PDA

View Full Version : Rude Noises and other offending stuff in class


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Buck
03-28-2009, 01:01 AM
I got back from training and I am so tired of offending smells, noises, and habit of people that are damn distracting. My 11 most offensive.

1. Farting: everyone one laughs (if it is audible) until it offends the Olafactory

2. Burping: noise distraction and unpleasant to hear

3. Unclean stained gi pants

4. Unclean and OB laden smelly gi

5. Body Odor

6. Poor personal hygiene: long or dirty toenails or fingernails, no bathing, not washing hands after restroom use, etc.

7. For the lack of a better term, the uke orgasming sounds.

8. Overdosing use of perfume and colone

9. Feet and nose picking then training without cleaning

10. Urine stained gi pant after using restroom

11. Walking barefoot into the restroom then on to the mat

Walter Martindale
03-28-2009, 02:15 AM
I got back from training and I am so tired of offending smells, noises, and habit of people that are damn distracting. My 11 most offensive.

1. Farting: everyone one laughs (if it is audible) until it offends the Olafactory

2. Burping: noise distraction and unpleasant to hear

3. Unclean stained gi pants

4. Unclean and OB laden smelly gi

5. Body Odor

6. Poor personal hygiene: long or dirty toenails or fingernails, no bathing, not washing hands after restroom use, etc.

7. For the lack of a better term, the uke orgasming sounds.

8. Overdosing use of perfume and colone

9. Feet and nose picking then training without cleaning

10. Urine stained gi pant after using restroom

11. Walking barefoot into the restroom then on to the mat
Hmmm
Well... 1. We're mammals. Mammals fart - vegetarian mammals' farts don't smell as much as carnivorous mammals' farts because of the sulfur in the meat. True, it's rude, but if some people had to leave the room every time they had to toot, they'd never leave the toilets.
2. yeah - rude...
3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11 - spot on - to add to 9 - using toilet and not cleaning. you want to grab my wrist after you've done THAT? No wonder a shihan I know washes his hands and wrists with soap and water after teaching a seminar with us white barbarians.

7. Some dojos I've been to suggest that this "uhhh" sort of sound that comes from an uke is something he/she can't help when the balance has truly been taken. It may just be an indication that nage's technique was spot on (positive feedback). It may, on the other hand, be play acting (see? I can sound like I've been kuzusihi'd)

W

Michael Douglas
03-28-2009, 05:17 AM
That's disgusting Philip, making us read that list.
I feel the need to scour ...

12. Dirty List of filthy stuff.

Marc Abrams
03-28-2009, 09:06 AM
Philip:

Thank you for sharing! I am sure that humanity will do it's utmost to try and not offend you in the future.

Marc Abrams

John Matsushima
03-28-2009, 11:06 AM
These are some of the things that happens when people say they don't need the spiritual side of Aikido, and just want to learn technique.

Guilty Spark
03-28-2009, 12:24 PM
Heavy make up

mathewjgano
03-28-2009, 03:34 PM
I got back from training and I am so tired of offending smells, noises, and habit of people that are damn distracting...
11. Walking barefoot into the restroom then on to the mat
Yeah, cleanliness is a pretty nice thing. I like it when folks smell more like Tiger balm than old socks...and the orgasmic ukemi always makes me chuckle...especially when I catch myself doing it! Hey it feels nice ok!?
I'm not trying to imply anything here, but I personally get frustrated when training with folks who are easily distracted....probably a case of disliking in others what I dislike most about myself though.

lbb
03-28-2009, 07:17 PM
I got back from training and I am so tired of offending smells, noises, and habit of people that are damn distracting. My 11 most offensive.

(disgusting list mercifully elided)

Holy Hannah, what the heck kind of place do you train???

Lyle Laizure
03-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Sounds like a place I would avoid in the future.

mickeygelum
03-29-2009, 02:21 AM
...and the "Buck" stops there! :crazy:

Ron Tisdale
03-29-2009, 07:09 PM
Waaaaaaaaaaa.......

Move along, nothing to smell here...

B,
R

philippe willaume
03-30-2009, 04:21 AM
I got back from training and I am so tired of offending smells, noises, and habit of people that are damn distracting. My 11 most offensive.

1. Farting: everyone one laughs (if it is audible) until it offends the Olafactory

2. Burping: noise distraction and unpleasant to hear

3. Unclean stained gi pants

4. Unclean and OB laden smelly gi

5. Body Odor

6. Poor personal hygiene: long or dirty toenails or fingernails, no bathing, not washing hands after restroom use, etc.

7. For the lack of a better term, the uke orgasming sounds.

8. Overdosing use of perfume and colone

9. Feet and nose picking then training without cleaning

10. Urine stained gi pant after using restroom

11. Walking barefoot into the restroom then on to the mat

You know people pay good money for that in London.

My hart and mind goes to our BJJ friend when especially when they are in a north- south.

That being said there is nothing more gratiffying that letting one rip and have someonelse get the wrap for it.

phil

Michael Douglas
03-30-2009, 08:38 AM
Did you see the youtube of the guy 'staining' himself in JJ competition?

SmilingNage
03-30-2009, 10:05 AM
It would have to be someone who insists on having a conversation when its your turn to be Nage. You want to talk do when you are Nage.

Someone who tries to instruct during seminars when their name isnt on the seminar flyer.

gdandscompserv
03-30-2009, 11:30 AM
intolerance???

Buck
03-30-2009, 11:57 PM
It would have to be someone who insists on having a conversation when its your turn to be Nage. You want to talk do when you are Nage.

Someone who tries to instruct during seminars when their name isnt on the seminar flyer.

The orgasming sounding uke is annoying, "Ohhhh yea...you got it, you got, keep it...yea keep it....right... there....ohhhh yea... right there....perfect. That is not as bad as what William said, that has to be the number one offending thing.

Neal Earhart
03-31-2009, 12:10 PM
3. Unclean stained gi pants

4. Unclean and OB laden smelly gi


There is no excuse for wearing dirty/smelly gi's while training with other people. :mad: :grr:

You practice...then you take your gi home and you wash it before you wear it again...it's that simple.

None of this garbage..."Well, I didn't sweat...so no need to wash my gi...I can wear it again." Wrong !!

And while you are it, take the time to sew/patch any holes in your gi and/or hakama...

ramenboy
03-31-2009, 12:34 PM
hahahaha

i had one sempai who would say in the middle of practice, 'when i go to adjust the weapons on the rack, don't follow me...'

aikibudo
03-31-2009, 02:33 PM
These are some of the things that happens when people say they don't need the spiritual side of Aikido, and just want to learn technique.

and whats wrong with just learning technique?

Ketsan
03-31-2009, 05:17 PM
and whats wrong with just learning technique?

You end up with a brown stain in your pants when you come to actually use it.

aikibudo
03-31-2009, 07:21 PM
You end up with a brown stain in your pants when you come to actually use it.

....right:rolleyes:

Buck
03-31-2009, 08:03 PM
I visited and goofed around at an MMA school. They where the cleanest and most sanitary, conscientious place I was ever at. Staph infections can be pretty ugly.

I don't know about some of you, but it does bother me the lack of personal hygiene and rude behavior. I didn't even mention picking at feet, picking a nose, digging at a gi wedgie and more on the mat and not cleaning the hands before training. Aikido is a Japanese martial art and all I can think of is how the westerners in the movie Shogun where looked at by the Samurai.

To each is his own, don't let me stop anyone from training with someone who isn't polite and passes gas right there on the mat. Which reminds me. The first Aikido dojo I went to made everyone clean their feet. A fresh clean water basin was at the edge of the mat. You would remove your shoes, then was with soap and water your feet with a clean wash cloth and dry with a fresh towel. The Sensei was really into personal hygiene and expected it from the students. And would admonish anyone for passing gas, burping etc. as being very rude. He trained in Japan, his wife was Japanese. She was the one giving out the clean clothes and towels to the student.

I remember asking why this ritual cleaning thing so important, and his wife came down on me so hard for even asking why. What I remember the most of what she said was, this is Japanese budo. I think it is pretty clear what she meant. That is what I considered one of the most important lesson in Japanese and Aikido, that personal hygiene is taken seriously.

FWIW, some of you will never have to worry about me visiting your dojo. :yuck:

lbb
03-31-2009, 08:40 PM
FWIW, some of you will never have to worry about me visiting your dojo. :yuck:

Yes, well, while we're critiquing each other's manners, I've always felt it was the height of rudeness to refuse an invitation that hasn't been proffered (the implication being, "Your <fill in the blank...dojo in this case>, about which I really know nothing at all, is beneath me, and the very idea of an invitation is such an insult that I'm going to preemptively refuse it in the most insulting possible terms.").

Flintstone
04-01-2009, 06:01 AM
You end up with a brown stain in your pants when you come to actually use it.
Really? Is that so?

philippe willaume
04-01-2009, 07:45 AM
I visited and goofed around at an MMA school. They where the cleanest and most sanitary, conscientious place I was ever at. Staph infections can be pretty ugly.

I don't know about some of you, but it does bother me the lack of personal hygiene and rude behavior. I didn't even mention picking at feet, picking a nose, digging at a gi wedgie and more on the mat and not cleaning the hands before training. Aikido is a Japanese martial art and all I can think of is how the westerners in the movie Shogun where looked at by the Samurai.

To each is his own, don't let me stop anyone from training with someone who isn't polite and passes gas right there on the mat. Which reminds me. The first Aikido dojo I went to made everyone clean their feet. A fresh clean water basin was at the edge of the mat. You would remove your shoes, then was with soap and water your feet with a clean wash cloth and dry with a fresh towel. The Sensei was really into personal hygiene and expected it from the students. And would admonish anyone for passing gas, burping etc. as being very rude. He trained in Japan, his wife was Japanese. She was the one giving out the clean clothes and towels to the student.

I remember asking why this ritual cleaning thing so important, and his wife came down on me so hard for even asking why. What I remember the most of what she said was, this is Japanese budo. I think it is pretty clear what she meant. That is what I considered one of the most important lesson in Japanese and Aikido, that personal hygiene is taken seriously.

FWIW, some of you will never have to worry about me visiting your dojo. :yuck:

Well,
You are not going to go like Wimbledon female single final then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97Aey8P7CaI

If you are that bothered about it, don't tell us; tell the crowd you train with.
It will be more productive. I realise it might be bloody well hard for them as they are very likely to stink in any case as per pet peeve 5 and 8, but it is worth a try.

It may come as a stunner, but the vast majority of us do wash both ourselves every day and their kit in between training sessions. On the same vein it is not a widely spread goal to give a farting rendition of toccata and fugues in re minor each time one does step onto the mat. But as the saying goes crap happens.

Now if you train hard you will sweat, that is even how you know you did.
And all of us keep a fart in whilst seating in seiza, it is mush much harder when you are at the receiving end of jije garami koshinague.

Phil

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 08:19 AM
....right:rolleyes:

Tell me, how good do you think your technical skills will serve you during a panic attack?

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 08:29 AM
Really? Is that so?

Yeah I see people panicing in gradings, never mind in fights. I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.

The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.

mathewjgano
04-01-2009, 08:35 AM
On the same vein it is not a widely spread goal to give a farting rendition of toccata and fugues in re minor each time one does step onto the mat. But as the saying goes crap happens.

Disclaimer: It's early; I'm tired; and this is the first thing I've read all day.

Suddenly I'm reminded of the grand old International Crepitation Contest between Lord Windesmere of Whopping Foghole and the upstart from Australia, Paul Boomer! A fine contest the likes of which haven't been seen (or heard) in years!
It was a comedy album and an integral part of my upbringing as a child and required listening for my closest friends.:D
...and now I have a new goal in life: to make Bach proud with my, um, "trumpeting" ability!

Flintstone
04-01-2009, 09:12 AM
The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.
I still fail to see that calm and self-control are the exclusive property of spiritual training.

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 09:32 AM
I still fail to see that calm and self-control are the exclusive property of spiritual training.

If you embark on developing your mental relaxation and self-control you are embarking on spiritual training.

lbb
04-01-2009, 09:53 AM
Tell me, how good do you think your technical skills will serve you during a panic attack?

What does training for technique (as opposed to training for spiritual whatever have to do with having "panic attacks" (which, themselves, have nothing to do with panicking in a self-defense situation)?

lbb
04-01-2009, 09:57 AM
Yeah I see people panicing in gradings, never mind in fights. I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.

The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.

...or people (whether martial artists or not) who are grownups and not hormone-enslaved adolescents, who have jobs and lives and have been taught to deal with AnnoyingMan by experts. Ain't nothin' "spiritual" about it, just common sense and refusing to play your sandbox games. How is it that you're so confident of your ability to get up people's noses to the point of "allowing [you] to win", anyway? Had considerable practice at it, have you? I'd just laugh at you if you tried to start with me; where's your power over me?

raul rodrigo
04-01-2009, 10:53 AM
Perhaps a man who is prone to annoying people into attacking him might not be as far along in his spiritual development as he might think.

mathewjgano
04-01-2009, 11:32 AM
Perhaps a man who is prone to annoying people into attacking him might not be as far along in his spiritual development as he might think.

evileyes Well, I'm sure the sophists would agree!:D ...poor Socrates (totally pronounced "So Crates")!

mathewjgano
04-01-2009, 12:00 PM
And now that I've tried my comedy routine...
I think Alex's point seems clear enough: controlling ones own mind is a crucial factor in not coming unraveled (i.e. maintaining focus) under pressure. Panic attacks are an extreme form of pressure and, as I've come to understand them, are very much a scattering of the mind...like going eight directions at once with the net result being petrification...deer in the headlights.
Of course, that's just one example of how the mind might need some practice at generating focus (which to me implies a degree of calm). Distractions like the ukemi-asm (copyright 2009) are mild examples. In either case, the mind is distracted from the purpose of the moment.

lbb
04-01-2009, 12:43 PM
And now that I've tried my comedy routine...
I think Alex's point seems clear enough: controlling ones own mind is a crucial factor in not coming unraveled (i.e. maintaining focus) under pressure. Panic attacks are an extreme form of pressure and, as I've come to understand them, are very much a scattering of the mind...like going eight directions at once with the net result being petrification...deer in the headlights.

I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.

Guilty Spark
04-01-2009, 12:56 PM
....right:rolleyes:

Has a pretty good point

mathewjgano
04-01-2009, 01:29 PM
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.
My sense of them is that they are situations in which any number of things can suddenly seem threatening (regardless of the reason). Hence the "panic" part of the equation. I've never known someone to panic without there being some form of threat, real or perceived, and that's why it seems to relate to me. Panic attacks aren't the point though, it's the idea of controling the mind in the face of perceived threat. In the same way a person experiencing these "attacks" can practice breathing exercises, etc. to lessen this distraction from the tasks at hand (e.g. enjoying a movie with a friend, buying milk, etc.), so too can a person practice the same exercises to remain calm in the face of other, more physical threats.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.
I think "spiritual" might have been meant to invoke a sense of the "deeper" or otherwise more personal issues we might have which can affect our responses. This isn't to say that people who don't think of their training as spiritual are lacking in these abilities...of course I am presuming to know someone else's meaning...

Guilty Spark
04-01-2009, 01:31 PM
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.

Disagree. I think you might be getting wrapped around a technical idea of the idea.

A panic attack is just that. You suddenly panic, the cause of why you panic could vary greatly. Usually it's something serious (I would imagine) like being corndered by a physically intimidating person, crashing ones car, starting to drown. It could probably also be something that seems minute to us like forgetting a technique, not having enough quarters for laundry etc.. It's people brought out of their comfort level.
I've been practicing swimming with 10 and 20 pound brick. Quite a few times I've went under. At first I paniced and dropped it. Afterwards I wasn't as stressed out by near drowning and now when I sink I don't panic.


I agree about the spiritual connection though. Thinking your all zen and in touch with yourself is great but like the saying goes
'You don't rise to the level of your expectations you drop to the level of your training'.
If you don't practice your techniqe under stressful conditions (with your heart rate going, field of view narrowed etc.) when one is IN that situation they may not perform as well as they assumed they would. I've actually seen that happen a lot.

Alex,
I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.
Do you actually believe this??

No offense but if you were serious then that's a horrible mindset when it comes to self defense. Yikes. That kinda thinking is how martial artists get seriously injured or killed man.

Kevin Karr
04-01-2009, 02:01 PM
Well, I do agree that having poor personal hygiene is annoying/disrespectful and so is wearing a dirty gi. However, as far as farting or burping go, some people just do not have as much control over certain bodily functions as others do, especially as we age. Passing gas happens often during opening stretches. No one intends for this to happen...it just happens with the onset of vigorous exercise. It happens during ukemi for the same reason. This sort of thing must be understood in the keikoba/dojo so if it happens, it is instantly forgotten. People can't help having indigestion or other gastrointestinal functions. Now, if everyone on the mat starts giggling when it does occur...that is unacceptable.

As far as this crosstalk about "spiritual" training...What is the difference between hard training in technique and "spiritual" training? To me, they are one and the same. One can't happen without the other. Only through consistent, hard practice is one going to be able to discover any "spiritual" aspects of the art. Anything less is just playing.

phitruong
04-01-2009, 02:38 PM
do you know how hard it is to not do #1 when you are doing a split stretch? or #2 when you get drill into the floor with a good koshi? now, if you practice on the beach, grass, backyard among live-stock, snow (god forbid!), and so on, it would be kinda hard to worry about hygiene and stuffs like that. now, if i am in a fight on the street and get someone in one of those locks, where my derriere next to my opponent face and all of my limbs are busy, and I have #1 available, I would not hesitate to use it to speed up the process of choking the bugger out. :D

Mystery Men "The Spleen" :D

Michael Douglas
04-01-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm appalled that not enough posters are requesting a vid with sound ;
... On the same vein it is not a widely spread goal to give a farting rendition of toccata and fugues in re minor each time one does step onto the mat.
Vid plzkthks ... with SOUND. :D

Yeah I see people panicing in gradings, never mind in fights. I bet I could annoy just about any martial artist to the point they would loose their temper and attack me and in so doing I would have put them in a state where all their training is liable to go flying out of the window, allowing me to win.

The exception to this is the martial artists that take their spirtual training seriously because they have a grip on themselves.
Other, more effective exception : people who train while in that same angry or panicked state ... training techniques and attitude which work in that state. I'm of the opinion that not all (nor most) Aikido standard waza do work in that state.
My point is not to try to avoid the state, accept it and train within it, at least sometimes.
Drift:(I'm also sure Ueshiba was familiar with it, hence broken hipped judoka.)
edit: oh. : & ( = :( . Interesting.

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 04:11 PM
What does training for technique (as opposed to training for spiritual whatever have to do with having "panic attacks" (which, themselves, have nothing to do with panicking in a self-defense situation)?

Well I'd liken panicking in a self defence situation to a panic attack, but that's just me.

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 04:14 PM
Perhaps a man who is prone to annoying people into attacking him might not be as far along in his spiritual development as he might think.

I couldn't agree more.

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 04:40 PM
Alex,

Do you actually believe this??

No offense but if you were serious then that's a horrible mindset when it comes to self defense. Yikes. That kinda thinking is how martial artists get seriously injured or killed man.

Actually I got the idea from Musashi, from what I understand it was a common strategy of his. Turning up hours late, violating etiquette. I think I read somewhere that he stated that he was only an average swordsman, but an excellent strategist.

That aside, really I was just outlining that life or death can hang on your fudoshin which is IMO a product of spiritual training. If your opponent can take your mind, physical defeat is certain.

I can't realistically think of a situation where provoking an attack is a good idea though, not in this day and age. For one thing it seems a good way of getting shot or stabbed.

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 04:44 PM
...or people (whether martial artists or not) who are grownups and not hormone-enslaved adolescents, who have jobs and lives and have been taught to deal with AnnoyingMan by experts. Ain't nothin' "spiritual" about it, just common sense and refusing to play your sandbox games. How is it that you're so confident of your ability to get up people's noses to the point of "allowing [you] to win", anyway? Had considerable practice at it, have you? I'd just laugh at you if you tried to start with me; where's your power over me?

Looks like I've already started annoying you, and I wasn't even trying! Talk about taking things personally! :D

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 05:01 PM
I'm appalled that not enough posters are requesting a vid with sound ;

Vid plzkthks ... with SOUND. :D

Other, more effective exception : people who train while in that same angry or panicked state ... training techniques and attitude which work in that state. I'm of the opinion that not all (nor most) Aikido standard waza do work in that state.
My point is not to try to avoid the state, accept it and train within it, at least sometimes.
Drift:(I'm also sure Ueshiba was familiar with it, hence broken hipped judoka.)
edit: oh. : & ( = :( . Interesting.

Yeah I think there's definately something more than meets the eye to O-Sensei stating that practice should take place in a joyful atmosphere.

lbb
04-01-2009, 08:03 PM
Well I'd liken panicking in a self defence situation to a panic attack, but that's just me.

Yeah, it is just you. You're humpty-dumpying the term "panic attack", which makes it useless in any sort of meaningful discourse.

lbb
04-01-2009, 08:10 PM
Looks like I've already started annoying you, and I wasn't even trying! Talk about taking things personally! :D

And this, my friends, is a technique known as passive-aggressiveness. "Oh, I wasn't doing anything, it's all youuuuuu." Where's your power, Alex? You're striving to prove that you have control overr people, but so far it looks like nothing but talk to me. Even if it weren't, is it really something to be proud of? "Hey, lookit me, I excel at pushing people's buttons!" Spiritual development fares poorly when it's only a shoddy cloak for manipulative behavior.

aikibudo
04-01-2009, 08:53 PM
Arg.... why does it seem threads get derailed by "spiritual" aikido

Ketsan
04-01-2009, 09:20 PM
And this, my friends, is a technique known as passive-aggressiveness. "Oh, I wasn't doing anything, it's all youuuuuu." Where's your power, Alex? You're striving to prove that you have control overr people, but so far it looks like nothing but talk to me. Even if it weren't, is it really something to be proud of? "Hey, lookit me, I excel at pushing people's buttons!" Spiritual development fares poorly when it's only a shoddy cloak for manipulative behavior.

One of us is ranting.

Lyle Laizure
04-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Philip I am curious as to what dojo you currently train at.

Guilty Spark
04-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Actually I got the idea from Musashi, from what I understand it was a common strategy of his. Turning up hours late, violating etiquette. I think I read somewhere that he stated that he was only an average swordsman, but an excellent strategist.

That aside, really I was just outlining that life or death can hang on your fudoshin which is IMO a product of spiritual training. If your opponent can take your mind, physical defeat is certain.

I can't realistically think of a situation where provoking an attack is a good idea though, not in this day and age. For one thing it seems a good way of getting shot or stabbed.

Ah, read the same book. I think it sounds good on paper but trickier in practice. Much like getting in a fight with someone and simply continuing to dodge your attacker until they get tired and presto you win :D

A friend of mine was big on the distraction thing, when she did taekwondo sparing she'd slap his fingers in the air stop her foot on the ground and shout a lot. I remember seeing one match where she was trying that and her opponent charged in and knocked her out.
I think it has it's pro's but like waiting until someone is tired, one shouldn't count on it.

Buck
04-02-2009, 12:06 AM
Philip I am curious as to what dojo you currently train at.

My list was a combination of things I have experienced in going to different dojos and seminars. The dojo I go to now, is small, private, elite, snobby place where good personal hygiene is a demand. I post that after a night of beers after class. Yea, it was crude in subject. But never the less any truer. :)

lbb
04-02-2009, 07:31 AM
One of us is ranting.

One of us is name-calling. Is that proper behavior for this forum?

Ketsan
04-02-2009, 07:49 AM
Arg.... why does it seem threads get derailed by "spiritual" aikido

Ok, switch "spiritual" for "psychological" since most eastern spirituality is in fact largely psychology. Call it mushin or "being in the zone" if you're not there when you need to be and the other guy is, you're dead, even if you're technically vastly superior to him.

Ketsan
04-02-2009, 08:42 AM
One of us is name-calling. Is that proper behavior for this forum?

:rolleyes:

Ketsan
04-02-2009, 08:58 AM
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.

I also don't see the "spiritual" connection. There are all kinds of spiritual practices, most of which are probably not going to be particularly helpful in a situation of real threat -- yet they are authentically spiritual practices. Likewise, there are many other practices, physical and mental, that have not a lick of spirituality to them, and that can teach people to respond quite well to threats.

Well I do suffer from panic attacks and I have been attacked in the street and panicked and I have arachnaphobia and I REALLY did used to panic if I saw a spider. Regardless of the stimulus the feeling is identical.

The spiritual connection is this: my meditation teacher's (a buddhist monk) relaxation technqiues are identical to the coping stratgies taught on a course my doctor sent me on.
And it doesn't matter what the stimulus the same techniques work to deal with it. I have a mantra I repeat to myself when I get anxious "Nothing has happened, stop fantasising."

Basia Halliop
04-02-2009, 10:01 AM
I have a mantra I repeat to myself when I get anxious "Nothing has happened, stop fantasising."

But isn't that kind of the point? Is this particular strategy likely to be as effective when something HAS happened? In the case of an irrational panic response to something out of proportion, the challenge, I would think, is to get the less logical parts of your brain to recognize that there is no real threat and that no action is needed, and that the only danger comes from within yourself. You might understandably want to focus on things like calming yourself down, taking some time to slow your thoughts and breathing and getting your body OUT of any kind of a 'fight or flight' state, etc. (although it still seems arguable what is really spiritual about that, but I guess to some people it might be; that's fine -- what you call it is up to you).

Guilty Spark
04-02-2009, 01:18 PM
:rolleyes:

You and Mary sound like Neil Mick and Mike Sigum :D

Interesting mantra "nothing has happened". Reminds me of something I read in Way of Aikido, The: Life Lessons from an American Sensei (one of my favorite books).
Mentions something like a mantra. When going for a test one says to them self upon entering the room 'I own this room'. Opening the test 'I own this test' etc.. Hope I'm not misquoting. I've tried it and actually find it very centering and calming.

lbb
04-02-2009, 02:59 PM
Well I do suffer from panic attacks and I have been attacked in the street and panicked and I have arachnaphobia and I REALLY did used to panic if I saw a spider. Regardless of the stimulus the feeling is identical.

If you say so. I guess I'm just not the panicky type.

The spiritual connection is this: my meditation teacher's (a buddhist monk) relaxation technqiues are identical to the coping stratgies taught on a course my doctor sent me on.
And it doesn't matter what the stimulus the same techniques work to deal with it. I have a mantra I repeat to myself when I get anxious "Nothing has happened, stop fantasising."

That's great, but I think you're making a logical error. Because you were taught a relaxation technique by a person who happens to follow a spiritual discipline, you believe that "relaxation techniques" are spiritual practices. That's not so. Your teacher's may be. Yours aren't, necessarily -- they could be, but just being taught an esoteric practice by a monk does not make it a spiritual practice for you. Beyond that, though, there are any number of relaxation techniques that do not have any spiritual basis whatsoever.

Ketsan
04-02-2009, 04:48 PM
If you say so. I guess I'm just not the panicky type.

That's great, but I think you're making a logical error. Because you were taught a relaxation technique by a person who happens to follow a spiritual discipline, you believe that "relaxation techniques" are spiritual practices. That's not so. Your teacher's may be. Yours aren't, necessarily -- they could be, but just being taught an esoteric practice by a monk does not make it a spiritual practice for you. Beyond that, though, there are any number of relaxation techniques that do not have any spiritual basis whatsoever.

I believe any process that changes you as a person is a spiritual process. It's not about the basis of the process, it's the effect.

Ketsan
04-02-2009, 05:44 PM
But isn't that kind of the point? Is this particular strategy likely to be as effective when something HAS happened? In the case of an irrational panic response to something out of proportion, the challenge, I would think, is to get the less logical parts of your brain to recognize that there is no real threat and that no action is needed, and that the only danger comes from within yourself. You might understandably want to focus on things like calming yourself down, taking some time to slow your thoughts and breathing and getting your body OUT of any kind of a 'fight or flight' state, etc. (although it still seems arguable what is really spiritual about that, but I guess to some people it might be; that's fine -- what you call it is up to you).

Now that I have coping mechanisms in place I'm as steady as a rock. The coping mechanisms have produced a spiritual change in me. Yes I wobble now and then, but I'm actually cooler under pressure than most people are. I can seperate myself out from my thoughts if that makes sense.
That's something I picked up from my meditation teacher, I think. It just occurs to me that if I'm sitting and meditating and I'm watching thoughts go through my skull the thing doing the watching is seperate from the thoughts. Therefore I am not my thoughts.
So saying "Nothing is happening, stop fantasising" is me seperating myself out from my fearful thoughts and putting myself in the moment rather than the day dreams I'm having.
So the coping mechanisms/relaxation techniques, be they spiritual in and of themselves or not have produced a spiritual realisation that I find useful and therefore I lable them as spiritual.

Or I'm just insane.:D

lbb
04-02-2009, 10:08 PM
I believe any process that changes you as a person is a spiritual process. It's not about the basis of the process, it's the effect.

I'm not going to argue with you about your definitions; I'm just pretty sure you're using a different definition of "spiritual process" than most people. Other considerations aside, people can undergo processes that change them for the worse. Do you consider that a "spiritual process" also?

Ketsan
04-03-2009, 06:05 AM
I'm not going to argue with you about your definitions; I'm just pretty sure you're using a different definition of "spiritual process" than most people. Other considerations aside, people can undergo processes that change them for the worse. Do you consider that a "spiritual process" also?

Yep.

lbb
04-03-2009, 09:17 AM
Yep.

So if (for example) someone participates in a mass killing, and thereby becomes indifferent to (or even excited by) the act of chipping people to bits with a machete, that's a "spiritual process"?

Joe McParland
04-03-2009, 10:22 AM
Lots of arguing over the definition of "spiritual process," no?

Ketsan
04-03-2009, 12:35 PM
So if (for example) someone participates in a mass killing, and thereby becomes indifferent to (or even excited by) the act of chipping people to bits with a machete, that's a "spiritual process"?

Yep.

Basia Halliop
04-03-2009, 01:10 PM
So if (for example) someone participates in a mass killing, and thereby becomes indifferent to (or even excited by) the act of chipping people to bits with a machete, that's a "spiritual process"?

Funnily enough, in THAT example, I actually do feel like that's a 'spiritual' change :) (a spiritual destruction or something), while I didn't see it with the 'deep breathing to calm yourself' type examples...

But 'spiritual' is probably one of the most subjective ideas there are... I doubt it really gives much to try to define it.

John Matsushima
04-03-2009, 01:11 PM
A follow up to my first post.....training in Aikido includes not only practice in technique but in refining the spirit, the heart, the character. This is the meaning of the do. We are not just machines that execute movements on order, we are human beings first, and Aikido practicioners second. If values such as cleanliness, courtesy, and respect are not practiced in even the short time we are in the dojo, then it just isn't budo. This isn't just about "connecting to the universe",which is what many seem to believe the spiritual side of Aikido is all about, but this is what budo is - a true warrior is one of virtue. Ask any member who has served in the military, a marine, soldier, airman, or sailor how important a value such as cleanliness is in the military, and listen to what they have to say. Ask them how many hours a day they have spent cleaning, or ask them how many times they hear the words "Honor, courage, and commitment". How can we stand here and have claim to any knowledge of budo without these virtues? Virtues which are not only basic to our contemporary warriors, but which have been set forth in the light of its religious and cultural influences. To say we practice Aikido without them is to only attempt to imitate its shadow.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-03-2009, 02:52 PM
Funnily enough, in THAT example, I actually do feel like that's a 'spiritual' change :) (a spiritual destruction or something), while I didn't see it with the 'deep breathing to calm yourself' type examples...

But 'spiritual' is probably one of the most subjective ideas there are... I doubt it really gives much to try to define it.

Spirit, being a product of energy, can't be destroyed. Basic physics.

:)

Basia Halliop
04-03-2009, 03:35 PM
So people should just give up on the whole 'spiritual growth' thing, eh? :).

Although, if really you want to be anal about your analogy (which I'm sure we all do ! :) ), I could remind you that energy can be transformed from one form to another... so if spiritual destruction is accompanied by an increase of, say, 'evil' (another form of 'energy', right?), then your psychic thermodynamics remains self-consistent :).

lbb
04-03-2009, 04:21 PM
Well...this is where y'all bring out the boffer bats (or the bokken) and start whaling on me and yellling, "Mary, shut UP!" But does "spirit" have anything to do with "spirituality"? I think of "spirituality" as a connection with the divine, whether that be Allah or the kami or Jesus or the god in you. The usage of "spirit" in the martial arts, OTOH, has always given me the sense that it was a translation of a word that referred to a particular attitude and that the original had no connotations of the sacred. So, am I wrong about that?

BTW Alex: "yep". Okay. So only people who incorporate a "spiritual process" in their training can be effective in a real-life self-defense situation. By that reasoning, a genocidaire should be the best thing on legs when it comes to facing an attack, not so?

Joe McParland
04-03-2009, 04:25 PM
[...] If values such as cleanliness, courtesy, and respect are not practiced in even the short time we are in the dojo, then it just isn't budo. This isn't just about "connecting to the universe",which is what many seem to believe the spiritual side of Aikido is all about, but this is what budo is - a true warrior is one of virtue. Ask any member who has served in the military, a marine, soldier, airman, or sailor how important a value such as cleanliness is in the military, and listen to what they have to say. Ask them how many hours a day they have spent cleaning, or ask them how many times they hear the words "Honor, courage, and commitment". How can we stand here and have claim to any knowledge of budo without these virtues? Virtues which are not only basic to our contemporary warriors, but which have been set forth in the light of its religious and cultural influences. To say we practice Aikido without them is to only attempt to imitate its shadow.

While in the Army, the importance of hygiene, cleanliness, preventative maintenance, and so forth, were very much emphasized. I was also never so filthy for such extensive periods of time than when I was in the Army.

When warriors train in close quarters, we ask for good hygiene. It is also true that warriors should have no aversion to filth or anything else of this world, lest that aversion affect their ability to do what needs to be done.

There is no dilemma.

Demetrio Cereijo
04-03-2009, 04:47 PM
So people should just give up on the whole 'spiritual growth' thing, eh?

What is "spiritual growt"?

Although, if really you want to be anal about your analogy (which I'm sure we all do ! :) ), I could remind you that energy can be transformed from one form to another... so if spiritual destruction is accompanied by an increase of, say, 'evil' (another form of 'energy', right?), then your psychic thermodynamics remains self-consistent :).

Again: there's no spiritual 'destruction', Change, transformation..., maybe. Increase of 'evil' is change but the spirit is not destroyed. For that you have to die.

OTOH, what is 'good' and what is 'evil' depends on the individual (education, culture, society, religion...). Aikido is about the universe, the nature; nature is beyond human constructs like "good" and "evil".

Lyle Laizure
04-03-2009, 09:47 PM
My list was a combination of things I have experienced in going to different dojos and seminars. The dojo I go to now, is small, private, elite, snobby place where good personal hygiene is a demand. I post that after a night of beers after class. Yea, it was crude in subject. But never the less any truer. :)

WOW

Ketsan
04-03-2009, 11:02 PM
Well...this is where y'all bring out the boffer bats (or the bokken) and start whaling on me and yellling, "Mary, shut UP!" But does "spirit" have anything to do with "spirituality"? I think of "spirituality" as a connection with the divine, whether that be Allah or the kami or Jesus or the god in you. The usage of "spirit" in the martial arts, OTOH, has always given me the sense that it was a translation of a word that referred to a particular attitude and that the original had no connotations of the sacred. So, am I wrong about that?

BTW Alex: "yep". Okay. So only people who incorporate a "spiritual process" in their training can be effective in a real-life self-defense situation. By that reasoning, a genocidaire should be the best thing on legs when it comes to facing an attack, not so?

Umm........yep. Realistically I think it'd be impossible to develop a martial art without a spiritual component. All you can really do is choose whether or not your system acknowleges that training will change you and perhaps try and guide the training so that the spiritual development is positive.


By that reasoning, a genocidaire should be the best thing on legs when it comes to facing an attack, not so?

Yep. The problem is that we're talking about a psychopath and societies tend to kill psychopaths whenever possible.

Michael Douglas
04-04-2009, 10:05 AM
What is "spiritual growt"?
Scouse. Its a dialect with a perm.

lbb
04-08-2009, 01:42 PM
Umm........yep.

Except they weren't. Yes, it was a setup question, and the correct answer was "Nope".

Michael Douglas
04-09-2009, 11:03 AM
...Okay. So only people who incorporate a "spiritual process" in their training can be effective in a real-life self-defense situation. By that reasoning, a genocidaire should be the best thing on legs when it comes to facing an attack, not so?
I'll say YES too,
I'm sure a Rwandan 'genocidaire' with his machete would cope amazingly well with facing an attack whether the outcome was good or bad, y'see his 'spiritual development' thus far would make whatever horrors the attack brought about pale into insignificance considering his genocidal history.

I'm also saying 'spiritual development' isn't necessarily a good thing.

lbb
04-09-2009, 01:24 PM
I'll say YES too,
I'm sure a Rwandan 'genocidaire' with his machete would cope amazingly well with facing an attack whether the outcome was good or bad, y'see his 'spiritual development' thus far would make whatever horrors the attack brought about pale into insignificance considering his genocidal history.

In fact, far from "cop[ing] amazingly well", when faced with attacks from anyone other than unarmed and defenseless people, the Rwandan genocidaires (why the quotes?) did amazingly poorly. So much for the "spiritual process/development" argument.

Ketsan
04-09-2009, 02:12 PM
In fact, far from "cop[ing] amazingly well", when faced with attacks from anyone other than unarmed and defenseless people, the Rwandan genocidaires (why the quotes?) did amazingly poorly. So much for the "spiritual process/development" argument.

Now you're changing the subject, that subject being would someone used to killing large numbers of people by hand be bettered prepared for a fight than the average person?

lbb
04-09-2009, 05:31 PM
Now you're changing the subject, that subject being would someone used to killing large numbers of people by hand be bettered prepared for a fight than the average person?

I'm not really changing it, and the subject wasn't about whether someone used to killing large numbers of people by hand would be better prepared for a fight than the average person. It was about "spiritual process" and "spiritual development", remember?

Phil Van Treese
04-16-2009, 08:25 AM
I wouldn't allow anyone, regardless of rank, to train on my mat if they had personal hygiene issues. No excuse at all for body and/or gi odor or any other type of odor. We all want to train, not pass out because someone can't keep clean. Zoris off the mat are required, esp. going to the john!!!! Common sense has to take a role and as an instr. I have to set the example.

Guilty Spark
04-16-2009, 12:14 PM
At my dojo we're not supposed to ask for water or to use the washroom.
I find it annoying. I'm an adult, I'm 30, I'm training pretty heavily physically. I'm also paying for the classes. If I wanna take a piss I should be able to take a piss so long as I'm not disrupting the class going every 5 minutes.
If I want some water because I'm really giving it then same thing.

The explanation I got was that it's some kinda toughness training. Not taking a piss or drinking for water for an hour or two in my opinion isn't really training, it's just annoying.

But since it's not my school it's either shut up an deal with it or leave.

Grant Buhr
04-16-2009, 05:40 PM
At my dojo we're not supposed to ask for water or to use the washroom.


That's insane. By comparison, we're downright relaxed at my dojo. Good thing, too -- I need to rehydrate frequently.

Buck
04-16-2009, 06:41 PM
At my dojo we're not supposed to ask for water or to use the washroom.
I find it annoying.

The explanation I got was that it's some kinda toughness training.

I too would have to agree. That isn't good. I guess you could plan your liquid intake, and not have to pee during class, and limit dehydration. But the idea of it being tough is ridiculous. For one, dehydration can play all sorts of havoc on the body, i.e. a real big one is heart attacks, they can result from dehydration. Holding your urine can cause problems like bladder infections and damage the body in other ways too.

If you are going to the restroom don't go in bare foot and then walk on the mat. No one wants their face in urine or feces tracked in by bare feet. And if you have a bowel movement take off the gi pants so they won't touch the dirty floor, so they don't collect around the ankles on the dirty bathroom floor. No one want to have their face in feces and urine rubbed off the pants of the gi. And wash da' hands for the same reason.

JO
04-16-2009, 08:31 PM
Where in Hell (litterally) do you train. If a bathroom is so filthy you get urine and feces on your pants because they're down at your ankles, then you need to have a serious talk with whoever is in charge of cleaning it.

Rivka Gates
04-17-2009, 10:01 AM
I'm not prone to them myself, but that's not what I have been told a "panic attack" is. AFAIK a "panic attack" is a period of heightened anxiety that is sudden and that either has no cause, or is all out of proportion with whatever caused it (e.g., a panic reaction at not having enough quarters for the laundry, or something like that). It doesn't have anything to do with your response to a situation of real threat.



I am prone to them - and that's about right. And frankly for me it's less about anything spiritual and more about frankly stubbornness.

I tend to have panic attacks related to new things. I was planning on visiting a new dojo while I was visiting my parents in CA. I knew that was likely to cause panic. I built in the time before I left and stubborned out the leftover anxiety. I knew it wasn't rational. No amount of spiritual training is going to stop my body from increasing my heartrate, sending my thuoghts racing and everything else that happens.

Kristina Morris
04-18-2009, 12:53 AM
Hey Phil,

Why not include the list of offenses as part of the expectations for students? Just write it in a more polite form. Right off the bat, when someone starts training, let them know what is not tolerated. The instructor sets the rules for their dojo. Sometimes accidents do happen, but repeat offenders of body odor and dirty gi's should be sent off the mat.

Cleanliness is also part of a person's behavior pattern. Let the student know that being clean is part of the training.

If someone passed gas on me, I'd tell them loudly "You are disgusting." And then I'd walk away. I've been married 37 years and I still run from my husband. He's lethal!

Kristina

Sarah Lothmann
04-20-2009, 03:13 PM
A clean body helps foster a clean and clear mind?.... Philip, some of those were really icky! :yuck:
I wonder what George Carlin would say on the matter if he were still around! :p