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03-03-2002, 11:55 PM
Hey any of you have any experience with sadistic senseis? I have had plenty of them, when i mean sadistic, i mean it in a good endearing way(if that's possible).
For example, when Fujita Shihan sensei came and visited he did a variation of sankyo on me and said something to the equivalent of "Now let's go for a walk!" and walked me across the dojo while i was writhing in pain and then with a hearty laugh gave me one hell of a throw.
My Sensei and his family is no exception. I always remember their suwari waza kokyu ho practices where they throw you and pull you up and then throw you before you even fully get up. So it's like u're this rag doll being yanked and thrown yanked and thrown and before you know it u're panting as if u're run the marathon. And all the while they'll be laughing and barking, ' faster faster! '. I don't know what that training was for at all hahaha:).
03-04-2002, 12:23 AM
While talking to Alexey, I remembered a gem and thought it would be good to share it here too.:)
I was flipping this guy with a koto gaeshi and he counter attacked with an offendingly loud fart. I wanted to laugh until the smell hit me and I felt so sick that I didn't finish the lock.
So ma-ai doesn't solve everything;)
03-04-2002, 08:13 AM
That's not sadism, that's control.
03-07-2002, 04:49 PM
03-08-2002, 08:42 AM
There are many sensei who believe that they are well versed in the application of technique and they can show this by taking each one to its fullest limit. That would be fine if the human body never incurred injury, or had a bell that rang when it reached its limits?
I understand the over extension and application of some sensei, because they have never gotten a feeling for the human body and its response when the muscles and joints begin to reach their limits. Been there, gotten injured ... nothing but pity for your plight.
On the other hand, are you learning how to bend with the wind?
There will come a time when the situation is for real, and the pain/torture of that practice will be welcome. At some place, some time, some where ... you will encounter a violent situation. If that pain you encounter during practice is it, then thank what ever gods you curse or worship.
On the other hand again, if you have to look inside of yourself to reach that point of saying NO! ... then it had better come out of your mouth, excuse yourself, and go sit down.
It is not childish to reach your limit, know you must stop, and execute your own will. If the practice or participation of practice is physically harmful, speak up! Sensei can't read your mind?
Hopefully, as these teachers grow older they will turn pain into gentleness.
The best practice I have ever had is with older sensei's whose techniques were like a whisper touch, as fast as the eye could percieve, and flowing from beginning to end!
Why? Because, maybe, they had the same lessons you are getting now. What are you going to do with the lessons you learn, and the problems you face?
Keep talking about it, with your sensei, your friends, and sometimes strangers ... you can never tell where the answer will be found?
03-08-2002, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by shadow
....hard enough to hurt. He has also kicked other students in the groin in order to show a hole or flaw in the technique. When doing irimi-nage to me (I'm tall and lanky) he often compacts my size to the point where I feel pain and a possibility he may break my neck. I don't agree with this way of teaching and don't need it so I have stopped turning up to his classes at all.
Just wanted to share my experience with a sadistic sensei. He is a nice guy, but on the mat he is an absolute jerk.
Your Sensei sounds interesting.
03-09-2002, 02:40 AM
Well, I'm sure many members of this forum, including myself, would love to practice with this Kiwi teacher. don't forget Aikido is a martial art after all, despite what many people would like it to become. Some harsh treatment by the sensei could be beneficial, even recommendable. As a martial artist, you should accept pain as a part of the training. Now, if you personally dislike this particular teacher, or you have something against his style, fine. Just don't practice at his dojo. There is no need to criticize him in such a public manner. I'm sure not so many Kiwi teachers are teaching in Australia and many people will recognize the person you're mentioning. That's not very good manners and could reflect on you.
As for the 3rd dan Karate beginner, in my own short experience in Aikido, there is no such person as a 3rd Dan Karate "beginner". They always come with something to prove, and sometimes I've seen teachers give them a small lesson to put them in their right place. An injured elbow, wrist or knee is not uncommon in Aikido and I can't remember the last time my body was free of such injuries.
Sorry for my a little too direct reply. I hope you'll take it in a positive way.
03-09-2002, 06:52 AM
Well, in this I see a reminder that ukemi is there for a reason... admitedly, a beginner (even a 3rd dan karate beginner) may not know much ukemi, but he should know two things: to tap, and that resistence increases risk of injury--- or some dojo is not teaching its beginners basic self protection. Most serious injuries I've seen have come from uke resisting (through fear occasionally, usually through inflated ego) past the point of stupidity, coupled with a nage with limited ability or equal ego issues, and either large size or good skills.
There are chances for really big nages to injure little ukes anyway (the only thing I usually can't get ahead of in my ukemi is a tall strong nage who literally lifts me up off my feet, not too bad in say irimi nage, but hard on my shoulder in shihonage). But I am not adverse to tapping if they put me in a situation that can hurt me before I can get ahead of them (and if they don't notice the tap I usually kick them evileyes). But I doubt there was that much size difference between those two sandans. Something tells me there was more than Aikido (or a lack of Aikido) going on there.
03-09-2002, 02:46 PM
Well, you are the one who was there, so your perception of sadism may be very close to the truth...the important thing is what you've already done, if you can't learn from him, skip his classes---that solves the problem you have with him---and if no one can learn from him, he'll get the message. I hope things work out...
03-09-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by ca
But I am not adverse to tapping if they put me in a situation that can hurt me before I can get ahead of them (and if they don't notice the tap I usually kick them evileyes).
There go your trademark evil smileys again.
03-09-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by shihonage
There go your trademark evil smileys again.
Originally posted by shadow
In order to make points he often uses atemi, striking me sometimes in the kidney or another part....hard enough to hurt. He has also kicked other students in the groin in order to show a hole or flaw in the technique.
Does he had out with Seagal? Supposedly and heresay tell us that he does this on the set of his movies to make sure that the stuntmen are wearing their cups. Sheesh!
Glad to hear you bailed on that guy.
Originally posted by EdwardThere is no need to criticize him in such a public manner. I'm sure not so many Kiwi teachers are teaching in Australia and many people will recognize the person you're mentioning. That's not very good manners and could reflect on you.
Tough! Don't kick people in the nuts if you don't want people to say that you kick people in the nuts. Otherwise, expect people to talk about how you kick them in the nuts.
It's quite simple really and has nothing to do with manners.
03-26-2002, 11:33 PM
I guess we are unclear about one thing here. Kicking in the groin or wherever when the student shows an opening is not very serious as long as no harm is done. Of course if student gets serious pain or injury because of that, then it's savagery and the teacher should be denounced.
I have the feeling however that our friend here is exagerating for some reason because if what he says is true this teacher will not have any students left.
I think it's sometimes good when senseis are "sadistic" - you will really REMEMBER your mistakes when they are pointed out not only by words but with a nice atemi.
I have been walked through the class with sankyo:) or some jujitsu nikkyo thingie. Also been choked from the rear when my control was not right being punched when I had a hole in my defence and of course there's always the "please try to stand up" thing (while your hand is still in yonkyo, nikkyo etc) And when being a lame uke (not stiff and "real" enough to throw i have also encountered some atemi-based throws or controls instead of throws.
And this is good! Of course he does NEVER cause an injury this way. Just sometimes leaves you hurting a little:)
There is somewhere a thin line about that subject and when your sensei stands on the "good side" of that line... but really close to the line. Probably it'll help you learn the most.
04-05-2002, 04:36 PM
Ah yes the sadistic sensei! Many common experiences have already been pointed out in this thread (like being walked around the dojo in some sort of lock - or worse only your (previously injured -) fingers in some sort of lock :mad:
I do have a couple more: How about a sensei who also has a jujutsu background and likes to demonstrate a few grappling locks and pins.
"Oh he won't be able to move in that possition. My butt is sitting on his head!"
Yes. Thank you for pointing out the one element of this pin I was trying so hard to repress!:freaky:
Using a real sword: "Try and pull my sword!" Stupid as I am I reach for the hilt, expecting him to apply nikajo (nikyo) using the hilt of the sword (which we had practiced before). But NO!! Do you have any idea what it feels like to have a cast iron hilt rammed into your stomach hard enough to lift your feet off the mat?
Yet, all of this is all right. I am studying martial arts I need to toughen up a bit out on the streat your attacker won't ease up on you, better get used to it. But then there is the psycho-terror.
At the time I was an 9th kyu (body control? What's that?). Using wooden swords and practicing front-head strikes. My "blade" always wobbled after the strike. Sensei walks up to me stands in ffront of me: "RAISE FOR HEAD STRIKE" I raise. "Don't hit me!"... Let's just say I have no recollection of the actual strike. Somehow my blade had stopped less than 1/2 an inch from his forehead, my knees were weak for the rest of this session and I had bad dreams for at least a week after.
04-13-2002, 06:23 PM
About two years ago, one of my teachers students from years before, was back in town from out west where he was getting ready to take is test for first dan. Well muscled at about six foot three, he seemed very stiff with many of the flowing and easy leads I was trying to do without muscle for a change. I outweighed his two hundred twenty pounds by about forty five pounds but I am just under six feet in stocking feet.
We did a few falls, and it seemed like he was getting stiffer as we went on. I forget if we were doing Kokyo nage, or Irimi nage, but I started to stay something about his stiffness, and settled into a mild relaxing root into the floor to let him feel the stiffness.
Next thing I know, he puts his hip in tight and WHAM!
My teacher looks up and says to Steve,"... that was pretty good, what was that ..."
I looked up from the floor and said as I gulped back the spit from the throw ... Judo.
Thanks Steve, That was a pleasant memory ... but it was a judo throw, and you know it....
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