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Shizentota
02-05-2009, 08:00 AM
Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

:ai: :ki:

Tony Wagstaffe
02-05-2009, 08:57 AM
Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

:ai: :ki:

What do you think? Whats your gut feeling on it? No way of knowing unless you have been thrown by him? I've tried out a few of these type of so called sensei who could throw their ukes and assistants with this no touch stuff, all very strange how they could throw them..... but couldn't throw me??
Maybe these uki just deluded themselves into being thrown? In respect to their sensei they just throw themselves?
Its been known to happen....!!!

So I remain healthily sceptical and rational and do not allude to this kind of thing....

Tony

sorokod
02-05-2009, 09:12 AM
I am sure that this kind of practice develops a wonderful ukemi:

What follows next is known as atogeiko (after practice) and is a time for students to approach their sensei (teacher) and senpai (senior students) for ukemi. The average student will receive anywhere from 20 to 100 throws at a time, depending on their ability. This practice, while physically demanding, is invaluable for their progress as it develops suppleness, sensitivity and inner weight. Once fatigued, they are no longer able to resist their partner's movement and thus, begin to move naturally and freely with no concept of mind, in accordance with Aikido principles.

from an AKI website: http://www.aikidosydneycity.com/aikidokenkyukai.html

Shizentota
02-05-2009, 09:29 AM
I have been thrown by him, and also try to do the same, (sometimes sensei make groups of people an let us experiment on that)

I can say, that for this kind of work UKE has to be very very very sensitive, I you stand there with a felling of "I am the great UKe nobody can moove me" of course nobody will moove you.

Instead of that, when you open your heart body and mind you start to feel the ki that is been proyecting over you.

When Sensei teach us this, you make groups of 5 up to 10 people, then one stand in front and try to moove the others, rather than moove is better to say "gather" .

I can say that if you are in front of the line you can feel the ki coming to you, but when you are at the end of the row yo just feell your partners moove so you moove too.

But I see this as a reaction of the ki that was extended over us.

Like a car crash in a highway, You may no be the first one that crashed, but one car crash other and after several crashes it gets to you.

So you can say that the origin of this reaction is the first crash.

grondahl
02-05-2009, 09:59 AM
Whats the point of the exercise if just maintaining an immovable mind negates the possibility of success?

Or is the point of the exercise to not be moved?

Ron Tisdale
02-05-2009, 10:42 AM
I've never trained with Takeda Sensei, so I have no idea what his uke do or don't do, or how it feels to be thrown by him.

I have, however, felt one of his 6th dan students, a Kirisawa Sensei. I have trained with him a bit when he is in the PA area from time to time, and so have some of my friends trained in Shotokan karate.

We have never had to "jump" or "tank" for him.

Best,
Ron

mathewjgano
02-05-2009, 10:51 AM
Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

:ai: :ki:

I'm not familiar with Takeda Shihan, but from what I can see, people generally dislike no-touch exercises because they don't think it works on physical ability...like rowing a boat without a paddle.
I think when you imagine a blade or stick in the hands of nage, no-touch makes more sense. I think it also seems like a good supplementary exercise for developing ukemi.

ChrisMoses
02-05-2009, 11:03 AM
I can say, that for this kind of work UKE has to be very very very sensitive, I you stand there with a felling of "I am the great UKe nobody can moove me" of course nobody will moove you.

Instead of that, when you open your heart body and mind you start to feel the ki that is been proyecting over you.

When Sensei teach us this, you make groups of 5 up to 10 people, then one stand in front and try to moove the others, rather than moove is better to say "gather" .

I can say that if you are in front of the line you can feel the ki coming to you, but when you are at the end of the row yo just feell your partners moove so you moove too.

But I see this as a reaction of the ki that was extended over us.



As I've mentioned in other threads, I have been thrown by Takeda Sensei and trained with him on several occasions including at his home dojo. I simply don't buy this kind of demonstration or exercise. I believe it encourages students to buy into a groupthink mentality. Get a group of six students from other lineages, line them up with earplugs and blindfolds and then I might consider something is actually going on. Until then, this is delusion.

mathewjgano
02-05-2009, 11:49 AM
I believe it encourages students to buy into a groupthink mentality. Get a group of six students from other lineages, line them up with earplugs and blindfolds and then I might consider something is actually going on. Until then, this is delusion.

Would you say the delusion is the idea that uke somehow isn't cooperating? If so, what if the practice is done with the firm knowledge (by everyone involved) that uke can simply not respond?
I understand why this topic gets the bad press that it does after watching a lot of Youtube videos, not the least of which is the famous "MMA vs Kiai master," http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
but I don't see why all no-touch practice equates to delusion...assuming that's even what you're saying here.

Joe McParland
02-05-2009, 12:28 PM
I have not trained with this group, but I have been to a seminar or two with no-touch type stuff. There definitely was a "the emperor has no clothes" aspect to it. People walking up to grab nage, say on the lapels. Nage shifts his menacing gaze at you, steering uke off course. The "best" ukes---you know, the "most sensitive"---are off-balanced and roll away.

Huh?

Perhaps I'm a primitive aiki-Neanderthal, but the only pressure I felt as a visitor was whether or not I would be the fellow to just walk up and grab him.

Now, this is distinct from other "no-touch throws" I've experienced, such as the "Holy shit! There's a fist coming at my face!!" variant of some kokyunages as well as the "WTF?! He was just here a second ago!"-type of kokyunages handling those seriously committed off-balanced attacks. It's also different from the in-bred group type throws which look magical, but really, all of those ukes remember the bloody nose they got when they didn't move just so.

Who knows?

I'm all for realizing that the encounter has started before actual contact, and even that there's associated energy in the intent. I can see that we were practicing something akin to "admitting no opening," forcing uke to re-evaluate his approach. A big loopy forward roll off to the side though? Nah.

NagaBaba
02-05-2009, 12:35 PM
I've never trained with Takeda Sensei, so I have no idea what his uke do or don't do, or how it feels to be thrown by him.

I have, however, felt one of his 6th dan students, a Kirisawa Sensei. I have trained with him a bit when he is in the PA area from time to time, and so have some of my friends trained in Shotokan karate.

We have never had to "jump" or "tank" for him.

Best,
Ron
So Ron, he was able to throw you from a distance ....hmhmh... lets say .....10 feet? :eek: :freaky:

DonMagee
02-05-2009, 12:45 PM
I'm all for no touch drills. For example we will do a sprawl drill where one person changes levels like they are about to shoot a take down and the other person 2 feet away sprawls.

This is not a no touch take down, this is a drill designed to help teach a good sprawl. It is one of many. The difference is that everyone knows that is what this is from the onset. Even those watching the class. There is no question if it is a mystical force or a practice drill.

It seems to me that it would be fairly easy to clear up. Anyone just ask the guy?

I personally don't buy no touch knock outs or no touch throws. I've had guys try it around me and it has not yet worked. I've even been scolded for not responding. (Things like "you should put your hand up because I would of hit you in the face.". Never mind the fact they were two feet away.)

I believe a faint can have a effect similar to the no touch throw. A good swipe by the face can drive the head back or raise an arm, etc. But I don't buy defeating a real attacker from 3 feet away without touching them. And I won't buy it until it happens to me.

grondahl
02-05-2009, 12:52 PM
Did Kirisawa sensei do stuff like shown in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y

I've never trained with Takeda Sensei, so I have no idea what his uke do or don't do, or how it feels to be thrown by him.

I have, however, felt one of his 6th dan students, a Kirisawa Sensei. I have trained with him a bit when he is in the PA area from time to time, and so have some of my friends trained in Shotokan karate.

We have never had to "jump" or "tank" for him.

Best,
Ron

ChrisMoses
02-05-2009, 12:58 PM
Would you say the delusion is the idea that uke somehow isn't cooperating? If so, what if the practice is done with the firm knowledge (by everyone involved) that uke can simply not respond?
I understand why this topic gets the bad press that it does after watching a lot of Youtube videos, not the least of which is the famous "MMA vs Kiai master," http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
but I don't see why all no-touch practice equates to delusion...assuming that's even what you're saying here.

I think the OP is referring to some of the comments in this thread. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15185&highlight=takeda+yoshinobu)

Check out this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y) particularly around the 1:45 mark.

There are real "no-touch" throws out there in my experience. These typically involve timing, physiology and psychology. Don Angier for instance has a concept of "the wall" that can result in a no/minimal touch throw. Standing there and willing a group of people to fall over is not, in my oh so humble opinion, a reasonable example of a no-touch throw. It's groupthink and behavioral conditioning.

Ron Tisdale
02-05-2009, 01:33 PM
So Ron, he was able to throw you from a distance ....hmhmh... lets say .....10 feet? :eek: :freaky:

Nope, but then, he didn't try to! :D

Best,
Ron

Tony Wagstaffe
02-05-2009, 01:57 PM
I have been thrown by him, and also try to do the same, (sometimes sensei make groups of people an let us experiment on that)

I can say, that for this kind of work UKE has to be very very very sensitive, I you stand there with a felling of "I am the great UKe nobody can moove me" of course nobody will moove you.

Instead of that, when you open your heart body and mind you start to feel the ki that is been proyecting over you.

When Sensei teach us this, you make groups of 5 up to 10 people, then one stand in front and try to moove the others, rather than moove is better to say "gather" .

I can say that if you are in front of the line you can feel the ki coming to you, but when you are at the end of the row yo just feell your partners moove so you moove too.

But I see this as a reaction of the ki that was extended over us.

Like a car crash in a highway, You may no be the first one that crashed, but one car crash other and after several crashes it gets to you.

So you can say that the origin of this reaction is the first crash.


A good uke doesn't throw himself just to make his sensei look good..... Its B.S. and always will be no matter how much "Ki" is being used!! Just the usual party tricks as far as I'm concerned and as you say you have to be very, very, very sensitive to your sensei's movement..... maybe too sensitive??
I would say that you come into the delusional, over cooperative type of aikidoka......The category that gets aikido its ridicule and critism.....
But, if you are into this type of "aikido" and just want to be part of the collusion then who am I to stop you?
Your choice, your problem when somebody comes along one day and destroys your delusion, which will happen one day if you are lucky!!

Tony

Shizentota
02-05-2009, 02:17 PM
In AKI training we put a special attention on UKES work.
I you just stop your attack (Meaning the intention to enter in nage's center) the attack loose its LIFE and TRUE.

It become a struggle, and in this duality their's no aikido.

The attacks are very commitment.

It is a different tipe of trainning, with different purpose.

:)

Ron Tisdale
02-05-2009, 02:57 PM
So what do you do when someone strikes through your center without committing their balance?

And yes, I have met both trained and untrained people who do that.

Best,
Ron

Marc Abrams
02-05-2009, 02:58 PM
Watching those clips was watching conditioned attackers who did not attack with any real intent to attack. Their ukemi was self-imposed and collusive in nature.

Teaching sensitivity to energy should be an important aspect of training, but not if it is learning how to take an unrealistic dive. I have genuinely tried to grab Okamoto Sensei (Daitoryu Roppokai) and this 82 year old man with a slight, almost imperceptible move had me on the way down to the ground. I have tried to kick and punch Ushiro Sensei (Shindoryu Ushiro Karate) and having been sensitized to energy knew that I was moving into a world of hurt, but I WOULD NOT take a dive. I have adjusted strike vectors and have done ukemi to avoid further strikes from him to minimize the hurt. Both of these guys have the real stuff. NONE OF IT is the "no touch" collusion that people develop as a unhealthy byproduct of energy sensitivity training.

My students get an earful from me each and every time they attack in an insincere manner, or they take ukemi in an insincere manner. This teaches bad habits that only become realized when it is too late! I spent an awful lot of time focusing in on the fundamentals of energy work in my teaching of Aikido, because when that foundation is there, techniques REALLY WORK!

It is most unfortunate that good emphasis on the energy fundamentals of our art so often times get mixed in with collusion exercises that lead to people getting hurt when a real attacker does not play by the collusion rule book.

Just my 2 cents!

Marc Abrams

BritishAikido@ntlworld.
02-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Tony Wagstaffe sums this issue up very well for me.

One of my dan grades attended a seminar where a well known British AikiKai Shihan was teaching, my dan grade, unlike the rest did not float around for him as his own students did, the Shihan was angry and accused my student " I cannot use you, as you are not harmonising with me !!!" my student replied " with respect Sensei, I thought you would harmonise with me, as I am nage ? ".

I had lunch with TK Chiba Sensei recently, he spoke of the early days of Aikido, to my surprise he said " Aikido today had become watered down" I replied " I would say it has become vapourised Sensei "...that made him smile.

Henry Ellis
http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido
http://www.aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net

Walter Martindale
02-05-2009, 04:49 PM
The few shihan I've seen and or felt get quite cranky when uke throws himself or herself without the real need to take ukemi. Essentially, if he hasn't got you (they always do, though), don't fall. One shihan was demonstrating nikkyo (nikkajo) and told uke to not go down to the ground when the technique wasn't "on" yet. Uke kept anticipating the movement to avoid the pain, rather than taking as much as he could and exploring his limits. When the pin came on, there was a considerable amount of exploring limits went on while the uke was tapping, and tapping, and tapping. Nothing broke or got injured, but some limits sure were explored.
Some of the "no touch" ukemi is as others point out - WTF, that fist is coming so I'd best hit the ground. That's ukemi too - protecting the self...
W

mathewjgano
02-05-2009, 06:18 PM
I think the OP is referring to some of the comments in this thread. (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15185&highlight=takeda+yoshinobu)

Check out this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltf6-Qqc40Y) particularly around the 1:45 mark.
Oh ok, i see. I thought he meant more generally speaking. Have you ever heard Takeda sensei offer some kind of explanation? It does look like a great workout for uke.
There are real "no-touch" throws out there in my experience. These typically involve timing, physiology and psychology.
That's basically my understanding of it as well.

Tony Wagstaffe
02-06-2009, 05:23 AM
Tony Wagstaffe sums this issue up very well for me.

One of my dan grades attended a seminar where a well known British AikiKai Shihan was teaching, my dan grade, unlike the rest did not float around for him as his own students did, the Shihan was angry and accused my student " I cannot use you, as you are not harmonising with me !!!" my student replied " with respect Sensei, I thought you would harmonise with me, as I am nage ? ".

I had lunch with TK Chiba Sensei recently, he spoke of the early days of Aikido, to my surprise he said " Aikido today had become watered down" I replied " I would say it has become vapourised Sensei "...that made him smile.

Henry Ellis
http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido
http://www.aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net

Henry Ellis Sensei,
Now that IS a very good description of a category that we should now call "Vaporised Aikido" :hypno: :crazy:
The art of self defence without touching....
I somehow get the feeling there would be a lot of takers for it! ;)
I did find that quite amusing....:D Thank you
Kind Regards
Tony

Abasan
02-06-2009, 06:05 AM
With respect,

I've participated in Shihan's seminar quite recently and I would like to say that it has taught me a number of things. Perhaps not even a fifth of what Shihan wanted to share but at least some of those things I could comprehend with my limited ability and experience at that point in time.

To say that the no touch throws are technique would be a waste of breath. It really shouldn't be described as a throw really I would think. To me its more of a training methodology.

Gathering is one of the basic concepts imparted. Not pull or push, but bringing uke into yourself. Being one with him in mind, body and spirit. Uniting for one moment and then letting him go his way.

Shihan's aikido is soft but it is powerful. If of course you go to his class to oppose him, you will lose the opportunity to learn another aspect of aikido. The kokoro musubi aspect that you don't get anywhere else. Its too bad really, since he won't bother to train with you. Not because he can't 'throw' you. With more physical aiki and musubi I don't think you will be able to resist his throws.

Seriously though, if you like to have more physical aspects in your training go ahead and practice that way. Doesn't mean that you're wrong. And don't take at face value things you don't really understand from a cursory observation. Its really better to at least try to understand the meaning behind Shihan's method of training.

Regards.

Marc Abrams
02-06-2009, 07:45 AM
With respect,

I've participated in Shihan's seminar quite recently and I would like to say that it has taught me a number of things. Perhaps not even a fifth of what Shihan wanted to share but at least some of those things I could comprehend with my limited ability and experience at that point in time.

To say that the no touch throws are technique would be a waste of breath. It really shouldn't be described as a throw really I would think. To me its more of a training methodology.

Gathering is one of the basic concepts imparted. Not pull or push, but bringing uke into yourself. Being one with him in mind, body and spirit. Uniting for one moment and then letting him go his way.

Shihan's aikido is soft but it is powerful. If of course you go to his class to oppose him, you will lose the opportunity to learn another aspect of aikido. The kokoro musubi aspect that you don't get anywhere else. Its too bad really, since he won't bother to train with you. Not because he can't 'throw' you. With more physical aiki and musubi I don't think you will be able to resist his throws.

Seriously though, if you like to have more physical aspects in your training go ahead and practice that way. Doesn't mean that you're wrong. And don't take at face value things you don't really understand from a cursory observation. Its really better to at least try to understand the meaning behind Shihan's method of training.

Regards.

Ahmad:

You make assumptions about people you have never met. I am not shooting down the importance of solid Ki training and the ability of both nage and uke to be continuously sensitized to each other's energy. What we are responding to is a manner of taking ukemi that develops habits that would result in somebody getting hurt if he/she were to do that in a real-life attack situation. HOW YOU PRACTICE IS HOW YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY RESPOND IF YOU REALLY HAD TO USE YOUR STUFF TO PROTECT YOURSELF. There are a good number of us who train and teach in a manner that emphasizes good energy (soft is a bad description in my book), yet do not allow habits to form that can really be dangerous.

I will sum it up simply. Apply the "school of hard knocks test" to your Aikido. Have somebody really try and strike you. If your Aikido works fine, if it does not, you have a wealth of information that you can use to help make your Aikido really work, regardless of the useless tags (eg. "soft", "hard", "medium rare".....)

Marc Abrams

Nathan Pereira
02-06-2009, 08:49 AM
You don't need aikido to have those skills. This guy is the daddy of
no touch takedowns. I BELIEVE , I BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

Shizentota
02-06-2009, 12:23 PM
I think that the topic took other way.

The thing here,
more than compare and determinate wich ways of aikido is effective or not in the real life, is how uke energy blends with nageīs center.

If you stop the flow of your energy (Just to test nage technique) the you are already in the duality of the situation.
When you understand that, then your work as UKE become very important, you don't need to make fakes UKEMIS, but keep the moovement ALIVE.
Keeping the flow and the intention to enter all time to nagesīs center will develop your HARA, when you do this for some time then your keiko become a MISOGI.

Many people criticise our way to be UKE,
I say....why practice aikido just as nage? you`'ll be wasting the half time of your practice.

Shizentota
02-06-2009, 12:26 PM
You don't need aikido to have those skills. This guy is the daddy of
no touch takedowns. I BELIEVE , I BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

LOL jajajajajajaja I believe it too :D

Marc Abrams
02-06-2009, 12:50 PM
I think that the topic took other way.

The thing here,
more than compare and determinate wich ways of aikido is effective or not in the real life, is how uke energy blends with nageīs center.

If you stop the flow of your energy (Just to test nage technique) the you are already in the duality of the situation.
When you understand that, then your work as UKE become very important, you don't need to make fakes UKEMIS, but keep the moovement ALIVE.
Keeping the flow and the intention to enter all time to nagesīs center will develop your HARA, when you do this for some time then your keiko become a MISOGI.

Many people criticise our way to be UKE,
I say....why practice aikido just as nage? you`'ll be wasting the half time of your practice.

Manuel:

You are misunderstanding what I am saying. In my way of thinking, ukemi has three levels. All of them involve keeping a energy connection to the nage. At the first level, the connection is used to safely roll, land,.... from a technique. The next level up is to be able to use that connection to neutralize the nage's energy so that the technique cannot work. At the highest level, the connection is used to seamlessly reverse technique.

As I see it, the problem with that video is that the uke will never be able to advance to higher levels of receiving energy. Worse than that, the connection at an energy level is being used to fall in an unrealistic and collusive manner. In order to advance your training, the fundamentals of movement remain the same. Keeping your center, your balance, your posture are all prerequisites to be able to use energy to do more than just fall on the ground.

My training and my teaching all involve both the uke and nage having to be at work full-time in training. This can be done so that Aikido remains a MARTIAL art and not devolved into some movement-based, sensitivity training in which collusion leads to delusion which leads to somebody getting hurt. Reality is the ultimate trump card. If what you do is training to create something other than what could be called a martial art, then label it as such. For the life of me, I cannot understand the purpose of training someone to respond with an energy connection in a way that is unrealistic and therefore dangerous. You could train safely with that same level of connectedness without having to take dives.

Marc Abrams

Shizentota
02-06-2009, 05:53 PM
I understand all that you said, I kept this martial spirit in my keiko, but I also investigate the moovement, the connection of each hara.
And if you dont let go all, you could never be one with the universe.
I think O sensei was traying to teach a way of trasmite that, and that way took the form of aikido, but we cannot forget what was the original purpose of this art.

:)

Ketsan
02-06-2009, 06:29 PM
You don't need aikido to have those skills. This guy is the daddy of
no touch takedowns. I BELIEVE , I BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

Such a good tune..............such a bad use.:D

Dan O'Day
02-06-2009, 07:31 PM
This is always a tough issue to explain....and to understand.

Maybe examining the root...what is a martial art? What has it been? What is it today? What might it be tomorrow?

Understanding that we live in a constantly changing universe, should a given martial art - or anything - remain unchanged?

For me Itry to keep it simple. Way of harmonizing with the energy of the universe. Aikido, a way to reconcile the world.

If it's about kicking ass and being "real" with strikes and throws, then what is it? Sounds like plain old bar fighting to me.

How real need one be with a strike? "Hey Dude! Look at that! A bird on the dojo ceiling!" Bam! I just broke two of your ribs with my fist. Being a nice "soft" uke, I didn't rupture your kidney.

Is that what it's about? Because something carrys a label as a "martial art" does that mean it need be something more than an art of awareness?

The art of being prepared to kick ass in an alley someday when I'm attacked? The art of GUN would suffice for that.

Reconciling the world. I don't do much reconciling when I'm busy doing damage to my fellows on this planet.

What if...what if one's aikido developed to the point where attacks simply did not manifest. They just didn't. Would that be mystical? Is quantum mechanics mystical?

Was the concept of a round earth once mystical?
Or a planet which orbited the sun versus the other way around?

In my aikido training every uke and every nage is different. Part of the art of awareness for me is knowing this. And knowing that every moment in time is different. Certainly, as uke and nage, I intend sincere strikes and throws.

On some occasions it is obvious to be slow or to be fast. Sometimes I falter, I may read a situation incorrectly, but that's ok because it's training and not fighting. The training is my study.

Whole body connection is my study. Awareness is my study. Peace is my study. Harmony
is my study.

But gauging my aikido or that of anyone else's based on some measure of physicality? Nope. That's not part of reconciling the world in my mind.

Back a number of years ago during my...ahem...uh, adventurous youth, my buddies and I used to measure everything on physicalities. It didn't matter one bit whether you cold cocked someone or they sucker punched you. Whovever ended up on two feet was the winner and was "right". And the other? Loser and was "wrong".

I'm sure glad I don't live in that ridiculous manner anymore.

wideawakedreamer
02-06-2009, 08:20 PM
You don't need aikido to have those skills. This guy is the daddy of
no touch takedowns. I BELIEVE , I BELIEVE!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

I'm SAVED! AMEN! :D

jennifer paige smith
02-07-2009, 12:07 AM
This is always a tough issue to explain....and to understand.



"Up the ladder" is relative to where you are on the ladder. The ground is always in the same place. Problem solved:D .

Takahama
02-08-2009, 04:03 AM
Here is a demonstration of some excellent no touch throws to be found in the unusual backdrop of the English Football League. Impressive extention of ki.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNFwJzSVdRw&eurl=http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=388158&feature=player_embedded

oisin bourke
02-08-2009, 06:22 AM
Hi, I am a member from AKI.

I want to know why so many people have a bad reaction about the work that Yoshinobu Takeda Shihan sometimes showed.

They say that Ukes fakes their ukemis, that they are predispose to fall, and other stuff.

So please, anwser, post and feel free to understand and share things, please try to be polite in your comments...
Thanks

:ai: :ki:

IMO

Public demonstrations of the kind exemplified by Takeda are killing Japanese budo. After the no touch demo he exhibited, he should have been ripped uo by his sempai.

If that seems a tad extreme. it's only because I care.

Dan O'Day
02-08-2009, 02:58 PM
"Up the ladder" is relative to where you are on the ladder. The ground is always in the same place. Problem solved:D .

Wow! That threw me from near 1000 miles distant!

I can't believe there'd be any non-believers out there now.

Well done, Jen sensei.
;)

jennifer paige smith
02-08-2009, 03:13 PM
Well done, Jen sensei.
;)

Aw, shucks.:o

oisin bourke
02-08-2009, 04:49 PM
IMO

Public demonstrations of the kind exemplified by Takeda are killing Japanese budo. After the no touch demo he exhibited, he should have been ripped up by his sempai.

If that seems a tad extreme, it's only because I care.

That needed a spelling correction, sorry.

Chris Farnham
02-08-2009, 09:43 PM
I know that the translation :ai: and :ai: :ki: has been argued at length on this site and I don't claim to have anything more than an absolute beginner's understanding of the Japanese language, but a Japanese friend of mine was recently talking about the kanji for :ai:. She is not an Aikidoka but she is a native Japanese speaker and she translated it as joining. My American sensei spoke at length about how in Aikido it is both Uke and Nage's job to maintain connection. He also said that he heard from bothYamada sensei and Chiba sensei that even when he was old and frail that O sensei would give his ukes some nice friendly atemi if they did not maintain contact. Maybe I am being too literal in my thinking and there is some kind of ki connection being made in this no touch stuff, but how can there be a joining of energies or connection if there is no contact what so ever?

Shizentota
02-09-2009, 09:15 AM
Don't misunderstood takeda sensei exercise, he does this just as an excersice. His practice is strong, and soft and I am sure if you don't take ukemi you will be hurt.

If you notice, some Shihan works look very similar.

Take a look on Endo shihan latest work.

I think that after many years of practice you start to develop such connection than you dont need anymore to take off uke's arm.
They feel the attack and the moovement before it manifest in a fisical way.

Firts we start with the SOLID way, then you technique become LIQUID and then GASEOUS.

But the principle is the same, aikido is a tool to feel the true spirit of Kanngara. Wich is the goal of many DO arts.

:-)

raul rodrigo
02-09-2009, 09:57 AM
If you notice, some Shihan works look very similar. Take a look on Endo shihan latest work.
:-)

You mean Endo does no-touch waza too? I'd like to see some video of that, if you know of any.

ChrisMoses
02-09-2009, 10:29 AM
Don't misunderstood takeda sensei exercise, he does this just as an excersice. His practice is strong, and soft and I am sure if you don't take ukemi you will be hurt.


The real problem (for me) here is the assumptions going into this kind of demonstration/exercise/shenanigans. Takeda Sensei's students have a HUGE amount of faith in their teacher. A good friend of mine once experienced a nearly hysterical tearful rant from one of his senior guys in North America when someone at the dinner table referred to him simply as "Takeda" and not "Takeda Sensei". This senior guy went so far as to say that they (all of Takeda's students) not only owed him for what he had taught them about aikido, but for *Everything* good about their lives. Now, if you line up someone with that level of devotion 20 feet away from Takeda Sensei and then have Takeda Sensei wave his hand, they probably will feel something. The test is not whether Takeda Sensei can affect a non believer at that distance, but whether *the student* can feel a supposed shift in energies that (they believe) Takeda Sensei is projecting. It's the Emperor's new clothes. If all of your friends and seniors are falling over themselves because they can feel the wave, are you going to be the one who isn't developed enough to sense the power of your teacher? No way, not with the level of devotion you see here.

Now I have felt Takeda Sensei's waza. He has impeccable timing and body structure. I have even been 'no-touch' thrown by him, but we were centimeters away, not feet and it was the same kind of psychological/physiological experience I have had with other very good sensei. By that I mean that they used reflex arcs and other real physical phenomenon to simultaneously put me in weaker and weaker positions while increasing their own potential physical advantage. Then the hammer drops and you find that you can either take the atemi that's coming or you can fall NOW! That's all real understandable stuff. Orgone rings and ki projections across rooms are not in my worldview.

Shizentota
02-09-2009, 03:27 PM
What part of THIS IS A EXCERSICE you dont understand?

He doesnt do that in his waza, he make us do that and show that because he want to expand our mind and spirit beyong the Structure of it.

Maybe we are no prepare for what he is trying to teach us, and I am sure that he is felling this, he dont want to be follow just for inertia.

About the DEVOTION theme,
Is a custom in japan to call every sensei with his name an after the word sensei, its all about REI.
I dont think this is a devotion theme.

SORRY ABOUT THE DE ENDO SENSEI, I mean WATANABE SENSEI.

AND HERE IS THe VIDEO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLmelkgyrw

ChrisMoses
02-09-2009, 03:40 PM
What part of THIS IS A EXCERSICE you dont understand?

He doesnt do that in his waza, he make us do that and show that because he want to expand our mind and spirit beyong the Structure of it.



So is the exercise for him to see if he can move you, or for you to see if you can be moved?

eyrie
02-09-2009, 05:06 PM
Nah, it's an exercise in showing how easily the mind can be led... (double entendre intended). :p

raul rodrigo
02-09-2009, 07:09 PM
Watanabe sensei has been famous/notorious for years in the Aikikai world for his no-touch demonstrations. But until 2008, he was the only senior shihan who did them. I remember being really dismayed seeing Takeda's recent demos where he went over to Watanabe territory.

Shizentota
02-09-2009, 07:22 PM
So is the exercise for him to see if he can move you, or for you to see if you can be moved?

I think It is how far your spirit can go,
for both Nage and Uke.

I dont want to make a comparition between watanabe sensei and takeda sensei I just wanna show their work.

:)

Chris Farnham
02-09-2009, 09:48 PM
I don't know anything about Takeda sensei but I did take one of Watanabe sensei's classes at Hombu and he did no touch jedi force throws the whole time. The students did more or less "regular" technique but the people I worked with seemed to have absolutely no substance behind their waza. Sensei never threw me in class so I can't say anything about the feeling behind his throws. I am afterall a no consequence white belted ikkyu who was just visiting for the day. However, on previous visits to Hombu I did get thrown by the likes of Osawa, Miyamoto, and Masuda sensei's.

I don't want to discount the skill of Watanabe Shihan though, because I occasionally visit the dojo of one of his former students in Nagoya, and he is quite strong( Although he did also study with Chiba sensei for 5 years), and one of his students said that when he took ukemi for Watanabe sensei it was the same as taking ukemi for Sawada sensei. He's the shihan in Nagoya.

oisin bourke
02-09-2009, 10:43 PM
I don't know anything about Takeda sensei but I did take one of Watanabe sensei's classes at Hombu and he did no touch jedi force throws the whole time. The students did more or less "regular" technique but the people I worked with seemed to have absolutely no substance behind their waza. Sensei never threw me in class so I can't say anything about the feeling behind his throws. I am afterall a no consequence white belted ikkyu who was just visiting for the day. However, on previous visits to Hombu I did get thrown by the likes of Osawa, Miyamoto, and Masuda sensei's.

I don't want to discount the skill of Watanabe Shihan though, because I occasionally visit the dojo of one of his former students in Nagoya, and he is quite strong( Although he did also study with Chiba sensei for 5 years), and one of his students said that when he took ukemi for Watanabe sensei it was the same as taking ukemi for Sawada sensei. He's the shihan in Nagoya.

What part of THIS IS A EXCERSICE you dont understand?

He doesnt do that in his waza, he make us do that and show that because he want to expand our mind and spirit beyong the Structure of it....



Hello Manuel,

I don't want to come across as unduly harsh, and each to his/her own, but I think something is rotten in the State of Denmark when these "exercises" are publicly demonstrated. Chris Moses has previously posted a video of Takeda throwing a line of his students fro the other end of the mat (in the Budokan?) And it's insulting, quite frankly, both to the audience who are "expected" to applaud something so obviously staged, and to his fellow aikidoka who are doing their best to pare back self deception through shugyo.

There is something to no touch throws as exemplified by Ushiro, Okamoto, Endo Sensei et al. I've experienced similar techniques myself. Personally, I don't think they should be publicly demonstrated either, but I accept they are valid spects of the arts,

Takeda's demonstration is something else. I've been at demonstrations where martial artsist who have dedicated decades to their arts have been followed in demos by members of the Nishino ryu, who do similar no touch things and send their students flying around the room. It’s embarrassing and it cheapens Budo and the idea of recognising one’s limitations and then making constant effort to improve.

I think the big question for Aikikai people is why is this sort of thing tolerated by the senior Shihan? What are the Doshu. Tada, Tamura et al thinking when this stuff is publicly demonstrated? Are the type of people likely to be attracted by this kind of demonstration really the people to carry Aikido forward?

This is really important nowadays as you have MMA BJJ on the one hand providing a reasonably healthy outlet for aggression and the competitive spirit and there is the growing availability of training in the internal aspects of the martial arts from the likes of Mike Sigman and others. I still believe Aikido and Japanese Budo has a lot to offer, but the Takeda/Wanatabe phenomenon indictates a trend towards decadence. Sorry about the rant, but it’s an important debate.

Dan O'Day
02-10-2009, 12:27 AM
Aikido is non-competitive. I would hope those in positions to speak for large amounts of practitioners of the art feel the same way about the various organizations of aikido.

As a whole and in relation to the many other martial arts.

With regard to the original point of this thread...the no-touch exercise I have found very useful on the few occasions I have experienced it. As with eyes closed exercises, etc.

It's all training.

If I wanted to fight I'd be doing something else.

Peter Goldsbury
02-10-2009, 01:23 AM
I think the big question for Aikikai people is why is this sort of thing tolerated by the senior Shihan? What are the Doshu. Tada, Tamura et al thinking when this stuff is publicly demonstrated? Are the type of people likely to be attracted by this kind of demonstration really the people to carry Aikido forward?

I think there are several answers to these questions. First, it is certainly not for want of being told. In meetings I myself have told the present Doshu that such demonstrations are actually a source of scandal (I did not put it quite like this), to be told, in turn, about the unique features of the All-Japan Demonstration. It is, first and foremost, a 'gathering of the clans' (again, Doshu did not put it quite like this), showing the general strength of the Aikikai. (I also think, as a matter of fact, that some sections of the Aikikai would be angered by such opinions coming from a foreigner, who is not supposed to know about the deeper aspects of Japanese wa). :confused:

This is actually the second answer. For the Aikikai appears to think in numbers and likes to proclaim the steady increase in the number of participants in each successive year. I think there are always well over 5,000 people actually demonstrating. Even at the IAF Congress last year, what struck the Aikikai most was that 1,500 people had gone down to Tanabe (including 700 from overseas). Actually, I met your own teacher at the farewell reception. I know him from a previous meeting at one of Stanley Pranin's demonstrations in Tokyo. I think his own teacher was demonstrating Daito-ryu on that occasion. So, questions about the actual demonstrations are not usually considered.

The third answer is a corollary of the second. The Aikikai is still a major binding force, in the sense that it has retained nationwide allegiances since the departure of Koichi Tohei, by offering a vast measure of freedom to individual shihans. Tamura Shihan has no say whatever in the workings of Japanese aikido, but neither Doshu nor Tada Shihan would ever presume to tell someone of Mr Takeda's stature how or how not to perform a demonstration. It simply would never enter their heads to do so.

Of course, some people vote with their feet. I have fond memories of Arikawa Sadateru Shihan, who gave up giving such demonstrations many years ago, coming and sitting next to me and giving his own trenchant opinions about the demonstrations, including those of the 7th and 8th dan shihans.

Best wishes,

PAG

oisin bourke
02-10-2009, 02:12 AM
Aikido is non-competitive. I would hope those in positions to speak for large amounts of practitioners of the art feel the same way about the various organizations of aikido.

As a whole and in relation to the many other martial arts.

With regard to the original point of this thread...the no-touch exercise I have found very useful on the few occasions I have experienced it. As with eyes closed exercises, etc.

It's all training.

If I wanted to fight I'd be doing something else.

Hello Dan,

FWIW, the style of Daito Ryu I practice is a "soft" style. I'm well aware that it's considered in some quarters to be overly cooperative and likewise we also value developing sensitivity etc.
Equally, I regard Kyudo, Iaido and Naginata as fine forms of Budo and self cultivation, so I don't value Budo according to fighting ability per se. I do think that Budo should involve some level of Shugyo, which I define as training that challenges your limitations and the delusions we all harbour. No touch throws from across the mat demos by Shihan doesn't fit into my idea of Shugyo, I'm afraid.

oisin bourke
02-10-2009, 02:20 AM
I think there are several answers to these questions. First, it is certainly not for want of being told. In meetings I myself have told the present Doshu that such demonstrations are actually a source of scandal (I did not put it quite like this), to be told, in turn, about the unique features of the All-Japan Demonstration. It is, first and foremost, a 'gathering of the clans' (again, Doshu did not put it quite like this), showing the general strength of the Aikikai. (I also think, as a matter of fact, that some sections of the Aikikai would be angered by such opinions coming from a foreigner, who is not supposed to know about the deeper aspects of Japanese wa). :confused:

This is actually the second answer. For the Aikikai appears to think in numbers and likes to proclaim the steady increase in the number of participants in each successive year. I think there are always well over 5,000 people actually demonstrating. Even at the IAF Congress last year, what struck the Aikikai most was that 1,500 people had gone down to Tanabe (including 700 from overseas). Actually, I met your own teacher at the farewell reception. I know him from a previous meeting at one of Stanley Pranin's demonstrations in Tokyo. I think his own teacher was demonstrating Daito-ryu on that occasion. So, questions about the actual demonstrations are not usually considered.

The third answer is a corollary of the second. The Aikikai is still a major binding force, in the sense that it has retained nationwide allegiances since the departure of Koichi Tohei, by offering a vast measure of freedom to individual shihans. Tamura Shihan has no say whatever in the workings of Japanese aikido, but neither Doshu nor Tada Shihan would ever presume to tell someone of Mr Takeda's stature how or how not to perform a demonstration. It simply would never enter their heads to do so.

Of course, some people vote with their feet. I have fond memories of Arikawa Sadateru Shihan, who gave up giving such demonstrations many years ago, coming and sitting next to me and giving his own trenchant opinions about the demonstrations, including those of the 7th and 8th dan shihans.

Best wishes,

PAG

Hello Peter,

Iida Sensei has told me about meeting yourself and spoke very warmly about you. I look forward to meeting you someday.

Just to be clear, the views posted are purely my own and don't reflect my Sensei's views whatsoever

I also appreciate, it's easier to be critical from the outside. Still, this is a phenomenon that I've seen in Aikido, DR, Karate and other arts. I personally think it's a growing problem and I find it depressing.

My best regards,

Oisin Bourke

dalen7
02-10-2009, 03:18 AM
The third answer is a corollary of the second. The Aikikai is still a major binding force, in the sense that it has retained nationwide allegiances since the departure of Koichi Tohei, by offering a vast measure of freedom to individual shihans.

Best wishes,

PAG

I have spent the past couple of days doing quite a bit of research about the origins of Aikido and the development of its 6 main branches. (Shodokan, Yoseikan, Yoshinkan, Shin Shin, Iwama, & Aikiai.)

Each of the listed branches above, bring a unique aspect to Aikido.
Aikikai is now trying to give a unified face to Aikido - and as you appeared to put it, is letting the shihans who remain within their umbrella the freedom to do as they see fit.

I would say that this should have been done with Tohei, but in researching, they did retract and offer him to teach his 'ki', but he said it was, 'to late'. (Was good to read some of the interviews with him...some insight into the inner workings of the founding of Aikido and its establishment, and blowing past a bunch of the mystical stuff. Even Tohei said people that learned from him took the practical aspects of 'ki' and tried to make something mystical out of it.)

O Sensei taught something, and it changed over the years.
He didnt start with a finalized style, which is why it is so split to this day. (But that is stating the obvious.)

Personally I find that each of the branches have aspects that I would want to incorporate into my training: And Aikikai are in the unique position, (perhaps), to still be able to unify the strengths within each of these to unify Aikido.

Truth be said, it probably will not go beyond its efforts it is now - yet, if it is 'clumsy' it can backfire. (i.e., is the 'ki' your teaching got a point? If so can you be clear what is being done in the demo so it can be reproduced by anyone, as Tohei pointed out?)

There is merit in Iwamas weapons training, and Toheis version of 'ki' - if understood out of its mystical mumbo jumbo.

There is merit in placing correct emphasis on footwork, etc. like in Yoshinkan - while keeping your flow. (It will improve flow.)

There is merit in mixing martial arts as with Yoseikan, and even a place for Shodokan...even if its not sport, but some heavier Randori, etc.

Aikikai could do what they are now - have a basic outline for testing empty hand. Then have modulars that people can choose to add to their training.

In a way that is what should have happened with Tohei, and could have happened with ki. Perhaps, slowly the strengths of all the above would become part of the basics as it evolves.

Same with weapons...have a weapons as extra, yet ironically - doing weapons can help with your form...Even 'ki' Tohei said weapons is part of Aikido.

I dont think many people, at least from the outside, get Toheis version of ki - but it definitely is something a lot more practical, albeit misunderstood.

So there is great potential here...but for now, it is as it is - and this potential of unification exist in us individually.

More and more people seem to be crossing aspects of the various Aikido styles. (At least from what I have seen.)
And eventually this will show itself in the collective organization. :D

True change starts within, so I guess that is the way it happens. :)

peace

dAlen

Peter Goldsbury
02-10-2009, 04:43 AM
I have spent the past couple of days doing quite a bit of research about the origins of Aikido and the development of its 6 main branches. (Shodokan, Yoseikan, Yoshinkan, Shin Shin, Iwama, & Aikiai.)

Each of the listed branches above, bring a unique aspect to Aikido.
Aikikai is now trying to give a unified face to Aikido - and as you appeared to put it, is letting the shihans who remain within their umbrella the freedom to do as they see fit.

Your post prompted me to make clearer here something that perhaps I took too much for granted in my earlier post.

Nearly all the videos of Mr Takeda and Mr Watanabe doing their so-called 'no-touch' throws are taken from the All-Japan Aikido Demonstration held every year in May at the Nippon Budokan in Tokyo.

Although foreigners occasionally appear at this event, it is a gathering of Japanese Aikikai aikido clans and primarily intended for Japanese aikidoists. It is sponsored by the All-Japan Aikido Federation (which is the Aikikai with a democratic fig-leaf) and the Kancho of Yoshinkan and a major shihan of Daito-ryu occasionally participate as guest spectators.

Apart from this, there is no interest whatever in other aikido organizations. I stated that the Aikikai is a major binding force (not, as you put it, attempting to give a 'unified face to aikido'), but I meant this purely within Japan. Japanese Aikikai aikido is still a large and variegated entity, with some groups tracing a lineage right back to the Omoto Dai Nippon Budo Senyokai, of 1932. The Aikikai has a major interest in keeping these clans together. So the All-Japan Demonstration is meant to enhance the 'feel-good' factor about belonging to the Aikikai--and not becoming independent.

The state of aikido abroad is quite another matter and here the Aikikai really does not consider that it has the role of a binding force (except among the organizations and shihans affiliated to the Aikikai). There was a demonstration at the recent IAF Congress. Speaking personally, I do not like aikido demonstrations, since the purpose is usually misunderstood (by the demonstrators, as much as by the spectators). However, on this occasion the setting was truly spectacular--and there was not a single 'no-touch' throw. I was sitting in the front row and was watching very carefully.

Best wishes,

dalen7
02-10-2009, 05:01 AM
Japanese Aikikai aikido is still a large and variegated entity, with some groups tracing a lineage right back to the Omoto Dai Nippon Budo Senyokai, of 1932. The Aikikai has a major interest in keeping these clans together. So the All-Japan Demonstration is meant to enhance the 'feel-good' factor about belonging to the Aikikai--and not becoming independent.

This would make the split with Tohei seem like it should never have happened? No?
Although, after reading the interview, it does seem like after his first 'rejection' it was his choice to separate.

(Just trying to make heads and tales of all this...and Im not even going to bother going past the japanese Shihans and their 'split'...enough to see the root) :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
By unified face, I was implying what you were saying by 'binding force' of the Japanese Aikido organizations...(all the ones I mentioned were Japanese...) Although Im not all that clear of the history of the development of the Aikikai outside of the fact there was O Sensei...and then the second Doshu offered to Tohei initially.
(Who are the different people that popped up suddenly to make these choices?) Anyway, a complex web. :)

Hope that clarifies a bit more where I was coming from.

p.s.s.
Never mind...your right, there is a subtle difference - they are not trying to unify anything...just keep the club together. Got where your coming from now I think.

Carl Thompson
02-10-2009, 11:28 PM
I am after all a no consequence white belted ikkyu

I wouldn't agree with that. :uch:

I do agree with your summary of the Watanabe class though. Just to add, from what I recall from the student of Sawada Shihan who took ukemi from Watanabe, there was talk of the uke being the deciding factor in how these things look.


Firts we start with the SOLID way, then you technique become LIQUID and then GASEOUS.

There's an interesting description of the katai / kotai, yawarakai (solid), ki-no-nagare (liquid) and kitai (gaseous) forms here:

http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html (http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html)

Tony Wagstaffe
02-11-2009, 04:48 AM
In summary, Aikido does require little muscular strength if it is learned correctly, and resistance is not harmonious if it is applied counterproductively. However, muscular power and constructive resistance are vital elements in Aikido training, and constitute stepping stones to higher levels.

Amen!!!!

Tony

Bob Blackburn
02-11-2009, 07:47 AM
There's an interesting description of the katai / kotai, yawarakai (solid), ki-no-nagare (liquid) and kitai (gaseous) forms here:

http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html (http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html)

Good article. That progression is how it has been explained to me as well. Getting there is another story.

Shizentota
02-11-2009, 08:24 AM
I was reading yesterday Saotome sensei book,
he said that O sensei didt pay many attention to the form, he pass from a empty handed techniques to a bokken demostration easily, just to show what was the principle, If he wasn't teaching a form what was teaching?

He used aikido as a tool to teach something else.

After all he was trying to make us better human been.

So, why stop and start to criticize a way of aikido, intead of looking at any form and try to open the heart , mind and body and reach the very meanning of it.

Kannagara no michi

I will said that to unified with GOD you dont need any particular form.

Many road lead to rome.

sorokod
02-11-2009, 09:22 AM
...Many road lead to rome. and even more, don't.

Mike Sigman
02-11-2009, 09:47 AM
Just to toss in my 2 cents. ;)

There's a lot of confusion about the term "ki" because it's really an umbrella term that covers a number of phenomena that are interrelated. But in terms of an attack by an Uke, his force, whether normal strength or "internal" strength can be considered his ki. His intended direction of force, if you can read it well enough in advance, is also his ki.

In the old Asian arts, a legitimate facet of study was that of reading the intended direction of an opponent's attack and then making some feint or other gambit at some distance (not great) before closing in order to "affect Uke's ki". A legitimate "no touch" throw is based around taking advantage of Uke's valid anticipatory response to a maneuver.

If you look at Watanabe's throws, he essentially appears to be working with the legitimate premise of "no touch, lead his ki" methodology, but some of his students appear to overreact and to be looking for an excuse to fall (imagine that! ;) ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaLmelkgyrw

I don't know anything about Watanabe, but his skills look pretty good; i.e., to me he's within the 'legitimate' bounds, all in all. Some of his students too-eagerly overreact for him and personally I think there's too much emphasis on this "anticipatory Aikido" facet, but he appears to try to work valid responses (as much as you can with students who are too used to playing the game and so play along too much).

Where "no touch" becomes illegitimate is when it drifts into the realm of fantastic manipulation at great distances or with maneuvers that shift from accurate attempts to induce movement toward simple psychological cueing from teacher to student. Endo Sensei's demonstrations appear to drift into the fantastic and this sort of stuff grates on one's perceptions. It does degrade an art to see practitioners do this sort of stuff unchallenged. But then, this thread is a bona fide type of challenge to some of the fantasy-Aikido that indeed takes from the overall worth of the art. So all is well.

Best.

Mike Sigman

Mike Sigman
02-11-2009, 10:32 AM
There's an interesting description of the katai / kotai, yawarakai (solid), ki-no-nagare (liquid) and kitai (gaseous) forms here:

http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html (http://www.iwama-aikido.com/resist.html)That's an excellent article, Carl. It's basically about the development from normal strength to ki/kokyu skills and going from static to moving techniques.

There is an interesting implication that a student is expected to go from resistance and muscle toward using correct strength (kokyu ryoku) and then developing technique and correct-strength toward using no-strength (that's a very classical statement). What's interesting about the stated ideas in that article is that a person more or less has to find his own way out of the muscle-puzzle. Too many people never do, so they wind up adjusting their use of muscle to techniques... and that's the common scenario in Aikido (and a number of other arts).

The power of the ki/kokyu skills is very much tied to the power that an Uke/opponent puts out in an attack. There is an old, old saying that essentially says "I cannot beat a wooden man or a brass man, but if he is human I can beat him". The essential idea is that using ki/kokyu skills I can blend with the various generated forces of an opponent, blend my forces with his forces and the combination will defeat the opponent. Since a wooden man and a brass man generate no forces, my ki/kokyu forces offer no real advantage.

Reading of an opponent's forces becomes critical. It goes beyond having a response up your sleeve that is an omote shiho-nage to a shomenuchi. You have to be able to see or feel the actual direction of general-movement force in the opponent and adjust your own internal forces in such a way the the attacking force is neutralized or, better yet, used to initiate the throw/technique that actually defeats Uke.

The body can be trained to instantly analyse and react to an incoming force, even if the force comes from behind. Tohei's "ki tricks" are actually basic training for always being in balance and letting the body "adjust" to any incoming force. At first in your training you just "ground" incoming forces... hence all the "immoveable" aspects of most "ki tests". But the Iwama comments imply the same things that Tohei's ki-tests do. Iwama just uses a different approach to the same core goals.

And of course doing some manipulations to affect Uke's forces before they actually reach Nage is a valid corollary of legitimate Aikido (and many other arts).

I often read old translations about various famous sword duels in the past and it's easy to see how much attention was paid to not giving away your general force directions, controlling the opponent's "ki" by generating your own force/kokyu/ki intentions in certain areas, and so on. "No touch" and "ki throws" are meant to be in these legitimate categories, but once you understand the idea it's pretty easy to spot the people who are making a parody of the legitimate skill, and so on.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

ChrisMoses
02-11-2009, 11:10 AM
Endo Sensei's demonstrations appear to drift into the fantastic and this sort of stuff grates on one's perceptions.

Just a quick correction that the demos in question are of Takeda Sensei not Endo Sensei. I think his name was mistakenly brought up earlier when the OP meant Watanabe Sensei.

BritishAikido@ntlworld.
02-11-2009, 11:44 AM
Mike Sigman
If you look at Watanabe's throws, he essentially appears to be working with the legitimate premise of "no touch, lead his ki" methodology, but some of his students appear to overreact and to be looking for an excuse to fall (imagine that! ).

Mike Sigman makes a valid point, there is often a over reaction from enthusiastic uki's, which is not appreciated by the Sensei.
I recall doing this myself when TK Chiba and I were on Anglia TV 1968 doing an Aikido demonstration. As Sensei threw me, I `took off ` making a l o n g ukemi, As I approached Sensei he just glowered at me and hissed quietly " Mr Ellis, I am most capable of throwing you myself without your help ! " With the next technique I knew exactly what he meant.

Henry Ellis
http://www.aikidoellisvideo.magnify.net

Abasan
02-15-2009, 11:29 AM
Ahmad:

You make assumptions about people you have never met. I am not shooting down the importance of solid Ki training and the ability of both nage and uke to be continuously sensitized to each other's energy. What we are responding to is a manner of taking ukemi that develops habits that would result in somebody getting hurt if he/she were to do that in a real-life attack situation. HOW YOU PRACTICE IS HOW YOU WILL AUTOMATICALLY RESPOND IF YOU REALLY HAD TO USE YOUR STUFF TO PROTECT YOURSELF. There are a good number of us who train and teach in a manner that emphasizes good energy (soft is a bad description in my book), yet do not allow habits to form that can really be dangerous.

I will sum it up simply. Apply the "school of hard knocks test" to your Aikido. Have somebody really try and strike you. If your Aikido works fine, if it does not, you have a wealth of information that you can use to help make your Aikido really work, regardless of the useless tags (eg. "soft", "hard", "medium rare".....)

Marc Abrams

Marc,

I did not intend to make any assumptions about anyone in my last post. Just intended it to be taken as a generalisation if you will.

As for training realistically so that your body ingrains it into a natural habit, I agree wholeheartedly.

Testing your aikido with the school of hard knocks test, I suppose some of us will try regardless and that's ok.

Some people though are not that clever or that intuitive or naturally talented to pick up the knowledge gained from intense practice and mat experience. After all, learning to move is a chore much more when you're trying to harmonise with someone. That can almost be impossible if you don't know what you're doing. So in a way, structured practice is a dumbdowned version of what you should be doing. Practically so because not everyone can do it from the get go. As for Shihan's seminars, I doubt he wanted any greenhorn there, to be unduly influenced by his training methodology. I believe most shihans wants us to start off with the hard form first before moving on to the soft and the invisible.

My sensei himself advised his students to start with daito ryu or yoshinkan first. And Gozo shioda remains one of my key aikido idols. His aikido waza is incredibly 'soft' yet very much practical. His uke's can attest to the serious injuries they take when they're not alive enough to accept his waza. I also believe that without understanding harmony, your body won't be fast or flexible enough to accept his waza even if you've done serious hard and practical training.

I suppose we'll leave it at that and see where our training takes us this next couple of decades.

sorokod
04-23-2010, 08:32 AM
I know that is is an old thread, but the "no touch throws" in this video are pertinent to the discussion. In particular the "uke"s are not fake as I understand the word.

They do want to believe.

Very much.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNMC19X9EXo

Mike Sigman
04-23-2010, 08:41 AM
I know that is is an old thread, but the "no touch throws" in this video are pertinent to the discussion. In particular the "uke"s are not fake as I understand the word.

They do want to believe.

Very much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNMC19X9EXo

I use the term "Wannabelieves" quite frequently. ;) A part-time magician friend of mine pointed out once that many of the martial arts are very prime candidates for wannabelieve and cult behavior: uniforms, authority figures you want to please, exotic words, ritualized behavior, fervent peer group pressure to conform, and so on. It's very true and things go out of whack very quickly in many dojos in many arts.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Aikibu
04-23-2010, 10:20 AM
I know that is is an old thread, but the "no touch throws" in this video are pertinent to the discussion. In particular the "uke"s are not fake as I understand the word.

They do want to believe.

Very much.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNMC19X9EXo

That guy is GOOD! LOL :)

William Hazen

Abasan
04-23-2010, 09:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related

Its in newcastle for you northern brits to try out. Aikido doesn't have a monopoly on fantastic bouncing uke's. Personally I would love to try him out because I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing even if a lot of people will say his students are exaggerating a bit.

Mike Sigman
04-23-2010, 09:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJr2BdUTYkU&feature=related

Its in newcastle for you northern brits to try out. Aikido doesn't have a monopoly on fantastic bouncing uke's. Personally I would love to try him out because I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing even if a lot of people will say his students are exaggerating a bit.Hmmmm... I've met this guy. Used to call himself Peter Young or Yang, etc. Wore sunglasses because he said if he didn't his qi power might overcome you, or some-such. Think he came to a workshop I did in Houston in the 1990's. Ask him if he's ever been to Houston.

What he's doing is proof of my theory of "Martial-arts instructors as filters; Schools as filters". Roughly speaking, my theory states that a school (or martial-art) takes in large numbers of people and spits out all but the ones who agree with the concepts that are sold to them (valid, invalid, or BS). I.e., over time, a school becomes full of people that 'believe' a particular line (although of course sometimes the line is actually invested in reality).

I would love to try that stuff out, too, Ahmad, although I wouldn't do a Dan Docherty and just walk in and dump water on the guy's head in order to see if he could stop the water with his qi.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

RED
04-23-2010, 09:52 PM
Nah, this is the real deal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

Mike Sigman
04-23-2010, 10:05 PM
Nah, this is the real deal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4

OMG Maggie... that one is so old that it's unbelievable. Back in the 90's I think. Reminds me of the old joke about a couple who was mugged by a Tai Chi gang: took 'em forty minutes to do it.

Mike

RED
04-23-2010, 10:12 PM
OMG Maggie... that one is so old that it's unbelievable. Back in the 90's I think. Reminds me of the old joke about a couple who was mugged by a Tai Chi gang: took 'em forty minutes to do it.

Mike

wakka wakka

Chicko Xerri
04-24-2010, 02:31 AM
With respect,

I've participated in Shihan's seminar quite recently and I would like to say that it has taught me a number of things. Perhaps not even a fifth of what Shihan wanted to share but at least some of those things I could comprehend with my limited ability and experience at that point in time.

To say that the no touch throws are technique would be a waste of breath. It really shouldn't be described as a throw really I would think. To me its more of a training methodology.

Gathering is one of the basic concepts imparted. Not pull or push, but bringing uke into yourself. Being one with him in mind, body and spirit. Uniting for one moment and then letting him go his way.

Shihan's aikido is soft but it is powerful. If of course you go to his class to oppose him, you will lose the opportunity to learn another aspect of aikido. The kokoro musubi aspect that you don't get anywhere else. Its too bad really, since he won't bother to train with you. Not because he can't 'throw' you. With more physical aiki and musubi I don't think you will be able to resist his throws.

Seriously though, if you like to have more physical aspects in your training go ahead and practice that way. Doesn't mean that you're wrong. And don't take at face value things you don't really understand from a cursory observation. Its really better to at least try to understand the meaning behind Shihan's method of training.

Regards. Very astute in you explaination and understanding Ahmad. You have a mind for Higher Level Aikido. For quite some time before his death O' Sensei often expressed no touch Aiki and Kokyu Nage. It is nothing new.