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dalen7
03-25-2009, 02:28 PM
I still have 3 more months to get this...that is if I want to keep to my testing schedule. :)

But Koshinage, ohhhh, the ukemi - point...Im too afraid of landing.
The guy I train with does it without second thought. (Though he is in his teens and Im in my 30s...something about being young and agile.) :)

For me it seems there is only one way to actually take proper ukemi for this...jump up in the air like a monkey and roll. Otherwise you get what I do...trying to escape the technique. :)

Some concerns and issues I have is:
a) landing on my shoulder which was hurt in my teen years weight lifting. (its extremely sensitive even doing regular ukemi)
b) I get the wind knocked out of my side sometimes on landing
c) if the above doesnt happen, then my elbow is hurt. (Trying to catch myself with my hands and arms as not to get the wind knocked out of me.

Yes...my ukemi sucks unfortunately, and Im not really sure how to get better at it unless I buy my own mats and practice day and night.

If any of you have any tips, it would be welcome and very much appreciated.

My kids, Im sure, could do it without second thought as well - especially my 4 years old. :)

Peace

dAlen

Russ Q
03-25-2009, 03:07 PM
Hi Dalen,

Koshinage fear factor! My advice would be to make sure you have a piece of nage when you go over (shoulder, obi, lapel - this depends on the attack) and make sure your hand touches the mat first upon landing (tobu ukemi style). Also, I personally think it easier for ukemi when you are doing koshinage at a decent speed. Doing it slow is more difficult than doing it fast. Of course, don't forget the ubiquitous advice "...relaaaaax...":-)

Good luck!

Russ

dalen7
03-25-2009, 03:23 PM
Thanks Russ,

Your post helps a lot - ready to give it another shot. :)
I was more approaching it like a deer 'jumping' over a car. (We all know how well that turns out. lol).

So:
1) grab Uke, and instead of jumping over, it would be more of a 'roll over'.
2) upon landing dont land on the 'side' but have the hand out before you get to the ground.
(To take off shock from the body? Thats where the relax bit comes in as I want to catch myself with my hand and forearm. Same way I got hurt when I slid on the ice this past winter...would have been great to have done some proper ukemi then.) :)

Peace

dAlen


Hi Dalen,

Koshinage fear factor! My advice would be to make sure you have a piece of nage when you go over (shoulder, obi, lapel - this depends on the attack) and make sure your hand touches the mat first upon landing (tobu ukemi style). Also, I personally think it easier for ukemi when you are doing koshinage at a decent speed. Doing it slow is more difficult than doing it fast. Of course, don't forget the ubiquitous advice "...relaaaaax...":-)

Good luck!

Russ

Marc Abrams
03-25-2009, 04:06 PM
Dalen:

A good primer to get to the point of grabbing the label and relaxing through the roll is to have somebody get down on their knees and hands with a straight back. Take the arm on your forward side (the foot that is forward) and reach over the torso and underneath towards the stomach and back towards you. Try and roll your body over his torso so that your head is actually underneath the person's stomach. You will find that you have to relax and "contour" to your roll in order to arrive at the proper destination smoothly.

Good Luck!

Marc Abrams

Jonathan
03-25-2009, 04:13 PM
Dalen:

Koshinage, when it is done well, should feel to uke rather like he/she is tripping over nage. If nage is loading you onto his/her back and then dumping you off, they aren't doing koshinage properly. When nage is throwing like this, koshinage is always rougher on uke.

I would recommend turning your head toward nage and looking at him/her as you fall over his/her back. Do NOT look at the floor.

I would also second Russ's advice about grabbing hold of nage's shoulder or lapel as you take the fall and reaching for the mat with your free hand. I use the word "reaching" on purpose, mind you, as opposed to slapping. Feel for the mat after the manner of feeling for a wall in the dark instead of just blindly whipping your hand over and down toward the ground. Doing this, I find, lessens the impact of ukemi a fair bit.

Regards,

Jon.

dalen7
03-25-2009, 04:26 PM
Dalen:

If nage is loading you onto his/her back and then dumping you off, they aren't doing koshinage properly. When nage is throwing like this, koshinage is always rougher on uke.

I would recommend turning your head toward nage and looking at him/her as you fall over his/her back. Do NOT look at the floor.

Feel for the mat after the manner of feeling for a wall in the dark instead of just blindly whipping your hand over and down toward the ground.

Jon.

Ill try to keep the first point in mind, as I know Im guilty of that.

And good tip on the reaching part, as the slapping inevitably leads to my trying to catch myself with forearm and hand. (Typically catching the elbow.)

Thanks for the tips...

dAlen

dalen7
03-25-2009, 04:27 PM
Thanks Marc, I will try this.

Peace

dAlen

Dalen:

A good primer to get to the point of grabbing the label and relaxing through the roll is to have somebody get down on their knees and hands with a straight back. Take the arm on your forward side (the foot that is forward) and reach over the torso and underneath towards the stomach and back towards you. Try and roll your body over his torso so that your head is actually underneath the person's stomach. You will find that you have to relax and "contour" to your roll in order to arrive at the proper destination smoothly.

Good Luck!

Marc Abrams

chuunen baka
03-26-2009, 04:42 AM
Some concerns and issues I have is:
a) landing on my shoulder which was hurt in my teen years weight lifting. (its extremely sensitive even doing regular ukemi)
b) I get the wind knocked out of my side sometimes on landing
c) if the above doesnt happen, then my elbow is hurt. (Trying to catch myself with my hands and arms as not to get the wind knocked out of me.

In my juijitsu days we did lots of high impact hip throws. We were taught to exhale when being thrown so you don't get winded. I think it also braces the core muscles for the impact.

You shouldn't be landing on your shoulder - that's a dislocation waiting to happen. If you look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ZsFnma8AA) you'll see how the impact is evenly spread. The 45 degree angle of the arm is important as that reduces strain on the shoulder.

NagaBaba
03-26-2009, 09:15 AM
You need a systematical preparation of your body for high flying break falls.
First step is to learn the correct shape of the body when you land. To do it, you can start with a simple roll forward, but this roll you finish slapping tatami with all you power with one hand and your knees wide open. The feet should touch the tatami in the end of the roll gently. In this form of ukemi, in the end, you don't get up, but stay flat on the tatmi. Only one shoulder and feet should be in contact with tatami.To do it, push your hips up.

Second step Marc described correctly, only when you land, you have to apply the shape of body you learned in previous step. This step you must repeat until your body is conditioned and you have no fear at all. Body inside you must become very soft to redirect as much impact as possible with flexibility.This must be practice EVERY time you are in the dojo 500 times minimum.

Third step is to do break falls by somebody who stands but has his upper body 90 degree to his legs. In this exercise you use everything you learned previously. First you start very statically, lift yourself over your partner body with your hands and go down the other side with your head as close as possible to the tatami.
After the while you can learn how to use your legs to jump over his body.

I know it is not very clear, but it should only give you a general idea. You instructor should have a system to teach high flying break falls...

Walter Martindale
03-26-2009, 12:29 PM
Jonathan and Szczepan have given good suggestions. I'd also suggest asking for some ukemi training with judo people. Although I'm 30 years out of judo practice, many of their throws are koshinage-like - and when well done they're a lot like tilting over a pivot point.
A major difference between judo throws and aikido throws, though, is that in training, aikido people usually let their uke go and they have to fend for themselves (they take the fall) and judo people usually track uke all the way to the ground because uke will do what they can to avoid landing on their back and giving up ippon. Our practice was to try to throw the opponent through the mat in part by trying to power him downwards. Ukemi had to be pretty good, or you got hurt.
I'm not suggesting you go join a judo club - but see if you can find someone to help you with some judo-like ukemi training. You learn to shape your body to distribute the shock, and the timing for an arm and leg slap to the mats to keep you from getting mashed.
HTH
Walter

Lyle Laizure
03-26-2009, 12:34 PM
Don't rush. Taking ukemi you are not prepared for will cause injury and injury will definately slow your training. Would it be so bad to test later? I'm sure that testing isn't your primary goal here though, I understand how frustrating it is when you try to get something and it eludes you for some reason. I would suggest going to your sensei and asking his/her reccomendation. Good luck.

Marc Abrams
03-26-2009, 02:14 PM
You need a systematical preparation of your body for high flying break falls.
First step is to learn the correct shape of the body when you land. To do it, you can start with a simple roll forward, but this roll you finish slapping tatami with all you power with one hand and your knees wide open. The feet should touch the tatami in the end of the roll gently. In this form of ukemi, in the end, you don't get up, but stay flat on the tatmi. Only one shoulder and feet should be in contact with tatami.To do it, push your hips up.

Second step Marc described correctly, only when you land, you have to apply the shape of body you learned in previous step. This step you must repeat until your body is conditioned and you have no fear at all. Body inside you must become very soft to redirect as much impact as possible with flexibility.This must be practice EVERY time you are in the dojo 500 times minimum.

Third step is to do break falls by somebody who stands but has his upper body 90 degree to his legs. In this exercise you use everything you learned previously. First you start very statically, lift yourself over your partner body with your hands and go down the other side with your head as close as possible to the tatami.
After the while you can learn how to use your legs to jump over his body.

I know it is not very clear, but it should only give you a general idea. You instructor should have a system to teach high flying break falls...

Szczepan makes some good points! I sometimes approach things from the perspective of rectum side first :D By that I mean that I like to teach the end of the roll first and then work my way up. I actually start with people starting on their backs and getting comfortable with the ground. Most of the problems are from deep-seated fear of hitting the ground. This fear is literally encapsulated into our body/muscle memory. It has been my experience that when people can learn to "love" the ground and their bodies no longer tense up with old fear-based responses, that moving to more complex ukemi becomes a lot easier. When the person starts to bodily react with fear again, I have them repeat the process (on a much quicker time frame each time) from the ground up again. I believe in helping the body to "rewire" the fear out of itself.

Marc Abrams

eyrie
03-26-2009, 05:58 PM
I agree with Marc... both on rewiring (and short-circuiting) the instinctive fear-based response, and a "bottom-up" approach.

I'd also start with the end position on the ground, then work up to side-breakfalls from sitting, squatting, and then standing.

raul rodrigo
03-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Ellis Amdur has an Ukemi dvd that you might find helpful. Try http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy.html.



R

Eva Antonia
03-27-2009, 03:18 AM
Hi Dalen,

I thought when you test you'd throw uke for koshi nage and not vice versa (much more difficult in my opinion...)?
Anyway, in Belgium koshi nage comes compulsorily only at 1st kyu, which is reassuring because it leaves some time to learn it conveniently.

As to the breakfall I suppose it's intimidating because you cannot really see or imagine the direction where you fall. So either you are not afraid and do it dynamically and just land safely before you are even aware of having been thrown, or you learn it step by step.

In our club, we do a two-person exercise to train tobu ukemi. You stand in ai hanmi kata te dori, then you turn your stomach to the arm of your partner and look down. You try to touch your knees with your head, and try to reach with your free arm over your shoulder to the floor. In the last moment you withdraw the knee of your front leg, and then you land safely and without any sound on the mat (just write "tobu ukemi" or "ushiro otoshi" in you tube, and you find lots of lessons how to learn it progressively).

Besides videos and exercises etc - there are lots of falls on which you can do tobu ukemi quite easily. It works quite easily on kote gaeshi and kaiten nage. It works on shiho nage and kokyu nage even if it's not exactly the same way as you'd do it on koshi nage.

Nearest to the fall you experience when been thrown in koshi nage is the breakfall you do when thrown a certain way in tenshi nage. If it's done slowly, then you do a backwards roll. But you can also turn a bit and to mae ukemi. If you get acquainted to mae ukemi on tenshi nage, tori can just, when advancing and making you fall, step a bit behind you so that you have to fall over his hips (and he can, just for the fun of it, make a circular movement with his upper arm to turn your head). This last version is NEARLY like the fall on koshi nage, and you could ask someone to vary his tenshi nage successively until you do that fall. Once it works, it also works on koshi nage.

Long text for 4th kyu...but as falls are the only thing I have the feeling to do conveniently, I took the liberty to write what I know.

Wish you much luck,

Eva

dalen7
03-27-2009, 05:08 AM
First, thank you all for your detailed and quite helpful responses.

In my juijitsu days we did lots of high impact hip throws. We were taught to exhale when being thrown so you don't get winded. I think it also braces the core muscles for the impact.

The 45 degree angle of the arm is important as that reduces strain on the shoulder.

Thanks Alastair, I will try to keep the breathing in mind the next time. Makes perfect sense actually now you mention it. - As for the angle, something I have to get a better feel of for sure.

You need a systematical preparation of your body for high flying break falls.

I know it is not very clear, but it should only give you a general idea. You instructor should have a system to teach high flying break falls...

Szczepan, thanks for the detailed description - this goes a long way in helping me better understand the technique. {we really dont practice ukemi much to be honest with you.}

I'd also suggest asking for some ukemi training with judo people.
Walter

Walter, you have an excellent point - and if we had Judo here I probably would sign up. Our Exam Instructor (we see twice a year) is proficient in Judo...would be nice to get some of that knowledge passed down. :)

Don't rush. Taking ukemi you are not prepared for will cause injury and injury will definately slow your training. Would it be so bad to test later? I'm sure that testing isn't your primary goal here though...Good luck.

True, I spent last night in, involuntary, tears from pain in my neck & spine. It acts up sometimes from a car accident I had a few years back. - Koshinage hasnt helped it. (And Im sure some would question my even trying to attempt the technique.)

As far as testing, its just a personal thing with me of goals I have set for myself and where I feel I should be at. Im not sure how much longer I will live in Hungary and wanted to get a basic foundation for the feel of why Aikido works and how it works before I move on...so far Im very mixed at this. - As mentioned before I have the disposition of a Thai fighter, but Aikido has been both a physical & spiritual challenge, so to speak, for me. (Again, I have chosen to pursue it from a philosophical aspect as well.)

Thanks for the best wishes.

I believe in helping the body to "rewire" the fear out of itself.

Marc Abrams

Yes, and I have a lot of fear unfortunately - this fear of the physical realm reflects that deeper within I suppose. - {Time to listen to some more Eckhart Tolle. :D

Thanks again for your reply Marc.


I'd also start with the end position on the ground, then work up to side-breakfalls from sitting, squatting, and then standing.

Ignatius, I could benefit from this for sure. My main issue is not having pads to practice ukemi at home as we dont practice it much in the dojo. {That is exercises concentrating on correct form and landing.}
Though I have a video tape I did of my teacher doing basic Ukemi...so I have a better grasp of what that should look like. Maybe I can come up with something creative as far as practice is concerned. :)

Ellis Amdur has an Ukemi dvd that you might find helpful. Try http://www.ellisamdur.com/buy.html.

R

Ill have a look, thanks Raul.

Hi Dalen,

I thought when you test you'd throw uke for koshi nage and not vice versa (much more difficult in my opinion...)?
Anyway, in Belgium koshi nage comes compulsorily only at 1st kyu, which is reassuring because it leaves some time to learn it conveniently.

Long text for 4th kyu...but as falls are the only thing I have the feeling to do conveniently, I took the liberty to write what I know.

Wish you much luck,

Eva

Hello Eva,

No problems, Im always open to advice...not limited by what level you may be at. :)
{Besides, it seems we are both at the same level - unfortunately Koshinage is for our 3rd kyu test, which surprised me a bit...been at this Aikido bit for 2 years come June. :) }

Thanks for your post. {And for everyone else who responded}

Peace

dAlen

Nafis Zahir
03-27-2009, 11:17 PM
Dalen, see if you can find someone who can help you and try these steps.

1) Have the person do koshinage to you, but let them balance you on their back. You should have your body somewhat stiff, meaning not hanging on them with a limp body like a fireman's carry. This will help you get use to the height. This fall is easy to take because you have a whole person as your platform.

2) Next, have the person slowly take you over, but not actually throw you. Have them place your hand on the floor and allow you to "roll" down to the floor and down your side. Obviously this is not the free form koshi throw, but the one where your hand is being held.

3) As you get use to that, have the person slowly start to take you over and keep you hand further away from the mat. As your hand gets further away from the mat, place your other arm either around their waist or grab onto the gi and some point. When you start to do that, ask the person to let your other go as you go over, and then reach for the mat as soon as possible. This will absorb the shock and make your fall a lot softer.

I hope that you can visualize this and that it helps you. Other than that, just try and relax.

dalen7
03-28-2009, 12:04 AM
Dalen, see if you can find someone who can help you and try these steps.

I hope that you can visualize this and that it helps you. Other than that, just try and relax.

Thanks Nafis for the good visualization walk through...I appreciate the tip. :)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7
03-30-2009, 01:50 PM
Update:

Well, today we didnt do Koshinage...
However, we did practice taking Ukemi by rolling over a flat stool.

I specifically tried the reaching out with my hand to touch the mat first, and... unbelievable the difference it makes.

Dont know why, but in my mind it just always seemed that I would have to catch myself with my forearm and hand, etc.
But by reaching and touching the mat with my hand, the rest of the fall was like nothing. (Now, grant it, this was not with koshinage, but jumping over a stool has given me similar issues.)

Its always nice when these things come together, and I appreciate everyones response here.

Peace

dAlen

Nafis Zahir
03-31-2009, 11:18 PM
Update:

Well, today we didnt do Koshinage...
However, we did practice taking Ukemi by rolling over a flat stool.

I specifically tried the reaching out with my hand to touch the mat first, and... unbelievable the difference it makes.

Dont know why, but in my mind it just always seemed that I would have to catch myself with my forearm and hand, etc.
But by reaching and touching the mat with my hand, the rest of the fall was like nothing. (Now, grant it, this was not with koshinage, but jumping over a stool has given me similar issues.)

Its always nice when these things come together, and I appreciate everyones response here.

Peace

dAlen

I'm glad that it is working out for you. As time goes on, it'll become almost second nature. There will be times that you may be thrown so quickly and with such force that you don't have time to reach for the mat so early. But as long as you keep trying to do it that way, if it ever happens, you'll hardly notice the difference. Now take the feeling you have rolling over the stool and keep that same feeling as you get up higher and higher. Remember, koshinage allows you to use the nage's body as a platform. So you'll be "rolling" over a person as opposed to a stool. Keep us updated.

Aikibu
03-31-2009, 11:46 PM
Everyone has given you excellent points Dalen and the only experiance the I can add is the more you pratice Ukemi the quicker your fear should disappear....

Try to do the exercises at a quick pace... Your fear has a tendency to make your body rigid and if you can get a few rolls out of the way before class starts it may help stop you from thinking about it too much... I try to do Koshinage towards the end of practice when the body is more relaxed and your mind is better focused on execution...

William Hazen

dalen7
04-01-2009, 02:14 PM
... the only experiance the I can add is the more you pratice Ukemi the quicker your fear should disappear....

Try to do the exercises at a quick pace... Your fear has a tendency to make your body rigid...

William Hazen

There will be times that you may be thrown so quickly and with such force that you don't have time to reach for the mat so early.

heheh...got a story about the above and speed.

Today I was in the neighboring city practicing Aikido at our satellite dojo, and the instructor there took me, and quickly had me on his back and flipped me over...

What did I do? The cat imitation. :)

The shear quickness of his movement took me by surprise, and like a cat, I tried to land on "all four legs". - landed on my forearm and hand, the one that was supposed to grab his gi, luckily no injury and I got right back up. (Basically I let go of his gi and tried to catch myself as my feet were in the air. Typically my feet are somewhat closer to the ground which is a bit more reassuring.)

However, I tried it again, same speed, and landed, ok.

It was a weird feeling being thrown so high...again, I was much like a cat who likes to have its legs firmly on the ground, which messed me up. But all this, in retrospect, drove home the point of needing to contour my roll, etc.

Again, many thanks to all of you...this move seems to be coming together. (Theres not anything else like this in Aikido is there...) :D

Peace

dAlen

bkedelen
04-01-2009, 02:35 PM
I am glad you have been working this out. I would like to suggest looking up the Turkish Get-Up and giving it a shot. The Turkish Get-Up is a movement which is extremely relevant to ukemi as well as generally stabilizing the shoulder and elbow structure. If you were to develop, for example, a 95lb bodyweight Turkish Get-Up, your shoulder and elbow problems would likely be at an end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AWdpfbhCPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_JlNGC1kk0

Michael Douglas
04-01-2009, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the vid Benjamin, but what's a "95lb bodyweight" Turkish Get-Up ... the bloke with the disturbingly gaping shorts had a kettlebell.

dalen7
04-02-2009, 01:27 AM
I am glad you have been working this out. I would like to suggest looking up the Turkish Get-Up and giving it a shot. The Turkish Get-Up is a movement which is extremely relevant to ukemi as well as generally stabilizing the shoulder and elbow structure. If you were to develop, for example, a 95lb bodyweight Turkish Get-Up, your shoulder and elbow problems would likely be at an end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AWdpfbhCPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_JlNGC1kk0

Thats pretty cool what he did with his wife... :)

Peace

dAlen

Rodger
04-02-2009, 05:52 AM
I still have 3 more months to get this...that is if I want to keep to my testing schedule.

My advice would be forget about a testing schedule. Enjoy the process and everything will take care of it's self.

It's a long journey if you only concentrate on the end you will miss all the scenery along the way.

dalen7
04-02-2009, 12:51 PM
My advice would be forget about a testing schedule. Enjoy the process and everything will take care of it's self.

It's a long journey if you only concentrate on the end you will miss all the scenery along the way.

Thanks, and I understand the point...but its just my own personal goal that I have set up for various reasons. :)

I have gone from training twice a week to 4 times a week. (Thanks for the new opportunity to train in the satellite dojo in the next city.)

My main goal is simply to get as far as I can in truly understanding the hows, whys, and why nots of Aikido before I leave this country.
(Truth, that time may not be far off, even if its a couple more years.)

When I move I want to be confident and what I have learned here, so that whatever I do once I leave will make for a smooth transition. I want what I learn here to stand on its own, so to speak.

The testing is just a mile stone marker, that I have set up, to realistically keep me on track to achieve this goal I have set up.
I have in my mind what I expect from each of the ranks that I test for...which may be a bit different than others. (Part of this is amazing learning in a language I truly cannot communicate fluently in...Hungarian.)

I have learned quite a bit about myself, ego, tenseness, etc.
This has been one introspective road for me, that i would not have had with another martial art.

Fact is, Aikido is far from what I naturally gravitate toward, and has been the most challenging, yet rewarding in terms of 'inner growth'.
My wife actually chose it, I had her look at WingChun, Thai Box, etc., and wanted to see what she thought, and Aikido appealed to her more. (Which may seem logical for a lady, as typically they are not into violent sports and like the idea of harmony, spirituality, etc.)

So my wife got me in Aikido and I have made it my goal to get something out of it while here in Hungary...again, more than just something, but a strong enough foundation that I can weave my way around all the techniques that are within my testing schedule. :)

Sorry for the lengthy post...just thought I would share. :D

peace

dAlen

Ron Tisdale
04-02-2009, 03:09 PM
Hey Dalen, no need to explain having a goal. I hope you achieve it!

B,
R

dalen7
04-02-2009, 06:53 PM
Hey Dalen, no need to explain having a goal. I hope you achieve it!

B,
R

Thanks Ron! :)

Peace

dAlen

bkedelen
04-03-2009, 11:52 PM
I was going to say 3/4 bodyweight, but I thought better of it and tried to say 95lb.

Tim Ruijs
05-13-2009, 02:28 AM
Hi Dalen
Koshinage is actually not that hard. No pun intended.
One of the previous posters describes the exercise with a partner on all fours. Practise that before attempting koshinage. It learns your body how to behave, how to turn.

Point of warning: never ever extend your arm and try to roll. Also do not do breakfall with your other arm. Injuries can happen quite easily and cause permanent damage to shoulder ligaments. Unfortenately, I have witnessed such an event and the guy involved tore three ligaments :uch:

As your partner flips you over, keep firm grip with your front arm around your partners arm, kick your back leg over yourself. Once turned over try to make contact with your feet first (front of your feet, not heel). You can easily practise this when your partner slowly flips you over. You will not fall hard at all. You'll find that you can control much of the throw.

Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later:)

safe practise

dalen7
05-26-2009, 03:36 PM
Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later:)

safe practise

thanks for the post...we will have to see how all this pans out.
The one guy I practice with basically loads me on his back and its just so strange to be high up flipping over for me. lol

As for kotegaeshi free fall, that is something i would be interested in getting more familiar with, as its not as 'high' as koshinage, but I suppose from what your saying dont let that deceive me as its a bit more tricky than koshinage. :)

Im a bit confused about landing on feet first as it seems to go against how I currently understand things. [dont get me wrong, Im trying to picture it.]

I have seen koshinage done with another person where its closer to the ground and not loaded up high on the back. [technically your not supposed to load on the back how I understand it.]

Either way, Im trying to work through this, got a better hand of it, but honestly, its not second nature yet, and Im by far not comfortable...Im still landing improperly on my forearm despite trying to reach out...habit I suppose. :)

Practice, practice, and more practice. :)

Peace

dAlen

Tim Ruijs
05-27-2009, 03:12 AM
The height difference really is not an issue :D

The big difference between the both is that koshinage allows you to stay close to tori (the turning point is automatically close to your center). Little effort/technique is required on your side to roll and fall.

In kote gaeshi the turning point is your wrist and you will have to throw your body around it yourself. This takes much initiative and more technique to do in a controlled manner. You can safely learn to get control over your body turn doing koshinage. :) So, in order to safely practise start with koshinage until you feel comfortable and more importantly you feel you have control over your body turn and fall.

It is all about learning how to control/turn your body. And doing that safely.;)
Once you get the hang of it, it is awesome to 'get thrown' in koshinage and be on your feet waiting for more, much to tori's surprise :D

dalen7
05-27-2009, 07:32 AM
Once you get the hang of it, it is awesome to 'get thrown' in koshinage and be on your feet waiting for more, much to tori's surprise :D

If your ever in Hungary, stop by...your enthusiasm for something Im petrified of has sparked my interest. :)
Seriously, its good to see that it is possible to not only learn the technique but have fun at it. [suppose thats when you actually really have learned it]

Something that has kind of thrown me a bit, speaking of all this ukemi stuff, is my basic Mae ukemi. Somewhere in there, in trying to perfect my role, I now always roll and land at an angle...that is I go to do Mae ukemi and instead of landing directly in front my body shifts and I land diagonally to where I started...quite frustrating, especially when you see everyone else doing it effortlessly around you. [and embarrassing after 2 years...though good to let the ego suffer. lol] :)

Its like when my feet are in the air, my legs have no control and flop me to one side, best way to describe it.

Anyway, if you have any thoughts on this, I would appreciate it. :)

Peace

dAlen

dalen7
05-27-2009, 07:35 AM
Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later:)

safe practise

one other question...besides the effect [the show] of flipping oneself with kote gaeshi, is there a true benefit to this particular move. Im sure it goes best with ura, but still not convinced if you were on the pavement if you wouldnt just do what typically is done and just 'lay down' with it, for lack of a better term. :)

Peace

dAlen

Ron Tisdale
05-27-2009, 08:25 AM
Hi Dalen, it depends on the distance you have to travel. If the kuzushi point is close and directly behind you, you can just sit down on your butt, no issues.

But...if the kuzushi point is out in front of you, and shite is stepping or turning away, you will have more distance to cover...a high front fall may be your only option. Not all styles do that kind of throw for kotegaeshi however...so your milage may vary.

Best,
Ron (wait until someone does kotegaeshi combined with koshinage...now THAT will be a trip... :D)

dalen7
05-27-2009, 08:36 AM
(wait until someone does kotegaeshi combined with koshinage...now THAT will be a trip... :D)

I can only imagine! :)

- dAlen

p.s. that does clarify it for me...so used to doing things at moderate speed which gives uke time to adjust and just sit, vs. full speed where they would be forced to take an alternate route, so to speak. :)

Ron Tisdale
05-27-2009, 08:52 AM
Sometimes it's the speed that gets you, sometimes it's the distance, and sometimes it's both! Even if the kuzushi is to the rear, if shite cross steps all the way behind, the distance may be too far for you to get your butt down. The other thing that happens sometimes is that to reverse the throw, it is often good to turn into it, even when shite isn't requiring that movement. Turn into shite and strike, turn into shite and step behind for iriminage, etc. If you are turning in to reverse the throw, and shite is good, you still get thrown, but over your own hand, so to speak.

Best,
Ron

Nick
05-27-2009, 03:20 PM
Another way to think about it is to build up slowly...

In my dojo we would have people practice sutemi by having nage hold uke's hand in a kotegaeshi, and uke would use that as a fulcrum upon which to jump over. If that's too much, there are ground sutemi drills which anyone familiar with judo could teach you, but as your comfort level increases, so too will your relaxation which will actually help all of that along.

But, at the end of the day, it just comes down to doing it. You might get hurt-- but you might trip walking down the street and roll your ankle. I still remember many moons ago, when I was too terrified to try a full sutemi. In a randori, someone koshi'd me, and I went over and landed without a problem.

I then proceeded to spend the next 30 seconds with jaw agape wondering what the hell had just happened, then I ran back in for more.

Start small, and work your way up. Then, when you're ready, it'll happen whether you think it should or not.

Hope this helps,
Nick

dalen7
05-28-2009, 03:04 AM
Start small, and work your way up. Then, when you're ready, it'll happen whether you think it should or not.

Hope this helps,
Nick

It does help...thanks Nick. :)

Peace

dAlen

Tim Ruijs
06-02-2009, 04:20 AM
one other question...besides the effect [the show] of flipping oneself with kote gaeshi, is there a true benefit to this particular move. Im sure it goes best with ura, but still not convinced if you were on the pavement if you wouldnt just do what typically is done and just 'lay down' with it, for lack of a better term. :)

Peace

dAlen

In Aikido ukemi is an escape. At least in our style this is how we approach it. When asked for its effectiveness, you step away from practise and towards actual combat.
Whereas nage allows tori some room to execute his/her technique, in combat he would not :D
So in case tori applies much control in the lock and forces nage down, it is up to nage to decide what to do. Fall down on your back and run all different kinds of risk (kicked in the face, break shoulder) or try and get out of the lock by flipping his body.
The latter gives nage another change...hopefully.

We would opt for the latter ;)

In practise however, think budo. Protect yourself mentally and physically. So in order to practise free fall, practise it safe and at your pace.

My teacher has tried to throw me in free fall with kote gaeshi and i simply rolled off backwards. Until I realised we were on the beach taking pictures :D Then I looks better to do a free fall :rolleyes:

By the way: Hungary, I never been there, let alone practised Aikido there. Who knows what the future will bring? Years ago my teacher told me to start a dojo, perhaps he'll ask me to go to Hungary any time soon ;)

Jonathan
06-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Either way, Im trying to work through this, got a better hand of it, but honestly, its not second nature yet, and Im by far not comfortable...Im still landing improperly on my forearm despite trying to reach out...habit I suppose.

Practice, practice, and more practice.

Usually, when I've seen my students landing on their elbows from a high breakfall it is because they are not allowing their body to relax while in the air. When I say relax I don't mean become noodly. You should be extending your energy outward as you fall, but without significant muscular tension. If you are tense as you fall, the force of nage's movements will not be dissipated by your ukemi and so you may over-rotate and land on your elbow (and sometimes on the point of your hip as well). Think of draping yourself over nage or winding yourself around nage's body during the throw; look at nage and reach for the floor with your free arm. And, as you say, practice, practice, practice.

Take 'er easy!

Jon.

ninjaqutie
06-02-2009, 03:50 PM
We used to do this throw in my aikijitsu class. I haven't gotten into it in my aikido class yet as I am a new person. First thing is first, your partner should be able to support your weight and lower you with a fair amount of control if they know what they are doing. Your main goal is to relax (despite your instincts). :D

When we worked with people who weren't ready for a hip throw yet, we would bring them down and around our hips. In other words, instead of the person basically leaning straigh forward (more or less), if they take their right should to left knee (if you are going over their right hip) then it will bring you more around their hip instead of over it. It is a slightly different feeling, but it may be enough to gradually allow you to build up your confidence. As you get more comfy with that, then they can add more and more hip until you are getting your pilots license. ;) Best of luck!

dalen7
06-03-2009, 01:59 AM
Thanks Tim, Johnathan, & Ashely for the comments. :)
Took another class recently at the neighboring [daughter] dojo where I get to practice Koshinage.

The instructor there had me jumping over this stackable bench type of thing used in gymnastics...he kept stacking it up, then had someone lay on it for me to go over...etc.

I got a bit more comfortable with that, then I did koshinage with him.
What seemed to help, and this is a bit odd from how I understood it...but when I landed on my side at the same time I was fine. [arm, side, legs, etc all hit same moment.]

We then proceeded do Koshinage one on one, being thrown from high. The only issue I encountered was that he said I was throwing myself to far away, and that I needed to land right beside Tori. When I did this, it was more like grabbing Toris gi and rolling over his back and really only giving a little push up to get my body to flip over itself as they rolled me over their back.

Either way I have to say its the first time I have done it without any pain...I suppose I said I got it before, truth is I have not had the opportunity to practice this move since the last time I mentioned. My practice partner had to stop Aikido classes due to work, and there are not really any suitable people at the 'daughter dojo' to practice this particular technique with as everyone is either not ranked or at 6th kyu. [though he tried to prep one 6th kyu to act as Tori...]

Again, thanks for all the feedback, suppose I will have to try to get as much practice as i can on this technique, I really wish our main dojo would cover it, but our space is small until the end of the month as our main place gets renovated. [cause I noticed the obvious difference in my comfort level in the gap that there was between practicing this move...but Im hoping a full class of Koshinage sticks with me to some degree.]

Had my two fingers have the skin come off of them...didnt notice till I was in seize and saw blood. [too focused on what I was doing.]
It could have been from to much rubbing on the hard gi when doing koshinage [as my left hand did not feel the same strength and control as the right], or it could have been the toris fingernails grazing my hand in jiu-waza afterwards, which i did recall he did - just didnt realize it did that much damage as to have my fingers swell up the next day... :)

Anyway...

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
A shout out [hello] to the guys/gal in my dojo now that I know you guys have found Aikiweb - and my post... ;)

ninjaqutie
06-03-2009, 10:34 AM
Sounds like you are getting the hang of it bit by bit. I takes time to get comfortable with these things. I haven't been seriously thrown in 3 years, so I am sure that when I get to these techniques in aikido, I will be rusty myself!

shakou
06-05-2009, 07:46 AM
Hi Dalen
Koshinage is actually not that hard. No pun intended.
One of the previous posters describes the exercise with a partner on all fours. Practise that before attempting koshinage. It learns your body how to behave, how to turn.

Point of warning: never ever extend your arm and try to roll. Also do not do breakfall with your other arm. Injuries can happen quite easily and cause permanent damage to shoulder ligaments. Unfortenately, I have witnessed such an event and the guy involved tore three ligaments :uch:

As your partner flips you over, keep firm grip with your front arm around your partners arm, kick your back leg over yourself. Once turned over try to make contact with your feet first (front of your feet, not heel). You can easily practise this when your partner slowly flips you over. You will not fall hard at all. You'll find that you can control much of the throw.

Freefall with kote gaeshi (or shiho nage) will prove much more of a challenge...but that's not until later:)

safe practise

This was going to be my point dAlen, we are taught that grabbing on is ok but when the fall comes then break with your feet.... One point on this is when your legs hit the ground, try to spread them scissor fashion as when the impact comes it creates a very nasty crushing action on your balls if your legs are together:grr: , pretty much the type of thing that has a very quick learning curve... Good luck man

Kris

mari
06-15-2009, 12:55 PM
And when you think you've practiced by yourself enough, get someone higher ranked, whom you trust, to throw you around with proper speed :) Then tweak your ukemi until you are totally comfortable taking the fall..
I still don't like koshinage from people that clearly are not comfortable with the technique but still want to finish with a throw and load me up high on their back and try to push the throw.. that's an injury waiting to happen on both sides.

Daniel Blanco
06-17-2009, 08:05 PM
Hi Dalen, the only advice I can give is to relax into the throw close your eyes if you have to, dont fight or resist,just go with it, as soon as you feel the mat with any part of your body slap out quick, this will give you a even comfortable fall,hope this hepls

Daniel Blanco
06-17-2009, 08:06 PM
hope this helps

dalen7
07-08-2009, 10:53 AM
Thank you Kris, Mariya, & Daniel for your comments.
Apologies for not answering sooner - have been off the board awhile it seems.

Everyone who has contributed to this thread has more than helped as far as Koshinage is concerned. [My test is this weekend, so we will see how it goes!] lol

Im actually more comfortable with the move now, but its one of those moves that would definitely benefit by having more ukes [different sizes] to practice the variations of the move on. :)

Hardest part is we have been in a smaller place the past few months due to renovations to the gym where we train... so practice has had its limitations. ;)

Again, Thanks!

Peace,

Dalen

ninjaqutie
07-08-2009, 11:14 AM
Good luck on your test!

dalen7
07-08-2009, 11:29 AM
Good luck on your test!

Thanks Ashley! :)
- Im doing some last minute cramming, watching videos - tossing the kids...gently of course. :)

Peace,

dAlen

dalen7
07-11-2009, 06:43 AM
thanks guys... passed my 3rd kyu exam & didnt have any issues with Koshinage! :)

Peace

dAlen

Max Hoskins
07-12-2009, 12:24 AM
thanks guys... passed my 3rd kyu exam & didnt have any issues with Koshinage! :)

Peace

dAlen

Did you ever have any doubt...???:D

Congrats,

Max

dalen7
07-13-2009, 01:50 PM
Did you ever have any doubt...???:D

Congrats,

Max

Thanks Max... :)
[yeah, got over my fear of flying... for the most part... ] :D

Peace

dAlen