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dps
03-24-2009, 10:01 AM
Which Aikido technique would be your first choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

Which Aikido technique would be your second choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

David

Flintstone
03-24-2009, 10:28 AM
Taisabaki + Atemi

ChrisHein
03-24-2009, 11:26 AM
That question is almost impossible to answer.

Aikido's techniques link together very well. Because of this, it's hard to separate them.

For example, If I'm trying to take a weapon out of someones hand, kotegaishi will almost certainly come up. It's one of Aikido's higher percentage techniques. However to thwart my kotegaishi, the guy with the knife will very likely straighten his arm, this sets up a very nice rokyo, if he bends his arm from there to stop my rokyo attempt we get a nice nikyo set up, however I was suppose to limit my technique to one.

None of Aikido's techniques really stand out on their own in my opinion, but work really well together as a balanced machine. It's like asking if you could only have one part of a car which one would you pick. Well the engine would be nice, but it's kind of useless with out the rest of the car around it.

If I could only learn one unarmed technique to defend myself, I'd learn a Thai round kick. It's powerful, long ranged, and shocking when it hits you.

dps
03-24-2009, 11:41 AM
That question is almost impossible to answer.

Aikido's techniques link together very well. Because of this, it's hard to separate them.

For example, If I'm trying to take a weapon out of someones hand, kotegaishi will almost certainly come up. It's one of Aikido's higher percentage techniques. However to thwart my kotegaishi, the guy with the knife will very likely straighten his arm, this sets up a very nice rokyo, if he bends his arm from there to stop my rokyo attempt we get a nice nikyo set up, however I was suppose to limit my technique to one.

None of Aikido's techniques really stand out on their own in my opinion, but work really well together as a balanced machine. It's like asking if you could only have one part of a car which one would you pick. Well the engine would be nice, but it's kind of useless with out the rest of the car around it.

If I could only learn one unarmed technique to defend myself, I'd learn a Thai round kick. It's powerful, long ranged, and shocking when it hits you.

Ok but which two Aikido techniques( ikkyo, nikkyo shomenate, etc) would you want to know best for self defense.

Thank You

David

Mark Freeman
03-24-2009, 12:36 PM
1st choice - anything that works

2nd choice - anything that works

The 1st choice may well be to use words - they can be effective, withdrawing may also be considered. Aikido techniques? maybe. I dont see aikido as a bunch of techniques to be applied in a "if the attacker does this you do that", rather a mind/body/spirit state that if achieved puts you into an optimum state to deal with whatever life dishes up.

regards,

mark

ChrisHein
03-24-2009, 06:24 PM
Hey David,
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but really, that question is almost impossible for me to answer.

If I had to pick one technique, that I thought was the most applicable to real life self defense. I'd pick katate dori.

I know that seems like a strange choice, but here's why. If someone really wishes to do me harm, they are not going to punch, kick or wrestle me. They are going to try and stab, shoot, or club me to death. If they are going to attempt that, my best chance is to close the distance and control the weapon, katate dori, is very very useful for this.

If they are not serious about hurting me, and they want to simply "beat me up", due to ego, momentary anger, or achieving social status. Their real desire is not to cripple or kill me, so the actual danger is less. However if they are willing to use a weapon to take my life, I want to have the ability to control that weapon.

Second choice would be Gyakute dori, same reason.

dps
03-24-2009, 07:30 PM
Hey David,
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but really, that question is almost impossible for me to answer.

If I had to pick one technique, that I thought was the most applicable to real life self defense. I'd pick katate dori.

I know that seems like a strange choice, but here's why. If someone really wishes to do me harm, they are not going to punch, kick or wrestle me. They are going to try and stab, shoot, or club me to death. If they are going to attempt that, my best chance is to close the distance and control the weapon, katate dori, is very very useful for this.

If they are not serious about hurting me, and they want to simply "beat me up", due to ego, momentary anger, or achieving social status. Their real desire is not to cripple or kill me, so the actual danger is less. However if they are willing to use a weapon to take my life, I want to have the ability to control that weapon.

Second choice would be Gyakute dori, same reason.

Chris,

I didn't think that you were trying to be a jerk.

I understand what you and Mark mean, I just wanted a straight forward answer wihout any philosophy of why or why not. Thanks.

My picks would be shomen ate and shiho nage.

David

Ketsan
03-24-2009, 07:59 PM
Which Aikido technique would be your first choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

Which Aikido technique would be your second choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

David

Something from aiki-ken, with a live blade.

Carsten Möllering
03-25-2009, 03:18 AM
Hi
I just wanted a straight forward answer wihout any philosophy of why or why not.
I think there is no straight forward answer to your question.

atemi + tai sabaki is the answer I like best.

My picks would be shomen ate and shiho nage.I don't know Shodokan Aikido but does shomen ate work when attacked from behind?
Does Shiho nage work if you don't get an arm?

I experienced that Aikido looks quite different when used in a real self defence situation.

@ Chris Hein:

katate dori and gyakute dori don't describe techniques but are attacks. Can you please esplain me your thoughts?

Carsten

Abasan
03-25-2009, 03:40 AM
Irimi, Ikkyo.

Dazzler
03-25-2009, 05:57 AM
I absolutely would not even think technique.

Think principles.

Irimi.

Atemi.

Or even better maai....don't even be there.

dps
03-25-2009, 08:01 AM
I absolutely would not even think technique.

Think principles.

Irimi.

Atemi.

Or even better maai....don't even be there.

Which two techniques do you think best represents these principles?

David

Dazzler
03-25-2009, 08:17 AM
Which two techniques do you think best represents these principles?

David

From my perspective, All techniques. If any technique is devoid of these principles then it will not be Aikido.

Of course atemi may not always be deployed in training - but opportunity to do so will exist.

Within my training techniques are simply a means to an end - they are tools to practice Aikido.

This is why I believe many Aikido "techniques" can be found in other arts yet these arts are not Aikido.

Others may hold a different view.

Regards

D

Demetrio Cereijo
03-25-2009, 10:46 AM
Which two techniques do you think best represents these principles?

Irimi & Atemi?

IMHO:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8660/dibujolje.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dibujolje.jpg)

The classical Aikido clinch + headbutt.

ChrisHein
03-25-2009, 10:56 AM
Hi

@ Chris Hein:

katate dori and gyakute dori don't describe techniques but are attacks. Can you please esplain me your thoughts?

Carsten

"Attacks" are techniques as well. If you're not training the uke side like you train the nage side, you're missing half of what Aikido has to offer.

gdandscompserv
03-25-2009, 11:00 AM
Every attack leaves an opening!:D

Erick Mead
03-25-2009, 01:53 PM
Which two techniques do you think best represents these principles? Let me see if this metaphorical question makes sense and then answer it in kind.

"What two techniques best represent the principles of surfing?"

If this sounds like a nonsense question -- it is. That is not to deny that there are techniques of control and movement that can be learned and internalized. But they are not "representative" of anything, other than something someone else has done in meeting with a particular wave on a particular occasion, and has found to fit a characteristic pattern in all wave-riding, as it occurs in a given instance.

Only the vagaries of the particular wave and our immediate disposition and response to it define whether it was a "good ride." And yet we can recognize when we and others are surfing well, or doing aikido well, for that matter.

The most representative thing I can think of -- for ALL of aiki is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiQm9b4jEoM

dps
03-25-2009, 01:53 PM
Irimi & Atemi?

IMHO:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/8660/dibujolje.th.jpg (http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dibujolje.jpg)

The classical Aikido clinch + headbutt.

That is only one (very advanced) technique.

David

Flintstone
03-25-2009, 06:42 PM
From my perspective, All techniques. If any technique is devoid of these principles then it will not be Aikido.
Not sure hiki otoshi adheres to the irimi principle... But agree on the rest.

James Edwards
03-25-2009, 07:09 PM
1st choice - anything that works

2nd choice - anything that works

The 1st choice may well be to use words - they can be effective, withdrawing may also be considered. Aikido techniques? maybe. I dont see aikido as a bunch of techniques to be applied in a "if the attacker does this you do that", rather a mind/body/spirit state that if achieved puts you into an optimum state to deal with whatever life dishes up.



I agree with this :)

If you always thing about "what if he does this?", you're going to get stuck. If your mind is free then the right option will come naturally.

And verbal aikido should be emphasised too of course

tarik
03-25-2009, 07:31 PM
Which Aikido technique would be your first choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

Which Aikido technique would be your second choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

David

As Chris already commented, if you're thinking about techniques, you're already working in the wrong direction. Think about principles.

For me right now, that would be zanshin and taisabaki at this point in my understanding.

Regards,

Demetrio Cereijo
03-25-2009, 10:33 PM
That is only one (very advanced) technique.

It wasn't an answer to your original (and unanswerable) question but an (not so advanced, imho) example of irimi & atemi,

Mary Eastland
03-26-2009, 06:41 AM
1. paying attention
2. correct distance

Mary

dps
03-26-2009, 07:56 AM
If you had an opportunity to demonstrate to a group of people and due to time constraints could only show two examples of Aikido, what would you show.

David

Dazzler
03-26-2009, 08:12 AM
Tai No Henka - Omote & Ura.

Why?

Because TNH contains the foundations of all Aikido hence the vast majority of classes starting with this basic reference.

Cheers

D

Dazzler
03-26-2009, 08:17 AM
Tai No Henka - Omote & Ura.

Why?

Because TNH contains the foundations of all Aikido hence the vast majority of classes starting with this basic reference.

Cheers

D

and why omote and ura?

Because there is a widespread misconception that Aikido is limited to self-defence...even this thread has it in its title.

By using omote the attacking pre-emptive potential of aikido can be demonstrated.

Regards

D

tarik
03-26-2009, 10:24 AM
1. paying attention
2. correct distance

Mary

zanshin and maai. I stand corrected and agree, thank you.

tarik
03-26-2009, 10:27 AM
If you had an opportunity to demonstrate to a group of people and due to time constraints could only show two examples of Aikido, what would you show.


I would probably not show any technique. I'd show two examples of kuzushi, that are occasionally referred to as the "ikkyo" principle and the "shihonage" principle. I'd call them something else, but the demonstrating of kuzushi and how it can affect the spine in each direction is fundamental from my point of view.

Regards,

kironin
03-26-2009, 07:32 PM
sometimes you hear "there are no stupid questions"

well....

if I am picking out a technique to do before hand, I am in deep do do.

dps
03-26-2009, 08:53 PM
Since there is a multitude of techniques to learn in Aikido and it takes many years to learn them, what two techniques would you practice the most to be able to use in a self defense situation. It would be stupid to wait until your attacked to try to figure it out. You react as you train.

David

Erick Mead
03-26-2009, 09:13 PM
Since there is a multitude of techniques to learn in Aikido and it takes many years to learn them, what two techniques would you practice the most to be able to use in a self defense situation. It would be stupid to wait until your attacked to try to figure it out. You react as you train.I agree with your last statement. But one does not react with any technique at all, but some technique will find itself blooming naturally on the stem of the trained reaction. There ain't no figgerin'. So the question of technique, in the sense you intend, is precisely the wrong way round.

I can teach almost anybody a technique inside of an hour -- what I cannot easily do, except through mindful repetition and critical correction, is teach the sensibility that makes one perceive that technique in the process of presenting itself in the encounter and the sensibility that makes it capable of being applied in that encounter.

If pressed I would say that if somebody did nothing else, ever, they could do funetori and udefuri and gain the essential sensibility to apply techniques, but not necessarily the sensibility to perceive the opening for any technique. For the the latter I would show kokyu tanden ho (kokyu-dosa), and furitama -- Putting them together? Well -- there is the art, isn't it?

And none of that looks like there is much "martial" in it ... but, of course, half of war is deception,.... :D

eyrie
03-26-2009, 09:39 PM
If you look at the various statistics available, most of them seem to indicate that > 90% of potential situations and encounters can be avoided by simply being aware and taking preventative physical measures.

So, I would agree that spatial awareness and distance - especially distances that can be afforded by simply running away - would form the "primary techniques" (or more accurately, "strategies") of the majority of SD responses.

As far as "secondary techniques" (or more appropriately, "responses") go, the principles of "blending" and "redirection", as applied to psychological and verbal de-escalation, are far more preferable to any physical "technique".

Actual physical "technique" is usually the action of "last resort", when all else fails. Even then, I would certainly not show ANY "technique", much less, ANY specific Aikido technique, simply because ritualized movement, such as that being touted as "technique", is antithetical to the situational dynamics of any encounter.

Rather, I would layout the physical and bio-mechanical basis of the human body, and how its natural physical limitations and weaknesses can be exploited by simple and rather basic gross movements; movements which comply with basic physical laws that would at the very least enable one to temporarily disable and/or disengage from an assailant, to create an escape opportunity - and thereby create distance.

In any case, the legal premise and ramifications of physical self-defence, is sufficient to preclude, and in certain cases even invalidate, the use of many "martial arts" techniques as a legal defence.

gdandscompserv
03-27-2009, 11:12 AM
In any case, the legal premise and ramifications of physical self-defence, is sufficient to preclude, and in certain cases even invalidate, the use of many "martial arts" techniques as a legal defence.
Excellent point.

dps
03-27-2009, 12:39 PM
. Rather, I would layout the physical and bio-mechanical basis of the human body, and how its natural physical limitations and weaknesses can be exploited by simple and rather basic gross movements; movements which comply with basic physical laws that would at the very least enable one to temporarily disable and/or disengage from an assailant, to create an escape opportunity - and thereby create distance.

And where in Aikido do you find this?

David

tarik
03-27-2009, 01:47 PM
And where in Aikido do you find this?

Musubi renshu.

Flintstone
03-27-2009, 04:50 PM
Ok, guys. David is asking a simple question that requires a simple answer. He's obviously and plainly asking for it again and again. This is not about strategy, principles or anything but he simply wants your two techiniques of choice.

Erick Mead
03-27-2009, 05:06 PM
Ok, guys. David is asking a simple question that requires a simple answer. He's obviously and plainly asking for it again and again. This is not about strategy, principles or anything but he simply wants your two techiniques of choice. Fair enough.
1) All
2) None.

:D

I think many have come from different paths at the the same answer which is that it has a mistaken premise of "choice" and that there is some generic hierarchy of utility. Neither is true. That doesn't mean it is a BAD question -- it is just a koan of sorts.

"Name the two colors that are your preferred piece of theatre"

"Techniques" are physical metaphors -- shorthand non-verbal
sketches.

Keith Larman
03-27-2009, 05:08 PM
On a (believe it or not) somewhat serious note, the first thing is Run Away! Run Away! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg).

On a more serious note, since attacks can come in so many different ways I don't really see how one can come up with 2 most important "techniques". Unless you consider "irimi" a technique.

Or maybe... Don't get hit, move, then connect with their center and control them...

Or...

Aiki, I guess...

Not the answer you want, I suppose, but the best I can do.

Keith Larman
03-27-2009, 05:13 PM
Ok, guys. David is asking a simple question that requires a simple answer.

True, but sometimes a simple answer isn't possible.

"How do you remove a cancerous tumor? Give a simple answer."

Well, "cut it out." is a simple answer but woefully inadequate. And every other answer assumes a particular type of cancer in a particular area with a patient with specific other issues. And then is the answer still all that simple even if you qualify all those things?

We often make things more complex than they need to be. But sometimes things really are complex.

Or as an old philosophy professor of mine used to say, Occam's razor isn't a law, just a suggestion. Or to quote Gershwin "It ain't necessarily so..."

dps
03-27-2009, 11:53 PM
True, but sometimes a simple answer isn't possible.

"How do you remove a cancerous tumor? Give a simple answer."

Well, "cut it out." is a simple answer but woefully inadequate. And every other answer assumes a particular type of cancer in a particular area with a patient with specific other issues. And then is the answer still all that simple even if you qualify all those things?

We often make things more complex than they need to be. But sometimes things really are complex.

Or as an old philosophy professor of mine used to say, Occam's razor isn't a law, just a suggestion. Or to quote Gershwin "It ain't necessarily so..."

Or to quote Confucius, "Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated."

David

eyrie
03-28-2009, 12:13 AM
And where in Aikido do you find this? In the "Universal Exercise"? Wax on, wax off? :D

I understood the question, but like everyone else has already said.... limiting yourself to specific techniques, in what is essentially a dynamic situation, is fraught with danger. You can certainly demonstrate a "technique" to illustrate a point or physical principle, but I, personally, would not rely on "dojo technique", Aikido or otherwise, to do so.

So the question as to what 2 "primary techniques" one would show is moot. Because, "it depends"... on what variables you are limiting the demonstration to, for the sake of simplicity and what basic assumptions you're making; i.e. What sort of attack? Standing up, on the ground, etc...? What specific principle, or set of principles, are you demonstrating and why? After all, a "technique" is merely how the principles can be applied, within the context of those predefined variables and assumptions, some of which would have to be modified, discarded, or added to in order to encompass the multitude of variations. BTW, this applies directly to dojo techniques as well.

I'm sorry it's not the direct answer you're seeking, and I would be loathed to say, sure, just use this or that technique, as it would unnecessarily stymie your imagination and creativity.

FWIW, I've just come back from conducting a women's self-defence workshop, and NOT one of the many "techniques" I demonstrated looked remotely like an Aikido technique. Although, I am certain that one of the participants who does/did Aikido would have immediately recognized the similarity of principles and potential applications within Aikido itself. Likewise, there were some example scenarios covered within the workshop where an assailant is on top of you. To someone in the know, it might have looked like basic BJJ, or a variation thereof, but I would hardly call it BJJ.

However, I would recommend, that whatever technique you do decide upon, keep it really really simple. If it's simple, it's easy to learn, and more importantly, remember.

dps
03-28-2009, 12:15 AM
"Techniques" are physical metaphors -- shorthand non-verbal
sketches.
If someone asks you to demonstrate what Aikido is about,
which two physical metaphors would you sketch.

David

Buck
03-28-2009, 12:23 AM
I don't know. It all depends on the situation, the attack, the type of attack, the number of attackers, the attacker, the environment, the space size, the place, if a weapon is or isn't used, the direction, line and angle of attack, my mobility capability- restrictions due to obstacles, barriers, object interference, moving or stationary hindrances. My location, am I sitting (in a car, chair etc.) or standing.

I would answer all techniques as my only one technique.

dps
03-28-2009, 12:29 AM
However, I would recommend, that whatever technique you do decide upon, keep it really really simple. If it's simple, it's easy to learn, and more importantly, remember.

Yes, do you have techniques that you would suggest?

David

dps
03-28-2009, 12:33 AM
I would answer all techniques as my only one technique.

I asked for two.

David

eyrie
03-28-2009, 12:53 AM
Yes, do you have techniques that you would suggest? No. ;) Even if I did... it wouldn't be an Aikido "dojo technique", so what's the point of asking the same question repeatedly to get the same answer? Sure, I can show you a trick or two, but that's all they would be - tricks, and then I'd have to kill you. :)

Like I said, what are you aiming to convey? What is the purpose of the demonstration? To show what Aikido is? Or to show self-defense applications of Aikido? In any case, my answer is still "it depends". Since I don't know what you do, can do, don't do, can't do, I can't answer this for you. Only you can.

In case, I wasn't clear before... I would NOT show ANY specific Aikido technique. (That in itself should already raise a few question marks as to why.... and if you don't know the answer to that, then I don't think you have any business demonstrating what Aikido is, or how it can be applied in a self-defense situation). However, if you wish to speak to common principles found in any martial art, that *could* be applied in a contrived self-defence scenario, we can talk about those here, or in another thread.

If you go back and read my first post, everything contained therein can be found within Aikido... both principles and "technique". ;)

Erick Mead
03-28-2009, 08:49 AM
If someone asks you to demonstrate what Aikido is about,
which two physical metaphors would you sketch.

David A chain and a handshake. I demonstrate both aiki age and aiki sage with a length of chain. We demonstrate sensitivity in connection to your partners' physical disposition with a handshake. (Ever wonder why people "shake" hands with that typical short, sharp oscillation? ) Furitama.

Same processes are in action in both those examples as are applied in aiki, aiki simply applies them more generally, and in more complex ways -- like seeing the "shape" of your chain that will "push" on his resisting chain when you are "shaking hands." (kokyu tanden ho). But again, these hardly look martial --- I suppose the chain looks a BIT "martial" ;)

Striking too, as I teach it, (empty handed or with sticks), is chain-like. If you doubt that can be done with a stick, try doing the "rubber pencil" trick and ask why your eye sees it oscillate and "bend."

tarik
03-28-2009, 07:17 PM
Ok, guys. David is asking a simple question that requires a simple answer. He's obviously and plainly asking for it again and again. This is not about strategy, principles or anything but he simply wants your two techiniques of choice.

Perhaps he should listen to the answers he's gotten. Some of us aren't going to change what we perceive as the correct answer just because he isn't happy to hear it, even assuming that is the actual case.

Flintstone
03-28-2009, 08:53 PM
Perhaps he should listen to the answers he's gotten. Some of us aren't going to change what we perceive as the correct answer just because he isn't happy to hear it, even assuming that is the actual case.
If he's asking for a technique (well, two), then an abstract concept is not to be perceived as the correct answer, IMHO. I agree with what most people's answering here, mind you, but that's not the point. I would say maai, or deai, or awase... but these won't be correct answers to that question.

tarik
03-28-2009, 11:49 PM
but these won't be correct answers to that question.

Let's agree to disagree. :)

mickeygelum
03-29-2009, 02:41 AM
One should train in Aikido, in order to understand Aikido. If one does not train in Aikido, how would you know when the answer to ones question was sufficiently answered or not?

Just my two cents...:straightf

Flintstone
03-29-2009, 08:57 AM
One should train in Aikido, in order to understand Aikido. If one does not train in Aikido, how would you know when the answer to ones question was sufficiently answered or not?
Well, I do train (in) Aikido. Not claiming to understand the deep mysteries of the art if they exist at all, but I guess I have a fair grasp of what is it about :straightf.

eyrie
03-29-2009, 07:25 PM
One should train in Aikido, in order to understand Aikido. If one does not train in Aikido, how would you know when the answer to ones question was sufficiently answered or not? Maybe it's just me, but to suggest that there exists 2 primary Aikido techniques of choice "to know for use in a self defense situation", and to insist upon the answer that one wants to hear, is both ignorant and naive. The insinuation that the question can only be satisfactorily answered by one who has trained in, and understands Aikido, is equally ignorant and naive.

mickeygelum
03-29-2009, 07:48 PM
Mr Teo....I wholeheartedly agree with your first point, not the second. It is clear that you did not comprehend my thought.

Mr Villanueva...Why are you taking it personal? If you are looking for a debate, you will not receive one. The OP is flawed, hence the sarcasm.

Train well,

Mickey

eyrie
03-29-2009, 08:01 PM
Ah... my apologies Mr Gelum, it appears, like Alejandro, I read you wrong. Perhaps your last sentence should read "If one does not train in Aikido, how would <strike>you</strike> ONE know when the answer to ones question was sufficiently answered or not?"

Flintstone
03-29-2009, 08:11 PM
Not personal, Mr. Gelum. Anyway I don't know what's wrong with a debate, or what an OP is. Sorry to interrupt. Please, go on. He's just not getting a suitable answer.

If I ask you what's your favorite colour, I'm not expecting to receive such answers as "it depends on the weather", or "asking for a colour is naive, you should concentrate in wavelengths instead", or "any color is ok, as long as the brush you use for painting is of the right thickness". But, once again, maybe it's just me.

eyrie
03-29-2009, 08:22 PM
OP = Original Post(er).

Enquiring as to what someone's favorite colors are, isn't the same thing. The OP is eliciting subjective responses which are neither appropriate nor adequate, to what essentially requires an objective assessment.

As Mr Gelum has pointed out, the question is flawed. And the numerous responses thus far, if they are any indication, quite blatantly points this out.

dps
03-29-2009, 08:59 PM
Which Aikido technique would be your first choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

Which Aikido technique would be your second choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

David

Just two simple questions that could easily be answered by two simple answers.

Thank you all who answered.

David

Flintstone
03-30-2009, 02:57 AM
OP = Original Post(er).
Thanks for that. Now back to my dictionary ;).

philippe willaume
03-30-2009, 06:40 AM
Which Aikido technique would be your first choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

Which Aikido technique would be your second choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

David

Hello mate
In 1, I would say the ability to deliver a meaningful shomen (up and down) (or yokomen since there is only the very last par that is different between shomen and yokomen we could say that it is just about the same strike) from tenkan, irimi and tenchin.
That does imply knowing large vulnerable area on the body to aim at.

In 2 using that initial strike to get
Either he head with tenchin/irimi nague including yokomen uchi irimi nague (p81 of budo) and chokumem p83 of budo) or kubinague

Or the hips (aikio tochi or tenchi nague using the leg) witch are really variation on shooting.

Or ikkio,rokyo, ude-osae, shiho nague including the ippon sheio-nague version/jije garami if you get both (I do not know the aikido name attacking the elbow before the wrist.

For me the idea is you strike is meaningful, he will not be able to move his head, his hips and his arm at the same time. He will have to leave one of those behind. There is really no point of going after the one he is moving.

phil

JimCooper
03-31-2009, 07:49 AM
Just two simple questions that could easily be answered by two simple answers.

That neatly sums up your problem. The questions appear simple, but they cannot be "easily answered".

Techniques are actually secondary in a self defence situation. And I mean that both in the sense that they happen second, and that they are less important .

Contrary to one of your earlier posts, you actually do have to wait until the attack happens to "figure out" which technique you might apply. You must defend yourself first. What technique (if any) you use comes after that. How you defend yourself depends on the attack.

morph4me
03-31-2009, 09:27 AM
It would depend on the attack, until I know what I have to work with, it's impossible to say.

tarik
03-31-2009, 09:31 AM
It would depend on the attack, until I know what I have to work with, it's impossible to say.

Speaking from personal experience, I think if it's real stuff, it will likely to be impossible to say after it happened as well. You'll just know if it worked, or if it didn't, and you MIGHT remember exactly what happened, but there's a good chance you won't remember details, unless your life wasn't really in danger and you knew it all along.

morph4me
03-31-2009, 09:47 AM
Speaking from personal experience, I think if it's real stuff, it will likely to be impossible to say after it happened as well. You'll just know if it worked, or if it didn't, and you MIGHT remember exactly what happened, but there's a good chance you won't remember details, unless your life wasn't really in danger and you knew it all along.

Agreed, trying to figure out what you're going to do before you know how you're being attacked or what you're defending against, or how many, or the environmental factors, or any number of other considerations is an exercise in futility, Until you're in that situation, and have to act to defend yourself, it's all fantasy, like planning what you're going to do with all your money when you win the lottery.

Faith Hansen
03-31-2009, 10:11 AM
The first technique I would try would be "ass and elbows". Cuz that's all they'd see as I got the heck out of there!

Phil Van Treese
03-31-2009, 03:26 PM
What would be the best technique??? Reaction to the aggression and take it from there. Try, if possible, to maintain your ma ai (distance) and if the person makes an aggressive move towards, react and do what you have to do.

Keith Larman
03-31-2009, 03:32 PM
If "Run Away! Run Away!" doesn't work, then Glock-fu is always a good backup. Done in a flowing, spiritually fulfilling manner with the spirit of Katsujinken of course...

But then again there's always "Louisville Slugger-Ryu"... Followed by "Soil your pants and babble incoherently-do". No one wants to mess with *that* guy... Eeeeuuuuwwww.

Phil Van Treese
04-17-2009, 03:32 PM
Irimi Nage would do wonders for his "crash landing"!!!

Maarten De Queecker
04-18-2009, 10:21 AM
I don't have any experience in defending myself on the street since I live in a pretty safe town but if I had to name some primary techniques for self defence I'd say all and none.

If you are sure there is no other option other than fighting, make the first step. Do a fast shomen uchi (starting low and going up, like an uppercut) to his head -preferably his nose-, see how he reacts. If he holds his hands in front of his head, you can easily proceed into ikkyo, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, etc. If he steps aside, you have an opening to "bravely take to your feet", to continue the monty python referencing done in this topic. The element of surprise, is always important. Of course, this is a mindset very much unlike that of most aikidoka, who are taught to respond to attacks instead of provoking them.

Stay calm and show confidence, and even a bit arrogance (e.g. having an evil grin on your face as if you're going to enjoy it). If your opponent sees this he might get a bit intimidated and lose some of his fighting spirit. Never underestimate the psychological side of a fight.

So what I mean with "all and none" is that one should never fix on using one single technique. That won't work. Knowing and seeing how one technique can flow into another is very important here. Main things to keep in mind are Centre and Control.
On the other hand, if you can startle your opponent enough with that first atemi to give you an opening that allows you to jump past him and beat a very brave retreat, you have the perfect aikido, IMHO. There was no conflict and noone was harmed and you reacted in harmony to the attacker's reaction.

My sensei says that the greatest misconception in aikido is that it is a purely defensive art. You choose your opponent (in case of multiple attackers) and fight him on your own terms as much as possible. If one just stands there and wait for the attack to come, he/she's is a sitting duck. In MMA you never see someone waiting for his opponent to attack so he/she can apply a techique on him/her. They take the initiative as often as possible.

Just my €/$/£ 0,02.

KD5NRH
06-22-2015, 11:45 AM
If "Run Away! Run Away!" doesn't work, then Glock-fu is always a good backup. Done in a flowing, spiritually fulfilling manner with the spirit of Katsujinken of course..

A Glock cannot be used in any positive spiritual manner. That's like inviting Satan to a tent revival with hope to baptize him.

OTOH, I have noticed that some techniques leave me in a pretty good position to back up quickly while reaching for my 1911 in a shoulder holster or a pocket carried .357 snub. Haven't found one yet that's right for a draw from the SmartCarry, but maybe we'll get to something.

sakumeikan
06-22-2015, 01:02 PM
Which Aikido technique would be your first choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

Which Aikido technique would be your second choice to know for use in a self defense situation?

David
Dear Dave,
A boot in the crown jewels followed up by the famous Glasgow kiss ie a head butt to the proboscis.Finishes off most unwelcome chaps. Cheers, Joe.

rugwithlegs
06-22-2015, 04:26 PM
I used to work with psychiatric patients. Kotegaeshi was okay for people I was legally caring for, or versions of Iriminage that did not involve the arm across the neck. My go to was Sankyo with my shoulder on top of Uke's - good for pinning on the floor, a wall, or as a come along, worked well as a disarm.

Outside of work, I have a huge respect for Shodokan's atemi waza, or the first five techniques of Junana. The first four in particular I have heard all called variations on Shomenuchi - if you're one of them, there's one technique in four separate, very broad categories with many, many variations on a theme. Shomenuchi really is the basis of so much of Ikkyo and the opening move to more Aikido techniques than any other one movement. I think it also compares to the Ki Society unbendable arm exercise and Yoshinkan's Hiriki no Yosei Ichi.

Time constraints - I get that a friend of mine joined the FBI and had six months of firearms, law enforcement, investigation methodology as well as hand to hand. Six months is not that long, and not when it's not an exclusive focus!

I have trained for 25 years; I have enjoyed the past 25 years, but crazy to think everyone has 25 years to prepare for the police force or military.

Where would I start to teach people is a very valid question for an instructor I think. Of course, it is a starting point of a very long road.

lbb
06-22-2015, 08:08 PM
A Glock cannot be used in any positive spiritual manner. That's like inviting Satan to a tent revival with hope to baptize him.

This is a six-year-old thread, fyi.

KD5NRH
06-23-2015, 12:18 PM
This is a six-year-old thread, fyi.

Glocks haven't changed significantly in the last six years.

rugwithlegs
06-23-2015, 05:35 PM
Really, what to teach to someone when you have time constraints isn't a new nor a time sensitive question. Where to start a new student and how to teach is probably the basis of most of our historical schisms as well being a never ending troll debate. Our words are given a certain amount of immortality here. I just wish I could go back and read the conversations our predecessors had!

Riai Maori
06-23-2015, 08:19 PM
Glocks haven't changed significantly in the last six years.

Only in the hands of thy beholder I believe?:D

lbb
06-24-2015, 08:27 AM
Glocks haven't changed significantly in the last six years.

But the person you're responding to has no doubt resolved the issue by now. So...?