your eyes
You revealed the best hidden aiki secret of all time. no one would have guessed that irimi is in fact a cunningly disguised tenkan

As a punishment, I think you should be forced to listen to c Aguilera and B Spear greatest hit in loop for half a day. That without the possibility of parole and if you appeal the greatest hit of Girl Aloud throw in the mix for good measure.

phil

wideawakedreamer
04-21-2009, 09:52 PM
Dude, you're too soft on him. Let him listen to the Spice Girls. "If you wanna be my lover/ you gotta get with my friends..." :D

philippe willaume
04-22-2009, 05:28 AM
Dude, you're too soft on him. Let him listen to the Spice Girls. "If you wanna be my lover/ you gotta get with my friends..." :D

ouch,
Are you the naural son of Elizabeth Bathory and the divine marquis by any chance?

phil

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 06:17 AM
Argh damned your eyes
You revealed the best hidden aiki secret of all time. no one would have guessed that irimi is in fact a cunningly disguised tenkan

As a punishment, I think you should be forced to listen to c Aguilera and B Spear greatest hit in loop for half a day. That without the possibility of parole and if you appeal the greatest hit of Girl Aloud throw in the mix for good measure.

phil

I quite like Girls Aloud actually..............

philippe willaume
04-22-2009, 06:53 AM
I quite like Girls Aloud actually..............

well we all have our cross to bear.
For exemple I live in england..
phil

ps dare I ask if like them equally with or without the mute on?

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 09:28 AM
Bas Rutten (Professional MMA guy) has this to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk&feature=related

I don't agree with him completely, because he may have forgotten about using atemi to setup a pin. Interesting to hear what he has to say. Sounds like he at least has some respect for Aikido (MMA guy that is).

Much as I like the guy he doesn't actually know anything about Aikido IMO of course. He's one of the 99% of people who seem to equate Aikido with Aikido kata, which is the ultimate barrier to understanding Aikido as a martial art IMO.

gdandscompserv
04-22-2009, 09:30 AM
Much as I like the guy he doesn't actually know anything about Aikido IMO of course. He's one of the 99% of people who seem to equate Aikido with Aikido kata, which is the ultimate barrier to understanding Aikido as a martial art IMO.
Yes, there is a distinct difference. I'm not sure about your 99% statistic though.

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 09:39 AM
well we all have our cross to bear.
For exemple I live in england..
phil

ps dare I ask if like them equally with or without the mute on?

You're not french are you? :D

Wait? They sing?

Lady Gaga is better though.

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 09:40 AM
Yes, there is a distinct difference. I'm not sure about your 99% statistic though.

Ok, the overwhelming majority of people both within and without Aikido, in my experience.

salim
04-22-2009, 11:06 AM
Much as I like the guy he doesn't actually know anything about Aikido IMO of course. He's one of the 99% of people who seem to equate Aikido with Aikido kata, which is the ultimate barrier to understanding Aikido as a martial art IMO.

I think more than anything he is questioning the training methods of Aikido. Choreographed patterns of movements that are practiced extensively are the standard training method in Aikido. Freestyle and or LIVE training are not generally encouraged. Often frowned upon by some. There are some Aikido dojos that due encourage LIVE training or freestyle, but not nearly the standard among many dojos. The one handed Aikidoka in the video is training using LIVE/Freestyle type training. That method of practice is not standard in Aikido. Arts such as Brazilian Jujutsu are almost 90 percent LIVE training. The Kata system is not used much in BJJ and definitely looked at as an unproven method. That's what Bas Rutten was trying to point out. He indicated that some Aikido pins can work at a close distance, wrist locks that is.

philippe willaume
04-22-2009, 12:17 PM
You're not french are you? :D

well on top of being good looking, incredibly bright, spiritual, carring and yet solid as rock, and on top of that incredibly modest. I have indeed the incredible good fortune of being French.
So after consideration, I suspect it is fair for the rest of you, that I ended up in the UK.

phil

CitoMaramba
04-22-2009, 12:28 PM
Well, uh, can we come up and have a look?

OF COURSE not! You are english Type!

Well what are you then!?

I'm french! Why do you think i have this outragious accent you silly king!

What are you doing in England?

Mind your own buisness!

If you are will not show us the grail, we shall have to take your castle by force!

You dont frighten us you English pig dogs!
Go and boil your bottoms! Son of a silly person!
I'll blow my nose at you, so called Arthur king! You and all your silly English cunnnnnnnnnigits!

TTHPPBPBB!!(making fart nosies with tongue)

What a strange person.....

Now look here my good man..

I dont wanna talk to you no more you empty headed animal foot trough water! I'll fart in your general direction! Your mother was a hamster and you father smelt of eldiberry!!!!

Is there someone else up there we can talk to?

NO! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

Look at it this way, someone would've brought it up sooner or later..

Ron Tisdale
04-22-2009, 12:37 PM
Spam spam spam spam spam....

:D
B,
R

Michael Douglas
04-22-2009, 01:02 PM
Girls Aloud are excellent ... most of the time, especially in fishnets.
I quite like Girls Aloud actually..............
And they DON'T SPEAK FRENCH either! :D

philippe willaume
04-22-2009, 01:09 PM
I think more than anything he is questioning the training methods of Aikido. Choreographed patterns of movements that are practiced extensively are the standard training method in Aikido. Freestyle and or LIVE training are not generally encouraged. Often frowned upon by some. There are some Aikido dojos that due encourage LIVE training or freestyle, but not nearly the standard among many dojos. The one handed Aikidoka in the video is training using LIVE/Freestyle type training. That method of practice is not standard in Aikido. Arts such as Brazilian Jujutsu are almost 90 percent LIVE training. The Kata system is not used much in BJJ and definitely looked at as an unproven method. That's what Bas Rutten was trying to point out. He indicated that some Aikido pins can work at a close distance, wrist locks that is.

Hello
I am not sure that both of you are saying something that different.
Good old Bas probably does not have an intricate knowledge of aikido but to be fair you do not need any to see that on most of the aiki (do or jujutsu, for that matter)video attacks are delivered out of range and in a sloppy manner.
Or that trying to tenkan against a guy striking properly is pure fantasy.

That being said kata are useful as training aid and can be turned in controlled/form sparing quite easily.
I think there is some precaution to take when sparing with akido because thing can go horribly wrong in case of an unforeseen event (i.e. tripping on hakama when someone tries to resist a technique properly applied )
It is much harder for to go horribly wrong in BJJ. So you probably need a more controlled environment The way I understand it is that he believe that aikido as he know it, globally does not work, save some technique at close range.

But I think more realistic kokuy and live paired practice and starting at different stage of the technique will compensate for that

salim
04-22-2009, 01:39 PM
Philippe,

I agree.

second note.......

The highly probably cause of incident from the HAKAMA.
(i.e. tripping on hakama when someone tries to resist a technique properly applied ) Although the one handed guy did very well with the hakama on during his live sparring. I have to say, possibly the best reason as to why my sensei does not stress the wearing of the HAKAMA. We tend to do LIVE training often. The HAKAMA can be a disaster waiting to happen with LIVE training.

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 08:43 PM
well on top of being good looking, incredibly bright, spiritual, carring and yet solid as rock, and on top of that incredibly modest. I have indeed the incredible good fortune of being French.
So after consideration, I suspect it is fair for the rest of you, that I ended up in the UK.

phil

Yeah. I knew it. :D You come here, you criticise our girl bands...................*grumble* :D

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 08:45 PM
Philippe,

I agree.

second note.......

The highly probably cause of incident from the HAKAMA.
(i.e. tripping on hakama when someone tries to resist a technique properly applied ) Although the one handed guy did very well with the hakama on during his live sparring. I have to say, possibly the best reason as to why my sensei does not stress the wearing of the HAKAMA. We tend to do LIVE training often. The HAKAMA can be a disaster waiting to happen with LIVE training.

I always thought that the samurai would tuck up their hakama before a scrap to avoid just this. It's always baffled me why Aikidoka don't do it. Logically we should spend most of our time with our hakama hitched up out of the way.

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 08:47 PM
Spam spam spam spam spam....

:D
B,
R

egg, spam and spam

Ketsan
04-22-2009, 08:50 PM
I think more than anything he is questioning the training methods of Aikido. Choreographed patterns of movements that are practiced extensively are the standard training method in Aikido. Freestyle and or LIVE training are not generally encouraged. Often frowned upon by some. There are some Aikido dojos that due encourage LIVE training or freestyle, but not nearly the standard among many dojos. The one handed Aikidoka in the video is training using LIVE/Freestyle type training. That method of practice is not standard in Aikido. Arts such as Brazilian Jujutsu are almost 90 percent LIVE training. The Kata system is not used much in BJJ and definitely looked at as an unproven method. That's what Bas Rutten was trying to point out. He indicated that some Aikido pins can work at a close distance, wrist locks that is.

What other range would a grappling art work at?

salim
04-23-2009, 08:01 AM
What other range would a grappling art work at?

Again, it's the poor training that exist in many Aikido dojos and or some unrealistic techniques that are in question against a resisting opponent. Bas Rutten basically indicated that it would be pretty difficult to catch, boxing like punches to execute a wrist lock or arm lock. Once you are in some kind of a clinch with the opponent then then you have a greater chance to execute a wrist lock or arm lock. The below videos explain a little of what I mean. The techniques in the below videos would have to be practice in LIVE sparring situations to really become accustom to executing against resistance. Again it's the training methods that's really being question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPe8-VCvmSo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y

Ketsan
04-23-2009, 12:42 PM
Again, it's the poor training that exist in many Aikido dojos and or some unrealistic techniques that are in question against a resisting opponent. Bas Rutten basically indicated that it would be pretty difficult to catch, boxing like punches to execute a wrist lock or arm lock. Once you are in some kind of a clinch with the opponent then then you have a greater chance to execute a wrist lock or arm lock. The below videos explain a little of what I mean. The techniques in the below videos would have to be practice in LIVE sparring situations to really become accustom to executing against resistance. Again it's the training methods that's really being question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPe8-VCvmSo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y

If I wanted to announce to a group of Aikidoka that I knew nothing about Aikido I'd say something like "You can't catch boxing punches" and I'd expect to be laughed at for thinking anyone said that it was possible in the first place.

In the space of 20 seconds it is possible to demonstrate that Aikido is effective against a boxer and possible to teach someone how to prevent your opponent throwing straight punches by dominating the center line. He's been a professional fighter, he should know this and he should be able to see it in Aikido.

Then there's the technique thing, there are no techniques in Aikido, techniques are in fact the antithesis of Aikido. Anyone that talks about techniques unrealistic or not has missed the point entirely. More important than technique is dominance which is central to Aikido even if we go about it in an unusual way. If you're practicing Aikido correctly there shouldn't be a live situation.

salim
04-23-2009, 02:16 PM
Sure, the same could be said for a BJJ practitioner or any Jujutsu guy. Simplify it more and use a gun. That always works.
Subjective, philosophical terminologies for what is and isn't a technique leads to a circular conversation. Wrist locks and Arm bars are application techniques. Wrist locks and Arm bars are part of Aikido. The method in which you utilize them is the debate here.

Dominance is not always an option in any given situation. You want always beat your opponent before he/she strikes or grabs or pulls, maybe even reversing or simply trying to apply the same technique. Demonstrations don't prepare you for dealing with a resisting opponent from various angles of sparring. It's one reason BJJ guys almost exclusively, never use demonstrations methods.

They have to be tested in LIVE sparring/training, situation. BJJ is Aikido on the ground. Some of the same principles of redirecting, blending and leveraging, as oppose to meeting force head on. You don't rely on strength for either.
The difference is the level of intensity in training among BJJ practitioners verse Aikido practitioners in general. You will always have those who among Aikidoka who believe in LIVE training. I certainly do.

Nathan Wallace
04-23-2009, 04:53 PM
this is sad, all of this. its just sad.

Kevin Leavitt
04-23-2009, 05:50 PM
why is it sad?

Nathan Wallace
04-24-2009, 12:11 PM
it's the same tired arguments again and again, nobody is going to change their mind here because its become a matter of pride.

I'll post a video later to show some of my responses.

salim
04-24-2009, 02:21 PM
it's the same tired arguments again and again, nobody is going to change their mind here because its become a matter of pride.

I'll post a video later to show some of my responses.

Whatever you post, please don't post the same old tired demonstrations we see over and over again on youtube and everywhere else on the internet. Every other Aikido dojo in the country demonstrates hype. Demonstrations prove nothing, but hypothetical theory. We need to see something that really substantiates your argument. Perhaps live, friendly, controlled sparring of some sort.

Jujutsu dojos are believable because they prove with live, friendly, controlled, professional sparring. Test your methods with true integrity. I believe the one handed Aikido guy in the videos below, because he really tested himself and his ability, it was clearly shown. Maybe not the best sparring or best methods, but it shows integrity. It's respectable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLqovX4G8Z0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwt9_G6VcME&feature=related

wideawakedreamer
04-29-2009, 11:13 PM
ouch,
Are you the naural son of Elizabeth Bathory and the divine marquis by any chance?

phil

Who are they? I don't know them, but I do know I'm divine. Not to mention modest, humble, and damn proud of it.;)

wideawakedreamer
04-29-2009, 11:30 PM
The nikkajo in the first video is very similar to how we practice nikkyo in our dojo. We also use atemi this way. I have yet to test it in a live sparring situation though.

Again, it's the poor training that exist in many Aikido dojos and or some unrealistic techniques that are in question against a resisting opponent. Bas Rutten basically indicated that it would be pretty difficult to catch, boxing like punches to execute a wrist lock or arm lock. Once you are in some kind of a clinch with the opponent then then you have a greater chance to execute a wrist lock or arm lock. The below videos explain a little of what I mean. The techniques in the below videos would have to be practice in LIVE sparring situations to really become accustom to executing against resistance. Again it's the training methods that's really being question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPe8-VCvmSo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y