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mathewjgano
03-16-2009, 05:51 PM
Hi all,
I thought since the yonkyo thread was so informative, I might ask the same basic question about katate tori. What is the point of katate tori?

Fred Little
03-16-2009, 06:13 PM
What is the point of katate tori?

Keeping the point of a short sword inside a scabbard or outside your belly would be two....

phitruong
03-16-2009, 06:14 PM
Hi all,
I thought since the yonkyo thread was so informative, I might ask the same basic question about katate tori. What is the point of katate tori?

most folks are right handed. use your left hand to grab his/her/its right to inconvenient him/her/it and hold him/her/it in place, while you pummel him/her/it with your right fist, elbow, knee, ...etc. use your disadvantage to inconvenient your opponent advantage while you bring your advantage to bear on your opponent inconvenient moments. did i mention kuzushi somewhere in there? just because you are uke doesn't mean that you don't practice the same thing.

Ketsan
03-16-2009, 06:54 PM
Where I practice the assumption is that katate dori is the opening phase of something bigger; for example we assume a strike will follow katate dori or perhaps an attempt to throw. It's an attempt to restrain and lock down tori before they can react, for example to prevent them drawing a sword, whille gaining positional advantage/attempt to break posture.

Also it's a quick and easy way of providing a point of contact so that you can practice moving uke's weight and study body mechanics, both of which are harder to study from a strike.

Keith Larman
03-16-2009, 07:23 PM
WRT training beginners, it is to give the student a strong connection to work with. Hard to learn aiki without a connection. And it is easier to build a connection if the person attacking grabs on strong first. Not as much for the new student to screw up.

WRT to more "self-defense" oriented points of view, the attacker grabbing usually has other ideas as already mentioned. It might also be to pull/push someone around. Or to just physically intimidate. But most likely it is a precursor to another attack elsewhere and they want to make sure you aren't using that other arm.

WRT to day to day... Because that's what sensei said to practice that day... ;)

ChrisHein
03-17-2009, 12:22 AM
Id say Fred Little hit it right on the head.

It's to keep people from using whatever it is they have in their hand. It's funny, because to the Koryu (old schools) this is pretty straight forward and simple, but to us Aikido folks, it's a pretty hard concept to get.

The best reason to really grab someones hand, and not wish to let go is because they are holding something you don't want them to use on you.

Not only true of Katate, but also Gyakute, Morote, Ryote, Ushiro Ryote, and Ushiro Kubishimi.

mathewjgano
03-17-2009, 09:19 AM
Thanks everyone, that makes quite a bit of sense! How would you describe the basic mechanics behind it? Or what might be the key issues people often have in trying to perform katate tori? For example, my understanding is that because the palm can withdraw when you grab at something, in katate tori, it's generally best to make sure you have good palm contact and are already entering through it before the fingers start to contract. Does that fit with your understanding and are there other pointers you'd offer to a beginner? ...or a moderately advanced student for that matter?

Fred Little
03-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Thanks everyone, that makes quite a bit of sense! How would you describe the basic mechanics behind it? Or what might be the key issues people often have in trying to perform katate tori? For example, my understanding is that because the palm can withdraw when you grab at something, in katate tori, it's generally best to make sure you have good palm contact and are already entering through it before the fingers start to contract. Does that fit with your understanding and are there other pointers you'd offer to a beginner? ...or a moderately advanced student for that matter?

Good connection (with appropriate hand position) before closing the fingers is always a good thing.

One point which is often overlooked (or forgotten) is that the person grabbing shouldn't be squared off directly in front of the person being grabbed; rather, the grabber should typically come from the outside of the arm being grabbed at a slight angle which prevents the opposite hand and foot from coming into play and also minimizes the odds of getting stuck, punched or poked in the belly with the hand be grabbed -- even if the person being grabbed is stronger than the person grabbing.

Hope this helps,

FL

ChrisHein
03-17-2009, 10:55 AM
It's an old adage, but holding with the pinky is key. if you have a strong grip from the pinky up, your grip will be very hard to brake.

Also, many Aikidoka hold the lower forearm instead of the wrist itself. In my experience this is a mistake. I generally try to hold right at the wrist joint.

This serves two purpose's. First it is the smallest part of the arm, this allows me to get the best grip possible as it gives my fingers maximum reach around.

Second, it stops the guy I'm grabbing from being able to easily bend his wrist toward me. This is very important if they have a knife, or a gun, as allowing them to turn their wrist toward you likely means you'll be cut, or shot.

Also, remember you can apply yonkyo when grabbing katate, this can come in handy, and surprise your opponent.

gdandscompserv
03-17-2009, 11:01 AM
If you want to develop a good grip, try wrangling mink for a while.:D

odudog
03-17-2009, 12:15 PM
The point is what are you going to do when someone grabs you?

Couple of years ago in the DC area, a 12 yr. old girl was grabbed by her wrist and dragged off by her assailant. He only grabbed her wrist just as in katate tori. This was caught on video tape. The guy killed the girl.

One of my instructors always used that scenario to set up the technique. Then low and behold, it actually happened that way.

ramenboy
03-17-2009, 02:52 PM
like keith said, its hard to 'learn aiki' without a connection. so as we start out, its a one-handed grab, so uke and nage become 'engaged.'

chiba sensei has said something along the lines that katate tori might not end up as a grab. its the representation of other attacks. if uke moves to grab katatetori with strong intent (as he/she should) it could become the representation of tsuki.

wideawakedreamer
03-17-2009, 08:52 PM
Interesting discussion.

Jerome, my instructors told me the same thing about katate tori possibly becoming the representing tsuki. My understanding of katate tori is that if he's close enough to take my wrist, he's close enough to hit me. So katate tori is good for learning maai as well as providing connection between uke and nage.

But I actually never thought about katate tori as an actual attack until I read this thread. Hmmm.... must experiment with this as soon as I get back to the dojo.:)