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dalen7
01-27-2009, 02:53 PM
I already have a thread here at aikiweb about Tenchinage...was about to put this in there, but seeing my issue is that this technique doesnt feel remotely similar to Tenchnage, I thought I would start a new thread.

1) Uke strikes using Yokomenuchi
2) Nage, for all intents an purposes, slides directly in front of uke and strikes attacking arm down.
(Doesnt feel like enough 'space' this way...suppose its just down to needing to practice it more.)
3) Then, the non attacking/blocking hand of Nage goes to the waist of Uke and you do kind of an ushiro Tenkan move...like your are turning around and tossing him. (Whats up with the toss...this is where I get stuck, and feels unrealistic...even with someone smaller.)

The move feels like a messed up iriminage.
No doubt my instructor knows how to do it - but Im not catching on to it...partly this is due to how I know Tenchinage is done with all the other moves. (as well as that toss...just wont work unless Uke falls on purpose.)

Below is how I see it would work...

1) It would seem that you would slide in and put your free arm up to ukes neck, as your defending arm strikes down ukes attacking arm.

2) Then you would step in behind uke and 'knock' them down.

Even that is not the typical position to do Tenchinage, though it did work when I tried it on uke - vs. the other one, if uke doesnt fall, it looks like two clowns who doesnt know what they are doing.

Anyway, this move is a bit frustrating, seeing I havent been able to find any other references on this, and I haven't been able to get any more insight, at the dojo, into how to truly get this technique to be executed.
(Right now it feels like a kokyu-nage, a move that uke just needs to go with, or there is no point in doing it...which I know there is more to it.) :)

Your take on Yokomenuchi Tenchinage?
Anyone have videos to point to - my Aikido 3D didnt have this technique either, unfortunately. (Time is ticking down as my test is coming up. Unfortunately we dont really practice Yokomenuchi much...go figure.) :)

Peace

dAlen

Carsten Möllering
01-28-2009, 06:55 AM
Your take on Yokomenuchi Tenchinage?
Anyone have videos to point to

Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=AbCPDogOfrg)

Carsten

sorokod
01-28-2009, 07:38 AM
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13.


Doesn't entering like this exposes the nage to uke's tsuki with the other (left) hand?

Carsten Möllering
01-28-2009, 08:01 AM
No, it works fine!

I can't describe it in english very well, but you control uke at his yokomen arm (there is a little kuzushi) and you yourself immediately fill the space between tori and uke with your second arm going directly in the direction of the chin of uke.
It really works.

Carsten

Erick Mead
01-28-2009, 08:09 AM
... this technique doesnt feel remotely similar to Tenchnage, I thought I would start a new thread.

1) Uke strikes using Yokomenuchi
2) Nage, for all intents an purposes, slides directly in front of uke and strikes attacking arm down.
(Doesnt feel like enough 'space' this way...suppose its just down to needing to practice it more.)
3) Then, the non attacking/blocking hand of Nage goes to the waist of Uke and you do kind of an ushiro Tenkan move...like your are turning around and tossing him. (Whats up with the toss...this is where I get stuck, and feels unrealistic...even with someone smaller.)

The move feels like a messed up iriminage.
No doubt my instructor knows how to do it - but Im not catching on to it...partly this is due to how I know Tenchinage is done with all the other moves. (as well as that toss...just wont work unless Uke falls on purpose.)

Below is how I see it would work...

1) It would seem that you would slide in and put your free arm up to ukes neck, as your defending arm strikes down ukes attacking arm.

2) Then you would step in behind uke and 'knock' them down.

... Unfortunately we dont really practice Yokomenuchi much...go figure.) :)

Let me address what is occurring in tenchi nage and maybe it will help with this -- which is harder to see because it does SEEM to take place in two parts. Actually, it is only one part, like a single wave but with a double peak. If you treat it like two whole pulses it will not work, and that is what I see in your problem.

Tenchi nage works by exploiting a whole body torquing shear -- which is vastly different from leverage or "cranking" a limb.

If I take ryotedori tenchnage on the left side and take it up at 45deg. and the right side and take it down 45 deg. that sets up a diagonal tension across uke's upper torso girdle. This does two things -- it creates a compensating compression in the opposed 45 degree diagonal, pinning weight on the low side leg, with a torsional shear.
That structural shear spirals around the whole body and effectively lifts weight off the leg on the tension spiral, and drops weight on the leg on the compression spiral. http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=509&d=1215185239

In yokomenuchi iriminage the emphasis on the attacking hand is not to strike it down, but to carry it up and then let it fall past while entering through it. It is a suriage -- in other words -- not a kiriotoshi, in sword terms. In this mode it creates the aikiage I described above, through the tension channel, and then the move connecting with the opposite hip (or with torso with an atemi, which is a permissible alternate), and cutting down the torso, or down onto the hip girdle or even a groin strike or extension past the inside of the opposing thigh -- further drives the tension channel axis into the throwing torque shear. The point is to effect that stretching or striking tension down and out along the same axis as the suriage going up and out. The throw just happens as you step through.

It is hard for uke to place the source of this structurally because he is being stretched and compressed in two different axes in one movement. Statically, any movement by nage is pivoting uke like a refrigerator poised on one corner. But dynamically, uke typically has begun by weighting the back foot to drive the attack, so lifting weight off it by shear in this way causes that weight-bearing extension of the leg to overactuate, driving uke off his own base. The throw is essentially trivial at that point.

There are nifty some reflex arcs that come into play to bypass uke's conscious control over what is happening if it is done in the correct rhythm (Google "Jendrassik maneuver trigger stepping" and see what you find. There much of interest on these points.)

dalen7
01-28-2009, 08:41 AM
Let me address what is occurring in tenchi nage and maybe it will help with this -- which is harder to see because it does SEEM to take place in two parts. Actually, it is only one part, like a single wave but with a double peak. If you treat it like two whole pulses it will not work, and that is what I see in your problem.

Let me just say, in response to all that you have written, that this is the type of knowledge/understanding I would like to have with Aikido.

You show a pretty grounded knowledge of what works and why with your Aikido...Im still waiting for it to click - though it is coming together piece by piece. :)

Thanks for the post.

dAlen

dalen7
01-28-2009, 08:48 AM
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=AbCPDogOfrg)

Carsten

Whoa...that is exactly what I tried to describe in my second description - of how I got it to work with my uke.

But...it is not, unfortunately the method I was shown, which is what I cant get to work.

hmmm...well, I will work with what I can get to work - and try to figure out the other method in the meantime.

Thanks for the link...

Peace

dAlen

Flintstone
01-28-2009, 08:51 AM
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=AbCPDogOfrg)

Carsten
Isn't that Irimi Nage??

dalen7
01-28-2009, 09:14 AM
Isn't that Irimi Nage??

Funny you say that...one guy said that was iriminage when I did it.
(Though the instructor showed something else for iriminage.)

But the way my instructor is showing me tenchinage, is more like an iriminage - at least to me, as there is definitely a turn in direction and hip shift.

Anyway, to be quite honest with you at this point in time - Im happy to find the aspects that work with me...and really not too concerned about the names. (Though some clarity would be nice, I realize there are many forms to some of the techniques.)

Peace

dAlen

John Matsushima
01-28-2009, 09:14 AM
Is it possible that you are confusing this technique with kata garuma?
To me, the one shown on the video does look more like irimi nage.

Demetrio Cereijo
01-28-2009, 09:30 AM
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=AbCPDogOfrg)

Carsten

Doesn't look tenchi to me (lacks heaven, imho), but if Tissier S. Says it is, then for your purposes it is.

dalen7
01-28-2009, 11:01 AM
Is it possible that you are confusing this technique with kata garuma?
To me, the one shown on the video does look more like irimi nage.

You know - it could be.
Im starting to think that certain techniques hold different names across dojos...and even ironically can get intermingled in the dojo itself.

Suppose I was always aware of the various naming differences - but never popped up like this before.

Oh well, I figure all is good...at least the one method does work, regardless the name. (Now for that awkward ushiro twist and toss version... lol )

Peace

dAlen

Voitokas
01-28-2009, 11:05 AM
I think I know which tenchinage you're describing, Dalen7 - does this sound like it?:

Uke attacks yokomen with his right hand. I enter with my right foot and engage uke's attacking arm with my left hand while my right gives an atemi to uke's face, drawing his left, usually, in defence (the standard 5th kyu yokomenuchi engagement). My left hand comes to my waist as I tenkan around beside uke on my left foot. My left "earth" hand sweeps downbehind uke's right leg as I step forward with my right leg, switch my hips, and throw uke. Uke's trailing hand may or may not keep kokyu, but the feeling of "heaven" is still there.

If this is the one you're having trouble with, I think the key points are:
a) the initial irimi and atemi to take uke's balance. The irimi is necessary to invade uke's sphere and the atemi is necessary to break their posture. Once you get really comfortable, the irimi itself can be almost an atemi, but it's always best to learn techniques using broad atemi as training wheels (because they're still there even when you don't see them!)
b) keeping a strong magnetic-feeling kokyu with your drawing "earth" hand - I think of it like leading a partner when you're waltzing
c) the "earth" hand should never come up. You are turning the initial yokomenuchi into the top of a lazy "S". The weight of the "earth" hand and their attention to the "heaven" hand keep uke unbalanced through the whole technique.

The throw itself is a lot like iriminage, in that one hand goes up while one goes down, there is some centripetal aspect to the throwing force, and uke falls the same way. Indeed, like in iriminage, your "heaven" arm should not clothesline uke, nor are you stepping all the way through to trip uke.

I hope this helps at all,
voitokas

dalen7
01-28-2009, 11:53 AM
I think I know which tenchinage you're describing, Dalen7 - does this sound like it?:

Uke attacks yokomen with his right hand. I enter with my right foot and engage uke's attacking arm with my left hand while my right gives an atemi to uke's face, drawing his left, usually, in defence (the standard 5th kyu yokomenuchi engagement). My left hand comes to my waist as I tenkan around beside uke on my left foot. My left "earth" hand sweeps downbehind uke's right leg as I step forward with my right leg, switch my hips, and throw uke. Uke's trailing hand may or may not keep kokyu, but the feeling of "heaven" is still there.

If this is the one you're having trouble with, I think the key points are:
a) the initial irimi and atemi to take uke's balance. The irimi is necessary to invade uke's sphere and the atemi is necessary to break their posture. Once you get really comfortable, the irimi itself can be almost an atemi, but it's always best to learn techniques using broad atemi as training wheels (because they're still there even when you don't see them!)
b) keeping a strong magnetic-feeling kokyu with your drawing "earth" hand - I think of it like leading a partner when you're waltzing
c) the "earth" hand should never come up. You are turning the initial yokomenuchi into the top of a lazy "S". The weight of the "earth" hand and their attention to the "heaven" hand keep uke unbalanced through the whole technique.

The throw itself is a lot like iriminage, in that one hand goes up while one goes down, there is some centripetal aspect to the throwing force, and uke falls the same way. Indeed, like in iriminage, your "heaven" arm should not clothesline uke, nor are you stepping all the way through to trip uke.

I hope this helps at all,
voitokas

Thanks for your time and reply.
For the most part it does sound very similar - and the part about not stepping all the way through to trip uke holds here, which is kind of the part that threw me at first.

Just got finished practicing the version in the video linked toward the beginning of this thread...but definitely want to get a better flow with the other one.

In a way, the hard part simply is this:
After the atemi, and as your turning to switch directions, the hand is actually on the Ukes waist and 'pushing' to toss/throw - vs. being in heaven position. (This is what confused me, as any resemblance to heaven and earth was kind of gone...no stepping behind uke with earth hand, and no hand up by the neck...instead by the waist and pushing as you turn to the opposite direction.)

An interesting note to add:
I just went back through my training video I made with my instructor a couple weeks ago. We did not have the time to go into detail through all the techniques for my kyu levels as I would have liked, and toward the end some were rushed.

I bring that up because Yokomenuchi was one of the techniques in the rush pile. We didnt go through the full technique.
Instead he showed that the entering was the same for all of them.
(A direct entry) and from there you executed the techniques as you would in any other position.

And in that, the direction for Tenchinage was the same as listed here by other members, and what you would expect.

However, in our last training class, when trying to prep for our test, he showed this other way to me and my uke - and that is where the confusion came in... (seeing I dont speak Hungarian, it was hard for me to clarify what was going on - and it confused my uke as he cant pull the technique off that way either.)

Anyway - I chalk it up to just one of those things.
Funky things happen when your not able to clearly communicate because of language. :)

Suppose a lot of this could have been averted, if we had practiced more of the requirements the past months. There are some techniques in our test that were barely touched upon at all. (Have to admit, I have been quite disappointed with this.)
It could be because at a certain lvl you can easily apply the base knowledge between techniques and forget its not quite the same way in the beginning stages. :)

Either way, I have enjoyed and appreciated the responses, and learned from them.

Peace

dAlen

Carsten Möllering
01-29-2009, 04:51 AM
Carsten Möllering wrote: View Post
Our way of doing yokomen uchi tenchi nage is shown here at sec 13.
Doesn't look tenchi to me (lacks heaven, imho), but if Tissier S. Says it is, then for your purposes it is.
In our nomenclature for irimi nage you have to step into the blind angle or blind spot of uke (shikaku 死角 ).
That means you place yourself behind uke. And on the outside of ukes arm.

(Some people say that would be an entry or a position which was originally invented by O Sensei. I don't know wether that's true.)

From that point you can throw directly (omote) or you can cut down uke and throw him when he comes up again (ura).

Compare this video of irimi nage. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=3nKzDCjNpkY)

To do tenchi nage you have to place yourself in front of uke and on the inside of ukes arm.
You can see the different position very clearly here. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWJiu3YWAg)

Now let uke raise his earth-hand (yokomen) and move nages contact from the wrist to the inner side of the elbow. et voilà: You've got the form of tenchi nage shown in the above video.

That's how we distinguish irimi nage and tenchi nage: It's not the throwing movement of the arm but our positioning in relation to uke.

Carsten

dalen7
01-29-2009, 06:18 AM
Compare this video of irimi nage. (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=3nKzDCjNpkY)

That's how we distinguish irimi nage and tenchi nage: It's not the throwing movement of the arm but our positioning in relation to uke.

Carsten

I agree with the above as far as making a distinction between the two. Only if there were more of a consistency in the usage of terminology, not only between dojos...but within the dojo itself between students - at least the higher ranks. ;)

As far as irminage - check out this piece of Steven Seagal - looks more like some wrestling move...no blending at all, just pure force forward and down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJm8yDnYoRQ&feature=related

Peace

dAlen

Erick Mead
01-29-2009, 08:04 AM
In our nomenclature for irimi nage you have to step into the blind angle or blind spot of uke (shikaku 死角 ).
That means you place yourself behind uke. And on the outside of ukes arm. ... That's how we distinguish irimi nage and tenchi nage: It's not the throwing movement of the arm but our positioning in relation to uke. I dunno about that as the distinction, exactly. Iriminage works perfectly well inside of the arm, the entry just has to be keenly aware of attaining immediate kuzushi because the opposing arm and leg are able to initiate a second attack, if not.

Likewise, a crosshand grab can be turned into a tenchi nage outside the arm if he grabs or blocks nage's atemi to the face, and then you ARE outside the arm, and the tenchinage proceeds. Some might call this a kokyu nage, but there is a distinction my book, even though the position is the same. Kokyu nage raises the whole structure inhaling and drops through him with whole structure the cycle of breath exhaling in a full circular spiral. Tenchinage is splinching him (for the Harry Potter fans)

To put it in more colorful terms -- in kokyunage you gather him up and then collapse him -- in irminage you cut him open and walk through him -- and in tenchi nage you splay him and he splats. What is happening to uke's structure is the distinction.

Carsten Möllering
01-29-2009, 08:33 AM
I'm very sorry but I only get the half of your statement. (If it is a half at all ...)

a crosshand grabDo you refer to ai hanmi or kosa dori?

there is a distinction my bookTo which book do you refer?

Tenchinage is splinching him (for the Harry Potter fans) My dicitionaries don't know "to splinch".

in tenchi nage you splay him and he splats. What my dictionaries give me for "splay" and "splat" doesn't make sense here in my opinion.

Can you help me?

The way you describe irimi nage - to open and walk through - is our description of doing tenchi nage.

Carsten

Erick Mead
01-29-2009, 11:09 AM
I'm very sorry but I only get the half of your statement. (If it is a half at all ...)

Do you refer to ai hanmi or kosa dori? Kosa dori. the step is to the outside of the grabbing hand and the atemi is to the face with the free hand -- if he fails to lock or grab it, the atemi progrewsses through a sokumen iriminage, -- if he does grab it or block it, it can be either kokyunage or tenchinage, depending on whether you "splinch" (see below) him in place (tenchi nage) -- or roll him over himself (kokyunage)

To which book do you refer? The metaphorical one existing only in my addled brain... apologies -- English is not as concrete in its references as German -- or so I'm told by my cousin who is living there. My favorite definition of English is: "Bad German, spoken by Welshmen, with a Latin inferiority complex."

My dicitionaries don't know "to splinch". I know, neither do mine, and they are in English, but it is a wonderful word invented by Ms. Rowling. Splinching, or the separation of random body parts, occurs when the mind is insufficiently determined. You must concentrate continually upon your destination, and move, without haste, but with deliberation… Basically that captures the image of tenchinage for me -- the body suddenly disarticulates into loose parts -- structurally speaking, of course. [For our German friends -- swords are, of course, necessary for the more concrete forms of bodily separation ... :D ]

What my dictionaries give me for "splay" and "splat" doesn't make sense here in my opinion.As I said they were "colorful" and "color" is notoriously hard to translate -- and I couldn't do German if my life depended in it.

My dictionary refers to "splay as "To spread (the limbs, for example) out or apart, especially clumsily." "Splay" in this context means to widely spread the structural elements of support, creating an open hinge so that it buckles and collapses -- "splat." When I do tenchinage properly, my uke typically feels this "hole" open up under and in front of them (or in the kosa variant above, under and behind) -- they teeter on the brink of it, and I simply lead them over and into it.

Can you help me? That remains to be seen. Let me know if it does. :)

Carsten Möllering
01-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Well, it does very well.

Carsten

Flintstone
01-30-2009, 03:56 AM
Thank you Erik. Pretty solid argument.

dalen7
01-30-2009, 12:47 PM
Got a bit of clarification today...it appears that the pivot and toss version is for when you enter late.

Either way, both versions seem to be acceptable for Tenchinage as far as our test is concerned.

I got a better feel for the toss version, properly executing it seems a bit hard - but it makes for a nice quick get away to recoup or get out of there. :)

Peace

dAlen

p.s.
I will add, the terminology is still a bit tricky.
It appears if you enter and push the head back this is iriminage vs. entering and throwing your arm up in heaven position, which is Tenchinage.

For all intents and purposes, the only difference is you lower your hand to push the face, vs. having it outstretched. I would have thought this would just be a play off of Tenchinage, but then again, its easy to get lost in words...the point is - does it work? If so, the terminology is secondary...at most. ;)

Ron Tisdale
01-30-2009, 02:49 PM
Ah, shomen tsuki...old favorite. Tenchinage with uke's face! :D

B,
R

Flintstone
01-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Ah, shomen tsuki...old favorite. Tenchinage with uke's face! :D

B,
R
See? I would call that shomen ate ;)

dalen7
01-31-2009, 07:48 AM
Ah, shomen tsuki...old favorite. Tenchinage with uke's face! :D

B,
R

Yes, actually quite effective and easier to pull off. :D

...I would call that shomen ate ;)

I like that one. :D

Peace

dAlen

Lyle Laizure
01-31-2009, 09:01 PM
Isn't it funny how the names we give techniques change or mean different physical movements depending on the dojo/organization/region we are in. Keeps us on our toes, or our bottoms depending on the technique.

dalen7
02-01-2009, 10:39 AM
Isn't it funny how the names we give techniques change or mean different physical movements depending on the dojo/organization/region we are in. Keeps us on our toes, or our bottoms depending on the technique.

Totally been thinking about the same thing.
Maybe its time we ignore the japanese words and just learn the techniques according to our own language. (After all, thats what the Japanese do. :D

Wrist throw, hip throw, etc. :)

the point is the technique, and learning the name of it in another language is an extra headache. :D
- Take it lightly guys, I know thats part of the fun for most people, learning the names, etc. - makes it more mystical. ;)
But again, dont see japanese worrying about that part - "oh wrist turn, at least I know the general idea of the technique about to be executed." :D

Flintstone
02-01-2009, 02:00 PM
Totally been thinking about the same thing.
Maybe its time we ignore the japanese words and just learn the techniques according to our own language. (After all, thats what the Japanese do. :D

Wrist throw, hip throw, etc. :)

the point is the technique, and learning the name of it in another language is an extra headache. :D
- Take it lightly guys, I know thats part of the fun for most people, learning the names, etc. - makes it more mystical. ;)
But again, dont see japanese worrying about that part - "oh wrist turn, at least I know the general idea of the technique about to be executed." :D
Guess you'll have problems with "returning the tree leaf", "hand mirror throw", "heaven and earth throw", "aiki drop", "boulder drop", "eighth light grip" and others... :D

Erick Mead
02-01-2009, 09:24 PM
Totally been thinking about the same thing.
Maybe its time we ignore the japanese words and just learn the techniques according to our own language. (After all, thats what the Japanese do. :D

Wrist throw, hip throw, etc. :)

the point is the technique, and learning the name of it in another language is an extra headache. :D
- Take it lightly guys, I know thats part of the fun for most people, learning the names, etc. - makes it more mystical. ;)
But again, dont see japanese worrying about that part - "oh wrist turn, at least I know the general idea of the technique about to be executed." :DActually, on this point the Japanese names serve a purpose -- in non-Japanese tongues they are names, not descriptives -- and names are most often descriptives that have lost that function and gained a new one -- unless "Johnson" really means one is the "son of John" and Dalen means one is or relates to the "great tide."

Names are place holders for fundamentally irreducible things like a person or a principle. In Aikido outside of Japan, the techniques themselves stand as narrow exemplars of broader, deeper principles -- the fact that we wrestle with the essence of the thing named, rather than simply assuming the validity of a bare nominal description, is actually pretty helpful. We do not allow the naked descriptive boundary to interfere with grasping the commonality of principles across those boundaries, so that we can concentrate on other indigenous interferences and impediments. How those names function in Japan is another subject.

dalen7
02-02-2009, 01:16 AM
unless "Johnson" really means one is the "son of John" and Dalen means one is or relates to the "great tide."

Your close to it...
My great-grandfather who immigrated from Norway was John.
:)
(As far as Norwegian naming conventions back then, he was a farmer, so probably picked the name up from the farm he worked on. I dont know as I cant find that much info out.)

Dalen, on the other hand, (a name passed down from his son to mine), has the meaning "dum spiro spero", while I have breathe I have have hope.

But your point is taken about the changing meaning of names. :)

My little chat was really much lighter, wasnt trying to convince anyone of anything... :)
For some, like myself, who is learning in a language not there own - (Hungarian) having to add in there more terminology is just another hassle...in my eyes... ;)

Truth be told, mirror hand wrist turn, etc., says more than enough.
Migi (right), Hidri, (left), just basic things.

Again, its not an argument over if Im right...what I feel for me is right - and for you, what you feel is. We all function differently. :D

Peace

dAlen

dalen7
02-02-2009, 01:54 AM
Well, back to Yokomenuchi Tenchinage,

I had my exam yesterday...(many hours of daily practice went into preparing for this - along with silly questions here...so thanks.) ;)

Interestingly enough, I was matched with an uke not from my dojo.
(All my test have been that way, ironically enough.)

This uke did Yokomenuchi Tenchinage like how has been discussed here and shown on links...well sort of. It was more like a fast 'clothesline' wrestling move.

He was about a head taller and had a lot more weight to his advantage - and quite honestly it hurt when he delivered the technique.
(The disadvantage of testing with people you have never trained with, that also are are disproportionally larger than you are - while both being still at a lower lvl with techniques needing to be honed.)

Anyway, that wasnt the point... :)
The point is that the other technique, the spin & turn then toss would not have worked with this dude at all. He would not have known what I was doing and would havent taken ukemi...

...which brings up the point of the necessity to figure out the best techniques in the best situations - as its nice to flow and have a good uke, but if a technique doesnt really work in a given situation - you must know this and adapt.

Anyway, the story of Tenchinage Yokomenuchi is put to a rest.
At least as far as the original question. My goal now is to become better at it so that I do not 'clothesline' someone.

Sometimes its easier to forget your strength when your larger than someone...your moderate pace and push, might be to much for another. ;)

Peace

dAlen

Flintstone
02-02-2009, 02:21 AM
Congratulations on your test, since I assume you passed!!
The point is that the other technique, the spin & turn then toss would not have worked with this dude at all. He would not have known what I was doing and would havent taken ukemi...
Well... if it had not worked... then the execution is not that right. It's not the technique, but how well can you perform it. If you mean tenchinage ura then, man it works very good with big ukes indeed!

Again, congrats, and keep working ;).

dalen7
02-02-2009, 04:10 AM
Congratulations on your test, since I assume you passed!!

Well... if it had not worked... then the execution is not that right. It's not the technique, but how well can you perform it. If you mean tenchinage ura then, man it works very good with big ukes indeed!

Again, congrats, and keep working ;).

Yes, I did pass - thanks for the congrats. :)

My head is still spinning from all of this:
(I went into intense training mode at home the past couple of weeks to prep for the test.)

I've said it before, and I suppose Ill say it again - but every time I think I have the basics of one technique 'mastered', I realize there is still a whole new dynamic of it to be learned in order for it to be effective in various situations.

Suppose nothing brings this out clearer than training/testing with a new 'uke', like at seminar when you can really see what is working - when is it working - and why does it work in the situations it does.

Got some good insight from other Aikidoka in the training before the test.

Well - time to prep for the next test. ;)
(A little less 'cramming' this time...)

Peace

dAlen

Carsten Möllering
02-03-2009, 05:49 AM
Hi,

Likewise, a crosshand grab can be turned into a tenchi nage outside the arm if he grabs or blocks nage's atemi to the face, Hm, I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a tenchi nage by beeing held in kosa dori and delivering atemi with my free hand. If uke blocks/grabs this atemi with his free hand while holding on my other hand, how will this become tenchi nage?
But: I never tried this.
And: Anyway I am in front of uke.

Iriminage works perfectly well inside of the arm, ... you ARE outside the arm, and the tenchinage proceeds.
Sure it works. Don't focus on the arm alone:

For tenchi nage you stay in front of uke (http://www.shoshin-hamburg.de/aikido_video_shiho_tenchi_soto_kaiten.html), for iriminage you enter behind him (http://www.shoshin-hamburg.de/aikido_video_irimi_kotegaeshi_kokyu.html).

The throwing movement and the throwing direction in irimi nage or tenchi nage are the same to my understanding.
But can you do irimi nage without enterin in ukes blind spot behind him? Or can you do tenchi nage from there?

What is happening to uke's structure is the distinction.

I think the three ways you describe the dinstinction between kokyu nage, irimi nage and tenchi nage can all be applied in each technique, in tenchi nage aswell as in irimi nage:

you gather him up and then collapse him We have versions of tenchi nage and irimi nage which do that. But in our irimi nage this is more basic.

you cut him open and walk through him This are nearly exactly the words in which our basic tenchi nage is described.
But you can do it in iriminage aswell.

you splay him and he splats. This can be used agaiin in both: irimi and tenchi nage. But for both of them we don't use this structure.

@ dalen:
Congratulations!

And you are wright: The learning never ends.

Carsten

Flintstone
02-03-2009, 05:58 AM
The throwing movement and the throwing direction in irimi nage or tenchi nage are the same to my understanding.
But can you do irimi nage without enterin in ukes blind spot behind him? Or can you do tenchi nage from there?
Sure ;).

Carsten Möllering
02-03-2009, 07:02 AM
Sure ;).

Ok then.
The distinction proposed by Ercik (by ukes structure) doesn't work either because you (or we) can work the same technique in very different ways.

So there's no distinction between both of them?

Interesting!

Carsten

Flintstone
02-03-2009, 08:10 AM
Ok then.
The distinction proposed by Ercik (by ukes structure) doesn't work either because you (or we) can work the same technique in very different ways.

So there's no distinction between both of them?

Interesting!
Uhh! I think I missquoted. Yes, the distinction Erick did does make a lot of sense. Collapsing uke is not the same as entering though him, even when it can look similar to the lego.

Carsten Möllering
02-03-2009, 08:41 AM
Uhh! I think I missquoted. Yes, the distinction Erick did does make a lot of sense. Collapsing uke is not the same as entering though him, even when it can look similar to the lego.
You are right: It is not the same and normaly doesn't look the same.
But can't we do tenchi nage in very different ways?
Can't we do irimi nage in different ways?

(In brackets our use of the possibillities)

You can throw uke by just delivering atemi straight to the face. (used in ten chi and irimi nage, but not as basic form nowadays. When I began this was basic.)

You can throw uke by "lifting" him up, directing his ki to the sky until he comes down by himself. (more often used in irimi nage, but also possible in tenchi nage)

You can throw uke, by opening him with kuzushi and then going right through him. (more often used in tenchi nage than in irimi nage)

You can throw uke by directing him using his neck and the side of the head. (used in tenchi nage and in irimi nage)

You can throw uke by "blocking / stopping" his head/chest and accelerate (?) his hips (so he "runs" through under your arm and comes down on his back.)
(possible in tenchi nage but in fact only used in irimi nage)

These are different ways to apply the same technique(s). The structure of uke is very different in each way, but it's the same technique.

Maybe I totally misunderstand you and Erick?

Carsten

Erick Mead
02-03-2009, 11:35 AM
Hm, I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a tenchi nage by beeing held in kosa dori and delivering atemi with my free hand. If uke blocks/grabs this atemi with his free hand while holding on my other hand, how will this become tenchi nage?
But: I never tried this.
And: Anyway I am in front of uke. I'll diagram it for you.

Uke grabs kosa to the right hand.

Nage advances slightly on the right foot and pviots the left foot to uke's right side maintaining neutral connection on the right hand now facing about 90 deg to uke's front. (IOW -- not a full sokumen step, ans the right foot stays for the moment)

The left hand rises up toward uke's face as the step is performed,

Uke blocks or grabs the striking arm with the left hand.

This is natural because nage's pivoting step entry with the hand neutral induces uke into kuzushi forward with slight turn to the right, and he very often is in the process of striking with the left hand already as he is trying to step around to regain his balance. If this does not occur the entyr is wrong -- kuzushi must be had at the first movement of contact -- the eventual tenchi simply reverses the kuzushi taking advantage of his attempted recovery.

So at his point nage is connected to both sides of uke's body and is off to his right side, feet at shoulder width or so (Hachiji-dachi) with uke's balance slightly broken slightly forward and now turning right. Nage's left hand is in uke's face slightly above shoulder level -- the right hand is at about waist level.

Drop the hara, as the lower and upper hands extend into tenchi (pay attention to the spiral of the arms -- it has very powerful effect from this position) Then you may throw by stepping out slightly to his front (omote) or rear (ura) and then simply pivoting on that leg.

If he turns away from you instead of toward you to strike this dictates a step to his front and pivot for the throw and vice versa if he turns further toward to pursue his strike you step to his rear and pivot on that leg -- and if he stalls in the tenchi kuzushi you can go either way.

Of course, if he is more on the ball and aggressive in his follow on strike from the initial entry nage simply goes with and slips the punch using his own striking arm to carry uke's striking arm through and around, and bringing up uke's grabbing arm into the juji-garame. :D

If you step through him more directly in the throw, you can drop him over your hip in more of an aiki-otoshi or koshinage (depending on whether you press the front or back hip into connection in the movement -- which is also what you could do if you are not able to get your striking hand over his grabbing arm into the shomen ate - or men-tsuki (as you prefer) in the first place.

Hope it helps.

Erick Mead
02-03-2009, 12:22 PM
You are right: It is not the same and normaly doesn't look the same.
But can't we do tenchi nage in very different ways?
Can't we do irimi nage in different ways?

(In brackets our use of the possibillities)
...
You can throw uke by "blocking / stopping" his head/chest and accelerate (?) his hips (so he "runs" through under your arm and comes down on his back.)
(possible in tenchi nage but in fact only used in irimi nage)

These are different ways to apply the same technique(s). The structure of uke is very different in each way, but it's the same technique.

Maybe I totally misunderstand you and Erick?

CarstenNope. I think we grok. Been there, done that. [Non-English-speaking Geek Alert: "Grok." like "splinch" is a literary invention, in this case of Robert Heinlein, from the Martian, meaning "... to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed". End Geek Alert ]

The last example you gave requires very strong kokyu ho if you start from a static position. Beginners have a very hard time using kokyu to snatch uke off his base without so much movement on their part -- but it is spectacular when they do it and the dawn of comprehension breaks through the clouds of frustration.

Tenchi is the principle of dividing left and right into up and down such that no matter which of those he tries to resist or flee from he creates potential rotation. Splinched. Another kokyu ho arranges support for one side and not the other, such that when uke moves off of or is lifted off his support he swings into an unavoidable rotation, which is joined with and added to. Another kokyu ho displaces him in torque left to right and right to left, leaving neither side adequately supported, forcing a fall or a choice of support, which then creates an inevitable torquing rotation -- again joined with and added to. Another draws all of uke lofting into a single point of support, unloading him, buckling him off that support in tension (aiki-age) snapping him out like a cut tension wire -- another drives uke into a single point of support and loading him up -- buckling him off that support in compression (aiki sage) popping him out like a sprung pole.

One uses those kokyu manipulations to eliminate structural stability directly (Ki of Earth, using chi no kokyu where breath drives action) -- or exploits the reflexive compensations after inducing the structural changes to do so indirectly (Ki of Heaven, using ten no kokyu where action drives breath). This is one way to more concretely understand those sometimes abstract terms (there are others).

dalen7
02-03-2009, 02:30 PM
@ dalen:
Congratulations!

And you are wright: The learning never ends.

Carsten

Thanks... :D

- dalen