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aikishrine
02-13-2009, 11:15 PM
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?

dalen7
02-14-2009, 04:28 AM
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?

funny you should mention that - I was just thinking about the combo actually.

Interestingly enough, it would appear that many of the original Shihan had a Judo background...

In saying that, my instructor, (4th dan Aikido), also is dan ranked in Judo. And as I think about it, it would appear that he incorporates the idea into the art smoothly.

I never really thought about some of the moves before in this light, per say, but now looking at it, it seems that some of the moves have what you would call the 'push' / 'pull' philosophy in it.

So, at the end of the day, suppose it integrates nicely...but at the heart of it all, not to surprising if you ponder Toheis philosophy of body follows mind, and flow, etc.

What I mean is even Tai Boxing could work well within the framework. Heck, I wouldnt mind learning some Judo from my organizations Aikido head. It seems it would help me with (understanding of) some of the 'flow' and movements of Aikido.

Again, these are just some ponderings I have had as well - no direct experience with Judo really.

Be interesting to hear some input from dan holders of both arts.

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
At the end of the day, the arts, Judo, BJJ, Aikido, are all related...so there should be some way of integrating them. :)

Cyrijl
02-15-2009, 09:45 AM
Judo isn't about push and pull. There is just as much turning and entering

aikishrine
02-15-2009, 02:10 PM
Judo isn't about push and pull. There is just as much turning and entering

Well the fudamental philosophy behind Judo as far as i am aware is push when pulled and pull when pushed. I agree that there is some Irimi and Tenkan movements as well but that they are not stressed.
Thanks for your reply

Cyrijl
02-15-2009, 05:54 PM
That is just as much a gross simplificaiton as saying aikido is based on your partner grabbing your wrist in a a defined manner. A better simplification is that Judo places emphasis on Kuzushi while Aikido places emphasis on Irimi/Tenkan. The question would be, does Irimi/Tenkan lead to Kuzushi (or loss of balance) or does the breaking of Kuzishi allow you to turn and/or enter? Wel lat least that is my very simple shallow understanding of it. I may be 0 to 100% correct.

Kevin Leavitt
02-15-2009, 07:29 PM
I actually practice three arts full time, Judo, BJJ, and Aikido. Only been doing Judo for a year, but have Shodan in AIkido and a Purple Belt in BJJ.

I find Judo to be my weakest area. I am fascinated by the method of approach to learning. Judo limits so much stuff yet allows you to operate in an alive environment in that it really forces you to concentrate on developing some good skills. I think that is why I am finding it very, very difficult.

The posture training, foot work and overall use of the body is absolutely outstanding!

I look at it as a firm building block that I wish I had paid attentiion to years ago, I might actually be good as a Martial Artist if I had learned these important skills.

I can certainly see where studying Judo would have been a good base for further aiki training.

Necessary to learn aikido? no, but it sure might have saved me a few years of suffering!

Kevin Leavitt
02-15-2009, 07:31 PM
Well the fudamental philosophy behind Judo as far as i am aware is push when pulled and pull when pushed. I agree that there is some Irimi and Tenkan movements as well but that they are not stressed.
Thanks for your reply

To some it may be, but to be honest, the good guys I am with are all about kokyu and irimi and aiki...if you are simply pushing and pulling you are using strength and weight and that is very rudimentary.

aikishrine
02-15-2009, 10:04 PM
That is just as much a gross simplificaiton as saying aikido is based on your partner grabbing your wrist in a a defined manner. A better simplification is that Judo places emphasis on Kuzushi while Aikido places emphasis on Irimi/Tenkan. The question would be, does Irimi/Tenkan lead to Kuzushi (or loss of balance) or does the breaking of Kuzishi allow you to turn and/or enter? Wel lat least that is my very simple shallow understanding of it. I may be 0 to 100% correct.

I am just asking everyone a question. I dont have the answer myself, and probably never will. But what i will say is that from a training stand point in Judo the grappling doesnt lend itself well to irimi/tenkan movements as it does to the push pull philosophy, whereas in Aikido the hint of grappling, like the wrist grabs and such that are to be led and not to be allowed to be taken hold of that leads to irimi/tenkan as opposed to the push pull philosophy.

It is entirely possible that i am not expressing myself correctly, and for that i apologize.i may be 0 to 100% wrong as well, probably closer to 100% wrong. but i am still searching

Kevin Leavitt
02-15-2009, 11:00 PM
I am just asking everyone a question. I dont have the answer myself, and probably never will. But what i will say is that from a training stand point in Judo the grappling doesnt lend itself well to irimi/tenkan movements as it does to the push pull philosophy, whereas in Aikido the hint of grappling, like the wrist grabs and such that are to be led and not to be allowed to be taken hold of that leads to irimi/tenkan as opposed to the push pull philosophy.

It is entirely possible that i am not expressing myself correctly, and for that i apologize.i may be 0 to 100% wrong as well, probably closer to 100% wrong. but i am still searching

Pushing and Pulling are not the pinacle of movment in grappling arts. To me it is a low skill thing that we try to improve upon. The upper level guys in jiujitsu do very little of it, but move and respond with little or no proprioceptive indicators that are caused by pushing or pulling.

Irimi/Tenkan are there in Judo. It is done in such a way that you may not notice it as the big motion you see it aikido.

It is about controlling the body cross, moving around it and breaking it down (kuszushi).

The better you get, the more sensitive you get to subtle feels of pushing and pulling. I will see if I can find some vids on youtube to demonstrate.

Kevin Leavitt
02-15-2009, 11:08 PM
Good demo video of Kimura. He is not doing much pushing or pulling, but lots of moving off the attack line, blending, dropping, and using his body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVE82gH-v-g

aikishrine
02-16-2009, 09:30 AM
A realy good video thank you for taking the time to track it down i enjoyed it.

aikishrine
02-16-2009, 01:06 PM
Well i watched the video a few more times, and while i see some irimi/tenkan movements i still see where the push/pull is still more in play. Now i realize that on this video and in most training situations it is done statically, and there wouldnt be the push/pull aspect visible, but in a dynamic or more of a combative situation one would wait until they felt thier opponent either pushing or pulling them, and then they would do the opposite.

I guess this may seem a simplistic way to look at things, but who says that it should be complicated? Please keep the feedback coming, thanks

P.S. i dont know the exact quote but i think the main maxim of Judo is maximum efficiency with minimum effort, sounds pretty simple to me.

Kevin Leavitt
02-16-2009, 06:17 PM
Cool....no problems. In my experiences though, pushing and pulling are not maximum efficiency and minimum effort though. When you do these things, it triggers a response from your opponent that you now must over come and really doesn't get you very far.

Alot of this is perspective and semantics though for sure.

aikishrine
02-16-2009, 09:11 PM
I guess when it comes right down to it, i will just keep training in both and enjoy them for what they are. Hopefully one day when i am a little wiser i will find the understanding i am looking for, but if i dont, oh well, its the journey thats important not the destination.

bob_stra
02-18-2009, 10:56 AM
aikishrine Quote:
Well the fudamental philosophy behind Judo as far as i am aware is push when pulled and pull when pushed.

Opinions vary :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFaKlEf6m4k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc27NHrIRp8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wsQE6K3a6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dD6Xg9jCF1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJsjE_sTBy4&feature=related

aikishrine
02-18-2009, 11:29 AM
Thank you for the video links, i liked them all especially the nage no kata link. Please keep them coming.

Mark Kruger
02-18-2009, 12:15 PM
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?

I'm not sure what you mean by enter and turn movements. There are plenty of entries in judo... Many of the throws require you to get your center of mass under your partners. Either you lift and draw them, you enter under them, or some combination of both. Imagine trying to perform tomoe-nage without entering under uke and just dropping in place. :yuck: Then you have driving variants of forward throws like kouchi-gari, ouchi-gari. Do you see a textbook tenkan? No. However turning movements, arcs, and circles are all over the place. A setup for foot sweeps is to draw your partner into an arc. All of the 'back' throws (e.g. ogoshi) involve a turn on the part of tori. There is an entire group of throws with 'guruma' in the name, literally, 'wheel'.

I also don't think that judo's philosophy is that of push and pull. Push and pull is one route towards breaking balance. There other ways achieving or finding broken balance. Taking advantage of broken balance is part of throwing with maximum efficiency. Maximum efficiency is one of judo's maxims.

The big challenge for me is dealing with the alive training. Of course the alive training is also part of what draws me to judo.

James Wyatt
02-18-2009, 03:42 PM
If you want to see the principles behind judo (and for that matter most martial arts) look at the forms of five the itsutsu no kata. When I originally watched it being demonstrated by my aikido sensei (whom happens to be 7th dan judo and a Kodokan kata teacher and examiner) I thought it was aikido as it was so graceful.

You should bear in mind many of the Kodokan judoka were encouraged to learn aikido Jigoro Kano is reported to have said of aikido "That is real budo".

Have a look at youtube and the judo sites.

James

Ron Tisdale
02-18-2009, 03:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMw_Jtn3Avc&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=mifune+judo&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f
:D
B,
R and that is not even the best vid of him out there...

James Wyatt
02-18-2009, 04:09 PM
Also look at Mifune (my sensei's old teacher) doing the forms of five

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48

and the great Jigoro Kano on the koshiki no kata

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1YLcINgAqE

dalen7
02-18-2009, 04:23 PM
I was wondering, of the people out there who have tried both arts and may still train in both, do you find it easy or hard to incorporate the enter and turn movements of Aikido with the push and pull philosophy of Judo?

Just to add, from what I can tell with Yoshinkan Aikido, its all about push and pull - so to speak. (people here who practice that art may be able to speak more directly to your question though.) :)

There are typically 2 movements for each technique with Yoshinkan, based on whether uke is pushing or pulling.

Peace

dAlen

Mike Sigman
02-18-2009, 06:31 PM
Also look at Mifune (my sensei's old teacher) doing the forms of five

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdWvLDYlu48


This is an interesting kata. A lot of the current western Judo crowd examines the techniques of Judo and doesn't look (yet) into the fact that the body skills of the ju-jitsu ryu were more than technique. If it was just technique, there would not have been any reason to make a fuss of anything.... good techniques are common in any martial art.

In the Itsutsu-no-kata (this refers to sort of the "Kata of Five Elements" more than "5th Kata") the first movement involves a push. But look at the offset of the push. Why the offset? Look at Go-no-kata ("Go" also means "Five" in one sense, but they mean "Go" in the sense of "Hard" as in "Go versus Ju", "hard versus soft"). Here there are also some obvious pushes, but they are direct.

http://www.judo-educazione.it/video/go_no_kata_kodokan.html

What I'm getting at is that Aikido and Judo share the same roots, so what is in Judo is, in some variation from the original, the same things that are in Aikido. The difference is usually just a variation of degree. Kano's statement about Aikido being similar indicates that.

In the Itsutsu-no-kata, the techniques are more sophisticated. The offset push takes much more skill than a direct push. You're seeing more of the "shu-ha-ri" stages of development of skills. But within the development of skills is a lot of variations and I don't see Judo and Aikido and shuai jiao, Taiji, and many other arts as being much more than variations of the same basic theme. NOT that they're the same, by any means, but they are obvious variations of core themes. Kano thought so, too. "Push-Pull"? None of the arts, when done at a higher level, is that obvious. Sometimes we may underestimate various Asian martial-arts when we only see the techniques.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

92ilyas
03-01-2009, 07:59 AM
According to Tomiki Sensei both the principles of Ju and Aiki are one and the same. He teaches us to think of things like this if we are attacked from a distance ie, punch, grasp or weapon we should respond with either atemi waza or kansetsu waza in other words Aiki techniques and when the attack comes from very close or on the ground then we should respond with either the groundwork or throwing techniques of Judo.

On the subject of Kata the fundamental 17 (ju nana no hon) of Tomiki Sensei's does have a couple of techniques very similar to some found in Koshiki no Kata and in one way or another any technique that we practice in Judo or Aikido will have a connection to the Itsutsu-no-kata one way or another as it demonstrates all the physical forces found in nature/universe. There is also the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu Kata developed by Tomiki Sensei that is also a fascinating study when properly practiced instead of muscled.

Mike Sigman
03-01-2009, 02:38 PM
According to Tomiki Sensei both the principles of Ju and Aiki are one and the same. Hi Joe:

If it's not to much trouble, can you point me to some sort of citation regarding the above so that I can add it to my records? Thanks. Even a p.m. would be fine.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Budd
03-01-2009, 03:07 PM
I think practicing the things in common that make for really good judo and really good aikido are going to imbue a much better overall skillset from a personal cultivation, combative effectiveness, and physical health & conditioning perspective - than trying to worry about what art does what. I think there's an appropriate time and place for preservation of things specific to a martial art - but not at the expense of becoming good or even "great" . . or in other words . . developing some basic skills that anyone that "does a martial art" should have some familiarity with . .

James Wyatt
03-01-2009, 03:26 PM
They (being other martial arts) are all the same but different (so says my sensei, whom was also instructed by Tomiki Sensei in the judo kata and the goshin ju jutsu (he was later given permission by the Kodokan to write a book on it).

He pointed out when demonstrating the forms of five the principles of all martial arts are the same and interpreted differently. The forms of five were for the very high dan ranks as they had a deeper understanding of the underlying principles. On another occasion I remember watching a very high ranking karateka giving a demonstration and thought it was an aikido technique and the judoka next to me thought it was judo!

I understand a technique can be broken down to kuzushi (breaking of balance) with tsukuri (distance) and kake (throw).

James

Flintstone
03-01-2009, 03:32 PM
According to Tomiki Sensei both the principles of Ju and Aiki are one and the same.
Isn't it that Mochizuki Sensei said the same thing? "Judo AIkido Ichi"? I cannot find the reference, though...:(

mwible
03-01-2009, 08:31 PM
That is just as much a gross simplificaiton as saying aikido is based on your partner grabbing your wrist in a a defined manner. A better simplification is that Judo places emphasis on Kuzushi while Aikido places emphasis on Irimi/Tenkan. The question would be, does Irimi/Tenkan lead to Kuzushi (or loss of balance) or does the breaking of Kuzishi allow you to turn and/or enter? Wel lat least that is my very simple shallow understanding of it. I may be 0 to 100% correct.

In my studies, Kuzushi should be maintained throughout every technique. It does not lead to Irimi/Tenkan, moving Irimi or Tenkan is just a means of aquiring the Kazushi of your opponent.

in aiki,
morgan

92ilyas
03-02-2009, 07:06 AM
Just to back up the statement I made in my last post

In his book Aikido and Judo on page 101 Tomiki Sensei states...

""The meaning of "aikido." The old saying goes, "It is the spirit that carries the mind and controls the body." The people of ancient times believed that man's mind and body and consequently his strength were under the control of the spirit. Aiki means making your spirit "fit in" with your opponent's. After all it means the same thing as the "principle of gentleness," for it is an explanation of the principle from within.""

92ilyas
03-02-2009, 07:38 AM
Oh yeah I just remembered I also have on video tape Ohba Sensei giving a class on a visit to Australia in the late 70's or early 80's in which he threw Futami Sensei with Osoto Gari Judo throw followed immediately by Aigamae Ate Aikido throw then saying to the class "Aikido Judo same"

aikishrine
03-02-2009, 10:02 PM
I have been reading and enjoying your replies to my thread, so please keep them coming. I want to say that i personally dont find that they are similar, maybe it is the way my Judo Sensei teaches us. The only school i have to my avail. is sport oriented, and maybe there are schools that are different, or more self defensive in orientation. Perhaps those would be more closely related to Aikido.

That being said i have watched videos on the itsutsu no kata and i can see where one might see aiki. Also i will say that i truly enjoy training in both and will continue to do so for as long as i can.

Cyrijl
03-04-2009, 10:26 AM
In my studies, Kuzushi should be maintained throughout every technique. It does not lead to Irimi/Tenkan, moving Irimi or Tenkan is just a means of aquiring the Kazushi of your opponent.

in aiki,
morgan

Sorry if I wasn't clear, that is what I meant, 'you use your movement to unbalance your opponent.'

aikishrine
03-06-2009, 10:11 AM
Getting back to the original point of this thread, i have been reading a book called "Mind Over Muscle" by Jigoro Kano in which he points out in more than one spot that his main point of breaking kuzushi is pushing when pulled and vice versa. Now i do certainly agree with alot of you who have posted on this thread that irimi/tenkan is also of some importance, however i still have to believe that push/pull is the main component of Judo. Which separates it from Aikido in a great way. And while i have the utmost respect for people like Kenji Tomiki, i think his statement about Aikido and Judo being the same, is a gross injustice to both arts. IMHO.

Mike Sigman
03-06-2009, 11:45 AM
And while i have the utmost respect for people like Kenji Tomiki, i think his statement about Aikido and Judo being the same, is a gross injustice to both arts. IMHO.Since he was an 8th Dan in both arts, we at least have to think he had more to go on than just whimsical opinion, though. ;)

FWIW

Mike Sigman

mathewjgano
03-06-2009, 12:07 PM
Getting back to the original point of this thread, i have been reading a book called "Mind Over Muscle" by Jigoro Kano in which he points out in more than one spot that his main point of breaking kuzushi is pushing when pulled and vice versa. Now i do certainly agree with alot of you who have posted on this thread that irimi/tenkan is also of some importance, however i still have to believe that push/pull is the main component of Judo. Which separates it from Aikido in a great way. And while i have the utmost respect for people like Kenji Tomiki, i think his statement about Aikido and Judo being the same, is a gross injustice to both arts. IMHO.

I don't know about an injustice...I mean, sure it's a simplification when you consider the historical differences, but the practices themselves come from the same basic roots and they explore the same basic human form, even if they tend to express it a little differently. Also, I do remember looking up judo stuff and finding that it looked very much like Shodokan Aikido...which was very similar to the Aikido I learned from Sensei Barrish (which is itself I think heavily based on Tohei Shihan's Aikido). Same same but different.

PeterR
03-07-2009, 05:33 AM
I've always like to say Aikido is what you do while closing the distance - Judo is what you do when you get there.

Kenji Tomiki taught both Aikido and Judo at Waseda during the same period but was very careful to keep the practice of both separate. There were a number of reasons for this I think but not to do with either art being grossly different from each other in the broadest sense.

One of the clearest reasons is that if you allow Judo techniques into the Aikido randori it becomes Judo very quickly - which defeats the point which is to train aikido techniques.

Another reason was that the purpose of Judo at the University level especially universities like Waseda is to train strong competitors - with Judo the more subtle levels of the art come later.

Aikido tends to do the opposite in that kata dominates randori earlier in the game. Kenji Tomiki sure felt that certain aikido went too far (hence his Aikido randori) but he also felt that both were integrated into the jujutsu whole.

I don't know about an injustice...I mean, sure it's a simplification when you consider the historical differences, but the practices themselves come from the same basic roots and they explore the same basic human form, even if they tend to express it a little differently. Also, I do remember looking up judo stuff and finding that it looked very much like Shodokan Aikido...which was very similar to the Aikido I learned from Sensei Barrish (which is itself I think heavily based on Tohei Shihan's Aikido). Same same but different.

Kevin Leavitt
03-07-2009, 12:07 PM
Good points Peter. I agree. I train Aikido, Judo, and BJJ..which are all variations of training on the same theme.

I see much value in keeping the practices separate and distinct as they allow you to concentrate on an indepth study at what is essentially three distinct ranges of combat.

Of course, they are not really separate and distinct and each has elements of overlap, for example Judo and BJJ are very, very similar but Judo provides an very indepth study of throws whereas BJJ is very weak in that area, BJJ does Newaza very well, but in weaker in throwing.

Aikido is a wonderful practice for learning about..not so much the range, although we tend to practice "connection" at a weapons based range alot...which frankly I find to be very difficult to do and what I consider to be "grad school" level since you are dealing with so, so much space and very, very little actual connection.

We also study, as you know the whole concept of Kokyu, which today, in my Aikido class I had a new understanding of it and plan on trying some things out with it in my BJJ class next week!

Keeping the practices separate provides me structure that allows me to focus and explore a deeper understanding of the dynamics of what we are doing.

I then like to synthesize them back into my "self" and unify all that as one when I do whatever it is that I do!

aikishrine
03-08-2009, 11:06 AM
Kevin i was wondering what your base art is? And what art you started first, second, and third?

Kevin Leavitt
03-08-2009, 12:21 PM
I started Tae Kwon Do as part of a health club membership, then migrated to a local, traditional Karate School for about 5 years. When I moved to DC I was told by my karate instructor to take advantage of Saotome Sensei and ASU as much as I could.

My base art I believe is AIkido as it is the one I have spent the most time with over the last 13 years.

About 5 years ago, I started BJJ, which is the one I am concentrating most of my personal efforts on right now.

I currently practice and teach BJJ about 10 hours per week (5 Days per week). I spend only about (4 hours) 1 day a week in Aikido. I also currently study and compete in Judo 2 days a week in the evenings for about 4 hours).

In addition, I spend some of my "work" time with the Army Combatives program each quarter.

For my "aiki" training these days I prefer to try and interpret and integrate it into my other practices. I am fortunate to have access to some good teachers so the time I spend on Saturday mornings is well spent. I also like to try and attend seminars with folks like Mike Sigman, Ark and Rob John, Toby Threadgill, and hopefully soon Ushiro Sensei.

WIth AIki, I like to try and stress QUALITY training over shear QUANITY. That and I like it to be INTEGRATIVE in my "Combative" practices as that is very important to me so this is how I like to balance my time right now.

I am also exploring the Alexander Technique teaching methods as I find their interpretation of how the mind and body work together to be quite interesting and a very applicable methodology in this learning process.