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Jeremy Hulley
02-08-2009, 05:13 PM
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Its still a really slow process.

I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.

I would also love to hear from folks doing systema about striking/punching mechanics.

Best
Jeremy

Budd
02-08-2009, 07:31 PM
I think of stretching and compressing portions of the body to maximize the ground/hand connection and using gravity directed by the middle to coordinate and amplify all those things so that the body moves (delivering these 'forces') as one unit - the main thing being the gravity/ground powers with the other things as additives. Because there's so much going on - I'm not really worrying about how "hard" I'm hitting, but more how "right".

Mike Sigman
02-08-2009, 08:26 PM
I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.If I told you, I'd have to kill you, Jeremy. ;) Nah.... the problem is that like a lot of things it's not all that complicated, but you'd have to understand the background. Sorta like a certain riff on the guitar in A-minor is simple logically... as long as you have some basic background in guitar and music theory. That sort of thing.

Best.

Mike

Jeremy Hulley
02-08-2009, 11:38 PM
Because there's so much going on - I'm not really worrying about how "hard" I'm hitting, but more how "right".

I'm trying to continue to do things more slowly so that I can focus on what's "right".

I'm working on doing the same stuff in sword. Its a challenging transition.

phitruong
02-09-2009, 08:12 AM
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.
Jeremy

Jeremy,

If you have not already, you might want to waltz over to Ledyard sensei's dojo and bring a yellow page phone book with you. on second thought, if you weighted less than 200 lbs, you might want to bring two phone books. when Ledyard sensei see you with the phone books, then he knows your question. Try not to eat anything before, because it is a bad form to make the local dojo cleaning up the mess. :D

I got my phone book experience at the seminar with Ledyard sensei last weekend. and no, I did not make a mess. :cool:

Jeremy Hulley
02-09-2009, 10:57 AM
My original post was not meant as an attack on George.

I'm geuinely curious about how people's mechanics or thoughts about punching have changed since their exposure to Mike/Ark/Dan..or maybe it has not changed. I'd like to hear about that too.
best

Mike Sigman
02-09-2009, 11:32 AM
I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Incidentally, I have to be in Seattle for a few days at the end of July (to accompany my wife while she goes to a meeting). If the times work out I'll be happy to meet for a bit with a few people to shoot the breeze and see what they're doing. P.m. me if anyone is interested.

Best.

Mike

phitruong
02-09-2009, 11:52 AM
My original post was not meant as an attack on George.

I'm geuinely curious about how people's mechanics or thoughts about punching have changed since their exposure to Mike/Ark/Dan..or maybe it has not changed. I'd like to hear about that too.
best

Don't know if you have heard of this phrase: It has to be felt. my suggestion was so that you can feel what it's like of the effects. I guaranteed you that it feels completely different between the normal kind of hitting/punching versus the one that you are asking. one kind penetrates the phone books, the other kind, does not. My suggestion was genuine. Ledyard is a great guy, and I doubt that he would withheld the information from you.

Jeremy Hulley
02-09-2009, 12:10 PM
I'm really trying to keep from getting off topic but...

I've been to George's dojo. We have trained together. We are friendly. I don't think that he is with holding information.

It has to be felt applies to lots of things.

Would you talk aobut how your experience with George has changed how you are hitting?

Thanks
Jeremy

phitruong
02-09-2009, 01:46 PM
Would you talk aobut how your experience with George has changed how you are hitting?

Jeremy

my experience with George only changed my hitting approach just a little bit. It's not really related to what you are asking. I telegraphed my intention too much and wasn't moving smoothly. sort of if you are going to punch, then punch and don't contemplating out it.

most of the things you described so far are what i have been doing as well. i also add a down-shifting of my center with my strikes. relax through the entire range of my strikes, i.e. not tensing at the point of impact. not cocking my arms or body parts for the strike, i.e. hitting from wherever my hands or body parts at the moment which required building up a good connected body and focus intention on the purest path between my power source through pass my target point(s). keep your mind calm and clear (very hard when the other blokes are also trying to pack you in). and some reverse breathing.

my experience with systema folks and Mike changed the way I strike, not George. sometimes you have to feel the effects of the strike to understand the nature of the strike and to produce it.

mind you, I started on this path only recently and don't have a clue where it will lead, but the journey is quite interesting so far. :)

*wonder if i gave away common secrets which folks might hunt me down* :D

Howard Popkin
02-09-2009, 03:13 PM
As long as you don't give away my tuna fishing secrets, you are safe :)

Mike Sigman
02-09-2009, 03:18 PM
*wonder if i gave away common secrets which folks might hunt me down* :DI wouldn't worry about it, Phi. Most people couldn't pour water out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel. ;) What I mean is that most of the word-descriptions won't tell anyone how to do anything. There's too much that simply has to be shown and explicitly detailed.

Best.

Mike

Jeremy Hulley
02-09-2009, 03:33 PM
As long as you don't give away my tuna fishing secrets, you are safe :)

Nice catch...
So Jealous:)

eyrie
02-09-2009, 05:10 PM
Man, that's a LOT of sashimi... :D

George S. Ledyard
02-09-2009, 07:45 PM
Mike,
When are you going to be up here? I am afraid it might just be when I have to be in CO for Summer camp but I would hope not... Let me know the dates, I'd love to get together again.
- Geo

George S. Ledyard
02-09-2009, 08:06 PM
My original post was not meant as an attack on George.

I'm geuinely curious about how people's mechanics or thoughts about punching have changed since their exposure to Mike/Ark/Dan..or maybe it has not changed. I'd like to hear about that too.
best

Hi Jeremy,
My own experience with Ark helped immensely with a number of mechanical issues that have considerably increased my power while requiring a lot less effort. I can't pursue many of his conditioning exercises as my knee is really shot for many of them but I am working around that as much as possible and finding things I can do.

I got quite a bit from Ushiro as well but more on how ones attention effects things.

Mike gave me a lot to work on during the brief time I saw him a couple years ago but I still try to do what I remember he told me. With no supervision its a bit hit or miss.

But my strikes have certainly changed so something is happening. I hit Phi (with two yellow pages on his chest) with the strongest boxing style hook to the midsection I could muster... lots of hip power and weight shift... while I don't think most folks would want to be hit with that (I am a super heavy weight after all) it wasn't anything that rocked his world with the phone books there. My attempt at duplicating something more along the lines of Mike's strike had far more effect with a fraction of the effort. It easily could have been a fight-ender without the phone books. But having actually felt what Mike can do, I'd say I am quite a ways off from that as yet.

Ark, Mike and Dan are helping folks a lot. The Systema folks as well, although there strikes are different. The dual emphasis on correct posture and proper structural conditioning can produce changes very quickly, especially when you first start the program. Like anything else, it takes a lot of work to take it out to the limits of what is possible. I encounter a number of people who have been training with these teachers in my Aikido. I can pretty much tell immediately when I touch them that they've been doing something different from the rest of their Aikido peers.

George S. Ledyard
02-09-2009, 08:15 PM
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Its still a really slow process.

I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.

I would also love to hear from folks doing systema about striking/punching mechanics.

Best
Jeremy

Hi Jeremy,
In addition to the same things you have been working on, like Ark's instruction particularly, I've been playing with some other things. The wave that the Daito Ryu folks generate with their body for throwing, which you've experienced with Popkin Sensei is something I've been working into my striking and it is changing things dramatically. I actually started with static contact a la Systema, then created the wave but very slowly and deep,simply moving the partner's body while staying completely relaxed, then moved to running the same wave in an actual strike. I couldn't say without some feedback whether this is on the same track as what these other teachers are doing or is different but I am happy with the results so far.
- George

William Kaminsky
02-09-2009, 10:30 PM
Please pardon me if the following question is ignorant, but what role---if any--does tameshiwari play in these internal-oriented approaches to striking? I'm not so much thinking of tameshiwari of the usual brute-force type (i.e., "What's the maximum number of boards or bricks can I break when they're nicely arranged on firm supports?"). Rather, I'm thinking those types of tameshiwari which---at least in several schools of karate---are considered very stringent tests of proper focus (e.g., breaking a free-falling board with a descending knife-hand strike).

Jeremy Hulley
02-10-2009, 12:13 AM
Thanks George. Good stuff..

Mike Sigman
02-10-2009, 08:02 AM
Mike,
When are you going to be up here? I am afraid it might just be when I have to be in CO for Summer camp but I would hope not... Let me know the dates, I'd love to get together again.
- GeoHi George:

I'll be in Seattle from at least the 29Jul-01Aug. At the moment I'm trying to sort things out because my wife and I haven't decided whether to come in early for side-trips, etc. I'll p.m. you as things settle down.

Best.

Mike

phitruong
02-10-2009, 08:51 AM
Please pardon me if the following question is ignorant, but what role---if any--does tameshiwari play in these internal-oriented approaches to striking? I'm not so much thinking of tameshiwari of the usual brute-force type (i.e., "What's the maximum number of boards or bricks can I break when they're nicely arranged on firm supports?"). Rather, I'm thinking those types of tameshiwari which---at least in several schools of karate---are considered very stringent tests of proper focus (e.g., breaking a free-falling board with a descending knife-hand strike).

Don't think in term of what the maximum number of boards/bricks to break or the speed test (a la breaking free-falling board). Think in term of which brick/board in the middle of the stack that i can break (Jean-Claude VanDam movie). Don't know if you noticed when i mentioned the strike where Ledyard sensei's power went through the book and attempted to go through my body. had i not used the breathing technique that i picked up from Mike, it would have gone through my body and i would have lost my breakfast and lunch on the spot. and i hate losing my foods just as i hate the smirk look on Howie face standing there by the big fish. it just make you want to grab a sharp knife, green mustard, pickled ginger and go sashimi. although, grilling on hot coals with light lime juice and garlic and a side of mango salsa would work too. :D

*i hate you Howie! you just know how to hurt a guy from a distance. now i have to go to the fish market. *

George S. Ledyard
02-10-2009, 10:22 AM
it just make you want to grab a sharp knife, green mustard, pickled ginger and go sashimi. although, grilling on hot coals with light lime juice and garlic and a side of mango salsa would work too.
Damn, "Foo" I had no idea you might go postal... I'd have done it with someone safer... I was inches from death and didn't even know it.
- Georege

gdandscompserv
02-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Damn, "Foo" I had no idea you might go postal... I'd have done it with someone safer... I was inches from death and didn't even know it.
- Georege
Just be glad he didn't go egg "foo" yung on you!:D

Howard Popkin
02-10-2009, 04:12 PM
Oh Phi,

Hate is such a strong word. Well, next time I'm in NC - we go to the coast catch a Giant Bluefin and some really big amberjack and have ourselves a sushi fest.

Looking forward to it, and some training too :)

Howard

Mark Jakabcsin
02-11-2009, 10:44 PM
Phi,
I have plenty of phone books.....perhaps you and Patrick can stop by for some testing. If all else fails we can tape 2 phone books to your back and I'll punch you to see if I can make the books scream. :)

Mark J.

PS. I made slight adjustment to my striking recently it is more consistent and much deeper than the last time we met.

Nathan Wallace
02-12-2009, 10:42 AM
I have become vary interested recently in the striking methods of Aikido. In my searching online I found this interveiw with Yutaka Kurita Shihan-

http://www.aikidoonline.com/index2.asp?location=/Features/Kurita.htm

-specifically the small discussion on proper striking for Aikido. I would be very greatful for insights on this and further information. Also while we are near the subject. I remember reading (I believe in one of Shioda Sensei's books; I can't be sure) that O'sensei himself "demonstrated powerful kicks" but that since it is easier to teach rooting ones center to the ground through two legs, after he died, Aikikai abandoned teaching them. Or something along those lines. ANY information on this would be AWSOME. Thank you.

ChrisMoses
02-12-2009, 12:41 PM
Disclaimers: I'm no master at any of this, this is just what I'm working on now, I don't claim to get all of the deep underlying concepts, I will probably not state this very clearly... blah, blah, blah...

Jeremy and I were actually talking about this a couple weeks ago, so he knows what I'm going to write here, but I figured I'd throw this out to the board since he started this thread.

A lot of my current take on striking has come from the Aunkai spearing/punching exercise. I've been playing with different versions of this exercise to try and focus in on the actual mechanism of the strike. However I'm doing the exercise (slowly, fast as possible, repeating strikes, single strikes/spears, with bo, without bo...) I have been trying to focus on the sensation of weight through the heels just before the strike followed by a tension/stretch through the lower abdominal area that I try to 'fly' the arm out and forward. There is no waist or hip twist going on (other than a very slight squaring if I'm transitioning from the back leg to the front) while the arm goes out. The sensation is that of pressure building (typically) from the rear heel and kind of connecting with the abdomen, then the pressure seems to allow the arm to fly out with minimal muscular intent in the arm itself. At the end of the strike I feel a kind of pressure echo between the fist and the heel of the rear leg (if I did it right). This pressure would be analogous to a rubber band reaching the end of it's stretch and beginning to contract inwards. Or perhaps a better analogy would be a balloon. If you push down on the top of the balloon quickly and forcefully, it expands outwards equally 90 degrees from the push and then contracts back equally to its relaxed state.

So that's what I'm working on. I try to steer clear of any of the CMA terms since I never seem to use them right. As my daughter says, "Daddy's not very good at Chinese..." ;)

Anybody out there playing with striking and the basic kettlebell swing? I wouldn't call that an IMA thing, but it's interesting too.

Mike Sigman
02-12-2009, 01:45 PM
I have become vary interested recently in the striking methods of Aikido. In my searching online I found this interveiw with Yutaka Kurita Shihan-

http://www.aikidoonline.com/index2.asp?location=/Features/Kurita.htm

-specifically the small discussion on proper striking for Aikido. I would be very greatful for insights on this and further information. Also while we are near the subject. I remember reading (I believe in one of Shioda Sensei's books; I can't be sure) that O'sensei himself "demonstrated powerful kicks" but that since it is easier to teach rooting ones center to the ground through two legs, after he died, Aikikai abandoned teaching them. Or something along those lines. ANY information on this would be AWSOME. Thank you.Nice interview, Paul. Thanks. I tend to agree that Ueshiba did things (in terms of hitting/striking) differently than Tohei and some others. There's a video taken in about 1935 in which O-Sensei is doing some demo's in fairly formal garb, including tachiwaza, kenjutsu (with bokuto), etc. During the kenjutsu portion you can see that he's been taught (somewhere; I have no idea where) how to use the classic store-and-release techniques to some degree. Undoubtedly he would have used that same foundation for atemi. I have never seen any video of Tohei doing that sort of release and my personal *guess* (that's all it is) is that Tohei was never taught this sort of thing. In later life videos of O-Sensei it's very difficult to deduce much from his movements because he had by then ingrained them closer to the point of "stillness in motion; motion in stillness", so it would have been hard for a post-war student to perhaps grab this method.

I don't know what to say about the purported powerful kicks. I was watching a video (on a DVD) yesterday that showed me a striking example of just how powerful O-Sensei's legs were. So were his kicks from strong legs and technique or were they because he also knew how to use breath exercises to boost the power of his kicks? We'll probably never know.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Mark Jakabcsin
02-12-2009, 10:00 PM
Jeremy,
There are many types and methods of striking. Different methods result in different results. A starting question would be what result are you attempting to accomplish? The answer to that question will direct the answers.

Mark J.

xuzen
02-12-2009, 11:29 PM
This thread was loosely inspired by a question Mike Sigman asked George Ledyard in the members lounge.

I used to do the very basic hips turn creating torque and the power travels up the torso and out the arms.

I'm now trying (mostly) to create a clear connection from the ground to my hand. I'm mostly working to use good alignment, relax my back and allowing my center to express the strike.

If I relax my lower back correctly and maintain good up down connection my arms will raise up slightly. I am working on taking that connection and shifting it to a strike/hit/punch.

Its still a really slow process.

I'm curious about what other folks who have worked with Ark/Mike/Dan are working on regarding striking.

I would also love to hear from folks doing systema about striking/punching mechanics.

Best
Jeremy

I did try some Krotty (Shorin-Ryu) and the way they thought me how to punch was ..... very stiff and not lively.

However I think the western style type of boxing is very good way of learning how to punch.

Again the power of the punch comes from the twisting of the torso/hips while the shoulder and arms are to be kept relaxed at all times.

Boon.

Mike Sigman
02-12-2009, 11:34 PM
I did try some Krotty (Shorin-Ryu) and the way they thought me how to punch was ..... very stiff and not lively.

However I think the western style type of boxing is very good way of learning how to punch.

Again the power of the punch comes from the twisting of the torso/hips while the shoulder and arms are to be kept relaxed at all times. That was pure heresy, Boon. You have betrayed your heritage! :D

Mike

xuzen
02-13-2009, 12:08 AM
That was pure heresy, Boon. You have betrayed your heritage! :D

Mike

Mike,

I don't care as I found out that Western Style boxing is a very good methodology of learning how to punch.

My punches are faster, more powerful with lower recovery time, in a nut shell: very efficient.

Also, the footwork is very good as oppose to krotty which advocate rootedness. Standing there rock solid like a mountain is just plain invitation to receive punishment (punches). Moving around, bobbing and weaving in and out is better to avoid getting punched.

Boon.

Upyu
02-13-2009, 02:16 AM
Again the power of the punch comes from the twisting of the torso/hips while the shoulder and arms are to be kept relaxed at all times

Man,
If I got a nickel for every time I hit a grappler using only "arm", no hips, and flooring them... :D (From a feet parallel stance)

Actually someone I know recently (that hits like a dump truck) said:
Him: You know humans only have two legs right? Well what if you had three legs, and had Tripod like balance

Me: You'd totally pwn people due to the "power" derived from the superior balance

Him: Right, but you don't have three legs.
<downs his beer>
But actually you do.
Oops...think I said too much. If you can figure that one out..well I'll give you +1 for not having a vacuum inside that thing you call a head. :D

Mark Jakabcsin
02-13-2009, 09:01 AM
Boxing punches are one method of striking. One big advantage is the relative ease of gaining some degree of proficiency in a short period of time.


My punches are faster, more powerful with lower recovery time, in a nut shell: very efficient.



As for efficiency I guess that is in the eyes of the beholder. Correct me if I am wrong but after a boxing style strike the striker must retract his fist/arm before striking again. I do not see that as overly efficient.

Nor do I see the power delivery method in a boxing style strike as being overly efficient. Test: stand on one leg in front of your partner, place you fist about 12 inches from his chest or midsection. Without retracting the fist and or placing the other foot on the ground strike him and see the results. IMO, an efficient method of striking can deliver a powerful and penetrating punch within these parameters. None of the boxes I have done this with can generate anything of substance.

There are many methods for striking, each with it's advantages, disadvantages and uses.

Take care,

Mark J.

Jeremy Hulley
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
Mark,
Thanks for asking. Nice to hear from you and I hope that you are doing well.

I have not been much of a puncher during my time in martial arts...too much aikido:D

I'm interested in in hitting as practice that allows me to examine and refine other parts of my training.

If I choose to hit how do I cause the most disruption with the least effort and still maintain the ability to grapple/control my opponent.

I've been working on the Aunkai type strikes that come out of spear thrusting and still spending most of that time working on form, and connection to the ground.

best
Jeremy

Nathan Wallace
02-13-2009, 11:50 AM
I don't know what to say about the purported powerful kicks. I was watching a video (on a DVD) yesterday that showed me a striking example of just how powerful O-Sensei's legs were. So were his kicks from strong legs and technique or were they because he also knew how to use breath exercises to boost the power of his kicks? We'll probably never know.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Which video? Arigato

Mike Sigman
02-13-2009, 02:40 PM
Which video? Arigato

Starting around 7:25 on this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

Mike

Mark Jakabcsin
02-13-2009, 10:48 PM
Mark,
Thanks for asking. Nice to hear from you and I hope that you are doing well.

Jeremy, I am doing well, thanks for asking. Very busy as my company was sold on December 30th, hence all of us need to reprove our worth to the new masters. Plus many of the deals I had in progress are coming to fruition, hence lots of travel. But no complaints it is fun to see months and years of work turning into success.


I'm interested in in hitting as practice that allows me to examine and refine other parts of my training.

You are reading my mind on this one. That was my focus for 2008 and still. My focus in 2008 was how to make the mechanics and principles of striking, stand up grappling and ground grappling the same. That way I could train and improve in all three at the same time. I decided a few years ago to strive for laziness, hence I want everything to be as similar as possible to cut down on the work and effort. :)


If I choose to hit how do I cause the most disruption with the least effort and still maintain the ability to grapple/control my opponent.

I've been working on the Aunkai type strikes that come out of spear thrusting and still spending most of that time working on form, and connection to the ground.


I believe there are multiple methods for causing disruption with the least amount of effort. To some degree this is a personal preference item, to another degree it involves the opportunity to learn from someone of knowledge.

For the method you are pursuing I am of no help. My understanding of the Aunkai spear method is limited to one seminar which means I understand nothing of their method. I will say their frame, form, structure is very similar if not the same as what I do but how that frame, form, structure is used and to what affect seems to be different. But to be honest I do not have the knowledge or experience of the Aunkai method to make any clear distinction.

One profound result of my experience to the Aunkai method was the position Ark continually moved my hips into. The position was the exact same that Vladimir had been doing for years. At this point I said to my self "Dumb axx, you now have two top notch guys showing you the same thing. Perhaps it is time you actually pay attention." For me, by focusing on this correction for a period of time I was able to access many other aspects of my training at a higher level.

The interesting thing to me is that the more I learn about frame, form, structure, the more I learn how to create it from any position, shape or place. I had to learn first by learning from a perfect frame, form, structure, but the more I feel the connections through the body and how to build them easier it is to build that connection regardless of the frame, form, structure.

I will be out in Portland for a day or two next month but unfortunately it does not look like I will make it up your direction. Otherwise I would be happy to strike you. :) For educational purpose of course.

Take care,

Mark J.

TomW
02-14-2009, 04:12 PM
I will be out in Portland for a day or two next month but unfortunately it does not look like I will make it up your direction.

Mark,

You're welcome to come play with us when you're in Portland.

PM me if you're interested.